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On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:00 PM, qualevistanda= s@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Quank= am che Dyer (Ido-Angla) trovesas "cizelar" e "cizelilo", yen ke che > Dyer = (Angla-Ido) ultre to, anke trovesas "cizel-agar" (che "chase"). > Surprizo,= ka ne? (Me ne savas ka l' papera Dyer-originalajo anke prizentas > ibe "ci= zel-agar") > > (Partaka) > > > --f403045e57feb749dd054521192c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, to esas vera!=C2=A0http://www.idolinguo.org.uk/eniddyer.htm#C

=
Me regretinde ne havas originalo di Dyer.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:00= PM, qualevistandas@yahoo.es= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote= :
=C2=A0
=

Quankam che Dyer (Ido-Angla) trovesas = "cizelar" e "cizelilo", yen ke che Dyer (Angla-Ido) ult= re to, anke trovesas "cizel-agar" (che "chase"). Surpri= zo, ka ne? (Me ne savas ka l' papera Dyer-originalajo anke prizentas ib= e "cizel-agar")=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka)


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Dyer) inkluzas. Exemple, la > precip= ua defino di "actif" (aktiva) esas "Qui agit" (Qua agas). Certe lu > kredis= ke "agema" o "aganta" suficus. > > O forsan lu simple ne vidis defini, nam= en ta dicionario certena defini > esas tre kurta. Pro to me adjuntis tries= ma defino a la vorto "galerio", > defino quan me trovis en la Franca dicion= ario: > https://io.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=3Dgalerio&oldid=3D23187= 01 > > Tale ni povos kontrolar la defini da Pesch e decidar se ta o ca defi= no > meritas adjuntesar a Wikivortaro. > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Ph= ilippe > > P.S. > La defino di "hela" inkluzesas en la unesma defino di "kl= ara" da Pesch > (per "extenso") Dyer anke ofras la sama senco kam "hela". >= > 2017-01-02 6:46 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguol= isto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> Danko, Gilles-Philippe! = >> >> Semblas ke tu jus solvis tre anciena misterio!! En la prefaco di la >= > dicionario da Pesch on ya lektas i.a. (p.2): >> >> =C2=ABMea rolo, en la = produkto di ca verko, konsistis ye: >> 1. tradukar en Ido la defini Akademi= ala (di qui a originalo esis en la >> Franca);=C2=BB >> >> Or, segun quante= me savas, l'Akademio Idista nultempe publikigis o mem >> enuncis vorto-def= ini en la Franca! Maxim-granda-parte, l'aprobita vorti >> publikigesis en P= rogreso sen defini, nam on judikis la AFGHIR-tradukuri >> (ed, en pasable m= ulta kazi, nur AFGHI, sen la Rusa) kom suficanta. En >> certena kazi on ya = publikigis vorto-defini, ma evidente en Ido (ne en la >> Franca!). En ta ka= zi, la vorti propozesis e prizentesis a votado kun la >> rispektiva defini,= e do l'aprobo (o repulso, segun la kazi) koncernis ne >> nur la propozita = vorti, ma anke olia defini. Tamen sempre en Ido: nula >> defino publikigesi= s en la Franca en Progreso. Do me konjektas ke la >> eventuala existo di = =C2=ABdefini Akademiala=C2=BB di singla vorto en la Franca esas >> ulsorta = konfundo o mem mistifiko da Pesch (ecepte ke per =C2=ABdefini >> Akademiala= =C2=BB il vizis dicar =C2=ABdefini di Franca vorti dal Franca Akademio=C2= =BB...) >> >> Kordiale, >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo >> >> >> >> >> 2017-01-02 5:41 G= MT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Kara samideani! >>> A ti qui komprena= s la Franca, e qui interesesas dal origino di la >>> dicionario da Pesch: >= >> >>> Me trovis la fonto di Pesch! >>> >>> Lu esas Franca dicionario gener= ala: >>> *Dictionnaire g=C3=A9n=C3=A9rale de la langue fran=C3=A7aise: du c= ommencement du XVIIe >>> si=C3=A8cle jusqu'=C3=A0 nos jours, pr=C3=A9c=C3= =A9d=C3=A9 d'un trait=C3=A9 de la formation de la langue.* >>> >>> Pesch pl= ajiis defini de ta verko, nam me vidas nula menciono pri ta >>> fonto en la= enreta versiono di la radikaro. >>> >>> Me uzis ta dicionario por verifika= r la senco di certena vorti: >>> *frogo* (cf. *brandebourg*) >>> *plastro* = (cf. *pl=C3=A2tre*: yes, lua stranja defini venas de ibe!) >>> >>> Vi povas= verifikar per vi ipsa. >>> >>> Pesch, pri "frogo": >>> >>> *Sorto di kazak= o kun longa maniki, di qua l'uzokostumo venis de >>> Brandenburg, lor la re= jo Louis la 14ma di Francia, ordinare garnisita per >>> butoni olivatra, in= terligita per galoni.* >>> >>> La Franca dicionario, pri "brandebourg": >>>= *Sorte de casaque =C3=A0 longues manches, dont l'usage vint de Brandebourg= , >>> au temps de Louis XIV, ordinairement garnie de boutons en olive reli= =C3=A9s >>> entre eux par des galons.* >>> >>> Lu tradukis la defini preske= vortope. >>> >>> Yen la kompleta dicionario (edituro di 1928), *skanita en= la Franca >>> biblioteko Gallica: >>> Unesma Parto [A-F] >>> >>> Duesma Parto [G-Z] >>> = >>> >>> Me jud= ikas, ke ta verko povas esar vera trezoro por plu bone komprenar >>> la dic= ionario da Pesch. >>> >>> A ti qui demandas a su quale me trovis to: ta pag= ino ne mentias >>> . >>> >>> Bona fo= liumado, >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> >>> >> >> > > --001a113c9824efd01f05452222b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
quin* altra dicionarii
On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 12:58 PM, Gilles-Philipp= e Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la informo!= =C2=A0

Pro unsenceso, semblas ke Pesch ignoris plu= ra defini (mem en sua dicionario) quan altra dicionarii (i.a. Dyer) inkluza= s. Exemple, la precipua defino di "actif" (aktiva) esas "Qui= agit" (Qua agas). Certe lu kredis ke "agema" o "aganta= " suficus.

O forsan lu simple ne vidis defini= , nam en ta dicionario certena defini esas tre kurta. Pro to me adjuntis tr= iesma defino a la vorto "galerio", defino quan me trovis en la Fr= anca dicionario:
https://io.wiktiona= ry.org/w/index.php?title=3Dgalerio&oldid=3D2318701

Tale ni povos kontrolar la defini da Pesch e decidar= se ta o ca defino meritas adjuntesar a Wikivortaro.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

= P.S.
La defino di "hela" inkluzesas en la unesma defino= di "klara" da Pesch (per "extenso") Dyer anke ofras la= sama senco kam "hela".

2017-01= -02 6:46 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] &= lt;linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= u>
=C2=A0

Danko, Gilles-Philippe!

=
Semblas ke tu jus solvis tre anciena misterio!! En la prefa= co di la dicionario da Pesch on ya lektas i.a. (p.2):

=
=C2=ABMea rolo, en la produkto di ca verko, k= onsistis ye:
1. tradukar en = Ido la defini Akademiala (di qui a originalo esis en la Franca);=C2=BB
<= br>
Or, segun quante me savas, l= 'Akademio Idista nultempe publikigis o mem enuncis vorto-defini en la F= ranca! Maxim-granda-parte, l'aprobita vorti publikigesis en Progreso se= n defini, nam on judikis la AFGHIR-tradukuri (ed, en pasable multa kazi, nu= r AFGHI, sen la Rusa) kom suficanta. En certena kazi on ya publikigis vorto= -defini, ma evidente en Ido (ne en la Frranca!). En ta kazi, la vorti propoz= esis e prizentesis a votado kun la rispektiva defini, e do l'aprobo (o = repulso, segun la kazi) koncernis ne nur la propozita vorti, ma anke olia d= efini. Tamen sempre en Ido: nula defino publikigesis en la Franca en Progre= so. Do me konjektas ke la eventuala existo di =C2=ABdefini Akademiala=C2=BB= di singla vorto en la Franca esas ulsorta konfundo o mem mistifiko da Pesc= h (ecepte ke per =C2=ABdefini Akademiala=C2=BB il vizis dicar =C2=ABdefini = di Franca vorti dal Franca Akademio=C2=BB...)

<= /span>
Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo



2017-01-02 5:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mori= n gphmorin@gmail.co= m [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:=
=C2=A0
=

Kara samideani!
A ti qui komprenas la Franca, e qui inte= resesas dal origino di la dicionario da Pesch:

Me = trovis la fonto di Pesch!

Lu esas Franca dicionari= o generala:
Dictionnaire g=C3=A9n=C3=A9rale de la langue fran= =C3=A7aise: du commencement du XVIIe si=C3=A8cle jusqu'=C3=A0 nos jours= , pr=C3=A9c=C3=A9d=C3=A9 d'un trait=C3=A9 de la formation de la langue.=

Pesch plajiis defini de ta verko, nam me = vidas nula menciono pri ta fonto en la enreta versiono di la radikaro.

Me uzis ta dicionario por verifikar la senco di certen= a vorti:
frogo=C2=A0(cf. brandebourg)
plastro= =C2=A0(cf. pl=C3=A2tre: yes, lua stranja defini venas de ibe!)

Vi povas verifikar per vi ipsa.

Pesch, pri "frogo":
Sorto di kazako kun longa = maniki, di qua l'uzokostumo venis de Brandenburg, lor la rejo Louis la = 14ma di Francia, ordinare garnisita per butoni olivatra, interligita per ga= loni.

La Franca dicionario, pri "bran= debourg":
Sorte de casaque =C3=A0 longues manches, dont l'us= age vint de Brandebourg, au temps de Louis XIV, ordinairement garnie de bou= tons en olive reli=C3=A9s entre eux par des galons.

Lu tradukis la defini preske vortope.

=
Yen la kompleta dicionario (edituro di 1928), *skanita en la Franca bi= blioteko Gallica:

Me judikas, k= e ta verko povas esar vera trezoro por plu bone komprenar la dicionario da = Pesch.

A ti qui demandas a su quale me trovis to: = ta pagi= no ne mentias.

Bona foliumado,
Gille= s-Philippe


=



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Yes, la imprimita lexiko Angla-Ido da Dyer havas "cizel-agar" (skribita en du linei). Forsan la chanjo dil radiko cizel de verbala a substantivala eventis dum lua laboro, o forsan lu anticipis la chanjo!
Robert C.
 
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 2 Jan 2017 13:55:50 -0500: 


Me regretinde ne havas originalo di Dyer.


On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:00 PM, qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Quankam che Dyer (Ido-Angla) trovesas "cizelar" e "cizelilo", yen ke che Dyer (Angla-Ido) ultre to, anke trovesas "cizel-agar" (che "chase"). Surprizo, ka ne? (Me ne savas ka l' papera Dyer-originalajo anke prizentas ibe "cizel-agar") 


 (Partaka)


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Kara samideani,
Me trovis la vorto "deklivo"= en Wikivortaro, sen defino:
Ta vorto existas en Esperanto (pento) ma en Ido, me ne savas: l= u esas nek che Dyer, nek che Pesch, nek en la Listo de Nova Vorti (1924-200= 2).

Ka ta vorto existas?

= Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
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"cizel-agar" certe esas plu justa kam "c= izelar", pro kohero. Gilles-Philippe On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 3:43 PM, 'Rob= ert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote= : > > > Yes, la imprimita lexiko Angla-Ido da Dyer havas "cizel-agar" (skr= ibita en > du linei). Forsan la chanjo dil radiko cizel de verbala a substa= ntivala > eventis dum lua laboro, o forsan lu anticipis la chanjo! > Robert= C. > > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 2 J= an 2017 > 13:55:50 -0500: > Nu, to esas vera! http://www.idolinguo.org.uk/e= niddyer.htm#C > > > Me regretinde ne havas originalo di Dyer. > > > On Mon,= Jan 2, 2017 at 1:00 PM, qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < > linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > Quankam che Dyer (Ido-Angla) trovesas "cize= lar" e "cizelilo", yen ke che > Dyer (Angla-Ido) ultre to, anke trovesas "c= izel-agar" (che "chase"). > Surprizo, ka ne? (Me ne savas ka l' papera Dyer= -originalajo anke prizentas > ibe "cizel-agar") > > > (Partaka) > > > > --f403045ea0aaaebfc105452328fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert,
Danko pro la informo. "cizel-agar&qu= ot; certe esas plu justa kam "cizelar", pro kohero.
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 3:43 PM, 'Robert C.' <= a href=3D"mailto:ido@avenue.me.uk">ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
= =C2=A0

Yes, la imprimita lexiko Angla-Ido da Dyer havas &= quot;cizel-agar" (skribita en du linei). Forsan la chanjo dil radiko c= izel de verbala a substantivala eventis dum lua laboro, o forsan lu anticip= is la chanjo!
Robert C.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
G= illes-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 2 Jan 2017 13:55:50 -0500:=C2= =A0


Me regretinde ne havas ori= ginalo di Dyer.


On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 1:00 PM, qualevistandas@yah= oo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
= =C2=A0
Quankam che Dyer (Ido-Angla) trovesas "cizelar" e = "cizelilo", yen ke che Dyer (Angla-Ido) ultre to, anke trovesas &= quot;cizel-agar" (che "chase"). Surprizo, ka ne? (Me ne sava= s ka l' papera Dyer-originalajo anke prizentas ibe "cizel-agar&quo= t;)=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka)


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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 10:10:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 10:10:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:10:49 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec3c28bb53e0545349684 Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: deklivo? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec3c28bb53e0545349684 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Danko pro la konfirmo. Arto Moisio supresis la defino en Wikivortaro. Gill= es-Philippe 2017-01-03 6:46 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto= ] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Segun semblo, la formo "deklivo" m= isaparas en nia wiki-vortaro (e mem > tri-foye che nia wikipedio). Ol es Es= peranto klasika, ma ne Ido, qua havas > altra vorti, qual "pento", "rampo",= "taluso"... Yen ke "pento" signifikas > ulo altra en Espo. > > (Partaka) = > > > --f403045ec3c28bb53e0545349684 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danko pro la konfirmo. Arto Moisio supresis la defino en W= ikivortaro.

Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-03 6:46 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolist= o] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Segun semblo, la formo "deklivo" misaparas en ni= a wiki-vortaro (e mem tri-foye che nia wikipedio). Ol es Esperanto klasika,= ma ne Ido, qua havas altra vorti, qual "pento", "rampo"= ;, "taluso"... Yen ke "pento" signifikas ulo altra en E= spo.=C2=A0


<= div>=C2=A0(Partaka)

=
=

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Kara samideani,
Me havas problemo kun la vorto "p= ento".

Segun Pesch, "pento" esas:
Direciono di plano, qua formacas angulo obliqua ye horizontalo.=

Tamen, to esas la defino di la Fra= nca vorto "pente" (qua en Angla esas "slope").

Pesch ja prenis ta defino de lua Franca dicionario (pen= te, pagino 1710):
Direction d'un plan formant un angle= oblique avec l'horizontale.

Regret= inde, kande me konsultas Dyer, me vidas ke "pento" ne esas "= slope" ma, segun la defino di Pesch, "pento decensanta" (dow= nward slope). Lu esas do, segun Dyer, antonimo di "rampo".
<= div>
Do ka la vera senco di la Ido "pento" esas &qu= ot;pento decensanta" (pente descendante)?

Quo= esas la vera vorto por la Franca "pente" e la Angla "slope&= quot;?

Yen rezumo di la problemo segun Dyer:
=
pente descendante =3D downward slope =3D pento
pente ascenda= nte =3D upward slope =3D rampo
pente =3D slope =3D ???
=
Yen rezumo di la interpreto da Pesch:
pente descendante = =3D downward slope =3D pento decensanta
pente ascendante =3D upwa= rd slope =3D rampo
pente =3D slope =3D pento

=
Quale solvar ta problemo?

Kun kordiala saluti= ,
Gilles-Philippe

--f403045e57feb095e7054534eeb6-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4655 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 14125 invoked by uid 102); 3 Jan 2017 18:46:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m11.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2017 18:46:03 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 24897 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2017 18:46:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.121) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2017 18:46:03 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: k5f5tb4WLDsa8GoIFvvyyzRBp4kg_cAihI5OW7sBuyHrtsf_ wi9qlx36KdVZiigNfdEcSAiF_VWR5YEwKlTScI.mFXJC53Nnl8PtWIf0dlsk h2P5v0mIxL5YwZgWdtFvcqeR.OcT6fXSdFbsD03xaoq4pef4KivwpF3iSqnf NQxUPVIVLCUSpLMqiSiVlKC4z4FnOtfRZA3kUJ7HHNEkkVOVDXxpF7qZfrP5 _LDMCCRQkU1xLP9gjhFIzcwM2kMb1pHIh2LVQa9dVaRQpzEXse5oswFqqEQT 74IZ5ncrJ_tK_gh.Uao_Ho9slKXUSJHD3Tlv9P0jfh49YNtnPPott.mumdIa fiRZ7GaiyF3XIXBoxu1RA44j11GTUub.q3NtxVz8E2pT8nNcM79GFlgTUvWg KSbbLGU2wuOD7Py7skU7adTw_Vp1VngX3aImJfnqojMZXmERV8O5_S3KdF_3 CLz.6mEUjGkiIws5inIPWcpiokyXILCDlTV4Wi1gjTdVCSZZMMNQ8XKR37MJ v4AWMLYdWFkBSy.mIyJ8VwF6wKnHl5Sgsioy6hEs.ZL_5ldns6ONcZp00Sgc i35n61tnn6DgiyaL3Qs1Z0berO5Zm.1QqjQwJtf7XA0ghfZdVq3uE18WvEMn SQxPA4w0o4TUqvY83I9jQcGG4SQg6e14Qsfj31Gb73JphagGgqhQAvE3Cnb4 ptWwaHMAEH0KRE.wOLhsze5g.3JDmsYkCxQmuUw4OuX3KiM10JyoW5gTtZwM 6G7bvVwmiiRIq5gH_38hAHStVZytQQ3VX1zSMJU8W7PI_vRtrJtvEAZUoRy2 8CTIDFOdrO8S2QNLWRy08dgLlMkg1FRDdjSWgswIfcC5sVPJj.YcoJjVHQcg athBCAsI1NBMhtuLyLL.qKnQht6IGtyps0dX42hVBtwAt9vst4.Nd3IPYIdD poW78tKRmPqFA1Hu4FGcT3LdOC2JoX.QrSXLQG4wzjAjrNzXtCtRQncxzLCD tIlD_l0oG4a6X7BWndPfp6l9Rg2DNJMbxThXnI4qCCyD8B1V9nNcDzOMSRbP LTtEowQlvP9JYBBiVp5rB5hPQogLJMZmjSDy_OT.3ueeGXhcn2D97yyUhGy2 .HQNXPRfE6e71NbB0h2ysV_fYEVXfHLGZ4HxrmPdYni3irG8zBbcR2MTQI3C zdtkPAF9iv8HpUImpyufONlSqtlOBr7RrOIptEDmFvwV_zEFnXUR7dVJXcf5 _cea1OgASB6agurQRTVVOdci6i_4ShHC24EG6qSKu_iFGzpB89Ez6w8nx7s- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f43.google.com) (209.85.215.43) by mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 18:46:02 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f43.google.com with SMTP id y21so290638041lfa.1 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 10:46:02 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=yAge7V+G2WKoC854lTAu50DvdLRtJfmi6HqK7I13s+Q=; b=nI1BBTMIghENSM06PWjDBLd3XlAithJGr3y35YlV3IO3XduQHQXMI86gr9x6pMOh0E v9hSPRLXO7Oc8vU0NvG8wApOlxiQAb3tE2OcRInuX968yefNnNUwV7msuKU21GR8JOfj vkrypO7Mc2h046+cp6X0KtDjugCHDcXb20AeOg+9JCXqhXHatQTUU7uyuZrEzAtd6NJb Z160IVl4mcazaqAm/CMDDwt74Xgs24WWiJjDuhFcSTXyODXBS5KhS0h7Aq5r4NRoLjdl SbHeu6pKqRmsYg4vNkYkBaHOlgq9A+ZmbMlGTlntZW0jfyXsuv0Nw5LQ/Dnl4C2i92mC Z+Pg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIYuqgP/JKv9UUF6F9J6Yl7s2b+zq9d5P9THeELn+JJrQ0Gx/jL4Fh+YjD+8AGKA8MnTS7qk1mVFl61rA== X-Received: by 10.25.80.4 with SMTP id e4mr23691560lfb.89.1483469160938; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 10:46:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 10:46:00 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:46:00 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1cc4d45f86e605453514ec Subject: dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --94eb2c1cc4d45f86e605453514ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Kara samideani, Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro: https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dinosaurio Lu dicas ke la vorto "dinosaurio" esas obsoleta e ke "dinosauro" ja oficaleskis. Ka to esas vera? Ka "dinosauro" oficaleskis, o ka to esas ankore nur deziro? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe --94eb2c1cc4d45f86e605453514ec Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara samideani,Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro:
=

Lu dicas ke la vorto "dinosaurio" esas obsoleta e ke= "dinosauro" ja oficaleskis.

Ka to esas vera? Ka "dinosa= uro" oficaleskis, o ka to esas ankore nur deziro?

Kun kordiala sal= uti,
Gilles-Philippe
--94eb2c1cc4d45f86e605453514ec-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4656 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22399 invoked by uid 102); 3 Jan 2017 18:50:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m8.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2017 18:50:53 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 28150 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2017 18:50:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.82) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2017 18:50:53 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.49 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: ck5dw5AWLDvWUTD1lO3a6kbFXy0DMhLg.aYr2EEewI8Th.Fz 4rnNWcjsiLwqQjz5wk2WeT1zxwDnKU_AXJs1VgyNQk4NyHmUdUdWLzywvRO7 JtXoWEZi22l7yBxvckZ1T6h.AYsIDMYaXKfWxm5iAle77y7wv.9nDvHtgqm8 4n4CXiylUHG3dSs2W.wg6LNOmvktnsFAkEcexguc4_S03Hh4eJPBrEbhOkBy xqXxtOSSNa1isRLMNiLqM13jeIvGB_JvbLqUlZ1k.Ea9tjjEuTCzpFo34V_V ZNIO2vQapw5TnPoXpgJ1UqsxVYMY0vZPmm14Rh0W_NeZvPxAQuyRRXhIGQ7O y9VwxKonXIeBy0LUhp0buZP8bFEQLmO7SwlvtjOPUhkr3nm_cw57M_uxzyPT uRtuxFWMFjPm7U9pljkOs_BQrGK0.OGAx_mxAF03KkehGdY8AmdkaacnQIyV o0wrhYaqRrGgPCFoauDkn3OyHkqBDutbeJ6bf90.Y7pzUZHRjxhGWG4vjXfC .2BnHJP_W1mCso9mAB1Bg1w1tZJ..1vj8e6fBRWQrRZEvx2oP.x12Bzq6Jtl Yqjz1vPTykN5LBpr0JfBUV.Ve64OkZOLGgICxZmQTQxq8MNJjX_A_kb.EOvu 2lY9nly6Kxj0gLPlg.xBjeSQwWIW.jDZm8SokYx_3KWwnIZPDFQ7HLYGsFHW UhQOcz5RXsbY78DDkaA2fcD146ECVjnTJuSyKkI6alKzzq.X33b6.DUtvQzQ FGW6jHXD5i6B2oXUwMPt.VNzlhGaffae3oNASOgotatHCC.jaII6cL1LhGX. U5OdRUixKwaNev0dSnawH0IgjwwQ0gUL_uvYiUouc2aPjbc_qLMC6LdqDBAx Wgjkfe05YEV92ahw4RB3djLJLEri52KmJ5Fzx9g4cgQMH_.w9Tvfk7dtRFAY LsiZBFKxV6H9V8qTnu6h4EBldvNC0H0j2pLs.NuE45QTV6eitIqkDfO0wqkH goPfziFTiFOCvsTAI8s9w3rsffECgmqQTuLCU_F8.2agq38G9xJnSS.hVAq. I3zO.2Sy2aq1LKJdPyGo8usY1xbSmLsrSLvMMatV3SIhnyZxjhzj7XrQeQ-- Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f49.google.com) (209.85.215.49) by mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 18:50:52 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f49.google.com with SMTP id k86so1561554lfi.0 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 10:50:52 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MJgxl9JtSe7KDwmt1PmA9+Of2JWmjNwCgtym9v5ULy8=; b=XMbcpq4OEHmOdjsW8x9tBaVYYlvvqyECHT+Iyook5dB4rLULiM1HpwoVeVk6JsdzkQ 5MeDN8mzhqtyJ+LHl7nveVJPBTaMHICszhAGPjBRhwCTzAmFuFg5+FxMtQ9ROWt8/FbV EpzQA+6BXaX9wt/yftytiwxP3hnR2izlgtpgOtvhhK5eb1jFGY4qYDuSHsgeSYMXG5Zf cI/zLJG2WUR7vwgl2OI/zrCmjtNpl+djdbWgu5sCEhO13gBc6Pnc75wvNWXVzE9CoZP5 iFR4TQUXNlTolG536cZ7mNflDp/O0Q4yDfRUanTMeNriHcv0jDHg1ciNIIodDuCL2+Qo OlUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIVm7fPojzS+U0dhvttWCJHcr9De2GC1h2vNLm6hEXydCmxZ1xGugBI7LP6LSgUmXCLw27XlejnCVsLbQ== X-Received: by 10.46.69.2 with SMTP id s2mr23523644lja.56.1483469451079; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 10:50:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 10:50:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:50:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114b072caab75305453525a3 Subject: enrejistrar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114b072caab75305453525a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Kara samideani, Me deziras savar, ka la vorto "enrejistrar" remplasis la vorti "registr-agar" e "en-registr-igar" (segun Dyer) kande lu oficaleskis? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe --001a114b072caab75305453525a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara samideani,
Me deziras savar, ka la vorto "en= rejistrar" remplasis la vorti "registr-agar" e "en-regi= str-igar" (segun Dyer) kande lu oficaleskis?

= Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
--001a114b072caab75305453525a3-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4657 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 3043 invoked by uid 102); 3 Jan 2017 19:03:52 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2017 19:03:52 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 29491 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2017 19:03:52 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.121) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Jan 2017 19:03:52 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: c4jjTkYWLDtEteN6wcnzMcIA.bVs91F0qc668Jxnonc.ZqZv Sscvwmb1HMr8HGTuHtNaKYo1cC1RdqySRDuWtdV34v7wFmMngxvV8hNNXeEX PHPqyfxJXX8UdEKBpyae5WmX9fS_pSjW4blj.EQtoSeeHXS4YO3AeiFeh8TC 45_GG6_G9XeOHXgKkMTNPkqHSS9WocGD2wVU20c7cYhmWkXPrtyWx3x3QQF_ o5bFZ96a2nRliKc1_MsKBkIQ3Oo1Rb9ZRjaDH49RuwJNPq743jYsx6BeuW6S 3xlTkeOZr6nxsTAtEbWXtrL_EVT2JTDqTmPDd3OldWk..1DvNmeZzM9mAI3h 7sK4LKWio7_ql3t6brTqYDuO3VNAnLYiDpVxCffD9koRmfwFm3sLlL37NPD7 yNpiPNxJZwqWm8lqVO6kal5vAAiZDBW7Yvz_iWn708HEZng_n3wjNTCvq1mo NrLxnKEqLXU8AkJ7vFJUoqEwywlrx2Gbt0B5flXrV53SI2BLq7fOL5P3_AP2 ML8YOdQszXgrcmnKLdJNNxRTgihJYWmbbJTA6oTAdXilTey.GPN3qJ.Wd2lM FHBE3Fq0_Vx_bThpaxg4KO6RKjYQJKBmp8QQlJ8Zo_vFoUziyjTauApX2ydG Trq91tgmtKO47Wpo2kjR1rNoaSfbHyxUCEVB53F3L0gmjllT8pA_C84Sc2Eg cELTpZnzwxd1F4pIZTPYNVQHcLArJgxRfHzjCLOtB_K9jU7vCRn8HEGWB8Gh yKZHIZThOFpvo6evBqwUnwQWlyl.4WlTyBbEzZFhKho.cQqmSKPVYKkU2PC_ 1vJPEdFmLL9ZEt1bBIebwOmj7fITmYK1v3_VV_c2kBQ5rwb6asguR1xP7Kaa NeVY9z1wZu_xo6g2Z0OgD4yi3G7WHhA62viHUKeNsYmmOmjxmh0Q1CPBufst FJS1MZXMEvffjiHI9c19t_dz698tqWZzhLOkFZvMKhKVwLNeZjiF8.X1Ziwy 33wVKgmagEpDhGP5dXaGa3EV_SRo2Zvrae6Ef2R7agOmjfbJv2UDIQ3CWPX0 th7r0ETZ3pe.pugsJiJryfwCID.yd.kiZXTRrpz73V90WXrn2EWD0rnz0T2g ovvVIkkA5IaMlzFcRMZu59fRZCuMqk.alXIX8ra5dBfa1863xQXqdUR25sFK I_Hv4jV2MQDqy080UGQEavsSI557IWhFwn7N1yBTITpHMBFwOiIi35CxH66p sbzMMe39YS6TNb2kmPWX1uFGEzjnV8_36AYpo9CN8QC_C7beVDFfUh5nroyp 4g-- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f48.google.com) (209.85.215.48) by mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 19:03:52 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f48.google.com with SMTP id y21so290931953lfa.1 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:03:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=z5SuDmOrWnjhEuFvFpQxs9WmPVxIIXCDi1q0VzrtGDE=; b=Mpoc+91nVfPGX1OJAsnLiZceZbGxDjR0Khk2x5Hll1XJr3QCVFXVTS3tOlvOOIbDal QYAFkirRscCOOwy2ejDt+rNY/j3DNKMjXFIKLxRnrMYG1+a9y0MFJMnNfc7nADeA7B4q kWfIGRjutD+JoFwSrqFsPVhL9me7iKCykzMCle2HSNeY1ggJYX86ozDFkwAwyQkt7v8S JbAJGYmj7u1+2Z56A0dRg/1yqLi7sdCxfHQTRpYNB014XmpDx8kvTgIsONpDmoJfS/pb Vy/BLvQJM0Co7zTmwPanqHPoYmgCb3ObLbFfFuBy/0/PecnRHO1G/Y1Zf7BNezdUIGMX hEDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJHapvj3tXj1AdfFRK3RoHsYQ+eRWgv1pm+Ih7sulSwLL+o09rtTOw9nzgzoaj/D1T06F1j8slY93/eJQ== X-Received: by 10.46.69.2 with SMTP id s2mr23542629lja.56.1483470230466; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:03:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 11:03:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 14:03:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114b072c1f377c05453554a9 Subject: boraxo X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114b072c1f377c05453554a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Kara samideani, Wikivortaro dicas ke la vorto "boraxo" esas nun obsoleta. https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/boraxo Nu, "boraxo" esas tote internaciona e me tote ne komprenas pro quo on remplasigabus lu da "sodoborato"..?! Kande tala desoficaligo eventis? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe --001a114b072c1f377c05453554a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara samideani,
Wikivortaro dicas ke la vorto "bo= raxo" esas nun obsoleta.


Nu, "boraxo" esas tote internaciona e m= e tote ne komprenas pro quo on remplasigabus lu da "sodoborato"..= ?!

Kande tala desoficaligo eventis?

<= div>Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
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Kara Gilles-Philippe Morin,
 
Dyer explikas ke rampo e pento esas esence sama, ma rampo acensas, pento decensas. Me kredas ke la apta vorto dependas ye onua vidpunto. "Ni esas proxim pento" esas averto pri risko di falo. "Ni esas proxim rampo" indikas ke por avancar ni bezonus klimar. La defino di rampo da Pesch esas plu bona kam lua defino di pento. Me longtempe opinionas ke la vortaro Ido-Angla da Dyer esas plu bona, "fidinda", kam ta da Pesch.
 
Pesch esis tradukisto, ma forsan il ne trovis multa tempo por lua dicionario qua tamen semble facesis dum 30 yari (1934/1964) ed en tri landi.
 
Segun la granda vortaro Franca-Ido da L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat, "pente" esas inklineso.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:35:28 -0500: 
Kara samideani,
Me havas problemo kun la vorto "pento".


Segun Pesch, "pento" esas:
Direciono di plano, qua formacas angulo obliqua ye horizontalo.


Tamen, to esas la defino di la Franca vorto "pente" (qua en Angla esas "slope").


Pesch ja prenis ta defino de lua Franca dicionario (pente, pagino 1710):
Direction d'un plan formant un angle oblique avec l'horizontale.

Regretinde, kande me konsultas Dyer, me vidas ke "pento" ne esas "slope" ma, segun la defino di Pesch, "pento decensanta" (downward slope). Lu esas do, segun Dyer, antonimo di "rampo".


Do ka la vera senco di la Ido "pento" esas "pento decensanta" (pente descendante)?


Quo esas la vera vorto por la Franca "pente" e la Angla "slope"?


Yen rezumo di la problemo segun Dyer:
pente descendante = downward slope = pento
pente ascendante = upward slope = rampo
pente = slope = ???


Yen rezumo di la interpreto da Pesch:
pente descendante = downward slope = pento decensanta
pente ascendante = upward slope = rampo
pente = slope = pento


Quale solvar ta problemo?


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
 
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Segun mea savo, "dinosauro" esas nur propozo (tamen probable bona).
Robert C.
 
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:46:00 -0500: 
Kara samideani,
Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro:


Lu dicas ke la vorto "dinosaurio" esas obsoleta e ke "dinosauro" ja oficaleskis.


Ka to esas vera? Ka "dinosauro" oficaleskis, o ka to esas ankore nur deziro?


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
 
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Rampo esas inklinajo acensanta, kontre ke pento esas inklinajo = decensanta, do "inklinajo" esas forsan la generala vorto quan tu serchas. = 2017-01-03 18:35 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguo= listo] : > > > Kara samideani, > Me havas pro= blemo kun la vorto "pento". > > Segun Pesch, "pento" esas: > *Direciono di = plano, qua formacas angulo obliqua ye horizontalo.* > > Tamen, to esas la d= efino di la Franca vorto "pente" (qua en Angla esas > "slope"). > > Pesch j= a prenis ta defino de lua Franca dicionario (*pente*, pagino 1710): > *Dire= ction d'un plan formant un angle oblique avec l'horizontale.* > > Regretind= e, kande me konsultas Dyer, me vidas ke "pento" ne esas "slope" > ma, segun= la defino di Pesch, "pento decensanta" (downward slope). Lu esas > do, seg= un Dyer, antonimo di "rampo". > > Do ka la vera senco di la Ido "pento" esa= s "pento decensanta" (pente > descendante)? > > Quo esas la vera vorto por = la Franca "pente" e la Angla "slope"? > > Yen rezumo di la problemo segun D= yer: > pente descendante =3D downward slope =3D pento > pente ascendante = =3D upward slope =3D rampo > pente =3D slope =3D ??? > > Yen rezumo di la i= nterpreto da Pesch: > pente descendante =3D downward slope =3D pento decens= anta > pente ascendante =3D upward slope =3D rampo > pente =3D slope =3D pe= nto > > Quale solvar ta problemo? > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philipp= e > > > --001a1141d564b38a130545377188 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
La defi= ni di "pento" e "rampo" che Dyer esas cherpita de Progr= eso, do li esas oficala. Rampo esas inklinajo acensanta, kontre ke pento es= as inklinajo decensanta, do "inklinajo" esas forsan la generala v= orto quan tu serchas.

2017-01-03 18:35 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Kara sam= ideani,
Me havas problemo kun la vorto "pento".
Segun Pesch, "pento" esas:
Direciono di = plano, qua formacas angulo obliqua ye horizontalo.
Tamen, to esas la defino di la Franca vorto "pente&quo= t; (qua en Angla esas "slope").

Pesch ja= prenis ta defino de lua Franca dicionario (pente, pagino 1710):
Direction d'un plan formant un angle oblique avec l'horiz= ontale.

Regretinde, kande me konsultas = Dyer, me vidas ke "pento" ne esas "slope" ma, segun la = defino di Pesch, "pento decensanta" (downward slope). Lu esas do,= segun Dyer, antonimo di "rampo".

Do ka = la vera senco di la Ido "pento" esas "pento decensanta"= (pente descendante)?

Quo esas la vera vorto por l= a Franca "pente" e la Angla "slope"?

Yen rezumo di la problemo segun Dyer:
pente descendante = =3D downward slope =3D pento
pente ascendante =3D upward slope = =3D rampo
pente =3D slope =3D ???

Yen re= zumo di la interpreto da Pesch:
pente descendante =3D downward slope =3D= pento decensanta
pente ascendante =3D upward slope =3D rampo
pente =3D slope =3D pento

Quale solvar ta p= roblemo?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Phi= lippe


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La senci diferas. Segun mea kompreno, registrago koncernas registro (sorto di not-libro). On enrejistras sono (parolo, muziko e cetere) o, segun la Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), ica vorto (1931) havas amba senci. Prefere ol havas o havez nur senco sonala.
Robert C.
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:50:50 -0500: 
Kara samideani,
Me deziras savar, ka la vorto "enrejistrar" remplasis la vorti "registr-agar" e "en-registr-igar" (segun Dyer) kande lu oficaleskis?


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
 
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Tue, 03 Jan 2017 13:40:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:40:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:40:00 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e56f2a5729f0545378297 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=Q6iF4CqmrCWtaFktcgFxs6CHDAj_y0bU2SqirsOQuDwvdxbZJc7MOA X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a114e56f2a5729f0545378297 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, "dinosauro" esas nura propozo da nia regretata Stevenson che Linguolis= to ed en Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en SIL yene: **dinosaur*/*o* [*Pale= o.*] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni *Saurischia* ed *Ornithischi= a*, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis en la *ekosistemi di *mezozoiko dum c.= 160 milion yari [a *dinosaur* | f *dinosaure* | g *Dinosaurier* | h *dinos= aurio* | i *dinosauro* | r =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0=D0=B2=D1=80= | e *dinosa=C5=ADro*]. *Rem.* *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna dinosaurio, = segun propozo da Steveson che *Linguolisto*([1]). *dinosauro esas ya konfor= ma al nomi en quar dil sis fontolingui (afir), al Greka *etimono (=CF=83=CE= =B1=E1=BF=A6=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80=9D), al nomi di multa= *dinosauri (brontosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) e di altra grand= a *reptilii di *mezozoiko (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas plu facile pron= uncebla en la pluralo. & Stevenson (*P* *rogreso* 332, p. 15, 17; 334, p. 1= 0). ------------------------------ ([1]) *http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/gr= oup/linguolisto/message/1084 * 2017-01-03 21:32 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [= linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Segun mea savo, "dinosa= uro" esas nur propozo (tamen probable bona). > Robert C. > > > Gilles-Phili= ppe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 > 13:46:00 -05= 00: > Kara samideani, > Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro: > https://= io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dinosaurio > > > > Lu dicas ke la vorto "dinosaurio"= esas obsoleta e ke "dinosauro" ja > oficaleskis. > > > Ka to esas vera? Ka= "dinosauro" oficaleskis, o ka to esas ankore nur > deziro? > > > Kun kordi= ala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > > --001a114e56f2a5729f0545378297 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, "dinosauro" esas nura propozo da nia regret= ata Stevenson che Linguolisto ed en Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en SIL yen= e:=C2=A0


*dinosaur/o [Paleo.] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni Saurischia ed Ornithischia, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis en la *ekosistemi di *m= ezozoiko dum c. 160 milion yari [<= span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-family:"bell mt",serif;font-varian= t-numeric:normal;font-variant-caps:small-caps;color:blue">a dinosaur | f dinosaure | g Dinosaurier | h dinosaurio | i dinosauro | r= =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0=D0=B2=D1=80 | <= /span>e dinosa=C5=ADro]. Rem. *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna dinosaurio, segun= propozo da Steveson che Linguolisto= ([1]). *dinosauro esas ya konforma al nomi en quar dil sis fontoli= ngui (afir), al Greka *etimono (=CF=83=CE=B1=E1=BF=A6=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80=9D), = al nomi di multa *dinosauri (brontosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) = e di altra granda *reptilii di *mezozoiko (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas= plu facile pronuncebla en la pluralo. & Stevenson (Progreso 332, p.=C2=A01= 5, 17; 334, p.=C2=A010).


2017-01-03 21:32 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

S= egun mea savo, "dinosauro" esas nur propozo (tamen probable bona)= .
Robert C.
<= div>=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philip= pe Morin gphmorin@g= mail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:46:00 -0500:=C2=A0
Kara samideani,
Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivort= aro:
https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dinosaurio

<= /div>
=

Lu dicas ke la vorto "dinosaurio" esas obsoleta e= ke "dinosauro" ja oficaleskis.


Ka to esas= vera? Ka "dinosauro" oficaleskis, o ka to esas ankore nur deziro= ?


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe=
=C2=A0

=

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La vorto "boraxo" trovesas en adminime sis vortari Idala.
Me ne kredas ke ol esas obsoleta.
Wikivortaro ya semblas inkluzar stranjaji.
Voluntez akumular prefere cirkume sis questioni po mesajo por faciligar respondo (tamen ne necesa de me).
Robert C.
 
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 14:03:50 -0500: 
Kara samideani,
Wikivortaro dicas ke la vorto "boraxo" esas nun obsoleta.




Nu, "boraxo" esas tote internaciona e me tote ne komprenas pro quo on remplasigabus lu da "sodoborato"..?!


Kande tala desoficaligo eventis?


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
 
From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4664 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 17114 invoked by uid 102); 4 Jan 2017 04:39:29 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2017 04:39:29 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 30509 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2017 04:39:29 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.121) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2017 04:39:29 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.42 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: QHBTWlcWLDuEESS3ErhzMbj6vDlrGImFojsr_wdAO8qielPe 6kifzcRQN8QC.q_9Ms6Gw9hR90rFP1HDam7297ie3lsqTivi5rXGB7zI0QIy Y3B9GdXLrSgTC6F9CayPcBCZeA3p6m0DNUNviD1L4.H36b0uUHvItFjTIHAk lvPnZMBePWViPAHepYr6jM8o19DmrdWwrQQVy4DWxKsm1I9NV4cgSpQtIKsX 77qUZmamODFy9ie6rK1VqZo2C0a2VMGHNgHz6rcoRRqXfWbemUMLYKRN5Qhm _93bamBR.SI9ME9IUOcYUCh1pSPiDQFt1O36FB4BW7p0wxuYNFsJFouQg2_n qqsBZB_FVZZwcecT43R47dFrEUHhmlyx3gP894px827JhXlNAZKYoZq0s0wQ PjldFVN_jq6UTgmFbedFOj7zsVGK55.3jXxpDWup.Bs1HBFQu4syc3bhdDf1 VyWQkBFfK648KRHwxMzi0OlpT.6GMpld7Qqiz5udRMuyKUhoOp6XeMNWPGvn xv2Tg4vhkIO_lalR.rFA1WIxYAdMpt2F8rNR_TZS8CZBpkbHRZOZ3vNf6483 nvrKPkVj6mt0jnHseNj.1Nj515fQgMSUYPnbafB6M1wgvYwxXdMOPgkicc06 bzYgxldh1FmzK0eOs9BEi1ga0BtMyc8fwqZHOUzAeI2ZcVlKUNkJOnDsrTI4 .l1qbBWefezh_o71zH1mvMNR3TN0yIlhjEuO1eHS7y5hbZpZzQ4F.ml3w7vf _4N0ufZrsni.yN9HxTPzaI7StuLknTFH8g22WvsW0SiMjJ51CzwsqMNfYg1A 5aj51oeJdxJaWGZTJfAWZ0NpCMHmfbLn6s9tx_MmZ5Wzx1H8PdEdNZhimIyb iRGL4SDQHuqnMj9fm9znhHFNGaHW7u6Gy.130FwUFh4N9xV9ZJvsH5kt.8Ay u1w58ljiQtLGhrD0_rwz78UcsMuUL.Zz20q1_mBGlABYZYi73qLj5byON_1S tszAukpDx.gD6yRci7yjsJxG8b22NJS5z7gTHO8zNCX8QBc3LIkiPQrEcU8D WS4HxsHOh0GAe4f8MHMiVsaIt_CF6N.2mqEe.X6hh9qDTmNjRsAgySiITxOg UIBrZo_82cgd9RZJdq3iwBYAR1_aFDLPRLsYiXzJV7dbLzsjYyqVoRJ9mzNb uv_DkA2Y0jIJ8YcPURIFS2zGlPT8FRhgY9buqd9U75KUgWByb0WRD6zA71Rq 6eGcJ1ZV6xDWHo8wnn6Y8ghby2WvfpAUzIZ0pRp12EeKqJ1VOAgTDostBe6V 0vuBchlK1HQn3N0Eqs4lz_ti.ubXIY7f4p9xvdl9APATlk_pKEHlfWBPHx6j je.2s.7LJSI70iX68LDq0ClpR5QcYLuE0jklhWm7sWc6qqzPw3OvXXWlxQFa .u2lCmkxTjcrmst6XoMrKZMZWXDq4QBexfGPVAkVom3H9LhycFGnCat3W6yM ypST89FAz7.ryKmCIj70qT2PnjWlQZ_n8zaHnk7ljp47ylnXE3wuO19Ofir6 MEe99Yphf6BMXroBYmwgzDCjlsKt3G8ji07.US9bHKod0VbFJbw9YeX9BeqK VwCoBSdHnSQ- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f42.google.com) (209.85.215.42) by mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 04:39:29 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f42.google.com with SMTP id b14so297724146lfg.2 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 20:39:28 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=lRtcQzITGKLDTrtfpM7TVepChycFNiEXDxSgnda9B8U=; b=Ov3RP0Z+exLejYmPCY7PQze5cD4ZMCboOZ3eNUoDHTqmdUT5HFvfFvbPuZPV1ggYD1 90bO3ffohbj1bBZ9Q9inbEbz8KlUx3XIu0HgcasHE/fcI7jwitQeflG2Dt57WeqzzD5M RsY2uDKGFTZd/6HK2v0mlOKoqwbiKLwOQsvYzFQ7kmNAZa3U5hVQ7IlwkMCwGzvKCmt7 hu+cV1Y9SCFWKbt9EKzZBDO9ikAJ2Sj1m6pCr49MMvd8xyCh+7GLTyArQU59NXlmzKKf 2YU0feRBlQLM7QP9nl9uEDHAnX57zDV18VDetS390Qj2pPYAAGZOgA+HbBQWCoJZpWsg IRoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ4ODp9yYP4J8b8wGlRQ5ybOLozmQKc/iFODEGsrnNf3745UOGo0PS24LTACKL7PjBovEqLXsqzX+MwzA== X-Received: by 10.25.16.28 with SMTP id f28mr528706lfi.89.1483504767109; Tue, 03 Jan 2017 20:39:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Jan 2017 20:39:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 23:39:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f8fa4aa8f5505453d5e6d Subject: Re: [linguo] pento X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113f8fa4aa8f5505453d5e6d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Robert e kara Gon=C3=A7alo, Danko pro via respondi. To konfirmas mea = hipotezo, ke Pesch uzis la defino di la vorto "pente" sen sequar la vera se= nco en Ido. Pro to, me transportis la defino di "pento" a la vorto "inklin= eso" e me donis a "pento" nova defino, tote inversa a ta di "rampo": inkli= neso: Direciono di plano, qua formacas angulo obliqua ye horizontalo. rampo= : Sur voyo, plano qua formacas angulo obliqua kun la horizontalo, e quan on= u esas acensonta. pento: Sur voyo, plano qua formacas angulo obliqua kun la= horizontalo, e quan onu esas decensonta. Me esperas ke ta defini esos plu= klara. Gilles-Philippe On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neve= s gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > = > > La defini di "pento" e "rampo" che Dyer esas cherpita de Progreso, do l= i > esas oficala. Rampo esas inklinajo acensanta, kontre ke pento esas > in= klinajo decensanta, do "inklinajo" esas forsan la generala vorto quan tu > = serchas. > > 2017-01-03 18:35 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmai= l.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kara samide= ani, >> Me havas problemo kun la vorto "pento". >> >> Segun Pesch, "pento" = esas: >> *Direciono di plano, qua formacas angulo obliqua ye horizontalo.* = >> >> Tamen, to esas la defino di la Franca vorto "pente" (qua en Angla esa= s >> "slope"). >> >> Pesch ja prenis ta defino de lua Franca dicionario (*p= ente*, pagino >> 1710): >> *Direction d'un plan formant un angle oblique av= ec l'horizontale.* >> >> Regretinde, kande me konsultas Dyer, me vidas ke "= pento" ne esas "slope" >> ma, segun la defino di Pesch, "pento decensanta" = (downward slope). Lu esas >> do, segun Dyer, antonimo di "rampo". >> >> Do = ka la vera senco di la Ido "pento" esas "pento decensanta" (pente >> descen= dante)? >> >> Quo esas la vera vorto por la Franca "pente" e la Angla "slop= e"? >> >> Yen rezumo di la problemo segun Dyer: >> pente descendante =3D do= wnward slope =3D pento >> pente ascendante =3D upward slope =3D rampo >> pe= nte =3D slope =3D ??? >> >> Yen rezumo di la interpreto da Pesch: >> pente = descendante =3D downward slope =3D pento decensanta >> pente ascendante =3D= upward slope =3D rampo >> pente =3D slope =3D pento >> >> Quale solvar ta = problemo? >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> > > --001a113f8fa4aa8f5505453d5e6d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert e kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro via respond= i.

To konfirmas mea hipotezo, ke Pesch uzis la def= ino di la vorto "pente" sen sequar la vera senco en Ido.

Pro to, me transportis la defino di "pento" a la= vorto "inklineso" e me donis a "pento" nova defino, to= te inversa a ta di "rampo":

inklineso:= =C2=A0Direciono di plano, qua formacas angulo obliqua ye horizontalo.
=
rampo:=C2=A0Sur voyo, plano qua formacas angulo obliqua kun la horizon= talo, e quan onu esas acensonta.
pento:=C2=A0Sur voyo, plano qua = formacas angulo obliqua kun la horizontalo, e quan onu esas decensonta.

Me esperas ke ta defini esos plu klara.
Gilles-Philippe

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

La defini di &= quot;pento" e "rampo" che Dyer esas cherpita de Progreso, do= li esas oficala. Rampo esas inklinajo acensanta, kontre ke pento esas inkl= inajo decensanta, do "inklinajo" esas forsan la generala vorto qu= an tu serchas.

=
2017-01-03 18:35 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin= gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:<= br>
=
=C2=A0
=
=

Kara samideani,
Me havas problemo kun la= vorto "pento".

Segun Pesch, "pento= " esas:
Direciono di plano, qua formacas angulo obliqua y= e horizontalo.

Tamen, to esas la de= fino di la Franca vorto "pente" (qua en Angla esas "slope&qu= ot;).

Pesch ja prenis ta defino de lua Franca dici= onario (pente, pagino 1710):
Direction d'un plan fo= rmant un angle oblique avec l'horizontale.

Regretinde, kande me konsultas Dyer, me vidas ke "pento" = ne esas "slope" ma, segun la defino di Pesch, "pento decensa= nta" (downward slope). Lu esas do, segun Dyer, antonimo di "rampo= ".

Do ka la vera senco di la Ido "pento&= quot; esas "pento decensanta" (pente descendante)?

=
Quo esas la vera vorto por la Franca "pente" e la Angl= a "slope"?

Yen rezumo di la problemo seg= un Dyer:
pente descendante =3D downward slope =3D pento
pente ascendante =3D upward slope =3D rampo
pente =3D slope =3D = ???

Yen rezumo di la interpreto da Pesch:
pente= descendante =3D downward slope =3D pento decensanta
pente ascend= ante =3D upward slope =3D rampo
pente =3D slope =3D pento

Quale solvar ta problemo?

Kun ko= rdiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

=


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Me korektigis la Wi= kivortaro konseque. "Dinosaurio" nun esas normala vorto, dum ke *dinosauro = markizesas kom neoficala. https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dinosaurio https:= //io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dinosauro "dinosauro" ya havas espelo plu interna= ciona, e me ne dubitas ke uladie on oficaligos lu. Gon=C3=A7alo, ka me pov= as komprenar ke *sauri, en la defino, supozesas remplasar "saurii"? La lite= ro "i" en "saurio" esas ankore tre internaciona (DEFIS). Kun kordiala salu= ti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-03 16:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64= @gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Yes, "dinos= auro" esas nura propozo da nia regretata Stevenson che > Linguolisto ed en = Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en SIL yene: > > > **dinosaur*/*o* [*Paleo.*] = Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni > *Saurischia* ed *Ornithischia*,= ofte tre granda, qui preponderis en la > *ekosistemi di *mezozoiko dum c. = 160 milion yari [a *dinosaur* | f > *dinosaure* | g *Dinosaurier* | h *dino= saurio* | i *dinosauro* | r > =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0=D0=B2=D1= =80 | e *dinosa=C5=ADro*]. *Rem.* *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna > dinosau= rio, segun propozo da Steveson che *Linguolisto*([1]). *dinosauro > esas ya= konforma al nomi en quar dil sis fontolingui (afir), al Greka > *etimono (= =CF=83=CE=B1=E1=BF=A6=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80=9D), al nomi= di multa *dinosauri (brontosauro, > *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) e di = altra granda *reptilii di *mezozoiko > (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas pl= u facile pronuncebla en la pluralo. & Stevenson > (*P**rogreso* 332, p. 15,= 17; 334, p. 10). > > ------------------------------ > > ([1]) *http://tech= .groups.yahoo.com/group/linguolisto/message/1084 > * > > 2017-01-03 21:32 GMT+00:00 'Robe= rt C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >= > >> >> Segun mea savo, "dinosauro" esas nur propozo (tamen probable bona).= >> Robert C. >> >> >> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolist= o] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 >> 13:46:00 -0500: >> Kara samideani, >> Me trovis la = yena pagino en Wikivortaro: >> https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dinosaurio >>= >> >> >> Lu dicas ke la vorto "dinosaurio" esas obsoleta e ke "dinosauro" = ja >> oficaleskis. >> >> >> Ka to esas vera? Ka "dinosauro" oficaleskis, o = ka to esas ankore nur >> deziro? >> >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Ph= ilippe >> >> >> > > --f403045ea0aaba63db05453d794e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert e kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la informo.=

Me korektigis la Wikivortaro konseque. "Dino= saurio" nun esas normala vorto, dum ke *dinosauro markizesas kom neofi= cala.


"dinosauro" ya hav= as espelo plu internaciona, e me ne dubitas ke uladie on oficaligos lu.

Gon=C3=A7alo, ka me povas komprenar ke *sauri, en la = defino, supozesas remplasar "saurii"? La litero "i" en = "saurio" esas ankore tre internaciona (DEFIS).

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-03 16:40 GMT-05:00 = Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:<= br>
=C2=A0
<= p>

Yes, "dinosauro" esas nura propozo da nia = regretata Stevenson che Linguolisto ed en Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en S= IL yene:=C2=A0


*dinosaur/o [Pa= leo.] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni Saurischia= ed Ornithischia, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis en la *ekosistemi= di *mezozoiko dum c. 160 milion yari [a dinosaur | f dinosaure | g Dinosaurier | = h dinosaurio | i dinos= auro | r =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B7= =D0=B0=D0=B2=D1=80 | e dinosa= =C5=ADro]. Rem. *<= span>dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna dinos= aurio, segun propozo da Steveson che Linguolisto(= [1]). <= /span>*dinosauro esas ya konforma al nom= i en quar dil sis fontolingui (afir), al Greka *etimono = (=CF=83=CE=B1=E1=BF=A6=CF=81=CE= =BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80=9D), al nomi di multa *dinosauri (br= ontosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) e di altra granda *reptilii di = *mezozoiko (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas plu facile pronuncebla en la p= luralo. & Ste= venson (Progreso 332, p.=C2=A015, 17; 334, p.=C2=A010)= .


2017-01-03 21:32 GMT= +00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroup= s.com>:
=C2=A0

Segun = mea savo, "dinosauro" esas nur propozo (tamen probable bona).
Robert C.
= =C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe = Morin gphmorin@gmai= l.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 13:46:00 -0500:=C2=A0
Kara samideani,
Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro:
https= ://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dinosaurio



Lu dicas ke la vorto "dinosaurio" esas obsoleta e ke "dino= sauro" ja oficaleskis.


Ka to esas vera? Ka &quo= t;dinosauro" oficaleskis, o ka to esas ankore nur deziro?
=

<= br>
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
=C2=A0

=
=

=
<= /blockquote>

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Pesch anke donas amba senci a la vorto:= (tr.) (1) Enskribar o transskribar oficale en registri. (2) Dicesas anke = pri ula aparati qui notas ocili, movi diversa. Yes, ta du defini venas de = la Franca dicionario. La dicionario sugestas mem la frazo "enrejistrar ulo = en sua memorado" kom senco figurala di "enskribar o transskribar oficale en= registri". Me vidas nula problemo uzar la sama vorto por la du senci. Pra= ktikale, me vidas nula difero inter uzar "enrejistrar", "registr-agar" o "e= n-registr-agar" nam sume li havas la sama skopo: konservar ulo (sono, nomo,= e.c.) en registro. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Tue, Jan 3, 2= 017 at 4:39 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com> wrote: > > > La senci diferas. Segun mea kompreno, registra= go koncernas registro (sorto > di not-libro). On enrejistras sono (parolo, = muziko e cetere) o, segun la > Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), ica vorto (1931= ) havas amba senci. Prefere ol > havas o havez nur senco sonala. > Robert C= . > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2= 017 > 13:50:50 -0500: > Kara samideani, > Me deziras savar, ka la vorto "en= rejistrar" remplasis la vorti > "registr-agar" e "en-registr-igar" (segun D= yer) kande lu oficaleskis? > > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > >= > > --001a113c9824551f7b05453da8d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert,
Danko pro la respondo. Pesch anke donas a= mba senci a la vorto:

(tr.) (1) Enskribar o t= ransskribar oficale en registri.
(2) Dicesas anke pri ula aparati= qui notas ocili, movi diversa.

Yes, ta du d= efini venas de la Franca dicionario. La dicionario sugestas mem la frazo &q= uot;enrejistrar ulo en sua memorado" kom senco figurala di "enskr= ibar o transskribar oficale en registri".

Me = vidas nula problemo uzar la sama vorto por la du senci. Praktikale, me vida= s nula difero inter uzar "enrejistrar", "registr-agar" = o "en-registr-agar" nam sume li havas la sama skopo: konservar ul= o (sono, nomo, e.c.) en registro.

Kun kordiala sal= uti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 4:39 PM, 'Robert C.'= ; ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_-2436998298934947901ygrp-text">

La senci diferas. Segun mea kompreno, regis= trago koncernas registro (sorto di not-libro). On enrejistras sono (parolo,= muziko e cetere) o, segun la Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), ica vorto (1931)= havas amba senci. Prefere ol havas o havez nur senco sonala.
=
Robert C.
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue,= 3 Jan 2017 13:50:50 -0500:=C2=A0
Kara samide= ani,
Me deziras savar, ka la vortto "enrejistrar" remplasis= la vorti "registr-agar" e "en-registr-igar" (segun Dye= r) kande lu oficaleskis?


Kun kordiala saluti,=
Gilles-Philippe
=C2=A0<= /div>


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Me modifikis la Wikivortaro konseque.= https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/boraxo Nu, me preferas uzar aparta mesaji= por ke me plu facile sequez la diskuti. Tale, me povas facile savar ke on= ne ankore respondis a la yena mesaji: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= linguolisto/conversations/topics/4597 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/l= inguolisto/conversations/topics/4602 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/li= nguolisto/conversations/topics/4610 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lin= guolisto/conversations/topics/4618 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ling= uolisto/conversations/messages/4626 Ne desquietigez: tala inundi de mesaji= e de questioni esos rara. Amikale, Gilles-Philippe On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 a= t 4:45 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogr= oups.com> wrote: > > > La vorto "boraxo" trovesas en adminime sis vortari = Idala. > Me ne kredas ke ol esas obsoleta. > Wikivortaro ya semblas inkluza= r stranjaji. > Voluntez akumular prefere cirkume sis questioni po mesajo po= r faciligar > respondo (tamen ne necesa de me). > Robert C. > > > Gilles-Ph= ilippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan 2017 > 14:03:50 = -0500: > Kara samideani, > Wikivortaro dicas ke la vorto "boraxo" esas nun = obsoleta. > > > https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/boraxo > > > > Nu, "boraxo" = esas tote internaciona e me tote ne komprenas pro quo on > remplasigabus lu= da "sodoborato"..?! > > > Kande tala desoficaligo eventis? > > > Kun kordi= ala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > > --f403045e57fe00411e05453dccec Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert,
Danko pro vua respondo.

Me modifikis la Wikivortaro konseque.


Nu, me preferas uzar aparta mesaj= i por ke me plu facile sequez la diskuti.

Tale, me= povas facile savar ke on ne ankore respondis a la yena mesaji:
<= a href=3D"https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/top= ics/4597">https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/top= ics/4597
https://g= roups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/topics/4610

Ne desquietigez: tala inundi de mesaji e de questioni esos rara.

Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at = 4:45 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue= .me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =
=

La vorto "boraxo= " trovesas en adminime sis vortari Idala.
Me ne kredas ke ol esas obsoleta.
= Wikivortaro ya semblas inkluzar stranjaji.
Voluntez akumular prefere c= irkume sis questioni po mesajo por faciligar respondo (tamen ne necesa de m= e).
Robert C.
=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 3 Jan = 2017 14:03:50 -0500:=C2=A0
Kara samideani,<= /span>
Wikivortaro dicas ke la vorto "boraxo" esas nun obsoleta.<= /span>




Nu, "boraxo" esas tote internaciona e me tote= ne komprenas pro quo on remplasigabus lu da "sodoborato"..?!


Kande tala desoficaligo eventis?
Kun= kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
=C2=A0

<= /div>

--f403045e57fe00411e05453dccec-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4668 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 4107 invoked by uid 102); 4 Jan 2017 08:52:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2017 08:52:53 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 29481 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2017 08:52:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2017 08:52:53 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.42 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: DM6Gj3AWLDuxHYU2SJ6Tnag6ne2HY04rfqvjx1Z4ygnd60If M0VALEutRaDTKMWbHUQQiqBAKS92WDofzbQudRJVASo5Y_VdtMGiYgGDbR5b bSckwoxbBtwiR8M4wpFPyeoXioP0dkZIaBI4J4L4Q6uuhnMAS13UbNDSyXNX qZIP_wpzFxTl2_OyWNsSOUuMdDooHCmksYLArL3S1yep2f8.ga.hXRDfkckV fWrFn.k0TGvHcerKASe_sCgEWUm78Rwg7zZpRspHtcMtFZvj9dLhTE.9bwa. qbeBkywUKyVtqTs7jBWnY3prN3z54N8pSCMxoSfRDKTwSQ273tLRD7jOb0mj urVz1uiXZHon.nhVSDUG8vtgEsOAz3Ov1NNRrOekvmWb0fOzPwfIqQQeQEuk CJH5RZXMUmSQoCBMJNHn.W8n5F4FCMwPHwT8e69oKodjeoq5b1beZKC7LZQV uw404Vdue7TLYBBgpadc2zaKL9Aw5Ziq6MY3nyrSSw07mHpdF_ddBoD.fPBr z25b8KzVu_y11jjoWH_xH1STD3McOE9nK5amUS2IOgwEJ6QLnyxKnWrIx5s0 gjxmjQBBf1xlyMjbD4dKK5GZx1fJ0iUH7bRZ9QerpNaaMjQxnKg9XuS5a8is TZBPD5LdrBPTihsOcAYaoDgWN1YuDWSLIgcD1HfE.KJcLtpJLl21SgarHWaJ BI.HHaKUJCWgTtvID.GU7arlXvF8Uw4hB9g3NU3LfSOxFZxMphf.HPmn6F3r m6DXzG13xWnQHyCrZiyX6L8U6ry28jJv8K1ghf6fGIIy3IAywStImu64tcGF XWWmjM9MbQaprfrUdPVsFNQCE07a3YUmVHG9MFCzQ.LJFssi3PK_ol59HqdV EURA2WzvCJK25O_nd6fMWCG.maamTzKPJnDDx2Rb1XJhFHDD5XjF3.9ygpu3 suFviUp13GgLPBqnJG9vcxkDOtW7RBUu2_tqXWxthb5xYCQ89VGH42SPSExu EVE9GQHetfPDKJXRtAKMIoEhtzieDm5R04K6wovl5foITaCm8vAx3l516vDy kEmAQMU6R5tuVVURRAAUGpPq28Bq4UcrkVw2wKdIcQRHIVWRncS.qMEn9SfZ 7LJ9AC9C72DriCBJwnP7Vt9YjJ8dXI94kdvczyRH0Ge260G7fcAaUKeWzMPl rAmrZvYFOtGIuQrG34CilCosOOhM9u63uLLL27se9NkkLSaWw4CRD_ULvaX8 LCRZtpJ5TTc71Y_cb0zt0eV6tPTlfFSdTwwmidB7Kr7UJBbh7l9nXZhxiGyn pTeQtZb7Mu1yeNX3jK7Dsp6oIoV7mHA4NAixzr6M1nuP33Q0eZ0csgjthAP. uvdiQDekSw-- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f42.google.com) (209.85.213.42) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 08:52:53 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f42.google.com with SMTP id y197so135960747vky.2 for ; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 00:52:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=R8ZE2wyB9ivhu+a5V4WpUu2RdDvZE/vAWXDk6yFjWko=; b=BfiSn6F00OIkJcqlwNNsy5wVg4ZBZ+Mq2IWykuIhCvMF0u2Zr8s9BGPPdvHo6Ud1c8 utWZKY4kL7tFOGPGFEfOjgeB3UwZiHvVevBcyxdMqP30FXf38FU09WFshcHNUHhKL8P5 Q8nokAuxvHXN6/e3GPm9ouZFFeNLzRpeevAt0bsn953l5ue7Q0KNx/4X1bOqtZU6kOzC x6duxlekcV7dLu9Uk5BiP0e4g+1y/w+vnO/0390OcbTXPIVOV8mp/Y6gKH8GCPyG6e33 Qb0IlhVpfgWmp4y30x5s0AmQhSYUZS8ylSdnrbugKSoh4K353C4YSs9slzKktD6gwblc 4Mpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKy7ZQtA3gJlH5DHtCDwz8/QE2NZ32wptdSbkXEkIA1cHS/KD3J78Q9/cTfdCcm4MPG+m2Y3HtD3Xw9Hg== X-Received: by 10.31.114.140 with SMTP id n134mr20645818vkc.129.1483519972634; Wed, 04 Jan 2017 00:52:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 00:52:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 08:52:52 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c149874fc77c0054540e871 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=e4jy_CKGE36vC-JIVNdX68TZoltCSrsBo3Ta4LrclHEVV1X448gCew X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c149874fc77c0054540e871 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gilles-Phipippe, en SIL me ya propozis *sauro vice "saurio" (quankam olca e= sas AFGHI) por konformigar ol kun "brontosauro", *dinosauro, *stegosauro, *= tiranosauro. Yen la koncernata artiklo en SIL: **saur*/*o* [*Zool.*] Komun= a nomo di singla *reptilio ne-tortuga e ne-serpenta [a *saurian* | f *sauri= en* | g *Saurier* | h *saurio* | i *sauro* | e *sa=C5=ADro*]. 2017-01-04= 4:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Gon=C3=A7alo, ka me povas komprenar ke *s= auri, en la defino, supozesas > remplasar "saurii"? La litero "i" en "sauri= o" esas ankore tre internaciona > (DEFIS). > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gille= s-Philippe > > 2017-01-03 16:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail= .com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> >> Yes, "dinosa= uro" esas nura propozo da nia regretata Stevenson che >> Linguolisto ed en = Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en SIL yene: >> >> >> **dinosaur*/*o* [*Paleo.= *] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni >> *Saurischia* ed *Ornithisch= ia*, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis en la >> *ekosistemi di *mezozoiko du= m c. 160 milion yari [A *dinosaur* | F >> *dinosaure* | G *Dinosaurier* | H= *dinosaurio* | I *dinosauro* | R >> =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0= =D0=B2=D1=80 | E *dinosa=C5=ADro*]. *Rem.* *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna = >> dinosaurio, segun propozo da Steveson che *Linguolisto*([1]). *dinosauro= >> esas ya konforma al nomi en quar dil sis fontolingui (AFIR), al Greka >= > *etimono (=CF=83=CE=B1=E1=BF=A6=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80= =9D), al nomi di multa *dinosauri (brontosauro, >> *stegosauro, *tiranosaur= o, e.c.) e di altra granda *reptilii di *mezozoiko >> (iktiosauro, plesiosa= uro) ed esas plu facile pronuncebla en la pluralo. & Stevenson >> (*P**rogr= eso* 332, p. 15, 17; 334, p. 10). >> >> ------------------------------ >> >= > ([1]) *http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linguolisto/message/1084 >> * >> >> --94eb2c149874fc77c0054540e871 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gilles-Phipippe, en SIL me ya propoz= is *sauro vice "saurio" (quankam olca esas AFGHI) por konformigar= ol kun "brontosauro", *dinosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro. Yen= la koncernata artiklo en SIL:

*saur/o [Zool.] Komuna nomo di singla *reptilio ne-tortuga e ne-serpenta [a = saurian | f saurie= n | g Saurier = | h saurio | i sauro | e sa=C5=ADro].
=


2017-01-04 4:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <l= inguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, ka me povas kompre= nar ke *sauri, en la defino, supozesas remplasar "saurii"? La lit= ero "i" en "saurio" esas ankore tre internaciona (DEFIS= ).

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
<= /div>

2017-01-03 1= 6:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <<= a href=3D"mailto:linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">linguolisto= @yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Yes, "dinosauro" esas nura propozo= da nia regretata Stevenson che Linguolisto ed en Progreso, olquan me inklu= zis en SIL yene:=C2=A0


*dinosaur/o<= /b> [Paleo.] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni Saur= ischia ed Ornithischia, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis en la *= ekosistemi di *mezozoiko dum c. 160 milion yari = [A dinosaur | F dinosaure | G Dinosaurier = | H dinosaurio | I dinosauro | R =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD= =D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0=D0=B2=D1=80 | E dinosa=C5=ADro]. Rem. *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna dinosaurio, segun propozo da Steve= son che Linguolisto([1]). *dinosauro esas ya = konforma al nomi en quar dil sis fontolingui (AFIR), al = Greka *etimono (=CF=83=CE=B1=E1= =BF=A6=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80=9D), al nomi di multa= *dinosauri (brontosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) e di altra grand= a *reptilii di *mezozoiko (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas plu facile pron= uncebla en la pluralo. & Stevenson (Progreso 332, p.=C2=A015, 17; 3= 34, p.=C2=A010).


<= /div>

--94eb2c149874fc77c0054540e871-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4669 Return-Path: X-Sender: artomo@jippii.fi X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 9123 invoked by uid 102); 4 Jan 2017 09:57:16 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m11.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2017 09:57:16 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 22010 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2017 09:57:16 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2017 09:57:16 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of jippii.fi does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: W1Peg.IWLDuKj1LeDW_SUt0zUgLQAlecLepwCvKPUJmdAm0M GUJTysC2hN_yMcOKUT8k00cwfaWfdWai4eqEO7qmtdIua_PxblyOZYxUuMgw KJjk4eNOXVOz1uIDxpR9CJrvB2X3M.W_jT7MS36ugxuuycnKtnkxD9vvs15v 3vpds6L9ilyl6z_fttQ5fzMPT0oliRNT_8ONWH7P4iUSCgP3T_1ufaOEjlYS VCk7O9WGNCYnygS69g5oD67oSIOlps6KI8MupT4_f3nwr2DQdCAoLf3DUzKh uHY2Bq5jDSEq3L9YAdyiRV.PVwgJ4HgGBH47nNMAGN34aVicONIQzoxn5Lim pXnZD3XNrVZEPN7QU408Tc6B7eUM3RbzgT.PUq8oRHcjQn5nmp8kjFp2e3KB 8eITBCKmUBB6J51xWziN23LoNIztFvB1.cSPM_U9Epo4W4HM7izAAdmNBVw0 VrCxsttELyypAGVeqUQgj7buhKkL_zjZpa0s0S4mC3UxMTMdnCcHEVFqG4o2 jX6cjBJs3zzT53WyTP65.cE5m02OKZdecVE0syXEyiO3BIa9qbJSDrTuo0qB 5KVruqRDQitb9biel0G6l3.NCG0jnzHlT53Gscm4qO87zKD7_JmwyT39WI9U WTh1E_TDi5xstPjm2fnHnR2HyhXgJzx4nhyZVQaIrVNsgjtdE_IDuTSIu6Mv E_NKK_mt_qykEAb7Mnad13Aot2wy1vwMed0ryuGveOMx6eUVcTL2crBN8I5g gNZoxTkyPK8ICjnZHClj2qpm81aYKJDo5W0aWgxwzxtfJBC1vMtJ0FB2XH73 zN66_ojpGitCMDBx6c8E2knOcnbrXH60dK6ocAG0Q6w_5Gdg19QZKssWh4V. 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On povas durar la milito senfine od on povas kondutar polite e serchar moyeni por montrar la direnta opinioni pri vortoformi e defini. La rezolvuro dependas de ni, amiki (edc. tala). Salutante, Arto. Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] kirjoitti 4.1.2017 10:52: > Gilles-Phipippe, en SIL me ya propozis *sauro vice "saurio" (quankam > olca esas AFGHI) por konformigar ol kun "brontosauro", *dinosauro, > *stegosauro, *tiranosauro. Yen la koncernata artiklo en SIL: > > *SAUR/O [_Zool._] Komuna nomo di singla *reptilio ne-tortuga e > ne-serpenta [a _saurian_ | f _saurien_ | g _Saurier_ | h _saurio_ | i > _sauro_ | e _saŭro_]. > > 2017-01-04 4:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> Gonçalo, ka me povas komprenar ke *sauri, en la defino, supozesas >> remplasar "saurii"? La litero "i" en "saurio" esas ankore tre >> internaciona (DEFIS). >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> 2017-01-03 16:40 GMT-05:00 Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> Yes, "dinosauro" esas nura propozo da nia regretata Stevenson che >>> Linguolisto ed en Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en SIL yene: >>> >>> *DINOSAUR/O [_Paleo._] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni >>> _Saurischia_ ed _Ornithischia_, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis >>> en la *ekosistemi di *mezozoiko dum c. 160 milion yari [A >>> _dinosaur_ | F _dinosaure_ | G _Dinosaurier_ | H _dinosaurio_ | I >>> _dinosauro_ | R динозавр | E _dinosaŭro_]. REM. >>> *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna dinosaurio, segun propozo da >>> Steveson che _Linguolisto_([1]). *dinosauro esas ya konforma al >>> nomi en quar dil sis fontolingui (AFIR), al Greka *etimono >>> (σαῦρος “lacerto”), al nomi di multa *dinosauri >>> (brontosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) e di altra granda >>> *reptilii di *mezozoiko (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas plu >>> facile pronuncebla en la pluralo. & Stevenson (_P__rogreso_ 332, >>> p. 15, 17; 334, p. 10). >>> >>> ------------------------- >>> >>> ([1]) http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linguolisto/message/1084 >>> [1] > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linguolisto/message/1084 > [2] > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/messages/4668;_ylc=X3oDMTJwMDdmcTBkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzQ2NjgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxNDgzNTIwMDc0?act=reply&messageNum=4668 > [3] > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/newtopic;_ylc=X3oDMTJldGlyOWIwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ4MzUyMDA3NA-- > [4] > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/topics/4655;_ylc=X3oDMTM0MW5vdml2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzQ2NjgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxNDgzNTIwMDc0BHRwY0lkAzQ2NTU- > [5] https://yho.com/1wwmgg > [6] > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaWRzOXNvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ4MzUyMDA3NA-- > [7] > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/members/all;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYWUzdmc0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzE0ODM1MjAwNzQ- > [8] > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbDE2YjMyBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDgzNTIwMDc0 > [9] https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html > [10] https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4670 Return-Path: X-Sender: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 6133 invoked by uid 102); 4 Jan 2017 11:18:14 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m17.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2017 11:18:14 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 32076 invoked from network); 4 Jan 2017 11:18:14 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Jan 2017 11:18:14 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of yahoogroups.com designates 72.30.235.216 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: X7iWB1YWLDt9r5kVmgn8MWul72UNf_HdWg2lo.Nl7Cbb3WI. 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Wed, 04 Jan 2017 18:26:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Jan 2017 18:26:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201713213930.911973@D9B5MN3J> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 21:26:31 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec3c22468be05454fa1f4 Subject: Re: [linguo] enrejistrar X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec3c22468be05454fa1f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Partaka, tua exemplo semblas tre bona a me. Malgre ke, en la Franca, me ne = kredas ke on distingus ta du verbi (On *enregistre* une partition qu'on *en= registre* comme chanson), me povas perceptar la nuanco. Gilles-Philippe O= n Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 6:18 AM, qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Quoniam existas "registragar" ed "en= rejistrar" (ultre "enregistrigar), me > ipsa uzas amba verbi ne kom tote si= nonima, ma kelke nuancoze. Yen exemplo: > "On registragas (en autor-societo= ) papera particiono, quan on enrejistris > od enrejistros kom kansono (che = muzikal KD)". > > (Partaka) > > > --f403045ec3c22468be05454fa1f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Partaka, tua exemplo semblas tre bona a me. Malgre ke, en = la Franca, me ne kredas ke on distingus ta du verbi (On enregistre= =C2=A0une partition qu'on enregistre=C2=A0comme chanson), me pov= as perceptar la nuanco.

Gilles-Philippe

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at= 6:18 AM, qualevistandas@yahoo.e= s [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> = wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Quoniam existas "registra= gar" ed "enrejistrar" (ultre "enregistrigar), me ipsa u= zas amba verbi ne kom tote sinonima, ma kelke nuancoze. Yen exemplo:=C2=A0<= /span>

"On registragas (en auto= r-societo) papera particiono, quan on enrejistris od enrejistros kom kanson= o (che muzikal KD)".=C2=A0

=C2=A0(Partaka) = =C2=A0


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Me probis anular la chanji, ma pos kelka minuti lu anulis mea an= ulo. La milito komencis. To esas regretinda. Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-04 = 4:57 GMT-05:00 artomo@jippii.fi [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >: > > > Nun komencis redakto-milito en Wikivortaro. On povas durar la mil= ito > senfine od on povas kondutar polite e serchar moyeni por montrar la >= direnta opinioni pri vortoformi e defini. La rezolvuro dependas de ni, > a= miki (edc. tala). Salutante, Arto. > > Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.co= m [linguolisto] kirjoitti 4.1.2017 10:52: > > Gilles-Phipippe, en SIL me ya= propozis *sauro vice "saurio" (quankam > > olca esas AFGHI) por konformiga= r ol kun "brontosauro", *dinosauro, > > *stegosauro, *tiranosauro. Yen la k= oncernata artiklo en SIL: > > > > *SAUR/O [_Zool._] Komuna nomo di singla *= reptilio ne-tortuga e > > ne-serpenta [a _saurian_ | f _saurien_ | g _Sauri= er_ | h _saurio_ | i > > _sauro_ | e _sa=C5=ADro_]. > > > > 2017-01-04 4:47= GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > > [linguolisto] : > > > >> Gon=C3=A7alo, ka me povas komprenar ke *= sauri, en la defino, supozesas > >> remplasar "saurii"? La litero "i" en "s= aurio" esas ankore tre > >> internaciona (DEFIS). > >> > >> Kun kordiala sa= luti, > >> Gilles-Philippe > >> > >> 2017-01-03 16:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7al= o Neves gneves64@gmail.com > >> [linguolisto] = : > >> > >>> Yes, "dinosauro" esas nura propozo da nia regretata Stevenson = che > >>> Linguolisto ed en Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en SIL yene: > >>>= > >>> *DINOSAUR/O [_Paleo._] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni > >= >> _Saurischia_ ed _Ornithischia_, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis > >>> e= n la *ekosistemi di *mezozoiko dum c. 160 milion yari [A > >>> _dinosaur_ |= F _dinosaure_ | G _Dinosaurier_ | H _dinosaurio_ | I > >>> _dinosauro_ | R= =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0=D0=B2=D1=80 | E _dinosa=C5=ADro_]. RE= M. > >>> *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna dinosaurio, segun propozo da > >>>= Steveson che _Linguolisto_([1]). *dinosauro esas ya konforma al > >>> nomi= en quar dil sis fontolingui (AFIR), al Greka *etimono > >>> (=CF=83=CE=B1= =E1=BF=A6=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80=9D), al nomi di multa *d= inosauri > >>> (brontosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) e di altra gr= anda > >>> *reptilii di *mezozoiko (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas plu > = >>> facile pronuncebla en la pluralo. & Stevenson (_P__rogreso_ 332, > >>> = p. 15, 17; 334, p. 10). > >>> > >>> ------------------------- > >>> > >>> (= [1]) http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linguolisto/message/1084 > >>> [1] = > > > > > > > > Links: > > ------ > > [1] http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/grou= p/linguolisto/message/1084 > > [2] > > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= linguolisto/ > conversations/messages/4668;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJwMDdmcTBkBF9TAzk3M= zU5Nz > E0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzQ2Nj > gEc2= VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxNDgzNTIwMDc0?act=3Dreply&messageNum=3D4668 > = > [3] > > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/ > conversations/= newtopic;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJldGlyOWIwBF9TAzk3MzU5Nz > E0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jw= c3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2 > xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ4MzUyMDA3NA-- > >= [4] > > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/ > conversations/t= opics/4655;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM0MW5vdml2BF9TAzk3MzU5Nz > E0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3= Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzQ2Nj > gEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxND= gzNTIwMDc0BHRwY0lkAzQ2NTU- > > [5] https://yho.com/1wwmgg > > [6] > > https= ://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/info;_ylc=3D > X3oDMTJlaWRzOXNvB= F9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJ > ZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc= 2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ4MzUyMDA3NA-- > > [7] > > https://groups.yahoo.com/ne= o/groups/linguolisto/members/all;_ylc=3D > X3oDMTJmYWUzdmc0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0= BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJ > ZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0= aW1lAzE0ODM1MjAwNzQ- > > [8] > > https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=3DX3oDMT= JkbDE2YjMyBF9TAzk3NDc2NT > kwBGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BH= NlYwNmdHIEc2 > xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDgzNTIwMDc0 > > [9] https://info.yahoo.co= m/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html > > [10] https://info.yahoo.com/lega= l/us/yahoo/utos/terms/ > > > --f403045ec65293340705454fafd4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Arto,
Me konfirmas ke certena uzero nomizita &quo= t;Jopali" (forsan Tiberio Madonna?) decidis segunvole "oficaligar= " la vorti *dinosauro e *chao en Wikivortaro.

Me probis anular la chanji, ma pos kelka minuti lu anulis mea anulo. La mi= lito komencis.

To esas regretinda.

<= /div>
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-04 4:57 GMT-05:00 artomo@jippii.fi [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogrou= ps.com>:
=
=C2= =A0

Nun komencis redakto-milito en Wikivortaro. On po= vas durar la milito
senfine od on povas kondutar polite e serchar moye= ni por montrar la
direnta opinioni pri vortoformi e defini. La rezolvu= ro dependas de ni,
amiki (edc. tala). Salutante, Arto.

Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] kirjoitti 4.1.2017 10:52:<= br> > Gilles-Phipippe, en SIL me ya propozis *sauro vice "saurio&qu= ot; (quankam
> olca esas AFGHI) por konformigar ol kun "brontos= auro", *dinosauro,
> *stegosauro, *tiranosauro. Yen la koncerna= ta artiklo en SIL:
>
> *SAUR/O [_Zool._] Komuna nomo = di singla *reptilio ne-tortuga e
> ne-serpenta [a _saurian_ | f _sau= rien_ | g _Saurier_ | h _saurio_ | i
> _sauro_ | e _sa=C5=ADro_].
>
> 2017-01-04 4:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe= Morin gphmorin@gma= il.com
> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
> <= br> >> Gon=C3=A7alo, ka me povas komprenar ke *sauri, en la defino, s= upozesas
>> remplasar "saurii"? La litero "i"= en "saurio" esas ankore tre
>> internaciona (DEFIS). >>
>> Kun kordiala saluti,
>> Gilles-Philippe=
>>
>> 2017-01-03 16:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves <= a href=3D"mailto:gneves64@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gneves64@gmail.com
>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
>> <= br> >>> Yes, "dinosauro" esas nura propozo da nia regret= ata Stevenson che
>>> Linguolisto ed en Progreso, olquan me in= kluzis en SIL yene:
>>>
>>> *DINOSAUR/O [= _Paleo._] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni
>>> _Sauri= schia_ ed _Ornithischia_, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis=
>>> en la *ekosistemi di *mezozoiko dum c. 160 milion yari [A=
>>> _dinosaur_ | F _dinosaure_ | G _Dinosaurier_ | H _= dinosaurio_ | I
>>> _dinosauro_ | R =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE= =D0=B7=D0=B0=D0=B2=D1=80 | E _dinosa=C5=ADro_]. REM.
&= gt;>> *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna dinosaurio, segun propozo da >>> Steveson che _Linguolisto_([1]). *dinosauro esas ya k= onforma al
>>> nomi en quar dil sis fontoling= ui (AFIR), al Greka *etimono
>>> (=CF=83=CE=B1=E1=BF=A6=CF=81= =CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80=9D), al nomi di multa *dinosauri
&g= t;>> (brontosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) e di altra granda=
>>> *reptilii di *mezozoiko (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas= plu
 >>> facile pronuncebla en la pluralo. & Steven= son (_P__rogreso_ 332,
>>> p. 15, 17; 334, p.= 10).
>>>
>>> -------------------------
>>>
>>> ([1]) htt= p://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/linguolisto/message/1084
>>> [1]
>
>
>
> Links:
> -= -----
> [1] http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/l= inguolisto/message/1084
> [2]
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/= linguolisto/conversations/messages/4668;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJwMDdmc= TBkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG= 1zZ0lkAzQ2NjgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxNDgzNTIwMDc0?act=3D= reply&messageNum=3D4668
> [3]
> https://= groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/newtopic;_y= lc=3DX3oDMTJldGlyOWIwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJ= ZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTQ4MzUyMDA3= NA--
> [4]
> https= ://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/topics/4= 655;_ylc=3DX3oDMTM0MW5vdml2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzM= zIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzQ2NjgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYw= RzdGltZQMxNDgzNTIwMDc0BHRwY0lkAzQ2NTU-
> [5] https://yho.com/1wwmgg > [6]
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/info;_ylc= =3DX3oDMTJlaWRzOXNvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTQ4MzUyMDA3NA= --
> [7]
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguoli= sto/members/all;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJmYWUzdmc0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdyc= ElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBH= N0aW1lAzE0ODM1MjAwNzQ-
> [8]
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo;_ylc=3DX3oDMTJkbDE2Y= jMyBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEzMjgzMzIEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BH= NlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxNDgzNTIwMDc0
> [9] https://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html<= /a>
> [10] https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/term= s/


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Ka to signifikas, ke tu preferas kohero= vice internacioneso? Nam de la vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apt= a vorto (glikogeno, glikogenezo, e.c.). Ma de la vidpunto di internacioneso= , *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS). La Akademio di Esperanto adoptis "glikoz= o" en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, ma pose remplasigis lu da "glukozo" en la = Okesma Oficala Adjunto. 2017-01-04 3:52 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneve= s64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Gilles-P= hipippe, en SIL me ya propozis *sauro vice "saurio" (quankam olca > esas AF= GHI) por konformigar ol kun "brontosauro", *dinosauro, *stegosauro, > *tira= nosauro. Yen la koncernata artiklo en SIL: > > **saur*/*o* [*Zool.*] Komuna= nomo di singla *reptilio ne-tortuga e > ne-serpenta [a *saurian* | f *saur= ien* | g *Saurier* | h *saurio* | i > *sauro* | e *sa=C5=ADro*]. > > > > 20= 17-01-04 4:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguol= isto] : > >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo, ka me povas k= omprenar ke *sauri, en la defino, supozesas >> remplasar "saurii"? La liter= o "i" en "saurio" esas ankore tre internaciona >> (DEFIS). >> >> Kun kordia= la saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> 2017-01-03 16:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo= Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >= > >>> >>> >>> Yes, "dinosauro" esas nura propozo da nia regretata Stevenson= che >>> Linguolisto ed en Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en SIL yene: >>> >>= > >>> **dinosaur*/*o* [*Paleo.*] Komuna nomo di diversa *sauri del *ordoni = >>> *Saurischia* ed *Ornithischia*, ofte tre granda, qui preponderis en la = >>> *ekosistemi di *mezozoiko dum c. 160 milion yari [A *dinosaur* | F >>> = *dinosaure* | G *Dinosaurier* | H *dinosaurio* | I *dinosauro* | R >>> =D0= =B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0=D0=B2=D1=80 | E *dinosa=C5=ADro*]. *Rem.*= *dinosauro remplasez la tilnuna >>> dinosaurio, segun propozo da Steveson = che *Linguolisto*([1]). *dinosauro >>> esas ya konforma al nomi en quar dil= sis fontolingui (AFIR), al Greka >>> *etimono (=CF=83=CE=B1=E1=BF=A6=CF=81= =CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2=80=9D), al nomi di multa *dinosauri (bront= osauro, >>> *stegosauro, *tiranosauro, e.c.) e di altra granda *reptilii di= *mezozoiko >>> (iktiosauro, plesiosauro) ed esas plu facile pronuncebla en= la pluralo. >>> & Stevenson (*P**rogreso* 332, p. 15, 17; 334, p. 10). >>>= >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> ([1]) *http://tech.groups.yahoo= .com/group/linguolisto/message/1084 >>> * >>> >>> > > --001a114b072cd1ded905454fc926 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. Ka to signifikas, ke t= u preferas kohero vice internacioneso?

Nam de la vidpunt= o di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apta vorto (glikogeno, glikogenez= o, e.c.).
Ma de la vidpunto di internacioneso, *glukoso esas plu = apta (DEFIRS).
La Akademio di Esperanto adoptis "glikozo&quo= t; en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, ma pose remplasigis lu da "glukozo&qu= ot; en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto.
2017-01-04 3:52 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Gilles-Phipippe, en SIL me ya propozis *sauro v= ice "saurio" (quankam olca esas AFGHI) por konformigar ol kun &qu= ot;brontosauro", *dinosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosauro. Yen la koncern= ata artiklo en SIL:

*saur/o [Zool.] Komuna n= omo di singla *reptilio ne-tortuga e ne-serpenta [a saurian= | f saurien | g Saurier | h saurio | i sauro | e sa=C5=ADro].

=


2017-01-04 4:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, ka me povas komprenar = ke *sauri, en la defino, supozesas remplasar "saurii"? La litero = "i" en "saurio" esas ankore tre internaciona (DEFIS).
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-03 16:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= u>
= =C2=A0
Yes, "= dinosauro" esas nura propozo da nia regretata Stevenson che Linguolist= o ed en Progreso, olquan me inkluzis en SIL yene:=C2=A0

=

*dinosaur/o [Paleo.] Komuna nom= o di diversa *sauri del *ordoni Saurischia ed Ornithischia, o= fte tre granda, qui preponderis en la *ekosistemi di *mezozoiko dum c. 160 = milion yari [A = dinosaur | F dinosaure | G= Dinosaurier | H dinos= aurio | I dinosauro | R =D0=B4=D0=B8=D0=BD=D0=BE=D0=B7=D0=B0=D0=B2=D1=80 | E dinosa=C5=ADro]. Rem. *dinosauro<= span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif" lang=3D"SV"> r= emplasez la tilnuna dinosaurio, segun propozo da= Steveson che Linguolisto([1]). *dinosauro= esas ya konforma al nomi en quar dil sis fontolingui (= AFIR), al Greka *etimono (=CF=83=CE=B1=E1=BF=A6=CF=81=CE=BF=CF=82 =E2=80=9Clacerto=E2= =80=9D), al nomi di multa *dinosauri (brontosauro, *stegosauro, *tiranosaur= o, e.c.) e di altra granda *reptilii di *mezozoiko (iktiosauro, plesiosauro= ) ed esas plu facile pronuncebla en la pluralo. & Stevenson (Progreso 332, p.=C2=A015, 17; 334, p.=C2=A010).


<= /div>


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boundary="9nlWnTS9ocNmxdhsK3FKVLWiM6a5jwOaA8HvrLV" Reply-To: qualevistandas@yahoo.es Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=151141225; y=WoWnfXAVtGd_2-y1ipD9ZPEFAGNRzOhs-vtQCDeqOFOtumauNx40Ruc X-Yahoo-Profile: qualevistandas From: qualevistandas@yahoo.es --9nlWnTS9ocNmxdhsK3FKVLWiM6a5jwOaA8HvrLLV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 S2FyIGFtaWtpOiAgTGEgdm9ydGkgImNoYW8hIiwgImF1dG9zdG9wbyIsICJhcm9ibyIgKGUgc2lz IHBsdXNhIHZvcnRpIGVrIGdydXBldG8gZGUgbm9uKSBlc2FzIG9maWNhbCBlbiBJZG8gZSBkZXZh cyBhcGFyYXIgY2hlIG5pYSBXaWtpdm9ydGFybyB0b3RlIHNlbiBhc3Rlcmlza28uIA0KIEUgeWVu IGxpc3RvIGtvbnRlbmFudGEgbGEgbGFzdGEgSWRvLXZvcnRpIG9maWNhbGlnaXRhLiBJcmcgYWx0 cmEgdm9ydGksIHF1aSBlc2FzIG51cmEgcHJvcG96YWppLCBkZXZhcyBuZSBhcGFyYXIgbWVtIGt1 biBhc3Rlcmlza28gZWQgYXZlcnRvIHByaSBuZS1vZmljYWxpZ28sIGVjZXB0ZSBzZSB0YWwgdm9y dGkgcHJvcG96ZXNpcyBlZCB1emVzYXMgZGUgbXVsdGEgeWFyaSBhbnRlIG51bi4gTGEgZm9ybW8g 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bh=i5aGjQIGAQgj4cTe7CT/r+sbEJKjbisTQ+ujOtpjQoY=; b=MH3IqL73i2Q54KP5kIkVYTPoaRHCk58dVtq1bmGPXqdfPk/7UYOtd+EGLVHRwoXhko 2ZA8zpHL517H7xKfuYajnAEmxQ6H9uIi60UUsZupVRpDznJlKCJ6Ye5k3kB22kmTyXlR kr053mJqdGfDZTvm/rDxJ9Wwg0tsLR++ULito42i4ZR76Ie1k/vYnbptB6+DWvZiRH0R mfEfpXoFklhalP+XR5srlb8IGNr6+o0f897/w0mN1/NnB3Vjk650d4B///GDIPRYNSJ4 zKJquKQyQ8Ouajp7B4RCSfhyDHejAsMt3hXb7diw1tvqPB1GgKYY+sZGvn2UG2yGYd+V 3K9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKXS1Ee/a5qLd52AbPWqs6dzeWYVbOPoB3iwOkDWccRKbuOvrjZhpQYqd7Gv3jjjlkTA88XvnGUMCwYhg== X-Received: by 10.176.0.82 with SMTP id 76mr52563811uai.46.1483615001320; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 03:16:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 03:16:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:16:40 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113e45ce2325e80545570978 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=C0t3gikDI_f11n-gF-E9Y4d8Ia2vVYheJ9m1tsMQ5w7W_oz3uLETXQ X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a113e45ce2325e80545570978 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gilles-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internacioneso :-) 2017-01-05 2:37 = GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. Ka to signi= fikas, ke tu preferas kohero > vice internacioneso? > > Nam de la vidpunto = di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apta vorto (glikogeno, > glikogenezo, e.c.). = > Ma de la vidpunto di internacioneso, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS). > L= a Akademio di Esperanto adoptis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, > m= a pose remplasigis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto. > > --001a113e45ce2325e80545570978 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gilles-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internacioneso :-) =

2017-01-= 05 2:37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
=
=C2=A0=
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la info= rmo. Ka to signifikas, ke tu preferas kohero vice internacioneso?

<= /div>
Nam de la vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apta v= orto (glikogeno, glikogenezo, e.c.).
Ma de la vidpunto di interna= cioneso, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS).
La Akademio di Esperant= o adoptis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, ma pose remplas= igis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto.


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Olim, certena persono skribis a me ke *chao*= "esas 'oficala' madonnajo". Forsan ta persono eroris. 2017-01-05 3:52 GM= T-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >: > > > Kar amiki: > La vorti "chao!", "autostopo", "arobo" (e sis plusa = vorti ek grupeto de > non) esas ofical en Ido e devas aparar che nia Wikivo= rtaro tote sen > asterisko. > E yen listo kontenanta la lasta Ido-vorti ofi= caligita. Irg altra vorti, > qui esas nura propozaji, devas ne aparar mem k= un asterisko ed averto pri > ne-oficaligo, ecepte se tal vorti propozesis e= d uzesas de multa yari ante > nun. La formo "komputero" ne esas ofical, e n= un-tempe uzesas "komputoro, > komputero, komputilo, komputatoro", edc. On n= e darfas inkluzar irga vorti, > mem se asteriskizita. > (Vandalin, ne impor= tas qui li esas, on devas traktar kom vandali). Chao! > (PTK) > ------- > >= 1 *diskriminac.ar *(tr) Desfavorar persono o > gru= po de personi pro lua o lia individual traiti od opinioni (raso, sexuo, > s= exual preferi, evo, sociala klaso, partiso, religio, edc) [A to > discrimin= ate against | F discriminer | G diskriminieren | H discriminar | I > discri= minare | R diskriminirovat']. diskriminac.o. Tala ago: diskriminaco > sexua= l, rasal, politikal [A discrimination (against) | F discrimination | G > Di= skriminierung | H discriminaci=C3=B3n | I discriminazione | R diskriminaciy= a]. > > 2 *ekosistem.o *[Ekol.] Sencese interrelatanta ensemblo de *bioceno= zo e > biotopo [A ecosystem | F =C3=A9cosyst=C3=A8me | G =C3=96kosystem | H= I ecosistema | I > biosistema | R ekosistyema]. > > 3 *eskalator.o *Mashina= la eskalero ek movanta gradi, por transportar > personi adsupre ed adinfre = inter diferanta etaji o niveli, precipue en > granda butiki, aeroportui, su= btera fervoyala stacioni, edc [AF escalator | > F escalier m=C3=A9canique, = escalier roulant | G Rolltreppe, Fahrtreppe | H > escalera mec=C3=A1nica, e= scalera autom=C3=A1tica | I scala mobile | R eskalator]. > > 4 *etni.o *[Et= nog.] Grupo de homi qui sentas su unionita da komuna > genealogio od ancest= reso, reala od imaginata, ed ordinare anke da komuna > linguo, kulturo, kus= tumi, ritui o religio: etniala konflikti [A ethnic > group | F ethnie | G E= thnie | HI etnia | R etnos > > 5 *eur.o* [Ekon.] Pekunial unajo dil Uniono = Europana (=E2=82=AC): la abonpreco di > Progreso kustas 10 euri [AFHI euro = | G Euro | R yevro ]. > > 6 *fax.ar *(tr) Sendar texto od a= ltra dokumento per > sistemo elektronikal uzanta telefon-lineo: faxez a me = la raporto [A to fax > | F faxer | G faxen, fernkopieren | H enviar por fax= | I faxare | R > posjlat' faks, pyeryedavat' faks]. fax.il.o. Aparato uzat= a por faxar ulo [A > fax machine | FHI fax, F t=C3=A9l=C3=A9copieur | G Fer= nkopierer, Faxger=C3=A4t | R > tyelyefaks, faks ]. fax.ur.o. Dokumento faxe= recevita [AFHI fax | F > t=C3=A9l=C3=A9copie | G Fernkopie, Fax | R faks].= > > 7 *festival.o *Serio de eventi muzikal, cinematografal, teatral, edc >= [AFHI festival | G Festival | R fyestival' ]. > > 8 *flash.ar *(ntr) Emisar forta instantala lumo-radii > [A to flash (emit light f= or an instant) | H emitir un destello | I emettere > un flash, un lampo di = luce | R vspjkhivat]. > flash.er.o. Aparato qua emisas forta instantala= lumo-radii, maxim > aparte en fotografili por fotografar ulo en loko poke = lumoza, ed anke irgo > quo flashas [A flashgun; flasher (device) | FHI flas= h | G Blitzlicht | R > fotovspjshka; vspjshka]. > > 9 *fonem.o *[Ling.] La = maxim mikra fonologial unajo [A phoneme | F > phon=C3=A8me | G Phonem | HI = fonema | R fonyema]. > > 10 *fonologi.o *[Ling.] Fako di la linguistiko qua= studias la fonemi, t. > e. la foni di ula linguo qui esas kapabla transmis= ar distingi di la > signifiki [A phonology | F phonologie | G Phonologie | = H fonolog=C3=ADa | I > fonologia | R fonologiya]. > > > --f403045e57fe2861e40545588396 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Partaka, danko pro la informo. Olim, certena persono skrib= is a me ke chao=C2=A0"esas 'oficala' madonnajo".
Forsan ta persono eroris.

2017-01-05 3:52 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <= span dir=3D"ltr"><linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Kar amiki:=C2=A0

La vorti "chao!", "autostopo", "arobo" (= e sis plusa vorti ek grupeto de non) esas ofical en Ido e devas aparar che = nia Wikivortaro tote sen asterisko.=C2=A0
E yen listo kontenanta la lasta Ido-vorti oficaligita. Irg a= ltra vorti, qui esas nura propozaji, devas ne aparar mem kun asterisko ed a= verto pri ne-oficaligo, ecepte se tal vorti propozesis ed uzesas de multa y= ari ante nun. La formo "komputero" ne esas ofical, e nun-tempe uz= esas "komputoro, komputero, komputilo, komputatoro", edc. On ne d= arfas inkluzar irga vorti, mem se asteriskizita.=C2=A0
(Vandalin, ne importas qui li esas, on devas tr= aktar kom vandali). Chao! (PTK)=C2=A0
-------=C2=A0
1=C2=A0diskriminac.ar=C2=A0(tr) Desfavorar persono o grupo de personi pro lua o lia individual trai= ti od opinioni (raso, sexuo, sexual preferi, evo, sociala klaso, partiso, r= eligio, edc) [A to discriminate against | F discriminer | G diskriminieren = | H discriminar | I discriminare | R diskriminirovat']. diskriminac.o. = Tala ago: diskriminaco sexual, rasal, politikal [A discrimination (against)= | F discrimination | G Diskriminierung | H discriminaci=C3=B3n | I discrim= inazione | R diskriminaciya].

2=C2=A0ekosistem.o=C2=A0[Ekol.] Sencese interr= elatanta ensemblo de *biocenozo e biotopo [A ecosystem | F =C3=A9cosyst=C3= =A8me | G =C3=96kosystem | HI ecosistema | I biosistema | R ekosistyema].

3=C2=A0eska= lator.o=C2=A0Mashinala eskalero ek movanta gradi, por transportar = personi adsupre ed adinfre inter diferanta etaji o niveli, precipue en gran= da butiki, aeroportui, subtera fervoyala stacioni, edc [AF escalator | F es= calier m=C3=A9canique, escalier roulant | G Rolltreppe, Fahrtreppe | H esca= lera mec=C3=A1nica, escalera autom=C3=A1tica | I scala mobile | R eskalator= ].

4=C2=A0= etni.o=C2=A0[Etnog.] Grupo de homi qui sentas su unionita da komun= a genealogio od ancestreso, reala od imaginata, ed ordinare anke da komuna = linguo, kulturo, kustumi, ritui o religio: etniala konflikti [A ethnic grou= p | F ethnie | G Ethnie | HI etnia | R etnos

5=C2=A0eur.o=C2=A0[Ekon.] Pekun= ial unajo dil Uniono Europana (=E2=82=AC): la abonpreco di Progreso kustas = 10 euri [AFHI euro | G Euro | R yevro ].

6=C2=A0fax.ar=C2=A0(tr) Sendar texto od altra dokumento per si= stemo elektronikal uzanta telefon-lineo: faxez a me la raporto [A to fax | = F faxer | G faxen, fernkopieren | H enviar por fax | I faxare | R posjlat&#= 39; faks, pyeryedavat' faks]. fax.il.o. Aparato uzata por faxar ulo [A = fax machine | FHI fax, F t=C3=A9l=C3=A9copieur | G Fernkopierer, Faxger=C3= =A4t | R tyelyefaks, faks ]. fax.ur.o. Dokumento faxe recevita [AFHI fax | = F t=C3=A9l=C3=A9copie | G Fernkopie, Fax | R faks].

7=C2=A0festival.o=C2=A0S= erio de eventi muzikal, cinematografal, teatral, edc [AFHI festival | G Fes= tival | R fyestival' ].

8=C2=A0flas= h.ar=C2=A0(ntr) Emisar forta instantala lumo-radii [A to flash= (emit light for an instant) | H emitir un destello | I emettere un flash, = un lampo di luce | R vspjkhivat].
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 flash.er.o. Aparato qua = emisas forta instantala lumo-radii, maxim aparte en fotografili por fotogra= far ulo en loko poke lumoza, ed anke irgo quo flashas [A flashgun; flasher = (device) | FHI flash | G Blitzlicht | R fotovspjshka; vspjshka].

9=C2=A0fonem.o=C2=A0= [Ling.] La maxim mikra fonologial unajo [A phoneme | F phon=C3=A8m= e | G Phonem | HI fonema | R fonyema].

10=C2=A0fonologi.o=C2=A0[Ling.] Fako = di la linguistiko qua studias la fonemi, t. e. la foni di ula linguo qui es= as kapabla transmisar distingi di la signifiki [A phonology | F phonologie = | G Phonologie | H fonolog=C3=ADa | I fonologia | R fonologiya].

=

=

--f403045e57fe2861e40545588396-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4677 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 6298 invoked by uid 102); 5 Jan 2017 13:03:22 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2017 13:03:22 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 19009 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2017 13:03:22 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2017 13:03:22 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.46 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: EaxpM.QWLDsDDiizx7y3I9m6Dx4cZ4K2Ip4gt4uAyrTb5nmw XyU8lkHD_LH49lALHx93QkzItLalMsSbOCog2tr.OqW4wATMrum51sC0ofkX SeAGWUPpDVKQMsSxbc5RqOXFSodjE1eru4De8daGZYyZ3xfxzQcRt_DNQGsd g6xIDNhBXVeDtNBb2pQiVxqy5NRQ70vVru4guIok2ivlaTY3.UAxV96vuNbT GujXvC_heWRuNAp5BkrP5Ya3FGkuzUa8G0T8lQBv7iG8JMIJJ5KDzEdh2D_2 ffqWbc_TpaoflrGjrabMK5nD0XDkaiW6sGAcN1ZBk3dMCzJFQHLGjYbe2z9Z P3gMW.66KqpdlIImNGugOsjYED5ne1P2GsAD7k86zV_I_Z6ZMH0UzO8LzzUs uh4B7weoYQXTQItAGD5OYJtMWfAHgH2fz2aG0z45jHv5a8v71Pr4kvRbEHDG shxmi5HBA1E_qfyA70SAxvX3b9lQ6qEB7TZqCeRws1vVrrA0iVbXCNBYFG6o 2hLUMxKsgbFm39eS5qtWlewYNdslPRMyHj5LLqwkfj441kAI4EaiYWIPMKgQ rGVDW08kh0wmMFuy2DhvtbZz8e134BeJFMu.ApRpenyXbEJTcDu6qh7sGOwc J4a_n79QYusshPKsqa81dYVp7eMggYtV9iIQ_F9AQ0jHbkv2AlZd6p2641Pt SY4sTw6PTI5cKcdwfkX_rdjfSzIUqYUt9mAsAHNVZ5.FT4lKkikQ4icVAoxX gDynghMyeq7lXRZwa7HfQWabAqzDduGtg25IPiSC5fGz7AX57.bsXihDyoT3 ijMYBwPLklCZH92haeasKAQtW_xpYSriukmy6TdV.obF.JNpqTyXMs3AoPRp H7HFyxR0gq80vO16KveF9uNYXjuIrwxkVkMUFuymgdHOFWVRuGc2d0c1_YAc x4myi1MkpSvGC6oYt2VTReXRN6RVA_sQvD20_o9wE65kBLpvoMyTqDoFwCwM Lkrf4Gkw9pdfA9jBjIand03wCCnNht3lavfhLfYJwSBidAr56d40wzgTq_iD jMb5Elsa8ici12F8sqhcnwv7df2obRNW_rB5paxkOZOKGiiGCoSUPnEL8nPR uLwjytVly7C5o03LlYLy9xWNcnRs420m05_Qz5cSXh2rUWKIKJNb60BIoj3A N5HnEeUabGUzktlx85IPK1f6h5Gafy3OVsZiOMQGnTg.IPZclcqEN2SQk2NJ DcZrxQEOHB_jNUdkbkBnrAH8ll8mtLOdoBQ9uB.nLwxFca0tsofHAqYsNeLw k34VJWJuTosLRzMf0LtgNMNBw7emNtfGl3oWP1F0e1_m9ZHniC9vrX0WzVGG 7qZthYwD02R7WLR1JyVuZKhjqpRx65uIFP0TsF.fDr2icDesdS4HahhSofn7 MVJKt1VS2jX0tt8FDITA2D_kszaJPs6MAvaUEOLV9DAyLapBL87rx8mchuL9 hA_BMq.uaOX5tVxvdgWQskaOySO7t98z37iwm3xH0X8X8TxZbvcxQyyqffLp lWw8lyIt3LFTrALYbPm4IBF_fS6dvLAj2HV73G9wYrrVkL9fIFETodrhgE1J Ntjif9crGOeIfXg- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f46.google.com) (209.85.215.46) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 13:03:22 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f46.google.com with SMTP id k86so34582474lfi.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 05:03:21 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+hXM+7qOsptGUUOV/wuC5olS4peANUyyuRtFEFmOQdY=; b=Tbab7+C/xc5PGpStrqnVrG0pSOGz7WMNdeKG5eZ2b005WRmy5kurLmMv8UBNDxRc/L GDP6J2COTkKgFI8wQVWvnzfXneYBAKPVpQK31qiugqXXPMX9iegSMnWtr9P0ACU89hqV MfRgcuWHmVCgqCMlsD4zyrrQMm3NgMKMS21vApnREzc58nZKdFqCpnsZFTCHFnOn8XHr oBjhYHkbl2GGGys4cs1dRJA08YQDyX+aPV+MqauvVjbUx57kq2pJL9arOkAI1HD4T8Fj gj/0fKQ3hKeCwsnXe7Cg9jsoAtNAqkFSjmetNOJ01G5Dw6OIzmLgNG6kzEFGoRQR2y8N uw3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKzu71rregHr1O+j6k/hcy7bpEigQivPsJxnHeo2YNZvqNXuX15/s0qxs1g+xqEU3555ZlRDSldIWBMJg== X-Received: by 10.46.14.17 with SMTP id 17mr25232680ljo.16.1483621400218; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 05:03:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 05:03:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:03:19 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ea5908a951e05455886a8 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ea5908a951e05455886a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gon=C3=A7alo, nu... se internacioneso ne koheras, quon selektar inter la du= ? "glukoso" o "glikoso"? 2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gnev= es64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Gilles-= Philippe, me preferas koheranta internacioneso :-) > > 2017-01-05 2:37 GMT+= 00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. Ka to sig= nifikas, ke tu preferas kohero >> vice internacioneso? >> >> Nam de la vidp= unto di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apta vorto (glikogeno, >> glikogenezo, e= .c.). >> Ma de la vidpunto di internacioneso, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIR= S). >> La Akademio di Esperanto adoptis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala Adju= nto, >> ma pose remplasigis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto. >= > >> > > --f403045ea5908a951e05455886a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gon=C3=A7alo, nu... se internacioneso ne koheras, quon sel= ektar inter la du? "glukoso" o "glikoso"?

2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00= Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.co= m [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:=
=C2=A0
=

Gilles-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internaci= oneso :-)

2017-01-05 2:37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. Ka to signifika= s, ke tu preferas kohero vice internacioneso?

