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31
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 8:43am
Subject: Re: Re: Some initial thoughts
idojc
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Kevin:

>Thank you for clarifying this important point. I now realize that as a
>reader of an unfamiliar language, I want to be able to see the structure
>of the sentence whether or not I know all the words. Then, from context,
>I can guess at the meanings.

I think that as a requirement this has limited validity in our case, because
we are aiming at a global audience, and only a limited part of that audience
will be able to guess at the meanings of words, whether they can determine
the sentence structure or not. What is most important is to design the
syntax as unambiguously as possible, in terms of the way the principal word
orders and things like relatives fit together, so that there is never any
possibility of confusion as to which verb a noun is the subject/object of,
etc. Where possible we will provide particles to clarify the structure, but
what I dont want to get into is particles which purely announce a noun or
verb phrase, as if it were Esp with its -o, -i etc., or Fr. with its
ubiquitous article.

>I find it unreasonable to expect someone learning a language to have
>already memorized all 500 or 5000 words in the language. So requiring
>them to already know (or look up) every word just to figure out where
>the verb is seems like too much of a burden.

I agree, but that is not the way people learn languages. You dont learn the
whole vocab, or a large chunk of it before ever looking at a complete
sentence. You start with a bit of basic vocab, then build some simple
phrases, and slowly work up to full sentences, picking up new vocab as you
go. At least, that is the way i have always learnt languages.

>I'm not sure how "creoles" use them, but I fear that if they are too
>optional, it will be difficult to parse. But I'll wait for more concrete
>rules and examples before I lose hope.

Creoles, unlike pidgins (and this is a very important point!), have both
articles and TMA particles. More precisely, they prototypicly have exactly
one of each verbal particle, and two articles. The unmarked form of the
noun is nonspecific; the unmarked form of the verb is past tense,
[-nonpunctual], [-irrealis]. This may seem odd, but it is actually handy
when recounting a story not to have to mark each verb. Creole tense tends
to work in an anterior/posterior, shift-backwards/shift-forwards way, so
that you only need to mark tense when the time of the narrative changes, eg.
moving from past back to pluperfect, or forward to the present. This
'relative' marking is more efficient, if you think about it, than 'absolute'
marking in connected speech.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=M5FyXDpc24UzYotTdXjaKHDOX0nGp26DymRFhOESs2getVdHpEQWyWmVVqwWUt35ZdS4FmqlTsjdzXQ
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32
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 9:04am
Subject: Re: Target Group & Vocabulary Size
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Kevin:

>I'm not sure if that's compatible with where this group is going, but I
>thought I'd share my thoughts.

A basic vocabulary is by no means _incompatible_ with what we are trying to
do here. Remember, the only two things that are assumed are the ones stated
at the group homepage: European vocab and isolating grammar. Everything
else is wide open for discussion.

What i would say is, i would not want to cut corners on precision of vocab
or syntax just to limit the necessary vocab to, say, 1000 words. I think it
is highly likely that we will end up with 1000 words/particles which are
sufficient for most purposes, but i would not want to forgo alternative,
precise words alongside them. For example, we will need an 'opposite'
particle, probably 'des':

des agreable - disagreable
des konkorda - disagree

so that you could say:

des bon - bad
des felise - sad

but then i would want to have also:

male - bad
triste - sad

The former could be part of the Basic vocab, the latter part of the extended
vocab. I would just ask, please dont fence me in!

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=Nc1cMHEB30JOntJ0mzSf-hRri32kMuHswWuIChkrtTh6fIXvGsTffYUnN1yk66eUse79hGMcS1Q9
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33
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 10:52am
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
nick_hempshall
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James Chandler <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=mzRggQ8llPTwVcbnr11GgyBD3FKRtwosPaAYmx-ahADy2r1tDDrYOturEuiRXgrxqB0F-7aSnAxd> wrote:
> Yes, we could use the copula for existentials, eg.
>
> Es tri kos ti mi non prisa kel - There are three
> things I dont like
>
> But part of the creole prototype is that the verb
> 'have' tends to be used
> for existentials:
>
> Ave tri kos ti mi non prisa kel

Yes. That seems fine.



> >casa di om a houseful of people
>
> I would have thought the adj 'plen' could be used
> for the Eng suffix -ful
> (Ido -edo):

I was thinking about a preposition whose function is
to show a quantity relationship.

> kasa plen de om - a houseful of people

Is “plen” an adjective/stative verb?
?? = A house is full of people


?? Kasa ti plena de om ti es lo de danjer.
= A house which is full of people is a dangerous
place. ??


> Mikro sta plora infante pro fala in li luda
> loka
> Small Asp cry infant because-of fall in Art play
> place

I have two difficulties with this.

The “sta” makes me think someone called “Mikro” is
crying.

The “infante” breaks the flow from “cry” to “because
of”. “Cry” is the word “because of” is explaining.