Nam de la = vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apta vorto (glikogeno, gli= kogenezo, e.c.).
Ma de la vidpunto di internacioneso, *glukoso es= as plu apta (DEFIRS).
La Akademio di Esperanto adoptis "glik= ozo" en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, ma pose remplasigis lu da "glu= kozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto.


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u=24528831; y=JJAUy8T91rfUVXWB0PRXCQYPAONuz-bmJwU0WEK9Uig X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB1397CBF2F9EB6010EEAC3A600A4600DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara amiko Me povas konfirmar ke chao esas inter la vorti adoptita dum la= sekretarieso di TM. Entote esas 17 tala vorti, me havas listo de li sendi= ta a me da Loic Landais. Omna ta vorti aprobesis da la tota DK di ULI, ne = nur da TM. Amikale JC ________________________________ From: linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gilles-Philip= pe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sen= t: 05 January 2017 13:02 To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [ling= uo] dinosaurio Partaka, danko pro la informo. Olim, certena persono skri= bis a me ke chao "esas 'oficala' madonnajo". Forsan ta persono eroris. --_000_DB5PR03MB1397CBF2F9EB6010EEAC3A600A4600DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kara amiko

<= br>

Me povas konfirmar ke chao esas inter la vorti adoptita dum la = sekretarieso di TM.  Entote esas 17 tala vorti, me havas listo de li s= endita a me da Loic Landais.  Omna ta vorti aprobesis da la tota DK di= ULI, ne nur da TM.


Amikale

JC



From:= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf = of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto]
Sent: 05 January 2017 13:02
To: li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio
 


Partaka, danko p= ro la informo. Olim, certena persono skribis a me ke chao "= ;esas 'oficala' madonnajo".

Forsan ta persono er= oris.
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Thu, 05 Jan 2017 05:51:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 05:51:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 13:51:14 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c04f2eeeb64f605455931f6 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=K7p3M87qJm2Aq2IswxwlcXnFWLagz28x4Eiz5rmc5kR23UOpphirng X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c04f2eeeb64f605455931f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu, Gilles-Philippe, me preferas "glikoso" (anke en mea matrala linguo, en = qua uzesas la du formi "glicose" e "glucose"), ma to esas nur mea personala= prefero, evidente. 2017-01-05 13:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmo= rin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Gon=C3=A7= alo, nu... se internacioneso ne koheras, quon selektar inter la du? > "gluk= oso" o "glikoso"? > > 2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64= @gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> Gille= s-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internacioneso :-) >> >> 2017-01-05 2:37 = GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. = Ka to signifikas, ke tu preferas kohero >>> vice internacioneso? >>> >>> Na= m de la vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apta vorto (glikogeno, >>> g= likogenezo, e.c.). >>> Ma de la vidpunto di internacioneso, *glukoso esas p= lu apta (DEFIRS). >>> La Akademio di Esperanto adoptis "glikozo" en la Unes= ma Oficala Adjunto, >>> ma pose remplasigis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Of= icala Adjunto. >>> >>> >> > > --94eb2c04f2eeeb64f605455931f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, Gilles-Philippe, me preferas "glikoso" (anke en mea = matrala linguo, en qua uzesas la du formi "glicose" e "gluco= se"), ma to esas nur mea personala prefero, evidente.

2017-01-05 = 13:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.c= om>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, nu... se internaciones= o ne koheras, quon selektar inter la du? "glukoso" o "glikos= o"?

201= 7-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Gilles= -Philippe, me preferas koheranta internaacioneso :-)

2017-01-05 2:37 GMT+00:00= Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroup= s.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. K= a to signifikas, ke tu preferas kohero vice internacioneso?

<= div>Nam de la vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apta vorto (= glikogeno, glikogenezo, e.c.).
Ma de la vidpunto di internaciones= o, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS).
La Akademio di Esperanto adop= tis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, ma pose remplasigis l= u da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto.


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--94eb2c04f2eeeb64f605455931f6-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4681 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 57358 invoked by uid 102); 5 Jan 2017 13:56:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m16.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2017 13:56:46 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 17908 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2017 13:56:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2017 13:56:46 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.45 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: u4sAR_0WLDtYC6NQvl1aGTF3ZCTjC6lWY5IPaN5T9ODXMyzJ kQz18DqE1dgBZSdJYf1G0HeJBpVnr.qMwholrAAAEiHwSuud.PQgCOGZ0Wbk rZkqZ1BenH2mRDOQuXpyj7Myu3UFjdH3R7RbmM4XNEYhfC2bhAW8F3_DrNRU xszEmyVQPRwwFHHOQ75l7fCWf9IXYJ78zY7DBNFle3FnbZNm88j3ocGBoPX6 epjL28XolIplZXp6KCNwAphSMaCVZFceSTyyIWiNuGEgBMrEmRGZGDSXTJeT wQZELa9X74IkZ6cBAoWSSLBAxkdxeCPT_9ER554SIlXmpK1WRsdrnkEyfhl6 qeAGh.Ixhnyz.sbLFcMXaw69y5ltmwI.dgbmi6hg032uFdvW8zdBlVpa9Eqe bb6S5CUej4EyvKjAEEpQzERKfLzFROxgVzLMnv5.asmx6XQcdUnex5ArkPEC L1MhXAOrpHr1A04Zd92jQrh8kbHaUdKjg_Cp3jsQxJeTsrHisgHaumh07_xc AMG2O6YcksWhFpr2WAkEFzkpK0j4l26bPPVZdXyv53A.xXN9_IXhB0MhB2UP NwCGapq6nO.TuteDG6v7e91Modizg2sSsiwdrYCWVVUGNytNAMXfNgFjHWVc E8yOPaCnktqg.aBUb1oy8ZsQkML362oAmEMO9P.FrDW8ogWnKto4E4pp1ed5 hy0KlK6HXq4AYn.5_n1jxaGpaTeE.z56LGzhgg01HpYqyAaIMq_t2U3aM6xy v32ukU3STzuvXqfLtGRBYMEnEBtr_fkzGhc.9M85lw6blw1KwVQdOJXfr9aF tB.WgKeAPjtfbPOYXRODe3SJAHg10rCU9.MdA_wyBzsyPP52VjwjC65wfwI1 UNMxHW9ybiEQtLPzvrn.v0M0aUOY08nKkOt_8hAGQd7H9ai_eC61eKjhkw5. otrDZPzgfT4PgCl0p2YJUjvg5LyVCMRnqP6juG5gnfPW3cbYxpJnJLED.PuM 7xJZcynpgBLegYlhS1Vs9HZtdn_CbmGGhhiDLlKc0gzCJqyuBLV6wnkCtQ3m PEWsw2qdfti87Fb0DN4zY24GAPWau8G9VChqEYdI5Dfn_vBQ2fzTBERzrysu 6.XK.fF.D8vIjLyT6m1Z8Zir1VV2vP4Q2jdZDCWNj3neqeLFdn8t76geNkQN 385xdm_xVS.PwpgDr04Wipt2fB.UvB5DpfDBeoAluispmdzBKz0dJb2pIT8y DoCSjVHkTjn7V8EmysymfyVNw9SW9WtJd.9HT5HeQeeTX0Xdudc1WIBRaHdz PbHtSwgVvYy2EE7hturOX_bCMseWEsb_C3Q680KGh4TphLySa.IMnoJ1RuXI H_0rpOLkRtqKC6UC6TCVqC1pcUSJDmUUlfirQulYQREE_EdtKIciTPFNCGdz YyjDvj3LFXI0v2WbFbCR8AH0o5Gv9V18ltZjAKGahmRTomdYf.V7HaOjtpSw o3D3zqlZu8rEOiLh2zQtwEDsSImFgOFC9wR1qSF3Yqy_W9nxNrOjLVQtAGKD H0OjvGoeRJ2lINVkfvI4OtXuJ6dYJZ7gibwaw2qAac5pQ7Pe3l2s.AcDCBuO .vtobQqkvFXWPO.5EmwMW0R1pzT5 Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f45.google.com) (209.85.215.45) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 13:56:46 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f45.google.com with SMTP id d16so33373699lfb.1 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 05:56:46 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=qLMBl3RHtV7CVhJ1fehNfhpzpbV7lP7xBnlvB8wYT18=; b=JGwGi2REZbrZIsFEfonuYANBO+liEB960UuCu/TrQzbFrWYCSY/ivKYOG46j7paYhf bCrfXpIe1lLc1A1G/azwF4QLFdJSvTN8k4/l6Hh2zRX7GmS57q6UG+NtA/S3r9JmtWRX TxbGM0Uyb7vvTO5jzGaUQoM7nP7YvjcCnh9dTu0X+E5g2UbrZDLvG/03CBpB83h3NP91 rfVymnvEQ8MKusgh/zf1GxdLbFsMkWNfhIaI7P+WrxoWkKkC2Wk+AbzfmRbE0ZcR8AQg IaQDfajKhdrKmWZRORV8sKN/VMuou8wjvktlw9hrQAvslbASa3CvuPmb6AjfEbmzLV7B jKfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIIa29kVhoKPbUBsICZkppKTdeN/gswWX9bZPdiVk6PXIbtiAJ7iJ/aky2V4azM25cvEnD9qPDuqHktyw== X-Received: by 10.46.7.10 with SMTP id 10mr26859508ljh.60.1483624604730; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 05:56:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 05:56:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:56:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec3c28b92b50545594533 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec3c28b92b50545594533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara James e kara Partaka, Danko pro la informo. Per sercho, me ya trovis = ta ok vorti en la yena pagino: http://www.ido.li/index.php/ULI/IR2011 To s= emblas konfirmar la oficaleso di "chao". Arto, se tu lektas ca mesajo, vol= untez aceptar mea exkuzo pro la miskompreno en Wikivortaro. Me kredis, tote= certe, ke "chao" esis neoficala. Me eroris. 2017-01-05 8:24 GMT-05:00 qua= levistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Y= en publika mesajo da Tiberio (datizita ye 1-1-2011), ube il informas > ofic= ale (kom lora Lingual Sekretario) pri l'unesma ok vorti aprobita dal > Ling= ual Komitato. > ------- > Hola, samideani! > > Me havas la plezuro komunika= r a vi omna ke la Linguala Komitato aprobis > ica nova vorti: > achento, ar= obo, autostopo, basketbalo, bebeo, blogo, chao e datumo. > > Chao, samidean= i! > > Tiberio Madonna > (via Linguala Sekretario) > ------- > > (Partaka)= > > > --f403045ec3c28b92b50545594533 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara James e kara Partaka,
Danko pro la informo.
=

Per sercho, me ya trovis ta ok vorti en la yena pagino:=

To semblas konfi= rmar la oficaleso di "chao".

Arto, se tu= lektas ca mesajo, voluntez aceptar mea exkuzo pro la miskompreno en Wikivo= rtaro. Me kredis, tote certe, ke "chao" esis neoficala. Me eroris= .

2017= -01-05 8:24 GMT-05:00 qualevista= ndas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >:
=C2=A0 =
=

Yen publika mesajo da Tiberio (datizit= a ye 1-1-2011), ube il informas oficale (kom lora Lingual Sekretario) pri l= 'unesma ok vorti aprobita dal Lingual Komitato.

-------=C2=A0
Hola, samidean= i!

Me havas la plezuro komunikar a vi omna ke la Linguala Komitato apr= obis ica nova vorti:
achento, arobo, autosto= po, basketbalo, bebeo, blogo, chao e datumo.

<= span style=3D"color:rgb(63,63,63);font-size:13px">Chao, samideani!
Tib= erio Madonna
(via Linguala Sekretario)=C2=A0=
-------=C2=A0
<= br>
=C2=A0(Partaka)


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La pagino pri glikoso en la Portugalana Wikipedio= ya konfirmas ke "glicose" esas la maxim uzata espelo: https://pt.wikipedia= .org/wiki/Glicose Tamen, quale tu lo savas, la Portugalana ne esas un ek l= a fontolingui. DEFIRS semblas preferar "glukoso". Olim, ante ke Ido kreesi= s, la Franca uzis "glycose" apus "glucose". =C3=89mile Littr=C3=A9 mem tre = forte argumentis por ta e mokis ca, ma ca divenis la maxim uzata vorto. "Gl= ycose" esas nun tote obsoleta. Simile, quon tu opinionas pri vorti tal qua= la "nevrologio" en Ido? Ta vorto semblas suportesar da "nevroso", qua esas= nur FIR. Ni anke havas "neurono", do me ne komprenas pro quo ni havus "ne= vrologio" vice *neurologio ecepte pro ulaspeca pseudoprefixo *nevro-* koher= anta. Se to esus pro ulaspeca desfacileso por la Rusi, ni havus *nevrono, k= a ne? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-05 8:51 GMT-05:00 Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.= com>: > > > Nu, Gilles-Philippe, me preferas "glikoso" (anke en mea matral= a linguo, en > qua uzesas la du formi "glicose" e "glucose"), ma to esas nu= r mea personala > prefero, evidente. > > 2017-01-05 13:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-= Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo, nu... se internacioneso ne koheras, quon sel= ektar inter la du? >> "glukoso" o "glikoso"? >> >> 2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:0= 0 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] >> : >> >>> >>> >>> Gilles-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internac= ioneso :-) >>> >>> 2017-01-05 2:37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin= @gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>>> >>>> >= >>> Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. Ka to signifikas, ke tu preferas ko= hero >>>> vice internacioneso? >>>> >>>> Nam de la vidpunto di kohero, "gli= koso" esas plu apta vorto (glikogeno, >>>> glikogenezo, e.c.). >>>> Ma de l= a vidpunto di internacioneso, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS). >>>> La Akad= emio di Esperanto adoptis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala >>>> Adjunto, ma p= ose remplasigis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto. >>>> >>>> >>>= >> > > --f403045ea59033cc690545596d92 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gon=C3=A7alo,
Se tu prizas kohero neinternaciona, me d= o povas komprenar tua vidpunto pri "glikoso".

La pagino pri glikoso en la Portugalana Wikipedio ya konfirmas ke &qu= ot;glicose" esas la maxim uzata espelo:

Tamen, quale tu lo savas, la Portugalana ne esas = un ek la fontolingui. DEFIRS semblas preferar "glukoso".

Olim, ante ke Ido kreesis, la Franca uzis "glycose&qu= ot; apus "glucose". =C3=89mile Littr=C3=A9 mem tre forte argument= is por ta e mokis ca, ma ca divenis la maxim uzata vorto. "Glycose&quo= t; esas nun tote obsoleta.

Simile, quon tu opinion= as pri vorti tal quala "nevrologio" en Ido?

<= div>Ta vorto semblas suportesar da "nevroso", qua esas nur FIR.

Ni anke havas "neurono", do me ne kompren= as pro quo ni havus "nevrologio" vice *neurologio ecepte pro ulas= peca pseudoprefixo nevro-=C2=A0koheranta. Se to esus pro ulaspeca de= sfacileso por la Rusi, ni havus *nevrono, ka ne?

K= un kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-05 8:51 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7= alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [lin= guolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Nu, Gilles-Philippe, me preferas "glikoso" (anke en mea ma= trala linguo, en qua uzesas la du formi "glicose" e "glucose= "), ma to esas nur mea personala prefero, evidente.
<= span class=3D"">

2017-01-05 13:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Gon=C3=A7alo, nu... se internacioneso ne koheras, quon selektar inter la = du? "glukoso" o "glikoso"?

2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo N= eves gneves64@gmail= .com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0=

<= /p>

Gilles-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internacioneso := -)

2017-01-05 2:37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro= la informo. Ka to signifikas, ke tu preferas kohero vice internacioneso?
Nam de la vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esas pl= u apta vorto (glikogeno, glikogenezo, e.c.).
Ma de la vidpunto di= internacioneso, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS).
La Akademio di = Esperanto adoptis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, ma pose= remplasigis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto.
<= /div>


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--f403045ea59033cc690545596d92-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4683 Return-Path: X-Sender: artomo@jippii.fi X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 43086 invoked by uid 102); 5 Jan 2017 15:37:14 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m15.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2017 15:37:14 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 20507 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2017 15:37:14 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2017 15:37:14 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of jippii.fi does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: 03kpIbEWLDsYCTVaoo28gLglc5ouG.cCYY170f_wXyCnLMZi _5Jq.lH0FZiSXc6lBjraGT38doZ61U4oQcP5hZw7f2NmUTe7tyLZx8_6eRJz s057XLnwFbFf3uolCJMh4PfzDXmtOzPsMYfYWKta.3FfKD.xNHZHOWWPlsk2 335Vw5PtfhFdw2WOSgfwRZtPG6xRz9sqQKBv5IsQZ0WQjnjPQimZrcghjZad meC0fjBpjgkQODsm5Jl4YrpPcLJJHPRHF1eQYlOpkjvvlgIvkCaVeQ_HNImc koexSahI2GZI4DBJ4jhPSTsLUjSLKlP.BdZJkrjyrIATz2td4X_5V42vMdTR evYdC0ZkGJTaEqAA_SOgkV2.tx1lzFyg0IbU25ZHAylr6FueufQHhyLhpgEL 8e92YvA2Sq.jKt9TLSg2fSIcjgxPq9oWC.RlKrtNfbHfzIUssfvj4r6JkRiz Bxtzmj1IkYpV3Z_yCI.2M4Fw4c95dWRO4kkZRmbWApXC5WB_V9D8rAALOyvC B7gcdQeN9hnkNhP7zWtahkLSCTRDXxfVaYojSaXCNS_PTbCp9hQxdgI558bv AGcT0PdE5petjKd9Gvzb4ppmutQ3P1fXlRRV065.WG2KqFteq.fJn2DrIRUq 86FjYQwHfDJuaj3sEGZbyoJhqvUAcUK_QSMuc_ZxpwxcPLzznDQzUI53Nr1P MjzneG9AaIsGf2KTmQQTNGqqlMdUkJ6cpwEVjAZKlshj6o8469fRpfu.d4im ACylvNTcjiYj95O5uaJdsrno1yzzcZ7dF1drUzpK36J2Op3WzCbzFNFFKTxO g8woKHnDWdgb7AUI.94mesueQdvFMGCB90IPMcH3duhv0LNs73J50EehKcTG dXln5IEmFlvHOD_2Aer9G1DmfJ8N.QbJezY585vckUcBvQtqzAA5E5Mv0hrL _zLLyp2lol6M2AhP4Fn_zIWk5cf9Vzdf21iRjQqxJaQ0G736TYImdnmTdDty mso5Iu9pOLinqVTB0mJ3zmQAe8f6_EicEkCGiHti0M22dvPJKPZG9rOXGbhh fMDFvfBsOMwHRXfvGxsv5clnNCyMDtxRVp6eZ_s6ENbP6iYHi1N3VlhA.q7p zhv0hCC_15Xt2uYCR.Rvm0jBesPvRVq9fQV6BwCW2hHMyOs00_ocjQKQ8a_d MiX3vwCgAcqfyeolZekLrwHJSec7DouQNa8_RyeHKiTr8QG21Y.rg6JwC34Z h_YjUpKTEQ-- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=jippii.fi; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=jippii.fi; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO gw01.mail.saunalahti.fi) (195.197.172.115) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 15:37:14 +0000 X-Received: from cfwo-22-2.mail.saunalahti.fi (cfwo-22.mail.saunalahti.fi [62.142.5.121]) by gw01.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3AB6400DC for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 17:37:12 +0200 (EET) X-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cfwo-22-2.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4FF820076 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 17:37:12 +0200 (EET) X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2-saunamods_5.22 (2011-06-06) on cfwo-22.mail.saunalahti.fi X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.0 required=7.0 tests=FREEMAIL_FROM,FREEMAIL_REPLY shortcircuit=no autolearn=no version=3.3.2-saunamods_5.22 X-Received: from webmail.elisa.fi (wm-web13.pa.saunalahti.fi [195.197.1.106]) by cfwo-22-2.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A2D20072 for ; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 17:37:12 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 17:37:12 +0200 To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com In-Reply-To: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Message-ID: X-Sender: artomo@jippii.fi User-Agent: Elisa Webmail/1.0 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=180601659; y=26ot5NK49xREW7hDyQCbwj9uthB95qJrC4yk0msJDdmJT8qZR80 X-Yahoo-Profile: arto_moisio From: artomo@jippii.fi Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] kirjoitti 5.1.2017 15:56: > Kara James e kara Partaka, > Danko pro la informo. > > Per sercho, me ya trovis ta ok vorti en la yena pagino: > http://www.ido.li/index.php/ULI/IR2011 [1] > > To semblas konfirmar la oficaleso di "chao". > > Arto, se tu lektas ca mesajo, voluntez aceptar mea exkuzo pro la > miskompreno en Wikivortaro. Me kredis, tote certe, ke "chao" esis > neoficala. Me eroris. > > 2017-01-05 8:24 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] > : > Me preske finis sequar omna revizi pri la oficaleso di la vorti. Esus tre simpla montrar neoficaleso di la vorti en Wikivortaro, sen blinda entuziasmo fanatika. - Arto From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4684 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 18908 invoked by uid 102); 5 Jan 2017 15:59:06 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2017 15:59:06 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 815 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2017 15:59:06 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.81) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Jan 2017 15:59:06 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 2zisl1cWLDsvedX.JburNWiWiy47rcbPr4.ShPGL2GukGd3t efiTaMwgg0vPKtJO7u8rrtlJw94v0ASgEXZ.mFyBo3IqP8DQC_NsrB9xC5vg 1fe_87psWX81AzVQLNQ97aYnv.0MvFCZFfVZ5B3GWsFgzf2Q6iua.CZr33oh DEBZPadfH_ODfVdlb.Z5ip9kLRruDj3pNTpboG4ohqHirrk19URG6yamqYv7 wBrJ1H0QKKSTBwaWSEJAfydhxDOu3Ba01O4NV1_vQ6OSZh45pFCEspOprYi3 T.jmvOplRSXLDI9.Tl4V5_iY30NAt1ctRA95dC2jhgfdYNrKzNUAxnu5paRI rAD3RnxnC1MjDORz9PVwIutCAG.M2dEU3fUpEOIUVtE3ITld_lYf4Rrrz6TT hAMupfvW7P14uQ_0UHH.cWH_t_eUPt_kz8xlLOK12mLGp0SrkIrInZQ1pikb aKx.3EtSytuovfjZZDlHwVJHb9GfKxUbUZuNFEQJxa70Vlj9jxxP_eAeo40i DCpxy0.oh2Zcq3AE.fWlOWiVzHqkGAoGTUjStiHqo6rSjJHdayjM3.W4d9N5 7lJOtWWbQo_dABemImMqJvYHsssrssJYcSt3KIf2dfeLl0dTrgbCCuRp9PFP uEUS4aiD56hRZSAQe0v0AlOCnodY87RO_a0uAAfTAt_47zOMv7GAaDZoIiGk J2T8wFF9XyfJ7OIiLPK.yfA6.TWRLiEP_pgJWTYZxNS3tNdfkKAfC.h5s8Sg VKdZRSNmvzITW__qPiimr.WGwkbit9j6Cmz_ITxcg37dAuFaCh3ooFpynTuZ VIjWqpXdQywTXm7FZeG.XUjlQIUUoyAZQDicn1Dp6LjHYCySsHdvwptSwp5B GFJvqLr3WQyK1vkqZWmdOjKbuxsYMTCmPaAOV1xk52rffCFL7G61CbzizxVC G12n8ZqhkM87pegsLo830XpddJpgQAs6KRS1WfRaPacEd18C2e0d5c3exCLQ X6713OUG83osfkGsKh0UXWBdgiKAHrsTdaAu_7aZJ_c5C3E8FuL1q0L2eHXm 4_HUmpAqMViYp5_wHnVRo3TWRXkHgTGveKav5BJRPqC3KdpnuAHlbhw3Dma6 p6T1iVavIVFBEevRJ_WD0UwBt16fK49UMlyNxDSvvlgmp00DZ1QOMvy.7wjA 4xk6l0.QmUDeP3zU9eO8gyxBoYAf6DCj3BqhaZcOrC1CnnL3x4eQr7nnuA_t riU065dNmCB.FHue.rZBcg8RQzXEh4L2nQLR3ykHkMKK3mXm75NPAW6MgEe6 KfqV5p_e8oI8ODt7j7lF4vasUC0rU299L3DPUVH6ss.MA6mOLIP_p2_UHOGf aYBuUXxPEWFSHMPxlsT.NKa5rQp9qmfFWJ4KDt16O3gSTcc0KEntSZrHd7yX otlL3Zo.wAqwmMpn61LR4kT47ulGFPXiVqmpRUVW65ZYzIrOwlmergc3wbXp YQX_eoaghQnz82IBxGxJ9NhAOKi65MnFLzRA7Xy7LUtA3xJdz_8M6WBAS_98 pFaxOEV5igfg.rdsQal1iXofO5P7re5AbiylfBJoLVYFY6Wj5oNkGiTWf.a8 bn3.MygYk.eCDzT.AEc05oCexN5kBQ-- Authentication-Results: mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f50.google.com) (209.85.215.50) by mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 15:59:06 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f50.google.com with SMTP id m78so16129999lfg.2 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 07:59:05 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=DsHB3I0Gij8BqY5/yoyIUMFeY1QrfDIfNRRxUf9eSxQ=; b=nrUzeHTignKRr/vpFGqWL/BWBrf42Y7WRzGHyuGJFOO3FRrsWl4KnUhQr0Rsr5DIvP 6XquSVD+NssrVxHBRi0hRQNqq1o0e7GVLPNWdY7L1WSCEWB/PZs0cafGXysSxdP7yW5s 6panngOeouAJ5ukDeTBsVwP19lIOXswnpcEvYegU9dKHGRTbRnF+Smw9r8dL1DQUHkAe LmPAlzIK2MX5uM7uTyQ63Qx+bGfOC6xiJi4KYs+vUOKRLGVMu8y2IHgODz23ptMrx7ps L3mV0pZPobM9Ya+dWkxrVyl8sQhSUpo6Rxy6aXbZy5ZputI1wy1SN2ICQZXZcn2VgJjV FpRw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKOBLKe5L4DnPSo0WQXSHhtz3bfFQ5DergPjXCTYg0c8SseDIcfOOidP9Y60f7CQuQx5LT0+GhOBwRVcw== X-Received: by 10.25.56.22 with SMTP id f22mr22514386lfa.0.1483631944557; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 07:59:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 07:59:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 10:59:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ea0aa08678b05455afba6 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ea0aa08678b05455afba6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu, Arto, semblas ke la uzero "Jopali" ne konkordas kun tu... Gilles-Phili= ppe 2017-01-05 10:37 GMT-05:00 artomo@jippii.fi [linguolisto] < linguolist= o@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguo= listo] kirjoitti > 5.1.2017 15:56: > > Kara James e kara Partaka, > > Danko= pro la informo. > > > > Per sercho, me ya trovis ta ok vorti en la yena pa= gino: > > http://www.ido.li/index.php/ULI/IR2011 [1] > > > > To semblas kon= firmar la oficaleso di "chao". > > > > Arto, se tu lektas ca mesajo, volunt= ez aceptar mea exkuzo pro la > > miskompreno en Wikivortaro. Me kredis, tot= e certe, ke "chao" esis > > neoficala. Me eroris. > > > > 2017-01-05 8:24 G= MT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] > > : > > > Me preske finis sequar omna revizi pri la oficaleso di la vort= i. Esus > tre simpla montrar neoficaleso di la vorti en Wikivortaro, sen bl= inda > entuziasmo fanatika. - Arto > > > --f403045ea0aa08678b05455afba6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, Arto, semblas ke la uzero "Jopali" ne konkor= das kun tu...

Gilles-Philippe
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Kara Gilles-Philippe,
 
Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido:
exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.
 
Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su = expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi).
 
Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:
contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar.
 
Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
 
Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" ulu.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
-----------
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 29 Dec 2016 19:31:51 -0500: 
Kara samideani,
Me havas questiono pri la transitiveso di du verbi.


Unesme, la verbo "expresar".


On povas expresar ulo, ma kad on povas expresar ulu?


Me ofte lektas en moderna texti la expresuro "expresar su", qua certe venas de plura naturala lingui (nome la Angla e la Franca). Ma kande me lektas la Kompleta Gramatiko, me trovas nur "expresar (sua) idei", "expresar la tempo", "expresar hezito", e.c., do nur "expresar [ulo]".


Tamen, kande me serchis che Pesch, me trovis:
Destruktar to quo esas justa, sana, pura en la maniero judikar, sentar, expresar su; (cf. koruptar)


Ka to esas korekta? Kad on povas expresar ulu tale quale on expresas ulo?


Duesme, la verbo "kontredicar".


Kad on kontredicas ulu od ulo?


Segun Dyer, "kontredicar" esas fakte "kontre-dic-ar", do on komencale analizez la verbo "dicar".


On dicas ulo ad ulu. To esas quon Dyer dicas (cf. dicar). Pluse lu adjuntas:


Dicar sempre relatas ula objekto. (cf. dicar)


Segun la Kompleta Gramatiko (sub "Kompozajo per prepozicioni"), on trovas co:


On atencez, ke la kompozado per prepozicioni ne chanjas la direta komplemento dil verbo (kande ica esas transitiva): en limpida aquo, on travidas la stoneti dil fundo; on ne travidas la aquo ipsa. Konseque l'adjektivo travidebla povas aplikesar nur a la stoneti, e ne a la aquo ipsa; ol ne povas signifikar diafana, ma nur (segun sua elementi) videbla tra. Simile on supervarsas aquo sur flori; quo esas supervarsita? La aquo, e ne la flori. Do on ne darfas dicar (quale Espo) : vango supervarsita da lakrimi, ma juste : balnita, inundita da lakrimi.


Do, logikale, se on dicas ulo, on anke kontredicas ulo, ka ne? Do me povas kontredicar aserti da ulu, ma me ne povas kontredicar la homo asertinta, nu, segun la supera paragrafo.


Or me trovis la sequanta extraktaji en la Kompleta Gramatiko ipsa:
Esperanto esas tante min imitinda pri ca punto, ke dicinte ĉiuj tiuj (kiuj), ol kontredicas su ipsa, dicante tiuj kelkaj (kiuj).
[L']ideo dil pluralo ne adjuntesas al ideo dil singularo: ol kontredicas lu absolute.

Ka to esas ecepto, nam linguo (Esperanto) e ideo esas koncepti vice homi?


Me pose serchis che Pesch. Yen quon me trovis:


dementiar: {tr} 1. Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo exakta. 2. Kontredicar (to quon dicas ulu) kom ne-exakta. - FHI


Ho ve! Por la sama vorto on parolas pri kontredicar ulu e kontredicar ulo da ulu. Quon selectar?


Me anke trovis "su-kontredici" che Pesch (cf. ironio), ta qua semblas indikar ke on kontredicas ulu.


Ironie, Pesch "su-kontredicas" en la defini di dementiar!


En Dyer on anke trovas "su-kontre-dic-anta" e "inter-kontre-dic-anta". 


Do, quale solvar la problemi?


Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe
 
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Yen la unesma defino che Pesch: "Kontredicar (ulu) ko= m nedicinta lo exakta". La duesma defino che Pesch ("kontredicar (to quon d= icas ulu) kom neexakta" supozigas ke "dementiar" esas apta por expresar ank= e la senco "kontredicar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dyer ne tote konkordas, = nam il atribuas transitiveso nur al unuesma senco ("dementiar ulu") e prefe= ras rekursar a netransitiveso por expresar la duesma ("dementiar pri ulo").= To esas detalo negrava, segun me. Irgakaze, on povas rekursar anke al verb= o "refutar" por expresar la duesma senco, ka ne? Kordiale, Gon=C3=A7alo = 2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < l= inguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > Segun la gran= da lexiko Franca-Ido: > exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-pre= sar; s'-- : expresar > su, parolar. > > Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri= su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica > exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (= 2) la persono expresata reprezentas o > metafore esas lua pensi (expresar s= u =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas > ulakaze konsiderar persono kom= kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi). > > Plu desfacila esas vua due= sma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en > lia granda lexiko: > contr= edire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; > (mutuellement= ) inter-kontre-dicar. > > Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike o= n povas kontre-dicar nur > ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me = povas nur supozar ke ico > pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias = od altramaniere eroras. > > Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke= ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? > Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar"= qui diferas per ke on > demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar= nula verbo por "dicar" > ulu. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > > --94eb2c04f2ee63878d05455da737 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kara Robert,

<= /div>
Me supozas ke "dementiar" esas apta vorto= por expresar la senco "kontredicar ulu". Yen la unesma defino ch= e Pesch: "Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo exakta". La duesma d= efino che Pesch ("kontredicar (to quon dicas ulu) kom neexakta" s= upozigas ke "dementiar" esas apta por expresar anke la senco &quo= t;kontredicar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dyer ne tote konkordas, nam i= l atribuas transitiveso nur al unuesma senco ("dementiar ulu") e = preferas rekursar a netransitiveso por expresar la duesma ("dementiar = pri ulo"). To esas detalo negrava, segun me. Irgakaze, on povas rekurs= ar anke al verbo "refutar" por expresar la duesma senco, ka ne?
Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo



2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gilles-Philippe,
=C2=A0
Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido:
<= div>exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un = jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.
=C2=A0
Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pr= i su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2= ) la persono expresata reprezentas o metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su = =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas ulakaze konsiderar persono kom koz= o (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi).
=C2=A0
Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L.= de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:
contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kon= tre-dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar.
=C2=A0
Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas jus= ta, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua = aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem expert= i oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
=C2=A0
Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke = ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar= " e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on demandas ulo ma on pregas= ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" ulu.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0<= /div>

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Kara Gonçalo,
 
Pri "dementiar", semblas ke ankorfoye Pesch eroras. La lexiko Franca-Ido dicas "dementiar (ulu, pri ulo), quale Dyer. On ne dementias ulo dicita. Tamen refutar aserto od opiniono ne esas simple expresar altra opiniono ma (segun Dyer) "kombatar aserto od opiniono per argumenti, qui nuligas ol o qui pruvas la kontreajo".
 
Dyer semblas indikar ke dementiar esas (quale forsan la etimologio montras?) akuzo o preske akuzo pri mentio, od adminime plu forta e publika kam (eroroze) "kontre-dicar".
 
Pri "nevroso" e cetere, voluntez ignorar kritiki e skribez pri vua hipotezo.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
-----------
 
 
Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:10:25 +0000: 


Kara Robert,


Me supozas ke "dementiar" esas apta vorto por expresar la senco "kontredicar ulu". Yen la unesma defino che Pesch: "Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo exakta". La duesma defino che Pesch ("kontredicar (to quon dicas ulu) kom neexakta" supozigas ke "dementiar" esas apta por expresar anke la senco "kontredicar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dyer ne tote konkordas, nam il atribuas transitiveso nur al unuesma senco ("dementiar ulu") e preferas rekursar a netransitiveso por expresar la duesma ("dementiar pri ulo"). To esas detalo negrava, segun me. Irgakaze, on povas rekursar anke al verbo "refutar" por expresar la duesma senco, ka ne?


Kordiale,


Gonçalo






2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
 
Kara Gilles-Philippe,
 
Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido:
exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.
 
Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su = expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi).
 
Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:
contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar.
 
Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
 
Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" ulu.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 


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Semblas ke en vort-libri imprimita ante 2000 la vorto "eutanazio" esas nur en ta da Pesch. Ol semblas esar vorto bona ed utila. Yes, esus bona adoptar verbo transitiva "eutanaziar", de qua la substantivo esus derivebla reguloze.
Robert C.
 
-----------
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sat, 31 Dec 2016 01:16:12 -0500: 
Me trovis la sequanta radiko en Wikivortaro:
eutanazi/o


Or en la Franca on anke trovas la verbo (transitiva) euthanasier.
En la Angla on trovas la verbo (transitiva) to euthanize.


Kad on ne povas takaze uzar "eutanaziar"?


Se ne, quale tradukar euthanasier e to euthanize? Ka per dicar "mortigar (ulu od ulo) per eutanazio"?


Yen exempli:
Depos junio 2016, eutanazio en Kanada esas legala. Kelka mediki povas do eutanaziar* certena kuracati segun certena kondicioni.
Hiere, me eutanaziigis* mea kato malada.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


P.S. Kad on povas dicar "mort/ig/ig/ar"? Nu, lu semblas stranja en Ido, ma ulkaze ta vorto esas utila.
mortigigar = igar (ulu) mortigar (ulu od ulo) = igar (ulu) igar (ulu od ulo) mortar
Here, me mortigigis mea kato malada da la veterinaro.
(Do la veterinaro mortigis mea kato.)
(Do mea kato mortis.)
(Advere mea kato ne mortis.)
(Nam me ne havas kato.)
(Nek hundo.)
(Fortunoze me havas kreveto.)
(E fishi.)
(Ed ucelo.)
(E mea genitori.)
(Ma me ne proprietas li.)
(Kad on proprietas kato o ka la kato proprietas onu?)
(Nu, bona nokto.)
 
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Emnf_ZQjLlUcS.zqMcGLPjlggDnaWRDdFESn2Hcqy2n7ZrdB.abivTJEODbe l4vtwA-- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f173.google.com) (209.85.217.173) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 23:12:41 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f173.google.com with SMTP id i68so287892280uad.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 15:12:41 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ztiP39MhqCpYSPrVNzD/mMNHB+4vo7Xe07u0OmCWZ2g=; b=JRv8D/lHvGabnza8OX2mu1bWO6lzsnQ63qwmSezmbBg1f80Vivpfbql9mQUqdC2Rsu xjW0hp4qlXn8BzdcRnqaJSl7BEPyGcwUi016vom4safuj0AV4Vx2axF2Cfi+62DB/ACw yUX5oUyiOslhMHN4sd78+OX/SmSl9QJaRlshAKnehD+By/+ekmidpi35rd0HZS9Blfdt 6ef+X1yWfLgDn/sxNrENYH4s5xSScfiIMYkmnVYFsi5IwQwJAVa/We/VwIdnhk37ouWk 5i+z2layZT18OHuyRhYSCKDswIHyQmnVTeesDCjHlGRm1kvYHVlpIiNt/Wj3/FqmJJlY mo0A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKAFEuUXWEPLRGZINH6hvpmr2uUFW7ioBSHx1kkPxrLnLUuH4iRwkJxWkaOuXpgGllxVbJr/ILRVyAjsA== X-Received: by 10.176.0.169 with SMTP id 38mr1982600uaj.46.1483657960828; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 15:12:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 15:12:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20171521838.457771@D9B5MN3J> References: <20171521838.457771@D9B5MN3J> Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 23:12:40 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c169dab933c10545610932 Subject: Re: [linguo] Pri "expresar" e "kontredicar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=L7hWTn_jIjz4eIeh06c0FYX8s-4IQCIqP5a22QtkuCFRtOG3Fn_N2A X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a11c169dab933c10545610932 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Robert, Semblas ke vu esas justa: la ago dementiar expresas ulo plusa= ultre nura kontredico: koncernesas ya kontredico qua vizas pruvar mentio, = od adminime mentiemeso o mentiatra aserto, dal kunparolanto. Konseque, por = expresar kontredico koncernanta ne dicajo ma persono, on povas simple uzar = ta verbo netransitive per adjuntita prepoziciono, exemple: "ne kontredicez = a me!", "pro quo tu kontredicis a mea patro?", "per ta aserti vu kontredica= s a vu ipsa". To forsan solvas la problemo. Pri "nevroso" me parolos pose.= Kordiale, Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-05 21:08 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@ave= nue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Gon=C3= =A7alo, > > Pri "dementiar", semblas ke ankorfoye Pesch eroras. La lexiko F= ranca-Ido > dicas "dementiar (ulu, pri ulo), quale Dyer. On ne dementias ul= o dicita. > Tamen refutar aserto od opiniono ne esas simple expresar altra = opiniono ma > (segun Dyer) "kombatar aserto od opiniono per argumenti, qui = nuligas ol o > qui pruvas la kontreajo". > > Dyer semblas indikar ke dement= iar esas (quale forsan la etimologio > montras?) akuzo o preske akuzo pri m= entio, od adminime plu forta e publika > kam (eroroze) "kontre-dicar". > > = Pri "nevroso" e cetere, voluntez ignorar kritiki e skribez pri vua > hipote= zo. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > ----------- > > > Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves= 64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:10:25 > +0000: > > > Kara R= obert, > > > Me supozas ke "dementiar" esas apta vorto por expresar la senc= o > "kontredicar ulu". Yen la unesma defino che Pesch: "Kontredicar (ulu) k= om > nedicinta lo exakta". La duesma defino che Pesch ("kontredicar (to quo= n > dicas ulu) kom neexakta" supozigas ke "dementiar" esas apta por expresa= r > anke la senco "kontredicar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dyer ne tote > ko= nkordas, nam il atribuas transitiveso nur al unuesma senco ("dementiar > ul= u") e preferas rekursar a netransitiveso por expresar la duesma > ("dementi= ar pri ulo"). To esas detalo negrava, segun me. Irgakaze, on povas > rekurs= ar anke al verbo "refutar" por expresar la duesma senco, ka ne? > > > Kordi= ale, > > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > > > > > 2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.= ' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > Kara= Gilles-Philippe, > > Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido: > exprimer (tr.) e= xpresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar > su, parolar. > > = Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica = > exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o > = metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darf= as > ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante ho= mi). > > Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Coutu= rat en > lia granda lexiko: > contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-mem= e) kontre-dicar su; > (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar. > > Tamen, semblas= a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur > ulo dicita (m= e ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico > pruvas ke, de= foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras. > > Icakaze rest= as problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? > Ni havas du= simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on > demandas ulo ma= on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" > ulu. > > Kordi= ale, > Robert C. > > > > > --001a11c169dab933c10545610932 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert,

Semblas ke vu = esas justa: la ago dementiar expresas ulo plusa ultre nura kontredico: konc= ernesas ya kontredico qua vizas pruvar mentio, od adminime mentiemeso o men= tiatra aserto, dal kunparolanto. Konseque, por expresar kontredico koncerna= nta ne dicajo ma persono, on povas simple uzar ta verbo netransitive per ad= juntita prepoziciono, exemple: "ne kontredicez a me!", "pro = quo tu kontredicis a mea patro?", "per ta aserti vu kontredicas a= vu ipsa". To forsan solvas la problemo.

Pri "= nevroso" me parolos pose.

= Kordiale,

<= /font>
Gon=C3=A7alo


<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
2017-01-05 21:08 G= MT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue= .me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
=C2=A0
Pri "dementiar", semblas ke ankorfoye Pesch eroras. La le= xiko Franca-Ido dicas "dementiar (ulu, pri ulo), quale Dyer. On ne dem= entias ulo dicita. Tamen refutar aserto od opiniono ne esas simple expresar= altra opiniono ma (segun Dyer) "kombatar aserto od opiniono per argum= enti, qui nuligas ol o qui pruvas la kontreajo".
=C2=A0
Dyer semblas indikar ke dementiar esas= (quale forsan la etimologio montras?) akuzo o preske akuzo pri mentio, od = adminime plu forta e publika kam (eroroze) "kontre-dicar".=
=C2=A0
Pri "nevroso"= e cetere, voluntez ignorar kritiki e skribez pri vua hipotezo.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
-----------
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0
Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com = [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:10:25 +0000:=C2=A0


Kara Robert,


Me supozas ke "dementiar" esas apta vorto por expr= esar la senco "kontredicar ulu". Yen la unesma defino che Pesch: = "Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo exakta". La duesma defino che= Pesch ("kontredicar (to quon dicas ulu) kom neexakta" supozigas = ke "dementiar" esas apta por expresar anke la senco "kontred= icar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dyer ne tote konkordas, nam il atribua= s transitiveso nur al unuesma senco ("dementiar ulu") e preferas = rekursar a netransitiveso por expresar la duesma ("dementiar pri ulo&q= uot;). To esas detalo negrava, segun me. Irgakaze, on povas rekursar anke a= l verbo "refutar" por expresar la duesma senco, ka ne?

Kordiale,


Gon=C3=A7alo

=




<= /div>
= 2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com>:
=C2=A0
Kara Gilles-Philippe,
= =C2=A0
Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido:
exprimer (tr.) expr= esar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.
=C2=A0
Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnosk= ata nur per ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata re= prezentas o metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o= (3) on darfas ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, ink= luzante homi).
=C2=A0
Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo.= L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:
contredire (tr.= ) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kont= re-dicar.
=C2=A0
= Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke log= ike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). = Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias= od altramaniere eroras.
=C2=A0
Icakaze restas problemo: qual= e dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni havas du simila v= orti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on demand= as ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar&quo= t; ulu.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0

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Gon=C3=A7alo! Ne tacez pro la ignorinda (ed ignorenda) opiniono di ce= rtena homi! Voluntez durar tua laboro, me pregas. Me lernis multe de tu e m= e deziras durar lernar de tu. Tu esas angulopetro por plu bone komprenar ni= a linguo. Quale progresus Ido sen sua bona kompreno? Voluntez, Gilles-Phil= ippe On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 12:03 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.co= m [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Me ne savas, Gi= lles-Philippe, ka "glicose" esas plu ofte uzata kam > "glucose" en la Portu= galana, o ka existas anke diferi inter la uzado di ta > vorti en Portugal e= Brazilia (l'artikli Wikipediala en la Portugalana plu > ofte skribesas da = Braziliani kam da Portugalani, nam iti esas plu multa kam > ici...). Me sav= as nur ke, kande me esis yuno ed unesmafoye audis la vorto > en skolo, mea = doceri uzis la formo "glicose". Me suspektas ke lore la formo > "glucose" j= a existis, ma me ne memoras audir o lektir ta formo lore. Me > supozas ke n= un, en universitati e ciencala medii en Portugal e Brazilia, on > preferas = la formo "glucose", forsan pro influo stranjera (precipue > Angla-lingua), = ma to esas nura supozo, e me tote ne esas certa pri to. Me > bone savas ke = la Portugalana ne apartenas al AFGHIR-klubo, e me mencionis > ol ne por sus= tenar "glikoso" en Ido, ma nur por expresar mea personala > prefero en mea = matrala linguo (en qua, exemple, on dicas "glicog=C3=A9nio" > i.a.). Anke e= n Ido me preferas "glikoso" pro kohero e "familiala integreso". > > Pri "ne= vroso" la kozo esas plu komplikita e me havas teorio (o, plu > modeste, exp= likiva hipotezo), ma me ankore mustas parlaborar e rafinar ol > ante prizen= tar ol publike. Tamen me ne savas ka me disipos mea tempo ed > energio por = parlaborar ol, lektinte certena desagreabla insinui en recenta > (e ne nur = recenta) artikli, komenti e reakti... > > 2017-01-05 14:07 GMT+00:00 Gilles= -Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo, >> Se tu prizas kohero neinternaciona, me d= o povas komprenar tua vidpunto >> pri "glikoso". >> >> La pagino pri glikos= o en la Portugalana Wikipedio ya konfirmas ke >> "glicose" esas la maxim uz= ata espelo: >> https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glicose >> >> Tamen, quale tu = lo savas, la Portugalana ne esas un ek la fontolingui. >> DEFIRS semblas pr= eferar "glukoso". >> >> Olim, ante ke Ido kreesis, la Franca uzis "glycose"= apus "glucose". =C3=89mile >> Littr=C3=A9 mem tre forte argumentis por ta = e mokis ca, ma ca divenis la maxim >> uzata vorto. "Glycose" esas nun tote = obsoleta. >> >> Simile, quon tu opinionas pri vorti tal quala "nevrologio" = en Ido? >> >> Ta vorto semblas suportesar da "nevroso", qua esas nur FIR. >= > >> Ni anke havas "neurono", do me ne komprenas pro quo ni havus "nevrolog= io" >> vice *neurologio ecepte pro ulaspeca pseudoprefixo *nevro-* koherant= a. >> Se to esus pro ulaspeca desfacileso por la Rusi, ni havus *nevrono, k= a ne? >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> 2017-01-05 8:51 G= MT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] >> : >> >>> >>> >>> Nu, Gilles-Philippe, me preferas "glikos= o" (anke en mea matrala linguo, >>> en qua uzesas la du formi "glicose" e "= glucose"), ma to esas nur mea >>> personala prefero, evidente. >>> >>> 2017= -01-05 13:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe MMorin gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [linguo= listo] : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Gon=C3=A7alo, nu..= . se internacioneso ne koheras, quon selektar inter la du? >>>> "glukoso" o= "glikoso"? >>>> >>>> 2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64= @gmail.com >>>> [linguolisto] : >>>> >>>>> >>>= >> >>>>> Gilles-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internacioneso :-) >>>>> >>= >>> 2017-01-05 2:37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>>>= > [linguolisto] : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> G= on=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. Ka to signifikas, ke tu preferas >>>>>> = kohero vice internacioneso? >>>>>> >>>>>> Nam de la vidpunto di kohero, "gl= ikoso" esas plu apta vorto >>>>>> (glikogeno, glikogenezo, e.c.). >>>>>> Ma= de la vidpunto di internacioneso, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS). >>>>>> = La Akademio di Esperanto adoptis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala >>>>>> Adju= nto, ma pose remplasigis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto. >>>>= >> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > --001a113f8fa44f9941054565049e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hola! Gon=C3=A7alo! Ne tacez pro la ignorinda (ed ignorend= a) opiniono di certena homi! Voluntez durar tua laboro, me pregas. Me lerni= s multe de tu e me deziras durar lernar de tu. Tu esas angulopetro por plu = bone komprenar nia linguo. Quale progresus Ido sen sua bona kompreno?
<= br>
Voluntez,
Gilles-Philippe

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 12:03 PM= , Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.c= om [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Me ne savas, Gilles-Philippe, ka "glicose&q= uot; esas plu ofte uzata kam "glucose" en la Portugalana, o ka ex= istas anke diferi inter la uzado di ta vorti en Portugal e Brazilia (l'= artikli Wikipediala en la Portugalana plu ofte skribesas da Braziliani kam = da Portugalani, nam iti esas plu multa kam ici...). Me savas nur ke, kande = me esis yuno ed unesmafoye audis la vorto en skolo, mea doceri uzis la form= o "glicose". Me suspektas ke lore la formo "glucose" ja= existis, ma me ne memoras audir o lektir ta formo lore. Me supozas ke nun,= en universitati e ciencala medii en Portugal e Brazilia, on preferas la fo= rmo "glucose", forsan pro influo stranjera (precipue Angla-lingua= ), ma to esas nura supozo, e me tote ne esas certa pri to. Me bone savas ke= la Portugalana ne apartenas al AFGHIR-klubo, e me mencionis ol ne por sust= enar "glikoso" en Ido, ma nur por expresar mea personala prefero = en mea matrala linguo (en qua, exemple, on dicas "glicog=C3=A9nio"= ; i.a.). Anke en Ido me preferas "glikoso" pro kohero e "fam= iliala integreso".

Pri "nevroso" la kozo esas plu kom= plikita e me havas teorio (o, plu modeste, explikiva hipotezo), ma me ankor= e mustas parlaborar e rafinar ol ante prizentar ol publike. Tamen me ne sav= as ka me disipos mea tempo ed energio por parlaborar ol, lektinte certena d= esagreabla insinui en recenta (e ne nur recenta) artikli, komenti e reakti.= .. =C2=A0

2017-01-05 14:07 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Ph= ilippe Morin gphmor= in@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&= gt;:
=C2=A0

Gon=C3=A7alo,
Se tu priza= s kohero neinternaciona, me do povas komprenar tua vidpunto pri "gliko= so".

La pagino pri glikoso en la Portugalana = Wikipedio ya konfirmas ke "glicose" esas la maxim uzata espelo:

Tamen, quale tu lo savas, la Portugalana ne esas un ek la fontolingui. D= EFIRS semblas preferar "glukoso".

Olim, = ante ke Ido kreesis, la Franca uzis "glycose" apus "glucose&= quot;. =C3=89mile Littr=C3=A9 mem tre forte argumentis por ta e mokis ca, m= a ca divenis la maxim uzata vorto. "Glycose" esas nun tote obsole= ta.

Simile, quon tu opinionas pri vorti tal quala = "nevrologio" en Ido?

Ta vorto semblas su= portesar da "nevroso", qua esas nur FIR.

Ni anke havas "neurono", do me ne komprenas pro quo ni havus &qu= ot;nevrologio" vice *neurologio ecepte pro ulaspeca pseudoprefixo n= evro-=C2=A0koheranta. Se to esus pro ulaspeca desfacileso por la Rusi, = ni havus *nevrono, ka ne?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-05 8:51 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Nu, Gilles-Philippe, me preferas "glikoso" (anke en mea matrala = linguo, en qua uzesas la du formi "glicose" e "glucose"= ), ma to esas nur mea personala prefero, evidente.
<= div>

2017-01-05 13= :03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= ;linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, nu... se internacio= neso ne koheras, quon selektar inter la du? "glukoso" o "gli= koso"?

= 2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Gilles-Philippe, me preferas kohe= ranta internacioneso :-)

2017-01-05 2:37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com = [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0 =

Gon=C3=A7alo, danko= pro la informo. Ka to signifikas, ke tu preferas kohero vice internaciones= o?

Nam de la vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esa= s plu apta vorto (glikogeno, glikogenezo, e.c.).
Ma de la vidpunt= o di internacioneso, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS).
La Akademio= di Esperanto adoptis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, ma = pose remplasigis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto.


=
=

=
=

<= /p>


=


=
=

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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114b072c6e47db0545650de3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bona, utila e tre aktuala. Forsan on povus uladie adoptar *eutanazi/ar tal= e quale on olim adoptis *sturm/ar? Danko pro komunikar vua vidpunto. Gille= s-Philippe On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [l= inguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Semblas ke en vort= -libri imprimita ante 2000 la vorto "euttanazio" esas nur > en ta da Pesch. = Ol semblas esar vorto bona ed utila. Yes, esus bona adoptar > verbo transit= iva "eutanaziar", de qua la substantivo esus derivebla > reguloze. > Robert= C. > > ----------- > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolis= to] - Sat, 31 Dec 2016 > 01:16:12 -0500: > Me trovis la sequanta radiko en = Wikivortaro: > eutanazi/o > > > Or en la Franca on anke trovas la verbo (tr= ansitiva) *euthanasier*. > En la Angla on trovas la verbo (transitiva)* to = euthanize*. > > > Kad on ne povas takaze uzar "eutanaziar"? > > > Se ne, qu= ale tradukar* euthanasier* e* to euthanize*? Ka per dicar > "mortigar (ulu = od ulo) per eutanazio"? > > > Yen exempli: > *Depos junio 2016, eutanazio e= n Kanada esas legala. Kelka mediki povas do > eutanaziar* certena kuracati = segun certena kondicioni.* > *Hiere, me eutanaziigis* mea kato malada.* > >= Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > P.S. Kad on povas dicar "mort= /ig/ig/ar"? Nu, lu semblas stranja en Ido, ma > ulkaze ta vorto esas utila.= > mortigigar =3D igar (ulu) mortigar (ulu od ulo) =3D igar (ulu) igar (ulu= od > ulo) mortar > *Here, me mortigigis mea kato malada da la veterinaro.*= > (Do la veterinaro* mortigis* mea kato.) > (Do mea kato* mortis*.) > (Adv= ere mea kato ne mortis.) > (Nam me ne havas kato.) > (Nek hundo.) > (Fortun= oze me havas kreveto.) > (E fishi.) > (Ed ucelo.) > (E mea genitori.) > (Ma= me ne proprietas li.) > (Kad on proprietas kato o ka la kato proprietas on= u?) > (Nu, bona nokto.) > > > > --001a114b072c6e47db0545650de3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bona, utila e tre aktuala.

Forsan on po= vus uladie adoptar *eutanazi/ar tale quale on olim adoptis *sturm/ar?

Danko pro komunikar vua vidpunto.
Gilles-Philip= pe

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@= yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0
=

Semblas ke en vort-libri imprimita ante 2000 la vorto "eutanaz= io" esas nur en ta da Pesch. Ol semblas esar vorto bona ed utila. Yes,= esus bona adoptar verbo transitiva "eutanaziar", de qua la subst= antivo esus derivebla reguloze.
Robert C.
=C2=A0
-----------
=C2= =A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sat, 31 Dec 2016 01:16:12 -05= 00:=C2=A0
Me trovis la sequanta radiko en Wik= ivortaro:
eutanazi/o


Or en la Franca on anke = trovas la verbo (transitiva)=C2=A0euthanasier.
En la Angla on= trovas la verbo (transitiva) to euthanize.


<= /div>
= Kad on ne povas takaze uzar "eutanaziar"?


<= /div>
= Se ne, quale tradukar euthanasier=C2=A0e to euthanize? Ka per= dicar "mortigar (ulu od ulo) per eutanazio"?


Yen exempli:
Depos junio 2016, eutanazio en Kanada esas legal= a. Kelka mediki povas do eutanaziar* certena kuracati segun certena kondici= oni.
Hiere, me eutanaziigis* mea kato malada.
<= br>
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


<= /span>
P.S. Kad on povas dicar "mort/ig/ig/ar"? Nu, lu semblas st= ranja en Ido, ma ulkaze ta vorto esas utila.
mortigigar =3D igar (ul= u) mortigar (ulu od ulo) =3D igar (ulu) igar (ulu od ulo) mortar
= Here, me mortigigis mea kato malada da la veterinaro.
(Do la vet= erinaro mortigis=C2=A0mea kato.)
(Do mea kato mortis.)=
(Advere mea kato ne mortis.)
(Nam me ne havas kato.)
(Nek= hundo.)
(Fortunoze me havas kreveto.)
(E fishi.)
(Ed = ucelo.)
(E mea genitori.)
(Ma me ne proprietas li.)
(K= ad on proprietas kato o ka la kato proprietas onu?)
(Nu, bona nokto.= )
=C2=A0

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Kande me analizis "expresar = su", me havis la sama konkluzo kam vua duesma: forsan "sua ideo" reprezente= sas da la tota "su". Me serchis la nomo di tala figuro. Lu semblas esar *s= inekdoko*. Tamen me ne esas linguisto e me ne alegas lo. Me kredis ke la t= ransitiveso di "kontredicar" esus anke tala figuro, ma me astonesis, kande = me vidis ke la dicionarii limitizas lua uzado a personi. Certe la *Komplet= a Gramatiko* ne esas tam "kompleta" kam lu lo asertas. Me ja konkluzis to k= ande me analizis vorti tal quala *bonvenar*, *bonodorar*, *cielblua* (di qu= a la radiko ciel/ esas, segun la *Complete Manual*, adverbo), *Angleparolan= to* (anke en la *Complete Manual* ma qua, segun Dyer, esas *Anglaparolanto*= ), e.c.. De Beaufront nultempe konsideris adverbi en sua reguli pri kompoza= do, ma li ya aparas en nia linguo plu ofte kam lu kredis. Sume, me kredas = ke la praktiko venis ante la reguli gramatikala. En Esperanto, Zamenhof ya = uzis amba "esprimi iun" e "esprimi sin". Semblas ke on ya trovas "kontra=C5= =ADdiri *ion*" en la dicionarii vice "kontra=C5=ADdiri *iun*" (ex. en la PI= V) ma mem Claude Piron uzis "kontra=C5=ADdiri sin mem" en sua famoza libro = *La Bona Lingvo*: http://eduinf.waw.pl/esp/lern/librejo/0018/0005.php Semb= las ke esas detali pri nia linguo, quin mem la Pioniri ne ankore deskovrabi= s. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-05 13:28 GMT-05:00 'Rober= t C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > >= Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido: > exprimer (t= r.) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar > su, parolar.= > > Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per= ica > exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas= o > metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on= darfas > ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzan= te homi). > > Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. = Couturat en > lia granda lexiko: > contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (so= i-meme) kontre-dicar su; > (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar. > > Tamen, se= mblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur > ulo dici= ta (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico > pruvas k= e, de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras. > > Icakaze= restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? > Ni hav= as du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on > demandas u= lo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" > ulu. > > = Kordiale, > Robert C. > > ----------- > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gm= ail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 29 Dec 2016 > 19:31:51 -0500: > Kara samideani= , > Me havas questiono pri la transitiveso di du verbi. > > > Unesme, la ve= rbo "expresar". > > > On povas expresar* ulo*, ma kad on povas expresar* ul= u*? > > > Me ofte lektas en moderna texti la expresuro "expresar su", qua c= erte > venas de plura naturala lingui (nome la Angla e la Franca). Ma kande= me > lektas la Kompleta Gramatiko, me trovas nur "expresar (sua) idei", > = "expresar la tempo", "expresar hezito", e.c., do nur "expresar [ulo]". > > = > Tamen, kande me serchis che Pesch, me trovis: > *Destruktar to quo esas j= usta, sana, pura en la maniero judikar, sentar, > expresar su;* (cf.* korup= tar*) > > > Ka to esas korekta? Kad on povas expresar* ulu* tale quale on e= xpresas* > ulo*? > > > Duesme, la verbo "kontredicar". > > > Kad on kontred= icas* ulu* od* ulo*? > > > Segun Dyer, "kontredicar" esas fakte "kontre-dic= -ar", do on komencale > analizez la verbo "dicar". > > > On dicas* ulo* ad*= ulu*. To esas quon Dyer dicas (cf.* dicar*). Pluse lu > adjuntas: > > > *D= icar sempre relatas ula objekto.* (cf.* dicar*) > > > Segun la* Kompleta Gr= amatiko* (sub "Kompozajo per prepozicioni"), on > trovas co: > > > *On aten= cez, ke la kompozado per prepozicioni ne chanjas la direta > komplemento di= l verbo (kande ica esas transitiva): en limpida aquo, on > travidas la ston= eti dil fundo; on ne travidas la aquo ipsa. Konseque > l'adjektivo travideb= la povas aplikesar nur a la stoneti, e ne a la aquo > ipsa; ol ne povas sig= nifikar diafana, ma nur (segun sua elementi)* > videbla tra*. Simile on sup= ervarsas aquo sur flori; quo esas > supervarsita? La aquo, e ne la flori. D= o on ne darfas dicar (quale Espo) : > vango supervarsita da lakrimi, ma jus= te : balnita, inundita da lakrimi.* > > > Do, logikale, se on dicas* ulo*, = on anke kontredicas* ulo*, ka ne? Do me > povas kontredicar* aserti* da ulu= , ma me ne povas kontredicar* la homo > asertinta*, nu, segun la supera par= agrafo. > > > Or me trovis la sequanta extraktaji en la Kompleta Gramatiko = ipsa: > *Esperanto esas tante min imitinda pri ca punto, ke dicinte* =C4=89= iuj tiuj > (kiuj)*, ol kontredicas su ipsa, dicante *tiuj kelkaj (kiuj)*.* = > *[L']ideo dil pluralo ne adjuntesas al ideo dil singularo: ol kontredicas= > lu absolute.* > > Ka to esas ecepto, nam linguo (Esperanto) e ideo esas = koncepti vice homi? > > > Me pose serchis che Pesch. Yen quon me trovis: > = > > *dementiar*: {tr}* 1.* Kontredicar (*ulu*) kom nedicinta lo exakta.* 2.= * > Kontredicar (*to* quon dicas ulu) kom ne-exakta. - FHI > > > Ho ve! Por= la sama vorto on parolas pri kontredicar* ulu* e kontredicar* > ulo da ulu= *. Quon selectar? > > > Me anke trovis "su-kontredici" che Pesch (cf.* iron= io*), ta qua semblas > indikar ke on kontredicas* ulu*. > > > *Ironie*, Pes= ch "su-kontredicas" en la defini di* dementiar*! > > > En Dyer on anke trov= as "su-kontre-dic-anta" e "inter-kontre-dic-anta". > > > Do, quale solvar l= a problemi? > > > Amikale, > Gilles-Philippe > > > > --001a114015e2130e0b054565b96e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert,
Me tre dankas vu pro la analiz= o.

Kande me analizis "expresar su", me havis = la sama konkluzo kam vua duesma: forsan "sua ideo" reprezentesas = da la tota "su".

Me serchis la nomo di tala fi= guro. Lu semblas esar sinekdoko. Tamen me ne esas linguisto e me ne = alegas lo.

Me kredis ke la transitiveso di "k= ontredicar" esus anke tala figuro, ma me astonesis, kande me vidis ke = la dicionarii limitizas lua uzado a personi.

Certe= la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0ne esas tam "kompleta" kam lu = lo asertas. Me ja konkluzis to kande me analizis vorti tal quala bonvena= r,=C2=A0bonodorar, cielblua=C2=A0(di qua la radiko ciel/ = esas, segun la Complete Manual, adverbo), Angleparolanto=C2= =A0(anke en la Complete Manual=C2=A0ma qua, segun Dyer, esas Angl= aparolanto), e.c.. De Beaufront nultempe konsideris adverbi en sua regu= li pri kompozado, ma li ya aparas en nia linguo plu ofte kam lu kredis.

Sume, me kredas ke la praktiko venis ante la reguli g= ramatikala. En Esperanto, Zamenhof ya uzis amba "esprimi iun" e &= quot;esprimi sin". Semblas ke on ya trovas "kontra=C5=ADdiri i= on" en la dicionarii vice "kontra=C5=ADdiri iun" = (ex. en la PIV) ma mem Claude Piron uzis "kontra=C5=ADdiri sin mem&quo= t; en sua famoza libro La Bona Lingvo:=C2=A0http://eduinf.waw.pl/esp/lern/libre= jo/0018/0005.php

Semblas ke esas detali pri ni= a linguo, quin mem la Pioniri ne ankore deskovrabis.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
 --001a114015e2130e0b054565b96e-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4695 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 12300 invoked by uid 102); 6 Jan 2017 04:49:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2017 04:49:26 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 16862 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2017 04:49:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2017 04:49:26 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: RdIjkaEWLDtjLevx5K1Q0O3nyosjJKYqtcI25JPhIsVcyd4P OO8JUySH5FCN82dKZtINS8YAADxmUFCvThkxoCskYjyfxBJLkS7LuZnPqvyS HhOcFv_wgY9w0EEgwKMfvkUwhe.eEYbEEhI0Vp4QYDa2LbthJlLWCieekGbn wtXxt7evMrdVQL7lDG9cbZYHLoqsSnwcIghq3EGCH7ARuwZxkv6am1Y9FQC3 KtrHRw39TUdaFhOZUIWNHFxpwxbjPAgI7YmvBk8rAuCz7G.IdfMGseffQCJP VlIQ_Rsr_QGlb9DE3MQhXqjnHUPVxkdD6nfiNEp7AV65fd8kzN3.tY7InR1s 60VqEtpefSgsPcG5zfUw7FelM16IlTK5FK.DV6w68Q6DjoGmZ.WrELisjeF_ B_x8yMhLE0xi8zL2xGNk1kuDVp.vU.FAaJleL_gIXzAfD_ibYhqhDg75SRgf T88do4MtlG_EEdXfmAa.94Ue_._6GN9DwTi8hKuzBMAFtFZOzelFdU9NjJpY thNzj3IFsqnGnNQumlblIBMspEzD3GWNevriwVIrUWlIiGt2aMgNnhel_aUr _P.cYVpw9bNoWPVNerdhbpZfV8VMH26XlLZ3V36VPivj3UO1anxSCDQ_xez. 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Lu semblas esar *sinekdoko*. Tamen me > ne esas linguisto e me ne = alegas lo. > > Me kredis ke la transitiveso di "kontredicar" esus anke tala= figuro, ma me > astonesis, kande me vidis ke la dicionarii limitizas lua u= zado a personi. > > Certe la *Kompleta Gramatiko* ne esas tam "kompleta" ka= m lu lo asertas. > Me ja konkluzis to kande me analizis vorti tal quala *bo= nvenar*, > *bonodorar*, *cielblua* (di qua la radiko ciel/ esas, segun la *= Complete > Manual*, adverbo), *Angleparolanto* (anke en la *Complete Manual= * ma qua, > segun Dyer, esas *Anglaparolanto*), e.c.. De Beaufront nultempe= > konsideris adverbi en sua reguli pri kompozado, ma li ya aparas en nia >= linguo plu ofte kam lu kredis. > > Sume, me kredas ke la praktiko venis an= te la reguli gramatikala. En > Esperanto, Zamenhof ya uzis amba "esprimi iu= n" e "esprimi sin". Semblas ke > on ya trovas "kontra=C5=ADdiri *ion*" en l= a dicionarii vice "kontra=C5=ADdiri *iun*" > (ex. en la PIV) ma mem Claude = Piron uzis "kontra=C5=ADdiri sin mem" en sua > famoza libro *La Bona Lingvo= *: http://eduinf.waw.pl/ > esp/lern/librejo/0018/0005.php > > Semblas ke es= as detali pri nia linguo, quin mem la Pioniri ne ankore > deskovrabis. > > = Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > 2017-01-05 13:28 GMT-05:00 'Robe= rt C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >= > >> >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido: >> e= xprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar >> s= u, parolar. >> >> Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agno= skata nur per >> ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresa= ta reprezentas o >> metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su =3D expresar sua p= ensi), o (3) on darfas >> ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tira= s omno, inkluzante homi). >> >> Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. = de Beaufront e L. Couturat en >> lia granda lexiko: >> contredire (tr.) kon= tre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; >> (mutuellement) inter-kontre= -dicar. >> >> Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kont= re-dicar nur >> ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur s= upozar ke ico >> pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altrama= niere eroras. >> >> Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "ko= ntre-dicas" altru? >> Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui di= feras per ke on >> demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula = verbo por "dicar" >> ulu. >> >> Kordiale, >> Robert C. >> >> ----------- >>= >> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 29 Dec >>= 2016 19:31:51 -0500: >> Kara samideani, >> Me havas questiono pri la trans= itiveso di du verbi. >> >> >> Unesme, la verbo "expresar". >> >> >> On pova= s expresar* ulo*, ma kad on povas expresar* ulu*? >> >> >> Me ofte lektas e= n moderna texti la expresuro "expresar su", qua certe >> venas de plura nat= urala lingui (nome la Angla e la Franca). Ma kande me >> lektas la Kompleta= Gramatiko, me trovas nur "expresar (sua) idei", >> "expresar la tempo", "e= xpresar hezito", e.c., do nur "expresar [ulo]". >> >> >> Tamen, kande me se= rchis che Pesch, me trovis: >> *Destruktar to quo esas justa, sana, pura en= la maniero judikar, sentar, >> expresar su;* (cf.* koruptar*) >> >> >> Ka = to esas korekta? Kad on povas expresar* ulu* tale quale on expresas* >> ulo= *? >> >> >> Duesme, la verbo "kontredicar". >> >> >> Kad on kontredicas* ul= u* od* ulo*? >> >> >> Segun Dyer, "kontredicar" esas fakte "kontre-dic-ar",= do on komencale >> analizez la verbo "dicar". >> >> >> On dicas* ulo* ad* = ulu*. To esas quon Dyer dicas (cf.* dicar*). Pluse lu >> adjuntas: >> >> >>= *Dicar sempre relatas ula objekto.* (cf.* dicar*) >> >> >> Segun la* Kompl= eta Gramatiko* (sub "Kompozajo per prepozicioni"), on >> trovas co: >> >> >= > *On atencez, ke la kompozado per prepozicioni ne chanjas la direta >> kom= plemento dil verbo (kande ica esas transitiva): en limpida aquo, on >> trav= idas la stoneti dil fundo; on ne travidas la aquo ipsa. Konseque >> l'adjek= tivo travidebla povas aplikesar nur a la stoneti, e ne a la aquo >> ipsa; o= l ne povas signifikar diafana, ma nur (segun sua elementi)* >> videbla tra*= . Simile on supervarsas aquo sur flori; quo esas >> supervarsita? La aquo, = e ne la flori. Do on ne darfas dicar (quale Espo) : >> vango supervarsita d= a lakrimi, ma juste : balnita, inundita da lakrimi.* >> >> >> Do, logikale,= se on dicas* ulo*, on anke kontredicas* ulo*, ka ne? Do me >> povas kontre= dicar* aserti* da ulu, ma me ne povas kontredicar* la homo >> asertinta*, n= u, segun la supera paragrafo. >> >> >> Or me trovis la sequanta extraktaji = en la Kompleta Gramatiko ipsa: >> *Esperanto esas tante min imitinda pri ca= punto, ke dicinte* =C4=89iuj tiuj >> (kiuj)*, ol kontredicas su ipsa, dica= nte *tiuj kelkaj (kiuj)*.* >> *[L']ideo dil pluralo ne adjuntesas al ideo d= il singularo: ol kontredicas >> lu absolute.* >> >> Ka to esas ecepto, nam = linguo (Esperanto) e ideo esas koncepti vice homi? >> >> >> Me pose serchis= che Pesch. Yen quon me trovis: >> >> >> *dementiar*: {tr}* 1.* Kontredicar= (*ulu*) kom nedicinta lo exakta.* 2.* >> Kontredicar (*to* quon dicas ulu)= kom ne-exakta. - FHI >> >> >> Ho ve! Por la sama vorto on parolas pri kont= redicar* ulu* e kontredicar* >> ulo da ulu*. Quon selectar? >> >> >> Me ank= e trovis "su-kontredici" che Pesch (cf.* ironio*), ta qua semblas >> indika= r ke on kontredicas* ulu*. >> >> >> *Ironie*, Pesch "su-kontredicas" en la = defini di* dementiar*! >> >> >> En Dyer on anke trovas "su-kontre-dic-anta"= e "inter-kontre-dic-anta". >> >> >> Do, quale solvar la problemi? >> >> >>= Amikale, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> >> >> > > --94eb2c1cb94afb4dde054565bd65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*nule konsideris

2017-01-05 23:48 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <g= phmorin@gmail.com>:
Kara Robert,
Me tre dankas vu pro la analizo.

Kande me analizis "expresar su", me havis la sama= konkluzo kam vua duesma: forsan "sua ideo" reprezentesas da la t= ota "su".

Me serchis la nomo di tala figuro. L= u semblas esar sinekdoko. Tamen me ne esas linguisto e me ne alegas = lo.

Me kredis ke la transitiveso di "kontredi= car" esus anke tala figuro, ma me astonesis, kande me vidis ke la dici= onarii limitizas lua uzado a personi.

Certe la = Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0ne esas tam "kompleta" kam lu lo aser= tas. Me ja konkluzis to kande me analizis vorti tal quala bonvenar,= =C2=A0bonodorar, cielblua=C2=A0(di qua la radiko ciel/ esas, = segun la Complete Manual, adverbo), Angleparolanto=C2=A0(anke= en la Complete Manual=C2=A0ma qua, segun Dyer, esas Anglaparolan= to), e.c.. De Beaufront nultempe konsideris adverbi en sua reguli pri k= ompozado, ma li ya aparas en nia linguo plu ofte kam lu kredis.
<= br>
Sume, me kredas ke la praktiko venis ante la reguli gramatika= la. En Esperanto, Zamenhof ya uzis amba "esprimi iun" e "esp= rimi sin". Semblas ke on ya trovas "kontra=C5=ADdiri ion&q= uot; en la dicionarii vice "kontra=C5=ADdiri iun" (ex. en = la PIV) ma mem Claude Piron uzis "kontra=C5=ADdiri sin mem" en su= a famoza libro La Bona Lingvo:=C2=A0http://eduinf.waw.pl/esp/lern/librejo/0018/0005.php

Semblas ke esa= s detali pri nia linguo, quin mem la Pioniri ne ankore deskovrabis.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-05 13:28 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [lin= guolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Gilles-Philippe,
=C2=A0
Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido:
exprimer (tr.) expresar (ul= o, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.
=
=C2=A0
Me supozas ke forsan = (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica exemplo) dil senco di= l vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o metafore esas lua pensi (= expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas ulakaze konsiderar per= sono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi).
=C2= =A0
Plu desfacila esas vua duesma= problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:
=
contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (= soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar.
=
=C2=A0
Tamen, semblas a me k= e vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita (me ne kont= re-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foy= o, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
=C2=A0
Icakaze restas problemo: quale dica= r korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni havas du simila vorti &= quot;demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on demandas ulo= ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" ulu= .
=C2=A0
Kordia= le,
Robert C.
=
=C2=A0
-----------
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] - Thu, 29 Dec 2016 19:31:51 -0500:=C2=A0
=
Kara s= amideani,
Me havas questiono pri la transitiveso di du verbi.=


Unesme, la verbo "expresar".


On povas expresar ulo, ma kad on povas expresar ulu?


Me ofte lektas en moderna texti la expresuro "expr= esar su", qua certe venas de plura naturala lingui (nome la Angla e la= Franca). Ma kande me lektas la Kompleta Gramatiko, me trovas nur "exp= resar (sua) idei", "expresar la tempo", "expresar hezit= o", e.c., do nur "expresar [ulo]".


<= /div>
= Tamen, kande me serchis che Pesch, me trovis:
Destruktar to quo e= sas justa, sana,=C2=A0pura en la maniero judikar, sentar, expresar su;=C2=A0(cf. koruptar)


Ka to esas korek= ta? Kad on povas expresar ulu=C2=A0tale quale on expresas ulo= ?


Duesme, la verbo "kontredicar".
<= br>
Kad on kontredicas ulu=C2=A0od ulo?

Segun Dyer, "kontredicar" esas fakte "kontre-di= c-ar", do on komencale analizez la verbo "dicar".

On dicas ulo=C2=A0ad ulu. To esas quon Dyer dica= s (cf. dicar). Pluse lu adjuntas:


Dicar se= mpre relatas ula objekto.=C2=A0(cf. dicar)


Segun la Kompleta Gramatiko (sub "Kompozajo per prepozicioni&= quot;), on trovas co:


On atencez, ke la kompozado= per prepozicioni ne chanjas la direta komplemento dil verbo (kande ica esa= s transitiva): en limpida aquo, on travidas la stoneti dil fundo; on ne tra= vidas la aquo ipsa. Konseque l'adjektivo travidebla povas aplikesar nur= a la stoneti, e ne a la aquo ipsa; ol ne povas signifikar diafana, ma nur = (segun sua elementi) videbla tra. Simile on supervarsas aquo sur flo= ri; quo esas supervarsita? La aquo, e ne la flori. Do on ne darfas dicar (q= uale Espo) : vango supervarsita da lakrimi, ma juste : balnita, inundita da= lakrimi.


Do, logikale, se on dicas ulo, = on anke kontredicas ulo, ka ne? Do me povas kontredicar aserti da ulu, ma me ne povas kontredicar la homo asertinta, nu, segun la= supera paragrafo.


Or me trovis la sequanta extrakta= ji en la Kompleta Gramatiko ipsa:
Esperanto esas tante min imitin= da pri ca punto, ke dicinte =C4=89iuj tiuj (kiuj), ol kontredicas= su ipsa, dicante=C2=A0tiuj kelkaj (kiuj).
[L'= ]ideo dil pluralo ne adjuntesas al ideo dil singularo: ol kontredicas lu= absolute.

Ka to esas ecepto, nam linguo = (Esperanto) e ideo esas koncepti vice homi?


Me pose = serchis che Pesch. Yen quon me trovis:


=
dem= entiar: {tr} 1. Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo exakta= . 2. Kontredicar (to quon dicas ulu) kom ne-exakta. - FHI


Ho ve! Por la sama vorto on parolas pri kontredic= ar ulu=C2=A0e kontredicar ulo da ulu. Quon selectar?
<= br>
Me anke trovis "su-kontredici" che Pesch (cf. i= ronio), ta qua semblas indikar ke on kontredicas ulu.

Ironie, Pesch "su-kontredicas" en la defini d= i dementiar!


En Dyer on anke trovas "su-= kontre-dic-anta" e "inter-kontre-dic-anta".=C2=A0

Do, quale solvar la problemi?


Amikale,<= /span>
Gilles-Philippe
= =C2=A0


=
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Lu semblas esar *sinekdoko*. Tamen me >>= ne esas linguisto e me ne alegas lo. >> >> Me kredis ke la transitiveso di= "kontredicar" esus anke tala figuro, ma >> me astonesis, kande me vidis ke= la dicionarii limitizas lua uzado a personi. >> >> Certe la *Kompleta Gram= atiko* ne esas tam "kompleta" kam lu lo asertas. >> Me ja konkluzis to kand= e me analizis vorti tal quala *bonvenar*, >> *bonodorar*, *cielblua* (di qu= a la radiko ciel/ esas, segun la *Complete >> Manual*, adverbo), *Angleparo= lanto* (anke en la *Complete Manual* ma >> qua, segun Dyer, esas *Anglaparo= lanto*), e.c.. De Beaufront nultempe >> konsideris adverbi en sua reguli pr= i kompozado, ma li ya aparas en nia >> linguo plu ofte kam lu kredis. >> >>= Sume, me kredas ke la praktiko venis ante la reguli gramatikala. En >> Esp= eranto, Zamenhof ya uzis amba "esprimi iun" e "esprimi sin". Semblas ke >> = on ya trovas "kontra=C5=ADdiri *ion*" en la dicionarii vice "kontra=C5=ADdi= ri *iun*" >> (ex. en la PIV) ma mem Claude Piron uzis "kontra=C5=ADdiri sin= mem" en sua >> famoza libro *La Bona Lingvo*: http://eduinf.waw.pl/e >> sp= /lern/librejo/0018/0005.php >> >> Semblas ke esas detali pri nia linguo, qu= in mem la Pioniri ne ankore >> deskovrabis. >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> G= illes-Philippe >> >> 2017-01-05 13:28 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.u= k [linguolisto] < >> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >>> >>> >>> Kara Gill= es-Philippe, >>> >>> Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido: >>> exprimer (tr.) = expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar >>> su, parolar. >= >> >>> Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur p= er >>> ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata repreze= ntas o >>> metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o = (3) on darfas >>> ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, = inkluzante homi). >>> >>> Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Bea= ufront e L. Couturat en >>> lia granda lexiko: >>> contredire (tr.) kontre-= dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; >>> (mutuellement) inter-kontre-di= car. >>> >>> Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontr= e-dicar >>> nur ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur s= upozar ke >>> ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altram= aniere eroras. >>> >>> Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu = "kontre-dicas" >>> altru? Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qu= i diferas per ke on >>> demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar = nula verbo por "dicar" >>> ulu. >>> >>> Kordiale, >>> Robert C. >>> >>> ---= -------- >>> >>> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - T= hu, 29 Dec >>> 2016 19:31:51 -0500: >>> Kara samideani, >>> Me havas questi= ono pri la transitiveso di du verbi. >>> >>> >>> Unesme, la verbo "expresar= ". >>> >>> >>> On povas expresar* ulo*, ma kad on povas expresar* ulu*? >>>= >>> >>> Me ofte lektas en moderna texti la expresuro "expresar su", qua ce= rte >>> venas de plura naturala lingui (nome la Angla e la Franca). Ma kand= e me >>> lektas la Kompleta Gramatiko, me trovas nur "expresar (sua) idei",= >>> "expresar la tempo", "expresar hezito", e.c., do nur "expresar [ulo]".= >>> >>> >>> Tamen, kande me serchis che Pesch, me trovis: >>> *Destruktar = to quo esas justa, sana, pura en la maniero judikar, sentar, >>> expresar s= u;* (cf.* koruptar*) >>> >>> >>> Ka to esas korekta? Kad on povas expresar*= ulu* tale quale on expresas* >>> ulo*? >>> >>> >>> Duesme, la verbo "kontr= edicar". >>> >>> >>> Kad on kontredicas* ulu* od* ulo*? >>> >>> >>> Segun D= yer, "kontredicar" esas fakte "kontre-dic-ar", do on komencale >>> analizez= la verbo "dicar". >>> >>> >>> On dicas* ulo* ad* ulu*. To esas quon Dyer d= icas (cf.* dicar*). Pluse >>> lu adjuntas: >>> >>> >>> *Dicar sempre relata= s ula objekto.* (cf.* dicar*) >>> >>> >>> Segun la* Kompleta Gramatiko* (su= b "Kompozajo per prepozicioni"), on >>> trovas co: >>> >>> >>> *On atencez,= ke la kompozado per prepozicioni ne chanjas la direta >>> komplemento dil = verbo (kande ica esas transitiva): en limpida aquo, on >>> travidas la ston= eti dil fundo; on ne travidas la aquo ipsa. Konseque >>> l'adjektivo travid= ebla povas aplikesar nur a la stoneti, e ne a la aquo >>> ipsa; ol ne povas= signifikar diafana, ma nur (segun sua elementi)* >>> videbla tra*. Simile = on supervarsas aquo sur flori; quo esas >>> supervarsita? La aquo, e ne la = flori. Do on ne darfas dicar (quale Espo) : >>> vango supervarsita da lakri= mi, ma juste : balnita, inundita da lakrimi.* >>> >>> >>> Do, logikale, se = on dicas* ulo*, on anke kontredicas* ulo*, ka ne? Do >>> me povas kontredic= ar* aserti* da ulu, ma me ne povas kontredicar* la >>> homo asertinta*, nu,= segun la supera paragrafo. >>> >>> >>> Or me trovis la sequanta extraktaji= en la Kompleta Gramatiko ipsa: >>> *Esperanto esas tante min imitinda pri = ca punto, ke dicinte* =C4=89iuj tiuj >>> (kiuj)*, ol kontredicas su ipsa, d= icante *tiuj kelkaj (kiuj)*.* >>> *[L']ideo dil pluralo ne adjuntesas al id= eo dil singularo: ol >>> kontredicas lu absolute.* >>> >>> Ka to esas ecept= o, nam linguo (Esperanto) e ideo esas koncepti vice homi? >>> >>> >>> Me po= se serchis che Pesch. Yen quon me trovis: >>> >>> >>> *dementiar*: {tr}* 1.= * Kontredicar (*ulu*) kom nedicinta lo exakta.* 2.* >>> Kontredicar (*to* q= uon dicas ulu) kom ne-exakta. - FHI >>> >>> >>> Ho ve! Por la sama vorto on= parolas pri kontredicar* ulu* e kontredicar* >>> ulo da ulu*. Quon selecta= r? >>> >>> >>> Me anke trovis "su-kontredici" che Pesch (cf.* ironio*), ta = qua semblas >>> indikar ke on kontredicas* ulu*. >>> >>> >>> *Ironie*, Pesc= h "su-kontredicas" en la defini di* dementiar*! >>> >>> >>> En Dyer on anke= trovas "su-kontre-dic-anta" e "inter-kontre-dic-anta". >>> >>> >>> Do, qua= le solvar la problemi? >>> >>> >>> Amikale, >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> >>> >>>= >>> >> >> > --f403045ec30e18cfef054565c23f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*esprimi ion

2017-01-05 23:49 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <= span dir=3D"ltr"><gphmorin@gmail.com>:
*nule konsideris
=

2017-01-05 23:48 = GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Kara Robert,
M= e tre dankas vu pro la analizo.

Kande me analizis "= ;expresar su", me havis la sama konkluzo kam vua duesma: forsan "= sua ideo" reprezentesas da la tota "su".

= Me serchis la nomo di tala figuro. Lu semblas esar sinekdoko. Tamen = me ne esas linguisto e me ne alegas lo.

Me kredis = ke la transitiveso di "kontredicar" esus anke tala figuro, ma me = astonesis, kande me vidis ke la dicionarii limitizas lua uzado a personi.

Certe la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0ne esas tam= "kompleta" kam lu lo asertas. Me ja konkluzis to kande me analiz= is vorti tal quala bonvenar,=C2=A0bonodorar, cielblua= =C2=A0(di qua la radiko ciel/ esas, segun la Complete Manual, adverb= o), Angleparolanto=C2=A0(anke en la Complete Manual=C2=A0ma q= ua, segun Dyer, esas Anglaparolanto), e.c.. De Beaufront nultempe ko= nsideris adverbi en sua reguli pri kompozado, ma li ya aparas en nia linguo= plu ofte kam lu kredis.

Sume, me kredas ke la pra= ktiko venis ante la reguli gramatikala. En Esperanto, Zamenhof ya uzis amba= "esprimi iun" e "esprimi sin". Semblas ke on ya trovas= "kontra=C5=ADdiri ion" en la dicionarii vice "kontra= =C5=ADdiri iun" (ex. en la PIV) ma mem Claude Piron uzis "= kontra=C5=ADdiri sin mem" en sua famoza libro La Bona Lingvo:= =C2=A0http://eduinf.waw.pl/esp/lern/librejo/0018/0005.php

Semblas ke esas detali pri nia linguo, quin mem la = Pioniri ne ankore deskovrabis.

Kun kordiala saluti= ,
Gilles-Philippe

=
2017-01-05 13:28 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' <= a href=3D"mailto:ido@avenue.me.uk" target=3D"_blank">ido@avenue.me.uk [= linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Gilles-Philippe,>
=C2=A0
Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido:
=
exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un= jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.
=C2=A0<= /div>
Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo p= ri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (= 2) la persono expresata reprezentas o metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su = =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas ulakaze konsiderar persono kom koz= o (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi).
=C2=A0
Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L.= de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:
contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kon= tre-dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar.
=C2=A0
Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas jus= ta, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua = aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem expert= i oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
=C2=A0
Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke = ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar= " e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on demandas ulo ma on pregas= ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" ulu.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0<= /div>
-----------
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto= ] - Thu, 29 Dec 2016 19:31:51 -0500:=C2=A0
Kara samideani,
Me havas questiono pri la transitiveso di du verbi.


Unesme, la verbo "expresar".


On povas = expresar ulo, ma kad on povas expresar ulu?


Me ofte lektas en moderna texti la expresuro "expresar su",= qua certe venas de plura naturala lingui (nome la Angla e la Franca). Ma k= ande me lektas la Kompleta Gramatiko, me trovas nur "expresar (sua) id= ei", "expresar la tempo", "expresar hezito", e.c.,= do nur "expresar [ulo]".


Tamen, kande me = serchis che Pesch, me trovis:
Destruktar to quo esas justa, sana,= =C2=A0pura en la maniero judikar, sentar, expresar su;=C2=A0(cf.= koruptar)


Ka to esas korekta? Kad on povas e= xpresar ulu=C2=A0tale quale on expresas ulo?


<= /span>
Duesme, la verbo "kontredicar".
Kad= on kontredicas ulu=C2=A0od ulo?


=
Segun= Dyer, "kontredicar" esas fakte "kontre-dic-ar", do on = komencale analizez la verbo "dicar".


=
On di= cas ulo=C2=A0ad ulu. To esas quon Dyer dicas (cf. dicar). Pluse lu adjuntas:
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">

Dicar sempre relatas ula o= bjekto.=C2=A0(cf. dicar)


Segun la Komp= leta Gramatiko (sub "Kompozajo per prepozicioni"), on trovas = co:


On atencez, ke la kompozado per prepozicioni = ne chanjas la direta komplemento dil verbo (kande ica esas transitiva): en = limpida aquo, on travidas la stoneti dil fundo; on ne travidas la aquo ipsa= . Konseque l'adjektivo travidebla povas aplikesar nur a la stoneti, e n= e a la aquo ipsa; ol ne povas signifikar diafana, ma nur (segun sua element= i) videbla tra. Simile on supervarsas aquo sur flori; quo esas super= varsita? La aquo, e ne la flori. Do on ne darfas dicar (quale Espo) : vango= supervarsita da lakrimi, ma juste : balnita, inundita da lakrimi.


Do, logikale, se on dicas ulo, on anke kontredic= as ulo, ka ne? Do me povas kontredicar aserti da ulu, ma me n= e povas kontredicar la homo asertinta, nu, segun la supera paragrafo= .


Or me trovis la sequanta extraktaji en la Kompleta= Gramatiko ipsa:
Esperanto esas tante min imitinda pri ca punto, = ke dicinte =C4=89iuj tiuj (kiuj), ol kontredicas su ipsa, dic= ante=C2=A0tiuj kelkaj (kiuj).
[L']ideo dil pluralo= ne adjuntesas al ideo dil singularo: ol kontredicas lu absolute.

Ka to esas ecepto, nam linguo (Esperanto) e ide= o esas koncepti vice homi?


Me pose serchis che Pesch= . Yen quon me trovis:


dementiar: {tr}<= b> 1. Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo exakta. 2. Kontr= edicar (to quon dicas ulu) kom ne-exakta. - FHI
<= div style=3D"background-color:white">
Ho ve! Por la sama vorto on parolas pri kontredicar ulu=C2= =A0e kontredicar ulo da ulu. Quon selectar?


<= /div>
= Me anke trovis "su-kontredici" che Pesch (cf. ironio), ta = qua semblas indikar ke on kontredicas ulu.


<= /div>
= Ironie, Pesch "su-kontredicas" en la defini di dementia= r!


<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">En Dyer on anke trovas "su-kontre-dic-an= ta" e "inter-kontre-dic-anta".=C2=A0


<= /div>
= Do, quale solvar la problemi?


Amikale,
=
Gilles= -Philippe
=C2=A0
=




--f403045ec30e18cfef054565c23f-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4697 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 26790 invoked by uid 102); 6 Jan 2017 05:10:23 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2017 05:10:23 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 18197 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2017 05:10:23 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2017 05:10:23 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.45 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: egNhUQkWLDsVQTQSfe9ZFu0Mk70EKYoD4rbKOHB0fDb0BYzl VcZ6we3Cl.R5Pr7L64lsBCU.P5snXxH3QppY1j8D3ez9nuNDkNdngQrrYsAr lIpzWE75CC6Svi2Hai0.m2n0YDLYEYDrgQGxfP_VqEXHPWCI470OwR_otcnO NUr05XHNvEcKHhwcBDoNLgEFr.z9DiBHEzccPpDlDYVg2ZjcdezRYtevuRGh hGSaZU2KMYeaB5tQ8GLtTnEOHtPyingrio72eShzooW.mZ_1uk2ardRxJH6f eM4Y2UKZquONct4Ce54I3FkZIFliG3k0f3RrP_ifgqINXeuuSTux36dL1QFC tUiLRyggP3M58_WFS5_8pLF91ChFyUdpHhX70_VHkCuDoZItKMsti1KhfIRu DWvDVWAQJQyrnE0FVjBK92bMnbcohF3cCOSCdy1ErmQgL_6KfNBGgTx6edVC OaL5uR_GoFIjLSqpFzRDPwBY6k4Xp7PuwiniF22a65goIkrfIXCk1NENUpaT Z6mZCvDHgP7Ly3F054PldQduhpf4o6oqXA8nlFjnOCl7a_qSlDCo5cWBeP55 D6STjg6vq6iArNVRsrmIxXLVKAE3BoCduAZWzYFEmiUmkYdtP9jsAp6ArDVY qSZ3bR4fMHMyBPYsxr_l.YMdDZWTQNSF0cwu8Zl8FAcvL7WUY9CmnZjVpyo8 toJOz3BvyWCuaR96afvDW6ECuvm42Tn8tHYP9W0pa.XiCqXU1z0JK0zsd_6L y0pEiCqz9kOTCfcvXlw65qxALsTjTj4iwfroY4XivHsxx_kQG7eHcL3dFui8 o5KsIHLuKNkcF0JDe1R6VB6N71QpqjJDtaTyYWgKUrkpGAy3l1lSiye8U1H_ itX1tWS6yyniNM2r4XxUXtRWlTTJ89MnuE9QwQ5kC2Y0l8ZVgjRgnUxMCqYu Hu56228.Ri3AJ3_wwt4T9t6tQ4MdTPdfXwRgrZrfToXmaQC79CZpeEnRMOP6 XGDPr1dENC0bvhWzRfuINkTqxKiGV4APpNz_3PQMayTRZ78EZDBHF81ypEQj LyR3QWcYhZz3tqruIdWHXNsJYtBrrdRmaR4HEwCNedW1Ctm.KuWtGEQgp0ZE R5h7E6_RnwuO6lYjuo5Rm_HTZBjxt9dPucvEzf4c800GjdEpEHudRBxReQQA oUpTxrJ1ymOI50NXTxPPCnNnF67w1RHN_JNEeRcxJ2LW3J26KFWUsarn_U1b Ocup.jl8LzfS0F0s8V177x7MghsHNIvGKfSdGWv9Arnhr9CoiHnJVug9UR0K AyEjk7z5zjNQ0f8nuQb3Fmk_o.5Trcp_6XLRy9mkP1mYXwOHrYm3b__LW8sY mFYskeq1r.4fYUrSTFhqIfIs3snox88Dh.zk Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f45.google.com) (209.85.215.45) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 05:10:23 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f45.google.com with SMTP id m78so26679155lfg.2 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 21:10:22 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=qzPMxzqBk7yjtI8pYNdOBvlIIH+UzLC0Nh19GZNjx6o=; b=U2e+2QdlbVjo8VqSJu+1mJeZPvzCu1FdoLQlfuIWXccLuK8wM/Czvp+xq2L/qO33vh Y+/yWa9YecObyOveggTdCjavKPyUUgHBbI8pNajHxKdxZSAyUa8mibmgprmZ+jXaYamI QnTkA75kgcnb6H5gSbgSldEQdi6sFCifPZvjrncNJDcDk+yFxSw+grVbli51+7NLo8W7 tIMQKin7PZwv+z0RsLmnUohVkaAnOGhTs5o9mqSMPJWkV2UsuxVwh51mPbPGPUzyKCTw uiOgwLVfZGTK7y+Z1+0zamRA2eJE8R1BPdiuRBXTvkavu5LRe/Y4PZAMXSHtNks6fYk0 lINQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIlcZSu6B7BMpbk8TL/gtzBMM29P82F/PHvAF5AmOEU2BTCKAvuUpLDJ6z5ATqAj4bc513kM8FP0fmGLg== X-Received: by 10.46.74.26 with SMTP id x26mr25317561lja.51.1483678881439; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 21:01:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 21:01:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171521838.457771@D9B5MN3J> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 00:01:20 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec30eb06719054565e82e Subject: Re: [linguo] Pri "expresar" e "kontredicar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec30eb06719054565e82e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Robert, Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, En la Franca, "d=C3=A9mentir" e "contredire= " ya havas la difero nuancoza quan vi deskriptis. Certe "kontredicar *ad* = ulu" logikale solvas la problemo. Danko pro la propozo, Gon=C3=A7alo! Ma k= ad esas reala problemo, o ka vice ni simple e naturale facas "sinekdoko", t= ale quale me lo skribis, t.e. interkambiar la senci di la toto e di la part= o? To esas nur hipotezo. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-05= 18:12 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Robert, > > Semblas ke vu esas justa:= la ago dementiar expresas ulo plusa ultre nura > kontredico: koncernesas y= a kontredico qua vizas pruvar mentio, od adminime > mentiemeso o mentiatra = aserto, dal kunparolanto. Konseque, por expresar > kontredico koncernanta n= e dicajo ma persono, on povas simple uzar ta verbo > netransitive per adjun= tita prepoziciono, exemple: "ne kontredicez a me!", > "pro quo tu kontredic= is a mea patro?", "per ta aserti vu kontredicas a vu > ipsa". To forsan sol= vas la problemo. > > Pri "nevroso" me parolos pose. > > Kordiale, > > Gon= =C3=A7alo > > > > 2017-01-05 21:08 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [= linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> Kara Gon=C3=A7alo= , >> >> Pri "dementiar", semblas ke ankorfoye Pesch eroras. La lexiko Franc= a-Ido >> dicas "dementiar (ulu, pri ulo), quale Dyer. On ne dementias ulo d= icita. >> Tamen refutar aserto od opiniono ne esas simple expresar altra op= iniono ma >> (segun Dyer) "kombatar aserto od opiniono per argumenti, qui n= uligas ol o >> qui pruvas la kontreajo". >> >> Dyer semblas indikar ke deme= ntiar esas (quale forsan la etimologio >> montras?) akuzo o preske akuzo pr= i mentio, od adminime plu forta e publika >> kam (eroroze) "kontre-dicar". = >> >> Pri "nevroso" e cetere, voluntez ignorar kritiki e skribez pri vua >>= hipotezo. >> >> Kordiale, >> Robert C. >> ----------- >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7al= o Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 >> 19:10:25 +000= 0: >> >> >> Kara Robert, >> >> >> Me supozas ke "dementiar" esas apta vorto= por expresar la senco >> "kontredicar ulu". Yen la unesma defino che Pesch= : "Kontredicar (ulu) kom >> nedicinta lo exakta". La duesma defino che Pesc= h ("kontredicar (to quon >> dicas ulu) kom neexakta" supozigas ke "dementia= r" esas apta por expresar >> anke la senco "kontredicar ulo". Tamen, segun = semblo, Dyer ne tote >> konkordas, nam il atribuas transitiveso nur al unue= sma senco ("dementiar >> ulu") e preferas rekursar a netransitiveso por exp= resar la duesma >> ("dementiar pri ulo"). To esas detalo negrava, segun me.= Irgakaze, on povas >> rekursar anke al verbo "refutar" por expresar la due= sma senco, ka ne? >> >> >> Kordiale, >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo >> >> >> >> >> >= > >> 2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] = < >> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> Segun = la granda lexiko Franca-Ido: >> exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus= ) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar >> su, parolar. >> >> Me supozas ke forsan (1)= la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per >> ica exemplo) dil senco di= l vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o >> metafore esas lua pens= i (expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas >> ulakaze konsider= ar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi). >> >> Plu desfac= ila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en >> lia grand= a lexiko: >> contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar s= u; >> (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar. >> >> Tamen, semblas a me ke vu es= as justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur >> ulo dicita (me ne kontre-d= icas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico >> pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo= , mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras. >> >> Icakaze restas problem= o: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? >> Ni havas du simila v= orti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on >> demandas ulo ma on preg= as ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" >> ulu. >> >> Kordiale, = >> Robert C. >> >> >> >> > > --f403045ec30eb06719054565e82e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert, Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
En la Franca, &q= uot;d=C3=A9mentir" e "contredire" ya havas la difero nuancoz= a=C2=A0quan vi deskriptis.

Certe "kontredicar ad= =C2=A0ulu" logikale solvas la problemo. Danko pro la propozo, Gon= =C3=A7alo!

Ma kad esas reala problemo, o ka vice n= i simple e naturale facas "sinekdoko", tale quale me lo skribis, = t.e. interkambiar la senci di la toto e di la parto?

To esas nur hipotezo.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-05 18:12 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Robert,

Semblas ke vu esas justa: la ago de= mentiar expresas ulo plusa ultre nura kontredico: koncernesas ya kontredico= qua vizas pruvar mentio, od adminime mentiemeso o mentiatra aserto, dal ku= nparolanto. Konseque, por expresar kontredico koncernanta ne dicajo ma pers= ono, on povas simple uzar ta verbo netransitive per adjuntita prepoziciono,= exemple: "ne kontredicez a me!", "pro quo tu kontredicis a = mea patro?", "per ta aserti vu kontredicas a vu ipsa". To fo= rsan solvas la problemo.

Pri "nevroso" me paro= los pose.

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo
<= /span>



2017-01-05 21:08= GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yaho= ogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
=C2=A0
Pri "dementiar", semblas ke= ankorfoye Pesch eroras. La lexiko Franca-Ido dicas "dementiar (ulu, p= ri ulo), quale Dyer. On ne dementias ulo dicita. Tamen refutar aserto od op= iniono ne esas simple expresar altra opiniono ma (segun Dyer) "kombata= r aserto od opiniono per argumenti, qui nuligas ol o qui pruvas la kontreaj= o".
=C2=A0
Dyer sem= blas indikar ke dementiar esas (quale forsan la etimologio montras?) akuzo = o preske akuzo pri mentio, od adminime plu forta e publika kam (eroroze) &q= uot;kontre-dicar".
= =C2=A0
Pri "nevroso" e cetere, voluntez ignorar kritiki e skribez= pri vua hipotezo.
=C2= =A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
-----------
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:10:25= +0000:=C2=A0


Kara Rober= t,


Me supozas ke "demen= tiar" esas apta vorto por expresar la senco "kontredicar ulu"= ;. Yen la unesma defino che Pesch: "Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo= exakta". La duesma defino che Pesch ("kontredicar (to quon dicas= ulu) kom neexakta" supozigas ke "dementiar" esas apta por e= xpresar anke la senco "kontredicar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dye= r ne tote konkordas, nam il atribuas transitiveso nur al unuesma senco (&qu= ot;dementiar ulu") e preferas rekursar a netransitiveso por expresar l= a duesma ("dementiar pri ulo"). To esas detalo negrava, segun me.= Irgakaze, on povas rekursar anke al verbo "refutar" por expresar= la duesma senco, ka ne?


Kor= diale,


Gon=C3=A7alo

<= /span>





2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert = C.' ido@avenue.me= .uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
Kara Gilles-Philippe,
=C2=A0
Segun la granda lexiko Fran= ca-Ido:
exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s= 9;-- : expresar su, parolar.
=C2=A0
Me supozas ke forsan (1) = la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica exemplo) dil senco dil vo= rto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o metafore esas lua pensi (expr= esar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas ulakaze konsiderar persono= kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi).
=C2=A0
=
Plu d= esfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia gra= nda lexiko:
contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-= dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar.
=C2=A0
Tamen, se= mblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita= (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, d= e foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
=C2=A0
Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dica= s" altru? Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar= " qui diferas per ke on demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas = esar nula verbo por "dicar" ulu.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0


=
=


--f403045ec30eb06719054565e82e-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4698 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 28233 invoked by uid 102); 6 Jan 2017 05:37:02 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m7.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2017 05:37:02 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 9581 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2017 05:37:01 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.121) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2017 05:37:01 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: mQHnbB8WLDs6.iy8Oj3wKsrWGSAUsaDEP8Nv20IEe2RbPCMV VIxYyyloJns7VmpvHMwmxaviQktBFd4zcCNcaReFokCie3rebY0L8nx9Grep LwfZx1KSKpgb8FBXQvO0BMsAWSivpfbGxv9ZOd2LXeinG1t3E4P25pfEHr4I EixnKTx5JkptVdxNl0aMCsGAALkNV8qu0LHt.JnT.u0f1ORBX2FL690DDMas 9dqVcdaUijaIg.LllgtFDJVBzIKKAxV8WFTSAikbfeTYHNTmJ458xKD6SjC9 zUM3iIjUUdU5_PBnQI_aFs400hScaYZzGOpILDd_ZMHblhxOJKt5GZM9dIDV 1PKziPSPOYRRpJCO3xdTCIQvV5FamCc6Z37TGeHmFYU5FoaItUANiPGL3j2u fbd19FmLWqfkX19dHb4iHpHpAB9vy4WZ.7.5QLFZ1ObOphCjQWtSLdntAgAd _E2oWujpYFeSAgZlqkjignYzMN8xuf0dgg8K6DKZxqG9mOj_dYvR3BF7S8Zo 8RRrFjVvRgI9cc_lmYNhE5i3K6nC0CxPxuku1MSCHc2HpKSZBqXzIMLN0ndt 5cbT_BBSVgjlEF5CfsIPZHxk3Jtk4CvvIf8PpNLviibJrf0RVdIhOeDKwGz_ wpeH66mIj6CqTCIxCmjyFeyStGbuIBWax6wkMgY44qxoBEL8LNgD98Wc7Jko fp0y8zGCtqZ.MsR26Z20Uh3bCYhPQB0ikyOEYXd7ay4EhB9Ql3lCYXFLxMHM cuVLA1vBJkoKZhm2Um7qkInTOAR4SxYjBQkrf8BEIX3KIZ5tgufQYTv_OjGD vUE9Yda0m7kK1pB3GrQFPMXCF5iTUfMu5I5SNWqh2MKXlnsdE0mBd2TJO6ej A4iK9IzqlXWP1N83Lc80HP5P3zUtKQtkjYbA8fHRP_Df9J1ftMDhGMjr9nfQ OESHNk6igm0ESvlppkk9U5fabR7t5tm_bOCkYza8HJ_CGEWU3mihr_4ERNwq J8Ly.mYxffNUiwpKiKMd_O71.8RdjxaRnnNUPyy52ohcphQg6wVLNaGOxxnp W8iioAO7Ngyobpop_YH4pto9zmKIqnzi71hfbntnBXC7NqnXDzhEXLgFgAdC d0onLtKpqmUewK7pucbh8r5SvI213zwNildI3qIHjOUJxsx2LLIRNO5iWtjW xuUYFDp9VB6MYWsHxGfa5Xcy4bOctAXVKWRCHGfHBOpKGPmKqcM9n1I1_Mi5 VR.riN.YoTiWUr01Ah.QtetAdA4DGrNJJIhlJpYyC5ZFLMF6EVXehr1ZvZVx qyMA Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f53.google.com) (209.85.215.53) by mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 05:37:01 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f53.google.com with SMTP id k86so48490935lfi.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 21:37:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=i+hCv1K0HWqFG50jUZxln6aICSW996oEBqaX3xRFITQ=; b=o41760Huel0Gu7uzf7USov+bUxTZ4zFZmz6PA3BO/nZWwJsBAgYig9YJXTmjYCjifO P89Ntwbm+Dgy+tpsbVGMMyhVkGUyWxB+k+de1ksdbPTJeyLsXnXAzoqHNyPTvu9JMG0b TGV39T64e+MhSpacP2ARHFIw91V9RwoR9xMsRa+hzX3iTH0v+S6hm/iymDVUsCiqYFNR INTU5LA3Bi815i/AKJM316sbd6/bbjCCHUIFFMSDTIxH7miNw4QlA1iqMBfaYY83fDUx jCldaQNws3hwXc73MRWFtqN48bUtQeS4q6NPPmIjy5+0E5Fk+4sWHZFN4T20jyyJrMdp ALVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKn4RLFmkO832aEPCmKIHT9Nilz3T4l67QXSgnroYByl9HwCefLYtbDInEIMEtEF4jW4JNu05J3c0ea7w== X-Received: by 10.46.9.215 with SMTP id 206mr24537346ljj.3.1483681020057; Thu, 05 Jan 2017 21:37:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2017 21:36:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 00:36:59 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114b18ea291c12054566680e Subject: "odorar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114b18ea291c12054566680e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara samideani, Ankorfoye me havas problemo. Me deziras tradukar la frazo = yena: "La ville pue le fumier." Od en la Angla: "The city stinks of manure.= " Me serchis en la Wikivortaro e trovis la yena pagino: https://io.wiktion= ary.org/wiki/puer La pagino sugestas la sequanta exemplo: puer le vin =3D = odorar la vino Nu, unesme me kredas ke "odorachar" esus plu bona kam "odor= ar", e duesme me lektis en ula dicionarii (Pesch, Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais, Dyer) = ke "odorar" esas strikte netransitiva. Do "odorar la vino" esus eroro. Ma = quo esus justa? De mea influeso da la Angla, me skribus "La urbo odorachas= de sterko." Ma ka to esas korekta? O ka, nam Dyer sugestas kompozaji tal = quala "mal-odorar", on uzez adverbo: "La urbo odorachas sterke."? Kun kord= iala saluti, Gilles-Philippe --001a114b18ea291c12054566680e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara samideani,
Ankorfoye me havas problemo.

Me deziras tradukar la frazo yena: "La ville pue le fu= mier."
Od en la Angla: "The city stinks of manure."
=

Me serchis en la Wikivortaro e trovis la yena pagino:= =C2=A0https://io.wiktionary= .org/wiki/puer

La pagino sugestas la sequanta = exemplo:
puer le vin =3D odorar la vino

Nu, une= sme me kredas ke "odorachar" esus plu bona kam "odorar"= , e duesme me lektis en ula dicionarii (Pesch, Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais, Dyer) ke = "odorar" esas strikte netransitiva.

Do &= quot;odorar la vino" esus eroro. Ma quo esus justa?

De mea influeso da la Angla, me skribus "La urbo odorachas de s= terko." Ma ka to esas korekta?

O ka, nam Dyer= sugestas kompozaji tal quala "mal-odorar", on uzez adverbo: &quo= t;La urbo odorachas sterke."?

Kun kordiala sa= luti,
Gilles-Philippe
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Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:40:07 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] dinosaurio Thread-Index: AQHSZfGml6C9NkEfAUm1NZsMWzCI46EnRceAgAACMwCAAHdOAIAARLIAgAAR+oCAARWJgIAAaq2AgABF2gCAAAUoyoAAS1iAgAEH0zw= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:40:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> , , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:048029F1D7D8B8C20710EBEBBAECEC1F70A2E4AE186893A202D27594D9A9F07D;UpperCasedChecksum:DC09247820C0768BA15EC86E2C32C3F7B08F441B9D362C4A20AA228B48ADEAC5;SizeAsReceived:8243;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [LyhpDDRpOIT0Ja6LMAw0FOOdFh1PkBah] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR01HT187;7:MPWXYl2RpNseRjIS2Bs2KwUGpzlc4IRx5ElWCMhrIrvNVypnS9wbCARUWjxwJ7kHWNmdsUPvW410HJx0REozfFbttfG0dRkv9oQ3ESOIoop+9yPAwrZ8nOJhjggnFES84BuKLG1Y0mQPMTh7yAqb67asJyxJrl9lI2FAij5oHdhWUxLf3yz/0p7Nj5yfbaSu+r5axjpsrkV/ESfk8vcfkAOt61V5Xihn+hQSGkT6aOIeBVcBPVQY1XouKDtYURJKrTQ/Ju9Nq6cmUd02+obUl4AzyQhLbJVOVR8Ro6KBL4kpzwsw+xrVeXc22gQ4o5n69aiqs6raTn6dZHG0dSkgAPEu11n9tgK8EBbbEjp6HMwZ6Vvzt750vER6HwNDJPBeBSwTWTw6FN+JoKGtDzTqbqJR+WRXEjZ09XjavPz5IGzprvPwV39yxC5Caw02qXCOrgecTgXqRZJ5lfaMMRhPNQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900003);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR01HT187;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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u=24528831; y=2YJPA7vVE877bExPgKsAB0464WmPlxdzfAI5YKNdHP4 X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB13973F1412BF5C1FA25CB0100A4630DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Partaka Yen la simpla listo, sen defini (quin me anke havas se vu dez= iras oli): achent.o arob.o autostop.o basketbal.o bebe.o blog.o chao datum= .o diskriminac.ar eskalator.o etni.o eur.o fax.ar festival.o flash.ar fonem= .o fonologi.o --_000_DB5PR03MB13973F1412BF5C1FA25CB0100A4630DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kara Partaka


Yen la simpla listo, sen defini (quin me anke havas se vu de= ziras oli):

achent.o
arob.o
autostop.o
basketbal.o
bebe.o
blog.o
chao
datum.o
diskriminac.ar
eskal= ator.o
etni.o
eur.o
fax.ar
fest= ival.o 
flash.ar
fonem.o
fonologi.o
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Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:45:27 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] "odorar" Thread-Index: AQHSZ97rp9bL2bqswEucoWb/nuWLjaErMqAj Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 09:45:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:12EEEF3960FFD57E63BA6A23D47810979F0091AA57AFFC430BE4A22934DD0326;UpperCasedChecksum:2E0190CC37FE90EA71FF87B38D5851E8C9EEFE52603F078AAAFC0E2ECF4DC509;SizeAsReceived:7609;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [3ZWbtjq3vc6N9ruc3Rh8XWZVouPRRGm5] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;AM5EUR03HT085;7:2hMyrCD+qYxdxFrdAa/yolahCo82CNjfjRpkABwns0MABiVO/5+2ppmzqUWznCuiYjapEwLZGeI+2GiK6SEikhLo/+I554cLIk33WD66YRDjWTjn6hbUke/bR9W1wb2o1p4Q5FD6VS/Crskd0JvjbWkQ47xpXtAFZ/p7dpE7PFqqCnRJfr5Hclg7cIVCUp5M/nacff/XSpdkG3YcgJZwO8cUx3mQif23Ocji759thSK/fOu7JuGZg1hr0GNtnjTLW4OWE3vsPQtutjIoE+2AeJOjLX5/JHSDbFzg6S85KusClhYABemv1xn901B9CldJwm8Fr6BiQprEnJuZEb9wxobhBUVjx8OIzrRRXpvE7o29WGVcWTlRYhF8z4ju73MKF08x0+PFwGj3BEMPZJ3dI/yebQxUe3oRzKZgRCNSQtk8JQNhohb7fwfzEzS4F7ZKKnGu32klAE+51bmWKNEFrA== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900003);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:AM5EUR03HT085;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: da7071a8-18dd-4422-c741-08d43618bec0 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031021);SRVR:AM5EUR03HT085; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:AM5EUR03HT085;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:AM5EUR03HT085; x-forefront-prvs: 01792087B6 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB1397400B0E8C863DD4225C2AA4630DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Jan 2017 09:45:27.2061 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR03HT085 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jan 2017 09:45:29.0724 (UTC) FILETIME=[9DB3FBC0:01D26801] Subject: Re: [linguo] "odorar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=q6SCzIXgevbUGvQ3jk55ru4f1f9CSUQDfTEJu-XOJwo X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB1397400B0E8C863DD4225C2AAA4630DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara amiko Me uzus en ica kazo malodorar: La urbo malodoras di dungo. --_000_DB5PR03MB1397400B0E8C863DD4225C2AAA4630DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kara amiko


Me uzus en ica kazo malodorar:

La urbo m= alodoras di dungo.

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Fri, 06 Jan 2017 03:04:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Fri, 6 Jan 2017 03:04:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201715211621.388462@D9B5MN3J> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:04:25 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c04127625b35405456afbfa Subject: Re: [linguo] eutanazi/ar? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=mGsWyt4edRlyeErzBqxVbIWl1UjtRb-nv3vSCVcpMzA5P700XnJ9Ig X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c04127625b35405456afbfa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe e Robert (od inverse), Meaopinione, ne esas infalible= necesa adoptar *eutanaziar kom radiko primare verbala. Mem lua adopteso ko= m radiko primare substantivala (*eutanazio) ne impedus lua direta (t.e. sen= sufixa) verbigo (*eunanaziar), nam ol intrinseke expresas ne kozo od ento m= a ago. Existas altra radiki adoptita kom primare substantivala (e prizentat= a kom tala en omna vorto-libri) qui tamen expresas intrinseke ago (o stando= ) e, konseque, darfas verbigesar direte, sen la kustumala sufixo -ag. Yen e= xemplo: "entrechato" (definita kom "salto dum qua la pedi intershokas rapid= e" che Pesch) sendubite expresas ago, do on darfas dicar tote korekte "entr= echatar" (=3D facar tala salto), quankam la koncernata radiko adoptesis kom= primare substantivala e prizentesas kom tala en omna vorto-libri. Me jus = enuncis ulo quon vi certe bone savas, ma forsan lo enuncita helpos altra sa= mideani min experta, quin tempope hezitigas problematra kazi di derivado, n= e sempre facile solvebla o mem intelektebla. Kordiale, Gon=C3=A7alo 20= 17-01-06 4:00 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolis= to] : > > > Bona, utila e tre aktuala. > > Fo= rsan on povus uladie adoptar *eutanazi/ar tale quale on olim adoptis > *stu= rm/ar? > > Danko pro komunikar vua vidpunto. > Gilles-Philippe > > On Thu, = Jan 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > >> >> >> Semblas ke en vort-libri imprimit= a ante 2000 la vorto "eutanazio" esas >> nur en ta da Pesch. Ol semblas esa= r vorto bona ed utila. Yes, esus bona >> adoptar verbo transitiva "eutanazi= ar", de qua la substantivo esus derivebla >> reguloze. >> Robert C. >> >> -= ---------- >> >> >> --94eb2c04127625b35405456afbfa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe e Robert (od inverse),

=
Meaopinione, ne esas infalible necesa adoptar *eutanaziar kom r= adiko primare verbala. Mem lua adopteso kom radiko primare substantivala (*= eutanazio) ne impedus lua direta (t.e. sensufixa) verbigo (*eunanaziar), na= m ol intrinseke expresas ne kozo od ento ma ago. Existas altra radiki adopt= ita kom primare substantivala (e prizentata kom tala en omna vorto-libri) q= ui tamen expresas intrinseke ago (o stando) e, konseque, darfas verbigesar = direte, sen la kustumala sufixo -ag. Yen exemplo: "entrechato" (d= efinita kom "salto dum qua la pedi intershokas rapide" che Pesch)= sendubite expresas ago, do on darfas dicar tote korekte "entrechatar&= quot; (=3D facar tala salto), quankam la koncernata radiko adoptesis = kom prim= are substantivala e prizentesas kom tala en omna vorto-libri.=

Me jus enuncis ulo quon vi certe bone savas, ma forsan lo enuncita = helpos altra samideani min experta, quin tempope hezitigas problematra kazi= di derivado, ne sempre facile solvebla o mem intelektebla.

<= /font>
Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo

=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0

2017-01-06 4:00 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0 =

Bona, utila e tre aktu= ala.

Forsan on povus uladie adoptar *eutanazi/ar tale qu= ale on olim adoptis *sturm/ar?

Danko pro komunikar v= ua vidpunto.
Gilles-Philippe

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, '= ;Robert C.' ido@a= venue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&g= t; wrote:
=C2=A0

Semblas ke en vort-libri imprimita ante 2= 000 la vorto "eutanazio" esas nur en ta da Pesch. Ol semblas esar= vorto bona ed utila. Yes, esus bona adoptar verbo transitiva "eutanaz= iar", de qua la substantivo esus derivebla reguloze.
Robert C.
=C2=A0
-----------
=C2=A0

=

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Kara Tiberio,

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Kara Gonçalo,
Me konsentas. Fakte, me pensis same pos skribar antee.
"Pro quo vu sempre kontredicas a me?" Nun me mustas memorar uzar la vorto tale!
Anke ula lexiki bezonos korektigo ...
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
 
Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 23:12:40 +0000: 
Kara Robert,

Semblas ke vu esas justa: la ago dementiar expresas ulo plusa ultre nura kontredico: koncernesas ya kontredico qua vizas pruvar mentio, od adminime mentiemeso o mentiatra aserto, dal kunparolanto. Konseque, por expresar kontredico koncernanta ne dicajo ma persono, on povas simple uzar ta verbo netransitive per adjuntita prepoziciono, exemple: "ne kontredicez a me!", "pro quo tu kontredicis a mea patro?", "per ta aserti vu kontredicas a vu ipsa". To forsan solvas la problemo.

Pri "nevroso" me parolos pose.

Kordiale,

Gonçalo


 
2017-01-05 21:08 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

 
Kara Gonçalo,
 
Pri "dementiar", semblas ke ankorfoye Pesch eroras. La lexiko Franca-Ido dicas "dementiar (ulu, pri ulo), quale Dyer. On ne dementias ulo dicita. Tamen refutar aserto od opiniono ne esas simple expresar altra opiniono ma (segun Dyer) "kombatar aserto od opiniono per argumenti, qui nuligas ol o qui pruvas la kontreajo".
 
Dyer semblas indikar ke dementiar esas (quale forsan la etimologio montras?) akuzo o preske akuzo pri mentio, od adminime plu forta e publika kam (eroroze) "kontre-dicar".
 
Pri "nevroso" e cetere, voluntez ignorar kritiki e skribez pri vua hipotezo.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
-----------
 
 
Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:10:25 +0000: 




Kara Robert,




Me supozas ke "dementiar" esas apta vorto por expresar la senco "kontredicar ulu". Yen la unesma defino che Pesch: "Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo exakta". La duesma defino che Pesch ("kontredicar (to quon dicas ulu) kom neexakta" supozigas ke "dementiar" esas apta por expresar anke la senco "kontredicar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dyer ne tote konkordas, nam il atribuas transitiveso nur al unuesma senco ("dementiar ulu") e preferas rekursar a netransitiveso por expresar la duesma ("dementiar pri ulo"). To esas detalo negrava, segun me. Irgakaze, on povas rekursar anke al verbo "refutar" por expresar la duesma senco, ka ne?




Kordiale,




Gonçalo












2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


 
Kara Gilles-Philippe,
 
Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido:
exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.
 
Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su = expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi).
 
Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:
contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar.
 
Tamen, semblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
 
Icakaze restas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni havas du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" ulu.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4709 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 24629 invoked by uid 102); 6 Jan 2017 21:26:47 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m10.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2017 21:26:47 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 26726 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2017 21:26:47 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2017 21:26:47 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: Tvn9x4kWLDtFHvmih7sATNEix7cslqG41ovuFsOKO5Wa1iSt 0agvdUypJnkfON.FGINI0FUeLt7YaCUyMIR1rcJ9Li7XNuXO2XQ5hBalwFEd BCsE8jIykget6Vo9f9.jH6LubWMhWo6OniDzJQrAOrwBTvGcO7nFc3SI8Rbd V8xSVtmneR_lbC8cWyLK_4hoazCkc.ghxiAW9.FI5xB5t955RjBfobcsiWAv KOMBuxfLdsIkn9Bc9vTBGII2bGQvu.FpBVvPjIh6rlq7_IBmNeLOmfT29Znd 4dHoJ49TtTaugYmSCSIwt2eH7143jCZ8PU7MUX0DyX.LZ5q.lM7r5vaP98No 97MknNFYYVw6IihyNx9QSi.d5YY3getMmod5e5kIuZmSBFhQQeQxpG1CYmaD TOHBxJ7wKOH_XnXQgPZnG24LDnGB49tjhew.6rD0nx.7bsNfYAdrsiqCv7u5 CNJaYh1KUpIebWwFPSCjOWFhyLhK9aNg8uWI6BH1v9T2qeL9MArmcN6DzES3 2WPfxgYnNe8BSfvRnx4rggEpf1pOK83IahVKGCi1vhTzUQeZ1wEHWftqefYo ZBkxwOrntIbN8UpgjH6P1_tnZttOPpj1jYrfmWu0q85UV6xkIs46LzXS1DP4 c8zXdbo7piz5mV63iQtC.l5AGJ.wlrT711f5pMjnRoL1d0fmpQTS3XIKToE_ 1t5zdwabtzXljhilel9KrMkRKAwDYEKZ8hY2ikycVmfkESghGD8LzvtHfpD. gPAajkCBuzFIyErzubbGAB3CuFrku.rOOHeA3oXGF562urwd_S17.D6SxfAC Y9yXi1m.VLqnaYaae_8ac4AloHbe9E_pubcTvp.VyNIiV8Wkxj9AjnP1Y8fr uxw6ibphAPrA.j2uOb0alU8DPgb9eWx6HZd9Y24ERwytJZDEO3kVpEldcu.x fzSvgb00UPZl136EnF9VjLVu0xn8UeSGiHcTBSQuQ_jD.85w.z.ITKtLGO8o 7WHV0vXmK6httGLOnck_vkd9NoIrzFX6HP2XrYQIPKF6x5VWU53DrMp4JIzi 3GnyFcUa0yFord9HpUd3BcnEa3Y6fN_CKFXCiuqHib_qVQQ51LpkbOtloy7j 66VuG1U8pb5dkQ.8WJyohEt87RKVwTjtgZgMO5hCxb3GIFfk Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout07.plus.net) (84.93.230.235) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 21:26:47 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([87.112.193.227]) by avasout07 with smtp id V9Sl1u0064uqJ7K019Smb7; Fri, 06 Jan 2017 21:26:46 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Y8KIilWN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=QNDxi8OzkrWEdc3Coe38Aw==:117 a=QNDxi8OzkrWEdc3Coe38Aw==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=qV0mfD4mAAAA:8 a=6mnm7gIjAAAA:8 a=kXYDuj-l9lcW-4UGj78A:9 a=gNqbUvQezfnSNaYf:21 a=WyIkGoFPrXrh2qb4:21 a=HMbXEqaY1sxu0IX1:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 a=mnVZ7iNJyew7AB3q5ROZ:22 a=KfCPT_WOMwHMG_Iid1qq:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 21:26:49 GMT Message-ID: <201716212649.055692@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [linguo] eutanazi/ar? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C."
Kara Gonçalo,
 
Me ya komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne esas klara pro quo ula forsan posibla vorti ne (mem nultempe?) mencionesas, e pro quo ula kap-vorti esas substantivi ma altri esas verbi.
 
Ni omna savas ke de verbo on darfas direte derivar substantivo, ma ne esas tam klara kande on darfas direte derivar verbo de substantivo. Exemple, kad de "mestiero" ("sorto di laboro manuala") on darfas derivar "mestierar"?
 
Dyer havas:
ludar - ludo
Ma:
sporto - sportar.
Anke, ma sen mencioni di verbi:
bezigo
biliardo
brelano
chaketo
pentatlo
pulo
ruleto
sharado
teniso (e ludar -o, ne tenisar!)
triktrako
wisto
La LNV (1988) havas:
futbalo.
Nun ni havas anke:
golfo.
 
Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular" e "wistar"?
 
Simile, Dyer havas:
dansar
polkar
valsar (e vals-igar).
Ma:
entrechato
farandolo
foxtroto
gavoto
kontradanso
mazurko
pavano
polonezo
sarabando
skotisho.
 
Existas "sturmar" e "tempestar"; kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed "uraganar"?
 
Semblas dezirinda ke vort-libri indikez quo esas apta ube koncernas direta verbigo.
 
Necerte, ma kordiale,
Robert C.
 
 
Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Fri, 6 Jan 2017 11:04:25 +0000: 
Kara Gilles-Philippe e Robert (od inverse),

Meaopinione, ne esas infalible necesa adoptar *eutanaziar kom radiko primare verbala. Mem lua adopteso kom radiko primare substantivala (*eutanazio) ne impedus lua direta (t.e. sensufixa) verbigo (*eunanaziar), nam ol intrinseke expresas ne kozo od ento ma ago. Existas altra radiki adoptita kom primare substantivala (e prizentata kom tala en omna vorto-libri) qui tamen expresas intrinseke ago (o stando) e, konseque, darfas verbigesar direte, sen la kustumala sufixo -ag. Yen exemplo: "entrechato" (definita kom "salto dum qua la pedi intershokas rapide" che Pesch) sendubite expresas ago, do on darfas dicar tote korekte "entrechatar" (= facar tala salto), quankam la koncernata radiko adoptesis kom primare substantivala e prizentesas kom tala en omna vorto-libri.

Me jus enuncis ulo quon vi certe bone savas, ma forsan lo enuncita helpos altra samideani min experta, quin tempope hezitigas problematra kazi di derivado, ne sempre facile solvebla o mem intelektebla.

Kordiale,

Gonçalo




   







2017-01-06 4:00 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


 
Bona, utila e tre aktuala.




Forsan on povus uladie adoptar *eutanazi/ar tale quale on olim adoptis *sturm/ar?







Danko pro komunikar vua vidpunto.
Gilles-Philippe




On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 4:16 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


 
Semblas ke en vort-libri imprimita ante 2000 la vorto "eutanazio" esas nur en ta da Pesch. Ol semblas esar vorto bona ed utila. Yes, esus bona adoptar verbo transitiva "eutanaziar", de qua la substantivo esus derivebla reguloze.
Robert C.
 
-----------
 
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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=qER5LRSkfL8OZnuBhC4h9l-cF8PQtZLq7oS7HLT4oQ1NAV477mPUtA X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a113aca009faa100545766ba5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Robert, En sua verko "Studyo pri la derivado en la linguo internacion= a" (1910), Couturat skribis i.a.: "La substantivo nemediate derivita de ve= rbo signifikas l'ago o stando expresata da la radiko. Konseque, ula verbo p= ovas derivar nemediate de substantivo nur se olca expresas ago o stando; ed= en ica kazo la verbo signifikas: facar ta ago, esar en ta stando." (p. 10)= En sua verko "Idala foliumi" (198) Andreas Juste, citinte la supera vorti= da Couturat, argumentas yene: "Segun ta principo ni povas do konsiderar e= xemple: "nostalgiar", "melankoliar" o "originar", e tale plus, kom formi to= te korekta." (p. 61) Teoriale, do, omno semblas tre facila: se substantivo= expresas ago o stando (do, nek objekto nek koncepto), on darfas direte (o = "nemediate", quale Couturat expresis lo) derivar verbo de olu. Tamen prakti= kale la kozo ne esas tante simpla. Exemple, en la supere mencionita verko, = Juste formacis la verbo "kauzar" direte de "kauzo" en yena frazo: "Certe on= povas komprenar ed explikar la fonetikala motivi, qui en antiqua epoko kau= zis duopla pronunco di ta litero [...]" (p. 67). Pro quo Juste facis tala = direta derivo? Ka lu judikis "kauzo" kom ago o stando? To esas desfacile in= telektebla. Me tote ne povas konceptar "kauzo" kom ago o stando... Forsan J= uste simple subisis influo dal Franca "causer"... Altra exemplo: en la ver= ko "Quar rakonti" da Guy de Maupassant, quan J. Houillon tradukis de la Fra= nca (1926), on lektas yena frazo: "Ol [la rivero] tamen esas bela, kande ol= cintilas ye la sun-levo" (p. 3). Omna vorto-libri indikas ke "cintil/" esa= s substantivala radiko, verbigenda nedirete ("cintilifar"). Pro quo Houillo= n (qua esis stilo-maestro, same kam Juste) facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu = judikis "cintilo" kom ago o stando? Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu simple su= bisis influo dal Franca ("scintiller"). "cintilo" ya tote ne esas ago o sta= ndo, ma objekto... Nu, se stilo-maestri eroroze derivas pro influo da cert= ena nacionala lingui, qui en ca o ta kazo derivas direte, forsan multi de n= i, en certena o mem multa okazioni, hezitas derivar direte pro la inversa = motivo, nome, pro ke nia nacionala lingui ordinare ne verbigas la korespond= anta substantivi... "futbalo", "wisto", "mazurko" edc, meaopinione, ne exp= resas objekti od abstrakta koncepti. Do on darfas direte verbigar oli: "fut= balar", "wistar", "mazurkar", mem se nula nacionala linguo verbigas oli. Ta= men ne omna substantivi en vua listo esas tala, segun me. Exemple, "sharado= ", segun me, expresas ne ago o stando, ma objekto. Anke "ruleto" klare expr= esas objekto. La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan ol habile solvesos dal hom= i qui desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli kom vana o neutila... Kordi= ale, Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-06 21:26 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.= me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,= > > Me ya komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne esas klara pro quo ula forsan pos= ibla > vorti ne (mem nultempe?) mencionesas, e pro quo ula kap-vorti esas >= substantivi ma altri esas verbi. > > Ni omna savas ke de verbo on darfas d= irete derivar substantivo, ma ne esas > tam klara kande on darfas direte de= rivar verbo de substantivo. Exemple, kad > de "mestiero" ("sorto di laboro = manuala") on darfas derivar "mestierar"? > > Dyer havas: > ludar - ludo > M= a: > sporto - sportar. > Anke, ma sen mencioni di verbi: > bezigo > biliard= o > brelano > chaketo > pentatlo > pulo > ruleto > sharado > teniso (e luda= r -o, ne tenisar!) > triktrako > wisto > La LNV (1988) havas: > futbalo. > = Nun ni havas anke: > golfo. > > Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular" e "wista= r"? > > Simile, Dyer havas: > dansar > polkar > valsar (e vals-igar). > Ma:= > entrechato > farandolo > foxtroto > gavoto > kontradanso > mazurko > pav= ano > polonezo > sarabando > skotisho. > > Existas "sturmar" e "tempestar";= kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed > "uraganar"? > > Semblas dezirinda ke vor= t-libri indikez quo esas apta ube koncernas direta > verbigo. > > Necerte, = ma kordiale, > Robert C. > > --001a113aca009faa100545766ba5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert= ,

En sua verko "Studyo pri la derivado en la linguo= internaciona" (1910), Couturat skribis i.a.:

"= ;La substantivo nemediate derivita de verbo signifikas l'ago o stando e= xpresata da la radiko. Konseque, ula verbo povas derivar nemediate de subst= antivo nur se olca expresas ago o stando; ed en ica kazo la verbo signifika= s: facar ta ago, esar en ta stando." (p. 10)

En sua= verko "Idala foliumi" (198) Andreas Juste, citinte la supera vor= ti da Couturat, argumentas yene:

"Segun ta principo= ni povas do konsiderar exemple: "nostalgiar", "melankoliar&= quot; o "originar", e tale plus, kom formi tote korekta." (p= . 61)

Teoriale, do, omno semblas tre facila: se substant= ivo expresas ago o stando (do, nek objekto nek koncepto), on darfas direte = (o "nemediate", quale Couturat expresis lo) derivar verbo de olu.= Tamen praktikale la kozo ne esas tante simpla. Exemple, en la supere menci= onita verko, Juste formacis la verbo "kauzar" direte de "kau= zo" en yena frazo: "Certe on povas komprenar ed explikar la fonet= ikala motivi, qui en antiqua epoko kauzis duopla pronunco di ta litero [...= ]"=C2=A0 (p. 67). Pro quo Juste facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu judiki= s "kauzo" kom ago o stando? To esas desfacile intelektebla. Me to= te ne povas konceptar "kauzo" kom ago o stando... Forsan Juste si= mple subisis influo dal Franca "causer"...

<= /div>Alt= ra exemplo: en la verko "Quar rakonti" da Guy de Maupassant, quan= J. Houillon tradukis de la Franca (1926), on lektas yena frazo: "Ol [= la rivero] tamen esas bela, kande ol cintilas ye la sun-levo" (p. 3). = Omna vorto-libri indikas ke "cintil/" esas substantivala radiko, = verbigenda nedirete ("cintilifar"). Pro quo Houillon (qua esis st= ilo-maestro, same kam Juste) facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu judikis "= cintilo" kom ago o stando? Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu simple subisi= s influo dal Franca ("scintiller"). "cintilo" ya tote n= e esas ago o stando, ma objekto...

Nu, se stilo-maestri = eroroze derivas pro influo da certena nacionala lingui, qui en ca o ta kazo= derivas direte, forsan multi de ni,=C2=A0 en certena o mem multa okazioni, hezitas derivar direte pro la inversa motivo, nome, pro ke nia= nacionala lingui ordinare ne verbigas la korespondanta substantivi...
<= br>
"futbalo", "wisto", "mazurko" = edc, meaopinione, ne expresas objekti od abstrakta koncepti. Do on darfas d= irete verbigar oli: "futbalar", "wistar", "mazurka= r", mem se nula nacionala linguo verbigas oli. Tamen ne omna substanti= vi en vua listo esas tala, segun me. Exemple, "sharado", segun me= , expresas ne ago o stando, ma objekto. Anke "ruleto" klare expre= sas objekto.

La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan ol habile= solvesos dal homi qui desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli kom vana o = neutila...

Kordiale,,

Gon=C3=A7alo

=C2=A0 =
=




2017-01-06 21:26 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
=
= =C2=A0
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,<= /span>
=C2=A0
Me ya komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne esas klara pro quo= ula forsan posibla vorti ne (mem nultempe?) mencionesas, e pro quo ula kap= -vorti esas substantivi ma altri esas veerbi.
=C2=A0
Ni omna sava= s ke de verbo on darfas direte derivar substantivo, ma ne esas tam klara ka= nde on darfas direte derivar verbo de substantivo. Exemple, kad de "me= stiero" ("sorto di laboro manuala") on darfas derivar "= mestierar"?
=C2=A0
Dyer havas:
ludar - ludo
Ma:<= /span>
sporto - sportar.
<= div class=3D"m_4604438206811536784body" style=3D"background-color:white">Anke, ma sen mencioni di verbi:
<= div class=3D"m_4604438206811536784body" style=3D"background-color:white">bezigo
biliardo
brelano
chaketo
pentatlo
pulo
ruleto
sharado
teniso (e ludar = -o, ne tenisar!)
triktrako
wisto
La LNV (1988) havas:<
futbalo.
Nun ni havas anke:
golfo.
=C2=A0
Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular= " e "wistar"?
=C2= =A0
Simile, Dyer havas:
dansar
polkar
valsar (e vals-= igar).
Ma:
entrechato
farandolo
foxtroto
=
= gavoto
kontradanso
mazurko=
pavano
polonezo
sarabando
skotisho.
=C2=A0
Existas "sturmar" e "tempest= ar"; kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed "uraganar"?
=C2=A0
Semblas dezirinda ke = vort-libri indikez quo esas apta ube koncernas direta verbigo.
=
= =C2=A0
Necerte, ma kordiale,
Robe= rt C.


=
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Yen tre bona novajo!

2017-01-06 11:38 GMT+00:00 tiberiorevas@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Me dankas! Balde me publi= kigos ulo nova en mea blogo linguala, pro ke recente me facis importanta de= skovro en la gramatiko di Ido.
Kordiale,
Tiberio



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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [linguo] eutanazi/ar? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C."
Kara Gonçalo,
 
Me ofras nur du mikra komenti. Me miskomprenis "sharado". Pesch dicas ke ol esas (sorto di) enigmato. Dyer tradukas ol kom "charade", e me pensis pri "charades" qua esas ludo. Segun Dyer e Pesch, ruleto esas ludo.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sat, 7 Jan 2017 00:43:16 +0000: 
Kara Robert,

En sua verko "Studyo pri la derivado en la linguo internaciona" (1910), Couturat skribis i.a.:

"La substantivo nemediate derivita de verbo signifikas l'ago o stando expresata da la radiko. Konseque, ula verbo povas derivar nemediate de substantivo nur se olca expresas ago o stando; ed en ica kazo la verbo signifikas: facar ta ago, esar en ta stando." (p. 10)

En sua verko "Idala foliumi" (198) Andreas Juste, citinte la supera vorti da Couturat, argumentas yene:

"Segun ta principo ni povas do konsiderar exemple: "nostalgiar", "melankoliar" o "originar", e tale plus, kom formi tote korekta." (p. 61)

Teoriale, do, omno semblas tre facila: se substantivo expresas ago o stando (do, nek objekto nek koncepto), on darfas direte (o "nemediate", quale Couturat expresis lo) derivar verbo de olu. Tamen praktikale la kozo ne esas tante simpla. Exemple, en la supere mencionita verko, Juste formacis la verbo "kauzar" direte de "kauzo" en yena frazo: "Certe on povas komprenar ed explikar la fonetikala motivi, qui en antiqua epoko kauzis duopla pronunco di ta litero [...]"  (p. 67). Pro quo Juste facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu judikis "kauzo" kom ago o stando? To esas desfacile intelektebla. Me tote ne povas konceptar "kauzo" kom ago o stando... Forsan Juste simple subisis influo dal Franca "causer"...

Altra exemplo: en la verko "Quar rakonti" da Guy de Maupassant, quan J. Houillon tradukis de la Franca (1926), on lektas yena frazo: "Ol [la rivero] tamen esas bela, kande ol cintilas ye la sun-levo" (p. 3). Omna vorto-libri indikas ke "cintil/" esas substantivala radiko, verbigenda nedirete ("cintilifar"). Pro quo Houillon (qua esis stilo-maestro, same kam Juste) facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu judikis "cintilo" kom ago o stando? Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu simple subisis influo dal Franca ("scintiller"). "cintilo" ya tote ne esas ago o stando, ma objekto...

Nu, se stilo-maestri eroroze derivas pro influo da certena nacionala lingui, qui en ca o ta kazo derivas direte, forsan multi de ni,  en certena o mem multa okazioni, hezitas derivar direte pro la inversa motivo, nome, pro ke nia nacionala lingui ordinare ne verbigas la korespondanta substantivi...

"futbalo", "wisto", "mazurko" edc, meaopinione, ne expresas objekti od abstrakta koncepti. Do on darfas direte verbigar oli: "futbalar", "wistar", "mazurkar", mem se nula nacionala linguo verbigas oli. Tamen ne omna substantivi en vua listo esas tala, segun me. Exemple, "sharado", segun me, expresas ne ago o stando, ma objekto. Anke "ruleto" klare expresas objekto.

La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan ol habile solvesos dal homi qui desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli kom vana o neutila...

Kordiale,

Gonçalo


 








2017-01-06 21:26 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
 
Kara Gonçalo,
 
Me ya komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne esas klara pro quo ula forsan posibla vorti ne (mem nultempe?) mencionesas, e pro quo ula kap-vorti esas substantivi ma altri esas verbi.
 
Ni omna savas ke de verbo on darfas direte derivar substantivo, ma ne esas tam klara kande on darfas direte derivar verbo de substantivo. Exemple, kad de "mestiero" ("sorto di laboro manuala") on darfas derivar "mestierar"?
 
Dyer havas:
ludar - ludo
Ma:
sporto - sportar.
Anke, ma sen mencioni di verbi:
bezigo
biliardo
brelano
chaketo
pentatlo
pulo
ruleto
sharado
teniso (e ludar -o, ne tenisar!)
triktrako
wisto
La LNV (1988) havas:
futbalo.
Nun ni havas anke:
golfo.
 
Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular" e "wistar"?
 
Simile, Dyer havas:
dansar
polkar
valsar (e vals-igar).
Ma:
entrechato
farandolo
foxtroto
gavoto
kontradanso
mazurko
pavano
polonezo
sarabando
skotisho.
 
Existas "sturmar" e "tempestar" kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed "uraganar"?
 
Semblas dezirinda ke vort-libri indikez quo esas apta ube koncernas direta verbigo.
 
Necerte, ma kordiale,
Robert C.

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Tu esas justa, *moelo ne esas sat internaciona= . "*medulo spinal" importas, nam tale tu jus chanjis komplete la signifiko = di la vorto "medulo", ka ne? Tua sugesto bezonas do grava konsidero. To ne= signifikas ke me ne konkordas kun tu. Yen, segun tua bona ideo, quale to c= hanjus la vorti: medulo =3D *medulo ostal myelo =3D *medulo spinal Segun = Oxford, yen quale ni definus la nova *medulo: **medul/o:* interna regiono d= i organo o tisuo, specale kande lu esas dicernebla de la extera regiono o "= kortico" (tale quale en reno, glando surrena, o pilo) Do tale on obtenus *= medulo ostal e *medulo spinal. Ta defino remplasus la senco propra di Pesc= h e di la Lexiko Ido-Franca, qui sequis la senco Franca e lua figurosenci. = Quala tu judikas to? Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-07 13:08 GMT-05:00 qualevis= tandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Ca-kaz= e, semblas a me, ke "moelo" (vice "myelo") esas ne sat internaciona, > do m= e preferas ulo qual "medulo spinal" mem se duvorta e kelke longa; to ya > n= e multe importas, nam ol esas ne omna-dia expresuro, ma tote klara. Ni > ha= vus: > "medulo spinal", "mielito" e "mielino" (ultre "mielo" e "mielato" > = altra-latere). > > (Partaka) > > > --f403045ea0aa3d61e505458642d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Partaka,
Danko la bona idei! Tu esas justa, *moelo ne = esas sat internaciona.
"*medulo spinal" importas, nam t= ale tu jus chanjis komplete la signifiko di la vorto "medulo", ka= ne?
Tua sugesto bezonas do grava konsidero.

To ne signifikas ke me ne konkordas kun tu. Yen, segun tua bona ideo, qu= ale to chanjus la vorti:

medulo =3D *medulo ostal<= /div>
myelo =3D *medulo spinal

Segun Oxford, y= en quale ni definus la nova *medulo:
*medul/o:=C2=A0intern= a regiono di organo o tisuo, specale kande lu esas dicernebla de la extera = regiono o "kortico" (tale quale en reno, glando surrena, o pilo)<= /div>

Do tale on obtenus *medulo ostal e *medulo s= pinal.

Ta defino remplasus la senco propra di Pesc= h e di la Lexiko Ido-Franca, qui sequis la senco Franca e lua figurosenci.<= /div>

Quala tu judikas to?

Gill= es-Philippe

2017-01-07 13:08 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com>:
=
=C2= =A0

Ca-kaze, sembla= s a me, ke "moelo" (vice "myelo") esas ne sat internaci= ona, do me preferas ulo qual "medulo spinal" mem se duvorta e kel= ke longa; to ya ne multe importas, nam ol esas ne omna-dia expresuro, ma to= te klara. Ni havus:=C2=A0

"medulo spinal", "mieliito" e "mie= lino" (ultre "mielo" e "mielato" altra-latere).=C2= =A0
=C2= =A0(Partaka)

=

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Sat, 07 Jan 2017 13:15:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 13:15:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201716212649.055692@D9B5MN3J> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:15:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142c13006d803054587a3c6 Subject: Re: [linguo] eutanazi/ar? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1142c13006d803054587a3c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, Danko pro la tre informanta respondo. Ne timez, tua labo= ro ne esas vana. Tu esas justa, on ya darfas derivar verbo de substantivo = qua reprezentas ago o stando. Fakte, yen quon la *Kompleta Gramatiko* skrib= as pri to: "1e Substantivo nemediate formacita de verbo signifikas nature = la ago o la stando expresata da ta verbo. Ex. : laboro =3D *ago laborar*; j= aco =3D *ago jacar*; langoro =3D *stando langorar*; emoco =3D *stando emoca= r*, *sento emocar* . "Konsequo. =E2=80=94 Inverse on darfas formacar verbo= nemediate de substantivo, nur se ta substantivo expresas ago o stando. Exe= mple, de *paco* on darfas formacar la verbo pacar =3D *esar en paco*, pro k= e *paco* esas stando; ma de *domo* on ne darfas formacar la verbo domar, qu= a havus nula senco, *domo* expresante nek ago, nek stando (1)." (*Kompleta= Gramatiko*, Louis de Beaufront, sub *Nemediata derivado*.) Quo surprizas = me esas ke on adoptis "sturmar" pos adoptir "sturmo" segun la Lexiko di Nov= a Vorti . Anke, dicionarii tala quala = ta di Dyer preferis pozar "pacar" ante "paco", tale quale se "paco" derivus= de "pacar" vice lo inversa. (Ma che Dyer, "jorno" e "jornar" esas en la ju= sta ordino.) Ka tala chanjo esis necesa se la reguli igas lu neutila? Etim= ologiale, "futbalo" ya esus objekto, t.e. balono. Tamen, on decidis adoptar= la vorto nur por la ludo e to esas korekta. "futbalo" povas divenar "futba= lar" tote quale "ludo" divenas "ludar", "muziko" divenas "muzikar", e.c. S= ume, "nostalgiar", "eutanaziar", e.c., esas korekta nam li esas stando ed a= go. "origino" esas objekto od abstrakta koncepto, ka ne? Pesch dicas ke lu= esas "departopunto". Or on ne povas "puntar". Per ta exemplo me judikus, = ke Andreas Juste eroris pro sua "Franca mento". "originer" ya esas Franca v= erbo, tala quala "causer", "scintiller", e.c. Ma se on konsideras "origino= " kom sinonimo di "komenco", to chanjas omno. "origino" esas punto dum ke "= komenco" esas ago. Tamen itere me ne esas certa. "finar" esas ago (segun D= yer), ma "fino" segun praktiko povas anke esar punto quale "origino". "fin= ar" esas antonimo di "komencar", ka ne? On *komencas* e *finas* laboro. "f= ino" esas antonimo di "origino", ka ne? On komencas savar plu multe pri la = *origino* di la homaro, ma on ankore savas mem min multe pri lua *fino*. D= o ka "komencar" e "origino" singla havas nur un senco, dum ke "fino" havas = du senci? Yen ni eniras griza parto di nia linguo! To interesas me. "La t= emo ne esas facila, ma forsan ol habile solvesos dal homi qui desprizas lin= guala diskuti o judikas oli kom vana o neutila..." Certe! Certe! Nu, certe.= .. ne. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-06 19:43 GMT-05:00 Go= n=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>: > > > Kara Robert, > > En sua verko "Studyo pri la derivado en la l= inguo internaciona" (1910), > Couturat skribis i.a.: > > "La substantivo ne= mediate derivita de verbo signifikas l'ago o stando > expresata da la radik= o. Konseque, ula verbo povas derivar nemediate de > substantivo nur se olca= expresas ago o stando; ed en ica kazo la verbo > signifikas: facar ta ago,= esar en ta stando." (p. 10) > > En sua verko "Idala foliumi" (198) Andreas= Juste, citinte la supera vorti > da Couturat, argumentas yene: > > "Segun = ta principo ni povas do konsiderar exemple: "nostalgiar", > "melankoliar" o= "originar", e tale plus, kom formi tote korekta." (p. 61) > > Teoriale, do= , omno semblas tre facila: se substantivo expresas ago o > stando (do, nek = objekto nek koncepto), on darfas direte (o "nemediate", > quale Couturat ex= presis lo) derivar verbo de olu. Tamen praktikale la kozo > ne esas tante s= impla. Exemple, en la supere mencionita verko, Juste > formacis la verbo "k= auzar" direte de "kauzo" en yena frazo: "Certe on povas > komprenar ed expl= ikar la fonetikala motivi, qui en antiqua epoko kauzis > duopla pronunco di= ta litero [...]" (p. 67). Pro quo Juste facis tala > direta derivo? Ka lu= judikis "kauzo" kom ago o stando? To esas desfacile > intelektebla. Me tot= e ne povas konceptar "kauzo" kom ago o stando... Forsan > Juste simple subi= sis influo dal Franca "causer"... > > Altra exemplo: en la verko "Quar rako= nti" da Guy de Maupassant, quan J. > Houillon tradukis de la Franca (1926),= on lektas yena frazo: "Ol [la > rivero] tamen esas bela, kande ol cintilas= ye la sun-levo" (p. 3). Omna > vorto-libri indikas ke "cintil/" esas subst= antivala radiko, verbigenda > nedirete ("cintilifar"). Pro quo Houillon (qu= a esis stilo-maestro, same kam > Juste) facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu jud= ikis "cintilo" kom ago o stando? > Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu simple sub= isis influo dal Franca > ("scintiller"). "cintilo" ya tote ne esas ago o st= ando, ma objekto... > > Nu, se stilo-maestri eroroze derivas pro influo da = certena nacionala > lingui, qui en ca o ta kazo derivas direte, forsan mult= i de ni, en > certena o mem multa okazioni, hezitas derivar direte pro la = inversa > motivo, nome, pro ke nia nacionala lingui ordinare ne verbigas la= > korespondanta substantivi... > > "futbalo", "wisto", "mazurko" edc, meao= pinione, ne expresas objekti od > abstrakta koncepti. Do on darfas direte v= erbigar oli: "futbalar", "wistar", > "mazurkar", mem se nula nacionala ling= uo verbigas oli. Tamen ne omna > substantivi en vua listo esas tala, segun = me. Exemple, "sharado", segun me, > expresas ne ago o stando, ma objekto. A= nke "ruleto" klare expresas objekto. > > La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan = ol habile solvesos dal homi qui > desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli = kom vana o neutila... > > Kordiale, > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > > > > > 2017-01-= 06 21:26 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, >> >> Me ya komprenas la lo= giko. Tamen, ne esas klara pro quo ula forsan >> posibla vorti ne (mem nult= empe?) mencionesas, e pro quo ula kap-vorti esas >> substantivi ma altri es= as verbi. >> >> Ni omna savas ke de verbo on darfas direte derivar substant= ivo, ma ne >> esas tam klara kande on darfas direte derivar verbo de substa= ntivo. >> Exemple, kad de "mestiero" ("sorto di laboro manuala") on darfas = derivar >> "mestierar"? >> >> Dyer havas: >> ludar - ludo >> Ma: >> sporto = - sportar. >> Anke, ma sen mencioni di verbi: >> bezigo >> biliardo >> brel= ano >> chaketo >> pentatlo >> pulo >> ruleto >> sharado >> teniso (e ludar = -o, ne tenisar!) >> triktrako >> wisto >> La LNV (1988) havas: >> futbalo. = >> Nun ni havas anke: >> golfo. >> >> Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular" e = "wistar"? >> >> Simile, Dyer havas: >> dansar >> polkar >> valsar (e vals-i= gar). >> Ma: >> entrechato >> farandolo >> foxtroto >> gavoto >> kontradans= o >> mazurko >> pavano >> polonezo >> sarabando >> skotisho. >> >> Existas = "sturmar" e "tempestar"; kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed >> "uraganar"? >> = >> Semblas dezirinda ke vort-libri indikez quo esas apta ube koncernas >> d= ireta verbigo. >> >> Necerte, ma kordiale, >> Robert C. >> >> > > --001a1142c13006d803054587a3c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la tre informa= nta respondo. Ne timez, tua laboro ne esas vana.

T= u esas justa, on ya darfas derivar verbo de substantivo qua reprezentas ago= o stando. Fakte, yen quon la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0skribas pri to= :

"1e Substantivo nemediate formacita de= verbo signifikas nature la ago o la stando expresata da ta verbo. Ex. : la= boro =3D ago laborar; jaco =3D ago jacar; langoro =3D stan= do langorar; emoco =3D stando emocar, sento emocar.
=

"Konsequo. =E2=80=94 Inverse on darfas formacar ve= rbo nemediate de substantivo, nur se ta substantivo expresas ago o stando. = Exemple, de paco on darfas formacar la verbo pacar =3D esar en pa= co, pro ke paco esas stando; ma de domo on ne darfas form= acar la verbo domar, qua havus nula senco, domo expresante nek ago, = nek stando (1)."

(Kompleta Gramatiko= , Louis de Beaufront, sub Nemediata derivado.)

Quo surprizas me esas ke on adoptis "sturmar" pos adoptir= "sturmo" segun l= a Lexiko di Nova Vorti. Anke, dicionarii tala quala ta di Dyer preferis= pozar "pacar" ante "paco", tale quale se "paco&qu= ot; derivus de "pacar" vice lo inversa. (Ma che Dyer, "jorno= " e "jornar" esas en la justa ordino.) Ka tala chanjo esis n= ecesa se la reguli igas lu neutila?

Etimologiale, = "futbalo" ya esus objekto, t.e. balono. Tamen, on decidis adoptar= la vorto nur por la ludo e to esas korekta. "futbalo" povas dive= nar "futbalar" tote quale "ludo" divenas "ludar&qu= ot;, "muziko" divenas "muzikar", e.c.

Sume, "nostalgiar", "eutanaziar", e.c., esas ko= rekta nam li esas stando ed ago.

"origino&quo= t; esas objekto od abstrakta koncepto, ka ne? Pesch dicas ke lu esas "= departopunto". Or on ne povas "puntar".

=
Per ta exemplo me judikus, ke Andreas Juste eroris pro sua "Franc= a mento". "originer" ya esas Franca verbo, tala quala "= causer", "scintiller", e.c.

Ma se o= n konsideras "origino" kom sinonimo di "komenco", to ch= anjas omno. "origino" esas punto dum ke "komenco" esas = ago.

Tamen itere me ne esas certa. "finar&quo= t; esas ago (segun Dyer), ma "fino" segun praktiko povas anke esa= r punto quale "origino".

"finar&quo= t; esas antonimo di "komencar", ka ne?
On komencas e finas laboro.

"fino" esas antonimo = di "origino", ka ne?
On komencas savar plu multe pri la= origino di la homaro, ma on ankore savas mem min multe pri lua f= ino.

Do ka "komencar" e "origin= o" singla havas nur un senco, dum ke "fino" havas du senci?<= /div>

Yen ni eniras griza parto di nia linguo! To intere= sas me.

"La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan ol habi= le solvesos dal homi qui desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli kom vana = o neutila..."
Certe! Certe! Nu, certe... ne.

<= div>Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-06 19:43 GMT-05:00 Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
<= p>

Kara = Robert,

En sua verko "Studyo pri la derivado en la = linguo internaciona" (1910), Couturat skribis i.a.:

"La substantivo nemediate derivita de verbo signifikas l'ago o st= ando expresata da la radiko. Konseque, ula verbo povas derivar nemediate de= substantivo nur se olca expresas ago o stando; ed en ica kazo la verbo sig= nifikas: facar ta ago, esar en ta stando." (p. 10)

= En sua verko "Idala foliumi" (198) Andreas Juste, citinte la supe= ra vorti da Couturat, argumentas yene:

"Segun ta pr= incipo ni povas do konsiderar exemple: "nostalgiar", "melank= oliar" o "originar", e tale plus, kom formi tote korekta.&qu= ot; (p. 61)

Teoriale,, do, omno semblas tre facila: se su= bstantivo expresas ago o stando (do, nek objekto nek koncepto), on darfas d= irete (o "nemediate", quale Couturat expresis lo) derivar verbo d= e olu. Tamen praktikale la kozo ne esas tante simpla. Exemple, en la supere= mencionita verko, Juste formacis la verbo "kauzar" direte de &qu= ot;kauzo" en yena frazo: "Certe on povas komprenar ed explikar la= fonetikala motivi, qui en antiqua epoko kauzis duopla pronunco di ta liter= o [...]"=C2=A0 (p. 67). Pro quo Juste facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu = judikis "kauzo" kom ago o stando? To esas desfacile intelektebla.= Me tote ne povas konceptar "kauzo" kom ago o stando... Forsan Ju= ste simple subisis influo dal Franca "causer"...

Altra exemplo: en la verko "Quar rakonti" da Guy de Maupassant= , quan J. Houillon tradukis de la Franca (1926), on lektas yena frazo: &quo= t;Ol [la rivero] tamen esas bela, kande ol cintilas ye la sun-levo" (p= . 3). Omna vorto-libri indikas ke "cintil/" esas substantivala ra= diko, verbigenda nedirete ("cintilifar"). Pro quo Houillon (qua e= sis stilo-maestro, same kam Juste) facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu judikis = "cintilo" kom ago o stando? Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu simple = subisis influo dal Franca ("scintiller"). "cintilo" ya = tote ne esas ago o stando, ma objekto...

Nu, se stilo-ma= estri eroroze derivas pro influo da certena nacionala lingui, qui en ca o t= a kazo derivas direte, forsan multi de ni,=C2=A0 en certena o mem multa okazi= oni, hezitas derivar direte pro la inversa motivo, nome, pro = ke nia nacionala lingui ordinare ne verbigas la korespondanta substantivi..= .

"futbalo", "wisto", "mazurko&= quot; edc, meaopinione, ne expresas objekti od abstrakta koncepti. Do on da= rfas direte verbigar oli: "futbalar", "wistar", "m= azurkar", mem se nula nacionala linguo verbigas oli. Tamen ne omna sub= stantivi en vua listo esas tala, segun me. Exemple, "sharado", se= gun me, expresas ne ago o stando, ma objekto. Anke "ruleto" klare= expresas objekto.

La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan ol= habile solvesos dal homi qui desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli kom = vana o neutila...

Kordiale,

Gon=C3= =A7alo

=C2=A0=


<= /font>

2017-01-06 21:26 GMT+00:00 'Robert C= .' ido@avenue.me.= uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= :
=C2=A0
=
=
Kara Gon=C3=A7= alo,
=C2= =A0
Me ya = komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne esas klara pro quo ula forsan posibla vorti = ne (mem nultempe?) mencionesas, e pro quo ula kap-vorti esas substantivi ma= altri esas verbi.
=C2=A0
Ni omna savas ke de verbo on darfas direte derivar substantivo, ma ne= esas tam klara kande on darfas direte derivar verbo de substantivo. Exempl= e, kad de "mestiero" ("sorto di laboro manuala") on dar= fas derivar "mestierar"?
=C2=A0
Dyer havas:
ludar - ludo
Ma:
sporto - sportar.
Anke, ma sen mencioni di verbi:
<= div class=3D"m_-6472306413965949661m_4604438206811536784body" style=3D"back= ground-color:white">bezigo
biliardo
brelano
chaketo
pentatlo
pulo
ruleto
sharado
teniso (e ludar -o, ne tenisar!)
triktrako
wisto
<= div class=3D"m_-6472306413965949661m_4604438206811536784body" style=3D"back= ground-color:white">La LNV (1988) havas:
futbalo.
Nun ni havas a= nke:
golfo= .
=C2=A0
Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular&= quot; e "wistar"?
=C2=A0
Simile, Dyer havas:
dansar
polkar
valsar (e vals-igar).
Ma:
entrechato
farandolo
foxtroto
gavoto
kontradanso
mazurko
pavano
polonezo
sarabando
skotisho.
=C2=A0
Existas "sturmar= " e "tempestar"; kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed &= quot;uraganar"?
=C2=A0
Semblas dezirinda ke vort-libr= i indikez quo esas apta ube koncernas direta verbigo.
=C2=A0
Necerte, ma kordiale,
Robert C.


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Me sugestas ulo qual "medulo spinal", pr= o ke tal > expresuro esas maxim klara ed internaciona che nia fonto-lingui.= En la > Latina, "myelo" esas "medulla spinalis", ka ne? Tamen, se advere e= sus > problemo uzar tal formo, ni anke havas formi qual "kordono spinal" od= irgo > altra simila. Omna-kaze, ni ne obliviez nia unesma e precipua skopo= : > revizar ortografiale vorti tala quala, i.a., "myelo, myelino, myelito".= > Altra opinioni pri ca temo esas certe bonvenanta. > > > (Partaka) > > = > --f403045e57fec3e498054587a957 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, me nur volis konsiderigar co da tu: ka "medulo&qu= ot;, segun sua nuna senco, esas logikoza en "medulo spinal"?

2017-01-07 15:48= GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.= es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= :
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gilles-Philippe:=C2=A0<= /span>

Lo maxim grava esas chanjar la = formo "myelo" ad altra formo plu bona, klara ed internaciona. Me = sugestas ulo qual "medulo spinal", pro ke tal expresuro esas maxi= m klara ed internaciona che nia fonto-lingui. En la Latina, "myelo&quo= t; esas "medulla spinalis", ka ne? Tamen, se advere esus problemo= uzar tal formo, ni anke havas formi qual "kordono spinal" od irg= o altra simila. Omna-kaze, ni ne obliviez nia unesma e precipua skopo: revi= zar ortografiale vorti tala quala, i.a., "myelo, myelino, myelito"= ;. Altra opinioni pri ca temo esas certe bonvenanta.=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka) =C2=A0=C2=A0

=

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Tamen, me ne memoras kazi en qui "di" u= zesas pos verbo. Kara Tiberio, Bonvenez itere! "quale" e "de" amba sembla= s tre bona, segun nia logiko. Tamen, en la kazo di la reala frazo quan me = probis tradukar, "Les rues puaient le fumier", esas ya sterko en la stradi.= Konseque: la stradi malodoris *de* sterko. Danko pro la helpo. Me pacien= te vartez tua artiklo! Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-06 19= :45 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Yen tre bona novajo! > > 2017-01-06 11:38 GMT= +00:00 tiberiorevas@gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >: > >> >> >> Me dankas! Balde me publikigos ulo nova en mea blogo linguala= , pro ke >> recente me facis importanta deskovro en la gramatiko di Ido. >>= Kordiale, >> Tiberio >> > > > > --f403045ec3c2b1f7e0054587c2f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara James,
Danko pro vua vidpunto. Tamen, me ne memor= as kazi en qui "di" uzesas pos verbo.

Ka= ra Tiberio,
Bonvenez itere!

"quale&= quot; e "de" amba semblas tre bona, segun nia logiko.
<= br>
Tamen, en la kazo di la reala frazo quan me probis tradukar, = "Les rues puaient le fumier", esas ya sterko en la stradi. Konseq= ue: la stradi malodoris=C2=A0de=C2=A0sterko.

Danko pro la helpo.

Me paciente vartez tua artik= lo!

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe=

2017-= 01-06 19:45 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroup= s.com>:
=
=C2= =A0

Yen tre bona novajo!

2017-01-06 11:38 GMT+00:00 tiberiorevas@gmail.com [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Me dankas! Balde me publikigos= ulo nova en mea blogo linguala, pro ke recente me facis importanta deskovr= o en la gramatiko di Ido.
Kordiale,
Tiberio

=


=

--f403045ec3c2b1f7e0054587c2f2-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4719 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22082 invoked by uid 102); 7 Jan 2017 21:33:11 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 2017 21:33:11 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 31810 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2017 21:33:11 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.119) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 2017 21:33:11 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.43 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: sPu.pGUWLDvBm9dAmXDhxb9gTgSutcNMoEFsfzwt.KLleouA YaVVOpF2sIprTFkyCideR_zKchMpL_h98Z.VAtviLHU0uLeiTfhEKsODgFUk EKbWyte9eLzokDuv1nUxkq_qk8Syn5._hh54.Fqu93nB_Ec6q.fUo16uWtWL z7Vnbqrh_FTZQknwWl1iukOwJJMHPs6U7PEBEXgtx.AGj31jPmC0LCEIEgy4 fZy8TdwxeEvtSG0997zcqyE5VJNJQClL5pxW.5AOG4HdPuXL9.6bJ8sfhnj. bRN9ILc8l1rnNkHHEtspcjjTvj_4n8gmDC.ew3sw1O10aCo1dFQ_wqQv79Sm pVRtg9OtW_0LhiFjnqHyZBhEiIlFwzQJ8rRVJCvKGevp1BDT91QX4HLGDESz CEcgZZNaVLkNW3yvCLJbTp80sFhnahczbNFPgQ4MFUpPhjhh7j9D25TRj.yP og5irB.NAjnXE2zXHmy.pPDo_RLZgKRvpIYAO_W0Ty64rUdeQY8IOllGvm5J GUmIESURzbU_tsQFFFh5yO7eEygsRrShMY4CU0vr9K3X3ETUB0XLHW57CV0_ iaKqk877HWlhoFpkVdpknhf6QG.cPdAGEqg8W6oSv5EAhXW_A1PBSX2M1Mun 6Nl9AFpBm3LlH8Z8vhQ4pFHuMfEcc0Hw_34Ahq.FPKyvGWA1.UnoF7ZYbl31 ShmT.M.xtU7.6IaobAuVKKAuCh5E959msF6iLegLIG4iQAca8yYflrEhYS6a Ssv4zbH8Xe2S5hxXHhJS8dTW4kaf6kNEEKgsn.cBjRoTioLpzahfNJOvc17y FQfvu2AO14z21WNMbCo8cN7zamN6fBmzxiCPgS3HfE6ur1g5HESjiQjLNw8D ElblMjQ3S_AqlwATvGF1qzHOsIRIbwqbs3MTGM8eMSOvTU9k7PdtfjCcavcD 8BAdKanTZz383ssDL3g1Rhl4A8G04xt5aJlOExbmLLoZfZdp82706CYQY2rK UZDQh_Yo33EEZxAHE2Rp54AspKZlHSY1xeJbT8Eehm.Otw5UrioBtuhjmRoZ EZw0nC7bgZIQ8ED_nhyWAj6396I2Edw5xfYOzC5zyYdZ0xtxJiCVDJ97Q3f1 FrxW1jEVOlq4J.EDLHvuhCnREED1mz3TY8SByORvLMHT.ngDWUqCpDIkQJVk 69.KeoKofSJmuDotWm4VvR3WGhwFALfKGOMnqDHVapQSO7WvXFqWzbd024P0 NG3jcxddblzTOmPi_gJHNfxwvho7EFKO8Bblc9sPysGnHD_mA0cTkfDR8Qy6 VAoUprqXxRde6pGP7.5bChb4gEpcwYHFELfszX5tJbSFprgizbo3EjkNMrgZ pbjnghlDqxnvtP_ezcvVYqD.NV7abfzajtg6yRAMpcjn5_8dTsE6U72i3LNL W5WqeVD.GhmuNPxjPzQyYF8SscjG4mQaT9osBB5BwSIwTWjPb_BjTPoIyo.W HrDgYyvdZ77QvUANqeRp8IFigfIs.F93ekXPsHV7oIED09XFhA6AZ62BkWOV qSAigoiyZQJEnpndJ0b8mT9xHgDgtcMNCAdGCNX3vu.OZBCScDYeYbdKHbPm 04_mCS_muH.bMvOcWKUFjOg1SDoRTO8- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f43.google.com) (209.85.215.43) by mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 21:33:10 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f43.google.com with SMTP id v186so19527356lfa.1 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 13:33:10 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=X6BZgneBb+/LIGzTOd9jFyWbaDysD4sy/n3V00qplaA=; b=ZyM/7XMPzErRnMztrLS7jLsTJw0hLL7t6DNWgv6QnDP8yBISKojU9upRt7f3MdGkKA jMqEE2+2y2A+o6DnYiTvKaPC2yP1pbuKhJ/lZQL+cP7KUExg+RuTXc11pKlBAOiJNI16 kK3K/5WhGLVBCSgcOsrfVpxlqH6GomRdVd4IgO+Lc0EtIGWhOgMZNthWPxEFyL4UFCbd m7dj9A4IPmUU1Nc7tknO5D2xwGd++/4pZwKLLPJ25WPpH/0zH67wjdBDBBt79O+Q6/Rz suNG/bO7NalyxSAYR0WMYtfrt/KXviw8VER455VDDelg/0/YeS8DifCjWUL88TJCprJN GHXg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLfdo4vWjjk34DBr5mL3/k8zTEd30za5c2v+j+Gmb8bxSM2fTbxLLtnzoRhW55WyE7iKQCEjMeqywENpA== X-Received: by 10.25.38.1 with SMTP id m1mr30815962lfm.102.1483824789076; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 13:33:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 13:33:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20171321327.285962@D9B5MN3J> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:33:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113c98247640fb054587e1e2 Subject: Re: [linguo] dinosaurio X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113c98247640fb054587e1e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yen la ligilo a la *sito pri qua Partaka skribis: http://www.uli-ido.ovh/LK= /viewtopic.php?id=3D6 2017-01-06 5:10 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [l= inguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Bon jorno, James! > En t= ua listeto ne aparas la formo "ekosistemo", qua trovesas en la listo > quan= ULI publikigis en sua ret-loko. Forsan l'amiko Lo=C3=AFc voluntos informar= > ni omna kad "ekosistemo" es advere ofical o ne. Yen pro quo me kontis ne= > 17, ma 18 vorti. > ------- > 2 ekosistem.o [Ekol.] Sencese interrelatant= a ensemblo de *biocenozo e > biotopo [A ecosystem | F =C3=A9cosyst=C3=A8me = | G =C3=96kosystem | HI ecosistema | I > biosistema | R ekosistyema]. > > >= (Partaka) > > > --001a113c98247640fb054587e1e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yen la ligilo a la *sito pri qua Partaka skribis:=C2=A0http://www.uli-ido.= ovh/LK/viewtopic.php?id=3D6

2017-01-06 5:10 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] &= lt;linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= u>
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_-7112640191976764175ygrp-msg">

Bo= n jorno, James!=C2=A0

En tua = listeto ne aparas la formo "ekosistemo", qua trovesas en la listo= quan ULI publikigis en sua ret-loko. Forsan l'amiko Lo=C3=AFc voluntos= informar ni omna kad "ekosistemo" es advere ofical o ne. Yen pro= quo me kontis ne 17, ma 18 vorti.
-------=C2=A0
2=C2= =A0ekosistem.o=C2=A0[Ekol.] Sencese inte= rrelatanta ensemblo de *biocenozo e biotopo [A ecosystem | F =C3=A9cosyst= =C3=A8me | G =C3=96kosystem | HI ecosistema | I biosistema | R ekosistyema]= .=C2=A0


=C2=A0(PPartaka)

=
=

--001a113c98247640fb054587e1e2-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4720 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 33497 invoked by uid 102); 7 Jan 2017 22:30:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m17.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 2017 22:30:20 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 7200 invoked from network); 7 Jan 2017 22:30:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.82) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 7 Jan 2017 22:30:20 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: n5bN9EEWLDuvKQs76lI4_ls1Z9UkOTQ.RMqOXNaR89kjvOYy 5Uo4FrqeEmAa1RB_3TsnNPDOeNQXuCAi4SZD16aLiddwObpEA8NUN4WkAgQd w3nBiiKxldWBQsmo7vtPzHUtkBI__1vIz_Gc1TaH.IB58053H.H9A3rFMfs7 kvwoAUfbOXYbiz2xrKw8MuBj1Ww9hs1KMNSL4ni1taVGv76LBLztnxtbDtAu hqBQGXhk1UKLIT5xoWH0PTZinoaN6AvWC8KpNrqT8YftTJa.RUp1IlfG44aB fqDhXpZ9wjgrI1tN14Wr8ERAymaiq_Kr73CtezIkSIKhAa.YaOGDbWnKe92k m28PLuEr.v1RpTYwP58Vi_qHf0zPK2EkMCgKT7MBH5Yc_EdE_SveMz5GRoSH jH31EOrV.3yn45XIe2LNAgEkfo40fjlwhmW5ex7jU0wFRqLQZjR0KKmK38wF p9bvj.6CZztMNeVyyNYl.TFOxNJc6v7EriLdUMoAMOvOEh4lkALXLmULMU6U fGaahFNuh3ll7lgTQOkxmpWURewJ4c6fvFibZ0dXG_7NE9t3RHnwRJhjB_Pm eQnFzafIyMx7qfm6wY0mI_5vEhVseaR0CM1y83E.pj_f11cDTFutVPhOyqe5 p9PSJzaxt3C60Bus6oiV8a.bEkukVtxb74ZE7u1g9fwL7MQHdKQI16EkXt9H mhCWXBKYUz_5ggIBASaftGqVNf5rBbH26iR9gIB9x1CVKExLSKO4OyGJ.AfH QC6mGu7cxCHCPHnXIjjyZw3XpWYt5E.Fyi_ueJ2TX.mdMYymUaZMuDL80ZTE W98L3LUd18iuQsacer2N8m_5WFlNwBtVW0pqHZNefBzFRQPPe4ehEhzRNCit arW7NH8YlhUaNXliTzHHIQKvJ9wFVHhZnubvy0ILl6Aa8Ztnic5q5UULIHOw 8l0QMtf7cL4goSpIRZFRHf3DuPzCK.oy24isaa1RV4TX6.M1oSd68EYcJARr k3XIIsMuJASb.TySjqWOsZUElzyoi7GYAbCX8aPaoD.WxOAct7Uj1oATGSjs xoqkF8MjHEcsPlaXH8CrTmRMMmkafGurLrRNRj_et1BJafySuiwrOZaz7zyE usGgqQYQ_DcEosLflPbql1rg4R28xlkzbaL_QmbPKzrkE3ji1GdZWTXbn5c6 Tr0BiM1waOqRDNX3qtKTk6auWNZyfFtC1rQodtaIiSHLnkziWhxnpTETubeb zDPiTGOclGEFBmSdYEem2zNkvZHtoSwiXQ2v5vn23UAwxH8sP3KX4EFe1emx HS4DjoDlxsmGvXd1kSYSkr5dYRsKpk.1b6c1NOA2eCaDd9mfUTGmwC1AKG.L go4cQ3mj5dzkbVaciRu0LDD_nYqI.zAsKpwWZJc- Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f48.google.com) (209.85.215.48) by mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 22:30:19 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f48.google.com with SMTP id k86so74467427lfi.0 for ; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 14:30:19 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=XHic+dBylpxZUJEUpkVd3xjUTyLomRizzD9apwgkCLE=; b=lu9UQMOIVYXa/hyFO1E/+OiesS1JynLnjNBPaRLg7rynw+/XtEQKe1fkWV1Uv5yQd9 MEeuo5W4YnGaDGqiWpY+Sr4xEKM1eewdn3QYFx3FyQ6+/41j90Phj9Fevk+8hdb9Olu/ mlbHn6t3Ea+OMDkoPperXZ1TB+OeAJqTnn2KXjqWk3921CzqGglNO+xjiXGAm9BXbYVi d/jlCAJ7UVPPjRFt8ChY/ocN5vYMs+E2GhpjwiB2tNpVX7Kb3lC97iA28uTd++MEwhJc 0Bc6UfNnT4MpZypOXmj/862pZTIXDWE9YO1MJhYrj2v1ApBSY3HIfpRQHmK8PWopu0HF It1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJLahy4c4zDN/N+G6UsqcgyuuagVn1bWV/m8VPB9IyTtyDgy6u4aR0pDAoYMzGhkr40izu1EuSNb/sbVQ== X-Received: by 10.25.93.65 with SMTP id p1mr22791959lfj.120.1483828217604; Sat, 07 Jan 2017 14:30:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 14:30:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201716211751.367789@D9B5MN3J> References: <201716211751.367789@D9B5MN3J> Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 17:30:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045e57fed171a7054588ad60 Subject: Re: [linguo] Pri "expresar" e "kontredicar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045e57fed171a7054588ad60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, kara Robert, Yen plusa problemo. Segun Dyer, "*Dicar* s= empre relatas ula objekto" (cf. *dicar*). On ne darfas (o mem, plu juste, = *povas*) uzar la verbo "dicar" sen objekto, ka yes? "Me dicas ad ulu." Yes= , "me dicas", ma me dicas *quo*? On ne povas skribar nur "Me dicas ad ulu" = ed asertar ke to esas kompleta frazo. La verbo mankas objekto; on mustas di= car *ulo*. Do pro quo on uzez "kontre-dicar" *sempre sen objekto*? Simile= , "Me kontredicas ad ulu" esas senlogika. Me kontredicas *quo*? Amba "kont= redicar [ulu]" e "kontredicar ad [ulu]" esas kontre la transitiveso di "dic= ar [ulo]". Do, segun via logiko, quo esas uzenda? Dyer dicas: "Gramatikale= , *dicar* esas transitiva, *parolar* netransitiva: co konstitucas granda, e= sencala difero." On ne povas skribar "me dicas" sen objekto, ma on povas s= kribar "me parolas". Anke, on povas parolar *ad ulu*. Do "kontreparolar ad = [ulu]" esus justa. Altra solvo posibla esus adoptar nova vorto, t.e. *kont= radic/ar. Malgre to, me konkordas kun Tiberio. Kara Tiberio, Me anke kred= as ke "kontredicar" esas "ecepto" di la reguli da de Beaufront. Lu skribis = la reguli en sua gramatiko, ma lu *kontredicis su* en praktiko. Tale la reg= ulo esas nevalida takaze. On do darfez uzar "kontredicar [ulu]". Ni ne obl= iviez ne nur la reguli ma anke *lia skopi*. En ta kazo, la regulo existas p= or evitar konfundar la du objekti quin derivado posibligas ( *travidar*, *s= upervarsar*, e.c., esas bona exempli). Tamen, en praktiko omnu savas ke "ko= ntredicar [ulu]" specifike ofras nula dubito e nula problemo. Kun kordiala= saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 4:17 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@a= venue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Kara= Gon=C3=A7alo, > Me konsentas. Fakte, me pensis same pos skribar antee. > "= Pro quo vu sempre kontredicas a me?" Nun me mustas memorar uzar la vorto > = tale! > Anke ula lexiki bezonos korektigo ... > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > >= Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 23:1= 2:40 > +0000: > Kara Robert, > > Semblas ke vu esas justa: la ago dementiar= expresas ulo plusa ultre nura > kontredico: koncernesas ya kontredico qua = vizas pruvar mentio, od adminime > mentiemeso o mentiatra aserto, dal kunpa= rolanto. Konseque, por expresar > kontredico koncernanta ne dicajo ma perso= no, on povas simple uzar ta verbo > netransitive per adjuntita prepoziciono= , exemple: "ne kontredicez a me!", > "pro quo tu kontredicis a mea patro?",= "per ta aserti vu kontredicas a vu > ipsa". To forsan solvas la problemo. = > > Pri "nevroso" me parolos pose. > > Kordiale, > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > > 2= 017-01-05 21:08 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, > > Pri "dementiar", s= emblas ke ankorfoye Pesch eroras. La lexiko Franca-Ido > dicas "dementiar (= ulu, pri ulo), quale Dyer. On ne dementias ulo dicita. > Tamen refutar aser= to od opiniono ne esas simple expresar altra opiniono ma > (segun Dyer) "ko= mbatar aserto od opiniono per argumenti, qui nuligas ol o > qui pruvas la k= ontreajo". > > Dyer semblas indikar ke dementiar esas (quale forsan la etim= ologio > montras?) akuzo o preske akuzo pri mentio, od adminime plu forta e= publika > kam (eroroze) "kontre-dicar". > > Pri "nevroso" e cetere, volunt= ez ignorar kritiki e skribez pri vua > hipotezo. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. = > ----------- > > > Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - T= hu, 5 Jan 2017 19:10:25 > +0000: > > > > > Kara Robert, > > > > > Me supoza= s ke "dementiar" esas apta vorto por expresar la senco > "kontredicar ulu".= Yen la unesma defino che Pesch: "Kontredicar (ulu) kom > nedicinta lo exak= ta". La duesma defino che Pesch ("kontredicar (to quon > dicas ulu) kom nee= xakta" supozigas ke "dementiar" esas apta por expresar > anke la senco "kon= tredicar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dyer ne tote > konkordas, nam il atribu= as transitiveso nur al unuesma senco ("dementiar > ulu") e preferas rekursa= r a netransitiveso por expresar la duesma > ("dementiar pri ulo"). To esas = detalo negrava, segun me. Irgakaze, on povas > rekursar anke al verbo "refu= tar" por expresar la duesma senco, ka ne? > > > > > Kordiale, > > > > > Gon= =C3=A7alo > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' = ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > > Ka= ra Gilles-Philippe, > > Segun la granda lexiko Franca-Ido: > exprimer (tr.)= expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar > su, parolar. > = > Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ic= a > exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o = > metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on da= rfas > ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante = homi). > > Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Cou= turat en > lia granda lexiko: > contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-m= eme) kontre-dicar su; > (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar. > > Tamen, sembl= as a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur > ulo dicita = (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico > pruvas ke, = de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras. > > Icakaze re= stas problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? > Ni havas = du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on > demandas ulo = ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "dicar" > ulu. > > Kor= diale, > Robert C. > > > > --f403045e57fed171a7054588ad60 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, kara Robert,
Yen plusa problemo.

Segun Dyer, "Dicar sempre relatas ula ob= jekto" (cf. dicar).

On ne darfas (o me= m, plu juste, povas) uzar la verbo "dicar" sen objekto, ka= yes?

"Me dicas ad ulu." Yes, "me d= icas", ma me dicas quo? On ne povas skribar nur "Me dicas = ad ulu" ed asertar ke to esas kompleta frazo. La verbo mankas objekto;= on mustas dicar ulo.

Do pro quo on uzez &q= uot;kontre-dicar" sempre sen objekto?

= Simile, "Me kontredicas ad ulu" esas senlogika. Me kontredicas quo?

Amba "kontredicar [ulu]" e &qu= ot;kontredicar ad [ulu]" esas kontre la transitiveso di "dicar [u= lo]". Do, segun via logiko, quo esas uzenda?

= Dyer dicas: "Gramatikale, dicar esas transitiva, parolar= netransitiva: co konstitucas granda, esencala difero."

=
On ne povas skribar "me dicas" sen objekto, ma on pova= s skribar "me parolas". Anke, on povas parolar ad ulu. Do = "kontreparolar ad [ulu]" esus justa.

Alt= ra solvo posibla esus adoptar nova vorto, t.e. *kontradic/ar.
Malgre to, me konkordas kun Tiberio.

K= ara Tiberio,
Me anke kredas ke "kontredicar" esas "= ;ecepto" di la reguli da de Beaufront. Lu skribis la reguli en sua gra= matiko, ma lu=C2=A0kontredicis su=C2=A0en praktiko. Tale la regulo e= sas nevalida takaze. On do darfez uzar "kontredicar [ulu]".
=

Ni ne obliviez ne nur la reguli ma anke lia skopi. En ta kazo, la regulo existas por evitar konfundar la du objekti quin de= rivado posibligas (travidar, supervarsar, e.c., esas bona exe= mpli). Tamen, en praktiko omnu savas ke "kontredicar [ulu]" speci= fike ofras nula dubito e nula problemo.

Kun kordia= la saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
=
On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 4:17 PM, 'Robert = C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolis= to] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Me konsentas. Fakte, me pensis same pos skribar antee.=
"Pro quo vu sempre kontredicas a = me?" Nun me mustas memorar uzar la vorto tale!
Anke ula lexiki bezonos korektigo ...
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 23:12:40 +0= 000:=C2=A0
Kara Robert,

Semblas ke vu esas justa:= la ago dementiar expresas ulo plusa ultre nura kontredico: koncernesas ya = kontredico qua vizas pruvar mentio, od adminime mentiemeso o mentiatra aser= to, dal kunparolanto. Konseque, por expresar kontredico koncernanta ne dica= jo ma persono, on povas simple uzar ta verbo netransitive per adjuntita pre= poziciono, exemple: "ne kontredicez a me!", "pro quo tu kont= redicis a mea patro?", "per ta aserti vu kontredicas a vu ipsa&qu= ot;. To forsan solvas la problemo.

Pri "nevroso" me parolo= s pose.

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo


=C2=A0
= 2017-01-05 21:08 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com>:

=C2=A0<= /span>
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
=
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">=C2=A0
Pri "dementiar", semblas ke ankorfoye Pesch eroras. La lexik= o Franca-Ido dicas "dementiar (ulu, pri ulo), quale Dyer. On ne dement= ias ulo dicita. Tamen refutar aserto od opiniono ne esas simple expresar al= tra opiniono ma (segun Dyer) "kombatar aserto od opiniono per argument= i, qui nuligas ol o qui pruvas la kontreajo".
=C2=A0
Dyer = semblas indikar ke dementiar esas (quale forsan la etimologio montras?) aku= zo o preske akuzo pri mentio, od adminime plu forta e publika kam (eroroze)= "kontre-dicar".
=C2= =A0
Pri "nevroso" e ce= tere, voluntez ignorar kritiki e skribez pri vua hipotezo.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
-----------
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] = - Thu, 5 Jan 2017 19:10:25 +0000:=C2=A0<




Kara Robert,




Me supozas ke "demen= tiar" esas apta vorto por expresar la senco "kontredicar ulu"= ;. Yen la unesma defino che Pesch: "Kontredicar (ulu) kom nedicinta lo= exakta". La duesma defino che Pesch ("kontredicar (to quon dicas= ulu) kom neexakta" supozigas ke "dementiar" esas apta por e= xpresar anke la senco "kontredicar ulo". Tamen, segun semblo, Dye= r ne tote konkordas, nam il atribuas transitiveso nur al unuesma senco (&qu= ot;dementiar ulu") e preferas rekursar a netransitiveso por expresar l= a duesma ("dementiar pri ulo"). To esas detalo negrava, segun me.= Irgakaze, on povas rekursar anke al verbo "refutar" por expresar= la duesma senco, ka ne?




Kordiale,




Gon=C3= =A7alo











=
= 2017-01-05 18:28 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.= 9; ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


<= div class=3D"m_9177447191629130809body" style=3D"background-color:white">=C2=A0
Kara Gilles-Philippe,
=C2=A0=
Segun la granda lexiko Franca-I= do:
exprimer (tr.) expresar (ulo= , per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.
<= div class=3D"m_9177447191629130809body" style=3D"background-color:white">=C2=A0
Me supozas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per = ica exemplo) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o = metafore esas lua pensi (expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darf= as ulakaze konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi= ).
=C2=A0
Plu desfacila esas vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufron= t e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:
contredire (tr.) kontre-dicar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; (mut= uellement) inter-kontre-dicar.
= =C2=A0
Tamen, semblas a me ke vu= esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicita (me ne kontre-d= icas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, de foyo a foyo, m= em experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
=C2=A0
Icakaze resta= s problemo: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni h= avas du simila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas = per ke on demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por= "dicar" ulu.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
= =C2=A0


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Sat, 07 Jan 2017 16:01:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Sat, 7 Jan 2017 16:01:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2017 19:01:30 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f8fa40b8001054589f423 Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: Pri "champiniono", "malyoto" e la litero "y" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113f8fa40b8001054589f423 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bone! Me preferas "medulo spinal" vice "kordono spinal", nam ca esas poke i= nternaciona. Me pluse exploris "myelo" en DEFIRS. Me nun kredas ke "medul= o" ne bezonus sencochanjo... Semblas ke la Franca "moelle" (medulo) havas = kom chefa senco la sama kam la nuna "medulo" (ostala), e ke en "moelle =C3= =A9pini=C3=A8re" (medulo spinala) on simple uzas "medulo" per analogeso. S= ame pri la Germana "Mark" (de qua on obtenas "R=C3=BCckenmark") e la Hispan= a "m=C3=A9dula/medula" (qua, segun la DLE = , esas chefe "substanco mola dil internajo di la osti". Do, "medulo" e "me= dulo ostala" esas sinonimi, dum ke "myelo" e "medulo spinal" esas anke sino= nimi. Tale on uzez la triesma defino di "medulo" da Pesch: "la parto maxim= intima di substanco." Sume, ne esus problemo kun nia propozo, ecepte kun = *cyana (pri qua me propozas *cianea se *ciana esas problemo). Danko! Gill= es-Philippe On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 5:55 PM, qualevistandas@yahoo.es [lingu= olisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Se "medulo" (ed ostal = ed spinal) es posibla ed internaciona en nia > fonto-lingui, pro quo ol ne = povus esar lo en Ido? Me konjektas, ke la > definuro, quan tu sugestas, esa= s bona por ensembligar, che "medulo", olta > ostal ed olta spinal. Irga-kaz= e, me repetas ke, se tal adjuntajo esus tro > problemoza, me havus nula pro= blemo aceptar "kordono spinal" o similajo, > vice la tilnuna "myelo". O.K? = > > (Partaka) > > > --001a113f8fa40b8001054589f423 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bone! Me preferas "medulo spinal" vice "kor= dono spinal", nam ca esas poke internaciona.

Me plu= se exploris "myelo" en DEFIRS.

Me nun kr= edas ke "medulo" ne bezonus sencochanjo...

Semblas ke la Franca "moelle" (medulo) havas kom chefa senco l= a sama kam la nuna "medulo" (ostala), e ke en "moelle =C3=A9= pini=C3=A8re" (medulo spinala) on simple uzas "medulo" per a= nalogeso.

Same pri la Germana "Mark" (de= qua on obtenas "R=C3=BCckenmark") e la Hispana "m=C3=A9dula= /medula" (qua, segun la DL= E, esas chefe "substanco mola dil internajo di la osti".

Do, "medulo" e "medulo ostala" esa= s sinonimi, dum ke "myelo" e "medulo spinal" esas anke = sinonimi.

Tale on uzez la triesma defino di "= medulo" da Pesch: "la parto maxim intima di substanco."

Sume, ne esus problemo kun nia propozo, ecepte kun *cy= ana (pri qua me propozas *cianea se *ciana esas problemo).

Danko!

Gilles-Philippe

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 5= :55 PM, qualevistandas@yahoo.es<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wr= ote:
=C2=A0
=

Se "medulo" (ed ostal ed= spinal) es posibla ed internaciona en nia fonto-lingui, pro quo ol ne povu= s esar lo en Ido? Me konjektas, ke la definuro, quan tu sugestas, esas bona= por ensembligar, che "medulo", olta ostal ed olta spinal. Irga-k= aze, me repetas ke, se tal adjuntajo esus tro problemoza, me havus nula pro= blemo aceptar "kordono spinal" o similajo, vice la tilnuna "= myelo". O.K?=C2=A0


<= /span>
=C2=A0(Partaka)


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Kara samideani,
Me deziras informar vi ke me trovis la= dicionarii da Dyer (1924) komplete skanita en la Interreto. Me ne savas ka= d on ja savis to, ma Google skanis plura milion libri. La dicionarii da Dye= r esis du ek ti.

Ni dankez Google e la Universitat= o di Oxford pro ta grava laboro.

Yen la PDF-dokume= nti. Li esas tre pezoza: inter 82 e 99 MB.=C2=A0

I= do-Angla

Angla-Ido

Angle-Ido (version= o alternativa)

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Phi= lippe
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Sun, 08 Jan 2017 06:11:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jan 2017 06:11:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 09:11:56 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113c982479be5e054595d543 Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: Pri "champiniono", "malyoto" e la litero "y" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113c982479be5e054595d543 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "cianogeno" ya esas internaciona, tale quale "hidrogeno" (ma qua havas la s= inonimo plu kurta "hido" strikte ciencala) e "oxigeno" (qua anke havas la s= inonimo plu kurta "oxo" strikte ciencala). Nu, me komprenas pro quo on sel= ektis "ciano" se me sequas la derivado di Dyer: cian-o =3D cyanogen cian-a = =3D cyanic cian-ido =3D cyanide (Yes, mem se -id- esas kustumale por homi!)= cian-ato =3D cyanate Tamen, me vidas nula informo pri -id- e -at-... Ka l= i esas oficala? Gilles-Philippe P.S. Me jus trovis la vorto "cyanean" en = la Angla. 2017-01-08 6:56 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] = < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Yen ke "ciana", forsan, ne esus prob= lemo, se ni havus "cianogeno", vice > "ciano", quale che nia precipua fonto= -lingui. Ka "cianogeno" e "ciano" esas > lo sama? Se yes, pro quo selektesi= s olca e ne olta? Ka pro lua kurteso? Ka > pro ke on ne ja previdabis apart= a nomo por ta konkreta verd-blua koloro? Se > ni duros uzar "ciano", yen ke= "ciana" e "cianea" ("qua esas ciano" e > "cian-kolora") semblas a me esar = ne-konvenanta (maxim aparte pro ke "ciano" > ne havas koloro). Do, se ni ko= nservos "ciano" (vice "cianogeno"), me > previdas por la koloro nur ulo qua= l la mencionita "verd-blua", od ulo qual > "ciyana" (formo ne nur Turkatra,= ma anke Slavatra ed Esperantatra). Anke > ca-kaze, plusa opinioni esas bon= venanta. > > (Partaka) > > > --001a113c982479be5e054595d543 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"cianogeno" ya esas internaciona, tale quale &qu= ot;hidrogeno" (ma qua havas la sinonimo plu kurta "hido" str= ikte ciencala) e "oxigeno" (qua anke havas la sinonimo plu kurta = "oxo" strikte ciencala).

Nu, me komprenas pro = quo on selektis "ciano" se me sequas la derivado di Dyer:
cian-o =3D cyanogen
cian-a =3D cyanic
cian-ido =3D c= yanide (Yes, mem se -id- esas kustumale por homi!)
cian-ato =3D c= yanate

Tamen, me vidas nula informo pri -id- e -at= -... Ka li esas oficala?

<
Gilles-Philippe

P.S. Me jus trovis la vorto "cyanean" en la Angla= .

2017= -01-08 6:56 GMT-05:00 qualevista= ndas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >:
=C2=A0 =
=

Yen ke "ciana", forsan= , ne esus problemo, se ni havus "cianogeno", vice "ciano&quo= t;, quale che nia precipua fonto-lingui. Ka "cianogeno" e "c= iano" esas lo sama? Se yes, pro quo selektesis olca e ne olta? Ka pro = lua kurteso? Ka pro ke on ne ja previdabis aparta nomo por ta konkreta verd= -blua koloro? Se ni duros uzar "ciano", yen ke "ciana" = e "cianea" ("qua esas ciano" e "cian-kolora")= semblas a me esar ne-konvenanta (maxim aparte pro ke "ciano" ne = havas koloro). Do, se ni konservos "ciano" (vice "cianogeno&= quot;), me previdas por la koloro nur ulo qual la mencionita "verd-blu= a", od ulo qual "ciyana" (formo ne nur Turkatra, ma anke Sla= vatra ed Esperantatra). Anke ca-kaze, plusa opinioni esas bonvenanta.=C2=A0=


=C2=A0(Partaka)

=

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Semblas a me ke esas problemo= pri ula vorti pri kolori. Yen la koloro-vorti quin me trovis en diversa le= xiki (inkluzante blanka e nigra - kolori honorala?), ma probable esas altri= .
 
azuro, -ea
beja
bistra
blanka
blonda
blua
bruna<
cinabrea
falva
flava
granatea
griza
= indigo
izabela
kakia
karmezina
karmezi= no
k= armino, -ea
kastanea
lilacea
maronea
nakarata
nakarato
nigra
orea
oranjeea
ponsa
purpura
purpuro
reda
rozea
= rufa
skarlata
=
skarlato<= /div>
ultramaro. = -a, -ea
umbro (?)
verda
violea
 
La problemo esas ke la vorti bazala por ul= a kolori esas, segun nia lexiki, substantivi. Pluse, en poka kazi, esas tro= vebla adjektivi e substantivi nederivita ma kun sama radiko. Yen manko di l= ogiko.
 
Se on komencas per adjektivo, exemple "reda", la diret= e o nemediate derivita substantivo, "redo", reprezentas irga kozo o persono= qua esas reda.
 
Tamen se on komencas per substantivo, exemple= "indigo" o "nakarato", ed on derivas adjektivo nemediate, exemple "nakarat= a", la senco dil adjektivo esas gramatike "ta qua esas nakarato", ne ta qua= havas la koloro nakarato. Kontraste, redo ne esas koloro, ma irga kozo red= a. Esas difero inter esar koloro e havar koloro!
 
Ni mustas de= cidar, exemple, kad havar "purpuro, -ea" o "purpura, -(aj)o". Me kredas ke = omna koloro-vorti mustas esar adjektivi, exemple "reda" e "skarlata", ne "r= eda" e "skarlato".
 
Quale opinionas altri?
&= nbsp;
Kordi= ale,
 
Robert C.
 
  From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4727 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 26863 invoked by uid 102); 9 Jan 2017 00:44:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2017 00:44:20 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 28464 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2017 00:44:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.121) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2017 00:44:20 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: dOAQ3zMWLDsnQecrZIHyjt2dyNeciyWNbxYbskasqIbsCb1W Z_PyMkzkhKILa9JfDcoopvPbwrem.VUNSdIE_8Nc9YZsEMIYEQ5EG0PiUQYj FQ9m5cxK5ocZqjazCkTK07Bdz0c8nJHZAoGWgiNRoAIpc_D2rrS_BFd9LiDM SdKpQTd0O57iQz986o0DAp21jnQIKQvS4OqknNw6_QyF6.dbNArHD4jl.uqS 1.EP.wyrgWwck.YKhfoDqrQ3LZqToqJaPYoKBuAMz1FQX.mbSlm.M9MiwfiU oTFhElNkplkX0lVAaW4KlzLzNYKzwNtNrazMjvBVqqdU5vQXED0HgS2jERjp E89pV8WdIHTCxjeQ.TTmjQRbIOGL2B8P_LmO3nqA9H4wfRZXmP28W4WTsbYP Ln8vcxSXUHwvLmJ5cnFt2T69RI45Q4sMBda6JCAzgkmwsTnkxfZEFCktsLOs gsmejVBdFjT7XPDitJXN_Xjb70eijV1oROCIX6hDSYDemv0P7C_swzGpdkCT HSqat.bzYivrQiZx3GrQtrWBhE_W2Xr418EVDa1rRU6Ioa_qrbIAVH1Odt0r SMmaTXp47HPBH0isAD5d.QV_LkRVIg.d0fb5WDJasqc7lrzKXxVLvo.E64oF io1u7dYUdYrfQy4pvHZSorELZpYnnhuL6oOtuXgYl.si5uPEnjn2gTHu27eO r1iu9t_Jwk_MvBelgl7L9aAYdPzpgjUmTYfc5AB4VmgXxmLNE48tDBMopCek IxO0aS9VSIIrVphmgpfYKTGWjXzCIYtIPgsk5FJiC68fMdROo90UoWPEG9aL V0CDUi.Vc3eolTg8hVGgrUU1uM2Bw4I53ToPKZDC_.89.pHUUYn128Oj.KGI ryCQjZIX3yhiwBxvAKRNKZSc51RSN9iEsmoyEzr_J_WcTtB2yP6UwbFFatah nrtYohG308BdRb7CoQml.0l6lxKt7ajYhHhZqNHcrcAagEAoBv1yhIRHv7Hq i6dcrfiiLQSQw1JKAJw6R5WnVzAEJkhgoRLZ.WGsycAzRiFbxQiWhkQ8A9b4 DMcSvbWpFeO_yDz9PtoAiH5HIjFSmll9amZqIFPA.AgVxuYlUha61GFBV8I7 uNTFQ4IXryNYCl.mHIUSkk3vW.9NOwlP3KisH6Yw35PwDmLwVEHHyQBXCcvi Co2HE5g0FtrHBvgjDewITZQVz_rnh_nZXoucp.z2M1Dh0_U.wm8FsMaLan7f 8UqiS6Yagz6Ipyvxv4HHGeYg_kJzStOOT33XUrkGpEpal72djxIZEZ1a2a8o T4SlEZlIjHdiYVrYz7CBh3VOQyfqgujpXb6XFtLGClEF.W09GnjbH4qFQzaX fJ2UNDZdmX5a5Hgx8zWsF2acEi4jR9gW3BGVrRpw6415 Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f50.google.com) (209.85.215.50) by mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Mon, 09 Jan 2017 00:44:20 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f50.google.com with SMTP id m78so64090693lfg.2 for ; Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:44:19 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+07PvXRDOqRT6HGIgwveY9NnxIn15SfWv/CDb22b9F4=; b=jsIBVZaV2dFUho+Bsk0C+sQR7eZZ3hBGO+2F+6PpxdJFdP+8VbvziSBfx+bHnxEvDd nL2p9dRPW3cFlcMUvaE1Tu/I2hoZo6e4O9ibfWDEVX6oxteafpcxAwehZTewgxyqok8U aCQCz/W9EZdZ5SG5rT65IoSN9DO+t/NUpw/mFisC/FmWVqrOUGrr5+XGJBbPGhxExg6R RwWbi0AGxDJlYuma/2CWTN5nVh18yQc6p7hXrQprbVUFPQRcDNztPRT6ZsXG/xnkIuWl nnC8KCP1SWz2v5SVImiBdyOdQxcH4QPkgjFK5CGnEkM0+I5kNyKUQsTHRb9FkhdZogw7 bdiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJFJJqkvish/tp2wmYGLrIa5ls8ZQmxqF+4Q7XFhDwN914uYhccQhhZo1HEZYjeWbwpe4rIKt2FAF48IA== X-Received: by 10.25.16.28 with SMTP id f28mr8483581lfi.89.1483922658312; Sun, 08 Jan 2017 16:44:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Sun, 8 Jan 2017 16:44:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201718215437.601854@D9B5MN3J> References: <201718215437.601854@D9B5MN3J> Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:44:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f8fa4ec476605459eaa71 Subject: Re: [linguo] Vorti pri kolori X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113f8fa4ec476605459eaa71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Robert, Vu esas justa, ke ni analizez la kolori e lia naturo gramatika= la. Unsenceso esas tre grava, ed on dicernez -a de -ea. Yen mikra analizo = di la substantivi, qui esas forsan la plu grava parto di vua problemo. *az= uro:* teknikale, lu esas (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di mineralo (lapis= lazulo) e di materio kemiala. Dyer dicas, ke lu esas nur koloro. Pesch konk= ordas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (LIF) deskonkordas, e dicas ke "azurea" esas la= koloro. Ido-English: azur-oza, *azur-ea*; English-Ido: *azura*, azur-oza, = azur-atra. Substantivo. Me do uzus "azurea". cinabr-ea venas de *cinabro,*= mineralo (kemiala segun la LIF). Substantivo. Me do uzus "cinabrea". gran= at-ea venas de *granato,* mineralo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "granatea". *i= ndigo:* Quante stranja vorto! Segun Dyer e la LIF, lu esas amba materio e k= oloro. En la Franca, lu esas nevariebla (*des plinthes indigo*). Nu, me dev= is serchar en dicionario Franca por komprenar quale on uzez lu en frazo Fra= nca. Ankore, me ne esas certa. Pesch dicas ke lu esas materio (farbo). Me n= e savas quon uzar e quale uzar lu... *karmino:* teknikale, lu esas od esis= (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di materio de qua venas la koloro. La LIF = deskonkordas. Dyer ne esas klara pri la naturo di la substantivo. Pesch des= konkordas. Me ne savas quon uzar... kastan-ea venas de *kastano,* frukto. = Substantivo. Me do uzus "kastanea". lilac-ea venas de *lilaco,* arboreto. = Substantivo. Me do uzus "lilacea". maron-ea venas de *marono,* frukto. Sub= stantivo. Me do uzus "maronea". *nakarata:* Nu! Me judikas, ke to esas ero= ro, ma lu esas substantivo en la LIF, che Pesch e che Dyer (ecepte, e nur e= cepte, en la Ido-Angla, qua semblas a me plu generale korekta kam la Angla-= Ido). "nakarato" semblas a me klare esar koloro, do lu esez adjektivo subst= antivigita, ne substantivo adjektivigita. Me do uzus "nakarata". or-ea ven= as de *oro,* elemento. Substantivo. Me do uzus "orea". oranj-ea venas de *= oranjo,* frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "oranjea". *purpura:* Sama proble= mo kam *nakarato*. Tamen, la etimologio Franca indikas ke purpuro esas subs= tanco de qua venas la koloro. Dyer semblas agir saje: la Angla *purple* esa= s strikte koloro, e la LIF dicas ke "purpuro" esas strikte koloro, ne kolor= izivo! Me uzus sive "purpura" sive "purpurea". roz-ea venas de *rozo,* flo= ro. Substantivo. Me do uzus "rozea". *skarlata:* Sama problemo kam *nakara= to* e *purpuro*. La LIF e Pesch dicas ke "skarlato" esas koloro. Dyer saje = indikas ke la koloro esas do adjektivo de qua la substantivo derivesas. Me = do uzus "skarlata". *ultramaro:* Takaze Dyer povus semblar tre konfuza, ma= la etimologio Franca esas klara: "ultramaro" esas mineralo e farbo, do sub= stantivo. "ultramara" esas uzata por dicar, exemple, "ultramara farbo". "ul= tramarea" esas la koloro. Pesch konkordas (farbo), dum ke la LIF esas nekla= ra (koloro). Me do uzus "ultramarea". *umbro:* Lu esas farbo. Substantivo.= Me do uzus "umbrea". viol-ea venas de *violo,* planto. Substantivo. Me do= uzus "violea". Sume, me kredas ke la dicionario Ido-Angla da Dyer esas la= maxim fidinda por komprenar la kolori, ma nula dicionario esas perfekta ne= k tote klara. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at= 4:54 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Semblas a me ke esas problemo pri ula vorti pri = kolori. Yen la > koloro-vorti quin me trovis en diversa lexiki (inkluzante = blanka e nigra - > kolori honorala?), ma probable esas altri. > > azuro, -e= a > beja > bistra > blanka > blonda > blua > bruna > cinabrea > falva > fla= va > granatea > griza > indigo > izabela > kakia > karmezina > karmezino > = karmino, -ea > kastanea > lilacea > maronea > nakarata > nakarato > nigra >= orea > oranjea > ponsa > purpura > purpuro > reda > rozea > rufa > skarlat= a > skarlato > ultramaro. -a, -ea > umbro (?) > verda > violea > > La probl= emo esas ke la vorti bazala por ula kolori esas, segun nia lexiki, > substa= ntivi. Pluse, en poka kazi, esas trovebla adjektivi e substantivi > nederiv= ita ma kun sama radiko. Yen manko di logiko. > > Se on komencas per adjekti= vo, exemple "reda", la direte o nemediate > derivita substantivo, "redo", r= eprezentas irga kozo o persono qua esas reda. > > Tamen se on komencas per = substantivo, exemple "indigo" o "nakarato", ed on > derivas adjektivo nemed= iate, exemple "nakarata", la senco dil adjektivo > esas gramatike "ta qua e= sas nakarato", ne ta qua havas la koloro nakarato. > Kontraste, redo ne esa= s koloro, ma irga kozo reda. Esas difero inter esar > koloro e havar koloro= ! > > Ni mustas decidar, exemple, kad havar "purpuro, -ea" o "purpura, -(aj= )o". > Me kredas ke omna koloro-vorti mustas esar adjektivi, exemple "reda"= e > "skarlata", ne "reda" e "skarlato". > > Quale opinionas altri? > > Kor= diale, > > Robert C. > > > > > --001a113f8fa4ec476605459eaa71 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert,
Vu esas justa, ke ni analizez = la kolori e lia naturo gramatikala. Unsenceso esas tre grava, ed on dicerne= z -a de -ea.

Yen mikra analizo di la substantivi, = qui esas forsan la plu grava parto di vua problemo.

azuro: teknikale, lu esas (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di min= eralo (lapislazulo) e di materio kemiala. Dyer dicas, ke lu esas nur koloro= . Pesch konkordas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (LIF) deskonkordas, e dicas ke &quo= t;azurea" esas la koloro. Ido-English: azur-oza, azur-ea; Engli= sh-Ido: azura, azur-oza, azur-atra. Substantivo. Me do uzus "az= urea".

cinabr-ea venas de cinabro, mineralo = (kemiala segun la LIF). Substantivo. Me do uzus "cinabrea".
<= br>
granat-ea venas de granato, mineralo. Substantivo. Me = do uzus "granatea".

indigo: Quant= e stranja vorto! Segun Dyer e la LIF, lu esas amba materio e koloro. En la = Franca, lu esas nevariebla (des plinthes indigo). Nu, me devis serch= ar en dicionario Franca por komprenar quale on uzez lu en frazo Franca. Ank= ore, me ne esas certa. Pesch dicas ke lu esas materio (farbo). Me ne savas = quon uzar e quale uzar lu...

karmino:= teknikale, lu esas od esis (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di materio de q= ua venas la koloro. La LIF deskonkordas. Dyer ne esas klara pri la naturo d= i la substantivo. Pesch deskonkordas. Me ne savas quon uzar...
kastan-ea venas de kastano,=C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. M= e do uzus "kastanea".

lilac-ea venas de = lilaco,=C2=A0arboreto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "lilacea".<= /div>

maron-ea venas de marono,=C2=A0frukto. Subs= tantivo. Me do uzus "maronea".

nakara= ta: Nu! Me judikas, ke to esas eroro, ma lu esas substantivo en la LIF,= che Pesch e che Dyer (ecepte, e nur ecepte, en la Ido-Angla, qua semblas a= me plu generale korekta kam la Angla-Ido). "nakarato" semblas a = me klare esar koloro, do lu esez adjektivo substantivigita, ne substantivo = adjektivigita. Me do uzus "nakarata".

or= -ea venas de oro,=C2=A0elemento. Substantivo. Me do uzus "orea&= quot;.

oranj-ea venas de oranjo,=C2=A0frukt= o. Substantivo. Me do uzus "oranjea".

purpura:=C2=A0Sama problemo kam nakarato. Tamen, la etimologio = Franca indikas ke purpuro esas substanco de qua venas la koloro. Dyer sembl= as agir saje: la Angla purple=C2=A0esas strikte koloro, e la LIF dic= as ke "purpuro" esas strikte koloro, ne kolorizivo! Me uzus sive = "purpura" sive "purpurea".

roz= -ea venas de rozo,=C2=A0floro. Suubstantivo. Me do uzus "rozea&q= uot;.

skarlata:=C2=A0Sama problemo kam n= akarato=C2=A0e purpuro. La LIF e Pesch dicas ke "skarlato&q= uot; esas koloro. Dyer saje indikas ke la koloro esas do adjektivo de qua l= a substantivo derivesas. Me do uzus "skarlata".

ultramaro:=C2=A0Takaze Dyer povus semblar tre konfuza, ma la= etimologio Franca esas klara: "ultramaro" esas mineralo e farbo,= do substantivo. "ultramara" esas uzata por dicar, exemple, "= ;ultramara farbo". "ultramarea" esas la koloro. Pesch konkor= das (farbo), dum ke la LIF esas neklara (koloro). Me do uzus "ultramar= ea".

umbro:=C2=A0Lu esas farbo. Substa= ntivo. Me do uzus "umbrea".

viol-ea vena= s de violo,=C2=A0planto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "violea".=

Sume, me kredas ke la dicionario Ido-Angla da Dye= r esas la maxim fidinda por komprenar la kolori, ma nula dicionario esas pe= rfekta nek tote klara.

Kun kordiala saluti,
<= div>Gilles-Philippe

On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Semblas a me ke esas problemo pri= ula vorti pri kolori. Yen la koloro-vorti quin me trovis en diversa lexiki= (inkluzante blanka e nigra - kolori honorala?), ma probable esas altri.
=C2=A0
azuro, -ea
beja
bistra<
blanka
blonda<= /div>
blua=
bruna
cinabrea
falva
flava
granatea
griza
<= div>indigo
i= zabela
kakia
karmezina
karmezino
karmino, -ea
kastanea
li= lacea
maronea
nakarata
nakarato
nigra
orea
oranjea=
pon= sa
purpura
purpuro
reda
rozea
rufa
skarlata
=
skarlato
ultramaro. -a, -ea
umbro (?)
verda
violea
=C2= =A0
= La problemo esas ke la vorti bazala por ula kolori esas, segun nia lexiki, = substantivi. Pluse, en poka kazi, esas trovebla adjektivi e substantivi ned= erivita ma kun sama radiko. Yen manko di logiko.
=C2=A0
Se on= komencas per adjektivo, exemple "reda", la direte o nemediate de= rivita substantivo, "redo", reprezentas irga kozo o persono qua e= sas reda.
=C2=A0
Tamen se on komencas per substantivo, exempl= e "indigo" o "nakarato", ed on derivas adjektivo nemedi= ate, exemple "nakarata", la senco dil adjektivo esas gramatike &q= uot;ta qua esas nakarato", ne ta qua havas la koloro nakarato. Kontras= te, redo ne esas koloro, ma irga kozo reda. Esas difero inter esar koloro e= havar koloro!
=C2=A0
Ni mustas decidar, exemple, kad havar &= quot;purpuro, -ea" o "purpura, -(aj)o". Me kredas ke omna ko= loro-vorti mustas esar adjektivi, exemple "reda" e "skarlata= ", ne "reda" e "skarlato".
=C2= =A0
= Quale opinionas altri?
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
=C2= =A0
= Robert C.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=

--001a113f8fa4ec476605459eaa71-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4728 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 16269 invoked by uid 102); 9 Jan 2017 18:21:33 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2017 18:21:33 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 28294 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2017 18:21:33 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 9 Jan 2017 18:21:33 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: _uLjeTQWLDv86E.xzYv8quGS_8K.6LCHXjPIArpJe5Hcdn0d Mteptg9JD5hn9eKKeVGZjxCOh0J5QRoAAbju2nrRE805WSJHua2KUe9yY3At T3j6J4kYJiXDvX7Ar.mBlCIs10B3tQ8HZ.ezPvI9JTUyxjt6GUyfPLcZuZbo N2fhA17acsAmLZbmgIPNPQTMP0HByyzK1wnO2GINMPuE1wHesO49_nbMP_YC M1ht2myt.ePDYbOSatC_1Zjq5CspR2HkiHCAKaqSKibw1r9ALqybc7jzqbIh YMfdqsQ3DqbHUwrXUPHGi7ZI_q6qdGYgNrDP0UwlBPGQJ.E4F4784RRAmeEG BLj5hOw.wp8wN6b2.noirkPqItTMss6MTLOHKC2hsjPnRKVMVmmfdwu5qHsr dPjJeWJ0VURqEvMkABDkqODYGwyS47_PDaDSJcKs1I60uLWk.WgrOIGuDSKQ gCJrvG3ikH8_uG7xCAFTHMuxkjdFngHON4R6LTzfm31bF1Nou_N8CFo7mEJG UXSV5e4KB65K6ujac2nlF2Lm4kKkQccnqK0gTkC0njqaKQF0Ru2EuEst16gU 0LMBqYvst5qdOK6qK4ZEvwNEtfEWgm8mOmL0De03nt2QgYHKf4xaMEFcM3zN .HQFdvbM21kefZfKqpfOgbcmpJiS_BUI_apTuRBhrQmid5i2qkkymUJj_d5a hwR7UnOqhx8F3FWfpbuCy_d70VfdJSw34LF.Dxf.rti3ykz26Bgv_c5qUWGM vE8TzELXr1BQVqY9p46t9xbaYWnijIpFWiRMm.kP76u01Cn8AUViKSYDEOOf CQW8mEbYm1244lbJkVb55IAr0PusR44X6PJ.ruFXj6QClmIZCsVln_1648.1 0SDtk_TRZVVgCnFWX1iIJMkanp74Pgdm6vMkskPWR5AG784IAk0h0BQaJTVI MjcYc4Ujs2p0_YIsuOQG0dT5qVZOmpv1YDjBJyITXJj_90NzD_I2h5QYBSX9 cY5k0N_lcuUy.JjCpW1imjoXBmX5ZpeG1fPCqUnmDZviQyU9wUcewUzegZvx _9Ppoa6_jjft3YuZCQrlV2mkUncXJJFmWDo1aqajgyL56tquoCUMnvdkPNzg gkCEUYg1Dtc46NhliWH7CVNvuiRJK31KSg-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout04.plus.net) (212.159.14.19) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Mon, 09 Jan 2017 18:21:33 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([87.114.236.109]) by avasout04 with smtp id WJMW1u0052NJ1Br01JMX9P; Mon, 09 Jan 2017 18:21:31 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Groywg9C c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=R3C5sIjcGfl1hIQAfyBlZQ==:117 a=R3C5sIjcGfl1hIQAfyBlZQ==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=6mnm7gIjAAAA:8 a=qV0mfD4mAAAA:8 a=zMKMZf9bEU_iwZLxtWoA:9 a=baPQRs76HkMLUVrf:21 a=R3zg3D9zw1r9bH7I:21 a=UXtqZb4Df59NsEdA:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 a=KfCPT_WOMwHMG_Iid1qq:22 a=mnVZ7iNJyew7AB3q5ROZ:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 18:21:36 GMT Message-ID: <201719182136.474905@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [linguo] Vorti pri kolori X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C."
Kara Gilles-Philippe,
 
Damko pro co. Vu indikas vua preferi, ube posibla. La problemo esas, koncize (1) en ula kazi la libri ofras nelogike nur substantivo por koloro (exemple Ido-Franca, Ido-Hispana e Pesch por "skarlato"), sen indikar qua adjektivo koncernas ta koloro; (2) ke la vortlibri diferas (Ido-Germana e Dyer havas "skarlata" ma Dyer esas netipe neklara). Quale Idista skriptisti devas agar? Quale kompilanti di nova lexiki devas agar?
 
Ne esus desfacila decidar, exemple, ke "skarlat-" esez adjektivala. Lexiki imprimita nur chere ri-imprimesus, ma lexiki elektronikala povas tre chipe esar emendata. ULI devas facar decidi ...
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:44:17 -0500: 
Kara Robert,
Vu esas justa, ke ni analizez la kolori e lia naturo gramatikala. Unsenceso esas tre grava, ed on dicernez -a de -ea.


Yen mikra analizo di la substantivi, qui esas forsan la plu grava parto di vua problemo.

azuro: teknikale, lu esas (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di mineralo (lapislazulo) e di materio kemiala. Dyer dicas, ke lu esas nur koloro. Pesch konkordas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (LIF) deskonkordas, e dicas ke "azurea" esas la koloro. Ido-English: azur-oza, azur-ea; English-Ido: azura, azur-oza, azur-atra. Substantivo. Me do uzus "azurea".


cinabr-ea venas de cinabro, mineralo (kemiala segun la LIF). Substantivo. Me do uzus "cinabrea".


granat-ea venas de granato, mineralo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "granatea".


indigo: Quante stranja vorto! Segun Dyer e la LIF, lu esas amba materio e koloro. En la Franca, lu esas nevariebla (des plinthes indigo). Nu, me devis serchar en dicionario Franca por komprenar quale on uzez lu en frazo Franca. Ankore, me ne esas certa. Pesch dicas ke lu esas materio (farbo). Me ne savas quon uzar e quale uzar lu...


karmino: teknikale, lu esas od esis (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di materio de qua venas la koloro. La LIF deskonkordas. Dyer ne esas klara pri la naturo di la substantivo. Pesch deskonkordas. Me ne savas quon uzar...


kastan-ea venas de kastano, frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "kastanea".


lilac-ea venas de lilaco, arboreto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "lilacea".


maron-ea venas de marono, frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "maronea".


nakarata: Nu! Me judikas, ke to esas eroro, ma lu esas substantivo en la LIF, che Pesch e che Dyer (ecepte, e nur ecepte, en la Ido-Angla, qua semblas a me plu generale korekta kam la Angla-Ido). "nakarato" semblas a me klare esar koloro, do lu esez adjektivo substantivigita, ne substantivo adjektivigita. Me do uzus "nakarata".


or-ea venas de oro, elemento. Substantivo. Me do uzus "orea".


oranj-ea venas de oranjo, frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "oranjea".


purpura: Sama problemo kam nakarato. Tamen, la etimologio Franca indikas ke purpuro esas substanco de qua venas la koloro. Dyer semblas agir saje: la Angla purple esas strikte koloro, e la LIF dicas ke "purpuro" esas strikte koloro, ne kolorizivo! Me uzus sive "purpura" sive "purpurea".


roz-ea venas de rozo, floro. Substantivo. Me do uzus "rozea".


skarlata: Sama problemo kam nakarato e purpuro. La LIF e Pesch dicas ke "skarlato" esas koloro. Dyer saje indikas ke la koloro esas do adjektivo de qua la substantivo derivesas. Me do uzus "skarlata".


ultramaro: Takaze Dyer povus semblar tre konfuza, ma la etimologio Franca esas klara: "ultramaro" esas mineralo e farbo, do substantivo. "ultramara" esas uzata por dicar, exemple, "ultramara farbo". "ultramarea" esas la koloro. Pesch konkordas (farbo), dum ke la LIF esas neklara (koloro). Me do uzus "ultramarea".


umbro: Lu esas farbo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "umbrea".


viol-ea venas de violo, planto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "violea".


Sume, me kredas ke la dicionario Ido-Angla da Dyer esas la maxim fidinda por komprenar la kolori, ma nula dicionario esas perfekta nek tote klara.