Nick

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34
From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@smart.net>
Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 0:42pm
Subject: Re: Target Group & Vocabulary Size
bartlett@smart.net
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On Thu, 19 Sep 2002, James Chandler wrote:

> [...]

> We dont want to get into the whole Tok Pisin
> 'face grass' for 'beard' business.

Ummmmmm, why not? Seems perfectly legitimate to me.

--
Paul Bartlett
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=lw-Gfm5wuk-rshMmoe-2apOmsUTNevZf1UuLCbJbI8qM12f0R8AG6PyW1dxLyLQKSzcxUTkFXPP3BIRsIQ
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35
From: Kevin Smith <yahoogroups@qualitycode.com>
Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:24pm
Subject: Re: Re: Some initial thoughts
kevinbsmith
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On Thu, 2002-09-19 at 08:43, James Chandler wrote:
> >I find it unreasonable to expect someone learning a language to have
> >already memorized all 500 or 5000 words in the language. So requiring
> >them to already know (or look up) every word just to figure out where
> >the verb is seems like too much of a burden.
>
> I agree, but that is not the way people learn languages. You dont learn the
> whole vocab, or a large chunk of it before ever looking at a complete
> sentence. You start with a bit of basic vocab, then build some simple
> phrases, and slowly work up to full sentences, picking up new vocab as you
> go. At least, that is the way i have always learnt languages.

This comment made me realize another one of my language goals. I am
really looking for a language that one can read without having learnt
it. That is, I would like to be able to write an article in a language,
and have most English and Romance speakers be able to roughly figure out
what I'm talking about without looking anything up.

This is one important reason why I am attracted to isolating languages:
because you KNOW the root immediately, rather than having to figure out
out by stripping off inflections.

After spending ten minutes learning the very basic rules (word order,
pronouns, articles), someone should have a very good idea what the
article says. They could look up those few roots that aren't obvious by
context.

I'm much more interesting in publishing information than I am in
one-to-one conversations. I want to be able to write one web page, and
have as many people as possible be able to read it (without using a
translator like google, of course).

I guess I don't expect people to learn a whole new language just for
some quick communication. I would think they would want to learn just
enough to accomplish a specific task, or set of tasks.

Thanks for helping me better understand my own aims,

Kevin
36
From: Kevin Smith <yahoogroups@qualitycode.com>
Date: Thu Sep 19, 2002 7:26pm
Subject: Re: Target Group & Vocabulary Size
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On Thu, 2002-09-19 at 12:42, Paul O. BARTLETT wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Sep 2002, James Chandler wrote:
> > We dont want to get into the whole Tok Pisin
> > 'face grass' for 'beard' business.
>
> Ummmmmm, why not? Seems perfectly legitimate to me.

I have no problem with "face hair". I don't like "face grass" because it
relies on a metaphor that might not be obvious.

Kevin
37
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 1:35am
Subject: Re: Copula and the fundamental break
idojc
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Nick:

>I visited the tall person who lives in this house.
>Me pa visita li ce abita in ta casa ti alta om.
>
>I still think that is better than ANR.

With ANR order, this is:

Mi pa visita li alti om ki kel abita in ta ci kasa

(I now think that ki...kel would be better for relatives).

Or we could delete the ki kel, as they are contiguous, and move the relative
before the noun:

Mi pa visita li alti abita in ta ci kasa om

This is not ARN order, because it no longer contains a relative clause, only
a VP [abita in ta ci kasa].

>Isn’t Chinese RAN ordered?

Yes, and it (Mandarin) uses the particle 'de' between R and A, and between A
and N.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=tukAKyzfHTXEDdzRGfJzEOgOAwIy1PhVFjMRZVzjiar_EM0RSLLqKx-ht-k1m_rSEGdetQf2MM0
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38
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:15am
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
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Nick:

> > kasa plen de om - a houseful of people
>
>Is “plen” an adjective/stative verb?
>?? = A house is full of people

I think you're right: this would be potentially ambiguous. I just thought
we might be able to make use of the root 'full' rather than use a separate
particle. But perhaps it would be clearer semanticly to have a separate
particle: once three spoonfuls of sugar have been tipped into the mixing
bowl, there is not much of the sense of 'full' left. You might as well say
'three spoons worth of sugar'. For now i dont have any ideas about the form
of such a particle (unless we just take the Ido-Nov suffix 'edo' or 'ede').

> > Mikro sta plora infante pro fala in li luda
> > loka
> > Small Asp cry infant because-of fall in Art play
> > place
>
>I have two difficulties with this.
>
>The “sta” makes me think someone called “Mikro” is
>crying.

I think this comes back to Kevins idea that the sentence structure should
stand out even to someone who is ignorant of the sense of the words. As i
have said, i dont see a great deal of point in this, since without knowing
the meanings of the word, you wont be able to understand the sentence
anyway. What is most important is that there is no real risk of ambiguity
here, since a stative verb such as 'mikro' cannot be the subject of a VP.

>The “infante” breaks the flow from “cry” to “because
>of”. “Cry” is the word “because of” is explaining.

Now this objection i have more sympathy with, as i also felt the above
sentence to be slightly awkward. The best way to resolve this is to use a
full relative clause:

mikro infante ki kel sta plora pro fala in li luda lo
small infant Br Rel Asp cry because-of fall in Art play Loc

As usual, the contiguous 'ki kel' can be deleted, and the relative VP moved
before the noun:

mikro sta plora pro fala in li luda lo infante

but this is perhaps not so advisable in this case due to the length of the
VP.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=OiSkeqB7ibX9GkMtQqABa5tJkb6F6YXCb1uHW_Q401V0M65Q17VdNsGFh7ExOPgYNthF1B0btA
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39
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 3:18am
Subject: Re: Target Group & Vocabulary Size
idojc
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Paul:

> > We dont want to get into the whole Tok
>Pisin
> > 'face grass' for 'beard' business.
>
>Ummmmmm, why not? Seems perfectly legitimate to me.

Tok Pisin 'gras bilong fes' is an example of what creolists call
'diagrammatic iconicity'. The idea is that there is a diagrammatic
relationship between the two phenomena, which leads to one being used as the
basis for reference to the other: facial hair growing out of the face is
formally comparable to grass growing out of the ground.

The problem i have with this is, if we actually try to incorporate it as a
design feature, then where does the process end? We could end up with a
handful of words for basic phenomena (eg. grass), and have the rest of the
language built up on them. The consequences for precision would be drastic.
I think it is best not to start down this path.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=ymzFTaxvZUnu8mZW5m_GPgT55VynmSiaHxqCDVhtE-oX7aHhvpZldXTthQRrUwe8mv3SGoGyJZJDxA
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40
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 6:26am
Subject: Re: Re: Some initial thoughts
idojc
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Kevin:

>This is one important reason why I am attracted to isolating languages:
>because you KNOW the root immediately, rather than having to figure out
>out by stripping off inflections.

This is one of the great advantages of isolating grammar, that we are free
to choose the most natural, widely-known forms without needing to distort
them in any way to fit into a morphological pattern, and at the same time
the reader is able see each word separately, always in the same invariable
form. This means we can make the language even more at-sight readable than
a language like Occ, while at the same time drastically simplifying the
grammar.

In all the examples i give, i am trying to select the most international,
recognizable forms that are known to me. If anyone can see words in the
examples that could be made more recognizable, please say so.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=suMCsQOQkOvrxWJnVWq9EKxrPaorFaoksFR4eu6L8rpV8iij77LayjnMjI0CPQSpfvn-o7ix4g
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41
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 8:15am
Subject: Passives and participle equivalents
idojc
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We will want a regular passive construction, for which we will need a
passive particle. Let us, for the sake of example, take the LsF and Late
Novial form 'fi' (< ClasLat). This gives us the passive of becoming
construction (Esp -ata):

Li fem pa bata li kane
The woman beat the dog

Li kane pa fi bata da li fem
The dog was beaten by the woman

For the passive of being (Esp -ita) we can combine the past and passive
particles:

Historie ja pa fi skriba
History already Tns Pass write
'History is already written'

Thus in an isolating grammar, a passive particle can take the place of all
the passive participles (Esp -ita, -ata, -ota).

Parallel to this, the Aspect marker 'sta' can do the work of all the active
participles (Esp -inta, -anta, -onta):

Li sta kursa puere
The running man

Li pa sta presida ofisire
The presiding officer (the officer who was presiding)

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=iH4tLNifoTsDuLj3ufSiY-ps8upCYlBWTGC7m7bAbgarlsPVom6ZVijoHGS5Kk_s2kDfOfHTdqLf
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42
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 8:42am
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
nick_hempshall
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James Chandler <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=favMNZ7iD-4y9OGsGTBKaG1UfSKe6YeTx-_FdoAGnaUlZuwYlMQpXZFlL9bbjgXJQ6XefVydpcQs> wrote:
> > > Mikro sta plora infante pro fala in li
> > > luda loka
> > > Small Asp cry infant because-of fall in Art
> > > play place
> mikro sta plora pro fala in li luda lo infante

I have question about the detail of these examples.

I guess the "fala" is in the is the verb/adjective, so
doesn't it need another noun after it?

The "sta" is showing that the crying is an extended
process. Right? So what would the phrase mean without
it?

Nick


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43
From: "Paul O. BARTLETT" <bartlett@smart.net>
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:41pm
Subject: Re: Target Group & Vocabulary Size
bartlett@smart.net
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On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, James Chandler wrote:

> Paul:
>
> > > We dont want to get into the whole Tok Pisin
> > > 'face grass' for 'beard' business.
> >
> >Ummmmmm, why not? Seems perfectly legitimate to me.
>
> Tok Pisin 'gras bilong fes' is an example of what creolists call
> 'diagrammatic iconicity'. [...]