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 
Semblas a me ke esas problemo pri ula vorti pri kolori. Yen la koloro-vorti quin me trovis en diversa lexiki (inkluzante blanka e nigra - kolori honorala?), ma probable esas altri.
 
azuro, -ea
beja
bistra
blanka
blonda
blua
bruna
cinabrea
falva
flava
granatea
griza
indigo
izabela
kakia
karmezina
karmezino
karmino, -ea
kastanea
lilacea
maronea
nakarata
nakarato
nigra
orea
oranjea
ponsa
purpura
purpuro
reda
rozea
rufa
skarlata
skarlato
ultramaro. -a, -ea
umbro (?)
verda
violea
 
La problemo esas ke la vorti bazala por ula kolori esas, segun nia lexiki, substantivi. Pluse, en poka kazi, esas trovebla adjektivi e substantivi nederivita ma kun sama radiko. Yen manko di logiko.
 
Se on komencas per adjektivo, exemple "reda", la direte o nemediate derivita substantivo, "redo", reprezentas irga kozo o persono qua esas reda.
 
Tamen se on komencas per substantivo, exemple "indigo" o "nakarato", ed on derivas adjektivo nemediate, exemple "nakarata", la senco dil adjektivo esas gramatike "ta qua esas nakarato", ne ta qua havas la koloro nakarato. Kontraste, redo ne esas koloro, ma irga kozo reda. Esas difero inter esar koloro e havar koloro!
 
Ni mustas decidar, exemple, kad havar "purpuro, -ea" o "purpura, -(aj)o". Me kredas ke omna koloro-vorti mustas esar adjektivi, exemple "reda" e "skarlata", ne "reda" e "skarlato".
 
Quale opinionas altri?
 
Kordiale,
 
Robert C.
 
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Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro= ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defini esas trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso= .
 
aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pinselo?
aktina (B)
alegreto (AH) od alegr-e= to (R)?
alkado (P) > alkaldo
alkaraneo (B)
ameboccita (B). amebocito?
analitika (HP). ana= litik-ala?
Andoro (G). Andora
api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo.
aplanatik= a (P)
apokromatra (B). apokromata?
arterito (P). arteriito?
astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiz= iko?
astroida (P)
atik-ismo (G). atikajo?
autogamo (B). autogama?
autokrona (B). autokroma?=
bek= afigo (P). bekafiko?
bernaklo-muslo (D).
Botna (H). Botnia?
boyardo (P). boyaro?=
bromuro (H= ). bromido?
centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!)
centrolecito (P)
<= div>ciliaro (P); cilia= ra (JH)
cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika (DFGJH)
decidua (P: bot.). deciduo= (DFR: anat.?)
deflegmar (ARHP). Senco?
deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D).
=
devenar (FJHG). = de-venar?
 
Fonti:
A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A
B =3D Lex= iko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B
F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon
=
G =3D lexiko Ido= -Germana da Feder & Schneeberger<
H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana
J =3D plu tarda lexik= o Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detaili)
P =3D dicionario da Pesch
R =3D Rap= orto da Roze
 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4730 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 57744 invoked by uid 102); 10 Jan 2017 00:35:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m17.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2017 00:35:53 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 10985 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2017 00:35:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2017 00:35:53 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: wdyBttQWLDtf3.w_5U5iOlaHF2PkrZ.zSG7628Kb6TDQQkn8 llt_NKEUIv3OxdYgevtb19gxPtCs1_pMhEM.7AQidQzuUIKnb9pq9pC3dvKY DQ587jLVMuyqaT0tiG5Q3yKl5Mpe.S3yAY2u66S5_nG7CNpTrwLFKWGx0Ebo 6rtKzlXmX2VRgNrw8MW39m0_MiMFT1_U4C3dDU8JD7WG8sYibzRj2.Bt990D r9U8Lw3V_iSJQchgIDUyaCytGlBpUZh2HMXYRiZGEvB_FjYCzrn.cL6JFxrV 8vXWxHtioBRjEYgF6exAfeQCIjYfWit5Gt9pVVCbmx9NRy4YboVb1_Ml6JWI _JF4vpv_UWPXPo7hw5TKm756vgsTFgm4oyZfEGa91b17ecIksBVu.4.fZmMI kSSUeu3z3I.9vjRXr.BVoCQvkuVmHR_M_KFibKOg_9rMcnIqC.8POGi3DSOh GzMbE56QVdC5DZ92.nxKJA9h_Oz3R7eoipq6xIpnM6k7w8zNzoneKHpK2CHK mk0VyBoYez6QMOux4hIy98z.c.LsZUe6zjtlTvVem0hRIY_2q0xG00DbuDiG jS8QLNeCTJb6u1JrdXJmlc.ukBbwFJvcoj7dOH.ZSW3Eao8GL.tSQpNl5rQh AqZ3EX_6f_05mLM0ecQzAkZDBKr30jEeYzuCI60Lr4U2dJQFNIrQZ.RDpy8h fzgy5lft7N7P1C73TpnZFkdv6pr_cYgnlImf6OOeX6Dt82NiWj5cXfPiUQdB MbZy0POFpWrnHzFUVCzjy9.lY3kwZNSi_F.j8J4HYUYta3oFBvXiBhT.mqLF fgyuyJdC9HP7HFCwOFKmv73eWQCTtoJZpcphPB6LhPThu3GB3NgSOQTsJzOj _GAnBMOlJOLYVMimnM5kG0e5RQdZQlbEJ3aYeCB0q6v279M2FKw.bDjLBuuN 5kktlvKic6sRIBD_Z8j_N_G1AXa6xSICqs0pWJMnvNbpzdDF1kLyQhem9iT9 NkTz3OqH3WXq9Dpa7_VVHcpw3OOkClIavCsCu2dxNLfledAgxox7GQvGvniv U4kfoTWwQT205MUtpnpnruw7CxR2z14pB5qhcaqWgHr1fCqnwvxVcQua0qeJ m00M0c7IMLAUfBnt3gPe77nPyYevM_AEKG_5UUGgVZExaf7sk9mv_MaHkY8w WaTleMRiTHhI8BAgNDY75zwskUMSu46cbfHjR.EWqQ07_lxzBxAJzyUoux4i oBwSH_i43qAyxCNXzvzeObZhELXeUdp.sJCA5r3nybD3mW2HPG0tLhN1k8hA 7XfddNlPttvtpijY.EdMcJmHdMAROIKVN9woVdXqTOUUpzeX7Tln56ZJO9yz mcQLY3qXAbjJb0Irf5mJrZ2kxwXNXpZjl_wNVTqWKGltlPOP5J5iwxsmx4O4 jL8l8rm6D20nY31_DUJSjMW3Djk1Xjf4tVzEZT8YCeYPAkW5k6rq9EwgKhu_ QXr3kab.yCmYyg-- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f50.google.com) (209.85.215.50) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 10 Jan 2017 00:35:53 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f50.google.com with SMTP id k86so105565071lfi.0 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:35:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=hhxrjJCLsy8+9P5Nvhoh2uKMc5LkQfVYgHy4TG2Nm64=; b=nN5gL7LgWtPlFbZbdXhuZoHgZXV8YAFA/4fLz7NpGLLhWH5oiRjYG3AIIe/OrsDYIm WWGreGO5C1Z1kIguy5VGEiHezTqfSMRUGsqW+Sqqbs7yXEnKRfUONGZUtv15nF3AQw5w +r6STTkQKeMZ/Vaa0inwKFK4c70qZ5X9U43ZN5ouYaQLsred9g5Mx5oP7mvqDCw045Qy /V2LPZkbXeTT916ppg7WFxc/5kzIkumwvXq1Qy/sMwWhXyOjkmwwWyIveGu8MqWhol82 7vQVozWLhH92PqJYJcuH7T1bqaj9aoz9Mu+GGeGSL1/u95/ANPWZAWEeKfV5BhwlgrLW RH9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJC6u8mYTH6OaWxVTeZ4AO6hlhg71qNopVaAGZ/ZvoWg/HILawOeQN7mQWrzTtJWd7wXxkwiHu4RM81cw== X-Received: by 10.46.7.1 with SMTP id 1mr123381ljh.76.1484008551859; Mon, 09 Jan 2017 16:35:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2017 16:35:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201719182136.474905@D9B5MN3J> References: <201719182136.474905@D9B5MN3J> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 19:35:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec65293cc120545b2aa5f Subject: Re: [linguo] Vorti pri kolori X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec65293cc120545b2aa5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Robert, Danko pro la respondo. Mea antea mesajo ne havis klara explik= o pri la origino di ula vorti. Nun me probez posibla teorio. Hipotezo: la = kolori venas de Esperanto e, precipue, de la Fundamento da Zamenhof. Mater= ii: ReVo, la Reta Vorto (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/); Vocabulaire Ido= -Fran=C3=A7ais (http://idolinguo.org.uk//idfr.htm). Metodo: analizar la rad= iki di Esperanto e komparar kun ti di la vortaro Ido-Franca. Observar se la= fini di la radiki (-a o -o) esas la sama. Probo: [Radiko di Ido: radiko d= i Esperanto] La radiki stelizita venas de la Fundamento. azur-o: lazur/o (= 1-a Oficiala Aldono). bej-a: tro nova vorto, ne existas oficala vorto en Es= peranto. bistr-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis amba= "bistr/o" e "bistr/a". blank-a: *blank/a. blond-a: *blond/a. blu-a: *blu/a= . brun-a: *brun/a. cinabr-o: *cinabr/o. falv-a: ne existas oficala vorto en= Esperanto. flav-a: *flav/a. granat-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperant= o. La PV (1934) sugestas "grenat/o". griz-a: *griz/a. indig-o: indig/o (4-a= Oficiala Aldono). izabel-a: me ne trovis equivalanto. kaki-a: me ne trovis= equivalento. karmezin-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof u= zis "karmezin/o". karmin-o: *karmin/o. kastan-o: *ka=C5=9Dtan/o. lilac-o: *= siring/o. maron-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis "ma= ron/o". nakarat-o: me ne trovis equivalanto. nigr-a: *nigr/a. or-o: *or/o. = oranj-o: *oran=C4=9D/o. pons-a: *punc/a. purpur-o: *purpur/o. red-a: *ru=C4= =9D/a. roz-o: *roz/o. ruf-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. La PIV = di 1970 sugestas "ruf/a". skarlat-o: *skarlat/o. ultramar-o: ne existas ofi= cala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis "ultramar/o". umbr-o: me ne trovis e= quivalanto. verd-a: *verd/a. viol-o: *viol/o. Remarki: 1-me Omna adjektivi= en Esperanto esas adjektivi en Ido; 2-me Omna substantivi en Esperanto esa= s substantivi en Ido; 3-me La radiki di Esperanto venas precipue (59%) de l= a Fundamento. Konkluzo: Semblas, sive ke Ido kopiis la vortofino di Espera= nto, sive ke amba lingui havas la sama origino o la sama logiko. Me ne esas= certa ka to validigas mea hipotezo. Pri vua mesajo: Me kredas ke ni bezo= nas nula chanjo, ni nur bezonas kompreno. Se on komprenus la defino di la r= adiki, tale on povus facile derivar li. To esas la sama logiko kam ta di "e= utanaziar", "nostalgiar", e.c. La sufixo -ea uzesas nur kande la radiko ne= expresas koloro. Pro to, on uzas "niv-ea" vice "niva", "oranj-ea" vice "or= anja", "viol-ea" vice "viola", e.c. Nu, per ta fakto, e per la Vocabulaire= Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais, on povas deduktar co: "azuro" ne expresas koloro. "cina= bro" ne expresas koloro. "oro" ne expresas koloro. "purpuro" ne expresas ko= loro. "violo" ne expresas koloro. Se "purpuro" ne expresas koloro, nu, quo= n lu expresas? Farbo. Yes, "purpuro" semblas esar farbo, ma la Vocabulair= e Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais naive skribas "koloro" sen suciar pri la difero inter s= ento e materio! Tamen la uzo di "purpur.e.a" vice "purpur.a" informas pri l= a naturo di la vorto. Forsan Dyer uzis simila vortaro e facis eroro pro to= ? Forsan? Pri "skarlato", la defino da Dyer dicas ke lu esas fardo, ne kol= oro. Do "skarlat-ea" esus bona. Ma Dyer deskonkordas. Kun kordiala saluti= , Gilles-Philippe On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 1:21 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.m= e.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Kara Gilles= -Philippe, > > Damko pro co. Vu indikas vua preferi, ube posibla. La proble= mo esas, > koncize (1) en ula kazi la libri ofras nelogike nur substantivo = por koloro > (exemple Ido-Franca, Ido-Hispana e Pesch por "skarlato"), sen = indikar qua > adjektivo koncernas ta koloro; (2) ke la vortlibri diferas (I= do-Germana e > Dyer havas "skarlata" ma Dyer esas netipe neklara). Quale Id= ista skriptisti > devas agar? Quale kompilanti di nova lexiki devas agar? >= > Ne esus desfacila decidar, exemple, ke "skarlat-" esez adjektivala. Lexi= ki > imprimita nur chere ri-imprimesus, ma lexiki elektronikala povas tre c= hipe > esar emendata. ULI devas facar decidi ... > > Kordiale, > Robert C. = > > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sun, 8 Jan 2= 017 > 19:44:17 -0500: > Kara Robert, > Vu esas justa, ke ni analizez la kol= ori e lia naturo gramatikala. > Unsenceso esas tre grava, ed on dicernez -a= de -ea. > > > Yen mikra analizo di la substantivi, qui esas forsan la plu = grava parto di > vua problemo. > > *azuro:* teknikale, lu esas (adminime en= la Franca) la nomo di mineralo > (lapislazulo) e di materio kemiala. Dyer = dicas, ke lu esas nur koloro. > Pesch konkordas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (LIF)= deskonkordas, e dicas ke > "azurea" esas la koloro. Ido-English: azur-oza,= * azur-ea*; English-Ido:* > azura*, azur-oza, azur-atra. Substantivo. Me do= uzus "azurea". > > > cinabr-ea venas de* cinabro,* mineralo (kemiala segun= la LIF). > Substantivo. Me do uzus "cinabrea". > > > granat-ea venas de* g= ranato,* mineralo. Substantivo. Me do uzus > "granatea". > > > *indigo:* Qu= ante stranja vorto! Segun Dyer e la LIF, lu esas amba materio > e koloro. E= n la Franca, lu esas nevariebla (*des plinthes indigo*). Nu, > me devis ser= char en dicionario Franca por komprenar quale on uzez lu en > frazo Franca.= Ankore, me ne esas certa. Pesch dicas ke lu esas materio > (farbo). Me ne = savas quon uzar e quale uzar lu... > > > *karmino:* teknikale, lu esas od e= sis (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di > materio de qua venas la koloro. La= LIF deskonkordas. Dyer ne esas klara pri > la naturo di la substantivo. Pe= sch deskonkordas. Me ne savas quon uzar... > > > kastan-ea venas de* kastan= o,* frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "kastanea". > > > lilac-ea venas de* li= laco,* arboreto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "lilacea". > > > maron-ea venas de= * marono,* frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "maronea". > > > *nakarata:* Nu!= Me judikas, ke to esas eroro, ma lu esas substantivo en > la LIF, che Pesc= h e che Dyer (ecepte, e nur ecepte, en la Ido-Angla, qua > semblas a me plu= generale korekta kam la Angla-Ido). "nakarato" semblas a > me klare esar k= oloro, do lu esez adjektivo substantivigita, ne substantivo > adjektivigita= . Me do uzus "nakarata". > > > or-ea venas de* oro,* elemento. Substantivo.= Me do uzus "orea". > > > oranj-ea venas de* oranjo,* frukto. Substantivo. = Me do uzus "oranjea". > > > *purpura:* Sama problemo kam* nakarato*. Tamen,= la etimologio Franca > indikas ke purpuro esas substanco de qua venas la k= oloro. Dyer semblas agir > saje: la Angla* purple* esas strikte koloro, e l= a LIF dicas ke "purpuro" > esas strikte koloro, ne kolorizivo! Me uzus sive= "purpura" sive "purpurea". > > > roz-ea venas de* rozo,* floro. Substantiv= o. Me do uzus "rozea". > > > *skarlata:* Sama problemo kam* nakarato* e* pu= rpuro*. La LIF e Pesch > dicas ke "skarlato" esas koloro. Dyer saje indikas= ke la koloro esas do > adjektivo de qua la substantivo derivesas. Me do uz= us "skarlata". > > > *ultramaro:* Takaze Dyer povus semblar tre konfuza, ma= la etimologio > Franca esas klara: "ultramaro" esas mineralo e farbo, do s= ubstantivo. > "ultramara" esas uzata por dicar, exemple, "ultramara farbo".= "ultramarea" > esas la koloro. Pesch konkordas (farbo), dum ke la LIF esas= neklara > (koloro). Me do uzus "ultramarea". > > > *umbro:* Lu esas farbo.= Substantivo. Me do uzus "umbrea". > > > viol-ea venas de* violo,* planto. = Substantivo. Me do uzus "violea". > > > Sume, me kredas ke la dicionario Id= o-Angla da Dyer esas la maxim fidinda > por komprenar la kolori, ma nula di= cionario esas perfekta nek tote klara. > > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-= Philippe > > > On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.= me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > > Semblas a me= ke esas problemo pri ula vorti pri kolori. Yen la > koloro-vorti quin me t= rovis en diversa lexiki (inkluzante blanka e nigra - > kolori honorala?), m= a probable esas altri. > > azuro, -ea > beja > bistra > blanka > blonda > b= lua > bruna > cinabrea > falva > flava > granatea > griza > indigo > izabel= a > kakia > karmezina > karmezino > karmino, -ea > kastanea > lilacea > mar= onea > nakarata > nakarato > nigra > orea > oranjea > ponsa > purpura > pur= puro > reda > rozea > rufa > skarlata > skarlato > ultramaro. -a, -ea > umb= ro (?) > verda > violea > > La problemo esas ke la vorti bazala por ula kol= ori esas, segun nia lexiki, > substantivi. Pluse, en poka kazi, esas troveb= la adjektivi e substantivi > nederivita ma kun sama radiko. Yen manko di lo= giko. > > Se on komencas per adjektivo, exemple "reda", la direte o nemedia= te > derivita substantivo, "redo", reprezentas irga kozo o persono qua esas= reda. > > Tamen se on komencas per substantivo, exemple "indigo" o "nakara= to", ed on > derivas adjektivo nemediate, exemple "nakarata", la senco dil = adjektivo > esas gramatike "ta qua esas nakarato", ne ta qua havas la kolor= o nakarato. > Kontraste, redo ne esas koloro, ma irga kozo reda. Esas difer= o inter esar > koloro e havar koloro! > > Ni mustas decidar, exemple, kad h= avar "purpuro, -ea" o "purpura, -(aj)o". > Me kredas ke omna koloro-vorti m= ustas esar adjektivi, exemple "reda" e > "skarlata", ne "reda" e "skarlato"= . > > Quale opinionas altri? > > Kordiale, > > Robert C. > > > > --f403045ec65293cc120545b2aa5f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert,
Danko pro la respondo.

Mea antea mesajo ne havis klara expliko pri la origino di ula vorti.= Nun me probez posibla teorio.

Hipotezo: la kolori= venas de Esperanto e, precipue, de la Fundamento da Zamenhof.
Materii: ReVo, la Reta Vorto (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/); Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3= =A7ais (http://idolinguo.org.u= k/idfr.htm).

Metodo: analizar la radiki di Esp= eranto e komparar kun ti di la vortaro Ido-Franca. Observar se la fini di l= a radiki (-a o -o) esas la sama.

Probo:
= [Radiko di Ido: radiko di Esperanto]
La radiki stelizita venas de= la Fundamento.

azur-o: lazur/o (1-a Oficiala Aldo= no).
bej-a: tro nova vorto, ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto= .
bistr-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis a= mba "bistr/o" e "bistr/a".
blank-a: *blank/a.=
blond-a: *blond/a.
blu-a: *blu/a.
brun-a: *b= run/a.
cinabr-o: *cinabr/o.
falv-a: ne existas oficala = vorto en Esperanto.
flav-a: *flav/a.
granat-o: ne exist= as oficala vorto en Esperanto. La PV (1934) sugestas "grenat/o".<= /div>
griz-a: *griz/a.
indig-o: indig/o (4-a Oficiala Al= dono).
izabel-a: me ne trovis equivalanto.
kaki-a: me n= e trovis equivalento.
karmezin-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esp= eranto. Zamenhof uzis "karmezin/o".
karmin-o: *karmin/o= .
kastan-o: *ka=C5=9Dtan/o.
lilac-o: *siring/o.
maron-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis "maro= n/o".
nakarat-o: me ne trovis equivalanto.
nigr-a:= *nigr/a.
or-o: *or/o.
oranj-o: *oran=C4=9D/o.
pons-a: *punc/a.
purpur-o: *purpur/o.
red-a: *ru=C4= =9D/a.
roz-o: *roz/o.
ruf-a: ne existas oficala vorto e= n Esperanto. La PIV di 1970 sugestas "ruf/a".
skarlat-o= : *skarlat/o.
ultramar-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. = Zamenhof uzis "ultramar/o".
umbr-o: me ne trovis equiva= lanto.
verd-a: *verd/a.
viol-o: *viol/o.

Remarki:
1-me Omna adjektivi en Esperanto esas a= djektivi en Ido;
2-me Omna substantivi en Esperanto esas substant= ivi en Ido;
3-me La radiki di Esperanto venas precipue (59%) de l= a Fundamento.

Konkluzo: Semblas, sive ke Ido kopii= s la vortofino di Esperanto, sive ke amba lingui havas la sama origino o la= sama logiko. Me ne esas certa ka to validigas mea hipotezo.

=
Pri vua mesajo:

Me kredas ke ni bezonas= nula chanjo, ni nur bezonas kompreno. Se on komprenus la defino di la radi= ki, tale on povus facile derivar li. To esas la sama logiko kam ta di "= ;eutanaziar", "nostalgiar", e.c.

La= sufixo -ea uzesas nur kande la radiko ne expresas koloro. Pro to, on uzas = "niv-ea" vice "niva", "oranj-ea" vice "o= ranja", "viol-ea" vice "viola", e.c.
Nu, per ta fakto, e per la Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais, on po= vas deduktar co:
"azuro" ne expresas koloro.
= "cinabro" ne expresas koloro.
"oro" ne expres= as koloro.
"purpuro" ne expresas koloro.
&quo= t;violo" ne expresas koloro.

Se "purpuro= " ne expresas koloro, nu, quon lu expresas?

F= arbo.

Yes, "purpuro" semblas esar farbo,= ma la Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais naive skribas "koloro" sen s= uciar pri la difero inter sento e materio! Tamen la uzo di "purpur.e.a= " vice "purpur.a" informas pri la naturo di la vorto.
<= div>
Forsan Dyer uzis simila vortaro e facis eroro pro to? Fo= rsan?

Pri "skarlato", la defino da Dyer = dicas ke lu esas fardo, ne koloro. Do "skarlat-ea" esus bona.

Ma Dyer deskonkordas.

Kun ko= rdiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 1:21 PM, 'Rob= ert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
=

=

Kara Gilles-Philippe,
=
=C2=A0
Damko pro co. Vu indi= kas vua preferi, ube posibla. La problemo esas, koncize (1) en ula kazi la = libri ofras nelogike nur substantivo por koloro (exemple Ido-Franca, Ido-Hi= spana e Pesch por "skarlato"), sen indikar qua adjektivo koncerna= s ta koloro; (2) ke la vortlibri diferas (Ido-Germana e Dyer havas "sk= arlata" ma Dyer esas netipe neklara). Quale Idista skriptisti devas ag= ar? Quale kompilanti di nova lexiki devas agar?
=C2=A0
Ne esus desfacila decidar, exemple,= ke "skarlat-" esez adjektivala. Lexiki imprimita nur chere ri-im= primesus, ma lexiki elektronikala povas tre chipe esar emendata. ULI devas = facar decidi ...
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert= C.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [l= inguolisto] - Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:44:17 -0500:=C2=A0
Kara Robert,
Vu esas justa, ke ni analizez la kolori e lia na= turo gramatikala. Unsenceso esas tre grava, ed on dicernez -a de -ea.


Yen mikra analizo di la substantivi, qui esas forsan la= plu grava parto di vua problemo.

azuro: teknikale, lu es= as (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di mineralo (lapislazulo) e di materio k= emiala. Dyer dicas, ke lu esas nur koloro. Pesch konkordas. La Lexiko Ido-F= ranca (LIF) deskonkordas, e dicas ke "azurea" esas la koloro. Ido= -English: azur-oza, azur-ea; Engllish-Ido: azura, azur-oza, az= ur-atra. Substantivo. Me do uzus "azurea".


=
cinabr-ea venas de cinabro, mineralo (kemiala segun la LIF). Substa= ntivo. Me do uzus "cinabrea".


granat-ea ve= nas de granato, mineralo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "granatea&quo= t;.


indigo: Quante stranja vorto! Segun Dyer = e la LIF, lu esas amba materio e koloro. En la Franca, lu esas nevariebla (= des plinthes indigo). Nu, me devis serchar en dicionario Franca por = komprenar quale on uzez lu en frazo Franca. Ankore, me ne esas certa. Pesch= dicas ke lu esas materio (farbo). Me ne savas quon uzar e quale uzar lu...=


karmino: teknikale, lu esas od esis (adminim= e en la Franca) la nomo di materio de qua venas la koloro. La LIF deskonkor= das. Dyer ne esas klara pri la naturo di la substantivo. Pesch deskonkordas= . Me ne savas quon uzar...


kastan-ea venas de kas= tano,=C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "kastanea".=


lilac-ea venas de lilaco,=C2=A0arboreto. Substantiv= o. Me do uzus "lilacea".


maron-ea venas d= e marono,=C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "maronea".<= /span>


nakarata: Nu! Me judikas, ke to esas eroro, m= a lu esas substantivo en la LIF, che Pesch e che Dyer (ecepte, e nur ecepte= , en la Ido-Angla, qua semblas a me plu generale korekta kam la Angla-Ido).= "nakarato" semblas a me klare esar koloro, do lu esez adjektivo = substantivigita, ne substantivo adjektivigita. Me do uzus "nakarata&qu= ot;.


or-ea venas de oro,=C2=A0elemento. Subst= antivo. Me do uzus "orea".


oranj-ea venas = de oranjo,=C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "oranjea".=


purpura:=C2=A0Sama problemo kam nakarato<= /b>. Tamen, la etimologio Franca indikas ke purpuro esas substanco de qua v= enas la koloro. Dyer semblas agir saje: la Angla purple=C2=A0esas st= rikte koloro, e la LIF dicas ke "purpuro" esas strikte koloro, ne= kolorizivo! Me uzus sive "purpura" sive "purpurea".


roz-ea venas de rozo,=C2=A0floro. Substantivo. = Me do uzus "rozea".


skarlata:=C2=A0= Sama problemo kam nakarato=C2=A0e purpuro. La LIF e Pesch dic= as ke "skarlato" esas koloro. Dyer saje indikas ke la koloro esas= do adjektivo de qua la substantivo derivesas. Me do uzus "skarlata&qu= ot;.


ultramaro:=C2=A0Takaze Dyer povus sembla= r tre konfuza, ma la etimologio Franca esas klara: "ultramaro" es= as mineralo e farbo, do substantivo. "ultramara" esas uzata por d= icar, exemple, "ultramara farbo". "ultramarea" esas la = koloro. Pesch konkordas (farbo), dum ke la LIF esas neklara (koloro). Me do= uzus "ultramarea".


umbro:=C2=A0Lu = esas farbo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "umbrea".


viol-ea venas de violo,=C2=A0planto. Substantivo. Me do uzus &qu= ot;violea".


Sume, me kredas ke la dicionario Id= o-Angla da Dyer esas la maxim fidinda por komprenar la kolori, ma nula dici= onario esas perfekta nek tote klara.


Kun kordiala sa= luti,
Gilles-Philippe


On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at = 4:54 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote= :
=C2=A0
Semblas a me ke esas problemo pri ula vorti pr= i kolori. Yen la koloro-vorti quin me trovis en diversa lexiki (inkluzante = blanka e nigra - kolori honorala?), ma probable esas altri.
=C2=A0
azuro, -ea
beja
bistra
blanka
blonda
blua
bruna
cinabrea
falva
flava
gra= natea
griza
indigo
izabela
kakia
<= div style=3D"background-color:white">karmezi= na
karmezino
karmino, -ea
kastanea
lilacea
maronea
nakarata
nakarato
nigra
orea
oranjea
ponsa
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">purpura
purpuro
reda
roz= ea
rufa
skarlata
skarlato
ultramaro. -a, -ea
umbro (?)
verda
violea
=C2=A0
La problemo = esas ke la vorti bazala por ula kolori esas, segun nia lexiki, substantivi.= Pluse, en poka kazi, esas trovebla adjektivi e substantivi nederivita ma k= un sama radiko. Yen manko di logiko.
=C2=A0
Se on komencas p= er adjektivo, exemple "reda", la direte o nemediate derivita subs= tantivo, "redo", reprezentas irga kozo o persono qua esas reda.
=C2=A0
Tamen se on komencas per substantivo, exemple "ind= igo" o "nakarato", ed on derivas adjektivo nemediate, exempl= e "nakarata", la senco dil adjektivo esas gramatike "ta qua = esas nakarato", ne ta qua havas la koloro nakarato. Kontraste, redo ne= esas koloro, ma irga kozo reda. Esas difero inter esar koloro e havar kolo= ro!
=C2=A0
Ni mustas decidar, exemple, kad havar "purpur= o, -ea" o "purpura, -(aj)o". Me kredas ke omna koloro-vorti = mustas esar adjektivi, exemple "reda" e "skarlata", ne = "reda" e "skarlato".
=C2=A0
Quale opinion= as altri?
=C2=A0
= Kordiale,
=C2=A0
Robert C.
=C2=A0
<= p>


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Kara Robert,

Pri "ruleto&q= uot; vu esas justa: til nun, me ne savas pro quo, me sempre imaginis o supo= zis ke la vorto "ruleto", ne nur en Ido ed Esperanto ma anke en m= ea matrala linguo, esas primare la nomo di la rulanta cirklo faketoza e nur= sekundare la nomo di la korespondanta ludo, ma, konsultinte diversa-lingua= vorto-libri, me konstatas ke ol esas nur la nomo di la ludo...

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo
=

2017-01-07 18:29 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@y= ahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
=C2=A0
Me ofras nur du mikra komenti. Me miskom= prenis "sharado". Pesch dicas ke ol esas (sorto di) enigmato. Dye= r tradukas ol kom "charade", e me pensis pri "charades"= qua esas ludo. Segun Dyer e Pesch, ruleto esas ludo.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0
<= /div>

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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=DroDd_KStIZwOgvFz_kQZnKEUnthnMBD42_14Ioykwz6jfkD83ld8A X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c092d38bdffec0545b2e585 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe, Pri *originar me ne asentas la judiko da Andreas Jus= te, quankam me citis lu. Meaopinione, "origino" ne esas sinonimo di "komenc= o", nam olca expresas ago (la ago komencar), kontre ke olta expresas la ide= o "komenco-punto" (la punto en qua, o de qua, ulo komencas, ma ne la komenc= o ipsa). Kordiale, Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-07 21:15 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phi= lippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] := > > > Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, > Danko pro la tre informanta respondo. Ne timez= , tua laboro ne esas vana. > > Tu esas justa, on ya darfas derivar verbo de= substantivo qua reprezentas > ago o stando. Fakte, yen quon la *Kompleta G= ramatiko* skribas pri to: > > "1e Substantivo nemediate formacita de verbo = signifikas nature la ago o la > stando expresata da ta verbo. Ex. : laboro = =3D *ago laborar*; jaco =3D *ago > jacar*; langoro =3D *stando langorar*; e= moco =3D *stando emocar*, *sento > emocar*. > > "Konsequo. =E2=80=94 Invers= e on darfas formacar verbo nemediate de substantivo, > nur se ta substantiv= o expresas ago o stando. Exemple, de *paco* on darfas > formacar la verbo p= acar =3D *esar en paco*, pro ke *paco* esas stando; ma > de *domo* on ne da= rfas formacar la verbo domar, qua havus nula senco, > *domo* expresante nek= ago, nek stando (1)." > > (*Kompleta Gramatiko*, Louis de Beaufront, sub *= Nemediata derivado*.) > > Quo surprizas me esas ke on adoptis "sturmar" pos= adoptir "sturmo" segun > la Lexiko di Nova Vorti . Anke, > dicionarii tala quala ta di Dyer preferis pozar "paca= r" ante "paco", tale > quale se "paco" derivus de "pacar" vice lo inversa. = (Ma che Dyer, "jorno" e > "jornar" esas en la justa ordino.) Ka tala chanjo= esis necesa se la reguli > igas lu neutila? > > Etimologiale, "futbalo" ya= esus objekto, t.e. balono. Tamen, on decidis > adoptar la vorto nur por la= ludo e to esas korekta. "futbalo" povas divenar > "futbalar" tote quale "l= udo" divenas "ludar", "muziko" divenas "muzikar", > e.c. > > Sume, "nostalg= iar", "eutanaziar", e.c., esas korekta nam li esas stando ed > ago. > > "or= igino" esas objekto od abstrakta koncepto, ka ne? Pesch dicas ke lu > esas = "departopunto". Or on ne povas "puntar". > > Per ta exemplo me judikus, ke = Andreas Juste eroris pro sua "Franca mento". > "originer" ya esas Franca ve= rbo, tala quala "causer", "scintiller", e.c. > > Ma se on konsideras "origi= no" kom sinonimo di "komenco", to chanjas omno. > "origino" esas punto dum = ke "komenco" esas ago. > > Tamen itere me ne esas certa. "finar" esas ago (= segun Dyer), ma "fino" > segun praktiko povas anke esar punto quale "origin= o". > > "finar" esas antonimo di "komencar", ka ne? > On *komencas* e *fina= s* laboro. > > "fino" esas antonimo di "origino", ka ne? > On komencas sava= r plu multe pri la *origino* di la homaro, ma on ankore > savas mem min mul= te pri lua *fino*. > > Do ka "komencar" e "origino" singla havas nur un sen= co, dum ke "fino" > havas du senci? > > Yen ni eniras griza parto di nia li= nguo! To interesas me. > > "La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan ol habile sol= vesos dal homi qui > desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli kom vana o ne= utila..." > Certe! Certe! Nu, certe... ne. > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gille= s-Philippe > > 2017-01-06 19:43 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail= .com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> >> Kara Robert,= >> >> En sua verko "Studyo pri la derivado en la linguo internaciona" (191= 0), >> Couturat skribis i.a.: >> >> "La substantivo nemediate derivita de v= erbo signifikas l'ago o stando >> expresata da la radiko. Konseque, ula ver= bo povas derivar nemediate de >> substantivo nur se olca expresas ago o sta= ndo; ed en ica kazo la verbo >> signifikas: facar ta ago, esar en ta stando= ." (p. 10) >> >> En sua verko "Idala foliumi" (198) Andreas Juste, citinte = la supera vorti >> da Couturat, argumentas yene: >> >> "Segun ta principo n= i povas do konsiderar exemple: "nostalgiar", >> "melankoliar" o "originar",= e tale plus, kom formi tote korekta." (p. 61) >> >> Teoriale, do, omno sem= blas tre facila: se substantivo expresas ago o >> stando (do, nek objekto n= ek koncepto), on darfas direte (o "nemediate", >> quale Couturat expresis l= o) derivar verbo de olu. Tamen praktikale la kozo >> ne esas tante simpla. = Exemple, en la supere mencionita verko, Juste >> formacis la verbo "kauzar"= direte de "kauzo" en yena frazo: "Certe on povas >> komprenar ed explikar = la fonetikala motivi, qui en antiqua epoko kauzis >> duopla pronunco di ta = litero [...]" (p. 67). Pro quo Juste facis tala >> direta derivo? Ka lu ju= dikis "kauzo" kom ago o stando? To esas desfacile >> intelektebla. Me tote = ne povas konceptar "kauzo" kom ago o stando... Forsan >> Juste simple subis= is influo dal Franca "causer"... >> >> Altra exemplo: en la verko "Quar rak= onti" da Guy de Maupassant, quan J. >> Houillon tradukis de la Franca (1926= ), on lektas yena frazo: "Ol [la >> rivero] tamen esas bela, kande ol cinti= las ye la sun-levo" (p. 3). Omna >> vorto-libri indikas ke "cintil/" esas s= ubstantivala radiko, verbigenda >> nedirete ("cintilifar"). Pro quo Houillo= n (qua esis stilo-maestro, same kam >> Juste) facis tala direta derivo? Ka = lu judikis "cintilo" kom ago o stando? >> Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu sim= ple subisis influo dal Franca >> ("scintiller"). "cintilo" ya tote ne esas = ago o stando, ma objekto... >> >> Nu, se stilo-maestri eroroze derivas pro = influo da certena nacionala >> lingui, qui en ca o ta kazo derivas direte, = forsan multi de ni, en >> certena o mem multa okazioni, hezitas derivar di= rete pro la inversa >> motivo, nome, pro ke nia nacionala lingui ordinare n= e verbigas la >> korespondanta substantivi... >> >> "futbalo", "wisto", "ma= zurko" edc, meaopinione, ne expresas objekti od >> abstrakta koncepti. Do o= n darfas direte verbigar oli: "futbalar", "wistar", >> "mazurkar", mem se n= ula nacionala linguo verbigas oli. Tamen ne omna >> substantivi en vua list= o esas tala, segun me. Exemple, "sharado", segun me, >> expresas ne ago o s= tando, ma objekto. Anke "ruleto" klare expresas objekto. >> >> La temo ne e= sas facila, ma forsan ol habile solvesos dal homi qui >> desprizas linguala= diskuti o judikas oli kom vana o neutila... >> >> Kordiale, >> >> Gon=C3= =A7alo >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2017-01-06 21:26 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@aven= ue.me.uk [linguolisto] < >> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >>> >>> Kara G= on=C3=A7alo, >>> >>> Me ya komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne esas klara pro qu= o ula forsan >>> posibla vorti ne (mem nultempe?) mencionesas, e pro quo ul= a kap-vorti esas >>> substantivi ma altri esas verbi. >>> >>> Ni omna savas= ke de verbo on darfas direte derivar substantivo, ma ne >>> esas tam klara= kande on darfas direte derivar verbo de substantivo. >>> Exemple, kad de "= mestiero" ("sorto di laboro manuala") on darfas derivar >>> "mestierar"? >>= > >>> Dyer havas: >>> ludar - ludo >>> Ma: >>> sporto - sportar. >>> Anke, = ma sen mencioni di verbi: >>> bezigo >>> biliardo >>> brelano >>> chaketo >= >> pentatlo >>> pulo >>> ruleto >>> sharado >>> teniso (e ludar -o, ne teni= sar!) >>> triktrako >>> wisto >>> La LNV (1988) havas: >>> futbalo. >>> Nun= ni havas anke: >>> golfo. >>> >>> Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular" e "wi= star"? >>> >>> Simile, Dyer havas: >>> dansar >>> polkar >>> valsar (e vals= -igar). >>> Ma: >>> entrechato >>> farandolo >>> foxtroto >>> gavoto >>> ko= ntradanso >>> mazurko >>> pavano >>> polonezo >>> sarabando >>> skotisho. >= >> >>> Existas "sturmar" e "tempestar"; kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed >>>= "uraganar"? >>> >>> Semblas dezirinda ke vort-libri indikez quo esas apta = ube koncernas >>> direta verbigo. >>> >>> Necerte, ma kordiale, >>> Robert = C. >>> >>> >> > > --94eb2c092d38bdffec0545b2e585 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Pri *origi= nar me ne asentas la judiko da Andreas Juste, quankam me citis lu. Meaopini= one, "origino" ne esas sinonimo di "komenco", nam olca = expresas ago (la ago komencar), kontre ke olta expresas la ideo "komen= co-punto" (la punto en qua, o de qua, ulo komencas, ma ne la komenco i= psa).

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo




2017-01-07 21:15 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <= a href=3D"mailto:gphmorin@gmail.com">gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= span dir=3D"ltr"><linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la tre informanta resp= ondo. Ne timez, tua laboro ne esas vana.

Tu esas j= usta, on ya darfas derivar verbo de substantivo qua reprezentas ago o stand= o. Fakte, yen quon la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0skribas pri to:
<= div>
"1e Substantivo nemediate formacita de verbo s= ignifikas nature la ago o la stando expresata da ta verbo. Ex. : laboro =3D= ago laborar; jaco =3D ago jacar; langoro =3D stando lango= rar; emoco =3D stando emocar, sento emocar.
"Konsequo. =E2=80=94 Inverse on darfas formacar verbo neme= diate de substantivo, nur se ta substantivo expresas ago o stando. Exemple,= de paco on darfas formacar la verbo pacar =3D esar en paco, = pro ke paco esas stando; ma de domo on ne darfas formacar la = verbo domar, qua havus nula senco, domo expresante nek ago, nek stan= do (1)."

(Kompleta Gramatiko, Lo= uis de Beaufront, sub Nemediata derivado.)

= Quo surprizas me esas ke on adoptis "sturmar" pos adoptir "s= turmo" segun la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. Anke, dicionarii tala quala ta di Dye= r preferis pozar "pacar" ante "paco", tale quale se &qu= ot;paco" derivus de "pacar" vice lo inversa. (Ma che Dyer, &= quot;jorno" e "jornar" esas en la justa ordino.) Ka tala cha= njo esis necesa se la reguli igas lu neutila?

Etim= ologiale, "futbalo" ya esus objekto, t.e. balono. Tamen, on decid= is adoptar la vorto nur por la ludo e to esas korekta. "futbalo" = povas divenar "futbalar" tote quale "ludo" divenas &quo= t;ludar", "muziko" divenas "muzikar", e.c.

Sume, "nostalgiar", "eutanaziar", e.c= ., esas korekta nam li esas stando ed ago.

"o= rigino" esas objekto od abstrakta koncepto, ka ne? Pesch dicas ke lu e= sas "departopunto". Or on ne povas "puntar".
=
Per ta exemplo me judikus, ke Andreas Juste eroris pro sua &= quot;Franca mento". "originer" ya esas Franca verbo, tala qu= ala "causer", "scintiller", e.c.

Ma se on konsideras "origino" kom sinonimo di "komenco&qu= ot;, to chanjas omno. "origino" esas punto dum ke "komenco&q= uot; esas ago.

Tamen itere me ne esas certa. "= ;finar" esas ago (segun Dyer), ma "fino" segun praktiko pova= s anke esar punto quale "origino".

"= ;finar" esas antonimo di "komencar", ka ne?
On komenca= s e finas laboro.

"fino" esas= antonimo di "origino", ka ne?
On komencas savar plu mu= lte pri la origino di la homaro, ma on ankore savas mem min multe pr= i lua fino.

Do ka "komencar" e &q= uot;origino" singla havas nur un senco, dum ke "fino" havas = du senci?

Yen ni eniras griza parto di nia linguo!= To interesas me.

"La temo ne esa= s facila, ma forsan ol habile solvesos dal homi qui desprizas linguala disk= uti o judikas oli kom vana o neutila..."
Certe! Certe! Nu, = certe... ne.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles= -Philippe

=
2017-01-06 19:43 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
<= u>
=C2=A0=
=

Kara Robert,

En sua verko "Studyo pri la derivad= o en la linguo internaciona" (1910), Couturat skribis i.a.:

"La substantivo nemediate derivita de verbo signifikas l'= ago o stando expresata da la radiko. Konseque, ula verbo povas derivar neme= diate de substantivo nur se olca expresas ago o stando; ed en ica kazo la v= erbo signifikas: facar ta ago, esar en ta stando." (p. 10)

En sua verko "Idala foliumi" (198) Andreas Juste, citinte= la supera vorti da Couturat, argumentas yene:

<= font size=3D"4">"Seg= un ta principo ni povas do konsiderar exemple: "nostalgiar", &quo= t;melankoliar" o "originar", e tale plus, kom formi tote kor= ekta." (p. 61)

Teoriale, do, omno semblas tre facil= a: se substantivo expresas ago o stando (do, nek objekto nek koncepto), on = darfas direte (o "nemediate", quale Couturat expresis lo) derivar= verbo de olu. Tamen praktikale la kozo ne esas tante simpla. Exemple, en l= a supere mencionita verko, Juste formacis la verbo "kauzar" diret= e de "kauzo" en yena frazo: "Certe on povas komprenar ed exp= likar la fonetikala motivi, qui en antiqua epoko kauzis duopla pronunco di = ta litero [...]"=C2=A0 (p. 67). Pro quo Juste facis tala direta derivo= ? Ka lu judikis "kauzo" kom ago o stando? To esas desfacile intel= ektebla. Me tote ne povas konceptar "kauzo" kom ago o stando... F= orsan Juste simple subisis influo dal Franca "causer"...

<= /span>
Altra exemplo: en la verko "Quar rakonti" da Guy de Ma= upassant, quan J. Houillon tradukis de la Franca (1926), on lektas yena fra= zo: "Ol [la rivero] tamen esas bela, kande ol cintilas ye la sun-levo&= quot; (p. 3). Omna vorto-libri indikas ke "cintil/" esas substant= ivala radiko, verbigenda nedirete ("cintilifar"). Pro quo Houillo= n (qua esis stilo-maestro, same kam Juste) facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu = judikis "cintilo" kom ago o stando? Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu= simple subisis influo dal Franca ("scintiller"). "cintilo&q= uot; ya tote ne esas ago o stando, ma objekto...

Nu, se = stilo-maestri eroroze derivas pro influo da certena nacionala lingui, qui e= n ca o ta kazo derivas direte, forsan multi de ni,=C2=A0 en certena o mem mul= ta okazioni, hezitas derivar direte pro la inversa motivo, no= me, pro ke nia nacionala lingui ordinare ne verbigas la korespondanta subst= antivi...

"futbalo", "wisto", "= mazurko" edc, meaopinione, ne expresas objekti od abstrakta koncepti. = Do on darfas direte verbigar oli: "futbalar", "wistar",= "mazurkar", mem se nula nacionala linguo verbigas oli. Tamen ne = omna substantivi en vua listo esas tala, segun me. Exemple, "sharado&q= uot;, segun me, expresas ne ago o stando, ma objekto. Anke "ruleto&quo= t; klare expresas objekto.

La temo ne esas facila, ma fo= rsan ol habile solvesos dal homi qui desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas o= li kom vana o neutila...

Kordiale,

G= on=C3=A7alo
=

=C2=A0

<= /span>



2017-01-06 21= :26 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yah= oogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
=C2=A0
Me ya komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne esas klara pro quo ula forsan posib= la vorti ne (mem nultempe?) mencionesas, e pro quo ula kap-vorti esas subst= antivi ma altri esas verbi.
=C2=A0
Ni omna savas ke= de verbo on darfas direte derivar substantivo, ma ne esas tam klara kande = on darfas direte derivar verbo de substantivo. Exemple, kad de "mestie= ro" ("sorto di laboro manuala") on darfas derivar "mest= ierar"?
=C2=A0
Dyer havas:
ludar -= ludo
Ma:
sporto - sportar.
Anke, ma = sen mencioni di verbi:
bezigo
biliardo
=
= brelano
chaketo
pentatlo
pulo
ruleto
sharado
teniso (e ludar -o, ne tenisar!)<= /span>
triktrako
wisto
La LNV (1988) havas:
futbalo.
= Nun ni havas anke:
golfo.
=C2=A0
Kad on darf= as "biliardar", "pular" e "wistar"?
=C2=A0
Simile, Dyer havas:
dansar
<= div class=3D"m_-2310024489348276817m_-6472306413965949661m_4604438206811536= 784body" style=3D"background-color:white">po= lkar
valsar (e vals-igar).
Ma:
entrecha= to
farandolo
foxtroto
gavoto
kontradanso
mazurko
pavano
polonezo<= /span>
sarabando
skotisho.
=C2=A0
Existas "sturmar" e "te= mpestar"; kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed "uraganar&quo= t;?
=C2=A0
Sem= blas dezirinda ke vort-libri indikez quo esas apta ube koncernas direta ver= bigo.
=C2=A0
Necerte, ma kordiale,
<= div class=3D"m_-2310024489348276817m_-6472306413965949661m_4604438206811536= 784body" style=3D"background-color:white">Ro= bert C.


=
=

=

--94eb2c092d38bdffec0545b2e585-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4733 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 10759 invoked by uid 102); 10 Jan 2017 01:19:00 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m15.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2017 01:19:00 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 19823 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2017 01:19:00 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2017 01:19:00 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.54 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: IkUfSQ4WLDtPRDsPAlcl8Lc69PGTM7dfuXqGl3ToLwLODish 2k4JrRZAwC6qnyG.CQ5CAa1wbZyvjCequGw14Iddd_S0ImSGDjsHpbmrnJbG 9bRHzmJqiyQDttga9s1ChSvAo0xQti482UF9DqslSCToSShRhkWJ3Mzb87U3 EV.hlgmMrSnNBp5VGsy73nnU7AhQ0GqKmWAGqGY_rv9DlHwuoo_RM9prGxlh gCnrtPQ.Qo1_Lrh4UglGcBTqC4nI8522ycWUxvEdUJAiJNaEyDOIWEBvIBCk MC3BWu23WH679rRyPBLMZ0P_EYZJAp5mVzkH_31mLcGH8NnsoOvMtDSgtR1k iLTD0WKTpu_tyThA92c3GCPzUKi6fW9.a1NOA33JLMG_bGwuj.3WVeSMPcEK S6S47BwwyATYmf5h.5WfQ9O26UDfFAy0ddp68RBbGDXQXR8TerAloS7r9Ydl eelsj1Gx4ADZiv89rQqP_DdujSqi1CkvI9sKGfAomFmU.tozzP0.zvkZiL_a EdougTzG6YWWmVwPsT74c.v6uIswwd9wqI64zpbn0fc5DaxZ2QHOgJpmmrMf GHGEVtjRP5AuxzGXXn_qdib3jufhEhzT1csGwXJ3CT93e_XLfRz_nLPuThzS IJN6QOAcZe2_wofJ59f4VvEHgCLlLVmKh9Qj0PeW6ARA8mjySmnnd04sZbrg Z8B.uW5hnZz4HwekshgA2YTL.OtogU_ghXeO_c5gfyg6Hlc2vTtMoXbUG.Kw wpDu0aYJbh5xkiEGq64BLb54w8dwrCk.91Xq1poAiBrmqlmxbx9Sr4uXT9OY g6vqUgH4wlwu84F24H5OCqI6oXijfLi7CbJlk.zwEOoyBl4Z8Q6pR.FAi.Tb DbG0Wc4dUbT0ANskcPNvnFwDaEfAE8i4is0a._xlfIT4wiieENOqGv20ckko 3DmPtpTybyzDeMteRTVaLW335T5m6D4Ul_GeCLeQYCs7LW9KvzBrIvJd3r3v VCLyFKStrkcwXdEzcGdKdhDRUWPNWM4E0T8tv5vE7FnLvBoSn9XdlAVrVpB1 AyPSh2n31XbdA6heBJklRE0qbirW2CLXHy_FqdvukKFm0.GBAgJCqQra3Y7A O_H47mHNY1QyuGRH24pqlUgcHmin6brae0rQej.UPxEXzYktrP4UuDsHqRyg CpZqtAxMIBRScgkYVzIehZi3m9p3Ry8FBGE3dk36lm.8yAbArbuJdwzDx5rl LrzsBfOFLKjDbFk8pmOPbP3rgSccQe0vVkYDGVsBtR4MzupQaGJP.X.CmRvo _l9MLuNNsXSTE3VoHfdpxi24u_GPd6SLZIxr_BzcSYBfSWLy0YqPS_eyLT52 8KvsUKjj22YU.N24VBgg_sXpXC0TbrNmbT33Pr618I2_ODPX__mceCK6WJn8 3aKkb3SSMsVcdK4a8M5nHhHyNQ-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f54.google.com) (209.85.215.54) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 10 Jan 2017 01:19:00 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f54.google.com with SMTP id o140so50935460lff.3 for ; Mon, 09 Jan 2017 17:18:59 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Spq5fze6h/5axqdj8RebgOQiNPbjZBhd09ypkxjqC4A=; b=KPVBxiMDxPa0l268y0abUVr6OCGspkdUiTHzjrDjh54wNA+PhSSQ5SRiAtcGGgPTG3 /0TlUTLLN1N+ttH+iHsQEga4wzol1aUb4ylGWFOKFzFF3c151hXvKqY8znOuxf1iVQhu xxWiEm2giH22kEnmgtVWsoYyfS/7qf8mCA16csXDWm8u3WOPB3aBzKgY2VMrjsCIX+yl AIpBlKtyTW7A7unqKvzGShF7GrlALNcSsZBM96SnZHpcNRScGUoq9c4vxEHMlri+uSeE 4T0WvZKHu9X4/7TCI49dNMAKf3sTJnKOeFtwF+TRP04JR9Lr6t4nt+nvlDeKUiNTc9ne 1AUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXL+HdFuRkZQi2KdAVj+hdjT7wnXmtohGOfiRTdwvRg2FJ+gBHII3vH0qIiKo/v3HYpqhriL49s68tBxUg== X-Received: by 10.25.22.104 with SMTP id m101mr124230lfi.17.1484010670175; Mon, 09 Jan 2017 17:11:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Jan 2017 17:11:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201716212649.055692@D9B5MN3J> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 20:11:09 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114015e2d6bae60545b32868 Subject: Re: [linguo] eutanazi/ar? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114015e2d6bae60545b32868 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, Danko pro la informo! La *Tr=C3=A9sor de la Langue fran= =C3=A7aise* konkordas kun tu pri "ruleto". E me konkordas kun tu pri "origi= no". Amikale, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-09 19:52 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Nev= es gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > = Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > Pri *originar me ne asentas la judiko da Andreas = Juste, quankam me citis > lu. Meaopinione, "origino" ne esas sinonimo di "k= omenco", nam olca expresas > ago (la ago komencar), kontre ke olta expresas= la ideo "komenco-punto" (la > punto en qua, o de qua, ulo komencas, ma ne = la komenco ipsa). > > Kordiale, > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > > > 2017-01-07 21:15= GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, >> Danko pro la tre i= nformanta respondo. Ne timez, tua laboro ne esas vana. >> >> Tu esas justa,= on ya darfas derivar verbo de substantivo qua reprezentas >> ago o stando.= Fakte, yen quon la *Kompleta Gramatiko* skribas pri to: >> >> "1e Substant= ivo nemediate formacita de verbo signifikas nature la ago o >> la stando ex= presata da ta verbo. Ex. : laboro =3D *ago laborar*; jaco =3D *ago >> jacar= *; langoro =3D *stando langorar*; emoco =3D *stando emocar*, *sento >> emoc= ar*. >> >> "Konsequo. =E2=80=94 Inverse on darfas formacar verbo nemediate = de substantivo, >> nur se ta substantivo expresas ago o stando. Exemple, de= *paco* on >> darfas formacar la verbo pacar =3D *esar en paco*, pro ke *pa= co* esas >> stando; ma de *domo* on ne darfas formacar la verbo domar, qua = havus >> nula senco, *domo* expresante nek ago, nek stando (1)." >> >> (*Ko= mpleta Gramatiko*, Louis de Beaufront, sub *Nemediata derivado*.) >> >> Quo= surprizas me esas ke on adoptis "sturmar" pos adoptir "sturmo" segun >> la= Lexiko di Nova Vorti . Anke, >> dicio= narii tala quala ta di Dyer preferis pozar "pacar" ante "paco", tale >> qua= le se "paco" derivus de "pacar" vice lo inversa. (Ma che Dyer, "jorno" e >>= "jornar" esas en la justa ordino.) Ka tala chanjo esis necesa se la reguli= >> igas lu neutila? >> >> Etimologiale, "futbalo" ya esus objekto, t.e. ba= lono. Tamen, on decidis >> adoptar la vorto nur por la ludo e to esas korek= ta. "futbalo" povas divenar >> "futbalar" tote quale "ludo" divenas "ludar"= , "muziko" divenas "muzikar", >> e.c. >> >> Sume, "nostalgiar", "eutanaziar= ", e.c., esas korekta nam li esas stando >> ed ago. >> >> "origino" esas ob= jekto od abstrakta koncepto, ka ne? Pesch dicas ke lu >> esas "departopunto= ". Or on ne povas "puntar". >> >> Per ta exemplo me judikus, ke Andreas Jus= te eroris pro sua "Franca >> mento". "originer" ya esas Franca verbo, tala = quala "causer", "scintiller", >> e.c. >> >> Ma se on konsideras "origino" k= om sinonimo di "komenco", to chanjas omno. >> "origino" esas punto dum ke "= komenco" esas ago. >> >> Tamen itere me ne esas certa. "finar" esas ago (se= gun Dyer), ma "fino" >> segun praktiko povas anke esar punto quale "origino= ". >> >> "finar" esas antonimo di "komencar", ka ne? >> On *komencas* e *fi= nas* laboro. >> >> "fino" esas antonimo di "origino", ka ne? >> On komencas= savar plu multe pri la *origino* di la homaro, ma on ankore >> savas mem m= in multe pri lua *fino*. >> >> Do ka "komencar" e "origino" singla havas nu= r un senco, dum ke "fino" >> havas du senci? >> >> Yen ni eniras griza part= o di nia linguo! To interesas me. >> >> "La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan = ol habile solvesos dal homi qui >> desprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli= kom vana o neutila..." >> Certe! Certe! Nu, certe... ne. >> >> Kun kordial= a saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> 2017-01-06 19:43 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo = Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >>= >>> >>> >>> Kara Robert, >>> >>> En sua verko "Studyo pri la derivado en l= a linguo internaciona" (1910), >>> Couturat skribis i.a.: >>> >>> "La subst= antivo nemediate derivita de verbo signifikas l'ago o stando >>> expresata = da la radiko. Konseque, ula verbo povas derivar nemediate de >>> substantiv= o nur se olca expresas ago o stando; ed en ica kazo la verbo >>> signifikas= : facar ta ago, esar en ta stando." (p. 10) >>> >>> En sua verko "Idala fol= iumi" (198) Andreas Juste, citinte la supera >>> vorti da Couturat, argumen= tas yene: >>> >>> "Segun ta principo ni povas do konsiderar exemple: "nosta= lgiar", >>> "melankoliar" o "originar", e tale plus, kom formi tote korekta= ." (p. 61) >>> >>> Teoriale, do, omno semblas tre facila: se substantivo ex= presas ago o >>> stando (do, nek objekto nek koncepto), on darfas direte (o= "nemediate", >>> quale Couturat expresis lo) derivar verbo de olu. Tamen p= raktikale la kozo >>> ne esas tante simpla. Exemple, en la supere mencionit= a verko, Juste >>> formacis la verbo "kauzar" direte de "kauzo" en yena fra= zo: "Certe on povas >>> komprenar ed explikar la fonetikala motivi, qui en = antiqua epoko kauzis >>> duopla pronunco di ta litero [...]" (p. 67). Pro = quo Juste facis tala >>> direta derivo? Ka lu judikis "kauzo" kom ago o sta= ndo? To esas desfacile >>> intelektebla. Me tote ne povas konceptar "kauzo"= kom ago o stando... Forsan >>> Juste simple subisis influo dal Franca "cau= ser"... >>> >>> Altra exemplo: en la verko "Quar rakonti" da Guy de Maupass= ant, quan J. >>> Houillon tradukis de la Franca (1926), on lektas yena fraz= o: "Ol [la >>> rivero] tamen esas bela, kande ol cintilas ye la sun-levo" (= p. 3). Omna >>> vorto-libri indikas ke "cintil/" esas substantivala radiko,= verbigenda >>> nedirete ("cintilifar"). Pro quo Houillon (qua esis stilo-m= aestro, same kam >>> Juste) facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu judikis "cintil= o" kom ago o stando? >>> Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu simple subisis influ= o dal Franca >>> ("scintiller"). "cintilo" ya tote ne esas ago o stando, ma= objekto... >>> >>> Nu, se stilo-maestri eroroze derivas pro influo da cert= ena nacionala >>> lingui, qui en ca o ta kazo derivas direte, forsan multi = de ni, en >>> certena o mem multa okazioni, hezitas derivar direte pro la = inversa >>> motivo, nome, pro ke nia nacionala lingui ordinare ne verbigas = la >>> korespondanta substantivi... >>> >>> "futbalo", "wisto", "mazurko" e= dc, meaopinione, ne expresas objekti od >>> abstrakta koncepti. Do on darfa= s direte verbigar oli: "futbalar", "wistar", >>> "mazurkar", mem se nula na= cionala linguo verbigas oli. Tamen ne omna >>> substantivi en vua listo esa= s tala, segun me. Exemple, "sharado", segun me, >>> expresas ne ago o stand= o, ma objekto. Anke "ruleto" klare expresas objekto. >>> >>> La temo ne esa= s facila, ma forsan ol habile solvesos dal homi qui >>> desprizas linguala = diskuti o judikas oli kom vana o neutila... >>> >>> Kordiale, >>> >>> Gon= =C3=A7alo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2017-01-06 21:26 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.= ' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < >>> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >>> >>= >> >>>> Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, >>>> >>>> Me ya komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne e= sas klara pro quo ula forsan >>>> posibla vorti ne (mem nultempe?) mencione= sas, e pro quo ula kap-vorti esas >>>> substantivi ma altri esas verbi. >>>= > >>>> Ni omna savas ke de verbo on darfas direte derivar substantivo, ma n= e >>>> esas tam klara kande on darfas direte derivar verbo de substantivo. = >>>> Exemple, kad de "mestiero" ("sorto di laboro manuala") on darfas deriv= ar >>>> "mestierar"? >>>> >>>> Dyer havas: >>>> ludar - ludo >>>> Ma: >>>> = sporto - sportar. >>>> Anke, ma sen mencioni di verbi: >>>> bezigo >>>> bil= iardo >>>> brelano >>>> chaketo >>>> pentatlo >>>> pulo >>>> ruleto >>>> sh= arado >>>> teniso (e ludar -o, ne tenisar!) >>>> triktrako >>>> wisto >>>> = La LNV (1988) havas: >>>> futbalo. >>>> Nun ni havas anke: >>>> golfo. >>>>= >>>> Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular" e "wistar"? >>>> >>>> Simile, Dyer= havas: >>>> dansar >>>> polkar >>>> valsar (e vals-igar). >>>> Ma: >>>> en= trechato >>>> farandolo >>>> foxtroto >>>> gavoto >>>> kontradanso >>>> maz= urko >>>> pavano >>>> polonezo >>>> sarabando >>>> skotisho. >>>> >>>> Exis= tas "sturmar" e "tempestar"; kad ni darfas dicar "kaosar" ed >>>> "uraganar= "? >>>> >>>> Semblas dezirinda ke vort-libri indikez quo esas apta ube konc= ernas >>>> direta verbigo. >>>> >>>> Necerte, ma kordiale, >>>> Robert C. >= >>> >>>> >>> >> > > --001a114015e2d6bae60545b32868 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la informo! La Tr=C3= =A9sor de la Langue fran=C3=A7aise konkordas kun tu pri "ruleto&qu= ot;. E me konkordas kun tu pri "origino".

Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe
=
2017-01-09 19:52 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neve= s gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto= ] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Pri *originar me ne a= sentas la judiko da Andreas Juste, quankam me citis lu. Meaopinione, "= origino" ne esas sinonimo di "komenco", nam olca expresas ag= o (la ago komencar), kontre ke olta expresas la ideo "komenco-punto&qu= ot; (la punto en qua, o de qua, ulo komencas, ma ne la komenco ipsa).
Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo




2017-01-07 21:15 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phil= ippe Morin gphmorin= @gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= ;:
= =C2=A0
=
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
= Danko pro la tre informanta respondo. Ne timez, tua laboro ne esas vana.

Tu esas justa, on ya darfas derivar verbo de substan= tivo qua reprezentas ago o stando. Fakte, yen quon la Kompleta Gramatiko= =C2=A0skribas pri to:

"1e Substantiv= o nemediate formacita de verbo signifikas nature la ago o la stando expresa= ta da ta verbo. Ex. : laboro =3D ago laborar; jaco =3D ago jacar<= /i>; langoro =3D stando langorar; emoco =3D stando emocar, sento emocar.

"Konsequo. =E2=80=94 Inver= se on darfas formacar verbo nemediate de substantivo, nur se ta substantivo= expresas ago o stando. Exemple, de paco on darfas formacar la verbo= pacar =3D esar en paco, pro ke paco esas stando; ma de do= mo on ne darfas formacar la verbo domar, qua havus nula senco, domo<= /i> expresante nek ago, nek stando (1)."

(Kompleta Gramatiko, Louis de Beaufront, sub Nemediata derivado= .)

Quo surprizas me esas ke on adoptis "s= turmar" pos adoptir "sturmo" segun la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. Anke,= dicionarii tala quala ta di Dyer preferis pozar "pacar" ante &qu= ot;paco", tale quale se "paco" derivus de "pacar" = vice lo inversa. (Ma che Dyer, "jorno" e "jornar" esas = en la justa ordino.) Ka tala chanjo esis necesa se la reguli igas lu neutil= a?

Etimologiale, "futbalo" ya esus objek= to, t.e. balono. Tamen, on decidis adoptar la vorto nur por la ludo e to es= as korekta. "futbalo" povas divenar "futbalar" tote qua= le "ludo" divenas "ludar", "muziko" divenas &= quot;muzikar", e.c.

Sume, "nostalgiar&qu= ot;, "eutanaziar", e.c., esas korekta nam li esas stando ed ago.<= /div>

"origino" esas objekto od abstrakta konc= epto, ka ne? Pesch dicas ke lu esas "departopunto". Or on ne pova= s "puntar".

Per ta exemplo me judikus, k= e Andreas Juste eroris pro sua "Franca mento". "originer&quo= t; ya esas Franca verbo, tala quala "causer", "scintiller&qu= ot;, e.c.

Ma se on konsideras "origino" = kom sinonimo di "komenco", to chanjas omno. "origino" e= sas punto dum ke "komenco" esas ago.

Tam= en itere me ne esas certa. "finar" esas ago (segun Dyer), ma &quo= t;fino" segun praktiko povas anke esar punto quale "origino"= .

"finar" esas antonimo di "komenca= r", ka ne?
On komencas e finas laboro.

=
"fino" esas antonimo di "origino", ka ne?
On komencas savar plu multe pri la origino di la homaro, ma = on ankore savas mem min multe pri lua fino.

Do ka "komencar" e "origino" singla havas nur un senco= , dum ke "fino" havas du senci?

Yen ni e= niras griza parto di nia linguo! To interesas me.

"La temo ne esas facila, ma forsan ol habile solvesos dal homi qui de= sprizas linguala diskuti o judikas oli kom vana o neutila..."Certe! Certe! Nu, certe... ne.

Kun kordiala sal= uti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-0= 1-06 19:43 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <lingu= olisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara Robert,

En sua ver= ko "Studyo pri la derivado en la linguo internaciona" (1910), Cou= turat skribis i.a.:

"La substantivo nemediate deriv= ita de verbo signifikas l'ago o stando expresata da la radiko. Konseque= , ula verbo povas derivar nemediate de substantivo nur se olca expresas ago= o stando; ed en ica kazo la verbo signifikas: facar ta ago, esar en ta sta= ndo." (p. 10)

En sua verko "Idala foliumi&quo= t; (198) Andreas Juste, citinte la supera vorti da Couturat, argumentas yen= e:

"Segun ta principo ni povas do konsiderar exempl= e: "nostalgiar", "melankoliar" o "originar", = e tale plus, kom formi tote korekta." (p. 61)

Teori= ale, do, omno semblas tre facila: se substantivo expresas ago o stando (do,= nek objekto nek koncepto), on darfas direte (o "nemediate", qual= e Couturat expresis lo) derivar verbo de olu. Tamen praktikale la kozo ne e= sas tante simpla. Exemple, en la supere mencionita verko, Juste formacis la= verbo "kauzar" direte de "kauzo" en yena frazo: "= Certe on povas komprenar ed explikar la fonetikala motivi, qui en antiqua e= poko kauzis duopla pronunco di ta litero [...]"=C2=A0 (p. 67). Pro quo= Juste facis tala direta derivo? Ka lu judikis "kauzo" kom ago o = stando? To esas desfacile intelektebla. Me tote ne povas konceptar "ka= uzo" kom ago o stando... Forsan Juste simple subisis influo dal Franca= "causer"...

Altra exemplo: en la verko "= Quar rakonti" da Guy de Maupassant, quan J. Houillon tradukis de la Fr= anca (1926), on lektas yena frazo: "Ol [la rivero] tamen esas bela, ka= nde ol cintilas ye la sun-levo" (p. 3). Omna vorto-libri indikas ke &q= uot;cintil/" esas substantivala radiko, verbigenda nedirete ("cin= tilifar"). Pro quo Houillon (qua esis stilo-maestro, same kam Juste) f= acis tala direta derivo? Ka lu judikis "cintilo" kom ago o stando= ? Me dubitas.... Forsan anke lu simple subisis influo dal Franca ("sci= ntiller"). "cintilo" ya tote ne esas ago o stando, ma objekt= o...

Nu, se stilo-maestri eroroze derivas pro influo da = certena nacionala lingui, qui en ca o ta kazo derivas direte, forsan multi = de ni,=C2=A0 en certena o mem multa okazioni, hezitas derivar d= irete pro la inversa motivo, nome, pro ke nia nacionala lingui ordinare ne = verbigas la korespondanta substantivi...

"futbalo&q= uot;, "wisto", "mazurko" edc, meaopinione, ne expresas = objekti od abstrakta koncepti. Do on darfas direte verbigar oli: "futb= alar", "wistar", "mazurkar", mem se nula nacionala= linguo verbigas oli. Tamen ne omna substantivi en vua listo esas tala, seg= un me. Exemple, "sharado", segun me, expresas ne ago o stando, ma= objekto. Anke "ruleto" klare expresas objekto.

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo

= =C2=A0
=

<= /span>

2017-01-06 21:26 GMT+00:00 'R= obert C.' ido@ave= nue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= :
= =C2=A0
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
=C2=A0<= /span>
Me ya komprenas la logiko. Tamen, ne esas = klara pro quo ula forsan posibla vorti ne (mem nultempe?) mencionesas, e pr= o quo ula kap-vorti esas substantivi ma altri esas verbi.
=C2=A0
Ni omna savas ke de= verbo on darfas direte derivar substantivo, ma ne esas tam klara kande on = darfas direte derivar verbo de substantivo. Exemple, kad de "mestiero&= quot; ("sorto di laboro manuala") on darfas derivar "mestier= ar"?
=C2=A0
Dyer havas:
ludar - ludo<= /div>
Ma:
sporto - spo= rtar.
Anke, ma sen mencioni di verbi:
bezigo
biliar= do
brelano
chaketo
pentatlo
pulo
ruleto
sharado
teniso (e ludar -o, n= e tenisar!)
triktrako
wisto
La LNV (1988) havas:
= futbalo.
Nu= n ni havas anke:
golfo.
=C2=A0
Kad on darfas "biliardar", "pular" e &= quot;wistar"?
=C2=A0
Simile, Dyer havas:
dansa= r
polkar
= valsar (e vals-igar).
Ma:
entrechato
farandolo
foxtroto
gavo= to
kontradanso
mazurko
pavano
polonezo
sarabando
skotisho.
=C2=A0
Existas = "sturmar" e "tempestar"; kad ni darfas dicar "kaos= ar" ed "uraganar"?
=C2=A0
Sembla= s dezirinda ke vort-libri indikez quo esas apta ube koncernas direta verbig= o.
=C2=A0
Necerte, ma kordiale,
Robert C.




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La Franca suportas = amba senci, t.e. koloro e farbo (segun la TLFi). La Angla suportas nur la k= oloro (segun Oxford). La Hispana suportas nur la koloro (segun la DLE). Me= ne tre bone komprenas la altra lingui, do esas tro desfacila a me verifike= per li. Ma nun semblas a me klara, ke "skarlato" esas *koloro*, ne farbo. = Anke, me nun komprenas pro quo Pesch eroris: lu prenis la defino en la Fra= nca *Dictionnaire g=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral*, qua ofras nur un senco ek la du (farb= o). To esas stranja... Konkluze, Dyer esas justa: ni uzez "skarlata". Kun= kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Gilles-P= hilippe Morin wrote: > Kara Robert, > Danko pro la re= spondo. > > Mea antea mesajo ne havis klara expliko pri la origino di ula v= orti. Nun > me probez posibla teorio. > > Hipotezo: la kolori venas de Espe= ranto e, precipue, de la Fundamento da > Zamenhof. > > Materii: ReVo, la Re= ta Vorto (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/); > Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ai= s (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm). > > Metodo: analizar la radiki di Esp= eranto e komparar kun ti di la vortaro > Ido-Franca. Observar se la fini di= la radiki (-a o -o) esas la sama. > > Probo: > [Radiko di Ido: radiko di E= speranto] > La radiki stelizita venas de la Fundamento. > > azur-o: lazur/o= (1-a Oficiala Aldono). > bej-a: tro nova vorto, ne existas oficala vorto e= n Esperanto. > bistr-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzi= s amba > "bistr/o" e "bistr/a". > blank-a: *blank/a. > blond-a: *blond/a. >= blu-a: *blu/a. > brun-a: *brun/a. > cinabr-o: *cinabr/o. > falv-a: ne exis= tas oficala vorto en Esperanto. > flav-a: *flav/a. > granat-o: ne existas o= ficala vorto en Esperanto. La PV (1934) sugestas > "grenat/o". > griz-a: *g= riz/a. > indig-o: indig/o (4-a Oficiala Aldono). > izabel-a: me ne trovis e= quivalanto. > kaki-a: me ne trovis equivalento. > karmezin-o: ne existas of= icala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis > "karmezin/o". > karmin-o: *karmin= /o. > kastan-o: *ka=C5=9Dtan/o. > lilac-o: *siring/o. > maron-o: ne existas= oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis "maron/o". > nakarat-o: me ne tr= ovis equivalanto. > nigr-a: *nigr/a. > or-o: *or/o. > oranj-o: *oran=C4=9D/= o. > pons-a: *punc/a. > purpur-o: *purpur/o. > red-a: *ru=C4=9D/a. > roz-o:= *roz/o. > ruf-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. La PIV di 1970 sug= estas > "ruf/a". > skarlat-o: *skarlat/o. > ultramar-o: ne existas oficala = vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis > "ultramar/o". > umbr-o: me ne trovis eq= uivalanto. > verd-a: *verd/a. > viol-o: *viol/o. > > Remarki: > 1-me Omna a= djektivi en Esperanto esas adjektivi en Ido; > 2-me Omna substantivi en Esp= eranto esas substantivi en Ido; > 3-me La radiki di Esperanto venas precipu= e (59%) de la Fundamento. > > Konkluzo: Semblas, sive ke Ido kopiis la vort= ofino di Esperanto, sive ke > amba lingui havas la sama origino o la sama l= ogiko. Me ne esas certa ka to > validigas mea hipotezo. > > Pri vua mesajo:= > > Me kredas ke ni bezonas nula chanjo, ni nur bezonas kompreno. Se on > = komprenus la defino di la radiki, tale on povus facile derivar li. To esas = > la sama logiko kam ta di "eutanaziar", "nostalgiar", e.c. > > La sufixo -= ea uzesas nur kande la radiko ne expresas koloro. Pro to, on > uzas "niv-ea= " vice "niva", "oranj-ea" vice "oranja", "viol-ea" vice > "viola", e.c. > >= Nu, per ta fakto, e per la Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais, on povas dedukta= r co: > "azuro" ne expresas koloro. > "cinabro" ne expresas koloro. > "oro"= ne expresas koloro. > "purpuro" ne expresas koloro. > "violo" ne expresas = koloro. > > Se "purpuro" ne expresas koloro, nu, quon lu expresas? > > Farb= o. > > Yes, "purpuro" semblas esar farbo, ma la Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7a= is naive > skribas "koloro" sen suciar pri la difero inter sento e materio!= Tamen la > uzo di "purpur.e.a" vice "purpur.a" informas pri la naturo di l= a vorto. > > Forsan Dyer uzis simila vortaro e facis eroro pro to? Forsan? = > > Pri "skarlato", la defino da Dyer dicas ke lu esas fardo, ne koloro. Do= > "skarlat-ea" esus bona. > > Ma Dyer deskonkordas. > > Kun kordiala salut= i, > Gilles-Philippe > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 1:21 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@av= enue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > >> >> >> = Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> Damko pro co. Vu indikas vua preferi, ube posib= la. La problemo esas, >> koncize (1) en ula kazi la libri ofras nelogike nu= r substantivo por koloro >> (exemple Ido-Franca, Ido-Hispana e Pesch por "s= karlato"), sen indikar qua >> adjektivo koncernas ta koloro; (2) ke la vort= libri diferas (Ido-Germana e >> Dyer havas "skarlata" ma Dyer esas netipe n= eklara). Quale Idista skriptisti >> devas agar? Quale kompilanti di nova le= xiki devas agar? >> >> Ne esus desfacila decidar, exemple, ke "skarlat-" es= ez adjektivala. >> Lexiki imprimita nur chere ri-imprimesus, ma lexiki elek= tronikala povas tre >> chipe esar emendata. ULI devas facar decidi ... >> >= > Kordiale, >> Robert C. >> >> >> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com = [linguolisto] - Sun, 8 Jan 2017 >> 19:44:17 -0500: >> Kara Robert, >> Vu es= as justa, ke ni analizez la kolori e lia naturo gramatikala. >> Unsenceso e= sas tre grava, ed on dicernez -a de -ea. >> >> >> Yen mikra analizo di la s= ubstantivi, qui esas forsan la plu grava parto >> di vua problemo. >> >> *a= zuro:* teknikale, lu esas (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di mineralo >> (l= apislazulo) e di materio kemiala. Dyer dicas, ke lu esas nur koloro. >> Pes= ch konkordas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (LIF) deskonkordas, e dicas ke >> "azure= a" esas la koloro. Ido-English: azur-oza,* azur-ea*; English-Ido:* >> azura= *, azur-oza, azur-atra. Substantivo. Me do uzus "azurea". >> >> >> cinabr-e= a venas de* cinabro,* mineralo (kemiala segun la LIF). >> Substantivo. Me d= o uzus "cinabrea". >> >> >> granat-ea venas de* granato,* mineralo. Substan= tivo. Me do uzus >> "granatea". >> >> >> *indigo:* Quante stranja vorto! Se= gun Dyer e la LIF, lu esas amba >> materio e koloro. En la Franca, lu esas = nevariebla (*des plinthes indigo*). >> Nu, me devis serchar en dicionario F= ranca por komprenar quale on uzez lu en >> frazo Franca. Ankore, me ne esas= certa. Pesch dicas ke lu esas materio >> (farbo). Me ne savas quon uzar e = quale uzar lu... >> >> >> *karmino:* teknikale, lu esas od esis (adminime e= n la Franca) la nomo di >> materio de qua venas la koloro. La LIF deskonkor= das. Dyer ne esas klara pri >> la naturo di la substantivo. Pesch deskonkor= das. Me ne savas quon uzar... >> >> >> kastan-ea venas de* kastano,* frukto= . Substantivo. Me do uzus "kastanea". >> >> >> lilac-ea venas de* lilaco,* = arboreto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "lilacea". >> >> >> maron-ea venas de* ma= rono,* frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "maronea". >> >> >> *nakarata:* Nu! = Me judikas, ke to esas eroro, ma lu esas substantivo en >> la LIF, che Pesc= h e che Dyer (ecepte, e nur ecepte, en la Ido-Angla, qua >> semblas a me pl= u generale korekta kam la Angla-Ido). "nakarato" semblas a >> me klare esar= koloro, do lu esez adjektivo substantivigita, ne substantivo >> adjektivig= ita. Me do uzus "nakarata". >> >> >> or-ea venas de* oro,* elemento. Substa= ntivo. Me do uzus "orea". >> >> >> oranj-ea venas de* oranjo,* frukto. Subs= tantivo. Me do uzus "oranjea". >> >> >> *purpura:* Sama problemo kam* nakar= ato*. Tamen, la etimologio Franca >> indikas ke purpuro esas substanco de q= ua venas la koloro. Dyer semblas agir >> saje: la Angla* purple* esas strik= te koloro, e la LIF dicas ke "purpuro" >> esas strikte koloro, ne koloriziv= o! Me uzus sive "purpura" sive "purpurea". >> >> >> roz-ea venas de* rozo,*= floro. Substantivo. Me do uzus "rozea". >> >> >> *skarlata:* Sama problemo= kam* nakarato* e* purpuro*. La LIF e Pesch >> dicas ke "skarlato" esas kol= oro. Dyer saje indikas ke la koloro esas do >> adjektivo de qua la substant= ivo derivesas. Me do uzus "skarlata". >> >> >> *ultramaro:* Takaze Dyer pov= us semblar tre konfuza, ma la etimologio >> Franca esas klara: "ultramaro" = esas mineralo e farbo, do substantivo. >> "ultramara" esas uzata por dicar,= exemple, "ultramara farbo". "ultramarea" >> esas la koloro. Pesch konkorda= s (farbo), dum ke la LIF esas neklara >> (koloro). Me do uzus "ultramarea".= >> >> >> *umbro:* Lu esas farbo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "umbrea". >> >> >= > viol-ea venas de* violo,* planto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "violea". >> >>= >> Sume, me kredas ke la dicionario Ido-Angla da Dyer esas la maxim fidind= a >> por komprenar la kolori, ma nula dicionario esas perfekta nek tote kla= ra. >> >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 8= , 2017 at 4:54 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk >> [linguolisto] wrote: >> >> Semblas a me ke esas problemo pri ula= vorti pri kolori. Yen la >> koloro-vorti quin me trovis en diversa lexiki = (inkluzante blanka e nigra - >> kolori honorala?), ma probable esas altri. = >> >> azuro, -ea >> beja >> bistra >> blanka >> blonda >> blua >> bruna >> = cinabrea >> falva >> flava >> granatea >> griza >> indigo >> izabela >> kak= ia >> karmezina >> karmezino >> karmino, -ea >> kastanea >> lilacea >> maro= nea >> nakarata >> nakarato >> nigra >> orea >> oranjea >> ponsa >> purpura= >> purpuro >> reda >> rozea >> rufa >> skarlata >> skarlato >> ultramaro. = -a, -ea >> umbro (?) >> verda >> violea >> >> La problemo esas ke la vorti = bazala por ula kolori esas, segun nia >> lexiki, substantivi. Pluse, en pok= a kazi, esas trovebla adjektivi e >> substantivi nederivita ma kun sama rad= iko. Yen manko di logiko. >> >> Se on komencas per adjektivo, exemple "reda= ", la direte o nemediate >> derivita substantivo, "redo", reprezentas irga = kozo o persono qua esas reda. >> >> Tamen se on komencas per substantivo, e= xemple "indigo" o "nakarato", ed >> on derivas adjektivo nemediate, exemple= "nakarata", la senco dil adjektivo >> esas gramatike "ta qua esas nakarato= ", ne ta qua havas la koloro nakarato. >> Kontraste, redo ne esas koloro, m= a irga kozo reda. Esas difero inter esar >> koloro e havar koloro! >> >> Ni= mustas decidar, exemple, kad havar "purpuro, -ea" o "purpura, -(aj)o". >> = Me kredas ke omna koloro-vorti mustas esar adjektivi, exemple "reda" e >> "= skarlata", ne "reda" e "skarlato". >> >> Quale opinionas altri? >> >> Kordi= ale, >> >> Robert C. >> >> >> >> > > --f403045e57fe6c1fe00545b3e3ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*Farbo

Me pluse analizis "sk= arlato", lore per DEFIRS.

La Franca suportas amba s= enci, t.e. koloro e farbo (segun la TLFi).
La Angla suportas nur = la koloro (segun Oxford).
La Hispana suportas nur la koloro (segu= n la DLE).

Me ne tre bone komprenas la altra lingu= i, do esas tro desfacila a me verifike per li. Ma nun semblas a me klara, k= e "skarlato" esas koloro, ne farbo.

Anke, me nun komprenas pro quo Pesch eroris: lu prenis la defino en la Fra= nca=C2=A0Dictionnaire g=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral, qua ofras nur un senco ek l= a du (farbo). To esas stranja...

Konkluze, D= yer esas justa: ni uzez "skarlata".

Kun = kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Gilles= -Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
Kara Robert,
Danko pro la respondo.=

Mea antea mesajo ne havis klara expliko pri la or= igino di ula vorti. Nun me probez posibla teorio.

= Hipotezo: la kolori venas de Esperanto e, precipue, de la Fundamento da Zam= enhof.

Materii: ReVo, la Reta Vorto (http://www.reta-vortaro.d= e/revo/); Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm= ).

Metodo: analizar la radiki di Esperanto e k= omparar kun ti di la vortaro Ido-Franca. Observar se la fini di la radiki (= -a o -o) esas la sama.

Probo:
[Radiko di= Ido: radiko di Esperanto]
La radiki stelizita venas de la Fundam= ento.

azur-o: lazur/o (1-a Oficiala Aldono).
=
bej-a: tro nova vorto, ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto.
bistr-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis amba "= bistr/o" e "bistr/a".
blank-a: *blank/a.
blond-a: *blond/a.
blu-a: *blu/a.
brun-a: *brun/a.
cinabr-o: *cinabr/o.
falv-a: ne existas oficala vorto en E= speranto.
flav-a: *flav/a.
granat-o: ne existas oficala= vorto en Esperanto. La PV (1934) sugestas "grenat/o".
=
griz-a: *griz/a.
indig-o: indig/o (4-a Oficiala Aldono).
izabel-a: me ne trovis equivalanto.
kaki-a: me ne trovis e= quivalento.
karmezin-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Za= menhof uzis "karmezin/o".
karmin-o: *karmin/o.
kastan-o: *ka=C5=9Dtan/o.
lilac-o: *siring/o.
maron-o= : ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis "maron/o".=
nakarat-o: me ne trovis equivalanto.
nigr-a: *nigr/a.<= /div>
or-o: *or/o.
oranj-o: *oran=C4=9D/o.
pons-a: = *punc/a.
purpur-o: *purpur/o.
red-a: *ru=C4=9D/a.
=
roz-o: *roz/o.
ruf-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto.= La PIV di 1970 sugestas "ruf/a".
skarlat-o: *skarlat/o= .
ultramar-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzi= s "ultramar/o".
umbr-o: me ne trovis equivalanto.
=
verd-a: *verd/a.
viol-o: *viol/o.

=
Remarki:
1-me Omna adjektivi en Esperanto esas adjektivi en = Ido;
2-me Omna substantivi en Esperanto esas substantivi en Ido;<= /div>
3-me La radiki di Esperanto venas precipue (59%) de la Fundamento= .

Konkluzo: Semblas, sive ke Ido kopiis la vortofi= no di Esperanto, sive ke amba lingui havas la sama origino o la sama logiko= . Me ne esas certa ka to validigas mea hipotezo.

P= ri vua mesajo:

Me kredas ke ni bezonas nula chanjo= , ni nur bezonas kompreno. Se on komprenus la defino di la radiki, tale on = povus facile derivar li. To esas la sama logiko kam ta di "eutanaziar&= quot;, "nostalgiar", e.c.

La sufixo -ea = uzesas nur kande la radiko ne expresas koloro. Pro to, on uzas "niv-ea= " vice "niva", "oranj-ea" vice "oranja",= "viol-ea" vice "viola", e.c.

= Nu, per ta fakto, e per la Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais, on povas deduktar= co:
"azuro" ne expresas koloro.
"cinabr= o" ne expresas koloro.
"oro" ne expresas koloro.
"purpuro" ne expresas koloro.
"violo"= ; ne expresas koloro.

Se "purpuro" ne ex= presas koloro, nu, quon lu expresas?

Farbo.
<= div>
Yes, "purpuro" semblas esar farbo, ma la Vocab= ulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais naive skribas "koloro" sen suciar pri la= difero inter sento e materio! Tamen la uzo di "purpur.e.a" vice = "purpur.a" informas pri la naturo di la vorto.

Forsan Dyer uzis simila vortaro e facis eroro pro to? Forsan?
<= div>
Pri "skarlato", la defino da Dyer dicas ke lu = esas fardo, ne koloro. Do "skarlat-ea" esus bona.

<= /div>
Ma Dyer deskonkordas.

Kun kordiala salut= i,
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan = 9, 2017 at 1:21 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <= ;linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0

K= ara Gilles-Philippe,
=C2=A0
Damko pro co. Vu indikas vua preferi, ube posibla. La problemo= esas, koncize (1) en ula kazi la libri ofras nelogike nur substantivo por = koloro (exemple Ido-Franca, Ido-Hispana e Pesch por "skarlato"), = sen indikar qua adjektivo koncernas ta koloro; (2) ke la vortlibri diferas = (Ido-Germana e Dyer havas "skarlata" ma Dyer esas netipe neklara)= . Quale Idista skriptisti devas agar? Quale kompilanti di nova lexiki devas= agar?
=C2=A0
N= e esus desfacila decidar, exemple, ke "skarlat-" esez adjektivala= . Lexiki imprimita nur chere ri-imprimesus, ma lexiki elektronikala povas t= re chipe esar emendata. ULI devas facar decidi ...
=C2= =A0
Kordiale,
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">Robert C.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sun, 8 Jan 2017 19:44:17= -0500:=C2=A0
Kara Rober= t,
Vu esas justa, ke ni analizez la kolori e lia naturo gramatikala.= Unsenceso esas tre grava, ed on dicernez -a de -ea.


=
Yen mikra analizo di la substantivi, qui esas forsan la plu grava parto di= vua problemo.

azuro: teknikale, lu esas (adminime en la = Franca) la nomo di mineralo (lapislazulo) e di materio kemiala. Dyer dicas,= ke lu esas nur koloro. Pesch konkordas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (LIF) deskonk= ordas, e dicas ke "azurea" esas la koloro. Ido-English: azur-oza,= azur-ea; English-Ido: azura, azur-oza, azur-atra. Substantiv= o. Me do uzus "azurea".


cinabr-ea venas = de cinabro, mineralo (kemiala segun la LIF). Substantivo. Me do uzus= "cinabrea".
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">

granat-ea venas de granato= , mineralo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "granatea".
=

indigo: Quante stranja vorto! Segun Dyer e la LIF, lu esas= amba materio e koloro. En la Franca, lu esas nevariebla (des plinthes i= ndigo). Nu, me devis serchar en dicionario Franca por komprenar quale o= n uzez lu en frazo Franca. Ankore, me ne esas certa. Pesch dicas ke lu esas= materio (farbo). Me ne savas quon uzar e quale uzar lu...


<= /span>
karmino: teknikale, lu esas od esis (adminime en la Franca) l= a nomo di materio de qua venas la koloro. La LIF deskonkordas. Dyer ne esas= klara pri la naturo di la substantivo. Pesch deskonkordas. Me ne savas quo= n uzar...


kastan-ea venas de kastano,=C2=A0fr= ukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "kastanea".


<= /div>
= lilac-ea venas de lilaco,=C2=A0arboreto. Substantivo. Me do uzus &qu= ot;lilacea".


maron-ea venas de marono,= =C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "maronea".


<= /span>
nakarata: Nu! Me judikas, ke to esas eroro, ma lu esas substa= ntivo en la LIF, che Pesch e che Dyer (ecepte, e nur ecepte, en la Ido-Angl= a, qua semblas a me plu generale korekta kam la Angla-Ido). "nakarato&= quot; semblas a me klare esar koloro, do lu esez adjektivo substantivigita,= ne substantivo adjektivigita. Me do uzus "nakarata".

=
or-ea venas de oro,=CC2=A0elemento. Substantivo. Me do uz= us "orea".


oranj-ea venas de oranjo,=C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "oranjea".


=
purpura:=C2=A0Sama problemo kam nakarato. Tamen, la e= timologio Franca indikas ke purpuro esas substanco de qua venas la koloro. = Dyer semblas agir saje: la Angla purple=C2=A0esas strikte koloro, e = la LIF dicas ke "purpuro" esas strikte koloro, ne kolorizivo! Me = uzus sive "purpura" sive "purpurea".


roz-ea venas de rozo,=C2=A0floro. Substantivo. Me do uzus "= ;rozea".


skarlata:=C2=A0Sama problemo ka= m nakarato=C2=A0e purpuro. La LIF e Pesch dicas ke "skar= lato" esas koloro. Dyer saje indikas ke la koloro esas do adjektivo de= qua la substantivo derivesas. Me do uzus "skarlata".

=
ultramaro:=C2=A0Takazze Dyer povus semblar tre konfuza, m= a la etimologio Franca esas klara: "ultramaro" esas mineralo e fa= rbo, do substantivo. "ultramara" esas uzata por dicar, exemple, &= quot;ultramara farbo". "ultramarea" esas la koloro. Pesch ko= nkordas (farbo), dum ke la LIF esas neklara (koloro). Me do uzus "ultr= amarea".


umbro:=C2=A0Lu esas farbo. Subs= tantivo. Me do uzus "umbrea".


viol-ea vena= s de violo,=C2=A0planto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "violea".=


Sume, me kredas ke la dicionario Ido-Angla da Dyer = esas la maxim fidinda por komprenar la kolori, ma nula dicionario esas perf= ekta nek tote klara.


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gil= les-Philippe


On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Robert = Carnaghan ido@avenue.= me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
= =C2=A0
Semblas a me ke esas problemo pri ula vorti pri kolori. Yen = la koloro-vorti quin me trovis en diversa lexiki (inkluzante blanka e nigra= - kolori honorala?), ma probable esas altri.
=C2=A0
azuro, -= ea
beja
bistra
blanka
blonda
blua=
bruna
cinabrea
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">falva
flava
granatea
gri= za
indigo
izabela
kakia
karmezina
=
karmez= ino
karmino, -ea
= kastanea
lilacea
maronea
nakarata
nakarato
nigra
orea
oranjea=
ponsa
purpura
purpuro
reda
rozea
=
rufa
skarlata
skarlato
ultramaro. -a, -ea
umbro (?)
verda
violea
=C2=A0
La problemo esas ke la vort= i bazala por ula kolori esas, segun nia lexiki, substantivi. Pluse, en poka= kazi, esas trovebla adjektivi e substantivi nederivita ma kun sama radiko.= Yen manko di logiko.
=C2=A0
Se on komencas per adjektivo, ex= emple "reda", la direte o nemediate derivita substantivo, "r= edo", reprezentas irga kozo o persono qua esas reda.
=C2=A0
Tamen se on komencas per substantivo, exemple "indigo" o &quo= t;nakarato", ed on derivas adjektivo nemediate, exemple "nakarata= ", la senco dil adjektivo esas gramatike "ta qua esas nakarato&qu= ot;, ne ta qua havas la koloro nakarato. Kontraste, redo ne esas koloro, ma= irga kozo reda. Esas difero inter esar koloro e havar koloro!
=
=C2= =A0
Ni mustas decidar, exemple, kad havar "purpuro, -ea" o= "purpura, -(aj)o". Me kredas ke omna koloro-vorti mustas esar ad= jektivi, exemple "reda" e "skarlata", ne "reda&quo= t; e "skarlato".
=C2=A0
Quale opinionas altri?
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
=C2=A0
Robert C.
=C2=A0

=


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On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Gilles-Philippe= Morin wrote: > *Farbo > > Me pluse analizis "skarlat= o", lore per DEFIRS. > > La Franca suportas amba senci, t.e. koloro e farbo= (segun la TLFi). > La Angla suportas nur la koloro (segun Oxford). > La Hi= spana suportas nur la koloro (segun la DLE). > > Me ne tre bone komprenas l= a altra lingui, do esas tro desfacila a me > verifike per li. Ma nun sembla= s a me klara, ke "skarlato" esas *koloro*, > ne farbo. > > Anke, me nun kom= prenas pro quo Pesch eroris: lu prenis la defino en la > Franca *Dictionnai= re g=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral*, qua ofras nur un senco ek la du (farbo). > To esas s= tranja... > > Konkluze, Dyer esas justa: ni uzez "skarlata". > > Kun kordia= la saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Gilles-Phi= lippe Morin > wrote: > >> Kara Robert, >> Danko pro la= respondo. >> >> Mea antea mesajo ne havis klara expliko pri la origino di = ula vorti. Nun >> me probez posibla teorio. >> >> Hipotezo: la kolori venas= de Esperanto e, precipue, de la Fundamento da >> Zamenhof. >> >> Materii: = ReVo, la Reta Vorto (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/); >> Vocabulaire Ido-= Fran=C3=A7ais (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm). >> >> Metodo: analizar la= radiki di Esperanto e komparar kun ti di la vortaro >> Ido-Franca. Observa= r se la fini di la radiki (-a o -o) esas la sama. >> >> Probo: >> [Radiko d= i Ido: radiko di Esperanto] >> La radiki stelizita venas de la Fundamento. = >> >> azur-o: lazur/o (1-a Oficiala Aldono). >> bej-a: tro nova vorto, ne e= xistas oficala vorto en Esperanto. >> bistr-a: ne existas oficala vorto en = Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis amba >> "bistr/o" e "bistr/a". >> blank-a: *blank/= a. >> blond-a: *blond/a. >> blu-a: *blu/a. >> brun-a: *brun/a. >> cinabr-o:= *cinabr/o. >> falv-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. >> flav-a: *f= lav/a. >> granat-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. La PV (1934) sug= estas >> "grenat/o". >> griz-a: *griz/a. >> indig-o: indig/o (4-a Oficiala = Aldono). >> izabel-a: me ne trovis equivalanto. >> kaki-a: me ne trovis equ= ivalento. >> karmezin-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uz= is >> "karmezin/o". >> karmin-o: *karmin/o. >> kastan-o: *ka=C5=9Dtan/o. >>= lilac-o: *siring/o. >> maron-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zam= enhof uzis "maron/o". >> nakarat-o: me ne trovis equivalanto. >> nigr-a: *n= igr/a. >> or-o: *or/o. >> oranj-o: *oran=C4=9D/o. >> pons-a: *punc/a. >> pu= rpur-o: *purpur/o. >> red-a: *ru=C4=9D/a. >> roz-o: *roz/o. >> ruf-a: ne ex= istas oficala vorto en Esperanto. La PIV di 1970 sugestas >> "ruf/a". >> sk= arlat-o: *skarlat/o. >> ultramar-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. = Zamenhof uzis >> "ultramar/o". >> umbr-o: me ne trovis equivalanto. >> verd= -a: *verd/a. >> viol-o: *viol/o. >> >> Remarki: >> 1-me Omna adjektivi en E= speranto esas adjektivi en Ido; >> 2-me Omna substantivi en Esperanto esas = substantivi en Ido; >> 3-me La radiki di Esperanto venas precipue (59%) de = la Fundamento. >> >> Konkluzo: Semblas, sive ke Ido kopiis la vortofino di = Esperanto, sive ke >> amba lingui havas la sama origino o la sama logiko. M= e ne esas certa ka to >> validigas mea hipotezo. >> >> Pri vua mesajo: >> >= > Me kredas ke ni bezonas nula chanjo, ni nur bezonas kompreno. Se on >> ko= mprenus la defino di la radiki, tale on povus facile derivar li. To esas >>= la sama logiko kam ta di "eutanaziar", "nostalgiar", e.c. >> >> La sufixo = -ea uzesas nur kande la radiko ne expressas koloro. Pro to, on >> uzas "niv-= ea" vice "niva", "oranj-ea" vice "oranja", "viol-ea" vice >> "viola", e.c. = >> >> Nu, per ta fakto, e per la Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais, on povas de= duktar co: >> "azuro" ne expresas koloro. >> "cinabro" ne expresas koloro. = >> "oro" ne expresas koloro. >> "purpuro" ne expresas koloro. >> "violo" ne= expresas koloro. >> >> Se "purpuro" ne expresas koloro, nu, quon lu expres= as? >> >> Farbo. >> >> Yes, "purpuro" semblas esar farbo, ma la Vocabulaire= Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais naive >> skribas "koloro" sen suciar pri la difero inter= sento e materio! Tamen la >> uzo di "purpur.e.a" vice "purpur.a" informas = pri la naturo di la vorto. >> >> Forsan Dyer uzis simila vortaro e facis er= oro pro to? Forsan? >> >> Pri "skarlato", la defino da Dyer dicas ke lu esa= s fardo, ne koloro. Do >> "skarlat-ea" esus bona. >> >> Ma Dyer deskonkorda= s. >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 = at 1:21 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk >> [linguolisto] wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >>> >>> Damko pro = co. Vu indikas vua preferi, ube posibla. La problemo esas, >>> koncize (1) = en ula kazi la libri ofras nelogike nur substantivo por koloro >>> (exemple= Ido-Franca, Ido-Hispana e Pesch por "skarlato"), sen indikar qua >>> adjek= tivo koncernas ta koloro; (2) ke la vortlibri diferas (Ido-Germana e >>> Dy= er havas "skarlata" ma Dyer esas netipe neklara). Quale Idista skriptisti >= >> devas agar? Quale kompilanti di nova lexiki devas agar? >>> >>> Ne esus = desfacila decidar, exemple, ke "skarlat-" esez adjektivala. >>> Lexiki impr= imita nur chere ri-imprimesus, ma lexiki elektronikala povas tre >>> chipe = esar emendata. ULI devas facar decidi ... >>> >>> Kordiale, >>> Robert C. >= >> >>> >>> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sun, 8 = Jan >>> 2017 19:44:17 -0500: >>> Kara Robert, >>> Vu esas justa, ke ni anal= izez la kolori e lia naturo gramatikala. >>> Unsenceso esas tre grava, ed o= n dicernez -a de -ea. >>> >>> >>> Yen mikra analizo di la substantivi, qui = esas forsan la plu grava parto >>> di vua problemo. >>> >>> *azuro:* teknik= ale, lu esas (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di mineralo >>> (lapislazulo) = e di materio kemiala. Dyer dicas, ke lu esas nur koloro. >>> Pesch konkorda= s. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (LIF) deskonkordas, e dicas ke >>> "azurea" esas la= koloro. Ido-English: azur-oza,* azur-ea*; English-Ido:* >>> azura*, azur-o= za, azur-atra. Substantivo. Me do uzus "azurea". >>> >>> >>> cinabr-ea vena= s de* cinabro,* mineralo (kemiala segun la LIF). >>> Substantivo. Me do uzu= s "cinabrea". >>> >>> >>> granat-ea venas de* granato,* mineralo. Substanti= vo. Me do uzus >>> "granatea". >>> >>> >>> *indigo:* Quante stranja vorto! = Segun Dyer e la LIF, lu esas amba >>> materio e koloro. En la Franca, lu es= as nevariebla (*des plinthes >>> indigo*). Nu, me devis serchar en dicionar= io Franca por komprenar quale >>> on uzez lu en frazo Franca. Ankore, me ne= esas certa. Pesch dicas ke lu >>> esas materio (farbo). Me ne savas quon u= zar e quale uzar lu... >>> >>> >>> *karmino:* teknikale, lu esas od esis (a= dminime en la Franca) la nomo >>> di materio de qua venas la koloro. La LIF= deskonkordas. Dyer ne esas klara >>> pri la naturo di la substantivo. Pesc= h deskonkordas. Me ne savas quon >>> uzar... >>> >>> >>> kastan-ea venas de= * kastano,* frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus >>> "kastanea". >>> >>> >>> lil= ac-ea venas de* lilaco,* arboreto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "lilacea". >>> >= >> >>> maron-ea venas de* marono,* frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "maronea= ". >>> >>> >>> *nakarata:* Nu! Me judikas, ke to esas eroro, ma lu esas sub= stantivo en >>> la LIF, che Pesch e che Dyer (ecepte, e nur ecepte, en la I= do-Angla, qua >>> semblas a me plu generale korekta kam la Angla-Ido). "nak= arato" semblas a >>> me klare esar koloro, do lu esez adjektivo substantivi= gita, ne substantivo >>> adjektivigita. Me do uzus "nakarata". >>> >>> >>> = or-ea venas de* oro,* elemento. Substantivo. Me do uzus "orea". >>> >>> >>>= oranj-ea venas de* oranjo,* frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "oranjea". >>>= >>> >>> *purpura:* Sama problemo kam* nakarato*. Tamen, la etimologio Fran= ca >>> indikas ke purpuro esas substanco de qua venas la koloro. Dyer sembl= as agir >>> saje: la Angla* purple* esas strikte koloro, e la LIF dicas ke = >>> "purpuro" esas strikte koloro, ne kolorizivo! Me uzus sive "purpura" si= ve >>> "purpurea". >>> >>> >>> roz-ea venas de* rozo,* floro. Substantivo. = Me do uzus "rozea". >>> >>> >>> *skarlata:* Sama problemo kam* nakarato* e*= purpuro*. La LIF e Pesch >>> dicas ke "skarlato" esas koloro. Dyer saje in= dikas ke la koloro esas do >>> adjektivo de qua la substantivo derivesas. M= e do uzus "skarlata". >>> >>> >>> *ultramaro:* Takaze Dyer povus semblar tr= e konfuza, ma la etimologio >>> Franca esas klara: "ultramaro" esas mineral= o e farbo, do substantivo. >>> "ultramara" esas uzata por dicar, exemple, "= ultramara farbo". "ultramarea" >>> esas la koloro. Pesch konkordas (farbo),= dum ke la LIF esas neklara >>> (koloro). Me do uzus "ultramarea". >>> >>> = >>> *umbro:* Lu esas farbo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "umbrea". >>> >>> >>> v= iol-ea venas de* violo,* planto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "violea". >>> >>> = >>> Sume, me kredas ke la dicionario Ido-Angla da Dyer esas la maxim fidind= a >>> por komprenar la kolori, ma nula dicionario esas perfekta nek tote kl= ara. >>> >>> >>> Kun kordiala saluti, >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> >>> >>> On Su= n, Jan 8, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk >>> [linguolis= to] wrote: >>> >>> Semblas a me ke esas probl= emo pri ula vorti pri kolori. Yen la >>> koloro-vorti quin me trovis en div= ersa lexiki (inkluzante blanka e nigra - >>> kolori honorala?), ma probable= esas altri. >>> >>> azuro, -ea >>> beja >>> bistra >>> blanka >>> blonda >= >> blua >>> bruna >>> cinabrea >>> falva >>> flava >>> granatea >>> griza >= >> indigo >>> izabela >>> kakia >>> karmezina >>> karmezino >>> karmino, -e= a >>> kastanea >>> lilacea >>> maronea >>> nakarata >>> nakarato >>> nigra = >>> orea >>> oranjea >>> ponsa >>> purpura >>> purpuro >>> reda >>> rozea >= >> rufa >>> skarlata >>> skarlato >>> ultramaro. -a, -ea >>> umbro (?) >>> = verda >>> violea >>> >>> La problemo esas ke la vorti bazala por ula kolori= esas, segun nia >>> lexiki, substantivi. Pluse, en poka kazi, esas trovebl= a adjektivi e >>> substantivi nederivita ma kun sama radiko. Yen manko di l= ogiko. >>> >>> Se on komencas per adjektivo, exemple "reda", la direte o ne= mediate >>> derivita substantivo, "redo", reprezentas irga kozo o persono q= ua esas reda. >>> >>> Tamen se on komencas per substantivo, exemple "indigo= " o "nakarato", ed >>> on derivas adjektivo nemediate, exemple "nakarata", = la senco dil adjektivo >>> esas gramatike "ta qua esas nakarato", ne ta qua= havas la koloro nakarato. >>> Kontraste, redo ne esas koloro, ma irga kozo= reda. Esas difero inter esar >>> koloro e havar koloro! >>> >>> Ni mustas = decidar, exemple, kad havar "purpuro, -ea" o "purpura, >>> -(aj)o". Me kred= as ke omna koloro-vorti mustas esar adjektivi, exemple >>> "reda" e "skarla= ta", ne "reda" e "skarlato". >>> >>> Quale opinionas altri? >>> >>> Kordial= e, >>> >>> Robert C. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > --001a114b0af4b52f790545b42de0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Segun la dicionario International-English (1908):
&quo= t;skarlata" esas la radiko e "skarlato" derivesas de lu;"purpuro" esas "purple" dum ke "purpura" esa= s l'adjektivo;
"indigo" anke aparas sen adjekti= vo;
amba "ultramaro" e "ultramara" esas &= quot;ultramarine".
On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Gilles-Philippe= Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
*Farbo

Me pluse ana= lizis "skarlato", lore per DEFIRS.

La Franca s= uportas amba senci, t.e. koloro e farbo (segun la TLFi).
La Angla= suportas nur la koloro (segun Oxford).
La Hispana suportas nur l= a koloro (segun la DLE).

Me ne tre bone komprenas = la altra lingui, do esas tro desfacila a me verifike per li. Ma nun semblas= a me klara, ke "skarlato" esas koloro, ne farbo.
=
Anke, me nun komprenas pro quo Pesch eroris: lu prenis la de= fino en la Franca=C2=A0Dictionnaire g=C3=A9n=C3=A9ral, qua ofras nur= un senco ek la du (farbo). To esas stranja...

Konkluze, Dyer esas justa: ni uzez "skarlata".

<= /div>
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <g= phmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">Kara Robert,
Danko pro la respondo.

Mea antea mesajo ne havis klara expliko pri la origino di ula vorti. = Nun me probez posibla teorio.

Hipotezo: la kolori = venas de Esperanto e, precipue, de la Fundamento da Zamenhof.
Materii: ReVo, la Reta Vorto (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/); V= ocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm).
Metodo: analizar la radiki di Esperanto e komparar kun ti di la= vortaro Ido-Franca. Observar se la fini di la radiki (-a o -o) esas la sam= a.

Probo:
[Radiko di Ido: radiko di Espe= ranto]
La radiki stelizita venas de la Fundamento.

=
azur-o: lazur/o (1-a Oficiala Aldono).
bej-a: tro nova= vorto, ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto.
bistr-a: ne exista= s oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis amba "bistr/o" e &quo= t;bistr/a".
blank-a: *blank/a.
blond-a: *blond/a.<= /div>
blu-a: *blu/a.
brun-a: *brun/a.
cinabr-o: *ci= nabr/o.
falv-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto.
= flav-a: *flav/a.
granat-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto.= La PV (1934) sugestas "grenat/o".
griz-a: *griz/a= .
indig-o: indig/o (4-a Oficiala Aldono).
izabel-a: me = ne trovis equivalanto.
kaki-a: me ne trovis equivalento.
karmezin-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis "ka= rmezin/o".
karmin-o: *karmin/o.
kastan-o: *ka=C5= =9Dtan/o.
lilac-o: *siring/o.
maron-o: ne existas ofica= la vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis "maron/o".
nakarat= -o: me ne trovis equivalanto.
>nigr-a: *nigr/a.
or-o: *o= r/o.
oranj-o: *oran=C4=9D/o.
pons-a: *punc/a.
purpur-o: *purpur/o.
red-a: *ru=C4=9D/a.
roz-o: *roz/o= .
ruf-a: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. La PIV di 1970 su= gestas "ruf/a".
skarlat-o: *skarlat/o.
ultram= ar-o: ne existas oficala vorto en Esperanto. Zamenhof uzis "ultramar/o= ".
umbr-o: me ne trovis equivalanto.
verd-a: *verd= /a.
viol-o: *viol/o.

Remarki:
1-me Omna adjektivi en Esperanto esas adjektivi en Ido;
2-m= e Omna substantivi en Esperanto esas substantivi en Ido;
3-me La = radiki di Esperanto venas precipue (59%) de la Fundamento.

Konkluzo: Semblas, sive ke Ido kopiis la vortofino di Esperanto, s= ive ke amba lingui havas la sama origino o la sama logiko. Me ne esas certa= ka to validigas mea hipotezo.

Pri vua mesajo:

Me kredas ke ni bezonas nula chanjo, ni nur bezonas k= ompreno. Se on komprenus la defino di la radiki, tale on povus facile deriv= ar li. To esas la sama logiko kam ta di "eutanaziar", "nosta= lgiar", e.c.

La sufixo -ea uzesas nur kande l= a radiko ne expresas koloro. Pro to, on uzas "niv-ea" vice "= niva", "oranj-ea" vice "oranja", "viol-ea&quo= t; vice "viola", e.c.

Nu, per ta fakto, = e per la Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3=A7ais, on povas deduktar co:
&qu= ot;azuro" ne expresas koloro.
"cinabro" ne expresa= s koloro.
"oro" ne expresas koloro.
"pur= puro" ne expresas koloro.
"violo" ne expresas kolo= ro.