> The problem i have with this is, if we actually try to incorporate it as a
> design feature, then where does the process end? We could end up with a
> handful of words for basic phenomena (eg. grass), and have the rest of the
> language built up on them. The consequences for precision would be drastic.
> I think it is best not to start down this path.

I guess I just don't see it as a problem.

--
Paul Bartlett
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=iRPpev0VIuu2bt0MfqE6Zm2PP5hykkXlKGkUQoDpHYqJI8Xh1mmV0I6ndRdV9zJMncMkqrG3HM4YRg
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44
From: "Ray" <rayber@st.net.au>
Date: Fri Sep 20, 2002 6:20pm
Subject: Re: Target Group & Vocabulary Size
rayber@st.net.au
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Paul:-> We dont want to get into the whole Tok Pisin
'face grass' for 'beard' business.

"Paul O. BARTLETT" <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=0H7QoLCttf8nnHvteaLTy56Rz_esT5qlJCtoWlfpPCrJ7vvC7oCDx54JQ11iAistCB9PuAEbeRZJ:->
Ummmmmm, why not? Seems perfectly legitimate to me.

Paul:-> Tok Pisin 'gras bilong fes' is an example of what creolists call
'diagrammatic iconicity'. [...] The problem i have with this is, if we
actually try
to incorporate it as a design feature, then where does the process end?
We could end up with a handful of words for basic phenomena (eg. grass),
and have the rest of the language built up on them. The consequences for
precision would be drastic.
I think it is best not to start down this path.
>
> > Paul:-> > I guess I just don't see it as a problem.

Ray:-> Chinese uses a (simplified or traditional) character that means
"must" when it is used as an auxilliary verb and means "beard" when it is
used a noun. But you can only tell from the context whether the character
is being used as "must" or as "beard". Japanese uses the simplified form of
the character to mean "must" and the traditional form to mean "beard".
(Just as commonly, Chinese also uses either the combination "reckless" +
"seed/progeny/child" or the combination "reckless" + "must/beard" to mean
"beard"). Both languages use "lip" + "must/beard" to mean "mustache", and
use "jaw" + "must/beard" to mean "goatie". Chinese and Japanese should be
priority languages to consider when choosing whether to use a compound or
separate word and when choosing which combinations would make up that word,
or at least the compounds that both Chinese and Japanese use should be
acceptable homonyms in the same way Esperanto, Ido and English can use
"vizaj-har-" or "face + hair" if the word "barb-" or "beard" doesn't come to
mind. Like Chinese and Japanese, Esperanto and Ido also use "labio-barbo"
for "mustache". Although Tok Pisin doesn't seem to need a separate word for
"hair", using "gras bilong fes" or "gras bilong hed" (?) instead, the fact
that Chinese, Japanese, Esperanto, Ido and Interlingua all have separate
words for "grass" and for "hair" indicates that a new IAL should have
separate words for "grass" and for "hair". Now English, Japanese,
Esperanto, Ido and Interlingua all use a separate word for "beard" and
Japanese and Chinese do not accept the compound "face + hair" as a homonymn
for "beard", while Chinese accepts the word "must" to also mean "beard".
Esperanto, Ido and Interlingua all accept the word "barb-" to mean "beard"
and it is recognisable in the English word "barber", and all of the
languages discussed except Tok Pisin use "lip" + "beard" to mean "mustache",
so this indicates to me that a new IAL should have separate words for
"grass", "hair" and "beard" but should use the compound "lip" + "beard" for
"mustache". Because Chinese is spoken by such a large population spread
widely across the globe and because of the cultural durability and durable
semantic cross-cultural nature of Chinese Characters, I see no reason why
the word for "beard" cannot also be used for the auxilliary "must",
providing the new IAL has a way of distinguishing a noun from a verb.
45
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 8:11am
Subject: How I arrived at the relative construction
idojc
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An isolating language must rely heavily on fixed word order to establish
grammatical relationships between words. Clearly it is an advantage if the
normal word order is also used in relative clauses. In English, and IALs
like Ido this is not the case, because they use relative pronouns:

You saw the boy (SVO)
The boy that you saw (OSV)

Vu vidis la puerulo (SVO)
La puerulo quan vu vidis (OSV)

In Mod Persian, an appropriate pronoun is used rather than a relative
pronoun, and the pronoun is always placed where the relativized phrase would
be in a normal sentence. It uses a relative open-bracket 'ke' to announce
the start of the relative clause.

The best approach seems to be a combination of these methods: the
open-bracket and normal word order of Persian, but using an invariable
relative pronoun rather than a variable pronoun where the relativized phrase
would normally be.