Se "purpuro" ne expresas koloro, nu,= quon lu expresas?

Farbo.

Yes, "purpuro" semblas esar farbo, ma la Vocabulaire Ido-Fran=C3= =A7ais naive skribas "koloro" sen suciar pri la difero inter sent= o e materio! Tamen la uzo di "purpur.e.a" vice "purpur.a&quo= t; informas pri la naturo di la vorto.

Forsan Dyer= uzis simila vortaro e facis eroro pro to? Forsan?

Pri "skarlato", la defino da Dyer dicas ke lu esas fardo, ne kol= oro. Do "skarlat-ea" esus bona.

Ma Dyer = deskonkordas.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gille= s-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 1:21 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguo= listo] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_-5838635877158548374m_7994383319910187641m_-1341339397880309532= ygrp-msg">

Kara Gilles-Philippe,
=C2=A0
Damko pro co. Vu indikas vua preferi, ube= posibla. La problemo esas, koncize (1) en ula kazi la libri ofras nelogike= nur substantivo por koloro (exemple Ido-Franca, Ido-Hispana e Pesch por &q= uot;skarlato"), sen indikar qua adjektivo koncernas ta koloro; (2) ke = la vortlibri diferas (Ido-Germana e Dyer havas "skarlata" ma Dyer= esas netipe neklara). Quale Idista skriptisti devas agar? Quale kompilanti= di nova lexiki devas agar?
=C2=A0
Ne esus desfacila decidar, exemple, ke "skarlat-&q= uot; esez adjektivala. Lexiki imprimita nur chere ri-imprimesus, ma lexiki = elektronikala povas tre chipe esar emendata. ULI devas facar decidi ...
=C2=A0
Kordiale,<= /span>
Robert C.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sun, 8= Jan 2017 19:44:17 -0500:=C2=A0
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">Kara Robert,
Vu esas justa, ke ni anal= izez la kolori e lia naturo gramatikala. Unsenceso esas tre grava, ed on di= cernez -a de -ea.


Yen mikra analizo di la substantiv= i, qui esas forsan la plu grava parto di vua problemo.

azuro:= teknikale, lu esas (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di mineralo (lapisl= azulo) e di materio kemiala. Dyer dicas, ke lu esas nur koloro. Pesch konko= rdas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (LIF) deskonkordas, e dicas ke "azurea"= ; esas la koloro. Ido-English: azur-oza, azur-ea; English-Ido: az= ura, azur-oza, azur-atra. Substantivo. Me do uzus "azurea".


cinabr-ea venas de cinabro, mineralo (kemiala = segun la LIF). Substantivo. Me do uzus "cinabrea".
<= div style=3D"background-color:white">
granat-ea venas de granato, mineralo. Substantivo. Me do uz= us "granatea".


indigo: Quante stran= ja vorto! Segun Dyer e la LIF, lu esas amba materio e koloro. En la Franca,= lu esas nevariebla (des plinthes indigo). Nu, me devis serchar en d= icionario Franca por komprenar quale on uzez lu en frazo Franca. Ankore, me= ne esas certa. Pesch dicas ke lu esas materio (farbo). Me ne savas quon uz= ar e quale uzar lu...


karmino: teknikale, lu = esas od esis (adminime en la Franca) la nomo di materio de qua venas la kol= oro. La LIF deskonkordas. Dyer ne esas klara pri la naturo di la substantiv= o. Pesch deskonkordas. Me ne savas quon uzar...
kast= an-ea venas de kastano,=C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "k= astanea".


lilac-ea venas de lilaco,=C2= =A0arboreto. Substantivo. Me do uzus "lilacea".


maron-ea venas de marono,=C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzus= "maronea".


nakarata: Nu! Me judika= s, ke to esas eroro, ma lu esas substantivo en la LIF, che Pesch e che Dyer= (ecepte, e nur ecepte, en la Ido-Angla, qua semblas a me plu generale kore= kta kam la Angla-Ido). "nakarato" semblas a me klare esar koloro,= do lu esez adjektivo substantivigita, ne substantivo adjektivigita. Me do = uzus "nakarata".


or-ea venas de oro,=C2=A0elemento. Substantivo. Me do uzus "orea".


<= /span>
oranj-ea venas de oranjo,=C2=A0frukto. Substantivo. Me do uzu= s "oranjea".
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">

purpura:=C2=A0Sama pro= blemo kam nakarato. Tamen, la etimologio Franca indikas ke purpuro e= sas substanco de qua venas la koloro. Dyer semblas agir saje: la Angla p= urple=C2=A0esas strikte koloro, e la LIF dicas ke "purpuro" e= sas strikte koloro, ne kolorizivo! Me uzus sive "purpura" sive &q= uot;purpurea".


roz-ea venas de rozo,=C2= =A0floro. Substantivo. Me do uzus "rozea".


=
skarlata:=C2=A0Sama problemo kam nakarato=C2=A0e purpuro<= /b>. La LIF e Pesch dicas ke "skarlato" esas koloro. Dyer saje in= dikas ke la koloro esas do adjektivo de qua la substantivo derivesas. Me do= uzus "skarlata".


ultramaro:=C2=A0T= akaze Dyer povus semblar tre konfuza, ma la etimologio Franca esas klara: &= quot;ultramaro" esas mineralo e farbo, do substantivo. "ultramara= " esas uzata por dicar, exemple, "ultramara farbo". "ul= tramarea" esas la koloro. Pesch konkordas (farbo), dum ke la LIF esas = neklara (koloro). Me do uzus "ultramarea".


=
umbro:=C2=A0Lu esas farbo. Substantivo. Me do uzus "umbrea&quo= t;.


viol-ea venas de violo,=C2=A0planto. Subs= tantivo. Me do uzus "violea".


Sume, me kre= das ke la dicionario Ido-Angla da Dyer esas la maxim fidinda por komprenar = la kolori, ma nula dicionario esas perfekta nek tote klara.


=
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


<= /div>
= On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 4:54 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
Semblas a me ke esas p= roblemo pri ula vorti pri kolori. Yen la koloro-vorti quin me trovis en div= ersa lexiki (inkluzante blanka e nigra - kolori honorala?), ma probable esa= s altri.
=C2=A0
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">azuro, -ea
beja
bistra
b= lanka
blonda
blua
bruna
cinabrea
<= div style=3D"background-color:white">falva
flava
granatea
griza
indigo
izabela
kakia
karmezina
karmezino
karmino, -ea
=
kasta= nea
lilacea
maronea
nakarata
nakarato<= /div>
= nigra
orea
oranjea
ponsa
purpura
<= div style=3D"background-color:white">purpuro=
reda
rozea
rufa
skarlata
skarlato
ultramaro. -a, -ea
umbro (?)
verda
violea
= =C2=A0
La problemo esas ke la vorti bazala por ula kolori esas, segu= n nia lexiki, substantivi. Pluse, en poka kazi, esas trovebla adjektivi e s= ubstantivi nederivita ma kun sama radiko. Yen manko di logiko.
=
=C2= =A0
Se on komencas per adjektivo, exemple "reda", la diret= e o nemediate derivita substantivo, "redo", reprezentas irga kozo= o persono qua esas reda.
=C2=A0
Tamen se on komencas per sub= stantivo, exemple "indigo" o "nakarato", ed on derivas = adjektivo nemediate, exemple "nakarata", la senco dil adjektivo e= sas gramatike "ta qua esas nakarato", ne ta qua havas la koloro n= akarato. Kontraste, redo ne esas koloro, ma irga kozo reda. Esas difero int= er esar koloro e havar koloro!
=C2=A0
Ni mustas decidar, exem= ple, kad havar "purpuro, -ea" o "purpura, -(aj)o". Me k= redas ke omna koloro-vorti mustas esar adjektivi, exemple "reda" = e "skarlata", ne "reda" e "skarlato".<= /div>
= =C2=A0
Quale opinionas altri?
=C2=A0
Kordiale,=
=C2=A0
Robert C.
=C2=A0


=
--001a114b0af4b52f790545b42de0-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4736 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 52016 invoked by uid 102); 10 Jan 2017 03:34:12 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m14.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2017 03:34:12 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 25015 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2017 03:34:12 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.81) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2017 03:34:12 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.49 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: otmZ8YcWLDvzl9S0.37T.w3o1dky36u8JDb5yCOefM_KFsJI lpVfKO_VSA04Dy4Ih.ux9XkLJQSqRnu3mlzkM.4CLZvJJZdWcAjoT4kkQCKZ 4LRZpXIefkWG6D.NYmOr3yuIXO.UpuM8IV8EA3JKBuEuf4jxWA86DNSlv2F6 gxriLzkIytHQ5lTPmmCdbhIZFHtTAhDOvxuKAYKQbQxoLGFADtBOv07OKEt8 FqFkBYVtSHr0yAXf96b0gkuaraiijRwcIZB1LNH33hwgqvc2ssKwyCJ2MZiD 3lYokDiazNMt8Pgr5TYR3JazqU8ahmyxldOCW.V4IX1k.JQ_OoEiv7usfFOW eTU58f0VriXVnNzaSNN2qq37sXoB3kpC7hLJ8UmlNRvT9NgUIgdtA0japoU5 Jths__nf9oTlFHHTrw1bqC7dctGW9x1cOsQudpaCD4CtIAfIN6tyt._e7Dpz Na31LwdKuIurEKdJFhBgKe3dfpwCltGEqKoEaV495KOcmV17HNljl61nfw.s TSXQREUHNIyBdLtpZ.zQyn8pSY8evPfzRKdQKvU9UMq6xG9zOHcE8yC7w.vs uTi3lVaMBtRqK8wUYI0qFApokFQ90dmKEB7USjWYN7OLkmBASLmIKYbAq6vw 9sBDZgYPEAIPLNjaxRdI2EFpiXBfcffbax.fQAx7z3UPNE4XRG.0eXuxo4yb IZU2av.Y5cTIWSdvh4Htt1B4mWZI.W738yTFy2AQ5.4mt.KBdSFci1OKs76T GVJYGRjTI02U3e7GMIHQi51i4IhPZgSIGspi8zAdX7Xp.jB9XrmtVXWI1Loi FkRzlugN7U.GhjB0JYcKW2Z3iTctgPmRRJmGfPsscpFwyFuZYPGW662wWjE. 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Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-08 9:11 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philip= pe Morin : > "cianogeno" ya esas internaciona, tale qu= ale "hidrogeno" (ma qua havas la > sinonimo plu kurta "hido" strikte cienca= la) e "oxigeno" (qua anke havas la > sinonimo plu kurta "oxo" strikte cienc= ala). > > Nu, me komprenas pro quo on selektis "ciano" se me sequas la deri= vado di > Dyer: > cian-o =3D cyanogen > cian-a =3D cyanic > cian-ido =3D cy= anide (Yes, mem se -id- esas kustumale por homi!) > cian-ato =3D cyanate > = > Tamen, me vidas nula informo pri -id- e -at-... Ka li esas oficala? > > G= illes-Philippe > > P.S. Me jus trovis la vorto "cyanean" en la Angla. > > 2= 017-01-08 6:56 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < > linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> Yen ke "ciana", forsan, ne esus problemo, = se ni havus "cianogeno", vice >> "ciano", quale che nia precipua fonto-ling= ui. Ka "cianogeno" e "ciano" esas >> lo sama? Se yes, pro quo selektesis ol= ca e ne olta? Ka pro lua kurteso? Ka >> pro ke on ne ja previdabis aparta n= omo por ta konkreta verd-blua koloro? Se >> ni duros uzar "ciano", yen ke "= ciana" e "cianea" ("qua esas ciano" e >> "cian-kolora") semblas a me esar n= e-konvenanta (maxim aparte pro ke "ciano" >> ne havas koloro). Do, se ni ko= nservos "ciano" (vice "cianogeno"), me >> previdas por la koloro nur ulo qu= al la mencionita "verd-blua", od ulo qual >> "ciyana" (formo ne nur Turkatr= a, ma anke Slavatra ed Esperantatra). Anke >> ca-kaze, plusa opinioni esas = bonvenanta. >> >> (Partaka) >> >> >> > > --001a113f8fa43a25f00545b52832 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ka la vorto "poliomielito", adoptita en 1979 vic= e "poliomyelito", ne konfirmas mea teorio pri la naturala desapar= o di la litero "y", e ne suportas mielito* e mielino*?

Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-08 9:11 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmo= rin@gmail.com>:
"cianogeno" ya esas internaciona, tale quale "hidrogen= o" (ma qua havas la sinonimo plu kurta "hido" strikte cienca= la) e "oxigeno" (qua anke havas la sinonimo plu kurta "oxo&q= uot; strikte ciencala).

Nu, me komprenas pro quo on sele= ktis "ciano" se me sequas la derivado di Dyer:
cian-o = =3D cyanogen
cian-a =3D cyanic
cian-ido =3D cyanide (Ye= s, mem se -id- esas kustumale por homi!)
cian-ato =3D cyanate

Tamen, me vidas nula informo pri -id- e -at-... Ka li= esas oficala?
Gilles-Philippe

P.S. Me = jus trovis la vorto "cyanean" en la Angla.

2017-01-08 6:56 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Yen ke &q= uot;ciana", forsan, ne esus problemo, se ni havus "cianogeno"= ;, vice "ciano", quale che nia precipua fonto-lingui. Ka "ci= anogeno" e "ciano" esas lo sama? Se yes, pro quo selektesis = olca e ne olta? Ka pro lua kurteso? Ka pro ke on ne ja previdabis aparta no= mo por ta konkreta verd-blua koloro? Se ni duros uzar "ciano", ye= n ke "ciana" e "cianea" ("qua esas ciano" e &= quot;cian-kolora") semblas a me esar ne-konvenanta (maxim aparte pro k= e "ciano" ne havas koloro). Do, se ni konservos "ciano"= (vice "cianogeno"), me previdas por la koloro nur ulo qual la me= ncionita "verd-blua", od ulo qual "ciyana" (formo ne nu= r Turkatra, ma anke Slavatra ed Esperantatra). Anke ca-kaze, plusa opinioni= esas bonvenanta.=C2=A0


<= /span>
=C2=A0(Partaka)



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Kara samideani,
Me deziras savar, ka la prefixo "= auto-" esas oficala. Me trovis lu en la Wikivortaro:

Tamen me ne trovas lu en la Lexiko di N= ova Vorti.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-P= hilippe
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u=347562246 From: "Robert C."
Ol ne esas en LNV nam ol ne esas nova. Ol ja esis en adminime sis lexiki.
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 9 Jan 2017 23:41:13 -0500: 
Kara samideani,
Me deziras savar, ka la prefixo "auto-" esas oficala. Me trovis lu en la Wikivortaro:


Tamen me ne trovas lu en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti.


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
 
From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4740 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 53398 invoked by uid 102); 10 Jan 2017 22:36:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m16.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2017 22:36:40 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 1906 invoked from network); 10 Jan 2017 22:36:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jan 2017 22:36:40 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.46 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: ED6WgNYWLDu13TEyT.Hh6H.zQ8T9KCN2R.ZLvLbH6HW1qlVs or_FuQImivKMeApWrdNC7XGR4coYe.P1Bf_FeyejytZen9QWCU_Mc5g40lLZ PCxP9P0FQaJXfCEgpHkWB3didK4k3nt78S3r3C5mqdwf2KXHqnLeOS0FyQM1 jLfGsNEQQGnrUclTgcuislN3ZVAM_3Ml8gFvpSx18gI0mgOyyXd0tA4mRTQ3 rbq1sqWhZuEIexIQ98IH6abA5qBa3AXKuZPbI2OkJDp9Sy1ff7acQ2U4lQx7 b7Dbuq6L29_NL__vT26TEjj9VgSR5L59IPxVueHMuYYJYKwzCAmMdbTow1lc L1IdPmAPt3nZyipDH1WDfP6roQ.WEazyGxThEHFePBlK8ipiEleFQJR.LRTk bXovOo6U9lR9MNxYZk.2oQfbIIHA2l..BK_BASZEmfP0bgoOmAiGnFcvcXDA TIB60.KDjALYH.EIFAWUFTPDDSrptqj_8ujsKxRgX_pqfaU4zOHpWz0LJ0_X ncgPIhXmeMNl8vJ.cQB8gQ.65GFWZHn8m1dTcRawS_7ITSjYae_znfwWqNnT NdeNYjDVIlL0O.zCXGLO0E4JfTPDNqurcKboQD1vQvSXWDoDH7timAgi.JQW VJNNDgZ_dhA_5UfjzwdHMHvCygCNr1NdmkK9XvLR2rdgFIcW40iDRY43rhea zWQdJrEdhO9si5LKepuQ7nbNyyp.iXizghSWBa9uXy4yJM6FiWGrtARsoKWX ciYntxoYMAmE4csCRVlaM8paCtLPpVUFs7D6m.kQ.TM7rZ7FIcyZJeoztiVx 1LKIkOOWUmZLVNdr8mg7u1kdWoohQBwJTSizaqrRz5N3r_Lbu3FmltGfZms0 dWd5tJgxREZgLTJGQ5SWSj6vr2pRXxbIC95iipKGEOHrr7wI7o9Bdkk8CrhW kW4LJP6rk17ADYtx5FI3Nlg9uDEH9d2qqJQGi5IAkB5dTftF7IaxXnVZbh4t 1OpGEVd1m_eow.S1meawLs0gXMbBHmpo_9h9WP5iiOitn0BseZQvoU6c8KR_ 0j1GGkwF8DHMXcUm9to8oY_2CUxfc8ALqT1J7beOXiZzVbumFv6S21uCnzvp KmqehfXapb0p2iw3iktmn4gEyM2nDx3BGDLp9lot71BOJRMw0P5Rz4e3hiJW OcHdO_UINeL8Quu8fYyjBjFJ.9TRp1Ew66r9QZbOL.N6dSCUDqe_wOJksnsy Kdz2okJ4DcNleZttymagpxffpOZ16iokmEcN8K_FOwXIhgmxPzs075Aaszy9 4uDMS.rM9BQJJzIBG8hE5L4ab2.RPk.oicieYRbWmKj7ESETwVkNXvvfReKS 8XgDzSn3OCBnb_kWpsjUh8c6PufJQqCI01uxpQt9eu0vI5Dc.6NZMllFqEfP PbhNFRedCHb7eRCIP1v9eoXAGcssos9ps5Zp75IwxJQJulDECgd_nST978RD An2Zcxvv2x4T_26KHgB82wqgqxq.pS34KN_DnnYKUl5vDkw0SOKpLq1omw8f FIC51uCHB4AMht8- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f46.google.com) (209.85.215.46) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 10 Jan 2017 22:36:39 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f46.google.com with SMTP id o140so70298468lff.3 for ; Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:36:39 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=D5sAz7FNpK8kQnYVMim4CYn6uxuG3gbbvU8+/PH8OX0=; b=K9GTZO1OB+B5aF4jX+kLN8vePnJw6gE5OgiiOVrAjmIjx2He+T/s1HJF/1rjmbdXvz x3E7cGQqLvlslX1OyD5eW98/AzhafZkpcPwRSTfvcQX0lCgoKSjLauTD5OEkXAphZffi bkgg4+zqLDCKIyNojDsdY/xkcEs/IjTbImmWL9B/yVKeUkX2efjSTWBLMCZXFpyAbjS8 DlowEkBwjNDuSawNSo5Qx6xE+t5H/4H16SvQOUGR+E82CNDLt7v3apG5WnSIKCnkm10A 9TJJ4VjRGoLd13/h3qbBAzOy+irFlYpYI6sfX8nHnBfbGykWzWWeCOLSTGVUDcbR1lT3 h/TA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXL6ZgxU9lPlotwp81p1sbvq1Rq37jTdMuU8D0sbEghwdeUTTUC/CJQMzHo1na2sn4/ol0ouB2472YmpFA== X-Received: by 10.46.7.10 with SMTP id 10mr2153627ljh.60.1484087798192; Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:36:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Jan 2017 14:36:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201711021955.640949@D9B5MN3J> References: <201711021955.640949@D9B5MN3J> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:36:37 -0500 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec3c206de490545c51e07 Subject: Re: [linguo] Prefixo "auto-" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec3c206de490545c51e07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ha! Lu ya esas en la Kompleta Gramatiko, kom prefixo qua repulsesis "kom pr= efixo generale aplikebla, ed adoptesis kom prefixo rezervenda a la ciencala= e teknikala terminaro". To certe explikas pro quo lu esas nek en la Compl= ete Manual nek che Dyer (1922). Danko pro la informo, Gilles-Philippe On = Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 4:09 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Ol ne esas en LNV nam ol ne esas = nova. Ol ja esis en adminime sis lexiki. > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > > Gill= es-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 9 Jan 2017 > 23:4= 1:13 -0500: > Kara samideani, > Me deziras savar, ka la prefixo "auto-" esa= s oficala. Me trovis lu en la > Wikivortaro: > https://io.wiktionary.org/wi= ki/auto. > > > > Tamen me ne trovas lu en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. > > > Ku= n kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > > --f403045ec3c206de490545c51e07 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ha! Lu ya esas en la Kompleta Gramatiko, kom prefixo = qua repulsesis "kom prefixo generale aplikebla, ed adoptesis kom prefi= xo rezervenda a la ciencala e teknikala terminaro".

To certe explikas pro quo lu esas nek en la Complete Manual nek che Dyer = (1922).

Danko pro la informo,
Gilles-Philippe<= /div>

On Tue= , Jan 10, 2017 at 4:09 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0

Ol ne esas en LNV nam ol ne esas nova. Ol ja esis en adminime sis lexiki.<= /span>
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0
=C2= =A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 9 Jan 2017 23:41:13 -050= 0:=C2=A0
Kara samideani,
Me deziras sa= var, ka la prefixo "auto-" esas oficala. Me trovis lu en la Wikiv= ortaro:


=
Tamen me ne trovas lu en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti.


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
=C2=A0

=
=

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Ube esas "aerpinselo" che Roze?= aktina: forsan F actinique E actinic, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena defino= : "Dicesas pri radiaco qua facas ago kemiala ye diversa substanci." alegret= o: Me ne savas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca ( http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) ha= vas "alegr-eto". Ka to importas? alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptesis: http:= //interlanguages.net/aster.html alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "alkaraveo"= . Me ne savas de ube to venas. aktina: Me ne vidas lu... amebocita: certe "= amebocito". Tala vorto ne falas de la cielo. analitika: segun Dyer, "analit= iko" e "analitikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca ( http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.ht= m) konkordas. "Andora" esas en Dyer. Quo esas la problemo kun "api-pomo"? Q= uale "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kapro", lu esas sat internaciona. aplanatika: = segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo pri la ofica= ligo di ta vorti. apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya "apokromata". Nu, to esas ev= identa. arterito: *arteriito esas neoficala segun Dyer. Me trovis nulo pri = la oficaligo di ta vorti. *arterito esas plu internaciona (EFIS). Nu, varte= z! Me ya trovis ulo pri la oficaligo di "arterito": http://interlanguages.n= et/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranje mencionas "arterito" vice "arteriito= " (tale quale "alkado"). astrofiziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dyer (cf. *= astro*). Ultre to, me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di *astrofiziko. astroid= a: astr-oida. atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (regiono en Grekia) + -ismo =3D= Atik-ismo =3D atikismo (Dyer ne konservis la mayuskulo en derivaji: angora= -kapro, anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retorikala. autogamo: autogama. Dyer an= kore eroris kun "agam-o", ma lu korektigis la eroro. autokrona: autokroma, = quaze certe. bekafigo: bekafiko, segun Dyer. bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer (= cf. *barnacle*). Komparez *ter-pomo*, *mar-hundo*, e.c. Botna: quo esas Bot= nia? boyardo: boyaro, segun Dyer. bromuro: nu, "bromido" esas oficala depos= 2001... centigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. l= a sistemo da Celsius. centrolecito: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vidas probl= emo kun ta vorto... Tamen, me ne komprenas la "centrolecit-ala" qua trovesa= s en la dicionario da Konstantin Yegupov: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_= dictionary_web/ ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke lu esas neoficala. On ofi= caligis lu kom "ciliara": http://interlanguages.net/aster.html cinetiko: Dy= er havas amba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu definesas kom "kinetic (energy)", d= o "kinetiko" esas *energio* (kinetika), tale quale "potencialo" (energio po= tenciala) o "kaloro" (energio termala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://= idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm), lu esas "mekanikala" vorto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9so= r (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala senco esas = adjektivo. Tamen, forsan Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze cherpis la= defino di la substantivo de ula dicionario. decidua: Ha! ha! ha! Pesch pre= nis la defino di la Franca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice "caduque". Mem la defino subs= tantivala di "caduque" esas preske celita en la Tr=C3=A9sor: http://www.cnr= tl.fr/definition/caduque. deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pesch, di la Lex= iko di Nova Vorti e di la Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer". deturnar: de-turnar, seg= un Dyer. devenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, "de-venar"! Kun kordiala saluti= , Gilles-Philippe On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@ave= nue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Yen ula= vorti problemoza, pro ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defini esas > trovita= , o pro altra ne-certeso. > > aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pinselo? > aktina (B) = > alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)? > alkado (P) > alkaldo > alkaraneo (B) > = amebocita (B). amebocito? > analitika (HP). analitik-ala? > Andoro (G). And= ora > api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo. > aplanatika (P) > ap= okromatra (B). apokromata? > arterito (P). arteriito? > astrofiziko (HP). a= stro-fiziko? > astroida (P) > atik-ismo (G). atikajo? > autogamo (B). autog= ama? > autokrona (B). autokroma? > bekafigo (P). bekafiko? > bernaklo-muslo= (D). > Botna (H). Botnia? > boyardo (P). boyaro? > bromuro (H). bromido? >= centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!) > centrolecito (P) > ciliaro (P); = ciliara (JH) > cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika (DFGJH) > decidua (= P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?) > deflegmar (ARHP). Senco? > deturnar (FJH)= ; de-turnar (D). > devenar (FJHG). de-venar? > > Fonti: > A =3D Lexiko di N= ova Vorti (1988), listo A > B =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B > F = - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon > G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana da Feder & Schnee= berger > H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana > J =3D plu tarda lexiko Ido-Franca nekom= pleta (me havas nula detaili) > P =3D dicionario da Pesch > R =3D Raporto d= a Roze > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > --f403045ea0aa8795820545c9011a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
aerpinselo: me ne komprenas la problemo ??? Ube esas = "aerpinselo" che Roze?
aktina: forsan F actinique E act= inic, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena defino: "Dicesas pri radiaco qua f= acas ago kemiala ye diversa substanci."
alegreto: Me ne sava= s. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http:= //idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) havas "alegr-eto". Ka to importa= s?
alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptesis: http://interlanguages.net/aster.html<= /div>
alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "alkaraveo". Me ne sava= s de ube to venas.
aktina: Me ne vidas lu...
amebocita:= certe "amebocito". Tala vorto ne falas de la cielo.
an= alitika: segun Dyer, "analitiko" e "analitikal". La Lex= iko Ido-Franca (http://idoling= uo.org.uk/idfr.htm) konkordas.
"Andora" esas en Dye= r.
Quo esas la problemo kun "api-pomo"? Quale "agar-aga= ro" ed "Angora-kapro", lu esas sat internaciona.
aplanat= ika: segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nu= lo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti.
apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya &qu= ot;apokromata". Nu, to esas evidenta.
arterito: *arteriito e= sas neoficala segun Dyer. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. *art= erito esas plu internaciona (EFIS). Nu, vartez! Me ya trovis ulo pri la ofi= caligo di "arterito":=C2=A0http://interlanguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranj= e mencionas "arterito" vice "arteriito" (tale quale &qu= ot;alkado").
astrofiziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dyer (cf= . astro). Ultre to, me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di *astrofiziko.=
astroida: astr-oida.
atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (re= giono en Grekia) + -ismo =3D Atik-ismo =3D atikismo (Dyer ne konservis la m= ayuskulo en derivaji: angora-kapro, anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retorikala.=
autogamo: autogama. Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", m= a lu korektigis la eroro.
autokrona: autokroma, quaze certe.=C2= =A0
bekafigo: bekafiko, segun Dyer.
bernaklo-muslo: ank= e en Dyer (cf. barnacle). Komparez ter-pomo, mar-hundo= , e.c.
Botna: quo esas Botnia?
boyardo: boyaro, segun D= yer.
bromuro: nu, "bromido" esas oficala depos 2001...<= br>
centigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la= sistemo da Celsius.
centrolecito: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vi= das problemo kun ta vorto... Tamen, me ne komprenas la "centrolecit-al= a" qua trovesas en la dicionario da Konstantin Yegupov:=C2=A0http://www.kyegupov.o= rg/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/
ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke= lu esas neoficala. On oficaligis lu kom "ciliara":=C2=A0http://interlanguages.net/aster.h= tml
cinetiko: Dyer havas amba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu defin= esas kom "kinetic (energy)", do "kinetiko" esas ener= gio=C2=A0(kinetika), tale quale "potencialo" (energio potenci= ala) o "kaloro" (energio termala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm= ), lu esas "mekanikala" vorto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9sor (http://www.cnrtl.fr/defi= nition/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala senco esas adjektivo. Tamen, forsa= n Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze cherpis la defino di la substanti= vo de ula dicionario.
decidua: Ha! ha! ha! Pesch prenis la defino= di la Franca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice "caduque". Mem la defi= no substantivala di "caduque" esas preske celita en la Tr=C3=A9so= r:=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl= .fr/definition/caduque.
deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pesc= h, di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer".
deturnar: de-turnar, segun Dyer.
devenar: se ne &qu= ot;divenar", do yes, "de-venar"!

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, = Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [= linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<= br>
=C2=A0
<= p>

Yen = ula vorti problemoza, pro ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defini esas trovit= a, o pro altra ne-certeso.
=C2=A0
aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pin= selo?
aktina (B)
alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)?
alkado (P) > a= lkaldo
alkaraneo (B)
amebocita (B). amebocito?
analitika (HP). ana= litik-ala?
Andoro (G). Andora
api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas alt= ra kozo.
aplanatika (P)
apokromatra (B). apokromata?
arterito (P).= arteriito?
astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko?
astroida (P)
=
atik-ismo= (G). atikajo?
autogamo (B). autogama?
autokrona (B). autokroma?
b= ekafigo (P). bekafiko?
bernaklo-muslo (D).
Botna (H). Botnia?<= /div>
boya= rdo (P). boyaro?
bromuro (H). bromido?
centigrado (P: "dividita = a 100 gradi"!)
centrolecito (P)
ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH)=
cin= etiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika (DFGJH)
<= span style=3D"font-family:'Tahoma';font-size:15pt">decidua (P: bot.= ). deciduo (DFR: anat.?)
deflegmar (ARHP). Senco?
deturnar (FJH); de-= turnar (D).
devenar (FJHG). de-venar?
=C2=A0
Fonti:=
A = =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A
B =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (198= 8), listo B
F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon
G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana= da Feder & Schneeberger
H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana
= J =3D plu tarda= lexiko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detaili)
P =3D dicionario d= a Pesch
R =3D Raporto da Roze
=C2=A0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


--f403045ea0aa8795820545c9011a-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4742 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22403 invoked by uid 102); 11 Jan 2017 12:08:04 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2017 12:08:04 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 7898 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2017 12:08:04 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2017 12:08:04 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: PKsu3EUWLDs4HM3wNJ6SoBM7KzrjsY2LvrQiEUcqa2uEwtJH lRCYvfmYya9z_gW5mEM4JaNPdJ0DcNvXS6NSUJJ9CYo9XX4lScBF8oLvX_aZ HfVFMYSzXqfBb.low1sGzrAsyxojEoXoQWKoQ4.aMIt.ZhfW10ZbFTOYtN0A JZs9NhLk3lD9Xf31nsVcZsPuNRHEVNmyNzCL_g8uMpFguLs_GXdF_my_pgb5 VAZFrriS41nJoCbTpnWC80hGam1bi0MOxAlYbo10LZDtGdWurOhYvSjWnla0 _Hc351ZLreaIHhvdVJx8XgRCWTu6XKSX_yAlE0QSeQxnx0vPq3v_gBbusURD 2Hf.cKAWaLfhRJklq2VtJFj7IFSNyFzCefsqrszS1STnen3..lgvrbl4dbMT vJZXNKpQ0LQBDWVluOYYjhRYPcRjoLo2MPd8i.XH5P13qjXqJT1kXS1blc0H HvZRIOHOweFvmbpgIF2jZbT7vVtqMxhU4RiiGSp2EPh8XOlCTMyVHPF_wpMG L2UyJ6EzAfmafnPyfFhwcZTtKp9bED5Q0E1jn9rtMYxgrj2tD8g6KG5gVHBh od3oz8euDQn1QCNYBwxWkSykKTfvKWTMg_kt4xYYqvQjlxaYGfV3fcfosT7V P4MYFDMNT.lpl_OJr0EWTDhJMOgY1UbE0kaq1v0q7FsnHjI.Pd1FOhcU0d2y 2yyImJ8iZ9lk4UeCmfK0EVjnr_uqWCx9J_0mJwhZsYdnYv1R8pNnOzXC8BCz JqMnGgkpYMkupVbd9E0XPfNksFUciexUS42kXehQOw._rKwBp9L5IVcrZCSY R5zqooLZUUxngo_9TzqGJwlfKzScSuCyPrFa2s5ixiedGOWyAZwreMlYGKBv 3pmmhlw173PXZpcqCgql09H9Bik5ZQZP1X6yIkA06LhhIzFOz3Jsw_ZAOuJr imlsOWCr_wjoVYpBQHFTCHkEDvM45wozuYAJmn7yeymIU_ntNhzY3AMcccXZ 5CLQiq6R59vPdkB6_iDdTkEdbEzQUcvGRC5AYAz6UuDpj.cuEVZ_r9I5ioFG wrps4hRfp9vZcAmgduvmds_d.tPNwAicN7xUruFUWQeIwDqsIJnvfraL3BaF l3BQbKyEfGLFXg5WdCUrEzocht8QYDw0oqAYUSdwOrkLbRHNZRo0MWrKRetg KG9_DY.KS6MHxLaP_A-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout07.plus.net) (84.93.230.235) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 12:08:04 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([80.189.251.185]) by avasout07 with smtp id X0811u00640llG0010835x; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 12:08:03 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Y8KIilWN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=hUcppJckz5r0dJdY2rUEoA==:117 a=hUcppJckz5r0dJdY2rUEoA==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=6mnm7gIjAAAA:8 a=qV0mfD4mAAAA:8 a=1Qhj-OTkAAAA:8 a=QWe-SY-okKQxq6mHpBwA:9 a=Ie0jfAEZqPYMjxaf:21 a=TPQ6aSPUt44V-33P:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 a=KfCPT_WOMwHMG_Iid1qq:22 a=mnVZ7iNJyew7AB3q5ROZ:22 a=cq4hp0u9VdKmxERt5c5W:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 12:08:01 GMT Message-ID: <20171111281.020048@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [linguo] Prefixo "auto-" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C." Ol esas en Dyer (Ido-English Dictionary, pagino 32), ma ne en la listo di prefixi (pagino VIII). Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:36:37 -0500: Ha! Lu ya esas en la Kompleta Gramatiko, kom prefixo qua repulsesis "kom prefixo generale aplikebla, ed adoptesis kom prefixo rezervenda a la ciencala e teknikala terminaro". To certe explikas pro quo lu esas nek en la Complete Manual nek che Dyer (1922). Danko pro la informo, Gilles-Philippe On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 4:09 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: Ol ne esas en LNV nam ol ne esas nova. Ol ja esis en adminime sis lexiki. Kordiale, Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 9 Jan 2017 23:41:13 -0500: Kara samideani, Me deziras savar, ka la prefixo "auto-" esas oficala. Me trovis lu en la Wikivortaro: https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/auto. Tamen me ne trovas lu en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4743 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 54792 invoked by uid 102); 11 Jan 2017 13:18:24 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2017 13:18:24 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 27637 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2017 13:18:23 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.119) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2017 13:18:23 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 3Q3.y00WLDujlsfKJxgebrxO_OKGuB5ySxVPzUenilMTRc69 c7y5VlrJO07WnESF62WyOqtCXI3pTbxvbuD3aIOqqgiu6UQmZF1nG41ctB3o Ex_.8dhVCaINFWPNOFJf_5Pihf_kFaDh8XGpHNojs1zf6nAV2y44ng2sjeDe cdbPywyvATw7s4VMU.ihb5eAwwIPAP2IC3_x8y3c6zhl4Yo4VeQ7ZHiMRusB AbE_6ZTJxUKTXchwNCOTzCSSK0sy7tQnzgaxOrsvGxGmWf6thwDiw2uAsSfM BjNaBdQ_mdbV85zU9gt6XAHdENVOXKumBc_70jujMrd1HO.oIl1JgXE5WFfC qH2eHLfOkGV8qC7kmKQJRcoNOVJ59K.bZuAPDBCjgrvaVNcKsiT1Cc0m9Sed vJ09UYlW8.WggXPyMhN3pt0dI2MK1.sNpq9G7ztFDvl4pFeAMfTMOSz6.sc. mLBYAjPe9WHBJD2xoL2LfAz2BvxKA_5.ADrzlGaEhuPpoaQIEp1TyCUrgu9g OlEE9Ez5tDN.z14Wa_BzePH6mhZypTrsER8LuPtkzhxccrvw7ikffR116FYg KL6HxfhH2YRXSEvBce64kM2R1LaFvzpEQxIweJNn32J5KAM2de26_qbvAA66 IXWSw52IT9qAQAndSkfIyULCAIVu8XENMyxKGDiQ9t0c_2pkLYZSUHIVHgNd nQXSz12EMD7Vivj1XPuIgluSPJrs1FOmZZjVmlhg3LvYdHqxAI0AbwqjykTT n2SrF1Xk7iQ6Yl8KxSErWEZ3HSW9c1fL1IIF1nqtCtEm89mdkeceqK36yDMf xWYzhQVHdzKJnF.bOvtrxZ0VqfQbqW8I5SizCmg2vnVEqvx2uE1FfV_pFx.g skXU2v3y87SUvYe.QdE9vf.M_tJd1_aLufQtimJ9F8uigIPdIxbDuyBKZUBX Tk8KgSdXCt4aAQEYypWV53GSwOCaQRVGqG4hxu1eLzfvkCYULiLf1A.9EfKV tHAi9jIvb4giC2jbs4lUjcz4DjEILyFKWO3sRc0w061_rhVWF.zV8A5No2us fScblVNoJEEnLSHmlUy3PN_3HnJPtb02U82Su1pbxgiyL0VIrMhi20Cklj9X BwN2fvBaQBw7Ya_WvKRXLjHSGoKvg3TKJcc7cH5cudniQuZNM_lrKct9yvob v9fu9cb3B8afKozQ44d9PHv546DLosNUhOEPCzcqM8OvbxDXwY7iOTlxOOrD dqaByxqUJxudqQA2o7I84CEDUKlQsf0meSlvkSsIilTsAXFGVpkXGHUesaoI 4lnP.mAsi9AuSLCls7Htiw8pBM0xqD43Z9RzaezWexJaA7rqOtIlWSVOsv56 CwUZr9S0kYnY8EHEakKMBCbUv7wVg_kPsU30BSisBBMSCKa9BP5zQA6kotNd y.W2w7LZUyO9dA67rEhwVrMP_AwMZ4FrJ0i1C9KlV3GY7g__ofllWCzxFBUQ dqYf6mL.89rxVgZlXLWHamo5jTI2hPA7tJ_DKB5sSKDSPrF2XRxUi0h01A4U ai2L4lC7qZU2vn0- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f50.google.com) (209.85.215.50) by mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:18:23 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f50.google.com with SMTP id o140so81554807lff.3 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 05:18:22 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=T9+Pxf/xiKVXmBUlenZCAr8v51XkyMUx3NryFpVnIAY=; b=hhwesYdfkTx3SihpJnMHuqyiYBTsmv9wv/loJDXE8Dw6v3hsvixRAcp4lz4EYz8Fzm z3QTkw9xhJBhtHdhJHaW7uPiXckEuhqQpkI9jGMxuMfIYfyFJQIe1hws45HvSXolesdG FitWyK69c7i7xXmFY+IeRkpJu1/ApsKz6nGqY6ATrkFRYvZbV1u8U7oy/trJsrsQYB9H 0j/36B3H0LlqcpCLzJa6t06uq+7pmwXkvW87h60IqZMD7zYWvVDC2ljULxcK/SlSj8f8 h7FDUXlevykZXqApx2y0kwqqWL04e6y3l5w7G5a0vNjE8z0XAACRIwA8GmMUg9/LCNam 6/BA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJQHJ+cJAmjnUPLiHvwqLweXla4gcGERkWyOzn+d16LMbahlRUikFBt5FjCHSvzVoGc14mlMmX731kimg== X-Received: by 10.25.56.22 with SMTP id f22mr2959275lfa.0.1484140701532; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 05:18:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20171922525.510633@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 13:18:11 +0000 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ea0aa4fc7440545d16fe8 Subject: Re: [linguo] Vorti problemoza X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ea0aa4fc7440545d16fe8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *aktina (duesma): supresez la lineo On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 22:14 Gilles-P= hilippe Morin wrote: aerpinselo: me ne komprenas la p= roblemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo" che Roze? aktina: forsan F actinique E ac= tinic, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena defino: "Dicesas pri radiaco qua facas= ago kemiala ye diversa substanci." alegreto: Me ne savas. La Lexiko Ido-Fr= anca ( http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) havas "alegr-eto". Ka to importas?= alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptesis: http://interlanguages.net/aster.html = alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "alkaraveo". Me ne savas de ube to venas. a= ktina: Me ne vidas lu... amebocita: certe "amebocito". Tala vorto ne falas = de la cielo. analitika: segun Dyer, "analitiko" e "analitikal". La Lexiko I= do-Franca ( http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) konkordas. "Andora" esas en D= yer. Quo esas la problemo kun "api-pomo"? Quale "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kap= ro", lu esas sat internaciona. aplanatika: segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" = esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. apokromatra: s= egun Pesch, ya "apokromata". Nu, to esas evidenta. arterito: *arteriito esa= s neoficala segun Dyer. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. *arter= ito esas plu internaciona (EFIS). Nu, vartez! Me ya trovis ulo pri la ofica= ligo di "arterito": http://interlanguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo s= tranje mencionas "arterito" vice "arteriito" (tale quale "alkado"). astrofi= ziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dyer (cf. *astro*). Ultre to, me trovis nul= o pri la oficaligo di *astrofiziko. astroida: astr-oida. atikismo: anke en = Dyer. Atika (regiono en Grekia) + -ismo =3D Atik-ismo =3D atikismo (Dyer ne= konservis la mayuskulo en derivaji: angora-kapro, anti-semid-a, e.c.). Mov= ado retorikala. autogamo: autogama. Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", ma lu = korektigis la eroro. autokrona: autokroma, quaze certe. bekafigo: bekafiko,= segun Dyer. bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer (cf. *barnacle*). Komparez *ter-p= omo*, *mar-hundo*, e.c. Botna: quo esas Botnia? boyardo: boyaro, segun Dyer= . bromuro: nu, "bromido" esas oficala depos 2001... centigrado: esas centim= o (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da Celsius. centroleci= to: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vidas problemo kun ta vorto... Tamen, me ne= komprenas la "centrolecit-ala" qua trovesas en la dicionario da Konstantin= Yegupov: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/ ciliaro: ciliara= . Dyer indikas ke lu esas neoficala. On oficaligis lu kom "ciliara": http:/= /interlanguages.net/aster.html cinetiko: Dyer havas amba (cinetiko e cineti= ka). Lu definesas kom "kinetic (energy)", do "kinetiko" esas *energio* (kin= etika), tale quale "potencialo" (energio potenciala) o "kaloro" (energio te= rmala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm), lu e= sas "mekanikala" vorto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9sor (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definitio= n/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala senco esas adjektivo. Tamen, forsan Pesch n= e komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze cherpis la defino di la substantivo de ula= dicionario. decidua: Ha! ha! ha! Pesch prenis la defino di la Franca "d=C3= =A9cidu" vice "caduque". Mem la defino substantivala di "caduque" esas pres= ke celita en la Tr=C3=A9sor: http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/caduque. defleg= mar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pesch, di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la Franca= "d=C3=A9flegmer". deturnar: de-turnar, segun Dyer. devenar: se ne "divenar= ", do yes, "de-venar"! Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Mon, Jan 9= , 2017 at 5:05 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: = Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defini es= as trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso. aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pinselo? = aktina (B) alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)? alkado (P) > alkaldo alkar= aneo (B) amebocita (B). amebocito? analitika (HP). analitik-ala? Ando= ro (G). Andora api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo. aplanati= ka (P) apokromatra (B). apokromata? arterito (P). arteriito? astrofiz= iko (HP). astro-fiziko? astroida (P) atik-ismo (G). atikajo? autogamo= (B). autogama? autokrona (B). autokroma? bekafigo (P). bekafiko? ber= naklo-muslo (D). Botna (H). Botnia? boyardo (P). boyaro? bromuro (H).= bromido? centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!) centrolecito (P) ci= liaro (P); ciliara (JH) cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika (DFGJH) = decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?) deflegmar (ARHP). Senco? det= urnar (FJH); de-turnar (D). devenar (FJHG). de-venar? Fonti: A =3D= Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A B =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), = listo B F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana da Fe= der & Schneeberger H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana J =3D plu tarda lexiko Ido-= Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detaili) P =3D dicionario da Pesch R = =3D Raporto da Roze =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D = --f403045ea0aa4fc7440545d16fe8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*aktina (duesma): supresez la lineo

=
On Tue, Jan 1= 0, 2017 at 22:14 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrot= e:
aerpinselo: me ne komprenas= la problemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo" che Roze?
aktina: forsan F actinique E actinic, fizikal adjektivo kun = la yena defino: "Dicesas pri radiaco qua facas ago kemiala ye diversa = substanci."
alegreto: Me ne savas. La Le= xiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) havas "= alegr-eto". Ka to importas?
alkado: &quo= t;alkado" nultempe adoptesis: http://interlanguages.net/as= ter.html
alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas = "alkaraveo". Me ne savas de ube to venas.
aktina: Me ne vidas lu...
amebocita: c= erte "amebocito". Tala vorto ne falas de la cielo.
analitika: segun Dyer, "analitiko" e "analit= ikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm<= /a>) konkordas.
"Andora" esas en Dy= er.
Quo esas la problemo kun "api-pomo"? Quale "agar-ag= aro" ed "Angora-kapro", lu esas sat internaciona.
aplanatika: segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" esas n= eoficala. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti.
apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya "apokromata". Nu, to esas = evidenta.
arterito: *arteriito esas neoficala= segun Dyer. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. *arterito esas pl= u internaciona (EFIS). Nu, vartez! Me ya trovis ulo pri la oficaligo di &qu= ot;arterito":=C2=A0http://interlanguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranje mencionas "arterito" vice "arteri= ito" (tale quale "alkado").
as= trofiziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dyer (cf. astro= ). Ultre to, me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di *astrofiziko.
astroida: astr-oida.
ati= kismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (regiono en Grekia) + -ismo =3D Atik-ismo =3D at= ikismo (Dyer ne konservis la mayuskulo en derivaji: angora-kapro, anti-semi= d-a, e.c.). Movado retorikala.
autogamo: auto= gama. Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", ma lu korektigis la eroro.=
autokrona: autokroma, quaze certe.=C2=A0
bekafigo: bekafiko, segun Dyer.
bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer (cf. bar= nacle). Komparez ter-pomo, mar-hundo, e.c.
Botna: quo esas Bot= nia?
boyardo: boyaro, segun Dyer.
bromuro: nu, "bromido" esas oficala depos 2001= ...
centigrado: esas centim= o (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da Celsius.
centrolecito: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vidas problem= o kun ta vorto... Tamen, me ne komprenas la "centrolecit-ala" qua= trovesas en la dicionario da Konstantin Yegupov:=C2=A0http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/
ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke lu esas neoficala. On oficali= gis lu kom "ciliara":=C2=A0http://interlanguages.net/= aster.html
cinetiko: Dyer havas amba (cin= etiko e cinetika). Lu definesas kom "kinetic (energy)", do "= kinetiko" esas energio=C2=A0(kinetika), tal= e quale "potencialo" (energio potenciala) o "kaloro" (e= nergio termala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.u= k/idfr.htm), lu esas "mekanikala" vorto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9sor= (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cin%C3%A9tique) l= a mekanikala senco esas adjektivo. Tamen, forsan Pesch ne komprenis la nuan= co ed eroroze cherpis la defino di la substantivo de ula dicionario.
<= div class=3D"gmail_msg">decidua: Ha! ha! ha! Pesch prenis la defino di la F= ranca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice "caduque". Mem la defino subst= antivala di "caduque" esas preske celita en la Tr=C3=A9sor:=C2=A0= http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/caduque.
deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pesch, di la Lexiko di Nova= Vorti e di la Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer".
deturnar: de-turnar, segun Dyer.
d= evenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, "de-venar"!

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at = 5:05 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">




























=C2=A0


















=

Yen ula vorti p= roblemoza, pro ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defini esas trovita, o pro al= tra ne-certeso.


=C2=A0

aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pinselo?<= /div>

aktina (B)


<= div class=3D"gmail_msg">alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)?

alkado (P) > alkaldo

alkaraneo (B)


amebocita (B). amebocito?


analitika (HP). analitik-ala?


=
Andoro (G). Andora


api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo.


aplanatika (P)
<= br>
apokromatra (B). apokromata?

arterito (P). arteriito?

astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko?


astroida (P)

atik-ismo (G). atikajo?

autogamo (B). autogama?

=
autokrona (B). autokroma?

bekafigo (P). bekafiko?

=
bernaklo-muslo (D).


<= div class=3D"gmail_msg">Botna (H). Botnia?


boyardo (P). boyaro?


bromuro (H). bromido?


centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!)

centrolecito (P)

=
ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH)

cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ...")= . cinetika (DFGJH)


decidu= a (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?)


deflegmar (ARHP). Senco?


deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D).


devenar (FJHG). de-venar?


=C2=A0


Fonti:=


A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (198= 8), listo A


B =3D Lexiko = di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B


= F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon


G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana da Feder & Schneeberger<= /div>

H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana<= /div>

J =3D plu tarda lexiko Ido-Franc= a nekompleta (me havas nula detaili)


P =3D dicionario da Pesch


R =3D Raporto da Roze


=C2=A0


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D




















=

























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Gilles-Philippe On We= d, Jan 11, 2017 at 08:18 Gilles-Philippe Morin wrote: = > *aktina (duesma): supresez la lineo > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 22:14 Gi= lles-Philippe Morin > wrote: > > aerpinselo: me ne kom= prenas la problemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo" che Roze? > aktina: forsan F a= ctinique E actinic, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena > defino: "Dicesas pri ra= diaco qua facas ago kemiala ye diversa substanci." > alegreto: Me ne savas.= La Lexiko Ido-Franca ( > http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) havas "alegr-et= o". Ka to importas? > alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptesis: http://interlang= uages.net/aster.html > alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "alkaraveo". Me ne s= avas de ube to venas. > aktina: Me ne vidas lu... > amebocita: certe "amebo= cito". Tala vorto ne falas de la cielo. > analitika: segun Dyer, "analitiko= " e "analitikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca ( > http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm= ) konkordas. > "Andora" esas en Dyer. > Quo esas la problemo kun "api-pomo"= ? Quale "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kapro", > lu esas sat internaciona. > aplan= atika: segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo > pri= la oficaligo di ta vorti. > apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya "apokromata". Nu,= to esas evidenta. > arterito: *arteriito esas neoficala segun Dyer. Me tro= vis nulo pri la > oficaligo di ta vorti. *arterito esas plu internaciona (E= FIS). Nu, vartez! > Me ya trovis ulo pri la oficaligo di "arterito": > http= ://interlanguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranje mencionas > "arte= rito" vice "arteriito" (tale quale "alkado"). > astrofiziko: astro-fiziko. = Lu esas che Dyer (cf. *astro*). Ultre to, me > trovis nulo pri la oficaligo= di *astrofiziko. > astroida: astr-oida. > atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (r= egiono en Grekia) + -ismo =3D Atik-ismo =3D > atikismo (Dyer ne konservis l= a mayuskulo en derivaji: angora-kapro, > anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retori= kala. > autogamo: autogama. Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", ma lu korektig= is la > eroro. > autokrona: autokroma, quaze certe. > bekafigo: bekafiko, s= egun Dyer. > bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer (cf. *barnacle*). Komparez *ter-p= omo*, > *mar-hundo*, e.c. > Botna: quo esas Botnia? > boyardo: boyaro, segu= n Dyer. > bromuro: nu, "bromido" esas oficala depos 2001... > centigrado: e= sas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da > Celsius= . > centrolecito: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vidas problemo kun ta vorto..= . > Tamen, me ne komprenas la "centrolecit-ala" qua trovesas en la dicionar= io > da Konstantin Yegupov: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web= / > ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke lu esas neoficala. On oficaligis lu k= om > "ciliara": http://interlanguages.net/aster.html > cinetiko: Dyer havas= amba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu definesas kom "kinetic > (energy)", do "kin= etiko" esas *energio* (kinetika), tale quale > "potencialo" (energio potenc= iala) o "kaloro" (energio termala). Segun la > Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://id= olinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm), lu esas > "mekanikala" vorto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9so= r ( > http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala senco es= as > adjektivo. Tamen, forsan Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze cherp= is la > defino di la substantivo de ula dicionario. > decidua: Ha! ha! ha! = Pesch prenis la defino di la Franca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice > "caduque". Mem la = defino substantivala di "caduque" esas preske celita en > la Tr=C3=A9sor: h= ttp://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/caduque. > deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di P= esch, di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la > Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer". > detur= nar: de-turnar, segun Dyer. > devenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, "de-venar"!= > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:05= PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro= ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defini esas > trovita, o pro altra ne-certe= so. > > > > > > aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pinselo? > > > aktina (B) > > > aleg= reto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)? > > > alkado (P) > alkaldo > > > alkaraneo (B) = > > > amebocita (B). amebocito? > > > analitika (HP). analitik-ala? > > > A= ndoro (G). Andora > > > api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo. > >= > aplanatika (P) > > > apokromatra (B). apokromata? > > > arterito (P). ar= teriito? > > > astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko? > > > astroida (P) > > > ati= k-ismo (G). atikajo? > > > autogamo (B). autogama? > > > autokrona (B). aut= okroma? > > > bekafigo (P). bekafiko? > > > bernaklo-muslo (D). > > > Botna= (H). Botnia? > > > boyardo (P). boyaro? > > > bromuro (H). bromido? > > > = centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!) > > > centrolecito (P) > > > ciliar= o (P); ciliara (JH) > > > cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika (DFGJH) = > > > decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?) > > > deflegmar (ARHP). Senc= o? > > > deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D). > > > devenar (FJHG). de-venar? > >= > > > > Fonti: > > > A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A > > > B = =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B > > > F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Gui= gnon > > > G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana da Feder & Schneeberger > > > H =3D lex= iko Ido-Hispana > > > J =3D plu tarda lexiko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me hava= s nula detaili) > > > P =3D dicionario da Pesch > > > R =3D Raporto da Roze= > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > --001a113f8fa44a446c0545d1ec0c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 'Aplanata' oficaleskis per la decido 1635: http://interlanguages.net/aster.html

Me= trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di 'aplanata'.

Gilles-Philippe=
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 08:= 18 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin= @gmail.com> wrote:
*aktina (duesma): supresez la lineo

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 22:14 Gilles-Philippe Morin <= gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
aerpinselo: me ne komprenas la problemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo&= quot; che Roze?
aktina: forsan F actinique E = actinic, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena defino: "Dicesas pri radiaco qu= a facas ago kemiala ye diversa substanci."
alegreto: Me ne savas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.or= g.uk/idfr.htm) havas "alegr-eto". Ka to importas?
alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptesis: http://interlanguages.net/aster.html
alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "alkaraveo". Me ne savas de ube = to venas.
aktina: Me ne vidas lu...
amebocita: certe "amebocito". Tala vorto ne = falas de la cielo.
analitika: segun Dyer, &qu= ot;analitiko" e "analitikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) konkordas.
"Andora" esas en Dyer.
Quo esas la problemo kun "a= pi-pomo"? Quale "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kapro", lu= esas sat internaciona.
aplanatika: segun Dyer, la = vorto "aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo = di ta vorti.
apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya &qu= ot;apokromata". Nu, to esas evidenta.
ar= terito: *arteriito esas neoficala segun Dyer. Me trovis nulo pri la oficali= go di ta vorti. *arterito esas plu internaciona (EFIS). Nu, vartez! Me ya t= rovis ulo pri la oficaligo di "arterito":=C2=A0http:/= /interlanguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranje mencionas "= ;arterito" vice "arteriito" (tale quale "alkado").=
astrofiziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dyer = (cf. astro). Ultre to, me trovis nulo pri la ofi= caligo di *astrofiziko.
astroida: astr-oida.<= /div>
atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (regiono en Gre= kia) + -ismo =3D Atik-ismo =3D atikismo (Dyer ne konservis la mayuskulo en = derivaji: angora-kapro, anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retorikala.
autogamo: autogama. Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o&= quot;, ma lu korektigis la eroro.
autokrona: = autokroma, quaze certe.=C2=A0
bekafigo: bekaf= iko, segun Dyer.
bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer= (cf. barnacle). Komparez ter-pomo, mar-hundo, e.c.
Botna: quo esas Botnia?
boyard= o: boyaro, segun Dyer.
bromuro: nu, "bro= mido" esas oficala depos 2001...
centigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e.= la sistemo da Celsius.
centrolecito: ecepte = pri oficaleso, me ne vidas problemo kun ta vorto... Tamen, me ne komprenas = la "centrolecit-ala" qua trovesas en la dicionario da Konstantin = Yegupov:=C2=A0http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dict= ionary_web/
ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indika= s ke lu esas neoficala. On oficaligis lu kom "ciliara":=C2=A0http://interlanguages.net/aster.html
cinetiko: Dyer havas amba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu definesas kom "= ;kinetic (energy)", do "kinetiko" esas energio=C2=A0(kinetika), tale quale "potencialo" (energio p= otenciala) o "kaloro" (energio termala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Fran= ca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm), lu esas "mekanikala= " vorto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9sor (http://www.cnrtl.f= r/definition/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala senco esas adjektivo. Tamen,= forsan Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze cherpis la defino di la sub= stantivo de ula dicionario.
decidua: Ha! ha! = ha! Pesch prenis la defino di la Franca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice "= caduque". Mem la defino substantivala di "caduque" esas pres= ke celita en la Tr=C3=A9sor:=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl.fr/definit= ion/caduque.
deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam t= a di Pesch, di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer&= quot;.
deturnar: de-turnar, segun Dyer.=
devenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, = "de-venar"!

Kun kordiala saluti= ,
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com> wrote:























=





=C2=A0


















<= /p>

Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro ke fonti dif= eras o pro ke nula defini esas trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso.

= =C2=A0


aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pinselo?


aktina (B)


alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)?


alkado (P) &g= t; alkaldo


alkaraneo (B)


amebocita (B). amebo= cito?


analitika (HP). analitik-ala?


Andoro (G= ). Andora


api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo.


aplanatika (P)


apokromatra (B). apokromata?


arterito (P). arteriito?


astrofiziko (HP). as= tro-fiziko?


astroida (P)


atik-ismo (G). atika= jo?


autogamo (B). autogama?


autokrona (B). a= utokroma?


bekafigo (P). bekafiko?


bernaklo-mu= slo (D).


Botna (H). Botnia?


boyardo (P). boya= ro?


bromuro (H). bromido?


centigrado (P: &qu= ot;dividita a 100 gradi"!)


centrolecito (P)

<= span style=3D"font-family:'Tahoma';font-size:15pt" class=3D"gmail_m= sg">ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH)


cinetiko (P: "teorio pri = ..."). cinetika (DFGJH)


decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DF= R: anat.?)


deflegmar (ARHP). Senco?


deturnar = (FJH); de-turnar (D).


devenar (FJHG). de-venar?
=

= =C2=A0


Fonti:


A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), lis= to A


B =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B
=

F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon

G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana= da Feder & Schneeberger


H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana


J =3D plu tarda lexiko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detai= li)


P =3D dicionario da Pesch


R =3D Raporto = da Roze


=C2=A0


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D





























=


<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">













--001a113f8fa44a446c0545d1ec0c-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4745 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 18670 invoked by uid 102); 11 Jan 2017 14:04:04 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m17.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2017 14:04:04 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 992 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2017 14:04:04 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2017 14:04:04 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 5tiCQcQWLDv1xEAdaLk.gC99_I6iAEkAIV3haqEWeB477k_P CBS0jl4LyoPBG8X6lYPkyH1FCCihuOIkHSjY9r3ojNY8q4YvzQvXRglFR63o f8rSzjRz.lnPpznyTLBxUURoyTqqwH3n5fLh512G6z30mfpaof_Y0GFVLWAu lXxX82uMkPCcGfpTh2iGpRtn8eWAujU54jVdfPZfSJWextUEWcV3avDBHq_2 RexNvk6shWMDunVZxntyhOJ2YypS9VYxQcxolpWV5o2Wgo7ZVGjpgPCyEH9j AJzi1EWbt4mWMxh16zV8hKX6XkFm85NxA4BaOCoV1sJJyN96_DcbozSQZwGN 0Rxto2DlooRA3SEi676NJJ4GVuZZQNarmwA_bjY9FXt5k8HReBH6y2VkwFBg zFnfovpmeakKZ3o_GenhG.0ktb.BLMHUCG6sauzQXjH.S_2_nW1IHJHYZzkK 6tLwTs4TBqbB3AvvYo0okU.vxQyk05x6lErvmszoO9iFEuLxlugoZb7Uxxtl .pFqKnXrRsbN6_OqMZQhQpWSSlpNQwoQ.NgvaonSka3nkuM4j6txo6UahqTJ DE4jMgfyC3DfuDRhXIyrUrDv9EYkwf1t2OdonoonZBqWroG4113myRVoaNMi _GQ9H37QwU3jWiiFPsLW1DliKRowIZ4UjP1vFLgGtwPp84zGXKxM85eYSONw _Qh5tuUF4UpdqX756CVsZs7P3j46OD.tCg5M0aB1Sxj2ZFsDewAB52rYowY1 xmUFj_OQTL68Hew5R_hF8X6x5OFhU2vxptdYWsI1MvzJnAiQEjjTLTISSKuR ENLeLfg66NFnkSzr8uz458x2zxEM1Z6PaNMsJgPsj_TcNXAn56rtvmXAOcZa ENuylx9dNWxT1FNMG6AhkD24UYVwopqXR7oqHxqoOE3M4R8qSvvfO_DaCPmz _5FnqJDfgsfw4rhEmrHii0HKxjTQsQGRqx6BusmXRk10tStie79rR1w1HstK yXrU0B2hH6POK1iioVt24jgl3R.aWMoAr.JdvmPdIoodQvUh.Zu7ojVd57At .KjD3qAug7j8v.ODbh8pZ8zQlnXdQ2xVkq4Hxejz8ZrjLeRExBU7zxcU9Mn3 n2EklCH9CtnenCqB8SCBP0xhEo3BF_.c22mFA1GR.wHoCj9uQyvZyO8LGAnb XFYdI.pqTMFs58Tbw_z.5AX7TOePck4nXnfhAy_l7qqMhhiuI8LyYwCZKJhD OeSDPZLOl.JeBCGRGJWcFiZ3zxZL16_bOQfJN7q2jCJtLCVXs0Nyh.q7cImI xhXkujzc28KbA6Zo_poriJqeO3cWdOXW0EpdSKfAfQUymBFM4OoGToOmCagw 0_2Ve0RbIKie6QzPbcNqBKHVFZ_Vijv.tvTjlWY9ZIOC1RNs8FEPCGJNM4.e Tn.tjk8r9xfZXKYG89rm25K3LQZm2o8mKAeSJ9lQ2vp0zcZEmuzEo.woYNI7 0fGX_J3fxQL14VwmoM0nlc1dXxQOfCkMvqBgFuzyTZicqVvSH9bYuNuBW28h iTpm8g-- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f50.google.com) (209.85.215.50) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:04:04 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f50.google.com with SMTP id m78so116108346lfg.2 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 06:04:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=wMvu1d5fBDFOjZ6g32O4VZzbshMD1MErClZ39nDHovo=; b=BDyNGWW+5Ort10cOBDT9v5eU32mQBqcBCkkhfhkd2FHxs4k2WzCJbMopqdNtN1oNto L+QXWjp/bMFWalxKlYMllZUgXadZUwGKyCUAWfBOtHRZ8Nbrf8Qgpg3koPB/Rgu3JOlp MmD1PX1o27JN2BAVtaDlw5NrW91jwMlNbZWuLfpj48kpsv0iGteJSN0gcDmnOFPKImQY 0fPVixMRWt4o80PP02ZogopBBN3+9nObW72Z9ju7znBEg3QoeyH2LZM7rEc+zvyg4qy+ bUIID92sbW8L6kWkcST6OilK/OAMuYIGEQEILVP3LdIPCpahWZZy9SUM5CTN6EKTt2Dj cWig== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLnMQ3fNDXyMztAd4uAeIM38rgxe/2QFr5mGjothVLRpG+i4rQPBmzWYBm3/UYAx2paDY/gscsEkuNFlw== X-Received: by 10.46.0.228 with SMTP id e97mr3483006lji.49.1484143443436; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 06:04:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20171111281.020048@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: <20171111281.020048@D9B5MN3J> Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:03:53 +0000 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142bac4bdea9a0545d21255 Subject: Re: [linguo] Prefixo "auto-" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1142bac4bdea9a0545d21255 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Justa! Kad esas altra afixi di qui la defini trovesas exter la listi? Dan= ko pro la informo, Gilles-Philippe On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 07:11 'Robert C.= ' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: = Ol esas en Dyer (Ido-English= Dictionary, pagino 32), ma ne en la listo di prefixi (pagino VIII). Robe= rt C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 10= Jan 2017 17:36:37 -0500: Ha! Lu ya esas en la Kompleta Gramatiko, kom p= refixo qua repulsesis "kom prefixo generale aplikebla, ed adoptesis kom pre= fixo rezervenda a la ciencala e teknikala terminaro". To certe explika= s pro quo lu esas nek en la Complete Manual nek che Dyer (1922). Danko= pro la informo, Gilles-Philippe On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 4:09 PM, 'R= obert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrot= e: Ol ne esas en LNV nam ol ne esas nova. Ol ja esis en adminime si= s lexiki. Kordiale, Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gm= ail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 9 Jan 2017 23:41:13 -0500: Kara samideani, = Me deziras savar, ka la prefixo "auto-" esas oficala. Me trovis lu en la W= ikivortaro: https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/auto. Tamen me ne trovas = lu en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe = --001a1142bac4bdea9a0545d21255 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Justa! Kad esas altra afixi di qui la defini trovesas exter la listi?<= /div>


Danko pro la info= rmo,
Gilles-Philippe
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017= at 07:11 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=




















=









=C2= =A0


















Ol esas en Dyer (Ido-English Dictionary, pagino 32), ma ne= en la listo di prefixi (pagino VIII).


Rober= t C.





Gilles-= Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 10 Jan 2017 17:= 36:37 -0500:



Ha! Lu ya esas en la Kompleta Gramatiko, = kom prefixo qua repulsesis "kom prefixo generale aplikebla, ed adoptes= is kom prefixo rezervenda a la ciencala e teknikala terminaro".





To certe explikas = pro quo lu esas nek en la Complete Manual nek che Dyer (1922).





Danko pro la informo,

Gilles-Philippe




On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 4:09 PM, 'Robe= rt C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com> wrote:








Ol ne esas en LNV nam o= l ne esas nova. Ol ja esis en adminime sis lexiki.
<= br>
Kordiale,


Robert C.







Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 9 J= an 2017 23:41:13 -0500:


Kara samideani,


Me deziras savar, ka la prefixo "auto-&quo= t; esas oficala. Me trovis lu en la Wikivortaro:

https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/auto.





Tamen me ne trovas lu en la Le= xiko di Nova Vorti.



=

Kun kordiala saluti,


Gilles-Philippe=





<= /div>
<= div id=3D"m_3875965105890083183m_-1205377337092050637ygrp-mlmsg" class=3D"g= mail_msg">














=





















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Gilles-Philippe On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 08:18 Gilles-Phi= lippe Morin wrote: *aktina (duesma): supresez la line= o On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 22:14 Gilles-Philippe Morin = wrote: aerpinselo: me ne komprenas la problemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo" = che Roze? aktina: forsan F actinique E actinic, fizikal adjektivo kun la ye= na defino: "Dicesas pri radiaco qua facas ago kemiala ye diversa substanci.= " alegreto: Me ne savas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca ( http://idolinguo.org.uk/idf= r.htm) havas "alegr-eto". Ka to importas? alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptes= is: http://interlanguages.net/aster.html alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "a= lkaraveo". Me ne savas de ube to venas. aktina: Me ne vidas lu... amebocita= : certe "amebocito". Tala vorto ne falas de la cielo. analitika: segun Dyer= , "analitiko" e "analitikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca ( http://idolinguo.org.u= k/idfr.htm) konkordas. "Andora" esas en Dyer. Quo esas la problemo kun "api= -pomo"? Quale "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kaapro", lu esas sat internaciona. apl= anatika: segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo pri= la oficaligo di ta vorti. apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya "apokromata". Nu, t= o esas evidenta. arterito: *arteriito esas neoficala segun Dyer. Me trovis = nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. *arterito esas plu internaciona (EFIS). = Nu, vartez! Me ya trovis ulo pri la oficaligo di "arterito": http://interla= nguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranje mencionas "arterito" vice "= arteriito" (tale quale "alkado"). astrofiziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dy= er (cf. *astro*). Ultre to, me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di *astrofiziko= . astroida: astr-oida. atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (regiono en Grekia) + = -ismo =3D Atik-ismo =3D atikismo (Dyer ne konservis la mayuskulo en derivaj= i: angora-kapro, anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retorikala. autogamo: autogama= . Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", ma lu korektigis la eroro. autokrona: au= tokroma, quaze certe. bekafigo: bekafiko, segun Dyer. bernaklo-muslo: anke = en Dyer (cf. *barnacle*). Komparez *ter-pomo*, *mar-hundo*, e.c. Botna: quo= esas Botnia? boyardo: boyaro, segun Dyer. bromuro: nu, "bromido" esas ofic= ala depos 2001... centigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistem= o, t.e. la sistemo da Celsius. centrolecito: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vi= das problemo kun ta vorto... Tamen, me ne komprenas la "centrolecit-ala" qu= a trovesas en la dicionario da Konstantin Yegupov: http://www.kyegupov.org/= ido/dyer_dictionary_web/ ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke lu esas neofical= a. On oficaligis lu kom "ciliara": http://interlanguages.net/aster.html cin= etiko: Dyer havas amba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu definesas kom "kinetic (en= ergy)", do "kinetiko" esas *energio* (kinetika), tale quale "potencialo" (e= nergio potenciala) o "kaloro" (energio termala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Franca= (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm), lu esas "mekanikala" vorto, ed en la T= r=C3=A9sor (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala se= nco esas adjektivo. Tamen, forsan Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze c= herpis la defino di la substantivo de ula dicionario. decidua: Ha! ha! ha! = Pesch prenis la defino di la Franca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice "caduque". Mem la de= fino substantivala di "caduque" esas preske celita en la Tr=C3=A9sor: http:= //www.cnrtl.fr/definition/caduque. deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pesch, = di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer". deturnar: de-tu= rnar, segun Dyer. devenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, "de-venar"! Kun kordia= la saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Robert Carnagha= n ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: = Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro= ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defini esas trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso= . aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pinselo? aktina (B) alegreto (AH) od aleg= r-eto (R)? alkado (P) > alkaldo alkaraneo (B) amebocita (B). amebocit= o? analitika (HP). analitik-ala? Andoro (G). Andora api-pomo (DFJH?).= apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo. aplanatika (P) apokromatra (B). apokroma= ta? arterito (P). arteriito? astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko? astroida= (P) atik-ismo (G). atikajo? autogamo (B). autogama? autokrona (B). a= utokroma? bekafigo (P). bekafiko? bernaklo-muslo (D). Botna (H). Botn= ia? boyardo (P). boyaro? bromuro (H). bromido? centigrado (P: "dividi= ta a 100 gradi"!) centrolecito (P) ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH) cinetiko= (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika (DFGJH) decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR:= anat.?) deflegmar (ARHP). Senco? deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D). deve= nar (FJHG). de-venar? Fonti: A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), list= o A B =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B F - lexiko Ido-Franca da= Guignon G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana da Feder & Schneeberger H =3D lexiko = Ido-Hispana J =3D plu tarda lexiko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula d= etaili) P =3D dicionario da Pesch R =3D Raporto da Roze =3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --f403045e57feaf892c0545d1f5ea Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*pri la oficaligo di 'aplanatika'
On Wed, Jan 11, 20= 17 at 08:53 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
'Ap= lanata' oficaleskis per la decido 1635: http://interlanguag= es.net/aster.html

Me tro= vis nulo pri la oficaligo di 'aplanata'.
Gilles-Philippe
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 08:1= 8 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
*aktina (duesma): supresez la lineo
<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">
On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 22:14 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmor= in@gmail.com> wrote:
a= erpinselo: me ne komprenas la problemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo" = che Roze?
aktina: forsan F actinique E actini= c, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena defino: "Dicesas pri radiaco qua faca= s ago kemiala ye diversa substanci."
ale= greto: Me ne savas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/i= dfr.htm) havas "alegr-eto". Ka to importas?
alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptesis: h= ttp://interlanguages.net/aster.html
alkar= aneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "alkaraveo". Me ne savas de ube to ven= as.
aktina: Me ne vidas lu...
amebocita: certe "amebocito". Tala vorto ne falas = de la cielo.
analitika: segun Dyer, "ana= litiko" e "analitikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http:/= /idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) konkordas.
&q= uot;Andora" esas en Dyer.
Quo esas la problemo kun "api-pomo= "? Quale "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kapro", lu esas s= at internaciona.
aplanatika: segun Dyer, la vorto &= quot;aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta v= orti.
apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya "apok= romata". Nu, to esas evidenta.
arterito:= *arteriito esas neoficala segun Dyer. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di t= a vorti. *arterito esas plu internaciona (EFIS). Nu, vartez! Me ya trovis u= lo pri la oficaligo di "arterito":=C2=A0http://interl= anguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranje mencionas "arteri= to" vice "arteriito" (tale quale "alkado").
<= div class=3D"gmail_msg">astrofiziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dyer (cf. astro). Ultre to, me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo = di *astrofiziko.
astroida: astr-oida.
atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (regiono en Grekia) + = -ismo =3D Atik-ismo =3D atikismo (Dyer nne konservis la mayuskulo en derivaj= i: angora-kapro, anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retorikala.
autogamo: autogama. Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", = ma lu korektigis la eroro.
autokrona: autokro= ma, quaze certe.=C2=A0
bekafigo: bekafiko, se= gun Dyer.
bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer (cf. <= b class=3D"gmail_msg">barnacle). Komparez ter-po= mo, mar-hundo, e.c.
Botna: quo esas Botnia?
boyardo: boyaro= , segun Dyer.
bromuro: nu, "bromido"= ; esas oficala depos 2001...
centigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la siste= mo da Celsius.
centrolecito: ecepte pri ofica= leso, me ne vidas problemo kun ta vorto... Tamen, me ne komprenas la "= centrolecit-ala" qua trovesas en la dicionario da Konstantin Yegupov:= =C2=A0http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_w= eb/
ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke lu = esas neoficala. On oficaligis lu kom "ciliara":=C2=A0= http://interlanguages.net/aster.html
cine= tiko: Dyer havas amba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu definesas kom "kinetic= (energy)", do "kinetiko" esas energi= o=C2=A0(kinetika), tale quale "potencialo" (energio potencial= a) o "kaloro" (energio termala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm), lu esas "mekanikala" v= orto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9sor (http://www.cnrtl.fr/defini= tion/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala senco esas adjektivo. Tamen, forsan = Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze cherpis la defino di la substantivo= de ula dicionario.
decidua: Ha! ha! ha! Pesc= h prenis la defino di la Franca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice "caduque&= quot;. Mem la defino substantivala di "caduque" esas preske celit= a en la Tr=C3=A9sor:=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cadu= que.
deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pes= ch, di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer".
deturnar: de-turnar, segun Dyer.
devenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, "de= -venar"!

Kun kordiala saluti,
<= div class=3D"gmail_msg">Gilles-Philippe

O= n Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguo= listo] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com<= /a>> wrote:














<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">














=C2=A0

















Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defin= i esas trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso.


=C2=A0


aerpinselo= (RH) od aer-pinselo?


aktina (B)


alegreto (AH= ) od alegr-eto (R)?


alkado (P) > alkaldo


a= lkaraneo (B)


amebocita (B). amebocito?


analit= ika (HP). analitik-ala?


Andoro (G). Andora


ap= i-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo.


aplanatika (P)=


apokromatra (B). apokromata?


arterito (P). a= rteriito?


astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko?


ast= roida (P)


atik-ismo (G). atikajo?


autogamo (B= ). autogama?


autokrona (B). autokroma?


bekafi= go (P). bekafiko?


bernaklo-muslo (D).


Botna = (H). Botnia?


boyardo (P). boyaro?


bromuro (H)= . bromido?


centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!)=


centrolecito (P)


ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH)


cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika (DFGJH)


decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?)


defl= egmar (ARHP). Senco?


deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D).

devenar (FJHG). de-venar?


=C2=A0


Fonti:

= A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A


B =3D Lexiko= di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B


F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guig= non


G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana da Feder & Schneeberger


H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana


J =3D plu tarda lexi= ko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detaili)


P =3D dicio= nario da Pesch


=
R =3D Raporto da Roze


=C2=A0

<= span style=3D"font-family:'Tahoma';font-size:15pt" class=3D"gmail_m= sg">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


















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<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">





















<= /div>
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Me trovis la vorti 'royal-ismo', 'royal-ist= o', 'optim-ismo', 'optim-isto', 'pesim-ismo', &= #39;pesim-isto', e.c., che Dyer. Ka la radiki 'royal', 'opt= im' e 'pesim' havas senco aparta?

Kun = kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe=C2=A0
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Me kredas ke Couturat, Jespersen, e.c.= , nultempe konsideris la prefixo 'ca-' kom problemoza. Kad on adoptis 'ho-= ' nur pro ke on inventis problemo qua praktikale ne existas? Gilles-Philip= pe On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 17:36 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [idolisto] <= idolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kara Partaka = e Gilles-Philippe, > > > > > > La prefixo "ho" e la vorto "hodie" esas en l= a Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), > kun indiko ke li ambe divenis oficala en 1= 958. La prefixo 'signifikas "dum > qua ni vivas nun"; ex. hodie, homonate, = hosemane'. Malgre ke la vorto > "hodie" aparas alfabete en la listo (inter = "hobio" e "hormono"), supozeble > pro ke ol esas la vorto qua maxim ofte ko= ntenas la prefixo, olua inkluzo en > la paragrafo sub "ho" indikas ke ol es= as "ho-di-e". > > > > > > Semblas ke la vorto "hodie" propozesis ante la pr= efixo, nam li esas en la > Raporto da Janis Roze (1937), en la suplement pr= i diversa propozi: > > > "hodie (Vort. Cor.): D heute, E to-day, F aujourd'= hui. Vice la tilnuna > =C2=ABcadie=C2=BB, multe kritikita, kritikata e krit= ikota (III, 42, 43): =C2=ABLundio e > mardio ne esis labor-dii; tadie (lund= io) me chasis, cadie (mardio) me > peskis; ma hodie (merkurdio) me laboras= =C2=BB. P. de Janko mem propozis specala > prefixo ho- =3D nuna, per qua ni= povus reguloze derivar: hodie, hosemane, > homonate, hoyare: IV, 153, 347,= 416. Vid. pluse XI, 52, la pednoto 3 da > Ilm, Federn." > > > > > > La nom= bri koncernas "Progreso" (tomi e pagini). Pri "Vort. Cor." me ne > esas cer= ta (forsan Vortaro Cornioley). Evidente la propozi sat multe > diskusesis j= a longe ante la decido en 1958. > > > > > > Pri la utileso dil prefixo, yen= plusa exemplo mea: "La poeto naskis en > 1966. Cayare esis anke grava konk= urso poeziala. Hoyare no celebras la > aniversario di amba eventi." > > > >= > > Kordiale, > > > Robert C. > > > ------------------ > > > > > > qualevi= standas@yahoo.es [idolisto] - 31 Dec 2016 03:25:14 -0800: > > > > Bon jorno= , Gilles-Philippe! > > > Quankam me konsideras ol kom poke produktiva e tot= e ne-necesa, me tre > timas ke l' prefixo "ho-" (e la vorto "hodi.e") ofica= ligesis en 1958. Tale, > on acentizas la vorto diferante, se kun prefixo o = se kom unvorta radiko. > Meajudike, la prefixo "ho-" ne uzesez e divenez ob= soleta (Ido ja havas > "ca": casemane, camonate, cayare, edc), e ni konserv= ez ed uzez nur la formo > "hodi.e", acentizata "h=C3=B3die". > > > > > > > = (Partaka) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --001a114b0af4b3f7d00545d29c06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yen plusa remarko:
Jespersen anke suportis 'cadie', = nam Novial havas 'disdi' (cadie, dis =3D ca, die =3D dio).







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=C2=A0


















Kara Partaka e Gilles-Philippe,


=C2=A0


La prefixo "ho" e la vorto "hodie" esas en la L= exiko di Nova Vorti (1988), kun indiko ke li ambe divenis oficala en 1958. = La prefixo 'signifikas "dum qua ni vivas nun"; ex. hodie, hom= onate, hosemane'. Malgre ke la vorto "hodie" aparas alfabete = en la listo (inter "hobio" e "hormono"), supozeble pro = ke ol esas la vorto qua maxim ofte kontenas la prefixo, olua inkluzo en la = paragrafo sub "ho" indikas ke ol esas "ho-di-e".=


=C2= =A0


= Semblas ke la vorto &quo= t;hodie" propozesis ante la prefixo, nam li esas en la Raporto da Jani= s Roze (1937), en la suplement pri diversa propozi:


"hodie (Vort. Cor.): D heute, E to-day,= F aujourd'hui. Vice la tilnuna =C2=ABcadie=C2=BB, multe kritikita, kri= tikata e kritikota (III, 42, 43): =C2=ABLundio e mardio ne esis labor-dii; = tadie (lundio) me chasis, cadie (mardio) me peskis; ma hodie (merkurdio) me= laboras=C2=BB. P. de Janko mem propozis specala prefixo ho- =3D nuna, per = qua ni povus reguloze derivar: hodie, hosemane, homonate, hoyare: IV, 153, = 347, 416. Vid. pluse XI, 52, la pednoto 3 da Ilm, Federn."

=C2=A0

La nombri koncernas "Pro= greso" (tomi e pagini). Pri "Vort. Cor." me ne esas certa (f= orsan Vortaro Cornioley). Evidente la propozi sat multe diskusesis ja longe= ante la decido en 1958.


=C2=A0


Pri la utileso dil prefixo, yen plusa exemplo mea: "La poeto na= skis en 1966. Cayare esis anke grava konkurso poeziala. Hoyare no celebras = la aniversario di amba eventi."


=C2=A0


Kordiale,


Robert C.


---= ---------------


=C2=A0


qualevistandas@yahoo.es [idolisto] - 31 Dec 2016 03:25:14 -0800:=C2= =A0



Bon jorno= , Gilles-Philippe!=C2=A0


Quankam me konsideras ol kom poke produktiva e tote ne-necesa, me tre t= imas ke l' prefixo "ho-" (e la vorto "hodi.e") ofic= aligesis en 1958. Tale, on acentizas la vorto diferante, se kun prefixo o s= e kom unvorta radiko. Meajudike, la prefixo "ho-" ne uzesez e div= enez obsoleta (Ido ja havas "ca": casemane, camonate, cayare, edc= ), e ni konservez ed uzez nur la formo "hodi.e", acentizata "= ;h=C3=B3die".=C2=A0






=C2=A0(PPartaka) =C2=A0


=
=C2=A0

<= br>











=




























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Fonti: (*~e*) Ju= ste (*Progreso* 306, p. 7). (Pri *pesima, *royala e.a. on facile povos ko= mpozar simila artikli) Kordiale, Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-11 14:19 GMT+= 00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Kara samideani, > Me trovis la vorti 'royal-ismo', = 'royal-isto', 'optim-ismo', 'optim-isto', > 'pesim-ismo', 'pesim-isto', e.c= ., che Dyer. Ka la radiki 'royal', 'optim' e > 'pesim' havas senco aparta? = > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > --001a113aca00df74090545d33eb8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

En SIL me p= ropozis: =C2=A0

*optim/a. Qua a= tingis la maxim bona stando [AFG optimal | H =C3=B3ptimo | I ottimo, ottimale | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=BD=D1= =8B=D0=B9 | E optimuma]= . *optimigar. Igar ulo maxim bona posible: *optimig= ar la sanesala servi [A<= span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"times new roman&= quot;,serif;color:blue"> to optimize, optimise | F optimiser | G optimieren | H = optimizar, optimar | I = ottimizzare | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8=D0=B7=D0=B8=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B0= =D1=82=D1=8C | E optimumigi]. *optimajo, l= o *optima. La maxim bona stando di ulo [AF optimum | = G= Optimum | H =C3=B3ptimo | IR =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D1=83=D0=BC | E optimumo]. REM.= optimist/<= span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"times new roman&= quot;,serif"> ed optimism/= cesez existar kom aparta radiki e reguloze derivesez = de *optim/. Fonti:<= span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:gentium"> (~e)= Juste (Progreso 306, p.=C2=A07).


(Pri *pesima, *royala e.a. on fa= cile povos kompozar simila artikli)


Kordiale,


=

Gon=C3=A7alo



<= br>
2017-01-11 14:19 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mo= rin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolis= to] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara samideani,

Me trovis la= vorti 'royal-ismo', 'royal-isto', 'optim-ismo', &#= 39;optim-isto', 'pesim-ismo', 'pesim-isto', e.c., che D= yer. Ka la radiki 'royal', 'optim' e 'pesim' havas = senco aparta?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gille= s-Philippe=C2=A0

<= /div>
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Tu skribis: "optimist/ ed optimism= / cesez existar kom aparta radiki", or ka li vere esas aparta radiki? Dyer = separas -ist e -ism. Amikale, Gilles-Philippe On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:2= 8 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > En SIL me propozis: > > **= optim*/*a.* Qua atingis la maxim bona stando [AFG *optimal* | H *=C3=B3ptim= o* > | I *ottimo*, *ottimale* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B0=D0= =BB=D1=8C=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E *optimuma*]. **optimigar.* > Igar ulo maxim= bona posible: **optimigar la sanesala servi* [A *to > optimize*,* optimise= * | F *optimiser *| G *optimieren* | H *optimizar*,* > optimar* | I *ottimi= zzare* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8=D0=B7=D0=B8=D1=80=D0=BE=D0= =B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C | E *optimumigi*]. * > *optimajo,* *lo ***optima.* La= maxim bona stando di ulo [AF *optimum* | G > *Optimum* | H *=C3=B3ptimo* |= I *ottimo* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D1=83=D0=BC | E *optimumo*].= *REM.* > *optimist*/ ed *optimism*/ cesez existar kom aparta radiki e regu= loze > derivesez de **optim/*. Fonti: (*~e*) Juste (*Progreso* 306, p. 7). = > > > (Pri *pesima, *royala e.a. on facile povos kompozar simila artikli) >= > > Kordiale, > > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > > > 2017-01-11 14:19 GMT+00:00 Gill= es-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > > > > Kara samideani, > Me trovis la vorti 'royal-ismo', 'royal-= isto', 'optim-ismo', 'optim-isto', > 'pesim-ismo', 'pesim-isto', e.c., che = Dyer. Ka la radiki 'royal', 'optim' e > 'pesim' havas senco aparta? > > Kun= kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > > --f403045ea0aa07dbe80545d3a2e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la informo. Tu skribis: "optimist/ ed = optimism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiki", or ka li vere esas aparta = radiki? Dyer separas -ist e -ism.

Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:28 Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=
= =C2=A0
=
=

Kara Gilles-Philippe,
En SIL me propozis: =C2=A0

*optim/a. Qua atingis la maxim bona stando [AFG<= /span> = optimal | H =C3=B3ptimo= | I ottimo, ottimale | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0= =B9 | E optimuma]. *optimigar. Iga= r ulo maxim bona posible: *optimigar la sanesala ser= vi [A to optimize, op= timise | F optimiser | = G optimieren | H optimizar, opt= imar | I ottimizzare = | R =D0=BE=D0= =BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8=D0=B7=D0=B8=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C= | E optimumigi]. *optimajo, lo *optima. La maxim bona stando di ulo [AF optimum | G Optimum | H =C3=B3ptimo<= /i> | I ottimo | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0= =B8=D0=BC=D1=83=D0=BC | E optim= umo]. REM. optimist/ ed optimism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiki e re= guloze derivesez de *optim/. Fonti: (~e) Juste= (Progreso 306, p.=C2=A07).


(Pri *pesima, *royala e.a. on facile povos kompo= zar simila artikli)


<= span lang=3D"SV" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:gentium" class=3D"gmai= l_msg">Kordiale,


Gon=C3=A7alo



2017-01-11 14:19 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin= gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara samideani,

Me trovis la vorti '= royal-ismo', 'royal-isto', 'optim-ismo', 'optim-ist= o', 'pesim-ismo', 'pesim-isto', e.c., che Dyer. Ka la r= adiki 'royal', 'optim' e 'pesim' havas senco aparta= ?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Phili= ppe=C2=A0

=

<= /div>

=
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Wed, 11 Jan 2017 09:19:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 09:19:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 17:19:36 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1245be213ae50545d4ce08 Subject: Re: [linguo] -ismi ed -isti X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=6SFjoWwrGgWYlvTKLrwauFk5rtTyIx_o97CylOC_dchDH65kqj_sHw X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c1245be213ae50545d4ce08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe, Se *optim/ ne existas kom aparta radiko, "optimist/ = ed optimism/ certe esas aparta radiki, mem se on prizentas oli kom optim/is= t ed optim/ism... 2017-01-11 15:55 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmori= n@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Kara Gon=C3= =A7alo, > Danko pro la informo. Tu skribis: "optimist/ ed optimism/ cesez e= xistar > kom aparta radiki", or ka li vere esas aparta radiki? Dyer separas= -ist e > -ism. > > Amikale, > Gilles-Philippe > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10= :28 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [linguolisto] wrote: > >> >> >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> En SIL me propoz= is: >> >> **optim*/*a.* Qua atingis la maxim bona stando [AFG *optimal* | H= >> *=C3=B3ptimo* | I *ottimo*, *ottimale* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0= =BC=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E *optimuma*]. * >> *optimigar.* = Igar ulo maxim bona posible: **optimigar la sanesala servi* >> [A *to optim= ize*,* optimise* | F *optimiser *| G *optimieren* | H >> *optimizar*,* opti= mar* | I *ottimizzare* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8=D0=B7=D0=B8= =D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C | E >> *optimumigi*]. **optimajo,* *lo= ***optima.* La maxim bona stando di ulo [ >> AF *optimum* | G *Optimum* | = H *=C3=B3ptimo* | I *ottimo* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D1=83=D0=BC= | E >> *optimumo*]. *REM.* *optimist*/ ed *optimism*/ cesez existar kom ap= arta >> radiki e reguloze derivesez de **optim/*. Fonti: (*~e*) Juste (*Pro= greso* >> 306, p. 7). >> >> >> (Pri *pesima, *royala e.a. on facile povos k= ompozar simila artikli) >> >> >> Kordiale, >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo >> >> >> >= > >> 2017-01-11 14:19 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>= [linguolisto] : >> >> >> >> Kara samideani, >= > Me trovis la vorti 'royal-ismo', 'royal-isto', 'optim-ismo', >> 'optim-is= to', 'pesim-ismo', 'pesim-isto', e.c., che Dyer. Ka la radiki >> 'royal', '= optim' e 'pesim' havas senco aparta? >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-P= hilippe >> >> >> > --94eb2c1245be213ae50545d4ce08 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Se *optim/ ne exis= tas kom aparta radiko, "optimist/ ed optimism/ certe esas aparta radik= i, mem se on prizentas oli kom optim/ist ed optim/ism...

2017-01-11 15:55 GMT+= 00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@= gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= :
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la informo. Tu skribis: "op= timist/ ed optimism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiki", or ka li vere e= sas aparta radiki? Dyer separas -ist e -ism.

Amikale,
Gilles-Phil= ippe

On Wed, Jan 11, 20= 17 at 10:28 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&= gt; wrote:
=
=C2=A0

=
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

En SIL me propozis: =C2=A0

*optim/a.<= /b> Qua atingis la maxim bona stando [AFG o= ptimal | H =C3=B3ptimo | I ottimo, ottimale | R =D0= =BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E optimuma]. *opt= imigar. Igar ulo maxim bona posible: *optimigar la sanesala servi [A to optimize, optimise | F optimiser | G optimieren | H optimizar, optimar | I ottimizzare | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8=D0=B7=D0=B8=D1=80=D0=BE= =D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C | E optimumigi]<= /span>. *optimajo, lo *optima.= La maxim bona stando di ulo [AF optimu= m | G<= /span> Optimum | H =C3=B3ptimo | I ottim= o | R<= /span> =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1= =82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D1=83=D0=BC | E optimumo]. REM. opti= mist/ ed optimism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiki e reguloze derivesez de *optim/. Fonti: (<= span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"times new roman",serif"= class=3D"m_8406983901982581462gmail_msg" lang=3D"SV">~e) Juste (Pr= ogreso 306, p.=C2=A07).


= (P= ri *pesima, *royala e.a. on facile povos kompozar simila artikli)


Kordiale,


Gon=C3=A7alo


<= /p>


=

2017-01-11 14:19 GMT+00:00 Gilles-P= hilippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2= =A0
=

Kara samideani,

Me trovis la vorti 'royal-ismo', 'ro= yal-isto', 'optim-ismo', 'optim-isto', 'pesim-ismo&= #39;, 'pesim-isto', e.c., che Dyer. Ka la radiki 'royal', &= #39;optim' e 'pesim' havas senco aparta?

<= /div>
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe=C2=A0
=

=


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Kara Gilles-Philippe, Danko pri vua komenti. Me ne havas tempo por diskutar omno detaloze. Vu e me darfas havar opinioni, ma mea listo esas por indikar ke la lexiki bezonas adminime multa klarigi ed emendi, e mem unesme decidi da ULI. Esas probable multa altra vorti problemoza (mem komencante per litero a-d). "aerpinselo" esas en Roze ye la fino di pagino 5, semble ne kom vorto kompozita (aer-pinsel-o?). Ka vorto esas kompozita ek plura radiki ne esas inter la plu grava problemi, ma mencioninda. Simile pri astro(-)fiziko, de(-)turnar e de(-)venar. Pri "centigrado" vu dicas "centigrado: esas centimo (°) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da Celsius." Centimo di quo? On lektas ofte ke la temperaturo dil aero esas 10 gradi C. Me ne memoras irgafoye lektar ke la temperaturo esas 10 centigradi. (Kompreneble, por tre preciza mezuri por cienco on povas dividar la grado a centimi o mem milimi.) Pluse me kredas ke Pesch eroras, dicante ke centigrado esas "Dividita a 100 gradi", ma ke centigramo esas "Parto centima di gramo" e centilitro esas "Parto centima di litro". Parenteze, esas stranja ke en linguo qua multe uzas afixi, on ne kreas vorti quala centimetro e centilitro (same integra segun Dyer) explicite per uzo di prefixo "centi-"! La sistemo metrala ipsa uzas multa prefixi. Pro quo adoptar singla vorto unope (tale ke multa vorti metrala esas ankore ne oficala)? Fakte la skalo da Celsius ne esas ta qua esas uzata nun. Ilua skalo havis cent gradi inter du punti ma segun ol aquo bolias ye 0 e konjelas ye 100. La skalo uzata nun inversigis ta da Celsius. Probable on ofte nomas la nuna skalo "Celsius" ne nur por memorar lu ma anke pro problemo pri la senco di "(*)centigrada/o". Segun la sistemo metrala, la Franca vorto "centigrade" esas centimo di grado di angulo, quale centimetro esas centimo di metro, e "grado" (vorto qua havas tro multa senci en Ido) esas centimo di orto. Kordiale, Robert C. Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade": Centième partie du grade, unité d'angle. Échelle de température à 100 degrés, aujourd'hui appelée échelle Celsius. - http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/centigrade/14111 centigrade adj inv 1 divisé en cent degrés (sur une échelle de température) nm 2 centième de grade, en tant qu'unité angulaire (symbole : cg) 3 qualifiait autrefois une échelle de températures sur cent degrés - http://dictionnaire.reverso.net/francais-definition/centigrade ---------- Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 10 Jan 2017 22:14:59 -0500: aerpinselo: me ne komprenas la problemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo" che Roze? aktina: forsan F actinique E actinic, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena defino: "Dicesas pri radiaco qua facas ago kemiala ye diversa substanci." alegreto: Me ne savas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) havas "alegr-eto". Ka to importas? alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptesis: http://interlanguages.net/aster.html alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "alkaraveo". Me ne savas de ube to venas. aktina: Me ne vidas lu... amebocita: certe "amebocito". Tala vorto ne falas de la cielo. analitika: segun Dyer, "analitiko" e "analitikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) konkordas. "Andora" esas en Dyer.Quo esas la problemo kun "api-pomo"? Quale "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kapro", lu esas sat internaciona. aplanatika: segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya "apokromata". Nu, to esas evidenta. arterito: *arteriito esas neoficala segun Dyer. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. *arterito esas plu internaciona (EFIS). Nu, vartez! Me ya trovis ulo pri la oficaligo di "arterito": http://interlanguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranje mencionas "arterito" vice "arteriito" (tale quale "alkado"). astrofiziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dyer (cf. astro). Ultre to, me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di *astrofiziko. astroida: astr-oida. atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (regiono en Grekia) + -ismo = Atik-ismo = atikismo (Dyer ne konservis la mayuskulo en derivaji: angora-kapro, anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retorikala. autogamo: autogama. Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", ma lu korektigis la eroro. autokrona: autokroma, quaze certe. bekafigo: bekafiko, segun Dyer. bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer (cf. barnacle). Komparez ter-pomo, mar-hundo, e.c. Botna: quo esas Botnia? boyardo: boyaro, segun Dyer. bromuro: nu, "bromido" esas oficala depos 2001... centigrado: esas centimo (°) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da Celsius. centrolecito: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vidas problemo kun ta vorto... Tamen, me ne komprenas la "centrolecit-ala" qua trovesas en la dicionario da Konstantin Yegupov: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/ ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke lu esas neoficala. On oficaligis lu kom "ciliara": http://interlanguages.net/aster.html cinetiko: Dyer havas amba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu definesas kom "kinetic (energy)", do "kinetiko" esas energio (kinetika), tale quale "potencialo" (energio potenciala) o "kaloro" (energio termala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm), lu esas "mekanikala" vorto, ed en la Trésor (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala senco esas adjektivo. Tamen, forsan Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze cherpis la defino di la substantivo de ula dicionario. decidua: Ha! ha! ha! Pesch prenis la defino di la Franca "décidu" vice "caduque". Mem la defino substantivala di "caduque" esas preske celita en la Trésor: http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/caduque. deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pesch, di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la Franca "déflegmer". deturnar: de-turnar, segun Dyer. devenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, "de-venar"! Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula defini esas trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso. aerpinselo (RH) od aer-pinselo? aktina (B) alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)? alkado (P) > alkaldo alkaraneo (B) amebocita (B). amebocito? analitika (HP). analitik-ala? Andoro (G). Andora api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo. aplanatika (P) apokromatra (B). apokromata? arterito (P). arteriito? astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko? astroida (P) atik-ismo (G). atikajo? autogamo (B). autogama? autokrona (B). autokroma? bekafigo (P). bekafiko? bernaklo-muslo (D). Botna (H). Botnia? boyardo (P). boyaro? bromuro (H). bromido? centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!) centrolecito (P) ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH) cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika (DFGJH) decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?) deflegmar (ARHP). Senco? deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D). devenar (FJHG). de-venar? Fonti: A = Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A B = Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon G = lexiko Ido-Germana da Feder & Schneeberger H = lexiko Ido-Hispana J = plu tarda lexiko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detaili) P = dicionario da Pesch R = Raporto da Roze ============= From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4755 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 7736 invoked by uid 102); 12 Jan 2017 03:21:42 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 03:21:42 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 10507 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2017 03:21:42 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 03:21:42 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.45 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: unHGlk8WLDsBvlCBXOD3n86S2YFBiM_2ZOuWSo73NqRyrdlY 4OjA7KuPP7971IdeK.yl92IUteocCZl9fBndkxrdpeGcrbft.5nZvBgoZkCe .0fd0nsGTmnZ.ECRRB_.wAG6GgN7pzYYrXrKEak.glGubVHhHRYC9ZWFC3vR eIXKmecdf2IKefx8EKvu2HLqu.BxCIS6N_akRiaYBf5HrtkHh42t7opRHTLS dgceUiajTb1hlFbwz3B4bdU6r.gpt5xdFFS0NeRoUEgWh1vcosIOExpyCuXc CpHP60Y_yAem67haXAHYk2VvpqghciDayYwYNclAZl1ZkBSmx_PG4TR20FvS qboAp.fBXfLKtURXnCbuUcKpeBnJc_soV.aVnw49TqptMnmGMzOJk1tPmPqK FTiOqw6A31e7lc9Vhm7nqJ9AuxrKQpwu9NZWLOXU9iKmFmlbKhoNVuXqlZ_I 1y0eBo03QG6al3FlAGZXEnoSaIYWmb5eKvh83ppXmRBZqPdVVziDu01u7212 JWn8aC_UN5LqkIOM27qAQT57F0WUOGmmHsmTGQy_NtE5C2t2DmmzOeQL_Q72 tzInwzQS.WIn21cgLoUhRNoMIPYVSzaQlpnTN1bPG7keFygHrm7XYJqQb5sG e7O7BbDHRREg3M3QrqYPwg35UYpE3Yr1rT224c.XI04KNI1EIXjSWQv3chlW npwOEcJFC1yI59RAx8RcDi43uPcC1uRr8iUGFK4V6FksGtc364lZSNQdekyO XNhJ6ojbc6Am4RS3RJd4YAbWE_.fxZtuH_H0lGJzGJxWBTr2zEJat3naJ_7c 6Zu4vEvKFnjbwbYS0gNNNu.DCPNlxTnTEr29CGTIkrllCX4JOyLe3F8_f8jA a07AWA9ZOgbA9N6ifh6pywN7gfMVye4RMRxRB4iGLtuhymoByi_cmKMJ67IE RrBweDTT7I.K4KnOVB7tvMmxDx6S47XbpsD3QDxHSqLMfMyXHbDVHmxq1MZF Eu5UZAVkaoKiOyq5lSOFTgPelcmSro3BsvcNVntdbL25SxuJiFGgUICIp9gi GkT3r_a_O67ZtHQwYYsdcf.A4Pg0K_0.i0WKD5G2_tYmwGfqNj.Go4meZytF .tgIDawKyP_OEYArekAVrpChgVtbXCmAbStw5UGNK5NHkT.ftXsC.pkLHFxu T4LNBFjthMqU2OFSJoNnESHKSE0hFaKoIDm5mcH1zEwK0TI.c9PsW4tEqLWD e5nMkprKQOeF6K0- Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f45.google.com) (209.85.215.45) by mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 03:21:42 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f45.google.com with SMTP id k86so4529250lfi.0 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 19:21:41 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=K0hc2QN/snD4iUTrua9taT1byIIRddxIf/trTf1cghg=; b=Rv9X8uqTZfOROFwmNqMaBopS6L1ZBanotF1djsFuCUVLe4snwIKmWVkMJgT0cOOWGv 1Mx/pqLJHWHz9uLNsxR6zQzDL+Ahsh9KULgR2V1g/dQJg37GfZAMZRifWxsInbKHHm1k cFP4Pzf9QdKaUm+EbJPtysUVxOt3xTGC8MJAMNy0VZRIGBwFwFHWbAJ6OlsA4yrTsO7l uGat1yT5lHPgY6Cu+Ecw+UsBwLJXfp3Tm8GpNvMX9k3XvYGhIZfHBCW8fFQufRdiX479 +mq3CLu5mPI5ZO58jFJtLIFFWOvQ05B2Z8bAdZRoFDz4BhwAtoZd9IEk84FuT+wHpDxT WfWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKLgFOv4QDz5bX19u+QQWzamj4Zezw6AZXlQwJmaBgDehLZZ3m+jL42LSEzxyc8YQPah0njmT0q22y78A== X-Received: by 10.25.93.65 with SMTP id p1mr3616037lfj.120.1484191300710; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 19:21:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 03:21:30 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045e57fe41f7400545dd3709 Subject: Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045e57fe41f7400545dd3709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Kara samideani, Segun Pesch, Dyer e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di qua la uzo restriktesas a 'vento', 'ondi', 'kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me kelkafoye vidis ta vorto uzata por bovi, tale quale en Esperanto. Ka la defino esas eroro, o kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe --f403045e57fe41f7400545dd3709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara samideani,
Segun Pesch, Dyer e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar= 9; esas verbo, di qua la uzo restriktesas a 'vento', 'ondi'= , 'kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me kelkafoye vidis ta vorto uzat= a por bovi, tale quale en Esperanto.=C2=A0

Ka la d= efino esas eroro, o kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro?
<= div>
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
--f403045e57fe41f7400545dd3709-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4756 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 27677 invoked by uid 102); 12 Jan 2017 03:26:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 03:26:10 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 32726 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2017 03:26:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 03:26:10 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: fGCg5CEWLDuIyOSBzmy1vAfKAv4dv7yCiuN3Ckg_.Vhieuan Lw1ce.VFMAVf9.TI7GbqBf2nVx61Uz9ZUqiMovM52Np1hPf2GO1dYjGH1hcl bqTEcfYFbpZK8dKpllXprX3F1VVBrguE3325uB64rmV8_SV5pfPX9aeqbR10 qwVCJF1Tz1Xgtx9yItlKeP4lZxPtH3FVyMwj2VswcIZFrTAl8K2pOGnN6fOq 9KZkeqpiNHKvc20_n3Yv.m.KHe2_ssurHxMylza6LLmvkek.Nbf8qt4tUy16 3ztDldtledeEyqOk2qYLMH9DM5z_KCmRNXrEv1G_PFR0mzTufaBe6nbrur7M RDFaww4r5AvNFFZCWLeWBIgpaipXg6Bi6byGuMtE5L1my1pueY9FKwdC976V DJH2zf3DICYeR06rXul7MfMoaiMdZy07Cewx5ocunvG1YlOneF.vGyODkLFi uOaO9z9B7YDijExdAUyKlYrCVf1MVhP852_q6T494DPN1Kq3yVcmE8M8tGTc VMCIhKoA6oQL7yKF.ndE_hpaexrFL.W.JXZzNYRo1cxtKu_QGHgduP1t7aub B_Bc7O_UpgLYlBHS7c5D4pmOavdKnUjLzni1HH6Dv_QpqYVe9G8faHcVp_Tn L3uF5wLj_24yzAVlrRUcTG01qpYY9LTCcSxv06oQYYvk7OMoGbE58SbKETs7 tTjlzY8I4K20y6sYshFARJLCKDwpaaCVxG5pueKFL6KSruqhgCGtJv0h_O__ yEmNOAiQ1GnZcbaeV4_Q_50IxObx6YTse686HypcpIHQ5yw2xa5Ic8ASaCXY K7UuWUeO66cQVdgyMnH9I7.3Zmu35lIXW2ypIgw3wIHzUZjBo4w_6NCuTqvX RjOwZjm28_AOm8apJFoPl7SCB3tCDlsmEmIg5geHr8clRb_ZVuNI4BHvHhGV phc2FTaG3_GfF.BhtIymuEvK873TVqztvpe8sqI_JwpR7AEgixV9rrgwbdL4 qXajLG9MOpXYrU8uJZlSRgaKD3bNVGEbh4Xo7W3dbnBDXpJDRiWI8f2RZghL GL2k0zD8uGb3kyYdYjMr7useRAaRBICUY7iyZO0_44emZdg.nMPRiD.Qnmoa qe_cMejIkM3vekTPr.2fPN_9tK0PVFdSJrcvL4UdCH1SmjWELVp2w64o2Eqh Q2usXLztFmb4VMP8k51VkI6Iy.GosbA7.i_LvM_oTfxdH4cqsNt8ifyfYkS7 AjtD2r7yWhZeWxqvklQW078_mnb1gJ9xqp0ocDBzEXoSitRKatIilOAb9oG6 hDa5HgpwAsvbPlnbm2jrdw1RI8q9Bm5SaovgKAW3Qi2gOs2_VYTD_hLRehN5 zQ5YGd4qoJ5ViWpvcJf_DafJKnOKTjFbMFiTKg03ithKj4dcE989Xw0Y6eIL 18N3q6I0FuW1KdI72Oasd6refkDGdUaBjC_FA2MDeU5tfu9Zv8WYaA7DX1zw NR3Jm7Cea3zI61slOM4B7HVxtHMArCGD_nZp2WPrqkhIkDuyJ5n1zjHQStXW F1tdV52_u8YL3CyltQFhOD7WYnZMH2nugxcrZbnLEXVtmY8Bz1d9AOq1qv19 WEzAZGH1mo4- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f48.google.com) (209.85.215.48) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 03:26:10 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f48.google.com with SMTP id z134so955658lff.3 for ; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 19:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=v9pFsE7nVUrR08dhrfKxxlILrJs7v+bJ9Jq+mIylpRg=; b=nQRgb5s8k1Kd+vzT4RLyDDdJyDjxuD4A2crt0RS/wDWcwG6pQy4/oDAUnFuoskv6qf /JifqMJmt1W7kT4hXe6sQiBG1VnTKTzJyhCGT79BqK8MPXU/WBM1BLPMsVjD8uJEUUpM eXvyhqy8eCAHNURgnOK91KgH/crHTBLppMrjJyUnH+yDBCv4RB75ptAA3Cd2XsWZooN4 gDnC11tX2jISv5WF5aCyIp1X9klInPd00I0V86zBcmWeKTNVCVoEiExEuorigRr3mkig +LiHiuUmLiyBHFRmpCA5CvNNiWeqzRsVb8i/nhDhXtRLHGkHw4h+LnUTZ/Q0OaTWDwLM 0aWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKOCoqGL+HuLiqHlNGDNQe9AgqDglUNxwrcDXO4yanE3AFrK2nIijXVd0tyc3Cu6h/EsKnMAt3/u7clHg== X-Received: by 10.25.56.22 with SMTP id f22mr4024251lfa.0.1484191568813; Wed, 11 Jan 2017 19:26:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20161231223655.474607@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 03:25:58 +0000 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ea0aa3ce64a0545dd47fa Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: [idolisto] Re: Dicionario dil ULI X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ea0aa3ce64a0545dd47fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu, me tote konkordas. Gilles-Philippe On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:50 quale= vistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Me konjektas, ke on adopti= s la sufixo "ho-" pro influo de > Occidental/Interlingue, e por ke ol funci= onez kom formo paralela ad irga > "ca" kun refero tempal. On komencus per p= rikonciar l'internacioneso dil > vorto "hodie" (h=C3=B3die) plu bona kam "c= a-die", e pose, on dicus: "e pro quo > ne adoptar "ho-" (quale Interlingue)= , e lore disponar ne nur "ho-die", ma > anke "hosemane, homonate, hoyare", = edc? E me respondus: pro ke "ho-" esas > tote ne-necesa: suficas "hodi.e" (= ne "ho-die"). Por irgo altra, ni ja havas > "ca" (ca-semane, ca-monate, ca-= yare, edc.). E yes, ni anke havas "ca-die", > qua semblas mem plu "ho-die" = kam "hodi.e", nam olca uzesas anke por la > senco "nun-tempe, nun-epoke", e= dc. > > (Partaka) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --f403045ea0aa3ce64a0545dd47fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, me tote konkordas.