I have already given some examples of this type of relative, with 'ki' as
the open-bracket, and 'kel' as the invariable relative pronoun.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=csKsCFdICVZnZrFeaqA-o000zACH7g2Dba1SykoJm6Dn_9NrelA7268aCo23YNtb7t7LkLy7VC0gz-M
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46
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 1:40pm
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
nick_hempshall
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Nicholas Hempshall intended to write:
> James Chandler <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=mEOxQB-v5CBLyskD__UwL0NgNZWTuTSLxnXqw_OZlL08Js76_o9QBH43an0LlOilt1H9MTmAPA> wrote:
> > > > Mikro sta plora infante pro fala in li
> > > > luda loka
> > > > Small Asp cry infant because-of fall in Art
> > > > play place
> > mikro sta plora pro fala in li luda lo infante
>
> I have some questions about the detail of
> these examples.
>
> I guess the "fala" is a word in the
> verb-adjective class, so doesn't it
> need another noun after it, that it
> is modifying?
>
> The "sta" is showing that the crying
> is an extended process. Right?
> So what would the phrase mean
> without it?
>
> Nick


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47
From: "mikelonestar" <mikelonestar@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat Sep 21, 2002 10:02pm
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
mikelonestar
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Car Amicos Criolo
Con isto mesaje mi volir anunzar sito de grupo de Nuova Lingua
Franca a Yahoo!
http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/linguafranca/
Venir parlar del ideas de voi per nuovo lingua criol' la, si piacher.

Aca mi traduzion a Nuov' Sabir del texto de James:

Pequenino star plorando per cadir nel plaza ludir.
"Mikro sta plora infante pro fala in li luda loka"

Cordialment'
Mike
48
From: "mikelonestar" <mikelonestar@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 8:17pm
Subject: Lingua Franca del Levant
mikelonestar
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Car Amicos
Mi avir trovato articolo interesantisimo sur Lingua Franca nel
Interlingua.

La va!

Salute e bon avires
Mike

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Un Vetere Precursor De Interlingua

Proque Interlingua, le moderne reincarnation del latino medieval,
pertine al secunde medietate de nostre seculo presente, on propende a
passar super le previe existentia de un lingua auxiliar anque basate
super le latino que totevia non era planificate, ma resultava del
besonio de marineros in le medie etate de communicar in le portos
mediterranee que illes visitava. Hodie on nomina iste lingua le
Lingua Franca.

Essente le creation plus o minus spontanee de homines inculte ex
plure paises in portos ubi on parlava plure linguas differente, como
italiano, espaniol, turco e arabe, il existeva naturalmente un grande
variation in le dialectos parlate del Lingua Franca, dunque on non
pote considerar lo un lingua unificate; vermente, usar le termino
lingua implicarea forsan un prestigio e un formalitate que illo
nunquam habeva. Ergo il serea probabilemente plus apte describer le
Lingua Franca como un jargon. Illo esseva un idioma solo pro le
momento e pro le circumstantias local, ma tamen possedeva un
importantia notabile durante le seculos de su uso.

Le Lingua Franca era componite de parolas extrahite ex le major
linguas del regiones ubi on lo empleava, principalmente le linguas
romance, dunque le vocabulario multo resimilava le de Interlingua,
e.g. "lavorar" laborar, "volir" voler, "lingo" lingua, ben que le
vocabulario indigeva le grado de standardisation e neutralitate
lingual
a que usatores de Interlingua son accostumate, e parolas restringite
a
un lingua se includeva, e.g. "catibo" mal (italiano "cattivo),
dependente
del localitate ubi on usava le lingua. Le numero de parolas de
origine
italian monstra su popularitate specialmente in le portos de Italia.

Su grammatica era multo reducite e simplificate:

(a) il mancava inflexiones pro marcar le plural e anque le tempores
del verbo, le quales era indicate per particulos separate; e.g. le
perfecto se formava per le adverbo "ja": "elu ja sabito" ille (o
illa)
habeva sapite.

(b) on utilisava le infinitivo immutabile con le pronomines personal
pro exprimer le tempore presente, le imperativo etc., e.g. "mi avir"
io
habe, "ti avir" tu habe, "dar!" da!, e le sol inflexion era "-to", le
qual on addeva al infinitivo (sin -r) pro formar le tempore passate:
"voi amato" vos amava.

(c) le objecto del verbo era sovente precedite per le parola per: "il
populo amar per elu" le populo le ama; e le adjectivos possessive era
substituite per "di" ante le pronomine: "il paisi de noi" nostre
pais;

(d) le articulos era invariabile, dunque il non existeva concordantia
de genere.

Ecce un texto continue in le Lingua Franca pro illustrar melio le
natura
del lingua -- le "Patre Nostre":

"Padri di noi, ki star in syelo, noi volir ki nomi di ti star saluti.
Noi volir ki il paisi di ti star kon noi, i ki ti lasar ki tuto il
populo
fazer volo di ti na tera, syemi syemi ki nel syelo. Dar noi sempri
pani
di noi di kada jorno, i skuzar per noi li kulpa di noi, syemi syemi
ki
noi skuzar kwesto populo ki fazer kulpa a noi. Non lasar noi tenir
katibo
pensyeri, ma tradir per noi di malu. Amen"

Le Lingua Franca serviva ben le homines qui lo besionava. Al fin on
lo
associava con le classes inferior e forsan anque criminal -- in
summa,
con le vita insalubre. Nonobstante, illo superviveva usque iste
seculo,
ma es nunc toto defuncte e oblidate, excepte su nomine mesme, del
qual
on se servi ancora in multe linguas occidental, e ergo anque in
Interlingua, pro significar "lingua commun".

--per Adrian Pilgrim in "Lingua e Vita" maio - augusto 1997 No. 90

http://adam.cheshire.net/~jjbowks/auxiling/_lfdelev.html
49
From: "mikelonestar" <mikelonestar@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 8:35pm
Subject: il Padri di noi
mikelonestar
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Car Marineros, Amicos

Si per il mares navigar vizitar isto porto. . .
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/JPN-levante.html

Sito ben avizinato de muncho prigar e de monacos frecuentato.

La' in orazion al Dio, Padri di noi star anque:

"Padri di noi, ki star in syelo,
noi volir ki nomi di ti star saluti.
Noi volir ki il paisi di ti star kon noi,
i ki ti lasar ki tuto il populo fazer volo di ti na tera,
syemi syemi ki nel syelo.
Dar noi sempri pani di noi di kada jorno,
i skuzar per noi li kulpa di noi,
syemi syemi ki noi skuzar kwesto populo ki fazer kulpa a noi.
Non lasar noi tenir katibo pensyeri,
ma tradir per noi di malu."

Con saluti sempri
Mike

--
mikelonestar @ yahoo.com
50
From: "mikelonestar" <mikelonestar@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun Sep 22, 2002 8:44pm
Subject: Criolo dje Insola di Curazau
mikelonestar
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Car Marineros, Amicos

In navigar al porto del ChristuRex e PaterNoster mi avir trovato
anque il prigar nel Papiamentu.

La va!

Con saluti sempri
Mike

- - - - - - - - - -
Nos Tata, qu tu na cielu,
qu bo nombre ta santifica;
Laga bo reino bini;
qu bo boluntad sosode na terra,
mescos qu na cielu;
Duna nos awe nos pan di cada dia;
Y perdona nos nos debenan, mescos qu nos tambe ta perdona nos
debedonan;
Y no laga nos cai den tentacion,
ma libra nos dje Malu;
(pasoba di Bo ta reino, y poder, y gloria, te na eternidad.)
Amen.
51
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 1:03am
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
idojc
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Nick:

> > > mikro sta plora pro fala in li luda lo infante
> >
> > I have some questions about the detail of
> > these examples.
> >
> > I guess the "fala" is a word in the
> > verb-adjective class, so doesn't it
> > need another noun after it, that it
> > is modifying?

I dont really understand this question, because even in languages where adjs
are not stative verbs, adjs are not always followed by a noun which they
qualify:

The brown dog
but
The dog is brown

(leaving aside the TG theory that the former is just a transformation of the
latter, which i have never been convinced by).

In this case, 'fala' is a nonstative verb, and is intransitive, so is never
followed by an object noun.

> > The "sta" is showing that the crying
> > is an extended process. Right?
> > So what would the phrase mean
> > without it?

The [+nonpunctual] Aspect particle 'sta' generally does the work of the
present participles in non-isolating languages. VPs which qualify nouns
have the same meaning as they normally would. So your question is really
What is the difference between

Li infante sta plora

and

Li infante plora

This is something we wont know until we have decided how we handle Tense.
It could either mean 'The child cries' or the 'The child cried' by default.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=tx_pmTPD5vCrbbYBeKQGLJGcn2tMLSUUefMzIhAcfOKhXJgsZw06XAd0MdHZX_ZQ7SUKC9-pqcCFGhg
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52
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:40am
Subject: More relative clauses
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The advantage of the relative construction using an open-bracket 'ki' and
invariable relative particle 'kel' (and optional close-bracket 'ki') is that
more complex relatives, in which elements other than the subject or direct
object are relativized, can be handled effortlessly, just by using the
normal word order and placing 'kel' where the relativized element should be.
Consider the following Ido examples:

Vu donis la libro a la muliero
but
La muliero a qua vu donis la libro
'The woman you gave the book to'
(Indirect Object)

Il furtis l'automobilo di la komercisto
but
La komercisto di qua il furtis l'automobilo
'The businessman whose car he stole'
(Genitive)

Me naskis en la domo
but
La domo en qua me naskis
'The house I was born in' or 'The house where I was born'
(Locative Prepositional)

These relatives in both Ido and Eng involve very complicated changes of word
order. But in our system, they can just use the normal word order with
'kel':

Vu pa dona li libro a li fem
and
Li fem ki vu pa dona li libro a kel
'The woman you gave the book to'

Le pa furta li auto de li komersa om
and
Li komersa om ki le pa furta li auto de kel
'The businessman whose car he stole'