Gilles-Philippe
On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:50 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:















=C2=A0









Me konj= ektas, ke on adoptis la sufixo "ho-" pro influo de Occidental/Int= erlingue, e por ke ol funcionez kom formo paralela ad irga "ca" k= un refero tempal. On komencus per prikonciar l'internacioneso dil vorto= "hodie" (h=C3=B3die) plu bona kam "ca-die", e pose, on= dicus: "e pro quo ne adoptar "ho-" (quale Interlingue), e l= ore disponar ne nur "ho-die", ma anke "hosemane, homonate, h= oyare", edc? E me respondus: pro ke "ho-" esas tote ne-neces= a: suficas "hodi.e" (ne "ho-die"). Por irgo altra, ni j= a havas "ca" (ca-semane, ca-monate, ca-yare, edc.). E yes, ni ank= e havas "ca-die", qua semblas mem plu "ho-die" kam &quo= t;hodi.e", nam olca uzesas anke por la senco "nun-tempe, nun-epok= e", edc.=C2=A0


=C2=A0= (Partaka) =C2=A0=C2=A0






=













--f403045ea0aa3ce64a0545dd47fa-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4757 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 31648 invoked by uid 102); 12 Jan 2017 11:09:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 11:09:40 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 4320 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2017 11:09:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.121) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 11:09:40 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.175 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: p9s_IqoWLDtGRP5t7dV5tU.LRZzhk6Jy4vb4lTp9WMm9GBIv PxUmRX4Oq5rOUEe4YCdgqD0cXcnSPgk1gErs3eg3bvrVUAiSyfkFXIZdsAAg dvMDzFidt71LCZWszJe96AFZF6Zowld4xU1QC9tqGvA.RpcNe76X37PG4orQ 4wEq1O9dJQH4fMnlIPuBlmkJxbcE_X3mlRH8kFsqPtmoTGc9toapxvS7TX10 b7ORcIDkRu.y0xlnpSze7Oy0pCooMCs6AAPTKFzHHfbvKTM4ge6he146qowE t97DKlHHAE2Oiac0J.J5qv2imVvkrnwRmQKpzv3xmGxkHHHCnqlWM9zDSEyV uTg9MxX9vuZpquJkS2rg6z00ikpt1ph5PBWKVjKp8P5lpJ0_HSbwkWjMT.BY C6oxMPAQYkNuUsXizB9e5NeqbhlSOS01aSrO3zeCn36bcX3fXrTWLXo5XK5g byURit1_0jfvbUeOufXvw.j2igtdk.HBuTAxlRhAWLM3J7hGW1rzQc9_vSWv zrn5xv0tAX89flNOsuP9AGRTq3FEP85DgIlAsOC80KZlh9qiHbT5e.Bs71oY WZxrI1Jo3VhtLg3kTXrAd84ba6jjAxZkKReIVrFOoyrK_Ab3ULmcxepz5FWZ 9sNZy0TsdpYRmL_GmOA6TkhXWdj9_7eA_cr1eEZv5HRem7bYFkfr6S_I22Wv sxjEZQVJCnJQJ6m4TAhr9grRlhZWfo90Pal0SeCgvgRGAIQCQNk1oKuiBflG ZFAesx0CQvNz0gxdNEH36uCpHVmz1akfty5eS2oFZmemcv.1MNYttNgXzxQE POqXJR_7aMrKjwk9daPdSgL9dT2ulPoV0r_E_NQMoZvolDqtlHhEorWsDTgc 4zqlIL_TIZIsVALfNKVwBGcEsnrF7GQUuzW0e8p9rutCnv5RlZAc0ZycT7VU oWcAJdqp6Jc197F9tSXPw_kc.2Zn1CboOX.JX8NYILLUiglmaIlNmEzkKuvY ZYYkQfz0d2GxgCD1s4yiYGKe7YIZvHh9Wp6T.BjkOaAsXlfFDlPujUQedaZe 6NkhkfxlVJcE2V5kexxWjB020ruOqzD9gIpsP.ivE6_B0jlSewqH4ybPn3bf Owt1u51U_mnvZRCANxJtP4l55I1yipia_paEJReSqpyjOSMW7MtewrR5Volj .T46CzIhC1HxLC9bcuayfxSXVGR56MCsZTi28CYzU6pUX7xi_OiNgu5R9w5c myEdGBNtzxukirAuSxdull6CxafjUEUM5aEN82vp_TL6U2q_kUr1t5ECWd1_ PwkQQbSMWoL93yxPn2ZQEsTx8ClSrATCKzpoYPoZ0sHrxNoVQn1wwpPA912R MJG2ZcCV_JRZms91GPg9VjpjY6esxCd9o4CjEPx1OvUz.WS.dNeVqelRRC4v ONcA1kK8JOylsLfu44VtfvLbN3xq5RSg5PAVsg71RWkaPZe.HdWxW6IFQA-- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f175.google.com) (209.85.217.175) by mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 11:09:40 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 96so11527463uaq.3 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 03:09:40 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=4yyrN0h7QRC+i38jtBQQ/t12QH4DS1Y+KH6lDKhBj50=; b=H9XarqMrGhEipQKCjEx8QkiTJ9ArK20zYBgiNRvYPXRjWV9EW4nyv/DC2PImYh2OCU BKk2RbLRkfWoqcbRgZ8hV9ZRCDwa43LKDEMwu4dgNW/vxSUOVYNT7Tm1bHHGuLuUMAOb pfW5UY3ne93kZ0MG7WpQFSZS02zoEfRcwU/ok8sYw1ZkcPGICmkkRZ9huGXjkkayTXYg +UwLIP+qkOd/EKy4k9mmI/YWZoFcCASdb1+oX1xftWi5Y4AGD2/1tHZL3xCecYwa7V1h zAhx6ss/m+vtTpK/j3L/XcPj1ZBAU2druUK4p8E8jOUsFC3NebAQ2m5YaB0QjSjQp4IB w9Dg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIlLxv2GVwYiD4L0b34LD3nkB3TKRnKu92uMwp+DI77PF8KHYXjti4dX+FGlVmQxOkMfGmTuZznX9ukTA== X-Received: by 10.159.48.203 with SMTP id k11mr7208650uab.42.1484219379495; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 03:09:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 03:09:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 11:09:39 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045e34f4e236e00545e3c06b Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=3ltwRKg2H-yc4HfVTT_2ANzEtgZU0grh2aXSkm5zooc15RSTx-WBvQ X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --f403045e34f4e236e00545e3c06b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe, Yen lo skribita da me en SIL: Kelka-foye me rezolvi= s enduktar vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexikala lakuni en Ido. Exemple,= me konstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti, kande me probis tradukar= la sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di *Animal farm* (=E2=80=9CLa bestio= -farmeyo=E2=80=9D) da George Orwell: =E2=80=9C*And then, after a few prel= iminary tries, the whole farm burst out into =E2=80=98Beasts of England=E2= =80=99 in tremendous unison. The cows lowed it, the dogs whined it, the she= ep bleated it, the horses whinnied it, the ducks quacked it.*=E2=80=9D Ye= n mea traduk-probo: =E2=80=9C*E lore, pos poka probi preliminara, la tota f= armeyo komencis kantar =E2=80=9CBestii di Anglia=E2=80=9D per perfekta unis= ono. La bovi mujis ol, la hundi aboyis ol, la mutoni *blekis ol, la kavali = *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol.*=E2=80=9D Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata= hike, me propozas en la lexiko anke le sequanta: **brear* (asno), **honkar= * (ganso), **mekar* (kapro) e **rorar* (leono, tigro e altra granda felini)= . 2017-01-12 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [ling= uolisto] : > > > Kara samideani, > Segun Pesc= h, Dyer e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di qua la > uzo restrik= tesas a 'vento', 'ondi', 'kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me kelkafoye > vidis ta v= orto uzata por bovi, tale quale en Esperanto. > > Ka la defino esas eroro, = o kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro? > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gille= s-Philippe > > > --f403045e34f4e236e00545e3c06b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Yen lo skribita da= me en SIL:

Kelka-foye me rezolvi= s enduktar vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexikala lakuni en Ido. Exemple,= me konstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti, kande me probis tradukar= la sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di Animal farm (=E2=80=9CLa b= estio-farmeyo=E2=80=9D) da George Orwell:

=C2=A0

=E2=80=9C= And then, after a few preliminary tries, the whole farm burst out into =E2= =80=98Beasts of England=E2=80=99 in tremendous unison. The cows lowed it, t= he dogs whined it, the sheep bleated it, the horses whinnied it, the ducks = quacked it.=E2=80=9D


Yen mea traduk= -probo: =E2=80=9CE lore, pos poka proobi preliminara, la tota farmeyo kom= encis kantar =E2=80=9CBestii di Anglia=E2=80=9D per perfekta unisono. La bo= vi mujis ol, la hundi aboyis ol, la mutoni *blekis ol, la kavali *hi= nis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol.=E2=80=9D Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata= hike, me propozas en la lexiko anke le sequanta: *brear (asno), = *honkar (ganso), *mekar (kapro) e *rorar (leono, tigro e = altra granda felini).

2017-01-12 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gill= es-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
Kara samideani,

Segun Pesch, Dyer e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'muj= ar' esas verbo, di qua la uzo restriktesas a 'vento', 'ondi= ', 'kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me kelkafoye vidis ta vorto= uzata por bovi, tale quale en Esperanto.=C2=A0

Ka= la defino esas eroro, o kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


--f403045e34f4e236e00545e3c06b-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4758 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 52440 invoked by uid 102); 12 Jan 2017 15:03:24 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 15:03:24 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 20026 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2017 15:03:23 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 15:03:23 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.42 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 05XNU8UWLDu7KqYEUrZQjFvT2Rl6V27LOu4fWefOit.U459T vZbDNihIjWQz2JlhlvTVJ3U.aQLSky_FhXOToqrYwJxxGuTNshbE46AxYd_d npaYiX21.VP6GXgAzvrNodgMosk4tbqZC896hMtUKBJwe1vmVpeGSPhIDHIo sJVswB7QPtIJK979lq_thnWQcPIcZlRYGG9od8TJgK0PhH20dDl2dvpnq8cU OmveS8.btRFvgREzc2gZxkbRJzYoxivtMveNsUTkRWGKBSzhrb_MqnSvW9FU R4xsxxxt5MnQDXlIUOCHNgDRspQCFg5V7XH4Cut4p84yZqlH4.0ziViVz6yI YPMLDvywuqqWoC4wTN2xua3OcxPxuVCqhN_Zlsjagf1pu4OsoE2PMDOhk34P EhCrtIVXPGGnbJl1LftXgXz8MSRAH36AQUS6mwLhOwU3_X5gkSeElEj7Hlio 1eEokgZCE2nRaBacQGFZlj0F2b.hLjAWCp5qGGzMM04K9GQfB4lsf94CxaGU 9NP4INUxp_2_zkiBdQtbb67aQrT8NrCi3aiinME5Vcm8PmbsXPPZFHjtb_V5 ckMubF9BOxJmpQf3IrkWzE6YJdhr1J3uRqaaqBoQJn9MWPb1zc3k2X1De_7J TGkDIwwK0rlT1Q61aO41YyAkRdw58xC_ukMG32hkbarVk5z6SLF1iHSo4oWY z.BJhm91JGrJ2pHDP3NYky1jbAavBVrd6AEmmh6GUOVyxvP1fzzqnU5G14.w 9VqTZ9XBuvM1JtgQhO0oU7fnUVm4dV_I2zrfbRTzeVDdKCLvSRqFj85GMOfB FZ7LUKLc82I8zfkWRSJVF1KAMCUEeAeYPraE6Ba7OIaN.J.QWAmLdbRCRk7C _AI0RZpXyiD_05RvXvMXxnkDYWh7HD3dIS3_c03D07q4J2c36IJSRKj8ZThM LR6LsV1RtjGLGOi91aYUUWIu5RMBkWHhmE0O5mxY6UPbsujqWnbLqet8EHrk QUhrT7FhlEmgq5dlcwHw4whh2kTms0LeTU5XQ5yQevN4XU6g8US1EPnVh9zF VEmHwv6Mc8Pp7.IxbuXkGgIBwYUTm7wzkLa_zQ_.mjpgI0.3en7ZYd6I.GfI FOoRj2lypknnvyvD_cZiCYI1Pt33N8JNqyuwTNEpvXlRmybY.4svUsMRAQRn aFJ7VgCCkknSR7lGP0mBeUVFHxuVOnhOmB6l3MXFJan1uakPfZLc7Krz5Qo0 qCzpFIkAwej_4hMjdnkVDiH._72Oje.XNdF5HymLCtuwn3asJZrI2AovNBr. 5TWGiock6xPfrcWKJAv._yNkNxgvJW8k9ulsiYejeGsEwm7P2NR3ArcSp0jN JjnkVtS59xPNnnK7rWd8MwfuV0h0HMeZ6v7UiJKl0Od.1GQk2o5rxv8O..9d 67ikJRxLw2N7SZCTwIEhGA9a5WW3SFCdg8BIvAI_mDoJd7XUG_kYBRM_BcJD U0ofoI0xNp1aTQ90driGIgMoCckzAmtNvcLTa_6RC4BDkbf7lVXMbsJO1EsC MVz8Tceaimi5Uw-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f42.google.com) (209.85.215.42) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:03:22 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f42.google.com with SMTP id k86so14835537lfi.0 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 07:03:21 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=tK7JsIjWlj5e91MYZoG2lujw+Doulx2dDg9nX/dZoJA=; b=fP0+fu2/tAkmZoP6bY8KIIHK98EFwQaiJ0RjeZyUR7W2XRov5pwqRCcLXn6QT8Pv7Y yrcZJkNAsXgai830HWsRhI3Xy6LysQCBPpZLg/erZnT/BhNrhITiwW5XpsbJsaQ9/ZeR 5xsmrWVICPHrjh9t5Twwk/jdwHYVldGAKs7ZqNIgxc4NFbquSMcylTsE+PIU1AEeva8u yvF5ewX3DtPkFWMMTU/ia0ySbBJ5ChFtujk49vY/mEzX33EdVRAdcZ41Qt73Twzq7Qoi GEe5swfavMpnX2aAbAGh4tQOlTibvTOaot1CB0KtsnrAZQWarTAgDIjRrg8gHVkeqU+z Oa4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKHjiEDquvoP/1YiQFO8MCzKo2TOoyq6iX5ppyR7z/1TT2N5bJtXenOrvD1bk17g+xwdjUSqMwJBozqbA== X-Received: by 10.25.56.22 with SMTP id f22mr5094187lfa.0.1484233400044; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 07:03:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 15:03:09 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ea0aa92d06d0545e70462 Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ea0aa92d06d0545e70462 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, Danko pro tua respondo. Me ja lektabis tua traduko di An= imal Farm. Tamen, ka tala uzo di 'mujar' ne esas neoficala? Kad on ne devas= uzar lu kun steleto? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Thu, Jan 12,= 2017 at 06:09 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: = Kara Gilles-Philippe, Yen lo skribita da me en SIL: Kelka-foye me r= ezolvis enduktar vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexikala lakuni en Ido. E= xemple, me konstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti, kande me probis = tradukar la sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di *Animal farm* (=E2=80=9CL= a bestio-farmeyo=E2=80=9D) da George Orwell: =E2=80=9C *And t= hen, after a few preliminary tries, thewhole farm burst out into =E2=80=98B= easts of England=E2=80=99 in tremendous unison. The cowslowed it, the dogs = whined it, the sheep bleated it, the horses whinnied it, theducks quacked i= t.*=E2=80=9D Yen mea traduk-probo: =E2=80=9C *E lore, pos poka probi = preliminara, la tota farmeyo komenciskantar =E2=80=9CBestii di Anglia=E2=80= =9D per perfekta unisono. La bovi mujis ol, la hundiaboyis ol, la mutoni *b= lekis ol, la kavali *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol.*=E2=80=9D Ultre= la bramo-vorti uzata hike, me propozas en la lexiko anke le sequanta: **br= ear* (asno), **honkar* (ganso), **mekar* (kapro) e **rorar* (leono, tigro= e altra granda felini). 2017-01-12 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : = Kara samideani, Segun Pesch, Dyer e= la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di qua la uzo restriktesas a 've= nto', 'ondi', 'kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me kelkafoye vidis ta vorto uzata po= r bovi, tale quale en Esperanto. Ka la defino esas eroro, o kad uzar 'muja= r' por bovi ya esas eroro? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe = --f403045ea0aa92d06d0545e70462 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro tua res= pondo. Me ja lektabis tua traduko di Animal Farm. Tamen, ka tala uzo di = 9;mujar' ne esas neoficala? Kad on ne devas uzar lu kun steleto?
<= div>
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
On Thu, Jan = 12, 2017 at 06:09 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] = <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




























=C2=A0








=










=

Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Yen lo skribita da me en SIL:

Kelka-foye me=

rezolvis enduktar vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexikala lakuni e= n Ido.

Exemple, me konstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti, ka= nde me probis

tradukar la sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di Animal farm (=E2=80=9CLa

bestio-farmeyo=E2=80= =9D) da George Orwell:



=C2=A0

<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)" class=3D"gmail_msg">



=E2=80=9CAnd then, after a few preliminary tries, the

whole fa= rm burst out into =E2=80=98Beasts of England=E2=80=99 in tremendous unison.= The cows

lowed it, the dogs whined it, the sheep bleated it, the ho= rses whinnied it, the

ducks quacked it.=E2=80=9D


Yen mea

traduk-probo: =E2=80=9CE lore, pos poka probi preliminara, la tota farmeyo komencis=

kantar =E2=80=9CBestii di Anglia=E2=80=9D per perfekta unisono. La = bovi mujis ol, la hundi

aboyis ol, la mut= oni *blekis ol, la kavali *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol.=E2=80= =9D

Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata hike, me propozas en la lexiko anke l= e sequanta: *brear

(asno), *honkar (ganso), *mekar (kapro) e <= i class=3D"gmail_msg">*rorar (leono,

tigro e altra granda felini= ).

<= div style=3D"background-color:#fff" class=3D"gmail_msg">

<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">
2017-01-12 3:21= GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:






















<= br>






=C2=A0
















Kara samideani,

Segun Pesch, Dyer e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' es= as verbo, di qua la uzo restriktesas a 'vento', 'ondi', = 9;kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me kelkafoye vidis ta vorto uzata por= bovi, tale quale en Esperanto.=C2=A0

Ka la defino esas eroro, o = kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro?

Kun kordiala sal= uti,
Gilles-Philippe












=

















<= br>









<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">



























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--f403045ea0aa92d06d0545e70462-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4759 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 7747 invoked by uid 102); 12 Jan 2017 22:01:56 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m12.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 22:01:56 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 22398 invoked from network); 12 Jan 2017 22:01:56 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 12 Jan 2017 22:01:56 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.45 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: EQdekDIWLDvmyDHLjkIFAXJ9embqHVtBy7Pjznz41S8_yEGm zwf1VTFhpBfk87vx2c4jULmjhtQmaE985hK1OYpDQuPQUYTQiV77.l2c3UWk uvilgof82ZEAA.py8ZLdBPf6muM5uLfQ.uKMHt0v8luGBbfwfkceYFdvmoRE 300PVieZYwM7jdnI..MtxLyUrq5_GvmoYqa72dXMsMSmEVyGQK0qL.vUQNvQ gJLaZ.wojAYPcptb13YQP4LJF9e__ibQVjDSR70ij3s1rFSlvGkDyFO3PwNY apVTJOBnsr19R86YFZ_ml8uNn5TsHUPNpa0CNDYsUJ9VX.BNmHumEkEqHAtO QAnBAEojIW6N.WKYqcS__zVY2DE82Mt3xuG38jq3Fr4g3yiQ8iERdYDP3yfK oOvEBnTopzO_CLSRCpfyYDQU720Uj7qGXjUvx0k12Nd43wsn1op1fd2l7zNw j_UYUh0HDYx4h2FDk2OatXria.zlZT3jAXrhS1C9Ph81t3it6eu1yiQLqrTE VZDVA9ryiMa4PdMxY7sIvRWlI8KRjz.1aCh9Iw4CXp2I7d66llAOJ7vp7shN KNYonWO3r7uUaUyNoDd_mOMtOpD1ZM6Z36lkYzlLc1jOhoXvoNJycg8M_fOl 77l2KYm9KW_mZKQi5jAUGjLyeo21Fib.HN8YIzx.CeG_wEbc9wWp5.VKDJsf I5uVhu7uKT32cdDiaHPHWUAWz30Y4Z6fxtogsGlwPBST8WRu.2P3CtdqVM_R hwAx9iW.eFEP4syoidVasTh94Zskq9_7d._d39rRnQZWmIXqfGQEEyjRpOCW F3UERSS4pK6HE5ZOplJHRjWlw.BlCoSH3_zacNCjcvUJXyOZt4Zy48DmdTLP bYbwcf9j423YJeDp.qZ7vsgFvV0Tucgm3O7oaAd4iwc1mOMPQmVYtz5KyHIB ycvMpPapYGepegPatqGZMxuAbp6skRHfRVsa.IZuQAcn3DjDSZiaKstZ5lka y6GyRIzzniMZpSt0OYAN4UA.N0ODEodtyIgUrQRXWrWor6rm46RK4pyvBgmw lHXwId0UeJTLdJBuArId79bwqMKQ2l9y8CrCy2B0kAFnMjaQWKC_8mVzIerL 8c8cvq5xqKvRoNtw4OLpfSqxCheDFZXkeZQnzhMY66phmxauM0VZCHQWqPAw XHX3ugciOzN80kL27cYZlDvg6ce0mEMKDEYaD_kzIZdzadAe0nKt7sU57xJC wMm.CC1Z7uukEoYbYVzF6KvTJaiWxx914qbLu4r.UtB257ZOfOcwWy3HKhlJ AFDYsV7oEfv6pdoWrlqTENVYLyt0V8GD3Mss79Z5AeL1FIg1P4.eCGSRj6z4 nKXv3pQXGDiyeBZKWnIZdwc10NrT0wiExbyPFl9P_0lxH5TWqrQPaz6KXjEX WQPDApo7XOU30VO6nIdmqllVBijPLp_wobq8GTNtPLWCrzH5QE.HIIdhyrlQ pcoXXxmTQa8.yJhSCukfVMLTBs7q361inyKZAg22cINrPPkGXKtDsl.qxZFs 35JVnwVk4vUo6B_m Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f45.google.com) (209.85.215.45) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 22:01:55 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f45.google.com with SMTP id v186so23701221lfa.1 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:01:55 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=R1rgg2kO0YtKQxYDW76VQm7oIgN7PsV7D/Nes4FU+3I=; b=JVm5z6kLqoVx8OqhZp3pAloQaHwenEAikJ2uDt4/N65GqX/0ryMwHydb2qt/EEmcpe W4ory7jn3JhCURzV4TBOTGYioS42hgoWN5/27WnX1dGtURgMtGQBTMRB4aCLm9lvZMuO UNq1gpycQ+NlBdJmivRz84R45nqtPspHU1NKHDGu1CjJ+MA4Qyes2PLeERKJiJXpcRsa JTGN89jwv0yNyLgJFQgYoBBIM2lQEYkgml1y1AqZGTe2gutqeHLuC3HWS7r+pRFfRRDh csOysiIaOeCv7AeslWevR5kfDvUYvTkJTf9HYSjAWMsLA+mTzTcAF1QU7qxdcXjPyXRd W2Rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKkkjxRmBs51A0aEyoqJHrk9W9AK/UNPjU5qfIrPSrVVVgLVPpN5gX7TVH/9ez6iNVWEoIU4X7AWruU3A== X-Received: by 10.25.22.104 with SMTP id m101mr5379543lfi.17.1484258513809; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 14:01:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2017111181455.058260@D9B5MN3J> References: <2017111181455.058260@D9B5MN3J> Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:01:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114015e2787bc00545ecdd2b Subject: Re: [linguo] Vorti problemoza X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114015e2787bc00545ecdd2b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Robert, Danko pro la respondo. Regretinde, me ne havas originalo di l= a Lexiko di Nova Vorti. La vorto "aerpinselo" mankas en la transskriburo da= Tiberio Madonna. *deturn/ar e *deven/ar certe ne povas existar kom aparta= radiki, nam li konfliktus direte kun de-turnar e de-venar. Esas do nula kl= arigo necesa. Pri astrofiziko, lu esas la fako astrala di fiziko. Me do vi= das nula problemo kun astro-fiziko. Lu ja esas en Dyer. Pesch ultempe konte= nas stranjaji... Yen informo en la Angla pri la skalo centigrada: https://= www.britannica.com/technology/Celsius-temperature-scale On chanjis la nomo= di la skalo en 1948, por honorizar Celsius. Pro to, la dicionarii da Dyer= (1922-1924) certe kontenas "centigrad-o, -a" vice "Celsius-grado"... Pri = la Franca vorto "centigrade", la justa defino esas la duesma da Larousse e = la triesma da Reverso. "centigrado" esas obsoleta vorto en la naturala lin= gui, tale quale "aeroplano", "hola", e.c. Centigrado esas un ek la cent gr= adi inter la temperaturo di kongelo e ta di bolio. Yen exemplo de la Tr=C3= =A9sor de la Langue Fran=C3=A7aise ( http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/centigr= ade): "... malgre la naraci da la voyajeri, la temperaturo dil inferno ne = ecesas 60 gradi centigrada." Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Wed,= Jan 11, 2017 at 1:14 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > Danko pri v= ua komenti. Me ne havas tempo por diskutar omno detaloze. Vu e > me darfas = havar opinioni, ma mea listo esas por indikar ke la lexiki > bezonas admini= me multa klarigi ed emendi, e mem unesme decidi da ULI. Esas > probable mul= ta altra vorti problemoza (mem komencante per litero a-d). > > "aerpinselo"= esas en Roze ye la fino di pagino 5, semble ne kom vorto > kompozita (aer-= pinsel-o?). Ka vorto esas kompozita ek plura radiki ne esas > inter la plu = grava problemi, ma mencioninda. Simile pri astro(-)fiziko, > de(-)turnar e = de(-)venar. > > Pri "centigrado" vu dicas "centigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0= ) en la centigrada > sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da Celsius." Centimo di quo? = On lektas ofte ke la > temperaturo dil aero esas 10 gradi C. Me ne memoras = irgafoye lektar ke la > temperaturo esas 10 centigradi. (Kompreneble, por t= re preciza mezuri por > cienco on povas dividar la grado a centimi o mem mi= limi.) > > Pluse me kredas ke Pesch eroras, dicante ke centigrado esas "Div= idita a > 100 gradi", ma ke centigramo esas "Parto centima di gramo" e cent= ilitro > esas "Parto centima di litro". Parenteze, esas stranja ke en lingu= o qua > multe uzas afixi, on ne kreas vorti quala centimetro e centilitro (= same > integra segun Dyer) explicite per uzo di prefixo "centi-"! La sistem= o > metrala ipsa uzas multa prefixi. Pro quo adoptar singla vorto unope (ta= le > ke multa vorti metrala esas ankore ne oficala)? > > Fakte la skalo da = Celsius ne esas ta qua esas uzata nun. Ilua skalo havis > cent gradi inter = du punti ma segun ol aquo bolias ye 0 e konjelas ye 100. > La skalo uzata n= un inversigis ta da Celsius. Probable on ofte nomas la nuna > skalo "Celsiu= s" ne nur por memorar lu ma anke pro problemo pri la senco di > "(*)centigr= ada/o". > > Segun la sistemo metrala, la Franca vorto "centigrade" esas cen= timo di > grado di angulo, quale centimetro esas centimo di metro, e "grado= " (vorto > qua havas tro multa senci en Ido) esas centimo di orto. > > Kord= iale, > Robert C. > > Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade": > > Centi=C3=A8me p= artie du grade, unit=C3=A9 d'angle. > =C3=89chelle de temp=C3=A9rature =C3= =A0 100 degr=C3=A9s, aujourd'hui appel=C3=A9e =C3=A9chelle Celsius. > - htt= p://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/centigrade/14111 > > centigrade = > adj inv > 1 divis=C3=A9 en cent degr=C3=A9s (sur une =C3=A9chelle de temp= =C3=A9rature) > nm > 2 centi=C3=A8me de grade, en tant qu'unit=C3=A9 angula= ire (symbole : cg) > 3 qualifiait autrefois une =C3=A9chelle de temp=C3=A9r= atures sur cent degr=C3=A9s > - http://dictionnaire.reverso.net/francais-de= finition/centigrade > > ---------- > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail= .com [linguolisto] - Tue, 10 Jan 2017 > 22:14:59 -0500: > aerpinselo: me ne= komprenas la problemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo" che Roze? > aktina: forsan= F actinique E actinic, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena > defino: "Dicesas pr= i radiaco qua facas ago kemiala ye diversa substanci." > alegreto: Me ne sa= vas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr. > htm) havas "aleg= r-eto". Ka to importas? > alkado: "alkado" nultempe adoptesis: http://inter= languages.net/aster.html > alkaraneo: Wikivortaro sugestas "alkaraveo". Me = ne savas de ube to venas. > aktina: Me ne vidas lu... > amebocita: certe "a= mebocito". Tala vorto ne falas de la cielo. > analitika: segun Dyer, "anali= tiko" e "analitikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca ( > http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr= .htm) konkordas. > "Andora" esas en Dyer.Quo esas la problemo kun "api-pomo= "? Quale > "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kapro", lu esas sat internaciona. > > ap= lanatika: segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo > = pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. > apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya "apokromata". = Nu, to esas evidenta. > arterito: *arteriito esas neoficala segun Dyer. Me = trovis nulo pri la > oficaligo di ta vorti. *arterito esas plu internaciona= (EFIS). Nu, vartez! > Me ya trovis ulo pri la oficaligo di "arterito": > h= ttp://interlanguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stranje mencionas > "a= rterito" vice "arteriito" (tale quale "alkado"). > astrofiziko: astro-fizik= o. Lu esas che Dyer (cf. astro). Ultre to, me > trovis nulo pri la oficalig= o di *astrofiziko. > astroida: astr-oida. > atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (= regiono en Grekia) + -ismo =3D Atik-ismo =3D > atikismo (Dyer ne konservis = la mayuskulo en derivaji: angora-kapro, > anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retor= ikala. > autogamo: autogama. Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", ma lu korekti= gis la > eroro. > autokrona: autokroma, quaze certe. > bekafigo: bekafiko, = segun Dyer. > bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer (cf. barnacle). Komparez ter-pom= o, mar-hundo, > e.c. > Botna: quo esas Botnia? > boyardo: boyaro, segun Dye= r. > bromuro: nu, "bromido" esas oficala depos 2001... > > centigrado: esas= centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da > Celsius. >= centrolecito: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vidas problemo kun ta vorto... >= Tamen, me ne komprenas la "centrolecit-ala" qua trovesas en la dicionario = > da Konstantin Yegupov: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/ >= ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke lu esas neoficala. On oficaligis lu kom = > "ciliara": http://interlanguages.net/aster.html > cinetiko: Dyer havas am= ba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu definesas kom "kinetic > (energy)", do "kineti= ko" esas energio (kinetika), tale quale "potencialo" > (energio potenciala)= o "kaloro" (energio termala). Segun la Lexiko > Ido-Franca (http://idoling= uo.org.uk/idfr.htm), lu esas "mekanikala" > vorto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9sor (ht= tp://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cin%C3%A9tique) la > mekanikala senco esas adj= ektivo. Tamen, forsan Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco > ed eroroze cherpis la = defino di la substantivo de ula dicionario. > decidua: Ha! ha! ha! Pesch pr= enis la defino di la Franca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice > "caduque". Mem la defino s= ubstantivala di "caduque" esas preske celita en > la Tr=C3=A9sor: http://ww= w.cnrtl.fr/definition/caduque. > deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pesch, di= la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la > Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer". > deturnar: de-= turnar, segun Dyer. > devenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, "de-venar"! > > Kun= kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5:05 PM, Rob= ert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula= defini esas > trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso. > > aerpinselo (RH) od aer-= pinselo? > aktina (B) > alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)? > alkado (P) > alka= ldo > alkaraneo (B) > amebocita (B). amebocito? > analitika (HP). analitik-= ala? > Andoro (G). Andora > api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo.= > aplanatika (P) > apokromatra (B). apokromata? > arterito (P). arteriito?= > astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko? > astroida (P) > atik-ismo (G). atikajo?= > autogamo (B). autogama? > autokrona (B). autokroma? > bekafigo (P). beka= fiko? > bernaklo-muslo (D). > Botna (H). Botnia? > boyardo (P). boyaro? > b= romuro (H). bromido? > centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!) > centroleci= to (P) > ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH) > cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cineti= ka (DFGJH) > decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?) > deflegmar (ARHP). S= enco? > deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D). > devenar (FJHG). de-venar? > > Font= i: > A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A > B =3D Lexiko di Nova Vort= i (1988), listo B > F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon > G =3D lexiko Ido-Ger= mana da Feder & Schneeberger > H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana > J =3D plu tarda l= exiko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detaili) > P =3D dicionario da P= esch > R =3D Raporto da Roze > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > = > > --001a114015e2787bc00545ecdd2b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Robert,
Danko pro la respondo.

= Regretinde, me ne havas originalo di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. La vorto &quo= t;aerpinselo" mankas en la transskriburo da Tiberio Madonna.

*deturn/ar e *deven/ar certe ne povas existar kom aparta ra= diki, nam li konfliktus direte kun de-turnar e de-venar. Esas do nula klari= go necesa.

Pri astrofiziko, lu esas la fako astral= a di fiziko. Me do vidas nula problemo kun astro-fiziko. Lu ja esas en Dyer= . Pesch ultempe kontenas stranjaji...

Yen informo en= la Angla pri la skalo centigrada:

On chan= jis la nomo di la skalo en 1948, por honorizar Celsius.

Pro to, la dicionarii da Dyer (1922-1924) certe kontenas "centig= rad-o, -a" vice "Celsius-grado"...

=
Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade", la justa defino esas la du= esma da Larousse e la triesma da Reverso.

"ce= ntigrado" esas obsoleta vorto en la naturala lingui, tale quale "= aeroplano", "hola", e.c.

Centigrado= esas un ek la cent gradi inter la temperaturo di kongelo e ta di bolio.

Yen exemplo de la Tr=C3=A9sor de la Langue Fran=C3= =A7aise (http://www.c= nrtl.fr/definition/centigrade):

"... malg= re la naraci da la voyajeri, la temperaturo dil inferno ne ecesas 60 gradi = centigrada."

Kun kordiala saluti,=
Gilles-Philippe

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:14 PM, 'Robert C.' <= a href=3D"mailto:ido@avenue.me.uk">ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
= =C2=A0

Kara Gilles-Phi= lippe,

Danko pri vua komenti. Me ne havas tempo por diskutar omno = detaloze. Vu e me darfas havar opinioni, ma mea listo esas por indikar ke l= a lexiki bezonas adminime multa klarigi ed emendi, e mem unesme decidi da U= LI. Esas probable multa altra vorti problemoza (mem komencante per litero a= -d).

"aerpinselo" esas en Roze ye la fino di pagino 5, s= emble ne kom vorto kompozita (aer-pinsel-o?). Ka vorto esas kompozita ek pl= ura radiki ne esas inter la plu grava problemi, ma mencioninda. Simile pri = astro(-)fiziko, de(-)turnar e de(-)venar.

Pri "centigrado&quo= t; vu dicas "centigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistem= o, t.e. la sistemo da Celsius." Centimo di quo? On lektas ofte ke la t= emperaturo dil aero esas 10 gradi C. Me ne memoras irgafoye lektar ke la te= mperaturo esas 10 centigradi. (Kompreneble, por tre preciza mezuri por cien= co on povas dividar la grado a centimi o mem milimi.)

Pluse me kre= das ke Pesch eroras, dicante ke centigrado esas "Dividita a 100 gradi&= quot;, ma ke centigramo esas "Parto centima di gramo" e centilitr= o esas "Parto centima di litro". Parenteze, esas stranja ke en li= nguo qua multe uzas afixi, on ne kreas vorti quala centimetro e centilitro = (same integra segun Dyer) explicite per uzo di prefixo "centi-"! = La sistemo metrala ipsa uzas multa prefixi. Pro quo adoptar singla vorto un= ope (tale ke multa vorti metrala esas ankore ne oficala)?

Fakte la= skalo da Celsius ne esas ta qua esas uzata nun. Ilua skalo havis cent grad= i inter du punti ma segun ol aquo bolias ye 0 e konjelas ye 100. La skalo u= zata nun inversigis ta da Celsius. Probable on ofte nomas la nuna skalo &qu= ot;Celsius" ne nur por memorar lu ma anke pro problemo pri la senco di= "(*)centigrada/o".

Segun la sistemo metrala, la Franca = vorto "centigrade" esas centimo di grado di angulo, quale centime= tro esas centimo di metro, e "grado" (vorto qua havas tro multa s= enci en Ido) esas centimo di orto.

Kordiale,
Robert C.
Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade":

Centi=C3=A8me partie= du grade, unit=C3=A9 d'angle.
=C3=89chelle de temp=C3=A9rature =C3= =A0 100 degr=C3=A9s, aujourd'hui appel=C3=A9e =C3=A9chelle Celsius.
= - http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/centigrade/14111

centigrade
adj inv
1 = divis=C3=A9 en cent degr=C3=A9s (sur une =C3=A9chelle de temp=C3=A9rature) =
nm
2 centi=C3=A8me de grade, en tant qu'unit=C3=A9= angulaire (symbole : cg)
3 qualifiait autrefois une =C3=A9chelle = de temp=C3=A9ratures sur cent degr=C3=A9s
- http://di= ctionnaire.reverso.net/francais-definition/centigrade
----------

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 10 Jan= 2017 22:14:59 -0500:
aerpinselo: me ne komprenas la = problemo ??? Ube esas "aerpinselo" che Roze?
aktina: forsan F= actinique E actinic, fizikal adjektivo kun la yena defino: "Dicesas p= ri radiaco qua facas ago kemiala ye diversa substanci."
alegreto: = Me ne savas. La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) havas &qu= ot;alegr-eto". Ka to importas?
alkado: "alkado" nultempe= adoptesis: http://interlanguages.net/aster.html
alkaraneo: Wikivortar= o sugestas "alkaraveo". Me ne savas de ube to venas.
aktina: = Me ne vidas lu...
amebocita: certe "amebocito". Tala vorto ne= falas de la cielo.
analitika: segun Dyer, "analitiko" e &quo= t;analitikal". La Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) ko= nkordas.
 "Andora" esas en Dyer.Quo esas la problemo ku= n "api-pomo"? Quale "agar-agaro" ed "Angora-kapro&= quot;, lu esas sat internaciona.


aplanatika:= segun Dyer, la vorto "aplanata" esas neoficala. Me trovis nulo p= ri la oficaligo di ta vorti.
apokromatra: segun Pesch, ya "apokrom= ata". Nu, to esas evidenta.
arterito: *arteriito esas neoficala se= gun Dyer. Me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di ta vorti. *arterito esas plu i= nternaciona (EFIS). Nu, vartez! Me ya trovis ulo pri la oficaligo di "= arterito": http://interlanguages.net/aster.html. Tamen, la listo stra= nje mencionas "arterito" vice "arteriito" (tale quale &= quot;alkado").
astrofiziko: astro-fiziko. Lu esas che Dyer (cf. as= tro). Ultre to, me trovis nulo pri la oficaligo di *astrofiziko.
astroi= da: astr-oida.
atikismo: anke en Dyer. Atika (regiono en Grekia) + -ism= o =3D Atik-ismo =3D atikismo (Dyer ne konservis la mayuskulo en derivaji: a= ngora-kapro, anti-semid-a, e.c.). Movado retorikala.
autogamo: autogama= . Dyer ankore eroris kun "agam-o", ma lu korektigis la eroro.
= autokrona: autokroma, quaze certe.
bekafigo: bekafiko, segun Dyer. bernaklo-muslo: anke en Dyer (cf. barnacle). Komparez ter-pomo, mar-hundo= , e.c.
Botna: quo esas Botnia?
boyardo: boyaro, segun Dyer.
bro= muro: nu, "bromido" esas oficala depos 2001...

centigrad= o: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da Celsi= us.
centrolecito: ecepte pri oficaleso, me ne vidas problemo kun ta vor= to... Tamen, me ne komprenas la "centrolecit-ala" qua trovesas en= la dicionario da Konstantin Yegupov: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/= dyer_dictionary_web/
ciliaro: ciliara. Dyer indikas ke lu esas neof= icala. On oficaligis lu kom "ciliara": http://interlanguages.net/ast= er.html
cinetiko: Dyer havas amba (cinetiko e cinetika). Lu defines= as kom "kinetic (energy)", do "kinetiko" esas energio (= kinetika), tale quale "potencialo" (energio potenciala) o "k= aloro" (energio termala). Segun la Lexiko Ido-Franca (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr= .htm), lu esas "mekanikala" vorto, ed en la Tr=C3=A9sor = (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/cin%C3%A9tique) la mekanikala sen= co esas adjektivo. Tamen, forsan Pesch ne komprenis la nuanco ed eroroze ch= erpis la defino di la substantivo de ula dicionario.
decidua: Ha! ha! h= a! Pesch prenis la defino di la Franca "d=C3=A9cidu" vice "c= aduque". Mem la defino substantivala di "caduque" esas presk= e celita en la Tr=C3=A9sor: http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/caduque.
= deflegmar: Nu, la sama kam ta di Pesch, di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti e di la = Franca "d=C3=A9flegmer".
deturnar: de-turnar, segun Dyer.
= devenar: se ne "divenar", do yes, "de-venar"!

= Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 5= :05 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:=


Yen ula vorti problemoza, pro ke fonti diferas o pro ke n= ula defini esas trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso.

aerpinselo (RH) = od aer-pinselo?
aktina (B)
alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)?
alka= do (P) > alkaldo
alkaraneo (B)
amebocita (B). amebocito?
ana= litika (HP). analitik-ala?
Andoro (G). Andora
api-pomo (DFJH?). api= o (DFGHP) esas altra kozo.
aplanatika (P)
apokromatra (B). apokroma= ta?
arterito (P). arteriito?
astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko?
as= troida (P)
atik-ismo (G). atikajo?
autogamo (B). autogama?
auto= krona (B). autokroma?
bekafigo (P). bekafiko?
bernaklo-muslo (D). Botna (H). Botnia?
boyardo (P). boyaro?
bromuro (H). bromido? centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!)
centrolecito (P) ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH)
cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). c= inetika (DFGJH)
decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?)
deflegmar = (ARHP). Senco?
deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D).
devenar (FJHG). de-ve= nar?

Fonti:
A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A
B = =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo B
F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guign= on
G =3D lexiko Ido-Germana da Feder & Schneeberger
H =3D lexik= o Ido-Hispana
J =3D plu tarda lexiko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nu= la detaili)
P =3D dicionario da Pesch
R =3D Raporto da Roze
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=
=

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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=8MGU4JFbTu1LLoFMSOAI74IR7NklKo3bQZGe2_lvrXBXdPc0MUKBHg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a114487f0706fcc0545ee27c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe, La kazo (e historio!) di la vorto "mujar" (same kam = olta di "mu=C4=9Dar" en Esperanto) esas plu komplikita kam on supozas od im= aginas. Me skribos specala artiklo pri la temo e publikigos ol en mea lingu= ala blogo, qua regretinde torporas ja de tro longa tempo. Kordiale, Gon= =C3=A7alo 2017-01-12 15:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmai= l.com [linguolisto] : > > > Kara Gon=C3=A7alo= , > Danko pro tua respondo. Me ja lektabis tua traduko di Animal Farm. Tame= n, > ka tala uzo di 'mujar' ne esas neoficala? Kad on ne devas uzar lu kun = > steleto? > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > On Thu, Jan 12, 201= 7 at 06:09 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [linguolisto] wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kara Gilles-Philipp= e, > > Yen lo skribita da me en SIL: > > Kelka-foye me > > rezolvis endukta= r vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexikala lakuni en Ido. > > Exemple, me k= onstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti, kande me probis > > tradukar = la sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di *Animal farm* (=E2=80=9CLa > > bes= tio-farmeyo=E2=80=9D) da George Orwell: > > > > > > > > > =E2=80=9C > > > >= > > *And then, after a few preliminary tries, thewhole farm burst out into= > =E2=80=98Beasts of England=E2=80=99 in tremendous unison. The cowslowed = it, the dogs whined > it, the sheep bleated it, the horses whinnied it, the= ducks quacked it.*=E2=80=9D > > > Yen mea > > traduk-probo: =E2=80=9C > > >= > *E lore, pos poka probi preliminara, la tota farmeyo komenciskantar > = =E2=80=9CBestii di Anglia=E2=80=9D per perfekta unisono. La bovi mujis ol, = la hundiaboyis > ol, la mutoni *blekis ol, la kavali *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99a= nadi *quakis ol.*=E2=80=9D > > Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata hike, me propozas= en la lexiko anke le > sequanta: **brear* > > (asno), **honkar* (ganso), *= *mekar* (kapro) e **rorar* (leono, > > tigro e altra granda felini). > > > = 2017-01-12 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [lingu= olisto] : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kara sa= mideani, > Segun Pesch, Dyer e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di= qua la > uzo restriktesas a 'vento', 'ondi', 'kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me k= elkafoye > vidis ta vorto uzata por bovi, tale quale en Esperanto. > > Ka l= a defino esas eroro, o kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro? > > Kun kor= diala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --001a114487f0706fcc0545ee27c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gill= es-Philippe,
La kaz= o (e historio!) di la vorto "mujar" (same kam olta di "mu=C4= =9Dar" en Esperanto) esas plu komplikita kam on supozas od imaginas. M= e skribos specala artiklo pri la temo e publikigos ol en mea linguala blogo= , qua regretinde torporas ja de tro longa tempo.

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo=C2=A0



2017-01-12 15:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,<= br class=3D"m_7410241723689079470gmail_msg">
Danko pro tua respon= do. Me ja lektabis tua traduko di Animal Farm. Tamen, ka tala uzo di 'm= ujar' ne esas neoficala? Kad on ne devas uzar lu kun steleto?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 06:09 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves= gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:








<= br>


















=C2=A0









<= br>


=



Kara Gilles-Philippe,

<= font size=3D"4" class=3D"m_7410241723689079470gmail_msg">Ye= n lo skribita da me en SIL:
Kelka-foye me

rezolvis en= duktar vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexikala lakuni en Ido.

Exemp= le, me konstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti, kande me probis
tradukar la sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di Animal farm (=E2=80=9CLa

bestio-farmeyo=E2= =80=9D) da George Orwell:



=C2=A0





=E2=80=9CAnd then, after a few preliminary= tries, the

whole farm burst out into =E2=80=98Beasts of England=E2= =80=99 in tremendous unison. The cows

lowed it, the dogs whined it, = the sheep bleated it, the horses whinnied it, the

ducks quacked it.<= /i>=E2=80=9D


Yen mea
<= br>traduk-probo: =E2=80=9CE lor= e, pos poka probi preliminara, la tota farmeyo komencis

kantar =E2= =80=9CBestii di Anglia=E2=80=9D per perfekta unisono. La bovi mujis ol, la hundi

aboyis ol, la = mutoni *blekis ol, la kavali *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol.=E2= =80=9D

Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata hike, me propozas en la lexiko ank= e le sequanta: *brear
(asno), *honkar (ganso), = *mekar (kapro) e *rorar (leono,

tigro e altra= granda felini).


2017-01-12 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&g= t;:






=






















=C2=A0















=



Kara samideani,

Segun P= esch, Dyer e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di qua la uz= o restriktesas a 'vento', 'ondi', 'kanono' e 't= ondro'. Or, me kelkafoye vidis ta vorto uzata por bovi, tale quale en E= speranto.=C2=A0

Ka la defino esas eroro, o kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi = ya esas eroro?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe













=






























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--001a114487f0706fcc0545ee27c2-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4761 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 18313 invoked by uid 102); 13 Jan 2017 01:42:59 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m11.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 01:42:59 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 21715 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2017 01:42:59 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 01:42:59 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.169 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: XqRNo4oWLDuXe3A6McD8a51wUvwjNoEJ.3uEfnuNJN5YWd2s Mvm4VgLt3IsfGnxLxXcwRG535pbr38JGwRNHigEwm9gKdpTcfI_4rtnWIX83 bhNynBdEX87Ce5ys3SGziNkSYWvKxD3nmBXCBzeE2KjG6U6ZT28TZJHh3JeM VUiut7zx.UCSeWdIbjRnaujrLDgiUkZIMweHXogtp786d1d3eA2FTnRayyZz bvqO1_Abr902SmoYcqxSwh6dhz44bQWGp95mABYBOPDQz9IKPz4_NbziFdz6 TOclU8vzseyS3Cq7cqiH3lgd8Wbdc450DNdr2ERL8aGwbZgHGPzW6wBTNYe7 DaVgRkOmvJEL7JQZeKOcRM1lI5HngMm8WqslqwDPBdgYxWZvKm0qTGaUZDfU Ldqf4INFjQjg7hJXrTJTuoNosctxuvXOFzjUuu_e_FJjfVAyS0bVoWsemiEg 4jVCDcqpCLMyII22HH3uHLjfAqsEfpGhNwbyXokvn_uQbjrzmhjxtX3sd6TO 7GcF8jpZLOH.yIFri8zm94xM31gLyf5GE9d9Spepio_uzUPuYY8DZPzvdCT1 .e0UGRNkA1pS5rbwA3_n0HUSurLILMdyjg1YQXEd_2n9CEVVELUe6ZEAn28i jBQaAxDx1a62UhJub85NPDDflQVbxOFp1NsWyzkS1rS1Lro8BLaJr.5w6OF4 EKWa_u.VGwL2w6ZjZRuJcWHKmBaErdFW6jFoxbAvdJvuiT.S4ZZmlyOptg6l DNKBN9tF8TQQod7o8y3f7fzfCy5Hb7CCjxsBYZsZlnfrv3s32S9IztEuBhJl wdaepzJG6WnK9EGpkBIsWdmOYUCTtcmeFe7vcCULRTkIdz0w_ZN.wpuFLkPa sGVzWQpzHMYxcJzSSl06m01NUaelhkcMKqNgOw4Y52MFKPoupuGrr5cJVR3w 7kaoSVaOp9OxQCRfCHEqS.xDmOiA_rkWwIymzmuaMBjnlxNUZmxE0UCXWbR9 9ZOhHEW39Iwt3lU1EsU6z.Lm2ktcSz.2jIm__HgSUijcZqi8F6AAoRf33GHi 2c.vZTS_6WZi3UWmrzBvqYf4Q59CTLBrmvCG2pb2H8Zz5AN2N85WEQXhVMs4 gt.tOOidevIzrFuEwMc5WLBpAdU- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f169.google.com) (209.85.217.169) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:42:59 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 96so27369835uaq.3 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:42:59 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=4l8wzBhIW/L8J0iTRrjhAlokL8yUQMRvatPBfsrCOJA=; b=HlTTtBSbWZ7XlV/jOUYjhMMiafTzm7NCTf8JS9AmWYhr7Pzifp+1DRldTN/kUgFF6e 44uqcB1Uy5J97UK/ZrX8z9/qhq0Ul8uQPJf2CtZGg6hYc1Rev3rg6NG8YqJ3A7bYIYif 5/0l542kwhMfnjXrEvZFkuhBI/65mtS8uWqgjcGFwWiALPsSL1OEg6ZyHuy75PrDNa52 Yidfjv4bLOa4ZPND9w+lpYm7AGCybjpKheblPbg504+Lchg9tHPIxMWq+JikCmgJoJLP ALDuZ7TUgmBb+ELmNmuQPyLF9NXSHTTbYH/uFICtm+ZoaDoW9/BsmrPap3xUCfKVpzMW u9VQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKIeSoGSlPb1rgMqaa/2cy1MIowMykd3KRH9ihqd0LkR2uNvZSDySNJ+F40DyXY9OIAj/Buzd8uPLI5Cg== X-Received: by 10.176.0.181 with SMTP id 50mr9328223uaj.103.1484271778324; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:42:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:42:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:42:57 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ed25818e62d0545eff425 Subject: tuberkloso X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=YLwAcCjCX5m_NDvwxoWuq4VBbrDvWMgA_z7vDEhG_tymFU-M6Y_wig X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a113ed25818e62d0545eff425 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nia sempre agema e laborema samideano Jean Martignon recente questionis che= Facebook: =C2=ABPro quo ni havas la vorto tuberkloso ? La originala vor= to semblas a me esar "tuberculosis" ed en la fonto-linguo la radiko esas "t= uberkulos-". Nia mifrati Espisti havas la vorto : tuberkulozo (konforma al = pronunco). Ni povus havar sive ca vorto sive 'tuberkuloso' (konforma al eti= mologio) Do, pro quo existas ca vorto pri qua me havas l'impreso ke ol esas= kripla vorto ? Forsan, nia pioniri volis adoptar la vorto 'tuberkuloso', m= a pro imprimo-eroro la vorto mutilesis e ni havas 'tuberkloso'. Altralatere= , pro quo dum la ondo de reformi, qua falis sur la Ido-movado dum la fino d= il yari 1920ma, onu ne profitis l'okaziono por igar ca vorto plu konformo a= lua radiko internaciona ? Me predankas pro la respondo.=C2=BB Yen mea r= espondo (anke che Facebook): Omna ciencala nomi =E2=80=93 precipue, ma n= e nur, nomi di morbi =E2=80=93 qui nun finas per -oso e devenas de la Greka= finalo -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82 (-=C3=B4sis), en 1908 finis per -ozo, t.e= . oli sequis la pronunco AFGIR (ne H!) ed anke la ortografiala kustumo en E= speranto. Exempli: =E2=80=9Cankilozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cankiloso=E2=80= =9D), =E2=80=9Cnevrozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cnevroso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Ca= poteozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Capoteoso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Cmetempsikozo=E2= =80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cmetempsikoso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Cmetamorfozo=E2=80=9D = (nun =E2=80=9Cmetamorfoso=E2=80=9D). Lore (en 1908) existis (ed ankore e= xistas) la vorto =E2=80=9Ctuberkulo=E2=80=9D, qua havis (ed ankore havas) d= uopla senco (botanikala ed anatomiala-fiziologiala) e de qua on reguloze de= rivis (ed ankore derivas) l=E2=80=99adjektivo =E2=80=9Ctuberkuloza=E2=80=9D= (exemple, =E2=80=9Cplanto tuberkuloza=E2=80=9D). Anke homo havanta tuberku= lo o tuberkuli en sua korpo esis (ed ankore esas) homo tuberkuloza o, subst= antivale, tuberkulozo. Or, en 1908 on adoptis la vorto =E2=80=9Ctuberklo= zo=E2=80=9D, segun la modelo di la Angla vorto =E2=80=9Ctubercle=E2=80=9D (= t.e. "tuberkulo"), precize por evitar miskomprenigiva intermixo kun =E2=80= =9Ctuberkul-ozo=E2=80=9D. To esis do ago intencata, e ne eroro imprimala od= altra-speca. En 1911 on lektas en Progreso (IV, 98) yena noto nesignati= ta (do certe da Couturat ipsa): =C2=ABOn sugestas, ke esus forsan bona d= istingar ta du finali [t.e. olta de la Greka -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82, qua= produktas substantivi en la ciencala feldo, ed olta de la Latina -osus, qu= a produktas adjektivi per la Ido-sufixo -oza], o ta du klasi de vorti, por = evitar erori ed intermixi=C2=BB. En 1912 (Progreso V, 103) on lektas yen= a sugesto da B. J=C3=B6nsson: =C2=ABOportas restaurar la internaciona fo= rmo di =E2=80=9Ctuberkloso=E2=80=9D, nome =E2=80=9Ctuberkuloso=E2=80=9D, qu= a (kun -os, ne -oz) ne konfliktos kun =E2=80=9Ctuberkul-ozo=E2=80=9D=C2=BB.= Regretinde nulu reaktis en Progreso ad ica sugesto da J=C3=B6nsson, olqu= a ignoresis til nun=E2=80=A6 Dume on chanjis ad -oso la finalo -ozo di omna= ciencala vorti devenanta de la Greka finalo -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82. Tam= en me ne savas kande oficaleskis tala chanjo. Me trovas nula noto pri to en= Progreso til la finala numero di 1914 (kande la revuo interruptesis pro la= milito), ma en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront-Couturat (1915) tala vort= i ja esas restaurita ad -oso. Do me supozas te tala decido eventis per priv= ata korespondo inter la akademiani ma ne publikigesis. Regretinde on oblivi= is =E2=80=9Ctuberkloso=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 --001a113ed25818e62d0545eff425 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= Ni= a sempre agema e laborema samideano Jean Martignon recente questionis che F= acebook:

=C2=A0

= =C2=ABPro quo ni havas la vorto tuberkloso ? La originala vorto semblas a m= e esar "tuberculosis" ed en la fonto-linguo la radiko esas "= tuberkulos-". Nia mifrati Espisti havas la vorto : tuberkulozo (konfor= ma al pronunco). Ni povus havar sive ca vorto sive 'tuberkuloso' (k= onforma al etimologio) Do, pro quo existas ca vorto pri qua me havas l'= impreso ke ol esas kripla vorto ? Forsan, nia pioniri volis adoptar la vort= o 'tuberkuloso', ma pro imprimo-eroro la vorto mutilesis e ni havas= 'tuberkloso'. Altralatere, pro quo dum la ondo de reformi, qua fal= is sur la Ido-movado dum la fino dil yari 1920ma, onu ne profitis l'oka= ziono por igar ca vorto plu konformo a lua radiko internaciona ? Me predank= as pro la respondo.=C2=BB

=C2=A0

Yen mea respondo (anke che Facebook):

=C2=A0

Omna ciencala nomi =E2=80=93 precipue, ma ne nur, nom= i di morbi =E2=80=93 qui nun finas per -oso e devenas de la Greka finalo -= =CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82 (-=C3=B4sis), en 1908 finis per -ozo, t.e. oli seq= uis la pronunco AFGIR (ne H!) ed anke la ortografiala kustumo en Esperanto.= Exempli: =E2=80=9Cankilozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cankiloso=E2=80=9D), =E2= =80=9Cnevrozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cnevroso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Capoteozo= =E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Capoteoso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Cmetempsikozo=E2=80=9D = (nun =E2=80=9Cmetempsikoso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Cmetamorfozo=E2=80=9D (nun = =E2=80=9Cmetamorfoso=E2=80=9D).

=C2=A0

Lore (en 190= 8) existis (ed ankore existas) la vorto =E2=80=9Ctuberkulo=E2=80=9D, qua ha= vis (ed ankore havas) duopla senco (botanikala ed anatomiala-fiziologiala) = e de qua on reguloze derivis (ed ankore derivas) l=E2=80=99adjektivo =E2=80= =9Ctuberkuloza=E2=80=9D (exemple, =E2=80=9Cplanto tuberkuloza=E2=80=9D). An= ke homo havanta tuberkulo o tuberkuli en sua korpo esis (ed ankore esas) ho= mo tuberkuloza o, substantivale, tuberkulozo.

=C2=A0

= Or, en 1908 on adoptis la vorto =E2=80=9Ctuberklozo=E2=80=9D, segun la mode= lo di la Angla vorto =E2=80=9Ctubercle=E2=80=9D (t.e. "tuberkulo"= ), precize por evitar miskomprenigiva intermixo kun =E2=80=9Ctuberkul-ozo= =E2=80=9D. To esis do ago intencata, e ne eroro imprimala od altra-speca.

=C2=A0

En 1911 on lektas en Progreso (IV, 98) yena not= o nesignatita (do certe da Couturat ipsa):

=

=C2=A0<= /font>

<= font size=3D"4">=C2= =ABOn sugestas, ke esus forsan bona distingar ta du finali [t.e. olta de la= Greka -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82, qua produktas substantivi en la ciencala = feldo, ed olta de la Latina -osus, qua produktas adjektivi per la Ido-sufix= o -oza], o ta du klasi de vorti, por evitar erori ed intermixi=C2=BB.

= =C2=A0

En 1912 (Progreso V, 103) on lektas yena sugesto da= B. J=C3=B6nsson:

=C2=A0

=C2=ABOportas restaurar la i= nternaciona formo di =E2=80=9Ctuberkloso=E2=80=9D, nome =E2=80=9Ctuberkulos= o=E2=80=9D, qua (kun -os, ne -oz) ne konfliktos kun =E2=80=9Ctuberkul-ozo= =E2=80=9D=C2=BB.

=C2=A0

Regretinde nulu reaktis en Progreso ad ica sugesto da J=C3=B6nss= on, olqua ignoresis til nun=E2=80=A6 Dume on chanjis ad -oso la finalo -ozo= di omna ciencala vorti devenanta de la Greka finalo -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF= =82. Tamen me ne savas kande oficaleskis tala chanjo. Me trovas nula noto p= ri to en Progreso til la finala numero di 1914 (kande la revuo interruptesi= s pro la milito), ma en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront-Couturat (1915) t= ala vorti ja esas restaurita ad -oso. Do me supozas te tala decido eventis = per privata korespondo inter la akademiani ma ne publikigesis. Regretinde o= n obliviis =E2=80=9Ctuberkloso=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6
= --001a113ed25818e62d0545eff425-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4762 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 35300 invoked by uid 102); 13 Jan 2017 01:44:39 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 01:44:39 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 22412 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2017 01:44:39 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.119) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 01:44:39 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.52 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: e0c7KsYWLDuGZIjpMVHa4zABhRpMPQNMvKOMAZAi3Brw0UfY bhdh24A1ZQ6nn2vGyJEanLdq6QnF_7UEosDQfBGy_so3tyNVcVCX3E8n_IhX Yfb5JNuBELVHfdL8NM33CyPPjijoQgndnmDOkY7uWTSVmacCzB246QQzzYYF xrI.s9UvmSisaKg3LrBSsnTxd31UGOjLoUBTK43_wqjxT77hFcfm8LVf8_C1 zQJ5jG9fG09l_RYJC3gtL0P7uDcl25s8DOeAxbesSvTqZ2PEejAjd170N7lw 0NSEZAZld1RqTO.Jy_ST0rdrCzWaS9vI2Z6dcP3H1yizpLT5WF1Ec4hnovmx VyyzdP9serAbto0RKy6mvxpdkt4zo4p4BgiXtCt.Lhom6hQ0a8rhY2Kvl3kD 1cKeOIzhPLdUYmfzopLoM7mpWL_TA.7SgPyG2zK9lmhwRTQHvbGxWsXBCddo COiIpnynb5gzoRHCoZzJ1LQ8xv8U10qa1g9GXLj4dybCV1h.pzCOGnC5msz6 JJ.i2aU44q5wDcAPsD4c9zHcuAq7yw8HRwiEJ.0BN.YTMo5gObpOirynfFDz gKW3QSrAcI4FKdp04dabFXEFHhnwzpSyAQTdiFeursTtWtsAqbYYbNMsgJwX zLkTOElaHuq7xMTdjWPNq4Q40VOp0PktSs1NFPRMk_k.mY6S3QbDlIPpoSjU CSJZiNSuERVWvbVU1pkv_pC1r.akHYfb8QF1nfbTi0syam7W8Udo21W2rA1c Gs5roi1F4ravABzWVyGEA6iPuUMb9cIcdC5p6ty1LAmLYvKbuFklkF8ucr.9 zEWpql2N5ScZb_37EEdN84dd0OBImjv4PKUcTw0ITvAA64Zl5ZCBNSQBvE03 rF8rYq2_To2qP9.nAI6NK3ftHjIHPlJC2L4jkxXW5urbRpBx2GFLUS7lM1gC kWIjSaPICg.oTb815spE4MA6B3ZgRGY8_HC3kYZpTWTx2fmdj14MYplzxMfB sLs3hDK7PEt8C_IhPgWCcl3mCrNtOzyWVbADGEEgsNS1iq3x0.v90zzxvK2W 2Ib6znzlPIH_efC8ClD.ufh6xp9yDs3hI8._Cb9TDp9BXcyttk3sxNpCVNHc 1eUvv4klC8LJSIqq1iH6pvvA.NgByjepmW4P274M5adHM54bw7a27f9Z3fIS .Yd8_2n.VakfcAGKQ6LyQrVhm8Cpts1eYWgBIHz8JiaFqcY5KSqPPZ68A_aI 9BP24VFTsW8_onZpEe3DnuL3pqI4uMzFXN148joocZaYHos2je8FvJbXr2.o jkPDsi2eIi558.kuVs9VJ1E9Giv2kcUEfv4nSIoqTgtLYElB4XErnOue6jkk aZMrZvQmCYuh_ntl24G5YCjZCoTUtFGqwxlgH5RRe0r_1BF4GYmKilSKmX5T SReW2J8PFDR9gRlOMyzAI2Ob1WPz4Q1rf4C2QnDjmjvR7HL1kJIhUBOgQJVN U.8D6V8I3zyrVy649b7yBqIAh3HYo2U- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f52.google.com) (209.85.215.52) by mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 01:44:38 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f52.google.com with SMTP id k86so26351085lfi.0 for ; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:44:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+TqVzjZVS7HcCXMmGOjlHFVlkWozzSTeWcoxeO6RIZc=; b=HOxcUVXyk6x9Ft2vHGrzd2SePKmbnh2QzoxOYxiKtN5YaZcLDx7TrX+c5XJX7S7oEs 35CAomBFqLPK34W7RtnKerYUze4IgN/iTDB0DLhX/xQMw0t5ncMzMQT8NbR2DCTnvhyn 6KvTZxYG8BvWJfnPumcRaPlorv9t8Osn/lPFkX/fciPLZAYnT/tKZRpYvGFYhgzeAtFK OVKnbbT4w0uRq/lEZ9IwCgiy/1QauFR9Tw23DWGOmBWTg+IqeNnUIXCaQBw0HIYgjTZl 7P2kHhdXagxU++m7MzGx4p9YN1IFq3TTE6+mpvSj2JuML0jDjNfSHeVW2egCoAqAuD1j UkMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ3I6FbxFmI4/R7mR88JLFq7YoTcRt1xpugHgcJem8Bli97siWwpad3xQ9pCyXacF4J0FN+m6A9YATR/w== X-Received: by 10.46.71.140 with SMTP id u134mr5973277lja.16.1484271876726; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:44:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.117.197 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:44:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 20:44:36 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11411c76f666f10545eff932 Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11411c76f666f10545eff932 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, Me vartez tua artiklo. Me esperas ke tua argumenti ne fo= ndesos sur la olda defino di la (eroroza) dicionario International-English = (p. 130): *muj-ar,* to bellow, roar, groan (*animals*, *sea*, *waves*). [F= IS] Nam la dicionario English-International kontredicas lu (204): to *roa= r* (*wind*, *sea*), mujar La vorto "bramar" ne existis, en ta epoko, e "mu= jar" semblas inkluzir lua senco, adminime segun International-English. Tame= n, la English-International dicas ulo altra... Videz sube. *1908, Internat= ional-English* mujar =3D *bestyi, maro, ondi (cf. *mujar*) tondrar =3D "to = thunder" (cf. *tondrar*) kriar =3D "to cry" (cf. *kriar*) *1908, English-I= nternational* mujar =3D maro, ondi (cf. *roar*) tondrar =3D "to thunder" (c= f. *thunder*) kriar =3D "to cry" (cf. *kriar*) "to bleat" =3D kriar (cf. *b= leat*) Yen plusa fonti, por demonstrar la evoluado: *1919, Dyer Ido-Engli= sh* mujar =3D venti, ondi, tondro, kanono (cf. *mujar*) tondrar =3D "to thu= nder" (cf. *thunder*) kriar =3D "to cry out" (cf. *kriar*) bramar =3D omna= animali; *ecepte la hundo, la foxo, la kato, la hanulo, la korniko, la ran= o, la hanino* *1919, Dyer English-Ido* mujar =3D venti, maro (cf. *roar*) = tondrar =3D tondro, kanono (cf. *roar*) kriar =3D "to cry (shout)" (cf. *cr= y*) bramar =3D animali (cf. *roar*) "to bleat" =3D bramar (fr. *bleat*) "to= low" (bovi) =3D muj(et)ar (cf. *low*) *1924, Dyer Ido-English* mujar =3D = venti, ondi, tondro, kanono (cf. *mujar*) tondrar =3D "to thunder" (cf. *to= ndrar*) kriar =3D bestii e homi (cf. *kriar*) bramar =3D omna animali; *ece= pte la hundo, la foxo, la kato, la korniko, la rano, la hanino* (on mem def= inas "bramo" kom "bellowing (of a bull); lowing (of cows)"). *???, Lexiko = Ido-Franca* (http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) mujar =3D bovi, vento, ondi = (cf. *mujar*) tondrar =3D "tonner" (cf. *tondrar*) kriar =3D "crier" (cf. *= kriar*) bramar =3D animali (generale), la elefanto, la rinocero, la mutono,= la asno, la cervo, la kavalo, la bovi, la kapreolo, la leono La uzo di "k= riar" por "to bleat" da la dicionario de 1908 e lua manko di la vorto "bram= ar" klare demonstras ke tala dicionarii esas nun obsoleta ed evitenda. Do n= i ne uzez li por trovar la justa defino ed uzo di "mujar". Tamen, la (tre)= eroroza dicionario English-Ido da Dyer (cf. *chase*, *chisel*, *caruncle*,= etc.) certe esos interesiva fonto por tu (cf. *low*); anke la Lexiko Ido-F= ranca, qua tamen ne havas bona reputeso pri strikteso (cf. *aktiva*, *pasiv= a*). Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-12 18:34 GMT-05:00 Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.= com>: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > La kazo (e historio!) di la vorto "m= ujar" (same kam olta di "mu=C4=9Dar" en > Esperanto) esas plu komplikita ka= m on supozas od imaginas. Me skribos > specala artiklo pri la temo e publik= igos ol en mea linguala blogo, qua > regretinde torporas ja de tro longa te= mpo. > > Kordiale, > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > > 2017-01-12 15:03 GMT+00:00 Gill= es-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, >> Danko pro tua respondo. Me ja lek= tabis tua traduko di Animal Farm. Tamen, >> ka tala uzo di 'mujar' ne esas = neoficala? Kad on ne devas uzar lu kun >> steleto? >> >> Kun kordiala salut= i, >> Gilles-Philippe >> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 06:09 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves g= neves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] wrote: >> = >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> Yen lo skribita da me en SIL: >> >> Kelka-fo= ye me >> >> rezolvis enduktar vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexikala laku= ni en Ido. >> >> Exemple, me konstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti,= kande me probis >> >> tradukar la sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di *A= nimal farm* (=E2=80=9CLa >> >> bestio-farmeyo=E2=80=9D) da George Orwell: >= > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =E2=80=9C >> >> >> >> >> >> *And then, after a fe= w preliminary tries, thewhole farm burst out into >> =E2=80=98Beasts of Eng= land=E2=80=99 in tremendous unison. The cowslowed it, the dogs whined >> it= , the sheep bleated it, the horses whinnied it, theducks quacked it.*=E2=80= =9D >> >> >> Yen mea >> >> traduk-probo: =E2=80=9C >> >> >> >> *E lore, pos= poka probi preliminara, la tota farmeyo komenciskantar >> =E2=80=9CBestii = di Anglia=E2=80=9D per perfekta unisono. La bovi mujis ol, la hundiaboyis >= > ol, la mutoni *blekis ol, la kavali *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol= .*=E2=80=9D >> >> Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata hike, me propozas en la lexiko= anke le >> sequanta: **brear* >> >> (asno), **honkar* (ganso), **mekar* (k= apro) e **rorar* (leono, >> >> tigro e altra granda felini). >> >> >> 2017-= 01-12 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolis= to] : >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >= > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >= > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Kara samideani, >> Segun Pesch, Dy= er e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di qua la >> uzo restriktesa= s a 'vento', 'ondi', 'kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me kelkafoye >> vidis ta vort= o uzata por bovi, tale quale en Esperanto. >> >> Ka la defino esas eroro, o= kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro? >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gil= les-Philippe >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>= >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>= >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>= >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > --001a11411c76f666f10545eff932 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Me vartez tua artiklo. Me esperas k= e tua argumenti ne fondesos sur la olda defino di la (eroroza) dicionario I= nternational-English (p. 130):

muj-ar,=C2= =A0to bellow, roar, groan (animals, sea, waves). [FIS]=

Nam la dicionario English-International kontredic= as lu (204):

to roar=C2=A0(wind, = sea), mujar

La vorto "bramar" ne exi= stis, en ta epoko, e "mujar" semblas inkluzir lua senco, adminime= segun International-English. Tamen, la English-International dicas ulo alt= ra... Videz sube.

1908, International-English
mujar =3D *bestyi, maro, ondi (cf. mujar)
ton= drar =3D "to thunder" (cf.=C2=A0tondrar)
kriar = =3D "to cry" (cf. kriar)

1908,= English-International
mujar =3D maro, ondi (cf. roar)=
tondrar =3D "to thunder" (cf. thunder)
kriar =3D "to cry" (cf. kriar)
"to bleat&= quot; =3D kriar (cf. bleat)

Yen plusa fonti= , por demonstrar la evoluado:

1919, Dyer Ido-En= glish
mujar =3D venti, ondi, tondro, kanono (cf. mujar= )
tondrar =3D "to thunder" (cf. thunder)
kriar =3D "to cry out" (cf. kriar)
bramar =3D= =C2=A0omna animali;=C2=A0ecepte la hundo, la foxo, la kato, la hanulo, = la korniko, la rano, la hanino

1919,= Dyer English-Ido
mujar =3D venti, maro (cf. roar)
tondrar =3D tondro, kanono (cf. roar)
kriar =3D &qu= ot;to cry (shout)" (cf. cry)
bramar =3D animali (cf. = roar)
"to bleat" =3D bramar (fr. bleat)"to low" (bovi) =3D muj(et)ar (cf. low)

1924, Dyer Ido-English
mujar =3D venti, ondi, ton= dro, kanono (cf. mujar)
tondrar =3D "to thunder"= (cf. tondrar)
kriar =3D bestii e homi (cf. kriar)<= /div>
bramar =3D omna animali;=C2=A0ecepte la hundo, la foxo, la kat= o, la korniko, la rano, la hanino=C2=A0(on mem definas "bramo"= ; kom "bellowing (of a bull); lowing (of cows)").

<= /div>
???, Lexiko Ido-Franca=C2=A0(http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm)
mujar =3D b= ovi, vento, ondi (cf. mujar)
tondrar =3D "tonner"= ; (cf. tondrar)
kriar =3D "crier" (cf. kriar<= /b>)
bramar =3D animali (generale), la elefanto, la rinocero, la = mutono, la asno, la cervo, la kavalo, la bovi, la kapreolo, la leono
<= div>
La uzo di "kriar" por "to bleat" da = la dicionario de 1908 e lua manko di la vorto "bramar" klare demo= nstras ke tala dicionarii esas nun obsoleta ed evitenda. Do ni ne uzez li p= or trovar la justa defino ed uzo di "mujar".

=
Tamen, la (tre) eroroza dicionario English-Ido da Dyer (cf. chase, chisel, caruncle, etc.) certe esos interesiva fonto por t= u (cf. low); anke la Lexiko Ido-Franca, qua tamen ne havas bona repu= teso pri strikteso (cf. aktiva, pasiva).

=
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


2017-01-12 18= :34 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@= yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

=

Kara = Gilles-Philippe,

La= kazo (e historio!) di la vorto "mujar" (same kam olta di "m= u=C4=9Dar" en Esperanto) esas plu komplikita kam on supozas od imagina= s. Me skribos specala artiklo pri la temo e publikigos ol en mea linguala b= logo, qua regretinde torporas ja de tro longa tempo.

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo=C2=A0



2017-0= 1-12 15:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro t= ua respondo. Me ja lektabis tua traduko di Animal Farm. Tamen, ka tala uzo = di 'mujar' ne esas neoficala? Kad on ne devas uzar lu kun steleto?<= /div>

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
On Thu, Jan 12, = 2017 at 06:09 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:












=

















=C2=A0












=






Kara = Gilles-Philippe,

<= font size=3D"4" class=3D"gmail-m_-1920876694986411207m_8073782665740602399m= _7410241723689079470gmail_msg">Yen lo skribita da me en SIL:

= Kelka-foye me

rezolvis enduktar vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexi= kala lakuni en Ido.

Exemple, me konstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara br= amo-vorti, kande me probis

tradukar la sequanta texto del unesma cha= pitro di Animal farm (=E2=80=9CLa

bestio-farme= yo=E2=80=9D) da George Orwell:



=C2=A0





=E2=80=9CAnd then, after = a few preliminary tries, the

whole farm burst out into =E2=80=98Beas= ts of England=E2=80=99 in tremendous unison. The cows

lowed it, the = dogs whined it, the sheep bleated it, the horses whinnied it, the

du= cks quacked it.=E2=80=9D

Yen mea

traduk-pro= bo: =E2=80=9CE lore, pos poka probi preliminara, la tota = farmeyo komencis

kantar =E2=80=9CBestii di Anglia=E2=80=9D per perfe= kta unisono. La bovi mujis ol, la hundi

aboyis= ol, la mutoni *blekis ol, la kavali *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol.= =E2=80=9D

Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata hike, me propozas en la lex= iko anke le sequanta: *brear

(asno), *honkar (ganso), *mekar (kapro) e *rorar (leono,

tigro e altra granda felini).=


2017-01-12 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [l= inguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&g= t;:





















=








=C2=A0










=







<= p class=3D"gmail-m_-1920876694986411207m_8073782665740602399m_7410241723689= 079470gmail_msg">Kara samideani,

Segun Pesch, Dyer e= la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di qua la uzo restriktes= as a 'vento', 'ondi', 'kanono' e 'tondro'. = Or, me kelkafoye vidis ta vorto uzata por bovi, tale quale en Esperanto.=C2= =A0

K= a la defino esas eroro, o kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro?<= /div>

Kun k= ordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe












=





























<= br>

<= br> --001a11411c76f666f10545eff932-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4763 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 1895 invoked by uid 102); 13 Jan 2017 01:49:18 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 01:49:18 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 24925 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2017 01:49:18 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 01:49:18 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: rpW4wSQWLDt1iPbc99LgrrS8AZPlpX37U6xtoAhcchALGYu. 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Certe, uladie "tuber= kloso" divenos *tuberkuloso... Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-= 01-12 20:42 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Nia sempre agema e laborema samideano= Jean Martignon recente questionis > che Facebook: > > > > =C2=ABPro quo ni= havas la vorto tuberkloso ? La originala vorto semblas a me > esar "tuberc= ulosis" ed en la fonto-linguo la radiko esas "tuberkulos-". Nia > mifrati E= spisti havas la vorto : tuberkulozo (konforma al pronunco). Ni > povus hava= r sive ca vorto sive 'tuberkuloso' (konforma al etimologio) Do, > pro quo e= xistas ca vorto pri qua me havas l'impreso ke ol esas kripla vorto > ? Fors= an, nia pioniri volis adoptar la vorto 'tuberkuloso', ma pro > imprimo-eror= o la vorto mutilesis e ni havas 'tuberkloso'. Altralatere, pro > quo dum la= ondo de reformi, qua falis sur la Ido-movado dum la fino dil > yari 1920ma= , onu ne profitis l'okaziono por igar ca vorto plu konformo a > lua radiko = internaciona ? Me predankas pro la respondo.=C2=BB > > > > Yen mea respondo= (anke che Facebook): > > > > Omna ciencala nomi =E2=80=93 precipue, ma ne = nur, nomi di morbi =E2=80=93 qui nun finas > per -oso e devenas de la Greka= finalo -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82 (-=C3=B4sis), en 1908 finis per > -ozo, t= .e. oli sequis la pronunco AFGIR (ne H!) ed anke la ortografiala > kustumo = en Esperanto. Exempli: =E2=80=9Cankilozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cankiloso=E2= =80=9D), =E2=80=9Cnevrozo=E2=80=9D (nun > =E2=80=9Cnevroso=E2=80=9D), =E2= =80=9Capoteozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Capoteoso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Cmetempsi= kozo=E2=80=9D (nun > =E2=80=9Cmetempsikoso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Cmetamorfozo= =E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cmetamorfoso=E2=80=9D). > > > > Lore (en 1908) exist= is (ed ankore existas) la vorto =E2=80=9Ctuberkulo=E2=80=9D, qua havis > (e= d ankore havas) duopla senco (botanikala ed anatomiala-fiziologiala) e de >= qua on reguloze derivis (ed ankore derivas) l=E2=80=99adjektivo =E2=80=9Ct= uberkuloza=E2=80=9D > (exemple, =E2=80=9Cplanto tuberkuloza=E2=80=9D). Anke= homo havanta tuberkulo o tuberkuli en > sua korpo esis (ed ankore esas) ho= mo tuberkuloza o, substantivale, > tuberkulozo. > > > > Or, en 1908 on adop= tis la vorto =E2=80=9Ctuberklozo=E2=80=9D, segun la modelo di la Angla > vo= rto =E2=80=9Ctubercle=E2=80=9D (t.e. "tuberkulo"), precize por evitar misko= mprenigiva > intermixo kun =E2=80=9Ctuberkul-ozo=E2=80=9D. To esis do ago i= ntencata, e ne eroro > imprimala od altra-speca. > > > > En 1911 on lektas = en Progreso (IV, 98) yena noto nesignatita (do certe da > Couturat ipsa): >= > > > =C2=ABOn sugestas, ke esus forsan bona distingar ta du finali [t.e. = olta de la > Greka -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82, qua produktas substantivi en = la ciencala feldo, ed olta de la > Latina -osus, qua produktas adjektivi pe= r la Ido-sufixo -oza], o ta du > klasi de vorti, por evitar erori ed interm= ixi=C2=BB. > > > > En 1912 (Progreso V, 103) on lektas yena sugesto da B. J= =C3=B6nsson: > > > > =C2=ABOportas restaurar la internaciona formo di =E2= =80=9Ctuberkloso=E2=80=9D, nome > =E2=80=9Ctuberkuloso=E2=80=9D, qua (kun -= os, ne -oz) ne konfliktos kun =E2=80=9Ctuberkul-ozo=E2=80=9D=C2=BB. > > > R= egretinde nulu reaktis en Progreso ad ica sugesto da J=C3=B6nsson, olqua > = ignoresis til nun=E2=80=A6 Dume on chanjis ad -oso la finalo -ozo di omna c= iencala > vorti devenanta de la Greka finalo -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82. Tam= en me ne savas kande > oficaleskis tala chanjo. Me trovas nula noto pri to = en Progreso til la > finala numero di 1914 (kande la revuo interruptesis pr= o la milito), ma en > la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront-Couturat (1915) tal= a vorti ja esas > restaurita ad -oso. Do me supozas te tala decido eventis = per privata > korespondo inter la akademiani ma ne publikigesis. Regretinde= on obliviis > =E2=80=9Ctuberkloso=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 > > > --f403045ec30e98740e0545f00a68 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --94eb2c1497b4bec2ef0545f793ae-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4767 Return-Path: X-Sender: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 20211 invoked by uid 102); 13 Jan 2017 11:46:23 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 11:46:23 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 4026 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2017 11:46:23 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 11:46:23 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of yahoogroups.com designates 72.30.234.155 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: JgOCdfcWLDv8COuTKY6jiyzJwQ6hFOlVaxk0N8xvceRxKZ7h 9NHDy92fMUOJZDv7y5g7eGEkRMJsB_ZLybL7KgkzCX9M0VfwQBOzO.EnoE5F Sa7v_ihGMvNz8UsM4MdBSk71fAx.xgKPCRLNQFUxby_97eP9QiP8NEXMqny5 roJ4wCedCQCcTm4oc8e6IRTndglhf0W1egg6xrJ3mKLg8DO4WRTH0dvluuDI 3MWovLaNLlZH441eogcy0M7ibiKjeSQtH81Rgeo3tHj4MZVgZhhkjfM4jzmp FsfxYEnQo9us5X2oBijrIP_pG_kpToqYfsfl.jDz1ybd1iqEqrxQRwO9Jymh 4sCfmh3kVDudjCLoJaDPMcHf99UrrzV6WfB7Sk9qhxYsTVXUOW4JmYBlTYUq idcbKEfAoCqbGVaZi.hPMbM4NlUFIbhFDiaNnNGsnX3ZXUqN_kyHkhH2bALU JvvQBT05ZRh4sVdYlRcuzBGtjN4xC3lBHxdzabrbUkRGx1IdUOb7JqYHDJb7 aIWjVPgP3j_P86low0BDuWfUN9dO3ZRYWsdHp17uBH7z5fgJrPmecP.81mbc V_raS14RmMri_o_Y2nTRyiI03J3Y1dUBWd_uvm_qMp._OE6wKA5k3fBTB4xG aHStnRxkN7NIAD_gUw9aq1aKsqbVbx_bN5t7RtUqazzQyFBskOFGy6Vs3snq 38YYep3rdqm_CpYFKJOCYOn46yZ5MRB18tiPQHLaP2ZRMWwFHlmNLOgccMWR raPdmdpwti2MFURzG17wAO8N1hY7gXyc8gB0cO4T2M2vqiKFxTUBJ2W0yT7i 61qQXoJ58i3l_iBXwfqn5SlgUhtiylTOboAuPjKNUjbI3nAofjfuytf_uVJd MnhVYF0msRf375AL3pdlsDDH_rkBbCMleyEpT7jbylWzOu4FHQ39vnydFNXP aEw5Bn4D5Dbbi6diiIUZLJX.UvQiRB3Xk_qgXh2.bHOvg1JzkYpmWNsu1OkF YXi3uDdaIjJ_6ioS2sOaX5Tn_4f00oyXh949.kv2mw9PNIdZv4MrgAZOmu3R HZ8FfrZWMbiYdQxkPOkRNNjuewSZ03ym8rInM3tst6._Fiwfwr.mqU5tN1zi .l6VDUpzsk6G7kBRW0w7iE63DliM8se7epKQyKwCITgimca4IfxIZ66aBBDf nDC5hPGvzDW0.98BcQab09yamFWaiTE7Cmci4V01Fc5imf1Z41rVDThwsrAk rFFdJD_qva3cs2ojA1.hvKPgx.pd_gZ2_lBMC.Wkl9PX9DAxBDwzrhRhq5bu 7jkXeHUdWqxXbfOD5CjZCUP5WPkToOwc2_8Csvdvo3wrabqr9xSUXwFR5Sg7 R7bdt1.dKuQY6yRLg8kr Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=yahoogroups.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=yahoogroups.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO n4.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (72.30.234.155) by mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 11:46:23 +0000 X-Received: from [72.30.235.64] by n4.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jan 2017 11:46:22 -0000 X-Received: from [10.193.75.107] by t1.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jan 2017 11:46:22 -0000 Date: 13 Jan 2017 03:46:22 -0800 X-Received: from [127.0.0.1] by gapi3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jan 2017 11:46:22 -0000 To: X-Original-Return-Path: qualevistandas@yahoo.es X-Original-From: qualevistandas@yahoo.es X-Mailer: Yahoo Groups Message Poster References: X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: groups-compose Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="9nlWnTS9ocNmxdhsK3FKVLWiM6a5jwOaA8HvrLV" Reply-To: qualevistandas@yahoo.es Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? 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MSMgQZb7x1Atqp.KjZKj Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f49.google.com) (209.85.215.49) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 12:30:23 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f49.google.com with SMTP id m78so36166104lfg.2 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 04:30:22 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=iw6shhGaUFdzuhpb3A7nT6u5ErqCffrf/P6DB5qYkxA=; b=Jaqx/6AVIGvjRNk6IDVY2S/C6zql4JjDD6Hwu9zt8U8saCm36q5i1GGDgFSLKWpsGY vmS5FvbleUStbnvaos+v8++lPdSLaD+ZPIHm3UilA1HvT5+drupi14YnW0QVrnVT4GLf mlCNXsZ/nzvOO/+xoVzKHTF5QtsahSGLM8t7bT0zgtzbBIC0Z6lMO2Kle6eyHCNRKGa7 2yCx79cPhinGOolDhomK0fee3zx/tX+NwIWJpNu70fOmEM+9/iVp8Ad7Gjjgul24LlYY mK7gi1jO7cGiw89eMJXcGd+67ALjFyE2zOQAXguARg90pF9OvfGnSzRncGUAP7M9o+Ou 7M8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXK/JEs4JPYZ4lpjQu1xlm46LWjOJaBLBkuDSShg/mrFDh27pV3aOJ/T+sfa3W0TVz3BHZ1jcL5pX8FZEw== X-Received: by 10.25.80.66 with SMTP id z2mr6345269lfj.157.1484310621666; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 04:30:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 12:30:11 +0000 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1cb94a5741a40545f8ff84 Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --94eb2c1cb94a5741a40545f8ff84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, Yen plusa eroro en mea preantea mesajo: 1908, English-I= nternational mujar =3D vento, maro (cf. roar) Me ya de longe trovis skanit= a* versiono di ta dicionarii (da Google) en la Interreto. Nu, me ja plurfoy= e mencionis li en mea blog-artikli... International-English https://archiv= e.org/details/internationalen00jespgoog English-International https://arch= ive.org/details/englishinternati00beaurich Regretinde, mankas en Int'l-Eng= lish la komenco di la prefaco da Jespersen. Me duras serchar International= -Fran=C3=A7ais e Fran=C3=A7ais-Internatiional. Kara Partaka, Bone. Kun kor= diala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 06:46 qualevistandas= @yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: mujar: {ntr}= (aludante vento, ondi) Produktar bruiso analoga a la klamo matida, nesonor= a e longa di la animali bova. =E2=80=93 FHI Tamen, lektante lo skribita da= Pesch, mea punto esas, ke "la klamo dil animali bova" esas l'origino dil a= nalogeso, do ke vento ed ondi mujas analoge al bovaro, qua kompreneble anke= mujas (ultre bramar). Ma me ja dicis, ke me ipsa ne uzos "mujar" por bovi:= "bramar" fitas bone kun li. (Partaka) --94eb2c1cb94a5741a40545f8ff84 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Yen plusa eroro en mea prean= tea mesajo:

1908, English-In= ternational
mujar =3D vento, maro (cf. roar)

Me ya de longe trovis skanita* vers= iono di ta dicionarii (da Google) en la Interreto. Nu, me ja plurfoye menci= onis li en mea blog-artikli...

International-English
https://archive.org/details/internationalen00jespgoog

English-International
https://archive.org/details/englishinterna= ti00beaurich

Regretinde,= mankas en Int'l-English la komenco di la prefaco da Jespersen.

Me duras serchar International-Fran= =C3=A7ais e Fran=C3=A7ais-International.

Kara Partaka,
Bone.

Kun kordiala saluti,
= Gilles-Philippe

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 06:46 q= ualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com> wrote:
=

mujar: {ntr} (aludante vento, ondi) Produ= ktar bruiso analoga a la klamo matida, nesonora e longa di la animali bova.= =E2=80=93 FHI=C2=A0

Tamen, lektante lo skribita da P= esch, mea punto esas, ke "la klamo dil animali bova" esas l'o= rigino dil analogeso, do ke vento ed ondi mujas analoge al bovaro, qua komp= reneble anke mujas (ultre bramar). Ma me ja dicis, ke me ipsa ne uzos "= ;mujar" por bovi: "bramar" fitas bone kun li.=C2=A0

=C2=A0(Partaka)








<= br>

















=













--94eb2c1cb94a5741a40545f8ff84-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4769 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22892 invoked by uid 102); 13 Jan 2017 14:21:49 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 14:21:49 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 23959 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2017 14:21:49 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.119) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 14:21:49 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.46 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: sNiZm30WLDsML42OhjyOQ1EI6KFLA035iePXmZtj0NHuj.4e KgTTp5CulYxFyk0DNhvzfw5KMVGH1BJ41qrxwTFgSicM09R9NlUqrEl5h3Ya yBQA_hPet_wLR.m4OkIeSkGYctC6GnssE9qaVsJf_2jx2cLNGr3sqNclf_IA JPDnMW1Eighna4RpzpDZ3RmhhDXMMaV83ejzDMeeIjn9gBCi3N53a062_5gK XCb.NG4ef3U530WbC1Pr.KhBBKiDOnAA0pSSaXX.MsjLVUfzSX4S1NWOKXPT GWTexcute6pwxtmg48wEY8jTP_eLKfFf1lsAffSnXjfel8G6YUYksxypTI4O .63wMumqlClNiqBkPahkcIprz0ZNx1GeWBXG_W.q7_G3MelzrLFS_uUH1x.c ceETkHQYlZKSBI78EcEJJirSvJfvfRnOaj15sLtPUn_wY.qsx.SSoTV127dQ Jg_xqIGoNeIAlqfyXWA9T1zvTdp3B_RVXbTylvOo8fF1ysu_YzumdLvbVo9A gOxuQxh.fUMz7VvAXKkq.3z08_gUrs6ESCzDu6YTt21ffK3AYTtg4boePzvq WYbdeUU_QgTTiI4htEkLHoVPXfrSyVi1OCULn8uc191vytHsbT3vB4W5Mtsr Yr._POCFYIUV.U58hKbOHVT5D_xdnwPXzOH9gqP5hhIzKamQbtQH1FKPmkiK zBuh73r6843O0j93s5QfJrcSka.L6mwGuFg8jVbUg_WaTzNeAMGEzJHZWGZ9 NDR_h9Dkl7NdyAGl_Ni1U2o.pKSWpEgvcpHR1NeyV6lrJnGPXwDBPb3nJFoN f6jYWDY.twUcG03xeE4LXdlCHYD6ASkY9Rqz7gYJzhnYr_r7s55mWHWPmIkT l3_Kz3hg_TLdTFy4tBy3OMgRYp6ver9gguCfpWUsJ.4s1oROCeSAmwA.RpQr 1VxaowyzY02W4_dDRRp9TJ0hZ.Z0r4._j.YLAM29pGoha2v2ynW_hfxIFw_S ZDk5mc8kcuXPembMsHpvvx6jSDlhpxoELniXwIFbUllupypPXs2bDnCUed1G GbejbV0KeVXSJhEwkiLnlYERIDEMpji.VoNJut.SO5BMip8tdKkauogLtwgk UqVnuF_fz7oqOsPyvmZSnSeYluRx88zUMMZl8M_YcJE0P.xKrMmyhgZez93y FEUokuSgKNZqdg9yaPNhnGxdNRJA.nMmU_eiTuHG0GmpVX9C3SdWSu5Vmorp F0nT2RqYl7uhsAMAGYyJyWvjVifimigb0Z4yiej7i8pFE1OaHw2f.8tl6igb Mt.fFadAESgJFzwTKbRU3U1YisbbjJSGAeaLsHw8BmSwrZzkcTp5vqx5.DkL DH4EVkx7EKU9IuLBe_FsRYjbW4aaatkBHJ2slMgELwwUrNDtjaEhxAaPTR.a 1FYiuCGBbNPN89uFnLpzHyM9O6yltq5A_TNsud50mBOAu4jgJB4Nvg2nkrMD D2gCeyRD7vdY0b5J14k.P33ZDiEiRwhB0L5WuO9XjSiaYIi2rt2HETDrgTxa Dz25dO.XbQovyC5BDIe24Ny_MZvbh_Abh8hHFNkdxpViAFR6SxVAPeMYXX9l qPoIvrDid38FuMeV5ns- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f46.google.com) (209.85.215.46) by mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:21:49 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f46.google.com with SMTP id k86so38688287lfi.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 06:21:48 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=CZ9dK5+QYy9yWa1rW/9VsuTHg0T6UM2eXV/On5il0gk=; b=KmhaaLXE4lY1e2eK2tCGZgREYQfSQmjIKZdERxxGQwkB4+NaXIch+emy8H1UYA1FAa yBApKL5Hf9X1MXyXz8aWmd32jtK/R2UCoKdV18z22bSDlq7UT+RMOtmzbDZSrg7VPrF/ u4AAqbVffM++GHw/YrwMiACNfL6oahRBqht4h9KjdQJecdgN1OOViex4/FCP3rgH2Ig6 dHAy0G2eQ3OY7n3yzc1JQxlTvgelavWtaQxdpmasLJkAfY5S994zMH7FpadHG+nzoOHL RefoPYrxnhomS/Y9Y0VCc24O55C3VmL9DRTsTH33BxOl/eEuUmh3EOjWcDT9035pSWtN wkQw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJXQuUefa1HQ+vCjF9xpLEp/gMJcaI/kky4HNZMLmkLplUUKJSuPhJIk5rE7VK50rAbS8sKO9HwiIY84A== X-Received: by 10.46.74.26 with SMTP id x26mr7064717lja.51.1484317307409; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 06:21:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 06:21:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20161231223655.474607@D9B5MN3J> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 09:21:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec30ed79b4d0545fa8d3b Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: [idolisto] Re: Dicionario dil ULI X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec30ed79b4d0545fa8d3b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tamen, ni ne obliviez ke "cadie" povas anke signifikar "en ca *dii*". Segun= Dyer (Angla-Ido): *nowadays:* ca-die, nun-tempe, prezente, en nuna tempo.= On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:25 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin wrote: > Nu, me tote konkordas. > > Gilles-Philippe > > On Wed, Jan 11= , 2017 at 11:50 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Me konjektas, ke on adoptis la sufixo "ho-" pro inf= luo de >> Occidental/Interlingue, e por ke ol funcionez kom formo paralela = ad irga >> "ca" kun refero tempal. On komencus per prikonciar l'internacion= eso dil >> vorto "hodie" (h=C3=B3die) plu bona kam "ca-die", e pose, on dic= us: "e pro quo >> ne adoptar "ho-" (quale Interlingue), e lore disponar ne = nur "ho-die", ma >> anke "hosemane, homonate, hoyare", edc? E me respondus:= pro ke "ho-" esas >> tote ne-necesa: suficas "hodi.e" (ne "ho-die"). Por i= rgo altra, ni ja havas >> "ca" (ca-semane, ca-monate, ca-yare, edc.). E yes= , ni anke havas "ca-die", >> qua semblas mem plu "ho-die" kam "hodi.e", nam= olca uzesas anke por la >> senco "nun-tempe, nun-epoke", edc. >> >> (Part= aka) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> --f403045ec30ed79b4d0545fa8d3b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tamen, ni ne obliviez ke "cadie" povas anke sign= ifikar "en ca dii". Segun Dyer (Angla-Ido):

=
nowadays: ca-die, nun-tempe, prezente, en nuna tempo.
=

On Wed, Jan= 11, 2017 at 10:25 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>= wrote:
Nu, me tote konkordas= .

Gilles-Philippe=

On= Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:50 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.c= om> wrote:











=



=C2=A0








Me konjektas, ke on adoptis la sufixo "ho-" pro influo de Occide= ntal/Interlingue, e por ke ol funcionez kom formo paralela ad irga "ca= " kun refero tempal. On komencus per prikonciar l'internacioneso d= il vorto "hodie" (h=C3=B3die) plu bona kam "ca-die", e = pose, on dicus: "e pro quo ne adoptar "ho-" (quale Interling= ue), e lore disponar ne nur "ho-die", ma anke "hosemane, hom= onate, hoyare", edc? E me respondus: pro ke "ho-" esas tote = ne-necesa: suficas "hodi.e" (ne "ho-die"). Por irgo alt= ra, ni ja havas "ca" (ca-semane, ca-monate, ca-yare, edc.). E yes= , ni anke havas "ca-die", qua semblas mem plu "ho-die" = kam "hodi.e", nam olca uzesas anke por la senco "nun-tempe, = nun-epoke", edc.=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka) =C2=A0=C2=A0
<= p>





















<= /div>

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Kara Gilles-Philippe, Vu dicas: "*deturn/ar e *deven/ar certe ne povas existar kom aparta radiki, nam li konfliktus direte kun de-turnar e de-venar. Esas do nula klarigo necesa." Tamen, on povus dicar simile pri multa altra vorti. Exemple: depozar ne esas de-pozar; diskursiva ne esas diskurs-iva; generalo ne esas gener-alo; jineto ne esas jin-eto; komisuro ne esas komis-uro. Kande existas tala vorto-pari, importas indikar klare en lexiki ke vorto nederivita ya existas nedepenante. Altrakaze, importas ne dividar vorto nedividita. La skalo por temperaturo da Celsius esas cent-grada o centigrada ma ne centi-grada. Pro quo vu dicas ke "centigrado" esas obsoleta vorto en la naturala lingui, tale quale "aeroplano", "hola", e.c.? Dictionnaire Hachette (1997) dicas ke un di du senci di "centigrade" esas (geom.) centima parto di grado (simbolo: cgr). Ye "grade" ol donas quar senci qui inkluzas (geom.) "unité d'arc et d'angle (symbole: gr.). La conférence est divisée en 400 grades. 1 grade = 0,9 degré." Pro quo vu opinionas ke omna tri dicionarii citita eroras? Google indikas cirkume 17.500.000 rezulti por "aeroplane" - vorto esas ofte uzata en Britania. (Por la Usana vorto equivalanta, "airplane", esas cirkume 146.000.000 rezulti.) Kordiale, Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:01:53 -0500: Kara Robert, Danko pro la respondo. Regretinde, me ne havas originalo di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. La vorto "aerpinselo" mankas en la transskriburo da Tiberio Madonna. *deturn/ar e *deven/ar certe ne povas existar kom aparta radiki, nam li konfliktus direte kun de-turnar e de-venar. Esas do nula klarigo necesa. Pri astrofiziko, lu esas la fako astrala di fiziko. Me do vidas nula problemo kun astro-fiziko. Lu ja esas en Dyer. Pesch ultempe kontenas stranjaji... Yen informo en la Angla pri la skalo centigrada: https://www.britannica.com/technology/Celsius-temperature-scale On chanjis la nomo di la skalo en 1948, por honorizar Celsius. Pro to, la dicionarii da Dyer (1922-1924) certe kontenas "centigrad-o, -a" vice "Celsius-grado"... Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade", la justa defino esas la duesma da Larousse e la triesma da Reverso. "centigrado" esas obsoleta vorto en la naturala lingui, tale quale "aeroplano", "hola", e.c. Centigrado esas un ek la cent gradi inter la temperaturo di kongelo e ta di bolio. Yen exemplo de la Trésor de la Langue Française (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/centigrade): "... malgre la naraci da la voyajeri, la temperaturo dil inferno ne ecesas 60 gradi centigrada." Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:14 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: Kara Gilles-Philippe, Danko pri vua komenti. Me ne havas tempo por diskutar omno detaloze. Vu e me darfas havar opinioni, ma mea listo esas por indikar ke la lexiki bezonas adminime multa klarigi ed emendi, e mem unesme decidi da ULI. Esas probable multa altra vorti problemoza (mem komencante per litero a-d). "aerpinselo" esas en Roze ye la fino di pagino 5, semble ne kom vorto kompozita (aer-pinsel-o?). Ka vorto esas kompozita ek plura radiki ne esas inter la plu grava problemi, ma mencioninda. Simile pri astro(-)fiziko, de(-)turnar e de(-)venar. Pri "centigrado" vu dicas "centigrado: esas centimo (°) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da Celsius." Centimo di quo? On lektas ofte ke la temperaturo dil aero esas 10 gradi C. Me ne memoras irgafoye lektar ke la temperaturo esas 10 centigradi. (Kompreneble, por tre preciza mezuri por cienco on povas dividar la grado a centimi o mem milimi.) Pluse me kredas ke Pesch eroras, dicante ke centigrado esas "Dividita a 100 gradi", ma ke centigramo esas "Parto centima di gramo" e centilitro esas "Parto centima di litro". Parenteze, esas stranja ke en linguo qua multe uzas afixi, on ne kreas vorti quala centimetro e centilitro (same integra segun Dyer) explicite per uzo di prefixo "centi-"! La sistemo metrala ipsa uzas multa prefixi. Pro quo adoptar singla vorto unope (tale ke multa vorti metrala esas ankore ne oficala)? Fakte la skalo da Celsius ne esas ta qua esas uzata nun. Ilua skalo havis cent gradi inter du punti ma segun ol aquo bolias ye 0 e konjelas ye 100. La skalo uzata nun inversigis ta da Celsius. Probable on ofte nomas la nuna skalo "Celsius" ne nur por memorar lu ma anke pro problemo pri la senco di "(*)centigrada/o". Segun la sistemo metrala, la Franca vorto "centigrade" esas centimo di grado di angulo, quale centimetro esas centimo di metro, e "grado" (vorto qua havas tro multa senci en Ido) esas centimo di orto. Kordiale, Robert C. Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade": Centième partie du grade, unité d'angle. Échelle de température à 100 degrés, aujourd'hui appelée échelle Celsius. - http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/centigrade/14111 centigrade adj inv 1 divisé en cent degrés (sur une échelle de température) nm 2 centième de grade, en tant qu'unité angulaire (symbole : cg) 3 qualifiait autrefois une échelle de températures sur cent degrés - http://dictionnaire.reverso.net/francais-definition/centigrade From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4772 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 11162 invoked by uid 102); 13 Jan 2017 22:28:25 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 22:28:25 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 29746 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2017 22:28:25 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 22:28:25 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.43 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: .70gec4WLDvf5tpttXcM2MmNBId9P.uz70fVcRpSOzqfhVqy s7UL__Lfjp0Zk9up7qnNC7HhiH8OHDRq.L.2s.s0UxD4RrHVrPlAKgps18rh 14QhYmQXh76_quxOblJFFw5FJmNAqIgJQZWsa2Mr_0VvgGrBMnZj4fTWZz4p 5RAWhiwjVdgeLfiPCbrQaeCK5g7Wkfx.qqVf1cFgqtTI4A5RUMysU7amCwUw CglsoVIkN7OyrRA1fnjAb6TscJYJkTsIfKimuoOZPZg34S1H.1GA34bM4GeN 0uybQL.FbFToy8iLesK0_eyz5XbbXm4MltIOgRwRN6I4soWnhUM9UFFCmv9Y 9N684.iZfg0Yb1lk6DZeLGA4Ogmuqzglp.G9rNGuXDw9RDLa2SHk.gb6BKhH I5TWSPMNNDynMhmC9_q.nqkuM_JcV1Iqab3rgpujCPM1CvRlG9H2oN.p05e2 EOoyIDi83PKcaGlqTSpmiBdAo6B1OLIOS9Gu8SKXjuJjWezie3qZSeKaYJit IqrMQPXKeGWiVIz9sVYhyV4DuJrfX9mkm.G083LjXKyu_fYvjhkJTY2_kh.r 3PMkSlr8E4D3RZ0nNRU3uP9DqM0518ey6k47UjrVCm6_c_S4SRTrJNcrkh81 w6KcGrZlyv60oRAISaqYGMSTMwbt4wTAQzVgtQaTZ1gFjoi01H24P348gtDg 8Apz18g3G7sxJ1sUWhTIqUMkRUHkZRkhClk8YJjMiffe3cj7oPvNmYyXF9bB 4ZI4lGeJ1nfuwl3UoOMYCiiZrI4GQyIJ20OpGFvYT2LqPfk7SvCfmsM.VkN3 MACY40_BPZs.aC2j3swb_GpOHvJIYoHTWDurCrLCzKdMdBlIm07vqRUXhhbH eVQ61KEg.2Hjqq3hfBN.etLh7gworGGNdL2PlP.E5dmIWOeFb3rSy1r2ZYXc WhrsoaUVC_4tbsVyVQRKcSuS3fkCnGoYe_5ztw0HHll8d5blYkrlQSUfzsHz ox0S6zJ4PN4iwBbNglgGD9YiKlsVjGrVYJ0NUYaBvBzWsVs9nidevMZXBWGc jALS_c4tpSOGgETt08GsB4eD33FE64IynI8v2S_aqOis.kMKHn1ep3kAV7._ dP_T7uQvAlhvKplpkGgw2v2z5GB.Pzdfww96bDvimRY_Wn9ZRcTAglNnXss9 hjYBY2pN9TZeVXDDyS4Bn5_.4v4BwJj14ecGxkvAeUFdIrrMJDU_MWrkxPHZ ioac2Afzb61m98uI8OAV_srw3WQE2YPbfXBMVG31TUkiVo1D6iAzQm6j3Wb6 1bJSr1NB0QL7tbXXH8rRJtJlMm09wgc_XCWzRv5h3_j4e1GhJrOl0A-- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f43.google.com) (209.85.213.43) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 22:28:25 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f43.google.com with SMTP id 137so42618533vkl.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:28:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=w3cmldw+0jvafqIgodQuc+A3RwqYyFOECA84I3tZQgI=; b=S+xdfojkJytFSaNUlQz0OfUOUIo9kN5ilauHS4uJKXbVTY61ETIycwnM1rZI14fKKb kttwbGKBAcwpe9x4TOBnt0GZS611hzcUfF5Fas/4dZlogN2C3TjHaVoOY0seRowI4g4i La30rU3qGBdc4SLBeN13ULkP2SjNXNR2xlLtzPsXPQMY8nBKkspWntgV/WwKeMC2W62O 8hEQMewj4M0IMbVNc+hQAyYRMd+6brZzALKH41ERAk6g6YPysJLfjhxJUlvhBWiLIWyC ilj4cHScm+WEp0HNn/ZFYWgkWotzuvy3JnXUUDPeCo9MrhiqeYOauqVX70A5Vk3X2Aek rX2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ3hKoo2DRp3L5Yr6NPXXB0qEEhqCnBGEXbNJJ8C0M6Ckf+XC2pnJaP9miM3WnT5kS/2pdGgNYGtTGZcA== X-Received: by 10.31.114.133 with SMTP id n127mr11099573vkc.129.1484346047330; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:20:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:20:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 22:20:46 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1497b4dfff3d0546013eec Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=T6nFAmLqUrkkoQyryTEFVWXKpk6Po_CPUhVop4ezYgRo8mRPdJDYRw X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c1497b4dfff3d0546013eec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe, Danko pro la informo! Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-13 12:3= 0 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, > Yen plusa eroro en mea p= reantea mesajo: > > 1908, English-International > mujar =3D vento, maro (cf= . roar) > > Me ya de longe trovis skanita* versiono di ta dicionarii (da Go= ogle) en la > Interreto. Nu, me ja plurfoye mencionis li en mea blog-artikl= i... > > International-English > https://archive.org/details/internationale= n00jespgoog > > English-International > https://archive.org/details/english= internati00beaurich > > Regretinde, mankas en Int'l-English la komenco di l= a prefaco da Jespersen. > > Me duras serchar International-Fran=C3=A7ais e = Fran=C3=A7ais-International. > --94eb2c1497b4dfff3d0546013eec Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Danko pro la = informo!

Gon=C3=A7alo

2017-01-13 12:30 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phili= ppe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [lin= guolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_214893436715159762ygrp-text">

K= ara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Yen plusa eror= o en mea preantea mesajo:

1908, English-International
mujar =3D vento, maro (cf. roar)

Me ya de longe trovis skanita* versiono di ta dicionarii (da Google) e= n la Interreto. Nu, me ja plurfoye mencionis li en mea blog-artikli...

International-English
https://archive.org/details/= internationalen00jespgoog

English-International
https://archive.org/details/englishinternati00beaurich

Regretinde, mankas en Int'l-English la komenco di la pref= aco da Jespersen.

Me duras serchar International-Fran=C3=A7ais = e Fran=C3=A7ais-International.