Mi naska in li kasa
and
Li kasa ki mi naska in kel
'The house I was born in'

These examples illustrate both the power of this relative construction, and
the simplicity of the resulting sentences.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=A_yQWIaKtRmif9XlXbnCFFKsdYf0t_c0NwwoT6ANFoFdPzZ7G1rICmCFjD8AUrxhS8uRRb87z1SzjA
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53
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:21am
Subject: TMA particles
idojc
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According to the prototype, creoles have a system of exactly three preverbal
TMA particles, one for each of Tense, Mood and Aspect. Moreover, they
co-occur in the order TMA. It has been suggested by some creolists that
this order reflects the semantic scope of the three categories in relation
to the verb, with Aspect having only the verb in scope, while Tense has the
verb, Aspect and Mood in scope.

We have already seen many examples of the Aspect marker 'sta', which marks
[+nonpunctual] (roughly progressive) Aspect. A creole will generally have
just one Mood particle, marking [+irrealis]. This covers both conditional
and future. In an IAL, we may want to treat future as Tense, and have a
future tense particle, for which i suggest 'va' (Fr. Occ and Late Novial):

Nu non va sava, ante ke nu reserca le
'We won't know until we research it'

Our Mood particle will cover the conditional part of [+irrealis]. For this
we may take the Occ form 'vel' (< ClasLat):

Le vel veni si le non vel fi okupa
'She would come if she wasnt busy'

Our other Tense marker will mark [+anterior] or [+past] Tense (we need to
decide which). For this i have so far used 'pa' as in Glosa, as there is no
good form from natlangs (J was forced to use Eng 'did' in Novial). 'pa'
suggests 'past', and this is a reasonable mnemonic if nothing else:

Vu non pa pensa ante ke vu (pa) akta
'You didnt think before you acted'

So we have a set of four particles: sta, va, pa, vel. These can be freely
combined in TMA order:

Le pa vel sta labora
3sg Tns Mood Asp work
'He would have been working'

Nu va pa sta marca dum tri dia
1pl Tns Tns Asp walk during three day
'We will have been walking for three days'

Mi pa va visita vu
1sg Tns Tns visit 2sg
'I was going to visit you'

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=uZUwmk29-Udlp2JTYCaw7Er03WysIVsVFkfBU1xcJf0Ep1_smF-JK-eHdxZQzcwx1H7z49JTTjnBIpA
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54
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 5:38am
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
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> > > > mikro sta plora pro fala in li luda lo infante
> > >
> > > I guess the "fala" is a word in the
> > > verb-adjective class, so doesn't it
> > > need another noun after it, that it
> > > is modifying?

James Chandler wrote:
> I dont really understand this question, because even
> in languages where adjs
> are not stative verbs, adjs are not always followed
> by a noun which they
> qualify:

> In this case, 'fala' is a nonstative verb, and is
> intransitive, so is never
> followed by an object noun.

'Fala' is in effect being used as a noun is this
phrase. So it should have some particle to 'convert'
it. Say 'at' - act, action, event. Parallel to

> konstrukta om - builder (VN)

and

> but there is no way that an adj can be used
> as a noun without some other particle, viz.

> mikro om - small person
> mikro kos - small thing
> mikro so - smallness (state of being small, or size)

Nick

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55
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 7:38am
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
idojc
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Nick:

>'Fala' is in effect being used as a noun is this
>phrase. So it should have some particle to 'convert'
>it. Say 'at' - act, action, event. Parallel to
>
> > konstrukta om - builder (VN)
>
>and [....]

In fact, 'fala' in this sentence is an infinitive. To say that infinitives
are substantival (at least functionally) is perhaps not wrong, but it is
certainly an oversimplification.

Rather than a nominalizing particle, what you are really asking for is an
infinitive marker. J used 'tu' (< Eng 'to', Ger 'zu') in Novial, but over
time the novialists found that a specific infinitive marker was not
necessary, and started using the simple 'ground' form of the verb. This is
what i did in my sample sentence.

We could use Novial 'tu', but it would seem odd to use it in this sentence,
since even in Eng:

The child crying because to fall in the playground

is incorrect. I am not aware of any situation where an infinitive marker
actually makes a sentence clearer.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=HYus7kTZog1r09ao-qZYD79BS21XN6JE-mDLSdTZDgUAtG7VrMwQ2d4nxMTLng0-MYf4J0eyDSvk
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56
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 8:47am
Subject: Three fundamental transformations
idojc
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During the Basis Project i talked on Auxlang-Dialog about the three
fundamental transformations of TG grammar: Question, Negative and Passive.
We got a Point out of each one.

We have already looked at Passives in eurocreole, with a Passive particle
'fi' (or 'bli' < Swe?) which also does the work of passive participles.

For Questions, we again want to keep the normal word order if possible. For
this a sentence-initial question particle, as in all the RefList languages,
is ideal. Esp takes 'chu' from Polish, while Ido has Sanskrit 'ka'. The
form 'ku', which is a fusion of these two forms, suggests 'kuestion', and is
ideal phoneticly, CV with a simple obstruent:

Ku vu nom es John?
Is your name John?