--94eb2c1497b4dfff3d0546013eec-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4773 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 25685 invoked by uid 102); 14 Jan 2017 00:11:30 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m7.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 00:11:30 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 21340 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2017 00:11:30 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 00:11:30 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.53 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 6G40C_QWLDsOXFk_HatxLR2rRd.Vozulff6yOfkOepXX43O9 VpKfhZieCklD3M6RCVDCLUDq2FTgL1.hhbAjjtJ5Dk3KmbnIRAeduVYiFv75 gWm8X8rNuuRdGVrhgQeNEOJOpCdydB_aUyN2Y.ekre1wlDwltK3E.gdUxli3 tYm3mF1uAZ2D_wQ8W.7clVZNORZob1aJ6W0eEGK6EV4hz3rrbGTHj9MiFuG. yMs.m4Vdh_Sj.0RfIfhPOpKKlx7ApjX0pEBJExQ2DckuK3yPSoQJTJZ6Oare jMXaaKh8MslNr64FznsxGNKA63h0FuuvloDfNrB_qSbcn35PrzVwzbGAcWb1 McENnux_7u040F.M8w_ktuZGgocEAevmiGTqK_10yK8Kdv6yFDHicTJqvcuy NDFp5GuOaCB0V3YPhN_69ZN7v4NJjem1QpbyTjdTymbZtju8jGy7A4JRbj1_ Ki2GEd0nJkFSNRABIAs7lV_c_lChVzGUHoaTW8HmMsN_.nNbdRA3H2v.gSnL lHgd0LpK4yCGaeCbD2KsBrZQ2Sk7vBy1J6EdS2uHq5kRbCzrxdyEFNhyPBBN WHx1J8JG0agnk4.MQ9k8DTlJopBLJtyV5aXx58YKzojQNdWpA4l3ZrAi2N85 Z6QYGWnJnbYRxBBvgJZ45OoILosfGESE9ct7O6R1irKJcC6r.y5NK8PYsDlG idnvtPmLiE6bobueEat.Q7rN2z17jP7JPoTgFnqy3d_ykrZFivFwWwanTeal _MuxT5xUm4sa6F_crz8Pso9KsqsvVKqtY8euVEVSNbAU0wUfEsu36SY78mGE 3rTZlY72_DRDCNimAzCAlgsA4w.dSEIri3uDjgKbEtusvS4S53xoxAlA7yb3 sFS8Jv33F3bkPVsKiKBOVgoOBV91fxr6NBAFOX1K2VaWICiQkop68dyD7_.B yCY_HlnHioVXsNrbqKP04kK0p5UnLyn2Rrk90MwzMlEhzV56JXUvB2Uc.fNN p0meDDYPQdoVxfrbDQ_xoTmjBrUZLemIvrXRrECSBgsjtpBaJdncd30y5zao zPYFkuYg61ji5N7U1XUo2HRIZwiEW8tYlrn70h6xhBNh.IG2_GNgc1c1U51w QX9yx8e8bBCeM9lVNrdm6tfA1EkRuFWLNAmimiwuLedaJ9xnrrecmETT90VN 7O0UQAS0KDLEXjLuAAUGWE3w6MtekYj8mtcy58GegwXATWDk4rBmnJJPEXKe ..0nWe0wU9ZQnatnPiUiH46FajiPSlri3eBXC31GybBeGurGM8kmAA0UgPW1 Q_ZC5wrx8jXlVOsgFwbpoK7UD2rHDPVOAmXYjJUfYSGHYUHuBsOYdY7xjeoQ Ljfzht_8sGpeENG_DT.K4EYdZhSkKxEMHsh0XPIixTZeXCbrw4KsHYZ3CWKj jpSSsZdtHn2LRfJxl7jBVP8hVDF3rXNAdhw3yOUnepDjsXDaSDiUq3kIzoVp DCMCkPuWX52hVHBrI9irOpm7h56dfSE1ppkgcH71omqKPYUwbEwSdYCadsEX e3v8zTWJljyae4AnhqzgNDtv4S.E3sHdLqe6P0tR02sQfgI88jMLvedNHr2D 0Mg815dfpDf6R7dUpgS.Xk0Uoyk- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f53.google.com) (209.85.215.53) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 00:11:30 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f53.google.com with SMTP id m78so48926900lfg.2 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 16:11:30 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=chtHk1CT5bl93ALevvIko/9UCDeV2OACD3n+CnnhBwA=; b=fvjqvWySpvAe8NPkr4Gre6mmBR13xmer6b8KGK4LGtKgGS4ovYuNvnAP8HwIJDQOEH uDjdkBvTHQR3EdfeP89iCP+Y+GvXND1Ut4F0ASUFjndWyE7KfLKd2gq1wPUtfoyWVIup y8D4fj9aKUm2p16LRV+FaJxWb61swvfGpWtmzdMy8xCt0QyA94JYWkP6cGkMeMyhEdVb +/jQxF8nqq0XXKFUAQhwhazM93rfuAJyWQjVBd2c2meaBUNCAW6ZHZQ3VzlqQztX9b0V 7yPy8/N1vxi7WkjfqOBTE4p7eN9KdNJDrhNH/scbq1d0qKZeH6x2ltaRAkKS9dr7dZ1g eywg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJaFakGbwMReToHC9jzoT2EZwXbo+zDuTuSYdBzI5RR24tJJIrT+/L0Oin0Lyv9QVAmRpr7aETQzHEeSA== X-Received: by 10.46.9.215 with SMTP id 206mr8093209ljj.3.1484352688712; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 16:11:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 16:11:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:11:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114b18eabb721c054602ca69 Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114b18eabb721c054602ca69 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Plezure! Me sendis retpostalo a la Biblioth=C3=A8que municipale de Lyon ed= a Google por la *Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international* (1908). Lu skan= esis* da ci en 2013. Regretinde, la *Dictionnaire international-fran=C3=A7a= is* ne (ja) skanesas*. Malgre to, havar la parto Franco-Ido esus, meajudike= , plu bona kam havar nulo. Cadie, me recevis retpostalo da Google: li acep= tis mea demando publikigar la dicionario Ido-English da Dyer en Google Book= s. Yen lu: https://books.google.ca/books?id=3DHS0PAAAAQAAJ&printsec=3Dfron= tcover Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 5:20 = PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > Danko pro la informo! > = > Gon=C3=A7alo > > 2017-01-13 12:30 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmori= n@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kara = Gon=C3=A7alo, >> Yen plusa eroro en mea preantea mesajo: >> >> 1908, Englis= h-International >> mujar =3D vento, maro (cf. roar) >> >> Me ya de longe tr= ovis skanita* versiono di ta dicionarii (da Google) en >> la Interreto. Nu,= me ja plurfoye mencionis li en mea blog-artikli... >> >> International-Eng= lish >> https://archive.org/details/internationalen00jespgoog >> >> English= -International >> https://archive.org/details/englishinternati00beaurich >>= >> Regretinde, mankas en Int'l-English la komenco di la prefaco da Jespers= en. >> >> Me duras serchar International-Fran=C3=A7ais e Fran=C3=A7ais-Inte= rnational. >> > > > --001a114b18eabb721c054602ca69 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Plezure!

Me sendis retpostalo a la Bibl= ioth=C3=A8que municipale de Lyon ed a Google por la Dictionnaire fran=C3= =A7ais-international (1908). Lu skanesis* da ci en 2013. Regretinde, la= Dictionnaire international-fran=C3=A7ais=C2=A0ne (ja) skanesas*. Ma= lgre to, havar la parto Franco-Ido esus, meajudike, plu bona kam havar nulo= .

Cadie, me recevis retpostalo da Google: li acept= is mea demando publikigar la dicionario Ido-English da Dyer en Google Books= .


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gne= ves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0

Ka= ra Gilles-Philippe,

Danko pro la informo!

Gon=C3= =A7alo

2017-01-13 12:30 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguol= isto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Yen plusa eroro en mea preantea mesajo:

1908, English-International
mujar =3D vento, maro (cf. roar)
Me ya de longe trovis skanita* = versiono di ta dicionarii (da Google) en la Interreto. Nu, me ja plurfoye m= encionis li en mea blog-artikli...

International-English
https://archive.org/details/internationalen00jespgoog

English-International
https://archive.org/details/engl= ishinternati00beaurich

Re= gretinde, mankas en Int'l-English la komenco di la prefaco da Jespersen= .

Me duras serchar Internatio= nal-Fran=C3=A7ais e Fran=C3=A7ais-International.

=

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'Aeroplano' devenas la Franca 'a= =C3=A9roplane' qua nun esas obsoleta (de pos la duesma mondmilito, me kreda= s). Nun ni uzas 'avion' en la Franca. To forsan esas pro quo ni nun havas '= aviono'. 'Hola', tale quale 'fi', ne plus uzesas en la Angla. On ankore uz= as li en la Franca, ma en rara kazi (ex. 'hol=C3=A0, ne faites pas tant de = bruit', 'faire fi de'). 'Grado centigrada' (pri temperaturo) esas ciencale= obsoleta, adminime en la Franca e la Angla. On nun uzez 'degr=C3=A9 Celsiu= s' e 'Celsius degree' (Celsius-grado). Yen la justa defino di "centigrada"= en la Angla, segun Webster (1913): Consisting of a hundred degrees; gradu= ated into a hundred divisions or equal parts. Specifically: Of or pertainin= g to the centigrade thermometer; as, 10=C2=B0 *centigrade* (or 10=C2=B0 C.)= . Segun ta defino, ulo "centigrada" esas irgo qua gradizesas per 100 gradi= , diviuri o parti egala. "Exemple: depozar ne esas de-pozar; diskursiva ne= esas diskurs-iva; generalo ne esas gener-alo; jineto ne esas jin-eto; komi= suro ne esas komis-uro. Kande existas tala vorto-pari, importas indikar kla= re en lexiki ke vorto nederivita ya existas nedepenante. Altrakaze, importa= s ne dividar vorto nedividita." Bona e justa exempli. Do, kande ta du "rad= iki" oficaleskis e quon li signifikas? Gilles-Philippe On Fri, Jan 13, 2= 017 at 13:06 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com> wrote: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > Vu dicas: "*deturn/ar e= *deven/ar certe ne povas existar kom aparta > radiki, nam li konfliktus di= rete kun de-turnar e de-venar. Esas do nula > klarigo necesa." Tamen, on po= vus dicar simile pri multa altra vorti. > > Exemple: depozar ne esas de-poz= ar; diskursiva ne esas diskurs-iva; > generalo ne esas gener-alo; jineto ne= esas jin-eto; komisuro ne esas > komis-uro. Kande existas tala vorto-pari,= importas indikar klare en lexiki > ke vorto nederivita ya existas nedepena= nte. Altrakaze, importas ne dividar > vorto nedividita. > > La skalo por te= mperaturo da Celsius esas cent-grada o centigrada ma ne > centi-grada. > > = Pro quo vu dicas ke "centigrado" esas obsoleta vorto en la naturala > lingu= i, tale quale "aeroplano", "hola", e.c.? > > Dictionnaire Hachette (1997) d= icas ke un di du senci di "centigrade" esas > (geom.) centima parto di grad= o (simbolo: cgr). Ye "grade" ol donas quar > senci qui inkluzas (geom.) "un= it=C3=A9 d'arc et d'angle (symbole: gr.). La > conf=C3=A9rence est divis=C3= =A9e en 400 grades. 1 grade =3D 0,9 degr=C3=A9." Pro quo vu > opinionas ke = omna tri dicionarii citita eroras? > > Google indikas cirkume 17.500.000 re= zulti por "aeroplane" - vorto esas > ofte uzata en Britania. (Por la Usana = vorto equivalanta, "airplane", esas > cirkume 146.000.000 rezulti.) > > Kor= diale, > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolist= o] - Thu, 12 Jan 2017 > 17:01:53 -0500: > > Kara Robert, > Danko pro la res= pondo. > > Regretinde, me ne havas originalo di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. La= vorto > "aerpinselo" mankas en la transskriburo da Tiberio Madonna. > > *d= eturn/ar e *deven/ar certe ne povas existar kom aparta radiki, nam li > kon= fliktus direte kun de-turnar e de-venar. Esas do nula klarigo necesa. > > P= ri astrofiziko, lu esas la fako astrala di fiziko. Me do vidas nula > probl= emo kun astro-fiziko. Lu ja esas en Dyer. Pesch ultempe kontenas > stranjaj= i... > > Yen informo en la Angla pri la skalo centigrada: > https://www.bri= tannica.com/technology/Celsius-temperature-scale > > On chanjis la nomo di = la skalo en 1948, por honorizar Celsius. > > Pro to, la dicionarii da Dyer = (1922-1924) certe kontenas "centigrad-o, -a" > vice "Celsius-grado"... > > = Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade", la justa defino esas la duesma da > Larou= sse e la triesma da Reverso. > > "centigrado" esas obsoleta vorto en la nat= urala lingui, tale quale > "aeroplano", "hola", e.c. > > Centigrado esas un= ek la cent gradi inter la temperaturo di kongelo e ta > di bolio. > > Yen = exemplo de la Tr=C3=A9sor de la Langue Fran=C3=A7aise ( > http://www.cnrtl.= fr/definition/centigrade): > > "... malgre la naraci da la voyajeri, la tem= peraturo dil inferno ne ecesas > 60 gradi centigrada." > > Kun kordiala sal= uti, > Gilles-Philippe > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:14 PM, 'Robert C.' ido= @avenue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Ka= ra Gilles-Philippe, > > Danko pri vua komenti. Me ne havas tempo por diskut= ar omno detaloze. Vu e > me darfas havar opinioni, ma mea listo esas por in= dikar ke la lexiki > bezonas adminime multa klarigi ed emendi, e mem unesme= decidi da ULI. Esas > probable multa altra vorti problemoza (mem komencant= e per litero a-d). > > "aerpinselo" esas en Roze ye la fino di pagino 5, se= mble ne kom vorto > kompozita (aer-pinsel-o?). Ka vorto esas kompozita ek p= lura radiki ne esas > inter la plu grava problemi, ma mencioninda. Simile p= ri astro(-)fiziko, > de(-)turnar e de(-)venar. > > Pri "centigrado" vu dica= s "centigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada > sistemo, t.e. la si= stemo da Celsius." Centimo di quo? On lektas ofte ke la > temperaturo dil a= ero esas 10 gradi C. Me ne memoras irgafoye lektar ke la > temperaturo esas= 10 centigradi. (Kompreneble, por tre preciza mezuri por > cienco on povas = dividar la grado a centimi o mem milimi.) > > Pluse me kredas ke Pesch eror= as, dicante ke centigrado esas "Dividita a > 100 gradi", ma ke centigramo e= sas "Parto centima di gramo" e centilitro > esas "Parto centima di litro". = Parenteze, esas stranja ke en linguo qua > multe uzas afixi, on ne kreas vo= rti quala centimetro e centilitro (same > integra segun Dyer) explicite per= uzo di prefixo "centi-"! La sistemo > metrala ipsa uzas multa prefixi. Pro= quo adoptar singla vorto unope (tale > ke multa vorti metrala esas ankore = ne oficala)? > > Fakte la skalo da Celsius ne esas ta qua esas uzata nun. I= lua skalo havis > cent gradi inter du punti ma segun ol aquo bolias ye 0 e = konjelas ye 100. > La skalo uzata nun inversigis ta da Celsius. Probable on= ofte nomas la nuna > skalo "Celsius" ne nur por memorar lu ma anke pro pro= blemo pri la senco di > "(*)centigrada/o". > > Segun la sistemo metrala, la= Franca vorto "centigrade" esas centimo di > grado di angulo, quale centime= tro esas centimo di metro, e "grado" (vorto > qua havas tro multa senci en = Ido) esas centimo di orto. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > Pri la Franca vort= o "centigrade": > > Centi=C3=A8me partie du grade, unit=C3=A9 d'angle. > = =C3=89chelle de temp=C3=A9rature =C3=A0 100 degr=C3=A9s, aujourd'hui appel= =C3=A9e =C3=A9chelle Celsius. > - http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/fran= cais/centigrade/14111 > > centigrade > adj inv > 1 divis=C3=A9 en cent degr= =C3=A9s (sur une =C3=A9chelle de temp=C3=A9rature) > nm > 2 centi=C3=A8me d= e grade, en tant qu'unit=C3=A9 angulaire (symbole : cg) > 3 qualifiait autr= efois une =C3=A9chelle de temp=C3=A9ratures sur cent degr=C3=A9s > - http:/= /dictionnaire.reverso.net/francais-definition/centigrade > > > --001a11411f5e8d05390546037c47 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Obsoleta, to esas en la linguo originala. 'Aeroplano&#= 39; devenas la Franca 'a=C3=A9roplane' qua nun esas obsoleta (de po= s la duesma mondmilito, me kredas). Nun ni uzas 'avion' en la Franc= a. To forsan esas pro quo ni nun havas 'aviono'.

'Hola&#= 39;, tale quale 'fi', ne plus uzesas en la Angla. On ankore uzas li= en la Franca, ma en rara kazi (ex. 'hol=C3=A0, ne faites pas tant de b= ruit', 'faire fi de').

'Grado centigrada' (pri = temperaturo) esas ciencale obsoleta, adminime en la Franca e la Angla. On n= un uzez 'degr=C3=A9 Celsius' e 'Celsius degree' (Celsius-gr= ado).

Yen la justa defino di "centigrada" en l= a Angla, segun Webster (1913):

Consisting of a hun= dred degrees; graduated into a hundred divisions or equal parts. Specifical= ly: Of or pertaining to the centigrade thermometer; as, 10=C2=B0 centigr= ade (or 10=C2=B0 C.).

Segun ta defino, ulo "centigrada"= ; esas irgo qua gradizesas per 100 gradi, diviuri o parti egala.
=
"Exemple: depozar ne esas de-pozar; diskursiva ne = esas diskurs-iva; generalo ne esas gener-alo; jineto ne esas jin-eto; komis= uro ne esas komis-uro. Kande existas tala vorto-pari, importas indikar klar= e en lexiki ke vorto nederivita ya existas nedepenante. Altrakaze, importas= ne dividar vorto nedividita."

Bona e justa e= xempli. Do, kande ta du "radiki" oficaleskis e quon li signifikas= ?

Gilles-Philippe


On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 13:06 'Robe= rt C.' ido@avenue= .me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =

Kara Gi= lles-Philippe,

Vu dicas: "*deturn/ar e *deven/ar certe ne povas existar= kom aparta radiki, nam li konfliktus direte kun de-turnar e de-venar. Esas= do nula klarigo necesa." Tamen, on povus dicar simile pri multa altra= vorti.

Exemple: depozar ne esas de-pozar; diskursiva ne esas diskurs-iva; g= eneralo ne esas gener-alo; jineto ne esas jin-eto; komisuro ne esas komis-u= ro. Kande existas tala vorto-pari, importas indikar klare en lexiki ke vort= o nederivita ya existas nedepenante. Altrakaze, importas ne dividar vorto n= edividita.

La skalo por temperaturo da Celsius esas cent-grada o centigrada = ma ne centi-grada.

Pro quo vu dicas ke "centigrado" esas obsoleta = vorto en la naturala lingui, tale quale "aeroplano", "hola&q= uot;, e.c.?

Dictionnaire Hachette (1997) dicas ke un di du senci di "ce= ntigrade" esas (geom.) centima parto di grado (simbolo: cgr). Ye "= ;grade" ol donas quar senci qui inkluzas (geom.) "unit=C3=A9 d= 9;arc et d'angle (symbole: gr.). La conf=C3=A9rence est divis=C3=A9e en= 400 grades. 1 grade =3D 0,9 degr=C3=A9." Pro quo vu opinionas ke omna= tri dicionarii citita eroras?

Google indikas cirkume 17.500.000 rezulti por= "aeroplane" - vorto esas ofte uzata en Britania. (Por la Usana v= orto equivalanta, "airplane", esas cirkume 146.000.000 rezulti.)<= br class=3D"gmail-m_-4005659128613176732m_-5035597366245070289gmail_msg"> <= br class=3D"gmail-m_-4005659128613176732m_-5035597366245070289gmail_msg"> K= ordiale,
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 12 Jan 2017 17:0= 1:53 -0500:

Kara Robert,
Danko pro la resp= ondo.

Regretinde, me ne havas originalo di la Lexiko di Nova Vorti. La vorto= "aerpinselo" mankas en la transskriburo da Tiberio Madonna.

*detu= rn/ar e *deven/ar certe ne povas existar kom aparta radiki, nam li konflikt= us direte kun de-turnar e de-venar. Esas do nula klarigo necesa.

Pri astro= fiziko, lu esas la fako astrala di fiziko. Me do vidas nula problemo kun as= tro-fiziko. Lu ja esas en Dyer. Pesch ultempe kontenas stranjaji...

Yen info= rmo en la Angla pri la skalo centigrada:
https://www.britannic= a.com/technology/Celsius-temperature-scale

On chanjis la nomo = di la skalo en 1948, por honorizar Celsius.

Pro to, la dicionarii da Dyer (1= 922-1924) certe kontenas "centigrad-o, -a" vice "Celsius-gra= do"...

Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade", la justa defino esas= la duesma da Larousse e la triesma da Reverso.

"centigrado" esas = obsoleta vorto en la naturala lingui, tale quale "aeroplano", &qu= ot;hola", e.c.

Centigrado esas un ek la cent gradi inter la temperaturo= di kongelo e ta di bolio.

Yen exemplo de la Tr=C3=A9sor de la Langue Fran= =C3=A7aise (http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/centigrade):

"... malgre la= naraci da la voyajeri, la temperaturo dil inferno ne ecesas 60 gradi centi= grada."

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:14= PM, 'Robert C.' i= do@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Kara G= illes-Philippe,

Danko pri vua komenti. Me ne havas tempo por diskutar omno d= etaloze. Vu e me darfas havar opinioni, ma mea listo esas por indikar ke la= lexiki bezonas adminime multa klarigi ed emendi, e mem unesme decidi da UL= I. Esas probable multa altra vorti problemoza (mem komencante per litero a-= d).

"aerpinselo" esas en Roze ye la fino di pagino 5, semble ne ko= m vorto kompozita (aer-pinsel-o?). Ka vorto esas kompozita ek plura radiki = ne esas inter la plu grava problemi, ma mencioninda. Simile pri astro(-)fiz= iko, de(-)turnar e de(-)venar.

Pri "centigrado" vu dicas "cen= tigrado: esas centimo (=C2=B0) en la centigrada sistemo, t.e. la sistemo da= Celsius." Centimo di quo? On lektas ofte ke la temperaturo dil aero e= sas 10 gradi C. Me ne memoras irgafoye lektar ke la temperaturo esas 10 cen= tigradi. (Kompreneble, por tre preciza mezuri por cienco on povas dividar l= a grado a centimi o mem milimi.)

Pluse me kredas ke Pesch eroras, dicante ke= centigrado esas "Dividita a 100 gradi", ma ke centigramo esas &q= uot;Parto centima di gramo" e centilitro esas "Parto centima di l= itro". Parenteze, esas stranja ke en linguo qua multe uzas afixi, on n= e kreas vorti quala centimetro e centilitro (same integra segun Dyer) expli= cite per uzo di prefixo "centi-"! La sistemo metrala ipsa uzas mu= lta prefixi. Pro quo adoptar singla vorto unope (tale ke multa vorti metral= a esas ankore ne oficala)?

Fakte la skalo da Celsius ne esas ta qua esas uza= ta nun. Ilua skalo havis cent gradi inter du punti ma segun ol aquo bolias = ye 0 e konjelas ye 100. La skalo uzata nun inversigis ta da Celsius. Probab= le on ofte nomas la nuna skalo "Celsius" ne nur por memorar lu ma= anke pro problemo pri la senco di "(*)centigrada/o".

Segun la sis= temo metrala, la Franca vorto "centigrade" esas centimo di grado = di angulo, quale centimetro esas centimo di metro, e "grado" (vor= to qua havas tro multa senci en Ido) esas centimo di orto.

Kordiale,
Robert = C.

Pri la Franca vorto "centigrade":

Centi=C3=A8me partie du grade,= unit=C3=A9 d'angle.
=C3=89chelle de temp=C3=A9rature =C3=A0 100 degr= =C3=A9s, aujourd'hui appel=C3=A9e =C3=A9chelle Celsius.
- = http://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/centigrade/14111
=
= centigrade
adj inv
1 divis=C3=A9 en cent degr=C3=A9s (sur une =C3=A9chel= le de temp=C3=A9rature)
nm
2 centi=C3=A8me de grade, en tant qu'unit= =C3=A9 angulaire (symbole : cg)
3 qualifiait autrefois une =C3=A9chelle de= temp=C3=A9ratures sur cent degr=C3=A9s
- http://dictionnaire.= reverso.net/francais-definition/centigrade

=
--001a11411f5e8d05390546037c47-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4775 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 13769 invoked by uid 102); 14 Jan 2017 01:36:24 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 01:36:24 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 13166 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2017 01:36:24 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 01:36:24 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.54 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: BVcGLlEWLDuXbbLV_4z5_9T.rS04ILpgtA02fYNnpUEsfSpO uZgXLR3dl0s0.ILQekIqBe5RgnZPgebxIP2XAjmLkuNaJeu4VgmF95wAAN9l 67jddVQsvOmwj.5YksKdukiDhOZBX8g_Vk1gdsUeWbI2pfwcL0f5beMMBXYI R2JC3n.KJgrIIUDh1qFajKdEAIJCNdUn.cJ0t2IBD8a5karh.0XV_t4ia1zl UETnCf0FDlRT0eVqs.xmL5CZLj5UVwUjw05zCouMuWmAQr4xE8WLJkak.9bd vnErsdRIR7gG2HYSVVU_78.6zQAbpklvVrJe1R5rAOhlBpoNEsNgezKNKfv8 vineFO_Hx2zwYtdyW6jCB23vyVlzRWoHurkLKQe5PQ.FUeH0nPlGG_NT1kHT 1bBPsjVuY7kAi7MsZLeN9c_x2O9jOdekPPq1DzPYq5jQ2ZZrTX5nmNjtJx3P dAIrhFFvhsl8Ne.bErcqWQ.mTWnulZCdDOHcooZjVj9rw.ZYzxdgNBAZoMD0 rVdA.NpV1e80lgb4d4I5ADR3DSD93OynpKjbrvU25cBl4eYIwdCkM0fYRrml WkOBJpue5s38hHBloz7c.oz9IHkTGLVkPDgd8BF.08bzxHx65VXMpT83.DWy 4mGjJkHo3Y28QN.xnx4MX6eeZcB4OYi_W.4oTJhGjLEBmg5Wk_DX1jBxFyst oYukQX04Ml2g_AS3uS3rRkG43KoaTwpDDmJuhAlRSxl503NB2PY1kyUbbph4 9iXOwslcti6zPFHi.io2ESNhWJcobqsaBDSDVm7tMeXjZnYOXPtj_agLZ0lp 2wPr5hZpBVGVGFoY0SZrlyWzO36t1j3YZX5lxCAXMHGH2dFdJ8p5mqXEvGkT IrgEIOG2SyT6eXgs5nqdfo9BJNrbA5_tfZqwmQoOQ.T9hyTl8tPD8BScc322 K5lUPzzRTY62.ZNecl_p1EOKAuVlJ355wijHS_VO.O2QG3lihCmyLRSb4yI9 UEXVBfIqQHq_GgwuGk3i5uTkXK0yxQ3zxERsUk7PlUONmbju7eR_d3zLhBkX hYuwOYCOdiHm.PUSAdU4RgstkxV2ih0k_LwGBVVlLmj8uJwAvvXRQDFCtvii 7fy.g64FbT5_RH_VcWrpT57iLQ16xdCBfnUdcyui9ckW4SLRXPlRkowTv7de q2esB8oh_u4D3AK1DNvposzrOj.Fx0R8i193hFbQH7rnsaxWzgjLMWuDEFZx R2moibpiTJ.0QWj2gsJHeCfUwIubkQOcD3XXlvwR2XntNJerg_CxVyfrazUM U2ZJ7grIrJlunV2E06GuOplsrNGTViwKNTpFdqe62LgaB.819WbmjfF9gilz TngptjWsp3MHabVZXPCz0U0SLTBhxjgISGm_9rvpEu7mDtxeLY6a6LoxFlRQ QKmNujRMcQT5WhuPamU4gYnAuBQaoqatoStCEH97mnzsjFjAlepznSarysZK ZbwHi_xKyNSyanFapISjDzGstHsCjbuQoW58l5ggl8mZ1rL9qgKauz7G5kX. kzPKtyngVVVAOB.30PYct.1eeKRRkF6tmMAbflip_PomUnR56muxCYJ3Qgkq WT.jZOA- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f54.google.com) (209.85.215.54) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 01:36:24 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f54.google.com with SMTP id k86so49692286lfi.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 17:36:23 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=77cDeQRxHY3k4en0OV3WNjmjckQzBHwtvxAd0FneUEs=; b=igs3Rqp4JyBw2fwmlFR7ZgLAdkjt/p3g5Y44Ww8qlKQ8izZ/RjmekeKeXpIlVZ7zHX QJl2R1pRCpC2OWDSG9MkLzZ/9Eh7BM9qNht7vwe4yKuRsEdDf4YzBKmhEkca8WHpVk/m dU5nIPVtKpmoKxceCoNoVrCANHTVasrpyf35xROTLRHGO6vt+bXB+5o28LnR6pRzBPes BvWOY7sfiy493Y3wET38hrCZfc9mF99yRvps4swHRxxjWuby/CIM7nABTFJddLKZFku3 9JetEQapVtJNWAU8Hoxp997TjCtsOXx0mjwB2cVyazh4TfkfIaG0/FN1tfIIu2KdLM2H 7R4Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXL6TsXdfAAaXEGrBqQxoMX7okzZIPPV2ezeW1S9H3TMToyjpcnoIWRr0u6gzqXkzIuBrMQ5rZJMmlL0bQ== X-Received: by 10.25.39.4 with SMTP id n4mr1939624lfn.0.1484357782367; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 17:36:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 17:36:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20161231223655.474607@D9B5MN3J> Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 20:36:21 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114024c4567340054603fa40 Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: [idolisto] Re: Dicionario dil ULI X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114024c4567340054603fa40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu, ni ne esez pedanti pri la uzo di "cadie". Ido ofte sequas la stilo di D= EFIRS vice sequar strikta e streta logiko: levar su, kushar su, portar (ves= to, juvelo, e.c.), "me pregas" (voluntez), "bone!", ter-pomo, mar-hundo, ko= ntre-dicar (ulu), movado, cadie, ridetar, e.c. Tua mesajo esas ne pri darfo= ma plu juste pri prefero. Yen quon s-ro Couturat olim skribis: =E2=80=9C= Se la sama penso povas expresesar per diversa manieri, ico nule esas defekt= o di nia linguo, ma vera richeso e komodeso. =E2=80=9CPro quo on supresus o= l per reguli ne-utila, jenanta ed arbitriala? =E2=80=9CKonkluzo: Ni sempre = esez liberala, ni ne divenez pedanta!=E2=80=9D Me judikas ke on *darfas* u= zar "cadie" por tradukar la Franca "ces jours-ci" o la Angla "these days". = La dicionarii da Dyer suportas to. La Anglaparolanto darfas dicar "these da= ys" tote quale lu darfas dicar "nowadays" kom sinonimo, do pro quo ni ne po= vus agar tale en Ido? Se me devus tradukar "these days", me uzus "cadie"; s= e me devus tradukar "nowadays", me uzus "nuntempe". Ma me povus uzar li inv= ese. Amikale, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-13 12:55 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@y= ahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Ta-kaze, oport= us uzar nul-tempe nek "hodi.e" nek "ca-die" por indikar to, > quon on bone = povas expresar per "nun, nun-tempe, nun-epoke, prezente", edc; > "hodi.e" (= mem sen prefixo "ho-") esez por referar NUR al dio, quan ni > trairas. > > = (Partaka) > > > --001a114024c4567340054603fa40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, ni ne esez pedanti pri la uzo di "cadie". Id= o ofte sequas la stilo di DEFIRS vice sequar strikta e streta logiko: levar= su, kushar su, portar (vesto, juvelo, e.c.), "me pregas" (volunt= ez), "bone!", ter-pomo, mar-hundo, kontre-dicar (ulu), movado, ca= die, ridetar, e.c. Tua mesajo esas ne pri darfo ma plu juste pri prefero.
Yen quon s-ro Couturat olim skribis:

=
=E2=80=9CSe la sama penso povas expresesar per diversa manieri, i= co nule esas defekto di nia linguo, ma vera richeso e komodeso.
= =E2=80=9CPro quo on supresus ol per reguli ne-utila, jenanta ed arbitriala?=
=E2=80=9CKonkluzo: Ni sempre esez liberala, ni ne divenez pe= danta!=E2=80=9D

Me judikas ke on darf= as=C2=A0uzar "cadie" por tradukar la Franca "ces jours-c= i" o la Angla "these days". La dicionarii da Dyer suportas t= o. La Anglaparolanto darfas dicar "these days" tote quale lu darf= as dicar "nowadays" kom sinonimo, do pro quo ni ne povus agar tal= e en Ido? Se me devus tradukar "these days", me uzus "cadie&= quot;; se me devus tradukar "nowadays", me uzus "nuntempe&qu= ot;. Ma me povus uzar li invese.

Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-13 12:55 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Ta-kaze,= oportus uzar nul-tempe nek "hodi.e" nek "ca-die" por i= ndikar to, quon on bone povas expresar per "nun, nun-tempe, nun-epoke,= prezente", edc; "hodi.e" (mem sen prefixo "ho-") = esez por referar NUR al dio, quan ni trairas.=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka) =C2=A0

=
=

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Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", "antimi= litar-ismo", e.c. Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lekta= do. 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [ling= uolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > S= e *optim/ ne existas kom aparta radiko, "optimist/ ed optimism/ certe > esa= s aparta radiki, mem se on prizentas oli kom optim/ist ed optim/ism... > > = 2017-01-11 15:55 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [ling= uolisto] : > >> >> >> Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, >> Da= nko pro la informo. Tu skribis: "optimist/ ed optimism/ cesez existar >> ko= m aparta radiki", or ka li vere esas aparta radiki? Dyer separas -ist e >> = -ism. >> >> Amikale, >> Gilles-Philippe >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:28 Go= n=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >>> >>> En SIL me propo= zis: >>> >>> **optim*/*a.* Qua atingis la maxim bona stando [AFG *optimal* = | H >>> *=C3=B3ptimo* | I *ottimo*, *ottimale* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8= =D0=BC=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E *optimuma*]. * >>> *optimiga= r.* Igar ulo maxim bona posible: **optimigar la sanesala servi* >>> [A *to = optimize*,* optimise* | F *optimiser *| G *optimieren* | H >>> *optimizar*,= * optimar* | I *ottimizzare* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8=D0=B7= =D0=B8=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C | E >>> *optimumigi*]. **optimaj= o,* *lo ***optima.* La maxim bona stando di ulo >>> [AF *optimum* | G *Opti= mum* | H *=C3=B3ptimo* | I *ottimo* | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D1= =83=D0=BC | E >>> *optimumo*]. *REM.* *optimist*/ ed *optimism*/ cesez exis= tar kom aparta >>> radiki e reguloze derivesez de **optim/*. Fonti: (*~e*) = Juste ( >>> *Progreso* 306, p. 7). >>> >>> >>> (Pri *pesima, *royala e.a. o= n facile povos kompozar simila artikli) >>> >>> >>> Kordiale, >>> >>> >>> G= on=C3=A7alo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2017-01-11 14:19 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe = Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >= >> >>> >>> >>> Kara samideani, >>> Me trovis la vorti 'royal-ismo', 'royal-= isto', 'optim-ismo', >>> 'optim-isto', 'pesim-ismo', 'pesim-isto', e.c., ch= e Dyer. Ka la radiki >>> 'royal', 'optim' e 'pesim' havas senco aparta? >>>= >>> Kun kordiala saluti, >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> >>> >>> > > --f403045ec30e2fa47a0546040e7d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "= militar-ismo", "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.

<= div>Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado.
=

=

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Kara samideani,
Quo esas la difero inter -aj- ante 1925 e -aj- pos 1925?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
--f403045ec30eec296d05460509c6-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4778 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 62185 invoked by uid 102); 14 Jan 2017 03:39:30 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m16.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 03:39:30 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 2995 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2017 03:39:30 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 03:39:30 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: HdKlseYWLDvwHoqWJoFqVAzBe1rtbBlndYAjhpj2vaWaPrQ3 sP1T6JkJRx7L7fqxbFnz9YxW4KI3xshTzhEl0L84XkjIohGwbS0zogyy5awO 5bJlCZrlJ3X0.dMCtdwyA134_byWFW.bgjsYArBafgNDlp3.sCPNpWMZzhJp uqhPNuwu3yPI1NOgCPrFR57eeTtuFKW2_gI38ZUw.yIiVYHSdzfdNy4NKYyJ F7IfvwI69rpUr7AqTxhQ3H_ggL_Ofink_R4oP01.LG9zsLv4r49k6ydcWtWs 9Qnk9ZEnOcrKuphrcMJPDa4vAGwcnldGUqdBAOstTWyhM8LXcegtXyj5UuZV b7SOTXDS8yeEz7loqEJb7XYbki5gW2iMUiYhyywmX3SwM.OXy17xEqC7XeGh JSFMPTDAQ6w6WsSi1WS0GXlOJFWGeFS07cX3h6XpEqGWUqZ.cw_zJT2q4htB sVvGgaGgkf2yGLnHs_8F4ZDb9Dmj4XeRU6BSY71x067PnSrXiBroY7yucLv8 UUKsYeWGH.5WTTq5n5pa0hh5nbgkfhJDiM.GC1vNdsxt.31SNB09rw71x0WW P4tnMx4FhvVAy_VD3wBJsKOuZ5J87EmYHbq_.uEhqbfjICwjmx4SvHCOpVbb 3jlHTib9MfIVqftU.lGw5mp_FyvFlnId9HhYAOOuVl_XG7Ive6t6iWJ32Tjk zGBm.ulexXMKPDr_UoxQj_YFgE2.02jgndaefCyxS5RPRAwx7XYod5z8qwpm L1Cheyw5L47zHAlt3nBBtWYEMx8w7qiV_nOHE5ObJjQxaPW0l7Jxd9DggW48 5asf8DvvTAemj_C62vjAIitRs4fTqlWc86vRAxhzgOeItVmrlO1VURBtz8Rl _z1MVL9b3bHRkoGolBDj.45gASjXcsf_OyuuD41dj9InGy9SCYTJffYczLGN qv62msY7FltQ_9TCi0Burcz_R6lOFQx_MFYHbu7Ak4H9hWaIQcCZTEEWsm6X _17gypgx1FJ_yIFj0oljLV8QEU9vDTbJkSm9rUpuuPudTKg5IxuTmRUq55M2 lJo89gfdqn4TtpzL0ouuEjknQEmBwb1pkTDskl8rDsy5wc.GT.d9bmpKbzvY Nj_fYiiDPYzrDnJIx7W3SPdXoxhX4gAUsjnf43ZUsRditwPJMxUysXX_1A3I t7MbzQ8qSnfb5witB5kp8fPkCXE442OT.LOuiM6X487cwRmVvIkizoFYXuvB jOWzqx7ZO5aBRzJdDI3CPrCvGlfs0fZbe3.J4umE_g-- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f50.google.com) (209.85.215.50) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 03:39:30 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f50.google.com with SMTP id m78so50644415lfg.2 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:39:29 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=VjyKo5wKlP0X6brbYYGQi39+OlrmlJp3hRHNqZWaLTE=; b=Df6Abqy9zwLa8sQyjxcBsjgqjaMwf3BwvkalAfJvrKnea2Se02zRiEUVDhBIU3r7p9 R4nQzXQy7qiV3pXiV0KDsC/IrbNKHD3O9mTcPzT75CB5VvYzpPnpeX6N9b1En/uz8Q2Y A+SVq+hvspq7Ejcd7k1S3+JfKmQs58/UiMvQBCjM3HdQhbDC3+UQQMuq5ACTf0/P1DRq 9ubT22E62dZQqFIHBy4Tq2gY4304Q7EDVPTKpoKtAY7Yw4I6mm3jgxG8lOBqYCqYBp+I oF83VerDEZpYn6t9f5akeQnop9rSbujk80Nt3EQ/QRAm1q3lbW/Bey/89dS4abAjX74F cOHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIKwyoMlOUFeLtaYPhph9Iaq6pQ6XSapaD+dmLnyOqqf41of7uqE93KFxL6JSVreGATKHUuO70/9mIa0w== X-Received: by 10.25.16.28 with SMTP id f28mr9289276lfi.89.1484364760732; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:32:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 19:32:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 22:32:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f8fa447dc130546059a2f Subject: Re: Sufixo -aj- X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113f8fa447dc130546059a2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yen plusa problemo: Me lektas en plura fonti, olda or nova (Complete Manua= l, Dyer, Kompleta Gramatiko, Pesch), ke *-aj-* kun verbo netransitiva expre= sas *l'aganto*. Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. *bavar*, *drool*).= Or, me lektas omnaloke ke "bavar" esas verbo netransitiva! Do on ne povas= bavar *ulo*, ma *ulo* bavas! Ma me trovas tala uzo pluraloke, mem en defi= ni (Pesch): *spumo: 1.* Quaza moso qua naskas surface di liquido quan onu = agitas, varmigas o qua fermentacas. *2.* *Bavajo* mosatra qua naskas ye la = boko di ula animali kande li esas ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI Do, k= a la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "bavar", fakte, esas mixita? O = ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe = 2017-01-13 21:52 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin : > K= ara samideani, > Quo esas la difero inter -aj- ante 1925 e -aj- pos 1925? >= > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > --001a113f8fa447dc130546059a2f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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La= vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same kam "kanono" (ekleziala) e "ka= nono" (militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en omna lingui. En Ido oli existas m= inime, e le existanta apene povas produktar konflikti, segun mea experienco= . Existas plusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la v= orto "venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua int= ima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, segu= n mea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko "vener/", de q= ua on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika", anke trovebla che Dyer. En la = verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. Pearson e = L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto "ve= neraji" (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB... Meaopinione, "m= etodisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem prizentinda) kom reguloza d= erivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne expozis tala derivo, forsan pro= manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, sen= ecepte, la du koncepti esas expresata per du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro = manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas nula derivala difero inter la trio= "turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio "metodo/metodisto/metodismo"... 2017-01-= 14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dy= er ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e > "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? = > > E "metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne? > > G= P > > 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [ling= uolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> O forsan Dyer intenci= s montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas kom "latenta" >> aparta radiko... Ye= n lo skribita pri *militar/ en SIL: >> >> **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A *m= ilitary* | F *militaire* | G *Milit=C3=A4r-*, >> *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *mi= litar* | I *militare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E *m= ilitista*]. >> **militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare (exemple, per= sendar >> soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.c.= ): **militarigar >> lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* Politikala sistem= o en qua >> preponderas la *militara povo. *2* Tendenco a fortigar armeo e = solvar >> konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. **militaristo.* Ade= pto di >> ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.* *militarism/* cesez existar kom apa= rta >> radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas *militaristo* e *militarigar* kom deri= vaji >> de *militarismo*, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di= *militar/* kom >> aparta radiko; Stuifbergen (*Progreso* 338, p. 10: ****m= ilitara zono*). >> >> >> 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>>= >>> Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", >>= > "antimilitar-ismo", e.c. >>> >>> Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por si= mpligar la lektado. >>> >>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves g= neves64@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>>>= >>>> >> > > --001a114425564e5a03054618d384 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
La vorti "atik-i= smo" ed "atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko *Atika,= necesa i.a. por expresar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo", quan altre on apene po= vus expresar komode. La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, sa= me kam "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kanono" (militala) i.a. = Homonimi existas en omna lingui. En Ido oli existas minime, e le existanta = apene povas produktar konflikti, segun mea experienco.

Existas plusa "latenta" = radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la vorto "venerala", = definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua intima=C2=BB, ma che= Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, segun mea i= nterpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko "vener= /", de qua on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika"= ;, anke trovebla che Dyer. En la verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Ep= ikteto", tradukita da C. S. Pearson e L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / c= adie / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto "veneraji" (p. 16), glosi= zita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB...

Meaopinione, "metodisto" e "metodismo= " esas prizentebla (o mem prizentinda) kom reguloza derivaji de "= metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne expozis tala derivo, forsan pro manko = di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senecepte,= la du koncepti esas expresata per du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro manko d= i novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas nula derivala difero inter la trio "= turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio "metodo/metodisto/metodismo"= ...

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] = <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-i= smo" e "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne?<= div>
E "metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esu= s en aparta paragrafo, ka ne?

GP

2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:= 00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
=C2=A0

O forsan Dyer intencis montrar = ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas kom "latenta" aparta radik= o... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ en SIL:

*militar/a. Militistala [<= /span>A military |= F militaire | G Milit=C3=A4r-, m= ilit=C3=A4risch | H = militar | I mil= itare | R =D0=B2= =D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E militista]. *militarigar. O= rganizar o preparar *militare (exemple, per sendar soldati, docar *militara= aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.c.): *militarigar lando, re= giono. *militarismo 1 Politikala sistemo en qua preponder= as la *militara povo. 2 Tendenco a fortigar armeo e solvar konflikti= (precipue internaciona) per milito. *militaristo. Adepto di ta sist= emo o tendenco. Rem. militarism/ = cesez existar kom aparta radiko. Fonti: Dyer= prizentas militaristo e militarigar kom deriva= ji de militarismo, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D ex= isto di militar/ kom aparta radiko; Stuifbergen (Progreso 338, p.=C2=A010: *= militara zono= ).=



2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philipp= e Morin gphmorin@gm= ail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "= ;militar-ismo", "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.

=
Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado.

2017-01-11= 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= ;linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com>:


=



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Amikale, Gilles-Philippe = 2017-01-14 20:54 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > La problemo venas anke de ke la= qualifiki "transitiva" e "netransitiva" > esas nekompleta e nesuficanta. E= n la Portugalana, exemple, on parolas ne > nur pri verbi transitiva e netra= nsitiva, ma anke pri verbi "direte > transitiva", "nedirete transitiva" e m= em "bitransitiva". Tamen mem ica plu > detaloza qualifiko esas nesuficanta = por expresar la tre komplexa e nuancoza > realajo verbala ne nur en Ido, ma= anke en nia lingui nacional. Me propozis > altraspeca expliko en mea artik= lo "Pri transitiveso en Ido" (publikigita en > mea verko "Linguala babili",= 2002, qua balde, pos revizo, itere > disponebleskos en la reto), ed anke p= ri la verbala realajo di Esperanto e > la transitiveso di lua verbi (temo p= olemikala anke en Esperantia) me > skribis esayo en la verda linguo (multe = plu detaloza kam la mencionita > Ido-artiklo), sub la formo di Platonala di= alogo inter Zamenhof, L. de > Beaufront, Kabe e Grabowski, qua publikigesis= unesme da Haupenthal en 2000 > e duesme da UEA (en antologio) en 2015. Nek= l'una (la Ido-artiklo) nek > l'altra (la Esperanto-esayo) produktis granda= (o mem irga) eko, segun > quante me savas... > > En amba verki me argument= as i.a. ke, por saveskar quale uzar certena verbo > (kun o sen objekto, kun= o sen prepoziciono, e, en la kazo di Esperanto, kun > o sen akuzativo), es= as plu importanta, plu utila e mem plu decidigiva > analizar la senco e la = signifiko di la koncernata verbo kam etiketizar ol > kom "transitiva" o "ne= transitiva". Yen du exempli: > > 1) Pri "bavar" (temo di tua antea mesajo).= Olua defino che Pesch esas > yena: =C2=ABLasar fluar la salivo ek la boko= =C2=BB. Se la defino esas korekta =E2=80=93 e > me ya opinionas ke ol esas = tala =E2=80=93 do on povas facile certeskar pri la > senco e signifiko di l= a verbo ed anke pri lua uzo-maniero. Se, dum bavar, > la bavanto lasas flua= r sua salivo ek la boko, do la salivo quan lu lasas > fluar ek la boko cert= e esas bavajo, sen egardo a ke on qualifikas la verbo > kom "transitiva" o = "netransitiva". > > 2) Pri "expirar" (temo di tua jusa mesajo). Olua unesma= defino che Pesh > esas yena: =C2=ABEkpulsar de la pulmoni (la areo qua uze= sis por respiro)=C2=BB. Se > la defino esas korekta =E2=80=93 e me ya opini= onas ke ol esas tala =E2=80=93 do on povas > facile certeskar pri la senco = e signifiko di la verbo ed anke pri lua > uzo-maniero. Se, dum expirar, la = expiranto ekpulsas de sua pulmoni la aero > qua uzesis por respiro, do la u= zita aero quan lua pulmoni ekpulsas certe > esas expirajo, sen egardo a ke = on qualifikas la verbo kom "transitiva" o > "netransitiva". Anke la du cete= ra defini di "expirar" esas analizebla tale, > ma me ne volas tedar mea tre= poka lektanti per tro longa mesajo... > > Kordiale, > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > >= > 2017-01-14 16:55 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [l= inguolisto] : > >> >> Danko pro la informo. >>= >> La problemo pri -aj- esas, ke me analizis lua defino da Dyer, e me >> k= omparis lu a ta da la Kompleta Gramatiko, e me trovis *nula difero*. Ka >> = lua uzo reale chanjis? >> >> Tua du idei bone explikas pro quo "aspirar" es= as transitiva dum ke >> "expirar" esas netransitiva. >> >> Itere, "expirajo= " esas en Dyer. >> >> GP >> >> 2017-01-14 6:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves= gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] >> : >> >>> = >>> >>> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >>> >>> La reguli pri la sufixo -aj, quale tu= savas, esas expozita en KGD, sat >>> detaloze, ed oli tote ne chanjis de l= ore. >>> >>> La vorto "bavajo", qua troveblas i.a. anke en la oficala Ido-d= icionario >>> (eroroze titulizita kom "Ido-vortaro") da Hans Cornioley (196= 5), definita >>> kom "salivo ekfluanta", teoriale ya postulas ke la verbo "= bavar" esez >>> transitiva od adminime mixita, vice "pure" netransitiva. Ta= men nia >>> vorto-libri prizentas ol kom netransitiva, forsan pro ke: 1) Ol= ordinare >>> judikesas kom netransitiva en nia fonto-lingui; 2) Ol esas ve= rbo nur >>> "un-objekta", t.e. on ne povas bavar altro kam bavajo. >>> >>> = Forsan existas altra opinioni od expliki plu bona. >>> >>> Gon=C3=A7alo >>>= >>> >>> >>> 2017-01-14 3:32 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail= .com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ye= n plusa problemo: >>>> >>>> Me lektas en plura fonti, olda or nova (Complet= e Manual, Dyer, Kompleta >>>> Gramatiko, Pesch), ke *-aj-* kun verbo netran= sitiva expresas *l'aganto* >>>> . >>>> >>>> Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che D= yer (cf. *bavar*, *drool*). >>>> >>>> Or, me lektas omnaloke ke "bavar" esa= s verbo netransitiva! Do on ne >>>> povas bavar *ulo*, ma *ulo* bavas! >>>>= >>>> Ma me trovas tala uzo pluraloke, mem en defini (Pesch): >>>> >>>> *sp= umo: 1.* Quaza moso qua naskas surface di liquido quan onu agitas, >>>> var= migas o qua fermentacas. *2.* *Bavajo* mosatra qua naskas ye la >>>> boko d= i ula animali kande li esas ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI >>>> >>>> Do= , ka la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "bavar", fakte, esas >>>> mi= xita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza? >>>> >>>> Kun kordiala saluti, = >>>> Gilles-Philippe >>>> >>>> 2017-01-13 21:52 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe M= orin : >>>> >>>>> Kara samideani, >>>>> Quo esas la dif= ero inter -aj- ante 1925 e -aj- pos 1925? >>>>> >>>>> Kun kordiala saluti, = >>>>> Gilles-Philippe >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > --001a1142bac4a96a7a054618d88e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


--001a11411f5eeff1a80546225bf1-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4795 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 63368 invoked by uid 102); 15 Jan 2017 13:55:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2017 13:55:26 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 18585 invoked from network); 15 Jan 2017 13:55:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2017 13:55:26 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: mcLLfvIWLDstptP.8Qh27f2NpAt5sevdXzpBWT7RS.0YqCwU WpackceG23ZYAPqwpeLyiG3XIJtu8AaYVdVKo8tDkTn3zIuWIxc3kZSHdpk7 DmR3X2xeSq63747gYpJr3b9vRhGTbEQAuooe1Sq1VAq4eOIdbZZ2WRzp7BpF Y3Kx3OSrmU431wa1ltseMLCIPoe3ljZVrhr9PqMAIzj8Zo.Vnq7M.XRqq7Be ghzET5cl7jYKEsE_UIoJijFUgpENjbF8m.6s6MigsNf9zKnb_DM7YpSVrbvG jpR56vyhQf0boQjkcrXWwDxibf773xis_xt74OkWHPfYf5BKV_aJTv9sUIwR X81phhJkoQqQt8jEUFMm86.zPv3lp6hA6lIMFrPqDxGqj0d5p6mPaEaJQTSL ttVvZ_Nh0klzL6tBF2PwWmB8zvrOgKcpQ6AHNy4el9cj8zXimTLVMlSPqTu9 V3NdIRnXK4sgE8WxsCSPxjburVGu79PCuXNB52SNgQc5R1MmAuooX6lmt1iP .9g2AfKVPTYA2fOujn9vZhivKvgcXPv2_UbiaNUJJ6bCSWDeSCf860Z0D8J0 l84eGoIdTzng_QMwqiSxvJKsD_H0B7vvkbCHvgAAwrYU1XdyxCbtMBha2.b_ Q_5Cf_XfkmWh1nYUuxbHf_C3gmGsN8OXIRa0SzEcKOO47uJt7ruHVanQBG36 lfwl4klhZSdkuyJHVyiGtLASL7jrKeTPPvlLusWmMyeiNzKAr0dIPfKUNeJk 7IoWqZFDrZ_Ybp6_0yqHo4U.LGJy4rTw5ZWnT1Gu_cwo8hvW2bW8smTkZ8xS RcI1KppgEd3NoGg1Rn4hfcSGF.WppBqPXkC5d4LdKdI_wNbM8fzLsyXs9rQO _YPQEHwsBZzRDzupLikuxFefgKn3RdsjS0v__12BvBNOOlXmETB1OkzAlNSV spcDRFHpQFzbZUTs3quKSWHtwqSm2Me.XGz77tJsefD8zaW.FhjU0XwB08bO 178DVvDJ2sFIv_wyfmg1DtmhIxRTyg0bghLhQ4e6Qu6EqMlpoTFPYzHQnNuJ gE6hMyFBezHq8LX0B6z1cEJSy9sdzNEBvVTRnd55LA5uuB.Wwy96epzMuoTB liRwKdZQpxjLZgt5plSRLpfNPibKxNMsGPmbzSV6HydfY9bJg2nouHWLq6FP 2wIGr6IXn5O9Jm5Q1ojY3qPtPD9UvVnaL9yFvzr5oqTmp7loRCc2VTaSGzvV w.WLTVFmbLae7wz.9ec9Imn7cNbTYgIwSu6lbS3A1F9kkmK.C6viAWlrelqF EO73_u5pMjduJvHSY._b2E9b44DlETt4G5FmP62uUkA7igvSjnFzLt0_tcQG FatCGD8qq1XyOYMr7MSYPMqC5CsN4eKZ7kHIq09Gl_U2kBV3SDMIS5m2OupY 770nMQ_6pB_FDsMs2MTXAMhB.tsbQ7Z_A5yIpQnZi8DpLP53t06QoXT0EkaL 3ncsSTze1RQDBcZpdj1amwjbtJcS02Ry0PHhsAIjZsrTZ68udWRcFXyo7QEI GyGLRg1Rh187mAeo.D29QfUMppspCzNMxG_7oyPro9HV3ILu0HMnfgVupn4x qamVD9yPCnXLFHS25_XAcwDmTfHz Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f50.google.com) (209.85.215.50) by mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 13:55:26 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f50.google.com with SMTP id v186so65899113lfa.1 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 05:55:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=O00Z06So51YdAiv+OENy/nbpT8pyQuWT8wCqjYbFBcI=; b=BMm3LwDglkQsJEQNb4BETFXdd0oiYoD/yexkTOxwRB2lY4bJUDhLJq8dK4KOPuRK/z B2x2qFfHPZ43fzBeKhBwNfjv8ll4LHF2ffI4bZP/jt6cX53t2iyEbG0Z8dlnMdFxpYoK qJ45qH9iFvc48+S6HeQT30jMcZMPIHzZju/BvUPznj1EPyOkSVWvj4bhz0TtCReUIASz h3CtNyMELjGiRydv9yuYcet1ozifBeGFO8xejwXZwTDxNgcDCtFaDhdoCdiNYbaO5HQj nb3Eqe97yphzwWE6E1QM3+AJ9GiZv6JhjS78dc21p9KgxNgbyOAEDFTTG57t83kWPUDV YBvA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLM9JT04q9cRbhPi80xO+qkjaKTtWIhSTTqv+6qqet0kug6UtnYruBceOpV5JaWYj6pTB/xRsfT/2n0Yg== X-Received: by 10.25.39.4 with SMTP id n4mr3737563lfn.0.1484488524843; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 05:55:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 05:55:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:55:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114024c43252c50546226b85 Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114024c43252c50546226b85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kun plezuro! Regretinde, la Interreto ne esas panaceo... Libri e verki ne f= alas de la cielo. Uladie me atingos la limito di mea kapablesi. Ma dum ke m= e povas trovar libri enreta interesanta, me durez! 2017-01-14 5:51 GMT-05:= 00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoog= roups.com>: > > > Danko pro tua demarshi! > > 2017-01-14 0:11 GMT+00:00 Gi= lles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Plezure! >> >> Me sendis retpostalo a la Biblioth=C3= =A8que municipale de Lyon ed a Google por >> la *Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais= -international* (1908). Lu skanesis* da ci en >> 2013. Regretinde, la *Dict= ionnaire international-fran=C3=A7ais* ne (ja) >> skanesas*. Malgre to, hava= r la parto Franco-Ido esus, meajudike, plu bona >> kam havar nulo. >> >> Ca= die, me recevis retpostalo da Google: li aceptis mea demando publikigar >> = la dicionario Ido-English da Dyer en Google Books. >> >> Yen lu: https://bo= oks.google.ca/books?id=3DHS0PAAAAQAAJ&printsec=3Dfrontcover >> >> Kun kordi= ala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >>> >>> Danko pro la inf= ormo! >>> >>> Gon=C3=A7alo >>> >>> 2017-01-13 12:30 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philip= pe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] = : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, >>>> Yen plusa eroro en mea preante= a mesajo: >>>> >>>> 1908, English-International >>>> mujar =3D vento, maro = (cf. roar) >>>> >>>> Me ya de longe trovis skanita* versiono di ta dicionar= ii (da Google) en >>>> la Interreto. Nu, me ja plurfoye mencionis li en mea= blog-artikli... >>>> >>>> International-English >>>> https://archive.org/d= etails/internationalen00jespgoog >>>> >>>> English-International >>>> https= ://archive.org/details/englishinternati00beaurich >>>> >>>> Regretinde, man= kas en Int'l-English la komenco di la prefaco da >>>> Jespersen. >>>> >>>> = Me duras serchar International-Fran=C3=A7ais e Fran=C3=A7ais-International.= >>>> >>> >>> >> > > --001a114024c43252c50546226b85 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kun plezuro! Regretinde, la Interreto ne esas panaceo... L= ibri e verki ne falas de la cielo. Uladie me atingos la limito di mea kapab= lesi. Ma dum ke me povas trovar libri enreta interesanta, me durez!

2017-01-14 5:51 GMT= -05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gm= ail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Danko pro tua demarshi!

2= 017-01-14 0:11 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Plezure!

Me sendis retpostalo a la Biblioth=C3=A8q= ue municipale de Lyon ed a Google por la Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-inte= rnational (1908). Lu skanesis* da ci en 2013. Regretinde, la Diction= naire international-fran=C3=A7ais=C2=A0ne (ja) skanesas*. Malgre to, ha= var la parto Franco-Ido esus, meajudike, plu bona kam havar nulo.

Cadie, me recevis retpostalo da Google: li aceptis mea dema= ndo publikigar la dicionario Ido-English da Dyer en Google Books.


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [l= inguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Kara = Gilles-Philippe,

Danko pro la informo!

Gon=C3=A7a= lo

2017-01-13 12:30 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto= ] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2= =A0
=

Kara Gon= =C3=A7alo,
Yen plusa eroro en mea preantea mes= ajo:

1908, Engli= sh-International
mujar =3D vento, maro (cf. ro= ar)

Me ya de lon= ge trovis skanita* versiono di ta dicionarii (da Google) en la Interreto. N= u, me ja plurfoye mencionis li en mea blog-artikli...

International-English
https://archive.org/detail= s/internationalen00jespgoog

English-International
https://archive.org/details/englishi= nternati00beaurich

Regretinde, mankas en Int'l-English la komenco di la prefaco da = Jespersen.

Me du= ras serchar International-Fran=C3=A7ais e Fran=C3=A7ais-International.
<= /div>


=
=


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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114015e2572b9b0546228182 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bone, danko pro la helpo. "Retro" importas plue a me kam "mujar". Me vart= as tua artiklo... qua devus publikeskar kande? On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:1= 5 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > La temo pri "retro" es= as kelke komplexa (quankam min komplexa kam olta pri > "mujar), do me prefe= ras respondizar tua questiono (advere, tua questioni!) > per aparta artiklo= balde publikigota en mea linguala blogo. Ica artiklo > publikigesos ante o= lta pri "mujar" (di qua la temo postulas plu longa > exploro). > > Kordiale= , > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > > > 2017-01-14 19:49 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >= > >> Kara samideani, >> Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro: >> https:/= /io.wiktionary.org/wiki/retro >> >> Lu deskriptas "retro" quale vorto e "re= troe" kom sua derivajo. >> >> Me anke trovis "retr-o" che Dyer (cf. *retro= *) e "retroe" (cf. >> *backwards*): >> >> *retr-o:* (*adv.*) backwards. =E2= =80=94 L >> >> *backward(s):* dope, retro-e; (*with movements*) ad-dope; ko= ntre-sinsa; >> [e.c.] >> >> Or, la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" esa= s olima imprimeroro: >> >> "Retroe (komp. *troe*) trovesas en 'Dictionnaire= Francais-Ido', p. 463: >> *reculons* (*=C3=A0*), retroe, e 2 linei plu sup= re on devas lektar anke >> *retroe* por 'en reculant', vice *retro qua esas= imprimeroro*." >> >> Pluse, la "retr-o" di Dyer certe esas eroro nam on ne= povas derivar >> adverbo de adverbo... >> >> Do, me havas kelka questioni.= >> >> (1) Ka "retro" kom vorto existas ed esas oficala? >> (2) Ka "retroe"= esas quale "ankore", "anke", e.c., t.e. adverbi sen >> radiko? >> (3) Se (= 2) esas vera, pro quo certena dicionarii skribas *retro-e* dum >> ke li skr= ibas *ankore*, *anke*, e.c.? >> (4) Pro quo la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke = "retro" esas *prepoziciono*? >> >> 100. =E2=80=94 La *prepozicioni* formaca= s derivaji (per -a, -e, -o) se la >> signifiko lo permisas (25). Ex.: avana= , avane, avano; dopa, dope, dopo >> (26); apuda, apude; cisa, cise; transa,= transe; fora, fore; proxima, >> proxime; suba, sube; sura, sure; supera, s= upere; extera, extere; dume; >> antea, antee; kontrea, kontree; *retroa*, *= retroe*, e.c. >> >> (5) Se "retro" esas ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? = "On arestis la >> homo pro ke lu vehis retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on povu= s dicar "On >> arestis la homo pro ke lu retrovehis la cirkulado." ??? >> (= 6) Ka "retroe" expresas direciono o movo? Nam Dyer sugestas "saltar >> ad-a= vane" e "saltar retro" dum ke Pesch skribas "ad-retroe" (cf. >> *repulsar*)= ! >> >> Perplexe questionante, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> > > --001a114015e2572b9b0546228182 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bone, danko pro la helpo.

"Retro&q= uot; importas plue a me kam "mujar".

Me = vartas tua artiklo... qua devus publikeskar kande?

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:15 A= M, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.= com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gilles-Ph= ilippe,

La temo pri "retro" esas kelke komplexa (quankam = min komplexa kam olta pri "mujar), do me preferas respondizar tua ques= tiono (advere, tua questioni!) per aparta artiklo balde publikigota en mea = linguala blogo. Ica artiklo publikigesos ante olta pri "mujar" (d= i qua la temo postulas plu longa exploro).

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo




2017-01-14 19:49 GMT+00:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
=C2=A0

Kara samideani,
Me trovis= la yena pagino en Wikivortaro:

Lu deskriptas "retro" quale vor= to e "retroe" kom sua derivajo.

Me anke = trovis "retr-o" =C2=A0che Dyer (cf. retro) e "retroe&= quot; (cf. backwards):

retr-o: (a= dv.) backwards. =E2=80=94 L

backward(s)= : dope, retro-e; (with movements) ad-dope; kontre-sinsa; =C2=A0[= e.c.]

Or, la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "= ;retro" esas olima imprimeroro:

"Re= troe (komp. troe) trovesas en 'Dictionnaire Francais-Ido', p= . 463: reculons (=C3=A0), retroe, e 2 linei plu supre on deva= s lektar anke retroe por 'en reculant', vice retro= qua esas imprimeroro."

Pluse, la &= quot;retr-o" di Dyer certe esas eroro nam on ne povas derivar adverbo = de adverbo...

Do, me havas kelka questioni.
<= div>
(1) Ka "retro" kom vorto existas ed esas ofica= la?
(2) Ka "retroe" esas quale "ankore", &quo= t;anke", e.c., t.e. adverbi sen radiko?
(3) Se (2) esas vera= , pro quo certena dicionarii skribas retro-e dum ke li skribas=C2=A0= ankore, anke, e.c.?
(4) Pro quo la Kompleta Gramati= ko dicas ke "retro" esas prepoziciono?

100. =E2=80=94 La prepozicioni formacas derivaji (per -a,= -e, -o) se la signifiko lo permisas (25). Ex.: avana, avane, avano; dopa, = dope, dopo (26); apuda, apude; cisa, cise; transa, transe; fora, fore; prox= ima, proxime; suba, sube; sura, sure; supera, supere; extera, extere; dume;= antea, antee; kontrea, kontree; retroa, retroe, e.c.

(5) Se "retro" esas ya prepoziciono, qual= e on uzez lu? "On arestis la homo pro ke lu vehis retro la cirkulado.&= quot; Ma tale on povus dicar "On arestis la homo pro ke lu retrovehis = la cirkulado." ???
(6) Ka "retroe" expresas direci= ono o movo? Nam Dyer sugestas "saltar ad-avane" e "saltar re= tro" dum ke Pesch skribas "ad-retroe" (cf. repulsar)!=

Perplexe questionante,
Gilles-Philippe<= /div>


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Ne obsoleta en la Angla od Italiana. A aeroplane [Br.], airplane [Us.] F avion G Flugzeug, Aeroplan (Grek: aeroplano) H avión I aeroplano (Port avião) R samol(y)et, aeroplan ------- Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Fri, 13 Jan 2017 20:01:11 -0500: Obsoleta, to esas en la linguo originala. 'Aeroplano' devenas la Franca 'aéroplane' qua nun esas obsoleta (de pos la duesma mondmilito, me kredas). Nun ni uzas 'avion' en la Franca. To forsan esas pro quo ni nun havas 'aviono'. ... ... 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'Aeroplano' devenas la Franca > 'a=C3=A9roplane' = qua nun esas obsoleta (de pos la duesma mondmilito, me kredas). > Nun ni uz= as 'avion' en la Franca. To forsan esas pro quo ni nun havas > 'aviono'. > = > ... ... [e cetere] > > --94eb2c1cd53e0d9ae20546239ccf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bone, bone.

2017-01-15 10:05 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_2811918190274612ygrp-msg">

Ne obsoleta en la Angla od Italiana.
=
A aeroplane [Br.], airplane [Us.]
F avion
G Flugzeug, Aeroplan=
(Grek: aeroplano)
H avi=C3=B3n
I aeroplano
(Port avi=C3=A3= o)
R samol(y)et, aeroplan

-------

Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.c= om [linguolisto] - Fri, 13 Jan 2017 20:01:11 -0500:
Obsoleta, to esas en la linguo originala. 'Aeroplano' devenas la= Franca 'a=C3=A9roplane' qua nun esas obsoleta (de pos la duesma mo= ndmilito, me kredas). Nun ni uzas 'avion' en la Franca. To forsan e= sas pro quo ni nun havas 'aviono'.

 ... ... [e ceter= e]


--94eb2c1cd53e0d9ae20546239ccf-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4799 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 8107 invoked by uid 102); 15 Jan 2017 16:22:07 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m12.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2017 16:22:07 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 26710 invoked from network); 15 Jan 2017 16:22:07 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.81) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2017 16:22:07 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.41 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 6Zpurk4WLDujUiDF4Tbyz0zSMwq0TRjBYgb0xU67fGOIlObd la1DfC4rXU5qw9XNKwW7e7ZN7Vn20Y4TjHDdiAC3P9KT45RlJ9hdlKD3_BYu ReJ1dEBBEa0pPRgOV1F8ZkNA6pfnCtMW1AZWIQ9OpXR5bZz41j2AVeEuU6TZ l6cLg0Fa7JfAFDeGKCK8Jo9oAZwcZJgf7JPtflZ.wMAeCfxLOT5s4Mbiv3Ap TA0KvQpCS3gAHUuKoTTbTwUmfQN5juBvxXcKQEn5ehwrh7wDUmOyItuuUVKK jHkv31LOOGNA2MRMuZa76ZmcNonLsrvfXBeBunzvTJHLCY9_GVIsYBgNHwVU vgM6nWy5IWvPskYrgKfbY.eB4nxrxrBlJFAnTnw8R5eb4XqU_Wbm5QM8Hc7R eZBqFbaHnmzcdRaLe5NaGTxabG93gdwhjFujCfZlGielqREMg7zUlHhoCKIm V3YVf6tqCR3RjeKu9JcVJiwPPJMLoEs0.rnq.Of80SZftcj03ggdZ0gr02V6 shYw9wV2_79nRaWj7.7Yh7QUen2dvblOg399YXgwrcsDzwNFLstPh2mkuBOr zFvuMOsrii.D_a47HELYcBcnl114Zv_3WmgdchG1W1AEqMh_BRNh5peMHHRp XloD_nTKFdq2xtIRA2vDrYm3LQzT3urO54dAfE4mw89Bl4fUz9HvuOsg9Luh ueEN8XyDr9IM0gi.nQQOzwYmZKpCvShwuMS8BSWpdfXPJkuQ3gEXtvaqVec5 IYQ8hPK.5QKK6ftMdpw5y9UOe64JpcVQQsYep1jHDh93JFGC1VUnXQJYGzWC Fqvjc6fpi.5Vqqpj9jR_4QmRLweSfvU5pqryh1hmqVPj_DWKo0QazBN9ocFa 8Lq4FoZYIzp_8Fq9h5iGpVleyyUagT9zeBy2hcAxMDRWuEjW7shFZpfTWIS7 yZInzf_aaaFWetYVo06MLFVe9WH1zF3.jNNMZZKmfSKaOKn57KrMfqlEyxma uuPTM_okqygmcZOAT5x_f4y8zNA.smsdp.x4YWqJG2WQh6deFul1jw2tu.BB Bdhz6qkM._V9YeoCLPVGuucbFtFjWejsJy8yzE7vjMgN6uQc0hUotHHeGdVI M40E.oamzO5uWribYXPMBJ7a3UcZu34AD8S6L0woeuhUCfEWYJy3HRBZdQGs 2nQyaQKJjI6852Lj9CHLGaL1z5VvgZw3b7fdwoXTIO3X7jzq8Aexgi7mAHlO Xid8EHcAqXHN3PTPiXjKRqBjHU06WysdcqMwWtrqXM7W8EjhUjfML3RevJa1 h7S6KgnoWcg4SSWJsRxcvQO9zGtNfxtUjmzLNTv87ArFRQ3BpKYIMet34yA2 mxY1vtg35i5Kw9uh.veWP48eAjge7adv_C1PWcylIbkc8ek97tSISi7DQL9x gEk3LQv8OWpFkQS9AJXYFpl8fdfMENkyeqj5Q4AGcEzcZWKJ0pe_an9kUPcY BF37E9Wej5H_MoWCggwIcNnRINdhE1c8XByaavwCdNwLOAGkRWJl0qQiSnUK 6JdLVOflbIpLhgHoBsCE.xY.BCfiGBzyt2abP4431bqF.3gJvmfpvX86.qtH eChUoyzMyGZFUNbLNN.Uq4prb10BuY4- Authentication-Results: mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f41.google.com) (209.85.215.41) by mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:22:06 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f41.google.com with SMTP id m78so67056770lfg.2 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:22:06 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ZofqMDEUuElRSQsx2NJ9D9afNOVTbwUffG34G01J7oc=; b=aDSL4YpIA7rnPv+28zuHHyZopLKDq0KStWJogtQ/GRC7clBfxVpCLnFuAiGlpzyK7R ojWThOwSkhvSTsk7ZdLqxip2FlhvVMwCXQHM6JZRVB9ToGc5Hm8FINN42wo2/Q3myduH hOHPLMlWjeZv3gB/PQdbIzn1GomomPODPO3lisc2enD4dco7DmCyuzhPhsikhWaZGg3C afM0i50gNUiVaMFEzHpaDMzr1I/v14gIYvgn0TXjliDWQ7Y9FQdD24xzrLt3BYeN7VRR R57ZtcKbF8srFBzdGi3Kg9aUrkv3VFLQpKxlt/1ZX0Z1W2XIFm/+Knu9a3QDQPC46NYZ uujA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJqlqlvSmEuwWZQqRPF86OxN0rV5FoXzIYEoBN8c3arJjHe4EsQVrzktUANGyEO4MRQolGn8U/SQ7E50w== X-Received: by 10.25.16.28 with SMTP id f28mr11518520lfi.89.1484497324847; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:22:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 08:22:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2017 11:22:04 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f8fa4b7b76e05462477e2 Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: Pri "champiniono", "malyoto" e la litero "y" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113f8fa4b7b76e05462477e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yen ke me trovis plusa problemala vorto: *miniona*, qua venas de la Franca= "mignon" e "mignonne" (komparez a *konyako* (cognac), *oniono* (ognon), *= ponyeto* (poignet), *vinyeto* (vignette), e.c.) https://bovino-lakto.rhclo= ud.com/pri-y/ On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin wrote: > Me adjuntis "poliomielito" a mea artiklo: > https= ://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/pri-y/ > > Yes, *cianogeno esus justa vorto. Nu= lo impedus ni facar tala chanjo. > > Gilles-Philippe > > 2017-01-10 12:55 G= MT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.= com>: > >> >> >> Ho, yes! Anke me pripensabis ta vorto: poliomielito. Tote = normal, segun >> me. >> E relate "ciano", forsan esus posibla preferar ed u= zar sempre "cianogeno" >> (e "cianogena"), ma konservar, tal qual, la ceter= a vorti relatanta: >> cianido, edc. To permisus a ni la koloro "ciana" o lo= cian-kolora. (Me anke >> preferus uzar la formi "oxigeno, hidrogeno, nit= rogeno", edc., kam le plu >> kurta, se por nur ta elementi) >> >> (Partaka= ) >> >> >> > > --001a113f8fa4b7b76e05462477e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yen ke me trovis plusa problemala vorto:

miniona, qua venas de la Franca "mignon" e "mignonn= e"

(komparez a konyako=C2=A0(cognac), = oniono=C2=A0(ognon), ponyeto=C2=A0(poignet), vinyeto= =C2=A0(vignette), e.c.)


On Sat,= Jan 14, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Me adju= ntis "poliomielito" a mea artiklo:

Yes, *cianogeno esus justa v= orto. Nulo impedus ni facar tala chanjo.

Gilles-Philippe

=
2017-01-10 12:55 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguo= listo] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Ho, yes! Anke me pripensabis ta vorto: poliomielito. Tote normal, = segun me.=C2=A0

E relate &quo= t;ciano", forsan esus posibla preferar ed uzar sempre "cianogeno&= quot; (e "cianogena"), ma konservar, tal qual, la cetera vorti re= latanta: cianido, edc. To permisus a ni la koloro "ciana" o lo ci= an-kolora. (Me anke preferus uzar la formi =C2=A0 "oxigeno, hidrogeno,= nitrogeno", edc., kam le plu kurta, se por nur ta elementi)=C2=A0

=C2=A0(Partaka)=C2=A0

=

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Nulo impedus ni facar tala chanjo.= >> >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> 2017-01-10 12:55 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yaho= o.es [linguolisto] < >> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >>> >>> >>> Ho, ye= s! Anke me pripensabis ta vorto: poliomielito. Tote normal, segun >>> me. >= >> E relate "ciano", forsan esus posibla preferar ed uzar sempre >>> "ciano= geno" (e "cianogena"), ma konservar, tal qual, la cetera vorti >>> relatant= a: cianido, edc. To permisus a ni la koloro "ciana" o lo >>> cian-kolora. (= Me anke preferus uzar la formi "oxigeno, hidrogeno, >>> nitrogeno", edc.,= kam le plu kurta, se por nur ta elementi) >>> >>> (Partaka) >>> >>> >>> = >> >> > --001a114015e2ee8c5f0546247871 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
onyono*
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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --94eb2c1cb94abddeef054626d7f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pos lektir Dr-o Max Talmey, me kredras respondir a mea questioni. (1) Ka "= retro" kom vorto existas ed esas oficala? Yes, "retro" existas. On trovas l= u che Dyer (1924), en la Kompleta Gramatiko (1925), che Talmey (1919), ed a= nke en la Complete Manual (1919). (2) Ka "retroe" esas quale "ankore", "ank= e", e.c., t.e. adverbi sen radiko? Nu, "retro" esas neseparebla tale quale = omna adverbi qui ne finas per -e: min, plus, e.c. (ecepto a ta regulo, segu= n Talmey: "tre"). "retr-o" che Dyer certe esas eroro, nam lu ne esas substa= ntivo. "retroe" derivesas de "retro" per adjunto di "e": *retro-e*. (3) Se = (2) esas vera, pro quo certena dicionarii skribas *retro-e* dum ke li skrib= as *ankore*, *anke*, e.c.? *retro-e* esas justa (videz [2]) ma *retr-o* esa= s eroro, tale quale "ego" che Dyer. (4) Pro quo la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas= ke "retro" esas *prepoziciono*? To esas eroro. Segun Dyer, Talmey, la Comp= lete Manual e mem la Kompleta Gramatiko ipsa, "retro" esas adverbo qua sign= ifikas "backwards". (5) Se "retro" esas ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? = "On arestis la homo pro ke lu vehis retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on povus d= icar "On arestis la homo pro ke lu retrovehis la cirkulado." ??? "retro" es= as adverbo. "retroe" anke esas adverbo. (6) Ka "retroe" expresas direciono = o movo? Nam Dyer sugestas "saltar ad-avane" e "saltar retro" dum ke Pesch s= kribas "ad-retroe" (cf. *repulsar* )! Segun Dyer e Talmey, "retro" signifik= as "backwards" (movo, quale "ad") dum ke, segun Pesch, "retroe" signifikas = direciono (quale "vers"). On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Gilles-Philippe= Morin wrote: > Bone, danko pro la helpo. > > "Retro"= importas plue a me kam "mujar". > > Me vartas tua artiklo... qua devus pub= likeskar kande? > > On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:15 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gne= ves64@gmail.com > [linguolisto] wrote: > >> >= > >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> La temo pri "retro" esas kelke komplexa (q= uankam min komplexa kam olta >> pri "mujar), do me preferas respondizar tua= questiono (advere, tua >> questioni!) per aparta artiklo balde publikigota= en mea linguala blogo. Ica >> artiklo publikigesos ante olta pri "mujar" (= di qua la temo postulas plu >> longa exploro). >> >> Kordiale, >> >> Gon=C3= =A7alo >> >> >> >> >> 2017-01-14 19:49 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphm= orin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >= >> Kara samideani, >>> Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro: >>> https:/= /io.wiktionary.org/wiki/retro >>> >>> Lu deskriptas "retro" quale vorto e "= retroe" kom sua derivajo. >>> >>> Me anke trovis "retr-o" che Dyer (cf. *r= etro*) e "retroe" (cf. >>> *backwards*): >>> >>> *retr-o:* (*adv.*) backwar= ds. =E2=80=94 L >>> >>> *backward(s):* dope, retro-e; (*with movements*) ad= -dope; kontre-sinsa; >>> [e.c.] >>> >>> Or, la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke= "retro" esas olima imprimeroro: >>> >>> "Retroe (komp. *troe*) trovesas en= 'Dictionnaire Francais-Ido', p. 463: >>> *reculons* (*=C3=A0*), retroe, e = 2 linei plu supre on devas lektar anke >>> *retroe* por 'en reculant', vice= *retro qua esas imprimeroro*." >>> >>> Pluse, la "retr-o" di Dyer certe es= as eroro nam on ne povas derivar >>> adverbo de adverbo... >>> >>> Do, me h= avas kelka questioni. >>> >>> (1) Ka "retro" kom vorto existas ed esas ofic= ala? >>> (2) Ka "retroe" esas quale "ankore", "anke", e.c., t.e. adverbi se= n >>> radiko? >>> (3) Se (2) esas vera, pro quo certena dicionarii skribas = *retro-e* dum >>> ke li skribas *ankore*, *anke*, e.c.? >>> (4) Pro quo la = Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" esas *prepoziciono*? >>> >>> 100. =E2= =80=94 La *prepozicioni* formacas derivaji (per -a, -e, -o) se la >>> signi= fiko lo permisas (25). Ex.: avana, avane, avano; dopa, dope, dopo >>> (26);= apuda, apude; cisa, cise; transa, transe; fora, fore; proxima, >>> proxime= ; suba, sube; sura, sure; supera, supere; extera, extere; dume; >>> antea, = antee; kontrea, kontree; *retroa*, *retroe*, e.c. >>> >>> (5) Se "retro" es= as ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? "On arestis la >>> homo pro ke lu veh= is retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on povus dicar "On >>> arestis la homo pro = ke lu retrovehis la cirkulado." ??? >>> (6) Ka "retroe" expresas direciono = o movo? Nam Dyer sugestas "saltar >>> ad-avane" e "saltar retro" dum ke Pes= ch skribas "ad-retroe" (cf. >>> *repulsar*)! >>> >>> Perplexe questionante,= >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> >>> >> >> > > --94eb2c1cb94abddeef054626d7f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 11:22 AM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <gph= morin@gmail.com> wrote:
Yen ke me trovis plusa problemala vorto:

<= i>miniona, qua venas de la Franca "mignon" e "mignonne&q= uot;

(komparez a konyako=C2=A0(cognac), = oniono=C2=A0(ognon), ponyeto=C2=A0(poignet), vinyeto=C2= =A0(vignette), e.c.)


On Sat, Jan 14, 2017 a= t 8:04 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote= :

= 2017-01-10 12:55 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] &l= t;linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Ho, yes! Anke me pripensabis t= a vorto: poliomielito. Tote normal, segun me.=C2=A0

E relate "ciano", forsan esus posibla pref= erar ed uzar sempre "cianogeno" (e "cianogena"), ma kon= servar, tal qual, la cetera vorti relatanta: cianido, edc. To permisus a ni= la koloro "ciana" o lo cian-kolora. (Me anke preferus uzar la fo= rmi =C2=A0 "oxigeno, hidrogeno, nitrogeno", edc., kam le plu kurt= a, se por nur ta elementi)=C2=A0

=C2=A0(Partaka)= =C2=A0




Pos lektir Dr-o Max Talmey, me kredras respondir a mea que= stioni.

(1) Ka "ret= ro" kom vorto existas ed esas oficala?
Yes, "retro" existas. On trovas lu che Dyer (1924), en la K= ompleta Gramatiko (1925), che Talmey (1919), ed anke en la Complete Manual = (1919).
(2) Ka "retroe" esas= quale "ankore", "anke", e.c., t.e. adverbi sen radiko?=
Nu, "retro" esas neseparebl= a tale quale omna adverbi qui ne finas per -e: min, plus, e.c. (ecepto a ta= regulo, segun Talmey: "tre"). "retr-o" che Dyer certe = esas eroro, nam lu ne esas substantivo. "retroe" derivesas de &qu= ot;retro" per adjunto di "e": retro-e.
(3) Se (2) esas vera, pro quo certena dicionarii skr= ibas=C2=A0retro-e=C2=A0dum ke li skribas=C2=A0ankore,=C2=A0anke, e.c.?
retro-e=C2=A0e= sas justa (videz [2]) ma retr-o=C2=A0esas eroro, tale quale "eg= o" che Dyer.
(4) Pro quo la Kompl= eta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" esas=C2=A0prepoziciono?
To esas eroro. Segun Dyer, Talmey, la Com= plete Manual e mem la Kompleta Gramatiko ipsa, "retro" esas adver= bo qua signifikas "backwards".
(5) Se "retro" esas ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? "O= n arestis la homo pro ke lu vehis retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on povu= s dicar "On arestis la homo pro ke lu retrovehis la cirkulado." ?= ??
"retro" esas adverbo. &qu= ot;retroe" anke esas adverbo.
(6)= Ka "retroe" expresas direciono o movo? Nam Dyer sugestas "s= altar ad-avane" e "saltar retro" dum ke Pesch skribas "= ad-retroe" (cf.=C2=A0repulsar)!
Segun Dyer e Ta= lmey, "retro" signifikas "backwards" (movo, quale "= ;ad") dum ke, segun Pesch, "retroe" signifikas direciono (qu= ale "vers").

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <= gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Bone, danko pro la helpo.

"Retro&q= uot; importas plue a me kam "mujar".

Me = vartas tua artiklo... qua devus publikeskar kande?

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:15 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

=
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

La temo pri &= quot;retro" esas kelke komplexa (quankam min komplexa kam olta pri &qu= ot;mujar), do me preferas respondizar tua questiono (advere, tua questioni!= ) per aparta artiklo balde publikigota en mea linguala blogo. Ica artiklo p= ublikigesos ante olta pri "mujar" (di qua la temo postulas plu lo= nga exploro).

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo




2017-01-14 19:49 GMT+00:00 Gilles-P= hilippe Morin gphmo= rin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >:
=C2=A0
=

Kara samideani,
Me trovis la yena pagino en W= ikivortaro:
<= br>
Lu deskriptas "retro" quale vorto e "retroe&qu= ot; kom sua derivajo.

Me anke trovis "retr-o&= quot; =C2=A0che Dyer (cf. retro) e "retroe" (cf. backwa= rds):

retr-o: (adv.) backwards. = =E2=80=94 L

backward(s): dope, retro-e;= (with movements) ad-dope; kontre-sinsa; =C2=A0[e.c.]
=
Or, la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" esas ol= ima imprimeroro:

"Retroe (komp. troe<= /i>) trovesas en 'Dictionnaire Francais-Ido', p. 463: reculons (=C3=A0), retroe, e 2 linei plu supre on devas lektar anke ret= roe por 'en reculant', vice retro qua esas imprimeror= o."

Pluse, la "retr-o" di= Dyer certe esas eroro nam on ne povas derivar adverbo de adverbo...
<= div>
Do, me havas kelka questioni.

(= 1) Ka "retro" kom vorto existas ed esas oficala?
(2) Ka= "retroe" esas quale "ankore", "anke", e.c., = t.e. adverbi sen radiko?
(3) Se (2) esas vera, pro quo certena di= cionarii skribas retro-e dum ke li skribas=C2=A0ankore, an= ke, e.c.?
(4) Pro quo la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "re= tro" esas prepoziciono?

100. =E2= =80=94 La prepozicioni formacas derivaji (per -a, -e, -o) se la sign= ifiko lo permisas (25). Ex.: avana, avane, avano; dopa, dope, dopo (26); ap= uda, apude; cisa, cise; transa, transe; fora, fore; proxima, proxime; suba,= sube; sura, sure; supera, supere; extera, extere; dume; antea, antee; kont= rea, kontree; retroa, retroe, e.c.

=
(5) Se "retro" esas ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? "= ;On arestis la homo pro ke lu vehis retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on po= vus dicar "On arestis la homo pro ke lu retrovehis la cirkulado."= ???
(6) Ka "retroe" expresas direciono o movo? Nam Dye= r sugestas "saltar ad-avane" e "saltar retro" dum ke Pe= sch skribas "ad-retroe" (cf. repulsar)!

Perplexe questionante,
Gilles-Philippe

=


<= /blockquote>
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La nura "derivo" semblas esar "ciana acido", quan cienc= ale on plu juste nomez *acido izocianika** (o *izociana**?). Me konsideras= cianid/o, malgre ke Dyer semblas uzir -id, -at, e.c., kom aparta radiko, n= am me vidas nula informo pri la oficaleso di tala ciencala sufixi. cian/o-= gen/o havus nula praktikala senco. GP On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 1:03 PM, qu= alevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: = > > > Tamen, oportus esar absolute certa, ne nur ke ni darfas uzar "cianoge= no" e > "cianogena" (vice "ciano" e "ciana"), ma anke ke tal uzo produktus = nula > konflikto che l' plura vorti derivita o relatanta la nuna "ciano": c= ianido, > edc. Se ni povos konstatar, ke esus advere nula konflikto ibe, ni= darfus > uzar "ciana" por la koloro. > > (Partaka) > > > --001a11411f5ea7825e05462946de Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, me analizis to. La nura "derivo" semblas esa= r "ciana acido", quan ciencale on plu juste nomez acido izocia= nika*=C2=A0(o izociana*?).

Me konsideras cian= id/o, malgre ke Dyer semblas uzir -id, -at, e.c., kom aparta radiko, nam me= vidas nula informo pri la oficaleso di tala ciencala sufixi.
cian/o-gen/o havus nula praktikala senco.

<= div>GP

On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 1:03 PM, qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Tamen, op= ortus esar absolute certa, ne nur ke ni darfas uzar "cianogeno" e= "cianogena" (vice "ciano" e "ciana"), ma ank= e ke tal uzo produktus nula konflikto che l' plura vorti derivita o rel= atanta la nuna "ciano": cianido, edc. Se ni povos konstatar, ke e= sus advere nula konflikto ibe, ni darfus uzar "ciana" por la kolo= ro.=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka) =C2=A0


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Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko= di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Fran= ca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vort= o por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar&quo= t;.

Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe
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Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:22:55 +0000 To: Linguolisto Thread-Topic: Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPrw== Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:22:55 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:51F06A383DD4C63E6EA1F2580E92E33C60E15EFD77AA27A4359324022B7CE25C;UpperCasedChecksum:3769ED77903D1EEA0BD55FB14CB7AF3EBCABB1B476C4C7DD19820D1931009FAF;SizeAsReceived:7455;Count:37 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [lDYiGBD/p69bn/6m/VZvxbuNatYmg3+T] x-incomingheadercount: 37 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR03HT057;7:tOzr8T3cxzx0yD2wykVVJFzej70RAoVvtWfLIVJydT+lH5tEHiPgr6Fkd46VcbQTAqfjQy/02JJG5xORzFfYbsCGeg4hMl56AUtwMbFAZ6DVqE6OQlNCm5vGbzEYhGVV1t0Qoc3blxGfNR06Tr7g5WZJAIQzqFoBNN5veHGlob1PLRdmwV+3yZih6KZaMJeprLnZqMdvSgRgARTS9lCBfLzwQv1WiSI4arsG9nVyzyo8ZCLbRsKrpyR4RQNFdM9aAZLcmx9EPlGvx2gumDWPclXsWwBWZPy0YKSOASz/1bCp31R6NTrS+4WTFkV7S6A3oTF8P7BRuiGVe5nasG0JmTIhecP7pLTOtM+1YT4CYxwd1trPtx1M4rrmAWhrbP/i5kKVbTfKIYx8K2Lpi85w7PUMX0NpHdPWs/IHxGGp3JsXDAzfh6auuGqgJ2YYAmm8LGeaW0qnkFNLjFZglfBXNg== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900003);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR03HT057;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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u=24528831; y=cks4OV__qCoRrA9qED4e9GLBgqq8bnenchzF0QSi7n8 X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB139761C7E602504D2D66E9899A47D0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me uzas Linguolisto por entamar diskuto. Unesma frazi bezonata: Clear st= yling. Posiblesi: Forigar stilizo, Forigar stilo, Eskartar stilizo, Eskart= ar stilo Strikethrough. Posiblesi: Surstreko, Surstrekizar, Trastreko, T= rastrekizar Predanko pro via helpo JC --_000_DB5PR03MB139761C7E602504D2D66E9899A47D0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Me uzas Linguolisto= por entamar diskuto.  Unesma frazi bezonata:


Clea= r styling.  Posiblesi: Forigar stilizo, Forigar stilo, Eskartar stiliz= o, Eskartar stilo


Strikethrough.  Posiblesi: Surst= reko, Surstrekizar, Trastreko, Trastrekizar



<= p>Predanko pro via helpo


JC

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On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 10:23 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
<= /div>
=
=C2=A0

Me uzas Linguolisto por entamar disk= uto.=C2=A0 Unesma frazi bezonata:


Clear styling.=C2=A0 Posiblesi: Fori= gar stilizo, Forigar stilo, Eskartar stilizo, Eskartar stilo


Striket= hrough.=C2=A0 Posiblesi: Surstreko, Surstrekizar, Trastreko, Trastrekizar



Predanko pro via h= elpo


JC

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Unesma frazi bezonata: > > > C= lear styling. Posiblesi: Forigar stilizo, Forigar stilo, Eskartar > stiliz= o, Eskartar stilo > > > Strikethrough. Posiblesi: Surstreko, Surstrekizar,= Trastreko, Trastrekizar > > > > Predanko pro via helpo > > > JC > > > --94eb2c1497b4f3aadb054639d1eb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Por la unesma, forsan: "ef= acar stilo".
<= br>
2017-01-16 15:22 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Me uz= as Linguolisto por entamar diskuto.=C2=A0 Unesma frazi bezonata:

Clear styling.=C2=A0 Posiblesi: Forigar stilizo, Forigar stilo, E= skartar stilizo, Eskartar stilo


Strikethrough.=C2=A0 Po= siblesi: Surstreko, Surstrekizar, Trastreko, Trastrekizar


=


Predanko pro via helpo


JC

=


--94eb2c1497b4f3aadb054639d1eb-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4809 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 6079 invoked by uid 102); 16 Jan 2017 18:05:07 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 18:05:07 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 1393 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2017 18:05:07 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 18:05:07 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: NWvZNOsWLDvqyF_fP2GXPgxKJvabONrKZuaLR83lrgmyJTXf CYQ8tHScpC6Ial7IXcPT7eHr3CaU6sJw9fOIYZBwsL5Ls_Yl6bnrZfxaOeVe AroiDiJz.5IQpTx1pXn4A7EpIcao27njmaQLgDQQN43i6YgjMaDj6ZI9B37S dnZvWoRatHspiAfGkLgVdfEWAS3u5ZjMVO_i.OyiRgqdX5VQ_NqIwWxTc4P0 mMed8TYhRX47et2cyk9Nx1RJPSfnKyM0_xIQcGk__FIPN2incg05zg5LRxEI vhRaOuQov.aTPnxKlBT2ovSzVclAZ7TyJeZMOUnnmy8Aoxo4ut_a_Dwag.UI 8bOhyOWAYD1W_AQowUOVfVUFWah9NpaRXfYfYGU5xtVLH3zoBOScmdm6oJOF YaVjLAgvHaGInTY8hPKlR5eR3cs2Zi053H5RWMj2FfWm3u5sSMpbygP.lntY 1kxsJXN2SJGypEIbsFNFSOV54282pF2gss.PZ5lWk7SmD7h0AjTYHMAezvWA zcIb297lC5DvRg.YWTozrCfeyZzqg751tj1nDRtxUVGOTT0uUm5F1e5ighhM tIuu96CHkfZwHDzuBhLfSmMRNI4fBK_ZM985IgQYQyVClbimeFMXsRhgxcp4 aAwjEeEo1M8WDIaQ1KV3zrnwULiMD3IOP9VFDOWkrsW4EygOkFVwAz_6Dnsx OxgST2goldPEKsZIiCSqC6OrW_EAVG95wMDMuc5XDoIx.HHtLHZ5eEz.zzPd RqwLhiTMkUrK3wTGq8u1GI7SU78xczh60_kmWWX.E.8sk88nP9_3OiR38jg2 8hm2xYgGznGu5rJeWCDElotW4e.Az4Y0_UswWiih.lqyxhS4OfOqC7U9sYF7 tmWr_9Oy.h0KoWryugEE7_PQMmzWevaZIVpHTyXeprrsNXx_TPtPtulEe.Bz bMkEIziiNCmhIH_rdq8_EKHaJp2OQkwQcZYz7cHfUIqn2j43.JEdu5Ecv8dg O8RDhG8b.eROMde2E6KIY9MV7QYH3rXVgoirZIxoHEK2xYh1ac3mzV1DBe1r rK_NuXygGI5MSX_oiXw4mgwr_m03WNlEe4Rk_LNT8elUex1H9aBlffklj4x2 lL39KpH20GpVgecFooXZYhYo.s19SjtUtxuI1.SxM6KjjlNIwsH0tk6t1iOR .6AlkrEdBM9fVmBSkjH1xMlAFrPKKpGNBHgOH5P1RIAG0LH9EmMHpnACRPvr ijSFcD7im6VL45C.PU5ti_j.VWjikYlQFIvbOPaDd8tCO_VGfMDJj0xWl23m MfIEtxMp2nA3DPAiqOt3ZmJAdZnV3RtnRKBOR50qa4sMz3rgNguYv5Z3VfnL Dw0stW1E_B1ucx.OVuu4.vgpw36b0XpvsJdY9TU_BvvEXI9oygytycS8Ssp9 TG5unL7MmUhF0.yHmjBCmwsd72dnaILceA65vZxXKU1WQtqZiklm7Xc0T88d FfZo0mYv7k4U1In_xm06lhK7e6i6uaDQJI3bDZZofE5Dg5SRCVLifvdd2h.6 CjTXUBzlCAxzHwbhRA4fCalFP.DCd9miaLxRSYkJFOq4IstdfhvmVmi3QEnh KrNxKw-- Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f48.google.com) (209.85.215.48) by mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 18:05:01 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f48.google.com with SMTP id n124so20991754lfd.2 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 10:05:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ogSvi4B+adT3zS9b8RjEQPjDSbtMOu+8uvuy+QVWB20=; b=lA4O0tG4V8FAinwHUK03ljv/CB5VfvC+cJ8TTycy8GV4CuX4H8sKrKO+HsUZKHRfIW rU7vADQ/6t34En6Uz8dAwLX7CEB8swUolDxBZPrHZGPXGzuHW4Ol4ix6SeufSoNKhbP9 2QRhmJ+Q+sDSQrCFq3OFSB/8KmNOZ+QvAi8653k4PQpM044QHpIYOX3dC7bFItaCFSC6 5vyHWZ+2QtjGRSofEYRyGhaIkF124bPjYnwB/SZsSvpSIppjmWvNh9IKtWix19DAsOtM 3ngiXjJ6rKiQjsjPw4tj3fZCh1q0GM3BCXrLmQ0vKPWSaCzwrVjakgM6KP9cWsM7PAQZ lutA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXL6KrXrFbWiygqhTZGyA3EU7jojNE9MBBF0K9Lx9fNoubeAuQJluElUq4zgf9yK3MieQQsntbnGx4V9vw== X-Received: by 10.46.7.1 with SMTP id 1mr13917353ljh.76.1484589512065; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:58:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:58:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:58:31 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec652810831054639eeaa Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: Pri "champiniono", "malyoto" e la litero "y" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec652810831054639eeaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To chanjas nulo: Cian-ato esus neposibla. Cian-hidro ne existas, nam la mi= tologiala hidro havas koloro inter bruna e nigra Ka hidro povas esar "ciana= "? Se lu esus planto, me povus plu facile respondizar to. Ma lu esas animal= o, do me ne savas. Ka to importas? Kande on adoptis "cianofila" e quo certi= gas to? (Dyer e Pesch eroris pri la naturo di "hidro"! En zoologio, hidro = nule esas serpento.) On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 11:33 AM, qualevistandas@yaho= o.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Tamen, per = vorti relatanta "cian", me referas ne nur a "cianido" e > "cian-acido", ma = anke a "cianato", "cianhidra", "cianofila" e forsan mem > plusa de li. Se t= o omna ne konfliktas nek esas ambigua relate "ciana" (kom > koloro), adavan= e! > > (Partaka) > > > --f403045ec652810831054639eeaa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To chanjas nulo:

Cian-ato esus neposibl= a.
Cian-hidro ne existas, nam la mitologiala hidro havas koloro i= nter bruna e nigra
Ka hidro povas esar "ciana"? Se lu e= sus planto, me povus plu facile respondizar to. Ma lu esas animalo, do me n= e savas. Ka to importas?
Kande on adoptis "cianofila" e= quo certigas to?

(Dyer e Pesch eroris pri la natu= ro di "hidro"! En zoologio, hidro nule esas serpento.)

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 a= t 11:33 AM, qu= alevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com> wrote:
=
= =C2=A0
=

Tamen, per vorti rela= tanta "cian", me referas ne nur a "cianido" e "cia= n-acido", ma anke a "cianato", "cianhidra", "= cianofila" e forsan mem plusa de li. Se to omna ne konfliktas nek esas= ambigua relate "ciana" (kom koloro), adavane!=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka)
>

=

--f403045ec652810831054639eeaa-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4810 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 31203 invoked by uid 102); 16 Jan 2017 18:07:25 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m8.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 18:07:25 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 14455 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2017 18:07:25 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 18:07:25 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: TSViC00WLDv1YXq1lpoP5Z5NJScbxpo5FTAK8dZsd_Fhg7Us NWrGKi.r7Uy3avWvmN5MmMvO_9RBVNoxVi2tLGA60fCVtGcV6rmejAnltHa_ uSyS2u7Um2HIEjqT9cy5DlnokxcYeOXKBiXFUFpff4TIspSKKDK4uRngPbw3 AYcK_1ukvdWcWsC59qk2nOigzUu7V0C0fyY8TE9A5oRg_6DyaoLzmYj96PFo 16iSLuO16k1dyftGGzglVsRLrA64KZ8f3mZd_qPr7QY_YkHM69EYgo9POTwm WkC1CD_jsPN8VNAupVe.uSRBQ3IE3wlIh2u5P9_sZ3xQnRxBTRSAT3bI28Vb QKApd0Q7rn3U3zfOWyCdHP4.T0X7RODFyxJdZWKClbtomAvGITaypO.zaz4O irsh4xUE5wpMX9R8qL0Wb24qXg1ox1YAosFCIyRsk0p0MKMCsZMSih9LzczO CGUZGcRlUV6J9Kmjr0SpFb1z017FBLiVbJVuXhVxFzPLMx5I9BTr4OHhr4jH T9ftqPOhVD9fMl3w0rDDWttF.U.XzJzT3BUaNajzymnW_m2yr8NfOreyQMXc 1sReq7oeTS1kAQQbqIe_u3hQ7lpY7Fecv0ys6z2Q_Q1jqHlAixshqLBVbUGP nAQUWicy9aEYb4NjMsiv_XWkxrLvrGtkzztx4E7MP_IHbAt7NO8ZcjIMbyyw lw6sh5fPR2YMIr.S7CDDWxMPlXnZVCoo5zJvDSCbLYTAE.HqvWF09O3RXLpG VjtUlLA6K.h.Bxu0OBkT28ea80rGxYYJNaorMBojLRZtzece3uTvjyB.J8L2 aC7MrDc.rHurFeJbPtORXoGuI9KBFXKl49VMcLPbDYX3PhG4I.36XUvGWJeW xhUrIjcXoj8sUYX16IQUrAc7reO3wTcD8J.UaIIpTgQu20Nokq.0x5h6KLFK fqXDQT_z2JcwI51QMsRZca3xFk0mLxtnDKquxN.TCf55tfW7P46UX2gUIhkq ps52w74ZrHmIJIt_BXU5aLW7zsUqXCmitcHqU.gBMvhyLs206goEPnUq.hXP ugO4lr6jnmUR0W5dUYbm02hXMKyest3rLLm21ODUywjUJ81SRZi8JbazkJsK Off810b1PQugFkJcdOOQSQ.YGX7lwoUQLlgDHr31eOkkTPpWv6bCtUZJUKsb 69mprKh.6AkDtHOBldDP7WkO5KOLM6bkjfD6wNIgPh1nU901RliwndF_mQfA ENbMedZqA7hQ50ISv42cxbU0YGGdKS0ZM55JRoItHO7cu8hCq57ynxxo0Je0 X_l94DHmp2kke3tTOOQ5cZjI5q6ax4ppKTWEnZ7X6vrLu0E7Pn27nvFrw6xQ tlmiuY3pCHm.QlX4C3RoMILPyKqC5qEq7Cz1vtaNbyIn4Vt0k8rR4DBf8TpQ 88ui8fnGL33J0yLco7eu4Yr7XF4AuoZ7I_auD48iC3NQrbjH3AMm9f.qLIP3 3esMBqKxc9r6S1sv3I2Y44EuhwZyhhQoyjVyD8nnvmr8IPCN3sRyje9ZtnGb nBPh1sRNMJvemKSZwjEuC9szW3w.uIMj42XT_z8_rmP9e8XSjc.ng44f4FPT FINuTHS03FL1BtBYZZTpCAZIfe0MJoWlB_21tP4K Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f50.google.com) (209.85.215.50) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 18:07:24 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f50.google.com with SMTP id v186so89821283lfa.1 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 10:07:24 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+IORilnMpp5/5pOzulbOyCxEOkZ/f6XUEZRSUCM07DQ=; b=G4nQvcfRN/s9loEz94/DCOqUrPhRxzyqEfrAuzJoOWX+QS8md0IVCM8re0EkPVen6V NSzLXo6nXbM7qRXpTT++avBfeFaB/O2NTfXnDGc6wNo2F3WP8VTMseF7SM+FgcRMupXq Zn/VWn/JeFd/zOWCv1Hhm05ORrgXaG8SPyEqXcsL/6Ywcpe2BxwYyaL6UMFvHH/ewKtb 1VeASRt1su393luXqi7uHZj3z9sD1DTi8A38Pn4itOM9VSc3xeCRhQQivJLjR6ebNbIk FBP4LtviJ00pL1xhA3IiQiC1OWD5dAqceXOpoECPIMny3mG2ULc2v2uRFl3XNjr7uVOM P6PQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ0fEysvgGatFaorKSqZVOC3GnvUcc7aATSTT0TXJjkx41egIvjbR+cn7S+lKdtuJpmGMdCRvYJPp9n6Q== X-Received: by 10.25.80.66 with SMTP id z2mr10753964lfj.157.1484589590531; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:59:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 09:59:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:59:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1cb94a2e5454054639f3d5 Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --94eb2c1cb94a2e5454054639f3d5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me konkordas kun tu pri "efacar stilo". 2017-01-16 12:50 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >: > > > Por la unesma, forsan: "efacar stilo". > > 2017-01-16 15:22 GMT+0= 0:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> >> Me uzas Linguolisto por entamar diskuto. Unesma frazi= bezonata: >> >> >> Clear styling. Posiblesi: Forigar stilizo, Forigar sti= lo, Eskartar >> stilizo, Eskartar stilo >> >> >> Strikethrough. Posiblesi:= Surstreko, Surstrekizar, Trastreko, >> Trastrekizar >> >> >> >> Predanko p= ro via helpo >> >> >> JC >> >> > > --94eb2c1cb94a2e5454054639f3d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me konkordas kun tu pri "efacar stilo".