According to Jespersen, languages have two tendencies with regard to
negative markers:

a) They have a preference for preverbal negative marking.
b) They have a preference for substantial negative markers.

Thus negative marking tends to go in cycles:

1. A preverbal marker gets worn down by phonetic change until it is too weak
for its role.
2. It is then fortified by a postverbal marker, which gradually assumes the
role of negator, allowing the weak form to fall away completely.
3. This new, stronger postverbal marker gets used earlier and earlier in the
sentence, until it becomes preverbal, and we are back to Step 1, where the
process repeats.

Thus in Fr., the original Latin marker 'non' got worn down to [n@], and had
to be bolstered by a postverbal 'pas', originally meaning 'step'. This
'pas' has started to usurp the role of 'ne' and can sometimes be used
without 'ne'. Eventually 'ne' will fall away and 'pas' will be used earlier
in the sentence.

Thus we need a form which is at least CV with a full vowel, and ideally CVC.
For this J took Latin 'non', which also used as a prefix in Eng:
'nonconformist, non-stick, non-fiction'. This is ideal for our system. The
negative marker comes before the verb and all TMA markers:

Le non va konkorda kun vu
'He will not agree with you'

Nu pa pren li non (pa) fi rupta biskwite
'We took the unbroken biscuits'

Li komputore non pove fi usa
'The computer is unusable'

(Note the combination of 'pove' and 'fi' to do the work of a suffix -able
here. Similarly 'pove' can do the work of a suffix '-ive'.)

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=TgGLQh0cT6Wg7iJaClPj-rTw8VHZc6iUfLrlF90rJjeCzCYjPJNfzJHtzJWlnlNLS990hK-dH42u
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57
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 9:11am
Subject: Pronouns, plural and sex
idojc
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Most of the pronouns have already been used in sample sentences:

mi nu
vu vu
le le

Or should we take 'nos', which is more distinct from 'vu' and frees up 'nu'
for 'now'?

In the second and third person plural marking is optional. I suggest a
postposed pluralizer as in Papiamentu 'nan'. However, 'nan' is too similar
to 'non' to be postposed. I therefore propose the form 'ban' from Mauritius
Creole (Morisyen) < Fr. 'bande de', only postposed as in Pu:

Ku vu ban va veni deman?
'Will you (y'all/you guys) come tomorrow?'

Li dosa om odia le ban
'The teacher hates them'

Nos pa manja li karote ban
'We ate the carrots'

We have already seen the female sex marker 'fem'. For a male marker i
suggest 'man' (<Eng,Ger):

man amike
'male friend'

fem kavale
'female horse, mare'

'fem le ban'
Fr. 'elles'

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=kb1ROp3NT8XRaH9vJYSbVtRuRdMeCOQobq7U9XQ2SdWsi_oEkz0eqMv7bX5KaoBWFo0t3y0qq2I
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58
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:48am
Subject: Re: Some initial thoughts
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James Chandler wrote:
> In fact, 'fala' in this sentence is an infinitive.
> To say that infinitives
> are substantival (at least functionally) is perhaps
> not wrong, but it is
> certainly an oversimplification.

Can an isolating language be said to have infinitives?

The phrase actually started out as "A small child
crying due to falling in the play ground" with
"falling" being a gerund.

Hence my feeling the need of a nominalizing particle.

Nick



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59
From: Nicholas Hempshall <nick_hempshall@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tue Sep 24, 2002 10:51am
Subject: Re: Pronouns, plural and sex
nick_hempshall
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James Chandler wrote:
> Or should we take 'nos', which is more distinct from
> 'vu' and frees up 'nu'
> for 'now'?

I think 'nos' for 'we/us' would be preferable.

Have we discussed possessive use of pronouns yet?

Nick

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60
From: "James Chandler" <idojc@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed Sep 25, 2002 2:48am
Subject: Re: Pronouns, plural and sex
idojc
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Nick:

>I think 'nos' for 'we/us' would be preferable.

I think you're right. No IAL has ever used 'nu', except proto-Ido. This
way we can use 'nu' for 'now' as in Occ, avoiding 'nun' which is similar to
'non'. So we have:

mi nos
vu vu (ban)
le le (ban)

If we need a separate form for 'it' (concrete or abstract), 'lu' is still
available. We can also add an invariable 3rd person reflexive 'se', and
perhaps also a general pronoun 'on' (as a variant of 'om'; or is this
superfluous?).

>Have we discussed possessive use of pronouns yet?

No, i will discuss that under Genitive.

Kordiale, James Chandler
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eurocreole/post?postID=4vVUvMRr64cpB4PuUbMGJTxJhoB2HP6EGH-StOvp1x8T45yzakNcMVDyjX7Hi0ORLGcD01VEo4Q
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