2017-01-16 12:50 GMT= -05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gm= ail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Por la unesma, f= orsan: "efacar stilo".
<= div>

2017-01-16 15= :22 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
=C2=A0

Me = uzas Linguolisto por entamar diskuto.=C2=A0 Unesma frazi bezonata:

<= br>

Clear styling.=C2=A0 Posiblesi: Forigar stilizo, Forigar stilo,= Eskartar stilizo, Eskartar stilo


Strikethrough.=C2=A0 = Posiblesi: Surstreko, Surstrekizar, Trastreko, Trastrekizar



Predanko pro via helpo


JC

=



--94eb2c1cb94a2e5454054639f3d5-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4811 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 18421 invoked by uid 102); 16 Jan 2017 19:34:39 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 19:34:39 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 2088 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2017 19:34:39 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 19:34:39 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.170 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: koRE5KkWLDv572LGK8dIuPAMWoJhvflMPAbp5tAfGd6ZodER t8mqE6g3uqcMgbKLnrhLNw2BGKsovRlITEI6XZXlZblysLDdAOdd7RsJX4EZ ED6pZmIibL0HBdT8d8_2VRv7HeNN4QHYhv4LkUSshaXbKiNP4H.a93XVb2U7 grANUWm46MAmxPmIZa2sKioiv3EketrIcLQ2oCJgUtx03gV9OthRiqiW5utI F32xQbPZqECYNFVMrpDpiaI.cindQ8T878AkQ.D_9EXCu5aq7iigNROp5dnN qX91Qxmj0xw2LS8HFYqsoaRDITtu6s0Ckb1mfJion9TPl3gIjDEYTuK5B22O IrahPPEhOYSlpBmEVZneWrPcStE.ejpAEO4l1xGxxbxbRdDJ.KaN03oSYy.v Alzj_cAZ5LYllLFv71uTrHh8Q4v4tJaIyfnJHuRymBXZV9R09HLq_BfM8Y9i MxWZ9l42hw6wQ3XT7QUbGVSP7FyEjScPHJ3DTGr9HrQ1QhsKogkqN9SSMFci wiXW14MCKjskwqaBUwkD.QWUq8oVVkpCzrzaP2GsvuSKlQhrkgxsBXMlRblj OyNULCRCf9UqBe6AsiP4Nyx3YoKqculeHQmFBl7vVZZrqMyEBT6ViMFPQzlN mKDTbfp_We5t63q7Q_RO58XMfuaR3wNcemk768G7AC.ZBkvVAPXF0OPpj1lw NTnTWwvKt0faYLrbakF4Fh_h79EwcNxzgJbyZ.2V0JjIwP0TmwI7NO_qC4fF ybKhX7fWqD3N6ozwL1Iw.1AeZlpDR8a9NWQ3Qwh0iwNaJiqW_UgBYnU0gGdD 1WVvxVUy5bTFXWZ5cebYkmtE76m5s1uDPhLLE6Im_42CbzYPOXjeaqxnNY.F bla4vQbBxkm2aan8KL4r0Y9fjF0oplMACN6nSwlmpNwagZ6dIL_OF35NG.iq usO7HC6LYHiYBQW1Ugr7V10iDqSBXAPohLCH66uxyzS3dRzMihsp1sgnsjJi rRhQrJXf4GhRj_G2xET9pQ.cHjLdNWlBUa1o1jWYZxn7rtlyP3UZfccEvI8B J4ehM.V6CQdIv78_bGRuxu1HSKn4MCUgGw241DQNQ4rx5cXVcNwP9ZjarSKr al0I9vUhwhVW5Z3cMuMSWBsvCKoLz1JAotSTd.ALPhn.VSQIeT5rOdu3_2rm S8CVkcXz4vvQVj7AApCFbRq1Ch8EMgILJ8M2pGfq5.Fi74keyRFmCPd7ZwcL HzOme.dGdfE5MepVM88f007JBNG4KbNdtBnz5wYM81j.TIZ9OyaRd6M6LGX_ iLH_7KvTtHsoQ4tWxSoAbZxgnrdhZxc2iBrGkxxLGKl4SRgsw4fgfDFWxqv. Vmbod.Ffg7e5ah8VYfkvlhAqAvX.zdA2dDTOGi1kyyY4NW1fNzJPU1VIgAET iECm1oAjpJUvu3wCKI7Gu98TkReprkaWv6PuzETO.pPEyuIsfjFDhzmtNAog 6SP5lyNLe29z4UrqKRQWUotz6IlxtVSOFzyyqA-- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f170.google.com) (209.85.217.170) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:34:39 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 35so88130775uak.1 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:34:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=GWP9eSO6ya/+85QfkdeWwq7KPq1yt25yM1+QJmSluyM=; b=L1Y/GYUDQNI7W3rpuIaBclioVd4XT1KUN7adTFBZvls0eZFEkVrYzZvbb/OnxN5S2q rsUJtXoJXYaBtHGbIx+GMWtv4SRaKRbt7Zbag8addWi00QVgil0+JW36/yiZehO0uiTV u0lSqS5aTcDOjIXI5Yq+xFK/SwtP6ED+h5/Z1vRz/nuanpz3ykLhjgVRuWR6ouprXnhk ra9eKeeNugg4+laNs/H2ZEg64B4FRKOKkBRfSMItgFH9Snk8j0bf8NLOvtpUR7pDXZUw cnKXEOpENtEXc19R12SGcfrQXkDx4zbUn3NRVPGcw5haWOK04WVETrjqVwxmo4HbFfwz u0pQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJSRiqHvdSU77qXc6zxoLaLGXwPk8BWKyTq/bwSWPjUuvvpksTfq9VYibgd93S/hnUz56TWeU6vnb3+Bw== X-Received: by 10.176.0.181 with SMTP id 50mr18705810uaj.103.1484595277375; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:34:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.65.156 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:34:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:34:35 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] -ismi ed -isti X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=CTfs2mH0zHHVAB5IiqRNecVEPMRoWTqJ80OA_stBpGaGIPQdewSC7w X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= Gilles-Philippe, yen la skanuro! Semblas ke ol esas bone lektebla. 2017-01= -15 13:51 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Moriin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] = : > > > Nu! Se tu skanus* lu, interesus me tr= ansskribar e modernigar lu. > > On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Gon=C3=A7a= lo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [linguolisto] w= rote: > >> >> >> Yes, Gilles-Philippe, me posedas papera exemplero di "Enkh= iridion", >> komprita multa yari ante nun, me ne plus memoras ube o quale, = e havanta, >> sur la avana kovrilo, yena stampuro: A. LEEPIN, libristo, BAS= EL, Suiso, >> Klybeckstr. 23. [Lore, en 1909, on ya uzis la vorto-formo "Su= iso" vice la >> nuna "Suisia"] >> >> Regretinde la verko esas en arkaika Id= o (uzata ante la importanta >> modifiki adoptita en 1911), do on lektas ibe= "malquietijos", "malforta" e >> multa tala stranja vorti ed expresuri... M= e povas *skanar la verko, se ol >> interesas nia samideani. Tamen esus pref= erinda transskribar ol ad Ido >> moderna, nam tala stranjaji kelke jenas la= lektado... >> >> Kordiale, >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo >> >> 2017-01-15 3:26 GMT+00= :00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la hodia / cadia /= icadia / nunadia mesaji! Tu esas >>> tre fortunoza posedar la Enkhiridion.= .. >>> >>> Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vener-al-a": http://idolinguo.org.uk/id= fr.htm >>> >>> Danko pro dissavigar tua vidpunto. >>> >>> Gilles-Philippe >= >> >>> 2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >>>= [linguolisto] : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> La vorti "= atik-ismo" ed "atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko >>>> *Atika, nec= esa i.a. por expresar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo >>>> ", quan altre on apene >>>> povus expresar komod= e. La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same kam >>>> "kanono" (eklezi= ala) e "kanono" (militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en omna >>>> lingui. En Id= o oli existas minime, e le existanta apene povas produktar >>>> konflikti, = segun mea experienco. >>>> >>>> Existas plusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exem= ple, che Pesch tu trovos la >>>> vorto "venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua k= oncernas la relati inter-sexua >>>> intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol = kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, segun >>>> mea interpreto, supozigas la = existo di la "latenta" radiko "vener/", de qua >>>> on povas derivar "vener= iko" e "venerika", anke trovebla che Dyer. En la >>>> verko "Enkhiridion o = manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. Pearson e >>>> L. Couturat (190= 9), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto >>>> "veneraji" (p.= 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB... >>>> >>>> Meaopinione, "met= odisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem >>>> prizentinda) kom reguloz= a derivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne >>>> expozis tala derivo, fo= rsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo >>>> da nia fonto-lingui= (en qui, senecepte, la du koncepti esas expresata per >>>> du aparta vorti= ), forsan mem pro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas >>>> nula deriva= la difero inter la trio "turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio >>>> "metodo/metod= isto/metodismo"... >>>> >>>> 2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.com >>>> [linguolisto] : >>>= > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "= atik-ismo" e >>>>> "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? >>>>> >>>>> E= "metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne? >>>>> >>>>= > GP >>>>> >>>>> 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmai= l.com >>>>> [linguolisto] : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>= > >>>>>> O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas kom >>= >>>> "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ en SIL: >>>>>= > >>>>>> **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A *military* | F *militaire* | G >>>>= >> *Milit=C3=A4r-*, *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *militar* | I *militare* | R =D0= =B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | >>>>>> E *militista*]. **militari= gar.* Organizar o preparar *militare >>>>>> (exemple, per sendar soldati, d= ocar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di >>>>>> armeo, e.c.): **militarig= ar lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* >>>>>> Politikala sistemo en qua p= reponderas la *militara povo. *2* >>>>>> Tendenco a fortigar armeo e solvar= konflikti (precipue internaciona) per >>>>>> milito. **militaristo.* Adept= o di ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.* >>>>>> *militarism/* cesez existar kom a= parta radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas >>>>>> *militaristo* e *militarigar* ko= m derivaji de *militarismo*, quo >>>>>> supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D= existo di *militar/* kom aparta radiko; Stuifbergen >>>>>> (*Progreso* 338= , p. 10: ****militara zono*). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:0= 0 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>>>>> [linguolisto] : >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Nu, to esas justa. Me tr= ovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", >>>>>>> "antimilitar-ismo", e.c= . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektad= o. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@g= mail.com >>>>>>> [linguolisto] : >>>>>>> >>>>>= >>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > [Non-text portions of this mes= sage have been removed] From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4812 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 30661 invoked by uid 102); 16 Jan 2017 20:17:31 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 20:17:31 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 3259 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2017 20:17:30 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 20:17:30 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.47 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: IoyMGcMWLDubmHLvyR8wZPdSAEQ2amf2kFAhEoU2RDNYbzl2 pynimebmp18W9p.yuaEXOEnFoYsQrE9ST5CBv621ud5hbCNwCSoY7bUEdh0A KKgsYnckyvuy2JTABG2hLlQnFFPW4mwcpe4XE0oIuL2FF0IUxM6eT5k1tuGr yPfTIME0B43xmuPwgNrADTyUPGOI6fw6K378x.bKsXSckv2eW_r_QXF20NUJ ezmhDolLs77RN4lkgL_T.iZXzyoFAYqDtistp3CzOTx.w_wkIIFzYoZ6Bs1c VU1sZgLq55_TyUTBeWLWGa07DQmG9OtZp8gTR1hsfKlGpYeL0kYmEjvzLjP_ 2FDcG4vGnNBSll0egkw0Fu1YdlysPDuEiQp4zIMRsarPBubQTAyiWreQcOSi yC9Vc2yUbp0kkqv6eLBcu48QM5_CAhEDb8mispz7bZgD22xSBIPTcxdzVnna rdCveVM48zSBCveqmq2a31OdMt52CIv_pYh2mrVGHfOfnmK6G9hF2C.MwlAu Z15z6DghBXDXt7Mvn5IO6juspUdCz4vF9eE6RG.J9LYIN81uHJJhaWgqXV81 PxVZgFv1eRIzOT.ajfoDyo_rNjicqB_OM6e7bOiyySg_i.WVW5qjWHP3NR4D pZiURWsHdWWu22Ii1USsREHTDWZi_le_xtfpOtwmP8jqBk9Qw5RA0cWkKtDs ePIXEZAzNyl8pqdZvU_h9eR4GvnpEugu2NX0UxBwD9CM.a5IpWIqu.FeZM68 6t1P3OWvetrVUzk7o.4ZgzJdD65XtgPwY04hWN.8Y4eNDk.PF6uvV7iTpzdT H8BIU8hVxf62NAClmVvVIWnHyQIWmlIM6Ei9p2Aun25Vry0xmrOsMn1FxQCm JA8Ndb3xfL7_Ld92j4aYi7CBbObTDZ178T7iSbXH2fKPPmhDIEB9iuEs18n8 hGVCZFCIq1EUJCpvBmrksCQcVVb8AVO4YnxsyskkV68GoestEWoNkQvlrd4l BeALTcX9FJAnzQ_0QEl.SRf_muZUgy_MmqiBi1GHfD8lX3OcVnUe5oQShDC0 MUMzTTcEg_R3MYnxOiZM1XmAEVRw4BbqmSgz.6VxCZmp29G9Vj5nAqIblkla 6PH5ThdLn2DT5mjWJRQZdP69v6lvWUadhv7Cgx9FaImjvF4e5OvJnabKF95m Ruc72V2Wo3DtgZI8Wj0I11Qd9kssplg97MrW0NS2qgpmIdjQVqcYT6kck3TN vcA7ykmDOjN.98F0jNSHAsEh5JYIk5ZwMnb9QdHYqMtyOF2IulUreAHVY9sj Rt6lEz4_KRo_wsg29fl6b24hycBHxm1090lXlABXfgi9m6B.U1j6ONkCZMIn RNIwgTNbpnKFkzpZixcgI_hLOyp12TF5MsCoSaERVy7reN3m.hWL3uZv.gpU G8ZV_nblU7kIMuZ3W221MVjVhgmfZg6a7cQYLlPmBUBwN5vmg7GJAu.oHny1 DxJjLcZNlcL_EHtZHbntt3CtoUUAs_WEdJ4QSJyXL6NlNoTGkHdm4eFNxwaj Am0M.UD9Nt85wQ-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f47.google.com) (209.85.215.47) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:17:30 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f47.google.com with SMTP id k86so91954186lfi.0 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:17:29 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=OWR+WomyfAIzoQKxVPBGZLh7QS9URWJwpDl/89Ur4kQ=; b=ufaFmgp5ZBB0RIbhTJdTrtbxGBE5d0ZYDh2SrF5stnbUXA64520KgyRWC5FTYukS2q HmMwBZ6uXiB2qI80RRCp11NW8aPa3EBvDAixJa4raqjXYc2ljrrl6ffHyAZsmHht9xea +38u4gfpi9dWqY3JCm7zdIJYebwnNSACK96uinMOpbLJIYt9mqQzjYKcw1q85uMNUbSX drlSA+6VvymRDVwP8s1LLCwvhMyHZSgtrtCDNLkcS2cojLcHA0REwEBawQok9V+qbx5H pLoK5OFr3LwzKYdSEebnbRaB0Mq4VvQnQMe1ZoXIsc15fsNxP7in0LQTdLGpZNClWrID bK6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLw3re65OasKnWOYAv9GpYsZQUtTn3dBJOIgL5Q/zXaDu3A7cmQcy52k45pMs2qE9bdL1vyvvw61+t2Gw== X-Received: by 10.25.16.28 with SMTP id f28mr13849089lfi.89.1484597848268; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:17:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:17:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:17:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f8fa46166ef05463bdfab Subject: Re: [linguo] -ismi ed -isti X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113f8fa46166ef05463bdfab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Regretinde, Yahoo Groups supresis la dokumento! On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 2:= 34 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Gilles-Philippe, yen la skanuro! Semblas ke ol = esas bone lektebla. > > > 2017-01-15 13:51 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > > > > >= > > Nu! Se tu skanus* lu, interesus me transskribar e modernigar lu. > > >= > On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >= > [linguolisto] wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> Ye= s, Gilles-Philippe, me posedas papera exemplero di "Enkhiridion", > >> komp= rita multa yari ante nun, me ne plus memoras ube o quale, e havanta, > >> s= ur la avana kovrilo, yena stampuro: A. LEEPIN, libristo, BASEL, Suiso, > >>= Klybeckstr. 23. [Lore, en 1909, on ya uzis la vorto-formo "Suiso" vice > l= a > >> nuna "Suisia"] > >> > >> Regretinde la verko esas en arkaika Ido (uz= ata ante la importanta > >> modifiki adoptita en 1911), do on lektas ibe "m= alquietijos", "malforta" > e > >> multa tala stranja vorti ed expresuri... = Me povas *skanar la verko, se > ol > >> interesas nia samideani. Tamen esus= preferinda transskribar ol ad Ido > >> moderna, nam tala stranjaji kelke j= enas la lektado... > >> > >> Kordiale, > >> > >> Gon=C3=A7alo > >> > >> 201= 7-01-15 3:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > >> [lingu= olisto] : > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Gon=C3=A7alo,= danko pro la hodia / cadia / icadia / nunadia mesaji! Tu esas > >>> tre fo= rtunoza posedar la Enkhiridion... > >>> > >>> Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vene= r-al-a": http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm > >>> > >>> Danko pro dissavigar = tua vidpunto. > >>> > >>> Gilles-Philippe > >>> > >>> 2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-= 05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > >>> [linguolisto] : > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> La vorti "atik-ismo" ed "ati= k-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko > >>>> *Atika, necesa i.a. por exp= resar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo > >>>> ", quan altre on apene > > >>>> povus expresar komode. La vort= i "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same > kam > >>>> "kanono" (ekleziala) e= "kanono" (militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en > omna > >>>> lingui. En Ido = oli existas minime, e le existanta apene povas > produktar > >>>> konflikti= , segun mea experienco. > >>>> > >>>> Existas plusa "latenta" radiki en Ido= . Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la > >>>> vorto "venerala", definita kom =C2= =ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua > >>>> intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu = trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, > segun > >>>> mea interpreto,= supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko "vener/", > de qua > >>>> on po= vas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika", anke trovebla che Dyer. En > la > >>>>= verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. > Pearson= e > >>>> L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis la= > vorto > >>>> "veneraji" (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB.= .. > >>>> > >>>> Meaopinione, "metodisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o= mem > >>>> prizentinda) kom reguloza derivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmo= tive ne > >>>> expozis tala derivo, forsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro= forta > influo > >>>> da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, la du koncep= ti esas expresata > per > >>>> du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro manko di no= vigema kurajo. Me tamen > vidas > >>>> nula derivala difero inter la trio "= turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio > >>>> "metodo/metodisto/metodismo"... > >>= >> > >>>> 2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.c= om > >>>> [linguolisto] : > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>= >> > >>>>> Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo= " e > >>>>> "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? > >>>>> > >>>>> E "m= etod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne? > >>>>> > >>>= >> GP > >>>>> > >>>>> 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64= @gmail.com > >>>>> [linguolisto] : > >>>>> > >= >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.)= existas kom > >>>>>> "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *milit= ar/ en SIL: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A *military* | F= *militaire* | G > >>>>>> *Milit=C3=A4r-*, *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *militar*= | I *militare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | > >>>>>> E= *militista*]. **militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare > >>>>>> (exe= mple, per sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la > povo di > >= >>>>> armeo, e.c.): **militarigar lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* > >= >>>>> Politikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. *2* > >>>>>>= Tendenco a fortigar armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue > internaciona) per= > >>>>>> milito. **militaristo.* Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.* >= >>>>>> *militarism/* cesez existar kom aparta radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizenta= s > >>>>>> *militaristo* e *militarigar* kom derivaji de *militarismo*, quo= > >>>>>> supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di *militar/* kom apar= ta radiko; > Stuifbergen > >>>>>> (*Progreso* 338, p. 10: ****militara zono= *). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mo= rin gphmorin@gmail.com > >>>>>> [linguolisto] = : > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra= tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", > >>>>>>> "antimilitar-ismo", e.c. > >>>>= >>> > >>>>>>> Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado. >= >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@g= mail.com > >>>>>>> [linguolisto] : > >>>>>>> >= >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > [Non-te= xt portions of this message have been removed] > > > --001a113f8fa46166ef05463bdfab Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Regretinde, Yahoo Groups supresis la dokumento!

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 a= t 2:34 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves6= 4@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&g= t; wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Gilles-Philippe, yen la skanuro! Semblas ke ol esas bone le= ktebla.



2017-01-15 13:51 GMT+00:00 Gill= es-Philippe Morin g= phmorin@gmail.com
[linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
>
>
> Nu! Se tu skanus* lu, interesus me transskribar= e modernigar lu.
>
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves= 64@gmail.com
> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote= :
>
>>
>>
>> Yes, Gilles-Philippe, me = posedas papera exemplero di "Enkhiridion",
>> komprita = multa yari ante nun, me ne plus memoras ube o quale, e havanta,
>>= ; sur la avana kovrilo, yena stampuro: A. LEEPIN, libristo, BASEL, Suiso, >> Klybeckstr. 23. [Lore, en 1909, on ya uzis la vorto-formo "= ;Suiso" vice la
>> nuna "Suisia"]
>>
= >> Regretinde la verko esas en arkaika Ido (uzata ante la importanta=
>> modifiki adoptita en 1911), do on lektas ibe "malquietij= os", "malforta" e
>> multa tala stranja vorti ed e= xpresuri... Me povas *skanar la verko, se ol
>> interesas nia sam= ideani. Tamen esus preferinda transskribar ol ad Ido
>> moderna, = nam tala stranjaji kelke jenas la lektado...
>>
>> Kord= iale,
>>
>> Gon=C3=A7alo
>>
>> 2017= -01-15 3:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Moorin gphmorin@gmail.com
>> [linguolisto] = <linguo= listo@yahoogroups.com>:
>>
>>>
>>&g= t;
>>> Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la hodia / cadia / icadia / nun= adia mesaji! Tu esas
>>> tre fortunoza posedar la Enkhiridion.= ..
>>>
>>> Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vener-al= -a": ht= tp://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm
>>>
>>> D= anko pro dissavigar tua vidpunto.
>>>
>>> Gilles-= Philippe
>>>
>>> 2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gne= ves64@gmail.com
>>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>&= gt;>> La vorti "atik-ismo" ed "atik-isto" subkomp= renigas la latenta radiko
>>>> *Atika, necesa i.a. por expr= esar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo
>>>> = <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_Greek>", quan altre o= n apene

>>>> povus expresar komode. = La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same kam
>>&g= t;> "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kanono" (militala) i.a. = Homonimi existas en omna
>>>> lingui. En Ido oli existas mi= nime, e le existanta apene povas produktar
>>>> konflikti, = segun mea experienco.
>>>>
>>>> Existas plu= sa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la
&= gt;>>> vorto "venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncerna= s la relati inter-sexua
>>>> intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu t= rovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, segun
>>>= ;> mea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko = "vener/", de qua
>>>> on povas derivar "vene= riko" e "venerika", anke trovebla che Dyer. En la
>&g= t;>> verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukit= a da C. S. Pearson e
>>>> L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / ca= die / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto
>>>> "veneraji&= quot; (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB...
>>>&g= t;
>>>> Meaopinione, "metodisto" e "metodism= o" esas prizentebla (o mem
>>>> prizentinda) kom regul= oza derivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne
>>>= > expozis tala derivo, forsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta inf= luo
>>>> da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, la du konc= epti esas expresata per
>>>> du aparta vorti), forsan mem p= ro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas
>>>> nula deriv= ala difero inter la trio "turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio
>= ;>>> "metodo/metodisto/metodismo"...
>>&g= t;>
>>>> 2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mori= n gphmorin@gmail.co= m
>>>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= >>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>= ;>>>> Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus &qu= ot;atik-ismo" e
>>>>> "atik-isto" nam &qu= ot;atiko" konfliktus, ka ne?
>>>>>
>>>= >> E "metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus en apart= a paragrafo, ka ne?
>>>>>
>>>>> GP >>>>>
>>>>> 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 G= on=C3=A7alo Neves g= neves64@gmail.com
>>>>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
= >>>>>>
>>>>>> O forsan Dyer intenci= s montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas kom
>>>>&g= t;> "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ e= n SIL:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>= ; **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A *military* | F *militaire* | G
>>= ;>>>> *Milit=C3=A4r-*, *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *militar* | I *mi= litare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 |
>>>&g= t;>> E *militista*]. **militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare
>>>>>> (exemple, per sendar soldati, = docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di
>>>>>= > armeo, e.c.): **militarigar lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1*
= >>>>>> Politikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara= povo. *2*
>>>>>> Tendenco a fortiga= r armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per
 >>&= gt;>>> milito. **militaristo.* Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. *R= em.*
>>>>>> *militarism/* cesez existar kom aparta ra= diko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas
>>>>>> *militaristo* e *m= ilitarigar* kom derivaji de *militarismo*, quo
>>>>>>= supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di *militar/* kom aparta radiko= ; Stuifbergen
>>>>>> (*Progreso* 338, p. 10: ****mili= tara zono*).
>>>>>>
>>>= >>>
>>>>>> 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-= Philippe Morin gphm= orin@gmail.com
>>>>>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>&g= t;>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nu= , to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo",=
>>>>>>> "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.
&g= t;>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Forsan Dyer skr= ibis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado.
>>>>>>&g= t;
>>>>>>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo= Neves gneves64@gma= il.com
>>>>>>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>= >>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>><= br> >>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>=
>
>

 [Non-text portions of this message have= been removed]

=

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Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido= , "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar&q= uot; (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).
=
https://en.wik= tionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido

=
2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Pos analizir la defino di "swichar"= en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter&quo= t; en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu= preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di &quo= t;komutar".

Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en = 1926?

Gilles-Philippe

=

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On "swichas" u= lo en od ek quo? Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 G= on=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroup= s.com>: > > > Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas= uzata > precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (= to turn > off). > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido > https://= en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido > > 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-P= hilippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vo= rti, e pos >> analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas k= e "swichar" >> esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive adm= axime tota >> sinonimo di "komutar". >> >> Kad on havas informo pri lua ado= pto en 1926? >> >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> > > --94eb2c1cb94a56310405463c8b8c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed = "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?
<= br>
2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves= gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]= <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "= swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to= turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).

http= s://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.= org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido

2017-01-16 0:= 39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolist= o@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Pos analizir = la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir= la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swic= har" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", siv= e admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar".

Kad on = havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Phili= ppe


=

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La vorto "komutar" [senco elek., ne matem.] havas, segun Dyer, la senco dil Angla vorto "commutate". Ico signifikas chanjar kurento alternanta a kurento un-sinsa [quale komutilo facas en generatoro], od inverse [quale komutilo facas en motoro]. Dyer anke dicas ke komutilo esas "commutator". Ico konfirmas la senco dil verbo. Segun Pesch, "komutar" havas nur senco elektrala ed ol diferas de ta indikita da Dyer: "Cirkuligar ed interruptar (elektro-fluo) o chanjar lua direciono." LNV (1988) dicas ke "swichar" (adoptita en 1926) esas "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Esas nula menciono di starto o haltigo dil kurento. LNV dicas ke la Franca vorto esas "commuter" e la Angla vorto esas "to switch". La senco elektrala dil Angla vorto esas startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento. Quale Gonçalo dicas, generale on en-swichas od ek-swichas. [Swich-ilo esas kozo uzata por en-swichar ed ek-swichar.] Yen plusa exemplo dil kaoso definala qua destruktas la praktikaleso di linguo. Ti qui uzas un fonto o mem un tradukuro ne komprenas same kam ti qui uzas altra. Ti qui konsultas plura fonti lamentas. Robert C. Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:40:39 +0000: Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar". Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926? Gilles-Philippe From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4816 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 28305 invoked by uid 102); 16 Jan 2017 22:00:17 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 22:00:17 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 24338 invoked from network); 16 Jan 2017 22:00:17 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jan 2017 22:00:17 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.47 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: unKLdZoWLDsvfVbXZEMDFEd4C7Tp7t6VzWUc0fvg_b17aWmH BQ422.hDEpbMcKuiHTxTVNIPIXLf2_RbHjRGCeuBfnQ1qlT.Vmel1pvyploi rwutRFX8KoaLz37kkpcxbs5Xh873a8VwbslntAUzTxY8nVHQzkUROW1s_QuT 1MPRIh5BhLKBlPPtdHNxjvOhw..RdnnCYneEw5krQJzLjeAeRTWQ5CgbDBIi wcznIIE063ZSId7pc5Q09rAMJl2Y6neqABotpAJaZSikd1H_hE99HwwJfzyi 6xIdvRld2knDNGAZc4dxAQviArCSUPxfzg.U3UZn_T4R1.ZeQHAQoVzEiS8g FEvTp_ac_SztMemgRigysdQakUlhyIIVUssRrnW_v2d01FE.Fe2I5JAjsURq lSFWQKSO5GHmlhK1q9Y0.BQNJsTLo5ORIlA8zF7gb69MSx0Z9Mm_rOi4hqH3 EjoqoeYtBGJkLQXUO_SxMv08JP6nfOwj_VfEDvI47ML7Wz5L1_cDn6sPLarp E3qgVy9A5OZnXPN.bkrPx05pD85C6TUKXSE5UFPtIUu4JWofhgUJWJ5XcdoA CpvL7WO9a4u9ZRSIHH73PmUFwY1aENaEOlkyLccr2LGlyu4_8ZG2O6qv.lcb 9avUb2PmCeiUwTHWh7AvYLS5nbGQhCIexnOevfYuhGIUyRObEhLYBo8pDXXq 8icOucfk0iwAZIbE_78DpsvA0jSGlcIv11e296eAmeCAhiOQ01QwAAUXa_nJ OKIfyvExfdaZDJYDjvDKU0wmUNayvbBz6f.7hUvoRLibBSpR0pVpz0zD3zff jJbMjOBfweORmx3SsebwL8jfk5_iRWuIpfuKJZz.jhSzD6HMPYTZ84Dhtjt7 55uFZ3HJhxkkIZ_1oMNpWO8F5OVzvd4MJblOJX_UoWqWJDqPumtuwp2jVNC9 ZjL7Ii9RvSaRb2O5pTfy.lJZOHm3Yf_d9IxXqhZsX.ocV_J8kcu_5NcZvdw9 qSXUsHycIENc2ktMW44Q82XO.rRz31kONTppAOroY7ffxN3yLEHRAFFZQneU NAkKfcChA0xHcNJcVjApZFVPofCssoWT6vVYe7J0H5wfS3J3y_WADu_Tnd8F ZaZ6XBD71sKigkNgrya1oTe4tPAueejJLtEFVlVxOG8OE3Q.VUE3BeisXnic 1cZ2xXQ5UYF4x0RrGalGerRiXvNp4PFivm6Xki7L7iPUSSLKtCKMcoYAW3xj 5f9wI.4FpJAZjluG7JkJnrcS3pXu3HCaUQCW.j2pX6q90rGpU_ffpwp5T_oV sYl.FlNtJ0Mtpv3qPggiKBIJFSm9Vr850NXGKTheKI7TSDp8YwXkP9d4IRUB .Q0tc.r_b57o2E9qj97_BE4Cy26FB4t9sZePNAak_BhDQLIoMqsgk3VlWw64 uFLutZvicTyV8wO3BOp3SX9k8NLhvKKoXBWV9GriUIUoN8LZgQFY5v.Ck15l nR8EUFEeQzZvHlXonbsWYJ_UfIhaU8MpVeDlv2Rtv0KXqH5dftrTU865ZNxy PGqryjlwHlrfBw-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f47.google.com) (209.85.215.47) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:00:17 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f47.google.com with SMTP id z134so90044250lff.3 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 14:00:17 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=uTFQRxscCa7y7Ze1c+46BYxbSu5OaIbYcbuJYHh2AM4=; b=onezL+gsxskEIYJVN5R5OgEEp055WX8h75WQtEWFn223f74LPZPZkTd9O67El+zIeM U134UvV+S2sHIYZQ40eTXSWRFysIEQ/Fs3gZPm9bl228thpkLihV4bz5SMFytF6fnVMD TpHza2bcUBDhP41RckWGCNQ7I/EMhEI9XsrUPAq3f0Qe8GR32eed4Db6hAGwlvxkUfwU R3cvBg3tP48dL90MEwMy3S5uA88D1f8H1Vw2Vs9u+QIlhODNEnrGKhR7QBbnBZlBdSJ6 QhntRtYVejzTeESnNLnHnqRTJ2uCPJpqebRTcAJoHhomI8JKN1ZxOvfp0h/uW3O++2nb 7uWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIVGMO1AZ2z86t9J9+oUIPWXu7a/y4Senig0JmKlglFmqx/XQKS8CIN7vIPkyJlc43ZJC+e2n47BX3Skw== X-Received: by 10.46.84.93 with SMTP id y29mr2996402ljd.51.1484604015946; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 14:00:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 14:00:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2017116213139.450089@D9B5MN3J> References: <2017116213139.450089@D9B5MN3J> Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 17:00:15 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045fba4e00b17205463d4f7f Subject: Re: [linguo] "swichar' e "komutar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045fba4e00b17205463d4f7f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu: "commutate" (Angla) =3D "commuter" (Franca) =3D "swichar" (segun la Lex= iko di Nova Vorti)... Itere, to ne explikas la logiko gramatikala di "ek" = ed "en". 2017-01-16 16:31 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguoli= sto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > La vorto "komutar" [senco elek.= , ne matem.] havas, segun Dyer, la senco > dil Angla vorto "commutate". Ico= signifikas chanjar kurento alternanta a > kurento un-sinsa [quale komutilo= facas en generatoro], od inverse [quale > komutilo facas en motoro]. Dyer = anke dicas ke komutilo esas "commutator". > Ico konfirmas la senco dil verb= o. > > Segun Pesch, "komutar" havas nur senco elektrala ed ol diferas de ta= > indikita da Dyer: "Cirkuligar ed interruptar (elektro-fluo) o chanjar lu= a > direciono." > > LNV (1988) dicas ke "swichar" (adoptita en 1926) esas "= chanjar la > direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Esas nula menc= iono di > starto o haltigo dil kurento. LNV dicas ke la Franca vorto esas "= commuter" > e la Angla vorto esas "to switch". La senco elektrala dil Angla= vorto esas > startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato= , o chanjar la > direciono (voyo) di kurento. > > Quale Gon=C3=A7alo dicas,= generale on en-swichas od ek-swichas. [Swich-ilo esas > kozo uzata por en-= swichar ed ek-swichar.] > > Yen plusa exemplo dil kaoso definala qua destru= ktas la praktikaleso di > linguo. Ti qui uzas un fonto o mem un tradukuro n= e komprenas same kam ti > qui uzas altra. Ti qui konsultas plura fonti lame= ntas. > > Robert C. > > Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]= - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 > 19:40:39 +0000: > Segun quante me savas e memoras, en= nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata > precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to = turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn > off). > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki= /enswichar#Ido > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido > > 2017-01-1= 6 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en = la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos > analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Fra= nca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" > esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "= komutar", sive admaxime tota > sinonimo di "komutar". > > Kad on havas info= rmo pri lua adopto en 1926? > > Gilles-Philippe > > > --f403045fba4e00b17205463d4f7f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu:
"commutate" (Angla) =3D "commuter&q= uot; (Franca) =3D "swichar" (segun la Lexiko di Nova Vorti)...

Itere, to ne explikas la logiko gramatikala di "= ;ek" ed "en".

2017-01-16 16:31 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

La vorto "komutar&= quot; [senco elek., ne matem.] havas, segun Dyer, la senco dil Angla vorto = "commutate". Ico signifikas chanjar kurento alternanta a kurento = un-sinsa [quale komutilo facas en generatoro], od inverse [quale komutilo f= acas en motoro]. Dyer anke dicas ke komutilo esas "commutator". I= co konfirmas la senco dil verbo.

Segun Pesch, "komutar" = havas nur senco elektrala ed ol diferas de ta indikita da Dyer: "Cirku= ligar ed interruptar (elektro-fluo) o chanjar lua direciono."

= LNV (1988) dicas ke "swichar" (adoptita en 1926) esas "chan= jar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Esas nula menci= ono di starto o haltigo dil kurento. LNV dicas ke la Franca vorto esas &quo= t;commuter" e la Angla vorto esas "to switch". La senco elek= trala dil Angla vorto esas startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o hal= tigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento.

Quale Gon= =C3=A7alo dicas, generale on en-swichas od ek-swichas. [Swich-ilo esas kozo= uzata por en-swichar ed ek-swichar.]

Yen plusa exemplo dil kaoso = definala qua destruktas la praktikaleso di linguo. Ti qui uzas un fonto o m= em un tradukuro ne komprenas same kam ti qui uzas altra. Ti qui konsultas p= lura fonti lamentas.

Robert C.

Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:40:39 +0000:
Segun q= uante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata preci= pue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar&q= uot; (to turn off).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#= Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido

= 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yah= oogroups.com>:


Pos analizir la defino di "swic= har" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "com= muter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adm= inime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonim= o di "komutar".

Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1= 926?

Gilles-Philippe

=

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Me quik sendos ol per privata mesajo. 2017-01-16 20:17 GMT+00= :00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Regretinde, Yahoo Groups supresis la dokumento! > > O= n Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [li= nguolisto] wrote: > >> >> >> Gilles-Philippe,= yen la skanuro! Semblas ke ol esas bone lektebla. >> >> >> 2017-01-15 13:5= 1 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >> > >> > >> > Nu! Se tu skanus* lu, interesus= me transskribar e modernigar lu. >> > >> > On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:35 AM= , Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> > [linguolisto] wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes, Gilles-Philippe, me poseda= s papera exemplero di "Enkhiridion", >> >> komprita multa yari ante nun, me= ne plus memoras ube o quale, e >> havanta, >> >> sur la avana kovrilo, yen= a stampuro: A. LEEPIN, libristo, BASEL, Suiso, >> >> Klybeckstr. 23. [Lore,= en 1909, on ya uzis la vorto-formo "Suiso" vice >> la >> >> nuna "Suisia"]= >> >> >> >> Regretinde la verko esas en arkaika Ido (uzata ante la importa= nta >> >> modifiki adoptita en 1911), do on lektas ibe "malquietijos", >> "= malforta" e >> >> multa tala stranja vorti ed expresuri... Me povas *skanar= la verko, se >> ol >> >> interesas nia samideani. Tamen esus preferinda tr= ansskribar ol ad Ido >> >> moderna, nam tala stranjaji kelke jenas la lekta= do... >> >> >> >> Kordiale, >> >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo >> >> >> >> 2017-01-15= 3:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> >> [linguolisto= ] : >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Gon=C3=A7alo, d= anko pro la hodia / cadia / icadia / nunadia mesaji! Tu esas >> >>> tre for= tunoza posedar la Enkhiridion... >> >>> >> >>> Ta lexiko anke kontenas "ven= er-al-a": http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.h >> tm >> >>> >> >>> Danko pro diss= avigar tua vidpunto. >> >>> >> >>> Gilles-Philippe >> >>> >> >>> 2017-01-14= 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> >>> [linguolisto]= : >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> La vorti "at= ik-ismo" ed "atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko >> >>>> *Atika, ne= cesa i.a. por expresar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo >> >>>> ", quan altre on apene >> >> >>>> povus expr= esar komode. La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, >> same kam >> >>>> = "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kanono" (militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en >> omna= >> >>>> lingui. En Ido oli existas minime, e le existanta apene povas >> p= roduktar >> >>>> konflikti, segun mea experienco. >> >>>> >> >>>> Existas p= lusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos >> la >> >>>> vo= rto "venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua >> >= >>> intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizent= o, >> segun >> >>>> mea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" rad= iko "vener/", >> de qua >> >>>> on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika", a= nke trovebla che Dyer. En >> la >> >>>> verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di = Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. >> Pearson e >> >>>> L. Couturat (1909), me h= odie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis la >> vorto >> >>>> "veneraji" (p. 1= 6), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB... >> >>>> >> >>>> Meaopinione, = "metodisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem >> >>>> prizentinda) kom = reguloza derivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive >> ne >> >>>> expozis ta= la derivo, forsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta >> influo >> >>>> = da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, la du koncepti esas >> expresata pe= r >> >>>> du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tam= en >> vidas >> >>>> nula derivala difero inter la trio "turo/turisto/turism= o" e la trio >> >>>> "metodo/metodisto/metodismo"... >> >>>> >> >>>> 2017-0= 1-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> >>>> [ling= uolisto] : >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> = Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e >> >>>>= > "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> E "metod-ism= o" e "metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> GP = >> >>>>> >> >>>>> 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gma= il.com >> >>>>> [linguolisto] : >> >>>>> >> >>= >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.= ) existas kom >> >>>>>> "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *mil= itar/ en SIL: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A *military*= | F *militaire* | G >> >>>>>> *Milit=C3=A4r-*, *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *mil= itar* | I *militare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 >> | >>= >>>>>> E *militista*]. **militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare >> >= >>>>> (exemple, per sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la >> = povo di >> >>>>>> armeo, e.c.): **militarigar lando*, *regiono*. **militari= smo* *1* >> >>>>>> Politikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo.= *2* >> >>>>>> Tendenco a fortigar armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue >> in= ternaciona) per >> >>>>>> milito. **militaristo.* Adepto di ta sistemo o te= ndenco. *Rem.* >> >>>>>> *militarism/* cesez existar kom aparta radiko. Fon= ti: Dyer >> prizentas >> >>>>>> *militaristo* e *militarigar* kom derivaji = de *militarismo*, quo >> >>>>>> supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo = di *militar/* kom aparta radiko; >> Stuifbergen >> >>>>>> (*Progreso* 338, = p. 10: ****militara zono*). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> 2017-01-14 1:41 G= MT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> >>>>>> [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Nu= , to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala >> "militar-ismo", >> >>>= >>>> "antimilitar-ismo", e.c. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Forsan Dyer skribis -is= mo e -isto por simpligar la lektado. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> 2017-01-11 12:19= GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> >>>>>>> [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>> = >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> [Non-text portions of this me= ssage have been removed] >> >> > > --001a113ed2587c601905463d993a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ne importas! Me quik sendos ol per privata mesajo.

2017-01-16 20:1= 7 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gph= morin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Regretinde, Yahoo Groups supresis la = dokumento!

<= div>
On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 2:34 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves <= a href=3D"mailto:gneves64@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wro= te:
= =C2=A0

Gilles-Philippe, yen la skanuro!= Semblas ke ol esas bone lektebla.



2017-01-15 13:51 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com
= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

>
>
&g= t; Nu! Se tu skanus* lu, interesus me transskribar e modernigar lu.
>= ;
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com
>= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
>> >>
>> Yes, Gilles-Philippe, me posedas papera exemplero = di "Enkhiridion",
>> komprita multa yari ante nun, me n= e plus memoras ube o quale, e havanta,
>> sur la avana kovrilo, y= ena stampuro: A. LEEPIN, libristo, BASEL, Suiso,
>> Klybeckstr. 2= 3. [Lore, en 1909, on ya uzis la vorto-formo "Suiso" vice la
= >> nuna "Suisia"]
>>
>> Regretinde la v= erko esas en arkaika Ido (uzata ante la importanta
>> modifiki ad= optita en 1911), do on lektas ibe "malquietijos", "malforta&= quot; e
>> multa tala stranja vorti ed expresuri... Me povas *ska= nar la verko, se ol
>> interesas nia samideani. Tamen esus prefer= inda transskribar ol ad Ido
>> moderna, nam tala stranjaji kelke = jenas la lektado...
>>
>> Kordiale,
>>
&g= t;> Gon=C3=A7alo
>>
>> 2017-01-15 3:26 GMT+00:00 Gil= les-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com
>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Gon= =C3=A7alo, danko pro la hodia / cadia / icadia / nunadia mesaji! Tu esas >>> tre fortunoza posedar la Enkhiridion...
>>>
= >>> Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vener-al-a": http://idolinguo.org.uk/i= dfr.htm
>>>
>>> Danko pro dissavigar tua= vidpunto.
>>>
>>> Gilles-Philippe
>>&g= t;
>>> 2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com
= >>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
>>>=
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> La vorti &q= uot;atik-ismo" ed "atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radi= ko
>>>> *Atika, necesa i.a. por expresar la koncepto "= Atika Greka linguo
>>>> <https://en= .wikipedia.org/wiki/Attic_Greek>", quan altre on apene

>>= ;>> povus expresar komode. La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esas = homonima, same kam
>>>> "kanono" (ekleziala) e &q= uot;kanono" (militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en omna
>>>&= gt; lingui. En Ido oli existas minime, e le existanta apene povas produktar=
>>>> konflikti, segun mea experienco.
>>>>=
>>>> Existas plusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exem= ple, che Pesch tu trovos la
>>>> vorto "venerala"= , definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua
>>>&g= t; intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olc= a prizento, segun
>>>> mea interpreto, supozigas la existo = di la "latenta" radiko "vener/", de qua
>>>= ;> on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika", anke tr= ovebla che Dyer. En la
>>>> verko "Enkhiridion o manu-= libro di Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. Pearson e
>>>> = L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto
= >>>> "veneraji" (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sen= suala=C2=BB...
>>>>
>>>> Meaopinione, "= ;metodisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem
>&g= t;>> prizentinda) kom reguloza derivaji de "metodo". Tamen = Dyer ulmotive ne
>>>> expozis tala derivo, forsan pro manko= di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo
>>>> da nia fonto-ling= ui (en qui, senecepte, la du koncepti esas expresata per
>>>&g= t; du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vida= s
>>>> nula derivala difero inter la trio "turo/turist= o/turismo" e la trio
>>>> "metodo/metodisto/metod= ismo"...
>>>>
>>>> 2017-01-14 17:= 10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com
>>>> [linguolisto] &= lt;linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>=
>>>>>
>>>>> Nu, me deskonkordas. Seg= un ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e
>>>>&= gt; "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne?
>= >>>>
>>>>> E "metod-ismo" e "= metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne?
>>>>&g= t;
>>>>> GP
>>>>>
>>>>= ;> 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com
>>>>= > [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
>>>>><= br> >>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>&= gt;>> O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) e= xistas kom
>>>>>> "latenta" aparta radiko..= . Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ en SIL:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **militar*/*a.* Militistala = [A *military* | F *militaire* | G
>>>>>> *Milit=C3=A4= r-*, *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *militar* | I *militare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5= =D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 |
>>>>>> E *militista*]. **m= ilitarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare
>= >>>>> (exemple, per sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, a= ugmentar la povo di
 >>>>>> armeo, e.c.)= : **militarigar lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1*
>>>>&= gt;> Politikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. *2*
>>>>>> Tendenco a fortigar armeo e s= olvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per
 >>>&= gt;>> milito. **militaristo.* Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.*=
>>>>>> *militarism/* cesez existar kom aparta radiko= . Fonti: Dyer prizentas
>>>>>> *militaristo* e *milit= arigar* kom derivaji de *militarismo*, quo
>>>>>> sup= ozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di *militar/* kom aparta radiko; St= uifbergen
>>>>>> (*Progreso* 338, p. 10: ****militara= zono*).
>>>>>>
>>&g= t;>>>
>>>>>> 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gille= s-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com
>>>>>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>&g= t;>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nu= , to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo",=
>>>>>>> "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.
&g= t;>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Forsan Dyer skr= ibis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado.
>>>>>>&g= t;
>>>>>>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo= Neves gneves64@gma= il.com
>>>>>>> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>= >>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>><= br> >>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>=
>
>

 [Non-text portions of this messa= ge have been removed]

<= /div>

=
=

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No dia 16 de janeiro de 2017 =C3=A0s= 21:05, Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] escreveu: > > > Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswic= har" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" > ulo en od ek quo? > > Ka to esas eroroz= a Anglajo? > > 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail= .com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> >> Segun quante= me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata >> precipue en lua d= erivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn >> off). >> >> htt= ps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki= /ekswichar#Ido >> >> 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmor= in@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>>= Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos >>> = analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" >>= > esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota >>= > sinonimo di "komutar". >>> >>> Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 192= 6? >>> >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> >>> >> > --001a11c169dafdfdaf0546401db2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me konfesez ke me esas iliterat= a pri elektrala temi, do me simple uzas ta du vorti tal qual, sen analizir = oli...

No dia 16 de janeiro de 2017 =C3=A0s 21:05, Gilles-Philippe M= orin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> escreveu:
=C2=A0
=

Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed &q= uot;ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?
2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves <= a href=3D"mailto:gneves64@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Segun quante me savas e memoras, e= n nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "e= nswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido
http= s://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova= Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me k= onkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por &q= uot;komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar".
=
Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926?

<= /div>
Gilles-Philippe

<= div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255);height:0px">
=

=

=
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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:55:20 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa4= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:55:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:1B33735E2F1AE38E7820FA136D78BE64A67A6BF3C5F6C5BD03126B000FC32622;UpperCasedChecksum:B0AF583447C5D57E35ECC6B4EEEDEEEF86CEBBC2BABFDF6F9E16DF67178D4EDD;SizeAsReceived:7746;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [gejQjYtzLUOqbmkLBLqy6wRITDXz5c1/] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;HE1EUR02HT139;7:S1hfj4cYZMdtLOru+523deTEKxG5HQg1sY0+SNxmAG4tolQtITUJE+OM+CS9gdeMVJyQIJ3MlYYQs3KuoLYGsR2w+RHRBvn3B3qv/T+2Niwlf7uvarBTTu+VFkV2hSxvCubAkT2f3FGmgEOQ7Sy2pEsxCWUNLIMWz9Xmi3FAz24I6hZiLrQHEFwu1QQE9Agb8DdfDTEfnzxYqT76Ok906pyCSfkjclhS0O4zQCZ/11h/cmFrTM8911UUxHZaLbrMnOMnCMVR9T2z7mGKhcVH0ipCvKStcKF4d3dQFqVZ5QdU1g/a/nFxUlcqnCDqKM3GI9gN2iEqyDxJbMD+fP5aiyYpvUBf3fcRjYMvNlxOXiejpBoi9tzBAZvB+eMyvO9bSF1nFay7iEOb/JkByw3Uo3+QsLHNeV1akjZWIjWUZAeOFZMJNVjPFJ4HHp0Cx5WbVQXyNSnckYuiJaR1YwW2ug== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:HE1EUR02HT139;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:en; 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u=24528831; y=Ozf306ozhb6pjLADz0KGRKFkOWdJwebiz53-ABo86IU X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB13973A6A3EE539A12C01895AAA47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dyer Angla-Ido havas: s[trike]. out: efacar; sur-strek-izar On povas vid= ar la logiko di amba. Tra- esas du-dimensionala, sur- esas tri-dimensional= a. ________________________________ From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail= .com [linguolisto] Sent: 16 January 2017 16:1= 1 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor = Strikethrough: tra-strek-izar (Dyer) --_000_DB5PR03MB13973A6A3EE539A12C01895AAA47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dyer Angla-Ido hava= s:


s[trike]. out: efacar; sur-strek-izar


On povas = vidar la logiko di amba.  Tra- esas du-dimensionala, sur- esas tri-dim= ensionala.

From: linguolisto@yahhoogroups.com on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguo= listo]
Sent: 16 January 2017= 16:11
To: Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi be= zonata por VisualEditor
 


Stri= kethrough: tra-strek-izar (Dyer)
--_000_DB5PR03MB13973A6A3EE539A12C01895AAA47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4820 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 5625 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 11:48:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m10.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 11:48:10 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 31693 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 11:48:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 11:48:10 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.47 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: qikMrX8WLDsuFVcQflqJUOkZ7jCisY2Ujpn5yEL5Qw0J9km5 d9E4O5ckf4I2GUrqL1CtCS5PVjEeuba2jb9H6R9Ty8iceQXx_86ZoGLdo7P3 UKhy6LbXzePjTXpgjy6.7iK.H0rr_l7IkT6aVCq..fB0YgRlLAlWUnfPQQRZ AAg8_2kUtlt.8TaSK3Hb..zz8n.8OwAfBqafVSdpD6YjRdlGNY5xJgzwDpi9 zTuAShc2bnvlXzVL2C8_cZEiUiu55CU6TEpIaSSe7HmIFjsPh3q7P.Ck7IK6 7vFkTAmST3mMQgfd0qXwIisas2v8qnXeNxaeuLBLrkB13hMRXljBzy9SyywK _pPFmEFEc6YTtcreasExN0liGERtAp0.f9qI3MX93PDgM9ufwg7qHWhSmqUc DbmA39hrOZOwHfaWzbdn07mJ5PkfskfWmd0fs3CMaTIdiz1Y4.9F_Zo7.CI8 5.M1__ROPSe0BFC1M0bmOtSbn6fY3kCiVqmZtFBDF.N7cZtw3anV6U315mer ZJjeh6JIIMhVgTdXnb7W1yhdl666Vp_a3pKoDtwV3x7AVNQV3SS6gxYjM8i3 Jbsoqojr_5Vl8Clc8RqfdNefyun2Qy.oOTQ.ablfAxiA6J4Y_9PhCi8Y8jjJ nEJM.NiZyR26FCrFtjzRm3BlGH9c5hVE3zMCVgZCYdESUaMGzSsAvKyrBs4I AeVTqjIy9_0dzw5oOnGWE0BMCXy0eLzypnk0qu4QFrqutu6a_ay8Ooqc4ODJ JSGgk61RXkpMbTcYDLQduouKWzxlB7zDD2lvWq8fgE4HgnJE7WJpXQfxaXMJ pA1mbtU9MpTuW5a5DA9U5iitTMhCVlZD3aLZGOVK3.3Rm9Y5ZCynFhX8hpaa bDQhHyv5pEy6zgNzElPZRzCH9BNlTbWmJxI.liyRihbjyNgZ6_ZxgI3WGeg2 VQHIA50etRQlw8P3TQxL5z.7cklZAoAFA3qN6Lys4GHDrFudQ2LZAUvW5p_8 Lxv_Cukq2F_vI6T5qjaljD1_FnkVeSzqdIvWk0Fuk6mqHhKyHUidgvC9nPz6 vMSLsy8H7m5cI_ZEFqz2YcYV70EqKPNBp0aIP0KIz7t4bcDLwL21FAojMksk ZP1_lY_lcJ2ZUg6KGRTe.UzfACkxwzp8qkqq0atXvr.QX1GMIhcBqEXFXlBJ mjDkpqza5tnn5QuouLKT184Ykj_4tuGnIfzvd4xgxuzlv_kZPLm4vr7.JAFq SyY6X7_1EhkWJfDEiRKh_A-- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f47.google.com) (209.85.213.47) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:48:09 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f47.google.com with SMTP id t8so90436109vke.3 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 03:48:09 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=P4TD6UA+f0T194tTVIqnCHr6J4vWzKvBcik11zNxXxM=; b=V3Vk0Rk4L3qaYE3JvPOM8fo4sfwDmrtOwHbJbSsQJ6MACUbiKkn9lL/tGNm9AvnSeo yKCxiSXUGFl742NL8jFxJQWIuFJRZ5j7FImIQlza2jH5iT2wK8hIN+fGCygrAHy2npJc jjQECRSfXw9tpmb8tN5E9BIwq/rnEhey4fidDu28mls7w1Xr94j8j7cMUQKtGtodmD/v +OZDT1v5fa9ICgQHASMZW6pG6TT0leN1sz9StxS7NAhqzeT5Ylt8kvPHi5kimF7Br6RU UNw6o5/4KFiBZaqpL108tLfjyWRZcJp6Z9JT5aggaYc105RliUSa9gDIcH6vX65dlClI 3sLw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLuH4rJrP4hRh8kped7S3iuYUlaVvs3dDEqsvzQYQZhMkd12MWN28tgqX0zK0SfJpBsT8GrMpEIZfl09A== X-Received: by 10.31.59.137 with SMTP id i131mr18602147vka.7.1484653689126; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 03:48:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 03:48:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:48:08 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11441904c145e3054648dfdf Subject: dika literi X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=6xgDa0miJbsdejMQWZ3rt6NCfpaiJ9-gZCA49JU3NWKubNUSzJcLNg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a11441904c145e3054648dfdf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Kar amiki, Pos plusa reflektado me konkluzis ke anke litero povas esar dika, se on egardas ne la tota litero dudimensione (longe e larje) ma nur lua streko undimensione. Exemple, larja A esas A havanta sat granda disto inter la extremaji di sua du inklinita "pedi", kontre ke dika A esas A havanta "dika" streko, t.e. havanta sat granda disto inter la du bordi di sua streko. Konseque, litero povas esar larja e dika, streta e dika, larja e dina, streta e dina. *Quoniam "bold"-a literi ordinare esas sat dika, od adminime plu dika kam ne-"bold"-a litero di la sama liter-tipo, forsan "dika" esa la maxim bona (o la minim mala...) solvo por tradukar "bold" en Ido, quale Arto recente sugestis (e quale Feder propozabis ja en 1920 en sua Germana-Ido lexiko). Kordiale, GN --001a11441904c145e3054648dfdf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kar amiki,
Pos plusa reflekta= do me konkluzis ke anke litero povas esar dika, se on egardas ne la tota li= tero dudimensione (longe e larje) ma nur lua streko undimensione. Exemple, = larja A esas A havanta sat granda disto inter la extremaji di sua du inklin= ita "pedi", kontre ke dika A esas A havanta "dika" stre= ko, t.e. havanta sat granda disto inter la du bordi di sua streko. Konseque= , litero povas esar larja e dika, streta e dika, larja e dina, streta e din= a.

*Quoniam "bold"-a literi ordinare esas sat dika, od adm= inime plu dika kam ne-"bold"-a litero di la sama liter-tipo, fors= an "dika" esa la maxim bona (o la minim mala...) solvo por traduk= ar "bold" en Ido, quale Arto recente sugesti= s (e quale Feder propozabis ja en 1920 en sua Germana-= Ido lexiko).

K= ordiale,

GN

=
--001a11441904c145e3054648dfdf-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4821 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 32707 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 11:52:51 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m8.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 11:52:51 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 23277 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 11:52:51 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 11:52:51 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.171 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: bqMNJDcWLDvTlurdVqkSgecaiVHwSfOg_aa9DSoKgnE_UF8h r5.l42ZBn6ygYgXS.x4HlesMykxSG9RG00XWNuSb0JvKNL8uHYwv_xvUhFrU g4QBwsUfw477y3xuTvs0H9z2Ra1HKBladJn.KZYceKFUgypArEXdQFTnE6z4 cRjY68GNGtqxcQPXEdwBR3oXCQz7sDxzstc_yhJgjv6HwjgMLYfp8Tt1a4rE afkF9u5PdDSkhsY25_z83t3mHPtiFnNW68fV2ALjpW1PrIYxY0.WwjnL6bze cAM7TMRbx4fy2LcRRH1TW0rUloRs8FmERMX4E2f.wQoeu1MgXwCLifVaMagp VXXJ0WhTv5Q7Q35jL0N7xLG0UNc5BdFT4d6tl3ucDtIa.jD5XYnkfvuuFfRI Peruu6RNXvb07Uu6.mAAiMB2etUMeUVLrskPQjH3TnElj3qvfiod.8X_QdtC NeNjhs88GtkWs4x25fRLmXL_j9RZokpWCW_Pk0sZjSeX9b3ViegEUHskNliw 486yi2pCAa_pZQmYwbJhujhTCvWs9kRJ1pv_LwsSykmtzeMF0jkBZdgRec5n pTrO.J8iM_SD68jSvMmoER3zN5xoEM.0vqqM5tm21bcHvyV4boAPmcmGbgj_ kQc81c15YGYYLKAfDHiNIhuE4g1qDjKwQfQVm8OusQHM0wCttCfc.yn2XEzj x61Q6IQUjEkPcnTNb8BJmHI.y7Fluofryl05aoOiYAqqbJacRvUHl04r.7_u nIbzua2ibgQHECgO9E7hH9FquDv_sX2cjBcwqf1ERQFZXkLtnMLu94.O5koX 0jxPN7R7kWcAHjobUY2x9vTz2tm58D5rOtGvjfy2gTtI.jlaumKPLaw5tMFB aEsN4KTXYmoc8uBA1vs.ZIbMcpjdRUU6osoamUzu3q0aUzc4_dK12WfOw8sa fETZAwXKV9Amg6.pCdCt8o2ODSoZou2DKya2qQEKjwWce5lOx123x19g4gko UbkdW0bG.Hvk0DaecfinEiewRzNQROXEtqL._UWUxyiB5gA1g90Foz.7aOp9 D1ewHw31hqSpr5SIeu.vzj11bWmeO_auEt0JlhEUZSlopfRNZhgvT9Hs9PV2 6QuXGYb9pO5f46B4yQoCoCDccIAfIe1qcK_l2cFJ_RIhRN8Pg5CDRHdbPwqC vT3goH3K5cU2IeJC9jHmHmiAktzYpybI46SxMtin6BOL3Gmghj7nbFKj539V geyc1KIlZeABPBNXu1O0ZA2PYzelZzwi98ErGCasb30BSsGcVatZoVHLu15i gA1rwOvls3bPZfjpRfJtSe08HOm1JYqsr8EolFqt5AgokH8vjDBdm333xgLB owboU.hc7GRCWtQ04WClCMeYSrGb3W0slc6DRHTj1beLIrF0.9PXhUZQ88En T2iG5lhM.UYsB3lSkT6U8JA2vOmLDT49nIUcfU.j5TlVKMYPdL1AkZHhZZ1Y aPZA8NtR8XDjnfA1dcNgaFBA9L51wTrcwKeMl1xTy50Y91PZj4HzjdksnSEM gPy9_9Dyyc0t3P5uK_9Jt4QnPdp8diq923rix.jsF6.XjbT5ZG6ia857.vO6 IhKQCCODtomZyODJrkE5HyfrWvhsi4s- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f171.google.com) (209.85.217.171) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:52:50 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f171.google.com with SMTP id i68so100807413uad.0 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 03:52:50 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=9guAnWRe6Ggnb0A+oY/a/zDLLxnNPki9Kc9I8TKICSk=; b=KrEU+UrB46XKZSRIMX2rQdjO+KcSSCHwVaI1PXteRIV/0Pxl4KoyoINzvN8kcv1JlL 0kwXulw3OH1OutYAvH+1ZF4viHUmgRiqqODNwfaOp6u4os8b2mi4tqeJmGTnptZnA7zv flma3OUG8cF7R+wdjRyKw5x44jJ5SxUJaG0qZ++bjA0ej8tUjt0gG27NWP+WmD2takvc 4c8i9yxf3kJPIGMMeZwVK9kPw/UrCNV34fgwKaSXR5zBqb2ymmZT5DCnD//cD64sqJlu +lVlHLZaUroT+JWDokbSttiQ9OLnoilpb8haN/8c8zRsh6UjvDDXA9ymwSuSlIZmEXZZ pbsw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ1uIhzKYaQd9ZUCQNTqHvNSPsBa+9abSuimfzf7UqheaAs42GvZTCrEtQxwesoKfmQjqRY+4ED5TYdXw== X-Received: by 10.176.84.146 with SMTP id p18mr2074433uaa.107.1484653970355; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 03:52:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 03:52:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:52:49 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045e1f96847c42054648f016 Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=kQYMHaeuuuhXGTGSB5l2gxwx7Ldpa8x591EX_IYn621s622zBXq0Uw X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --f403045e1f96847c42054648f016 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quon signifikas "strike out" en la koncernata feldo? Ka "desaparigar ulo sk= ribita o desegnita"? Se yes, "efacar" esas la maxim apta tradukuro, segun m= e. 2017-01-17 9:55 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto= ] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Dyer Angla-Ido havas: > > > *s[tri= ke]. out: *efacar; sur-strek-izar > > On povas vidar la logiko di amba. Tr= a- esas du-dimensionala, sur- esas > tri-dimensionala. > > ----------------= -------------- > *From:* linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on > behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolist= o] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* 16 January 2017 16:11 > *To:*= Linguolisto > *Subject:* Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor > > = > > Strikethrough: tra-strek-izar (Dyer) > > > --f403045e1f96847c42054648f016 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quon signifikas "strike ou= t" en la koncernata feldo? Ka "desaparigar ulo skribita o desegni= ta"? Se yes, "efacar" esas la maxim apta tradukuro, segun me= .

2017-01-17 9:55 GM= T+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.c= om [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= :
=C2=A0
=

Dyer Angla-Ido havas:


s[trike]. out:=C2=A0efacar; sur-strek-izar


On povas vidar la logiko di amba.=C2=A0 Tra-= esas du-dimensionala, sur- esas tri-dimensionala.

From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com <linguolisto@yah= oogroups.com> on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] &= lt;linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 16 January 2017 16:11
= To: Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por Vis= ualEditor
=C2=A0


Strikethrough: tra= -strek-izar (Dyer)

=

--f403045e1f96847c42054648f016-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4822 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 14131 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 11:52:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 11:52:53 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 4238 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 11:52:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 11:52:53 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: 7BYDX9AWLDsFGsOWa9QAF.UYi7NeqVfSYfqlyVD7AGIUnJZP 8F6xHbqmEYj6vdtiQHTPAxJAuvGRZ.PvCxUlNJeE9MlFGjPN9P44eeYkJgJ0 jxh.X5owU1qjIMGHyNjTdXpl_1FUrFTCtMUQ86TfGHW6.029BFGHOX8fxaHy ENCKcb2YkoD_aE_wDMXfkRlNXpT_GLOo36pxvQZ8GEXvw2NSjeEOsXY1PNow LXhzEGn8IB5InATkjLHzHDFcSi5yJMRaKuU2sFb.6crHrjqYIRlRdgKpQVt3 fLsDa0Ngqg.VyXRaO9ykvDQYlFh22dQRmbmuYlFO5pICSQE.sHqZzfqxb5aB VUr4Fif8inRP173VDUWATZNJJHHp4IVXekYghJeGAYT9Z9qZlqMnToKPDTqC wDT1eEoXfghBuac8LtuJzkUc8YNhYSI0s28kP79gMsSCTbKpOhjnM6sP6Kgr aDPE.VvhZ4rI_4O0eIKzA2UuVQn5oaNvypF_e2Pd7j1cfV.EGtBiwxmfrsWc ThoEocE3dMjHZf1.sN_Pz7D9IvpJ.tdguTqBuCGYiYDsyaIuDHPm132ASoJb k5RdWAjKTxMqpB.e.52nyWBT8r5chc4drVOJlPUo_LNwC_lQDoWObXJBPg8O Y835kq.IupXHnTZHrtH9a6i0G1YU0ER5Ae5MCGPATWzrOjwrmTAItDfPw_Li VF11pcN0nWqrvx5t25z9aP8c30JVdmn1TxK587NQWPsMOQ32ek0zqK5wxLuN fAtdB9SMIdb4KfXTBkKsaURzj0oAKXcqoke1.AtemYZxqVF07tr9pfEi7fP4 98LOekUh5YDiUl9LgzmpJkoLHUeWu1ID.u07HW9NHdvIqcx1vOzwVQ5kQS1z L1uf_.ZsNnZbb1dDvLO3emosWIEkQM90ihlGyTeILdlU7MlD..oL3O2Layix rCy27B51ZKWZ6F70kLn9saQgXheVgd9vbD29hiKFQQkMNORWP1hQk_85l73j PV5BO8ihh86sVlwMtQJx1pi3d4KqHXXFQqeb9AhhFdDO2kJfUHM03b5LsBCA 7fUzI0YVK1KRvO.H47TBJOfLEAXJUKt_FBze6hOkZ1UNWEpbkT35v0j5VhKh cao2bnznC8UZbHgzQDOw1We2Lyv3O18lruy5VTz32LbG9wzSzcSVC4DhAl7Q h_TQsxDIGD98EWuMon1scgjo4yYK.D2a6aTDFBYXSw5D7w-- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout01.plus.net) (84.93.230.227) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:52:53 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([80.189.103.153]) by avasout01 with smtp id ZPpn1u0013JbLC001Ppo9A; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:49:48 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=IItyMknG c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=symCNU+MJHhKGk1Qu/9u0Q==:117 a=symCNU+MJHhKGk1Qu/9u0Q==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=qV0mfD4mAAAA:8 a=1Qhj-OTkAAAA:8 a=eEeOSYSR1LH7rTvWl2gA:9 a=A5_gs-XO6k90a8Ki:21 a=rQCxMlokFPh7W0VX:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 a=mnVZ7iNJyew7AB3q5ROZ:22 a=cq4hp0u9VdKmxERt5c5W:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 11:49:50 GMT Message-ID: <2017117114950.533070@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [linguo] "swichar' e "komutar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C." Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"? Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500: Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo? Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar". Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926? 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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 12:18:11 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGw Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 12:18:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:CFD9CD1F789267EBABFE25BDCDA5AEF3AA97489E56E9BBE99BDDD4D234F090C8;UpperCasedChecksum:EC3847BB00676D3B9871F3B5D472274EF8859178AD1BED7A6393947D2589AC5A;SizeAsReceived:7844;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [EX/C+yv/wezgJ9bR005f7XGhouWKlP/M] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR02HT193;7:Hedzzyb3VuFgPZiK8VXPRF5IfkYv2sNqh+UdxliSRWziYPhLZkL3GBQw8Jaa7i7/vO5A+AyScbl/otXKNAvKpg84DXdo2yE1SYiOzGnWCss8Y9YXB9OSUvlkVkstJXxvIRpcw7CyOmkeG0Q/qBUsw+T8rTvJazwSoE2rfaXKWLktCclgbA9BnTRyMvXZVYm+mpafExZ92F6IXRYeRbvpuS+HTHICkfGzwSB3S+VDLNiRK0EqBitxn5i4hunet8HBBiWx1D2Sf0BhhDen9eJihTyYcOqHCakM2UIJpcBFuxVgP5R9lEg5Jdh1qIgj18X9lpfkH14vQW/pL5R4TFjwoxL7yJwPQPccN1MP9eAEf98+J4EZA9HKGhtd8gBSVdf1gtL1vM3qYYStQTLPXc4RCstE4DwnzTykkDEVd4L5QWlzVOQfuSkjVrCntGC7+SVDpYs0ZCBm+MDOhdO+4nGGwQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR02HT193;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:en; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0d667d73-db4c-4ba6-3ed3-08d43ed2e789 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:VE1EUR02HT193; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:VE1EUR02HT193;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:VE1EUR02HT193; x-forefront-prvs: 01901B3451 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB1397733BFC0D68013455328CA47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jan 2017 12:18:11.3427 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR02HT193 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jan 2017 12:18:13.0017 (UTC) FILETIME=[C5FEC890:01D270BB] Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=tGKR8jnfl3dRqc9MrMIhfN2H-Ob_h7r_Gr3rSEWzP4A X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB1397733BFC0D68013455328CCA47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Strike out" en texto-redakto, esas efacar per streko, SUR o TRA vorto o fr= azo efacenda. Me supozas ke amba esus korekta, do koncernas prefero. Ka = ni preferas SUR o TRA? ________________________________ From: linguolisto= @yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Neves= gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 17 Ja= nuary 2017 11:52 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por V= isualEditor Quon signifikas "strike out" en la koncernata feldo? Ka "des= aparigar ulo skribita o desegnita"? Se yes, "efacar" esas la maxim apta tra= dukuro, segun me. 2017-01-17 9:55 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.c= om [linguolisto] >: Dyer Angla-Ido havas: s[trike]. out:= efacar; sur-strek-izar On povas vidar la logiko di amba. Tra- esas du-di= mensionala, sur- esas tri-dimensionala. ________________________________ F= rom: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com > on behalf of Gi= lles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] > Sent= : 16 January 2017 16:11 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonat= a por VisualEditor Strikethrough: tra-strek-izar (Dyer) --_000_DB5PR03MB1397733BFC0D68013455328CCA47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

"Strike out&qu= ot; en texto-redakto, esas efacar per streko, SUR o TRA vorto o frazo = efacenda.


Me supozas ke amba esus korekta, do koncernas= prefero.  Ka ni preferas SUR o TRA?



From: linguolisto@yah= oogroups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Nev= es gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]
= Sent: 17 January 2017 11:52
To: Linguolisto
Subje= ct: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
 


Quon s= ignifikas "strike out" en la koncernata feldo? Ka "desaparig= ar ulo skribita o desegnita"? Se yes, "efacar" esas la maxim= apta tradukuro, segun me.

2017-01-17 9:55 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] &= lt;linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
&= nbsp;

Dyer Angla-Ido havas:


s[trike]. out: efacar; sur-strek-izar
<= /p>


On povas vidar la logiko di amba.  Tra- esas du-d= imensionala, sur- esas tri-dimensionala.

From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com <linguolisto@yahoogroups.c= om> on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>
Sent: 16 January 2017 16:11
To: Li= nguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor<= /font>
 


Strikethrough: tra-strek-iza= r (Dyer)



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Sur-kolor-izar? On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 07:19 Jam= es Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] w= rote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Strike out" en texto-red= akto, esas efacar per streko, SUR o TRA vorto o > frazo efacenda. > > > > >= > > > Me supozas ke amba esus korekta, do koncernas prefero. Ka ni prefer= as SUR > o TRA? > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > = *From:* linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on > beha= lf of Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@y= ahoogroups.com> > > > *Sent:* 17 January 2017 11:52 > > > > > *To:* Linguol= isto > > > *Subject:* Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor > > > > = > > > > > > Quon signifikas "strike out" en la koncernata feldo? Ka "desapa= rigar ulo > skribita o desegnita"? Se yes, "efacar" esas la maxim apta trad= ukuro, segun > > me. > > > > > > > > > > 2017-01-17 9:55 GMT+00:00 James Ch= andler > > idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] : >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dyer Angla-Ido havas: > > > > > > > > = *s[trike]. out: *efacar; sur-strek-izar > > > > > > > > > > On povas vidar = la logiko di amba. Tra- esas du-dimensionala, sur- esas > tri-dimensionala= . > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > *From:* > > linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of > Gilles-Phi= lippe Morin > > gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] > > > *Sent:* 16 January 2017 16:11 > > > *To:* Linguolisto > > > *Subj= ect:* Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor > > > > > > > > > > > > = > Strikethrough: tra-strek-izar (Dyer) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --94eb2c1cd53e2f9087054649f99a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, quo esus 'highlight'? Sur-kolor-izar?
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 07:19 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote= :




















=









=C2= =A0



















=









"Strike out" en texto-redakto,=C2=A0esas efac= ar per streko, SUR o TRA vorto o frazo efacenda.








= Me supozas ke amba esus korekta, do koncernas prefero.=C2=A0 Ka ni preferas= SUR o TRA?













From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gn= eves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.co= m>


Sent: 1= 7 January 2017 11:52


=

To: Linguolisto
<= br>
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por = VisualEditor









Quon signifikas "strike out" en la koncernata feld= o? Ka "desaparigar ulo skribita o desegnita"? Se yes, "efaca= r" esas la maxim apta tradukuro, segun

me.








2017-01-17 9:55 GMT+00:00 James Chand= ler

idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] &= lt;linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:






=C2= =A0











Dyer Angla-Ido havas:








s[trike].= out:=C2=A0efacar; sur-strek-izar








On povas vidar la logiko di amba.=C2=A0 Tra- esas du-dimensionala= , sur- esas tri-dimensionala.






<= br>


From:

linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> o= n behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin

gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolis= to] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>


Sent: 16 January 2017 16:11


To: Linguolisto


Subject: Re: [linguo] Fra= zi bezonata por VisualEditor

=C2=A0<= /div>









Strikethrough: tra-strek-izar (Dye= r)







=












=









<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">



















=


































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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:35:02 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDrg== Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:35:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:4229C79D8BB48009C5B358A286A14C4A56E2EBA2026DA46940C0D005391F62DF;UpperCasedChecksum:BAE1228341558331E598648D3E03873184AFC75948C228EC7F02AF8A68276F16;SizeAsReceived:8085;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [Zv6NodHTXNBNtZygS/SUZT5GIUfGV3RI] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR03HT034;7:LjBbXyjV0pn3WDflL1EkJajCs+M+rh0wqOMHBcxFc5uGhXabV23HOg2KqKG7IIgPTyjP0peSlcbwzOVQEe342e+yDdP2m94WcATaHegzg3ewacpxlYPxLMAvS2VZDr3ybO9fR1fEZlknVdJKpotwG+6vB5I2EvzrQtg6t5oJyRHDws/tK555tqJ6cZhRulReqBQ07xWQZQDGPb+Enhq7b+3xZY7sxLDupdsfaffMj3IAeST+NSAEAEv8S+5+YZVfOctetVTHj8c9edmMGwDwB3LQrVndcFbdq+UaxVJC8af6NFfA9q17P7aLdTqFvASyoCpaVkCVSThq7VJ07DmcRUdy1WwKufvVaExer/8XyoMxueq0OpjYXOzW6zVzHVmnppE2GDFGC6f4JElEq3I0u7bSOU4X8ow+XvKEHBFOQvDWdXBnJZ2T50GtFbx3FO1n2C9i2J6aAu/Y16qUPoHiQQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR03HT034;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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y=KAs_W8-SJpOx0R3L6s5rd35cybjAKEa1hTjSrMHg3Kc X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: James Chandler Malgre la desfacileso e mea multa questioni, regardez la nuna progreso-stangeto: [cid:b59e3a1d-b1ae-401e-bbf3-574de31178c9] Ni havas nur dek frazi tradukenda, ek qui tri esas teknikala frazi solvenda da me. Per via helpo ni povos solvar la cetera sep: Bold - ka konsento? Strikethrough - SUR o TRA? Subscript Superscript Cut - Ektranchar? Cancel - Anular? Clipboard Predanko! From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4826 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 11351 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 13:39:50 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 13:39:50 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 5638 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 13:39:50 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 13:39:50 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.173 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 4OE2lg0WLDs9Y2LXuo09NPq9LoZPACu0pVqA9g4wRVzvpUgS 9aKZywcW_E98QCZ82YECCUugY0F6TM7Ymj_4XTQXwubuFN7KPKwFr7USESvE 5EVxDRO3Ani69jFlbV7nHYUMar_yB8pYH3tY20v.LYuCoAWOeWzXC51saDmF _ybRBk5f64kAiMXK9yuAEeFXa_1I1_T4S7Fmw36nVphVQ3Ii7QtTCq12RW08 ihwZnnVcgbQZK9q4i55YsCEbmKpOZljY7OCYJ6VAdLElPtywZpYlZOdgciFG _.0KmV6DBR_4OXZcXhqDO6me9m0pLQGzQsl9c5GN8HZQRtay4haovvHQjR5L ytgvcvE21C80csOgk0E05mG0D0Hjmd62mZd9.tlA_uSO8IL4B8u7XU7YHPDn .rs.4f3Rdv6FtgFzLjmkTf7bznvueO1vXNp8Jlwj9yFAAx04aMhrF43Bjaz1 n6lRmCKAiVlEFpV66gyqwEz4dDtrl_ZYrKp7APfXeGkt7LG1O9o9Kudg_W6H aR_q1rO5UR8.Uhf_TXidUH8B_lu3R1THa7p7cM6vIB1hUsqHIs4ugCPtdXQZ pxsGK7t1Peh3pDpvVxMpqGnCSudxzHDhNZVSegxYA8qc.GjGz4CRemAJdSk9 U2qSYH06BXd09V62g4NKUHmCA5VKHGOll2ASZyPJmfX_Z1UOXbEX_tRsX6EI _BrrzFNrpy4LxkUJ0u9Qq_RzJVISI4D0Dn1RaUYN1rS4Lp10Xulq9XneJ9E0 0Li8cRpfgQH2KLeXgXp7W_iOSxkIKFe7oCQOvXqVb9k2De84Uc_HRjz0LQxF _uNrcZXIMI.t0vk8qngPaj7zQOf.p8STPc5mQ4PaJmjPQkKv5nziH82OpCE2 sLHKt_nzeC5lr8KTwPHByS7bLXMTTSKjVWrBXY7xFvNfFGDdnNPjYQvSvOvA homARoiNcNIYD.GMrvObfEo1khinJPct7U779fDO17O.OhUdMhztV8SODTk_ IihANxxYdcaDgNNSZMCHbXSLmSeRZA9H7pgLzwWNG5f8pLq1bMFsb1EkNTb3 qJ6NIROkQfmgreJyyPaBCMOuSpe3TYJi5V3PT2ts.hmsPNUDR9EGlW0ae5mN IwTNu.fxPgYA_QRnvZdxLaYtTOdn0_uH.77R71uxpAa20gA9HL0f9zfvqFpt Uzx5o2SF7Tm95FHyC5C1jkX_EA0CyGu8LvjWOOACOteEOL7Chlav3g6JKoNR mx2EkU.vLomMuCZeOiQ3XC8ytQ5IDyzolXGEAawCkwcS1lG3sbdTxWzbDokF WyxvsP0rly03DdbVKigHcgMVXbMfwrIthbfzOpmLGNqukl3ohzeMOXzk3.x9 TsSku2GBVAVv01x8zsgTKrtFzochP6WX5Gsrz1hvsT6h0qJCCkR11HjZVyKs 8Qd6szd_b9JnRupP71ABMKufESthLqCFJq0N6y6xoJtbpO0mIwqOm8al3HY6 DkUjyuPX5Wv5BTnwyNS5RPS2u7fcGh4sGg9OOrK4xTbdGtMYOjcP6kYfXdHg x3gCdnD7N3UMtPLa6WOcGq1DY6P5zbDyfcQBFHzZqVVNRjebVLzuXaalh7M5 X3kuU6uWZBm_aT8M2mjDXCW0HmRi39w5owerCsKakA-- Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f173.google.com) (209.85.217.173) by mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:39:50 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 35so102734348uak.1 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 05:39:50 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=13ML1jT2cXxdRRxjZziCKLlmLXxKFB2+lgUgfVuLob8=; b=is34KhHnRGilU2D28PilDZaTAyrcD5cceBHgIGrMkhDpFuIOS2HPh5xibAzp0xVlnX ypgrejtHdS4PNnolKx8jxw1kpDLbZSxzQi5gj0uB029boZ1xIxPYirO8tOqOq5S5a5ld FfMmo3YtUuHgOnP+jOcjzEcHJR8jSTqUqLIfco42awiDCox2xuDcGjzGHLBUiUpRmlkN uWzJ/XNaavj9xyVwbwa6sBBwU22kz/dExRSqh73WL4rxA73F28dM6RKx4Nuk0eECIegL 8ZSjxxsrFe9eNqpXCd9WJdRONRL8jFAs5Agh1oPwZQBBuU5uWI0ZUBaosthoAeozswmS 1FUA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKsCeDy7HqDSLDjpB75CGcO3cLOZ59rtB1ozjuYagM2XpaimmZqkYWILcYfHvOgaXXW4gVD3JxM7aQfUg== X-Received: by 10.176.0.169 with SMTP id 38mr19913599uaj.46.1484660389758; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 05:39:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 05:39:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:39:49 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c169da24cd2605464a6feb Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=p8Uhy5Yi8I1QfTp4N8ma6xAyk7lNyEOVzvzOfhek8iQuRccD3lZ2hg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a11c169da24cd2605464a6feb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Semblas a me ke "trastrekizar" esas plu expresiva: on ya quaze "vidas" la s= treko trairanta la vorto. Anke en Esperanto on uzas tal expresuro ("trastre= ki"). Pluse, se la ago "srike out" ne desaparigas la koncernata vorto ma n= ur trastrekizas ol, "efacar" ne esas apta. On rezervez olca por tradukar "d= elete". 2017-01-17 12:18 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [ling= uolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > "Strike out" en texto-redak= to, esas efacar per streko, SUR o TRA vorto o > frazo efacenda. > > > Me su= pozas ke amba esus korekta, do koncernas prefero. Ka ni preferas SUR > o T= RA? > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* linguolisto@yahoogroups.= com on > behalf of Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves6= 4@gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* 17 Jan= uary 2017 11:52 > *To:* Linguolisto > *Subject:* Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonat= a por VisualEditor > > > > Quon signifikas "strike out" en la koncernata fe= ldo? Ka "desaparigar ulo > skribita o desegnita"? Se yes, "efacar" esas la = maxim apta tradukuro, segun > me. > > 2017-01-17 9:55 GMT+00:00 James Chand= ler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> = >> >> Dyer Angla-Ido havas: >> >> >> *s[trike]. out: *efacar; sur-strek-iza= r >> >> On povas vidar la logiko di amba. Tra- esas du-dimensionala, sur- = esas >> tri-dimensionala. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* l= inguolisto@yahoogroups.com on >> behalf of Gi= lles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] < >> linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com> >> *Sent:* 16 January 2017 16:11 >> *To:* Linguolisto >> *Subje= ct:* Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor >> >> >> >> Strikethrough= : tra-strek-izar (Dyer) >> >> > > > > --001a11c169da24cd2605464a6feb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Semblas a me ke "tras= trekizar" esas plu expresiva: on ya quaze "vidas" la streko = trairanta la vorto. Anke en Esperanto on uzas tal expresuro ("trastrek= i").

Plus= e, se la ago "srike out" ne desaparigas la koncernata vorto ma nu= r trastrekizas ol, "efacar" ne esas apta. On rezervez olca por tr= adukar "delete".


2017-01-17 12:18 GMT+00:00 James= Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

"Strike out" en texto-redakto,=C2=A0esas efacar per strek= o, SUR o TRA vorto o frazo efacenda.


Me supozas ke amba= esus korekta, do koncernas prefero.=C2=A0 Ka ni preferas SUR o TRA?


From: linguolisto@yaho= ogroups.com <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gon=C3=A7alo N= eves gneves64@gmail= .com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 17 Ja= nuary 2017 11:52
To: Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo= ] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
=C2=A0

=
= Quon signifikas "str= ike out" en la koncernata feldo? Ka "desaparigar ulo skribita o d= esegnita"? Se yes, "efacar" esas la maxim apta tradukuro, se= gun me.

2017-= 01-17 9:55 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolist= o@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Dyer Angla-Ido havas:


s[trike]. out:=C2= =A0efacar; sur-= strek-izar


On povas vidar la logiko di amb= a.=C2=A0 Tra- esas du-dimensionala, sur- esas tri-dimensionala.

From:= lingu= olisto@yahoogroups.com <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gille= s-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>
Sen= t: 16 January 2017 16:11
To: Linguolisto
Subject:= Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
=C2=A0


Strikethrough: tra-strek-izar (Dyer)
=




=

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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:08:19 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroAACxa7 Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:08:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: ,, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:9CA4E416330D859AFF391233054FF35EB5FD6FC96E511CA303EE1571988F5C9E;UpperCasedChecksum:5C58972AD43B6B9ECCCA7C2C8949EC4F2106A19E050709A656FA38BF706D3465;SizeAsReceived:8122;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [SsjIo6A/xZkbm8uOWCqnyBasiQy96jUE] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;DB5EUR03HT065;7:AesOGT/ELpEj3g9JA2Fit9ixJSMTCAfnX5QNODO4Ny44/vy00s3edy6R6o+ats9e8X/Jf/frhKQ6yisKcO4nmjIKkvZGNdnTL4aBMutmOuby7nYOqsKxM3DWVl0NZS3j0HKpy7Zr/Rg9PgWc2Vsz875hVOXCXPxQPpMETbiXgYEkXNwwMdGRUI4ebkjXD9z5Uo9O56z/g//4VPyZ1K5jXNiIm3EZZE1yGYR3VNkBJ9eU87emgM2LtQ6B+Q97/D4SzljXl3GLkJuls2D5r98JH/LImKvnlhNVJKh+BrQ8H8JYpZvafjZPHpf6A9qggxaelV6c99ZN0qjb7yFSYxG8YmUwyfsbGIRFSZ0xNiuzROQBDqtzAq0wFuYWFbsgqe9mUakWug26QXIm46qvuX26WYwuz3dXFAOUGaC8PJ4RBJ/I/bqmFZScQfLSvNktzzzcCzcmr8mHRL7D7VwrXNZHMA== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:DB5EUR03HT065;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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u=24528831; y=l75mm0RWRI9lPRJbxGosIbvUMAwx0MVCFSYDulTRrhg X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_004_DB5PR03MB139781B8AED39AA86FC2F1F00A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB139781B8AED39AA86FC2F1F0A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" --_000_DB5PR03MB139781B8AED39AA86FC2F1F00A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me riprobas la stangeto: [cid:390fc557-4aee-45e0-a898-2cd9cfd8ec28] e p= rovizas kuntexto por Cut: ol esas Cut di la trio: Cut Copy Paste _____= ___________________________ From: James Chandler Sent: = 17 January 2017 13:35 To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [linguo]= Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Malgre la desfacileso e mea multa questi= oni, regardez la nuna progreso-stangeto: --_000_DB5PR03MB139781B8AED39AA86FC2F1F00A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Me riprobas la stan= geto:




e provizas kuntexto por Cu= t: ol esas Cut di la trio:  Cut  Copy  Paste



<= div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
From: James Chandler
Sent: 17 January 201= 7 13:35
To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: = [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
 

Malgre la= desfacileso e mea multa questioni, regardez la nuna progreso-stangeto= :

--_000_DB5PR03MB139781B8AED39AA86FC2F1F00A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- --_004_DB5PR03MB139781B8AED39AA86FC2F1F00A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4828 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 63378 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 15:46:47 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 15:46:47 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 22882 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 15:46:47 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 15:46:47 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.54 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: zo7POwUWLDtvfN6JVcNK6e3Rh69li0H3aT0S0OafosZs9zXX H18bjVKpkszUGKNwvjXmZt1ITBkCBTt6mIMQICzj5Hm_87tvSiEt1faIc5GH D.Vo3VYeTqy90uccsWSSWBgHxkowUPEslQhCccQENOe2oQe3DWlNKoEO7NXf f3_Um_xU23_GpQR66qD0bncOMlsNBv.YB9N5Tmc1i3gSYWPRqeFgPjBxUsbC QRy1aoAMc_tLcTLBAo5k_9u8LdhKgfkROLJAciac5Gw647samUFqjRvnD1H8 l14s8WySWToc_rXlkpH6Q.GGbqtAHhgNOCRUe6mV3uD9PvRR2os6krD8E5_E nzfBn5nnLL.Bf1gKb02Rg39BZlUcPwN2r6LHqQGkhd7dN2j_eG3VqM0KvA6V .evr3NKTZGqDTxPsqOlAc8qpA1ZQThJGFxEyU.yrG9q22AfmY1bxByyABqOu el9Fa7j._pLe322tvlkSssrhas15yTIO1lSHCme4XEtHN59YI_tdOPBE70qH zatC7jg3ejkwpJe2cBlLe2IghclbIlJ.wFGvLw.TkuNtIHqprtx9SiegEj6. 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Tre bona!

2017-01-17 14:08 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Me riprobas la stang= eto:




e provizas kuntexto por Cut: ol esas Cut di= la trio: =C2=A0Cut =C2=A0Copy =C2=A0Paste



From: James Chandler <idojc@hotmail.com>
Sen= t: 17 January 2017 13:35
To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com
Su= bject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
=C2=A0<= /div>

Malgre la desfacileso e mea multa questioni, regar= dez la nuna=C2=A0progreso-stangeto:


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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 15:58:22 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroAACxa7gAAaF4CAAAKaTw== Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 15:58:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:B330AE71120C12DCE954E77BB2886DB8A8E30ACB3BF4221FF71CA63A41EBF959;UpperCasedChecksum:2DAFC2C5F71F243228BDFF7DE39E33F873E55A34AF7ACE59181334856D782AB2;SizeAsReceived:8343;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [aMqSkM5rdC686LhHmHQw5sPl6yJ99O6m] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR03HT129;7:TuX/mBhCNHBulVQL9m5a28T9r3P1ESFHZSxtqugMUfr7apQuEG4+5fGh/Qyu1yucD3IQ1bnjszGkNRxerKTOBgbIn8ax68yGndShaeYgJXvWr5iqXw2MAkx2zjDztYRe4ptusmsDS6dVdtKzWr6nJLbVUv2S2Ot8SPbgMqdByRPA/eBs2qVFO+JppcgV5KgsC458+hEcMTJ4QO9aG3eJ3fbPY2fhIzS09W+ICwKoJTaBOQIcWVefX8HI40+Whj7tAlLwvc5O/Cl2OT04J9EfI7LRL/K2v6rwnhNgLXMLd8haF60SaaaUcWj7XKLkPeD/iZtSw+YcYefX3IhVgnM0vXF0rNCHUDszPqLJE20fHrrZ4RvuVyHM74Z2n31KvHCoAxoOiWG/a0lD64RHGVruAflId5DlJo84A8kqmTmyM10rdr3QFq9ztN301EOuHnp1uhVerJ33NK/CozT9HcS7eg== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR03HT129;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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u=24528831; y=4eibQT0QfciFWOhbb-BGDbYqvXbwl2ZFdBbfzOjTALk X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB139799975CB063F87227D2A44A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, e me nun solvis la tri teknikala frazi; ma ni ne repozez sur nia lauri= ! Ni ankore havas sep desfacila problemi solvenda. Idei: Clipboard - Pi= nchilo-planketo. O simple papero-planketo? Cut - Extraktar? Cancel - Nih= iligar? Anular aparas en Wikivortaro, me ne altraloke, do me dubitas pri = olua oficaleso. --_000_DB5PR03MB139799975CB063F87227D2A44A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes, e me nun solvi= s la tri teknikala frazi; ma ni ne repozez sur nia lauri!


=

Ni ankore havas sep desfacila problemi solvenda. Idei:


=

Clipboard - Pinchilo-planketo.  O simple papero-planketo?

Cu= t - Extraktar?

Cancel - Nihiligar?


Anular aparas= en Wikivortaro, me ne altraloke, do me dubitas pri olua oficaleso.




--_000_DB5PR03MB139799975CB063F87227D2A44A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4830 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 43643 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 17:00:35 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m14.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 17:00:35 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 27340 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 17:00:35 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 17:00:35 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.171 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: WGry734WLDv3sG8Lm4nbh3m1pX8IU2Tp9m.rt4KdTpKBUQO0 _q_Tsb.v2mOMUq.p_c6nWaRtiuzPeOuYB43qiR8Xl8RZn6svHsk6D1RERjk7 2kG4DhphRORlVuikKixj4lQrCTusZXNrlI2BV6d88R8S1tnV.mJZXugcS4rd mBwbb95lEqSuL7BoSeVQMZmgoEmhF7ghFJCxLoQwXF8u9zq96AIFqevjAij8 wlXTjawVA3CqTaC9pQoZX2zhJr9tQOSaKUEROVq7ECO6soL1DS.35XwM8pyU 4GBGPv7lFNMdcMxR2CG0Ng9l1AIdhjYv_ZUh.mW4JXFC3hiV03oRJ53qFIXF dDSvT0UvVUrp6l3k8wn5qq09QFEbPi9Z5REvg3tpR8OYoSM29g_rJBWJW8G5 c8CexuSEHcxP8WnFhNMN0VnIWjWfl3vcPLHYH0BfmGc.uXgdQkhn7pgVtyqZ 5rQYXptcBnynt65dH_ufoEPKToJ3e_UFuplPN6w6aj2g.ml2WPPPfKMNIcZ1 AW5pdp.55tB54SM25qUP9uIPaW32VhctzoewA2.0E_nJAhJh_Zh3F2SAhIAj x8PDRtIYoexAV67zxSY4HBOE_3bMCLsYdbf8sZyGuZmZiA3OUds4VwQX2cNd DyrPvk6e14qc4bKTQviGq4w1wWbYPxu8QfrFa.iur_JwU2SDSrprQucg4VV. 4LPl0A9iElP.h4px7gmOMMmte8XZktmx.uoRa7O2UNIc._hO5j2bMVAseety PyOIPRDX6e2qZ3VgzMxkwDpey9eiMXIpFq48aeh_UU0Wywl1qTL.gZg2NSdr BQH8oqQEzAYKS3.Mz0s2G7Qp8BmenL5Z_JVlK9NnikKzUguipbsp8ELBP.p8 gP1GdTJ.p6Al2IPmLmbQUO0D8cJfqqr5.bdIxAtmetm5ESSRa9M_OHQKIfM6 m_To2h4UwHZFlwUgyYKJbNfHdoEv33pgCFf6MejPXYWhVfz7XTk8aYhlzjPq G52ytuLIYdlzYCKzsxdwvs9VfGfIWyCeATtskrN.K0veXYJ3g8lVl1N.GU50 WwrxCw0rvZbqlTgiB8G88ySCWGJO6owedghI5gpiXaECtXZKpWdjX51BXVg3 tP0vet1Ihzv5eO89xmBQmj8Yg6hnjS8bnW1Cz.U4_EgwbjO9d.54wddcBAqu xrwESxOfu88RD5nGBYm8d9iqAwJwDPseksUBgEmbCl8cWhEHRV1vWxKTFf68 OjMfHOEJlxej6PmKL3jdJEX0uhL_Vmq2lb.qeIbDhg-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f171.google.com) (209.85.217.171) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 17:00:35 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f171.google.com with SMTP id i68so107243010uad.0 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:00:35 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=dbRkSOGyaJQ6lKmeD79TFv0pBEKdyxpi9gbno7us0MA=; b=e0GD8NPY+JCHbSmB2ZjoDHiijSRuySHmSL2YkpJPLUHOHjvKkJM2rk4f/C57BayQTQ mJDispwGtltIKJoRrbad1HFSyu/udsPVtnDb8d/6kvSZ2l0ZjGrKrIdvhBOZ+7CsPFAM 3io9++UMshoHubqFJl4ufVF0rzVol1AmR15Bu/q5D57XxWAbXpmtgZb9MEjp2rv8gYtT uBVzdHQlX4DdXCfIZwJJ08usXOe91OIqhIRok6EmCGIegRz2V6mW9v8oCASqIrjIF2Io rfVeJKWPqiG5jM1dIBRlleNVhUGlCj2g+4lEyIv+tP8hyQdQFyhQkpdJgUL4tq7rQNa+ DKtA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLJpq0fI7lysmA4xntsSFFwrdYSSLG8t6z+Tj30SpNQ7UloHYk4Mah9DJnN+wcWxxUoKs3ldr5BiBDYZg== X-Received: by 10.176.82.130 with SMTP id v2mr16895755uav.62.1484672434778; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:00:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:00:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 17:00:34 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c18fe0c15425f05464d3d76 Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=MHx3m-jitHlLP5poQBlB-kLAdXQPy_IrO07HhfYTD-JYEC4jPQisbg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c18fe0c15425f05464d3d76 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1) Pri "clipboard". La AFGHIR-tradukuri interdivergas: A: *clipboard* (=C2= =ABpinchilo-planketo=C2=BB) F: *presse-papiers* (=C2=ABpaper-presilo=C2=BB)= H: *portapapeles* (=C2=ABpaper-portilo=C2=BB) I: *appunti* (=C2=ABnoti=C2= =BB) G: *Zwischenablage* (=C2=ABinterdepozeyo=C2=BB) R: =D0=B1=D1=83=D1=84= =D0=B5=D1=80 =D0=BE=D0=B1=D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=B0 (=C2=ABkambio-bufro=C2=BB= ) Me preferas la Germana solvo ("interdepozeyo"), nam ol esas plu "transpa= ranta" kam le cetera e donas ideo pri la reala funciono di "clipboard". En = parolata linguo suficus dicar "depozeyo". 2) "anular" esas oficala ja de 1= 949 (*Lexiko di nova vorti*, da Camiel De Cock, 1988, yene definita: =C2=AB= deklarar kom nevalida=C2=BB). Tamen ol mankas che Pesch. 3) Yes, "extrakt= ar" esas bona tradukuro di "cut". GN 2017-01-17 15:58 GMT+00:00 James Ch= andler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >= > Yes, e me nun solvis la tri teknikala frazi; ma ni ne repozez sur nia > = lauri! > > > Ni ankore havas sep desfacila problemi solvenda. Idei: > > > C= lipboard - Pinchilo-planketo. O simple papero-planketo? > > Cut - Extrakta= r? > > Cancel - Nihiligar? > > > Anular aparas en Wikivortaro, me ne altral= oke, do me dubitas pri olua > oficaleso. > > > > > > ---------------------= --------- > > --94eb2c18fe0c15425f05464d3d76 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --94eb2c18fe0c15425f05464d3d76-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4831 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 18832 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 17:50:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m7.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 17:50:26 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 31573 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 17:50:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 17:50:26 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.42 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 7HtUXb4WLDtWMbNYTsovNcQ3bxjoSOZRBThxMSAnKE1I4Q77 R4UxiVv87J2Rnl4sWDTFtEffAYn_ac5fd_nc5CPn7su40j8gJoGRGWni8Vre jHwL.lmmJk9uBp2depBDCIld0Y7U5QfzDw15olNtHOryywEKtzjp9QjVQVNj sYL.qBhVjGTv5RpoWaA9w4RiLPXhQ9fbfVvG7gfRH523tysavBQiWsF38IZf kOdj5AUisK1xpWKRH_0a7Xg_Owy2aldonetKcmWvykg3kMKJ5060keLXi3jN OU2gugU0d8bBgz1cD0YkP1Rx74eqgG0FicJsuqIWJqne2OjIMwz.JIgBPIMl TkohhWA5zba6HED5OwrYE5C2YRXoi0fBU829XgOf0oxFc2V1Jc4VEnRhKwYP SWSu3c1c5OqzCE8AMGVUBg5vKBQOFpJ2bJttHLxKq1khlGJNR.CHbhCPlxr6 HQI86AdPBV3tA7LyNMrDOVeUXiCi1qOgzfaHZaPE._yqU5xlDA3ECl5_9HD1 ozelMX5H.Sv_ifO8vdC.G3AoNos7ZpBygT3T5TsyCdglmtu.IY8e71v_eB4m d.3hMlixFXB.17z2eTxrKJCBVj3b71xsyV9ByNXZOvtlQN4nKW6xOA4ByrHW LzAiatuE4iEvy7XQ3mzKKkJPk0G7eXBu.D93tFTbpRufl51r6fHfxNq_9vxl NVu56XS3JV8tXjxNXtV4VPu_ZnCOIU6RxEyVVGGNAKb3uhm3FxgStwith5OL Zn4mqZ3O_z0F4XG.qWgEKYU2JxGyTf_795FapKefbmQeaisDThkZzeoLM0PB 4F3VcWNm6eS17_zcLA1JMb91ni4vljcs7D3bC6oC66OmFUbUB_aOhrBGnGbX 6F5O2UuX8igjDL1VODG85ZuxCm4QOZ_GcxbpNQaAAdMcLO1avQ4bYnOoJCTr rE0.PPck7ziT134ooZemLMfROnsy0YI.RgM1JlvtQ5Igb_eFta3.gA7PX5hw hK0HSJiZhNOxvXkrO0mclAfiA5_Xew1u8Cq69uEiwC1Ls79kqfUOy.vrIWW1 Ie.UPsZIbCQjuSRcfuQSyBV2l1Et9XhLo_C6o8GyqgqD2pq5IvYIM3PJzqoR KFrY_sbpeHslJD5soj1CVWiKtw7l7urPmBOHOtZ8wkaKZLAlCUx2OeyTMJwC 5enBDiHh8sfps1rb21_B5iBwTaJK0RdSpDuOp2R5fUC4ToER_xEZRGmHIlWF EVGfogVazR5iqasZjVfu_6nUXs6seThrBSFnohJ5wti492nm8Lu.0qioKeSK QsrBuHvbWKi3emVJObJkqq_sYw9rw9ycLPhjQjxIMJWFwPvv6ttrccKsE_TQ 9TcCJHUE7z.j4FfEa.oSpOnPo..cBYkWU2bRoG2OtVLKMnEgIF4OeApUDFef NVeELW6.7dTX_UyWV6xJuptKBxHSNlG.ZzNdFg0B8GcX9Js5jUujVTeLnnjR qdp7Q2mbXBcTZh41hqcn9pKwGuWVzkrXEtN8UCnTvNFYgfl6JByjQ93me7He zGPOVZF8vZFtvkc6kb_RE91b.MlrGRzhz2l4gaqTS2ZkYJequ.3xBsstchlX AI0G.3OJpoKf3FrT9MQ4 Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f42.google.com) (209.85.215.42) by mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 17:50:26 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f42.google.com with SMTP id v186so114570957lfa.1 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:50:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=XOgKmJNyH77VWYpCXhZ6Z0iEhArdcgCZM3jCnXUSPUw=; b=ZJs/dd+FZBk/umGD84EKGW1t9ChfulIZ39Ye/XJwE/bRrz/GlMqY9xbayWFqgpBTig +gcIkC/HbJ04jGiQHnSy14J5Ccd4M0oEy/0v6PO5L89Ao8iLO/xWLHSbiYWK4AdCv551 PpTE8ntfYsQ4aeeH5aHiT67gzPr117E4D4YpO94hvLKtreO5OV0L4SOpGy6vb1Xxs2bR sFEWzHwRV0eiNh93+ko7YO8Qqe+MIf3nfn/CKdQ36hEyU53WIIWrWnAqDe0MBt4kThrC 95wzmPp1dwK2X06T2GQ0OHR5AxukXE6x/e+mLS2rQ8mC+4fzR0XW8ddF8xcqsdrLNT3y +GoA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJvaKyIhUVnlIQ/QIpEiqmB29e2tGk6D9f52G+VaMVer6L0onp0d0ee6c933JeMvMwanY3bybCIIbKkSA== X-Received: by 10.25.145.89 with SMTP id y25mr8980748lfj.102.1484675425644; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:50:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 09:50:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 12:50:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1cd53e5a361705464defe7 Subject: Re: [linguo] dika literi X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --94eb2c1cd53e5a361705464defe7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tre bone! Me suportas sive *dika*, sive *grosa*. Ma me ne aceptos *larja*. = La tre logikoza Louis Couturat ipsa uzis "dika literi" en un ek sua verki:= http://numelyo.bm-lyon.fr/f_view/BML:BML_00GOO0100137001105355841?vue=3D 3= &svue=3Dsimple Fakte, lu mem skribis parenteze "egiptiana", pro la Franca = termino tipografala "=C3=A9gyptien": http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/%C3%A9g= yptien Pri tua antea questioni: "tenua voco" ne signifikas "akuta voco". = tenua voco =3D "filet de voix": voix t=C3=A9nue, que l'on entend =C3=A0 pei= ne http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/filet "tenua vaporo" =3D tenua substanco= =3D "substance t=C3=A9nue": Qui est peu dense, peu consistant. http://www.= cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3%A9nue Omna dicionarii quin me kontrolis tradukas = "tenua" a la Franca per "t=C3=A9nu(e)", *sen plusa detalo o restrikto*. Me = do poke komprenas pro quo tu kredas, ke "tenua" esas plu preciza kam "t=C3= =A9nu(e): http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3%A9nu Simile, semblas ke la v= orto "grosa" probas imitar la Franca "gros", tam libere kam posible. Yen ex= emplo ek la Kompleta Gramatiko: *Por ke vu povez pagar ta debajo, oportas k= e vu kunprenez sat grosa sumo de pekunio.* Nu, semblas a me ke nule relata= s du dimensioni (o tri) hike. To esas simpla traduko di "une assez *grosse*= somme d'argent". Altra exemplo, ek la KGD: *Po quante vu vendas ta flori?= la senco esus: kad vu vendas li grandaquante, mikraquante, grose o detale?= * Yen "grose" signifikas "en gros" e "detale" signifikas "en d=C3=A9tail".= Simpla, ka ne? O forsan Couturat e de Beaufront esis tro "Franca" por kom= prenar lia propra linguo konstruktita... 2017-01-17 6:48 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >: > > > Kar amiki, > > Pos plusa reflektado me konkluzis ke anke litero p= ovas esar dika, se on > egardas ne la tota litero dudimensione (longe e lar= je) ma nur lua streko > undimensione. Exemple, larja A esas A havanta sat g= randa disto inter la > extremaji di sua du inklinita "pedi", kontre ke dika= A esas A havanta > "dika" streko, t.e. havanta sat granda disto inter la d= u bordi di sua > streko. Konseque, litero povas esar larja e dika, streta e= dika, larja e > dina, streta e dina. > > *Quoniam "bold"-a literi ordinare= esas sat dika, od adminime plu dika kam > ne-"bold"-a litero di la sama li= ter-tipo, forsan "dika" esa la maxim bona > (o la minim mala...) solvo por = tradukar "bold" en Ido, quale Arto recente > sugestis (e quale Feder propoz= abis ja en 1920 en sua Germana-Ido lexiko). > > Kordiale, > > GN > > > > --94eb2c1cd53e5a361705464defe7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1) Pri "clipboard". L= a AFGHIR-tradukuri interdivergas:

A: clipboard (=C2=ABpinchilo-planketo=C2=BB)
= F: presse-papiers (=C2=ABpaper-presilo=C2=BB)
H: portapapeles<= /i> (=C2=ABpaper-portilo=C2=BB)
I: appunti (=C2=ABnoti=C2=BB)
= G: Zwischenablage (=C2=ABinterdepozeyo=C2=BB)
R: =D0=B1=D1=83=D1= =84=D0=B5=D1=80 =D0=BE=D0=B1=D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=B0 (=C2=ABkambio-bufro=C2= =BB)

Me p= referas la Germana solvo ("interdepozeyo"), nam ol esas plu "= ;transparanta" kam le cetera e donas ideo pri la reala funciono di &qu= ot;clipboard". En parolata linguo suficus dicar "depozeyo".<= br>
<= font size=3D"4">2) "= anular" esas oficala ja de 1949 (Lexiko di nova vorti, da Camie= l De Cock, 1988, yene definita: =C2=ABdeklarar kom nevalida=C2=BB).=C2=A0 T= amen ol mankas che Pesch.

3) Yes, "extraktar" esas bona tradukuro di "= ;cut".

GN


2017-01-17 15:58 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogrou= ps.com>:
=C2=A0
=

=

Yes, e me nun solvis la tri teknikala frazi; ma ni ne = repozez sur nia lauri!


Ni ankore havas sep desfacila pr= oblemi solvenda. Idei:


Clipboard - Pinchilo-planketo.= =C2=A0 O simple papero-planketo?

Cut - Extraktar?

Cancel - Ni= hiligar?


Anular aparas en Wikivortaro, me ne altraloke,= do me dubitas pri olua oficaleso.



<= br>

=


Tre bone! Me suportas sive dika, sive grosa.= Ma me ne aceptos larja.

La tre logikoza Louis Co= uturat ipsa uzis "dika literi" en un ek sua verki:
http://numelyo.bm-lyon.fr/f_view/= BML:BML_00GOO0100137001105355841?vue=3D3&svue=3Dsimple

Fakte, lu mem skribis parenteze "egiptiana"= ;, pro la Franca termino tipografala "=C3=A9gyptien": http://www.= cnrtl.fr/definition/%C3%A9gyptien

Pri tua= antea questioni:

"tenua voc= o" ne signifikas "akuta voco".
tenua voco =3D "fil= et de voix": voix t=C3=A9nue, que l'on entend =C3=A0 peine=C2=A0http://ww= w.cnrtl.fr/definition/filet

"tenua vapo= ro" =3D tenua substanco =3D "substance t=C3=A9nue":=C2=A0Qui= est peu dense, peu consistant.=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3= %A9nue

Omna dicionarii quin me kontrolis tra= dukas "tenua" a la Franca per "t=C3=A9nu(e)", sen pl= usa detalo o restrikto. Me do poke komprenas pro quo tu kredas, ke &quo= t;tenua" esas plu preciza kam "t=C3=A9nu(e):=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3%A= 9nu

Simile, semblas ke la vorto "grosa&= quot; probas imitar la Franca "gros", tam libere kam posible. Yen= exemplo ek la Kompleta Gramatiko:
Por ke vu povez pagar ta deb= ajo, oportas ke vu kunprenez sat grosa sumo de pekunio.

Nu, semblas a me ke nule relatas du dimensioni (o tri) h= ike. To esas simpla traduko di "une assez grosse somme d'ar= gent".

Altra exemplo, ek la KGD:
Po quante vu vendas ta flori? la senco esus: kad vu vendas li gra= ndaquante, mikraquante, grose o detale?

=
Yen "grose" signifikas "en gros" e "de= tale" signifikas "en d=C3=A9tail". Simpla, ka ne?

O forsan Couturat e de Beaufront esis tro "Franca&quo= t; por komprenar lia propra linguo konstruktita...
<= /div>

2017-01-17 6:48 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= span dir=3D"ltr"><linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0 =
=
=
=

Kar amiki,

Pos plusa reflektado me konkluzis ke anke l= itero povas esar dika, se on egardas ne la tota litero dudimensione (longe = e larje) ma nur lua streko undimensione. Exemple, larja A esas A havanta sa= t granda disto inter la extremaji di sua du inklinita "pedi", kon= tre ke dika A esas A havanta "dika" streko, t.e. havanta sat gran= da disto inter la du bordi di sua streko. Konseque, litero povas esar larja= e dika, streta e dika, larja e dina, streta e dina.

*Quoniam "= bold"-a literi ordinare esas sat dika, od adminime plu dika kam ne-&qu= ot;bold"-a litero di la sama liter-tipo, forsan "dika" esa l= a maxim bona (o la minim mala...) solvo por tradukar "bold" en Id= o, quale Arto recente sugestis= (e quale Feder propozabis ja = en 1920 en sua Germana-Ido lexiko).

Kordiale,

GN
<= div>


--94eb2c1cd53e5a361705464defe7-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4832 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 40063 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 18:06:54 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m14.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 18:06:54 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 4688 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 18:06:54 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 18:06:54 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.47 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: drXD6mcWLDsgiH_Q5q02wAXpYOLE4qyvscbVjtldsfGKJGwF EzE0mNb9tIIWEVEb4Hst8NQA7mr4jIOG0BU5uwS2qYGojluSxN9i3yw4caEf xN88dtnXmWUH3SRFmmOPMw0zm8HVHEBp2dCyQBRlTl3s06pH.HWRQdmZ6hy4 mhydkKcLQniJtPomPNOjTw9yIx4e08kBjbmLoIGeYijgVkB3e39YmFT8UZwJ i3V.mIP0qycgcoOHBbjY.bc9VwR_v.EtrtXVYCojWf61Fm_K1fJs3RCqZnYY DXc_yq.lLVqSMA5pdG3gSyHAxUVBsHw58PY3lrRmo1BahKLn4UqjtM1kjPPE fwmnKfgmqR00ljg3D78XBvgLnCGB64bJKPHFQrPidhxA1rx9kPP85kRNRnvW K5hpmVONCPLpOy4JZu.WEZV0aSR04yyXtSh.CC94sfLYIt_SlIXcScg62RQJ teVnH4WZOKfdmc4wSdbssCZ3zAsyiPDs_Sb6TmR29sWiZsFSvwOpkzbqsb0o uWMZdfpS7MxIvQHlCf0ljiuop8Wh8oZ_KZPg4pDiy0CEly7FOlPJongWWhx6 UIhCfSIILJqHym9OmHnYDCZvzvnX0l0jM5KzzagTKGkCmvuFugI.yr8fuOxZ CMul7MOXp6fF8JwcjwhphqpoqsWj7PDimTMdS39vWR0GQUgYouiv5LBVNrTn Av0kpMj65LTbAMMPh9PRtJO.Sn57DkeFPpu_KQGGSrakseJvuux_or9JwLmG Xis5gaY2rSl9swsfFflRzYQEH.6sh4kVTzmd.iXed.G4D6fPNuKz6BOjkVp4 XlN2muRtCL6mozTTLFOepl2adPBTlARKAKMqkAzdJzzLQODdWyoTZe0yJzE5 1JaKJ6S5QkSLgieqRE2uErOLgra0LuqUun7uV6E50Gxv6kGBUhNwDBuVPqBq cxAZ1gzvoNhxtQN28.u68ZAU9dFr.JOT4W7ZQzcxkWonzDrzu258dWYzWpO2 S42vPLKEORXEc1fIDxRUdCEwVOKBn88s7nanT2KfUqzguqAhON0Us0Uf5IfP puqw2aJCQucYegObnUp5OXG.ki8ad90kXrZRg8gka771Zx2SRI_KGNwt03y. 8KuZBboXMb9FPrxSNq546QEJ9ObDNW6s6.rEqvylU7g3fWbuJto_5w3uL.wu Hch10JS33UQXxXNx9WCXY2.MHUqxwt5nkjZdDll3G8AAgG_nLdyr9mZclMI8 0dnsgPvGaPy9dHqK2E._iY5t.cf5aN3.Hbv5Om2J0Fwlm9vI1KYZYtB5NZAV qZdKNjGnrUI05aARNrEzOS9eeegR0hPBI.CA9ddBEjb0JiR1D4B.Lhd2lAv2 ujii1rFlHtxjQlMwxZq5yarmAz5wMly8d_wnZ2Up5MeW.oFKrso_6kLwqFae HOLFbcX.xf5grNwjfNpQ66CYW.ewZbVy1RnxWXp6pBfQDao7nChjssTdk8gN ErbzpHlG_8WpEDkgmhrJa02XWAib6QVgeN6SN9r7QzMBcT5ow..EUU9H8FG7 x1cWcLKJJkPn0rASS7vsG2dMOFIjl8a6F4oa24N4XCK0NuRd3AXMlVyFCdPG H3xncP261ogWFZomyY7yTHpek4xQIoAAz2roCkw- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f47.google.com) (209.85.215.47) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:06:54 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f47.google.com with SMTP id k86so114687681lfi.0 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 10:06:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=0XZLc5Ic84dOPGUMRTwoLi39oI0kJgdUhHud0KJVT1A=; b=q9S/hYx+DnnQ7YO1ZISJYg5xzLlpMFiLetu8i1lh4JaNnHszh1lktvtUbGMcDzoEIt qeKzv6L/4aykJRGgfPpla6L4lGY5L/WDTyME2o3mHxugTJBFmiuYHR/eLkcr+ZLcaTCo uB63iyAuJ/pJPnN7Ss+f51/40wcKc84akACg/Z0HIu3L3gS5EENIJVXdPJJ+h7PU3oS3 D/yCb6Iy8ens30S1RmA4OK7IDsa76K8z3LcRglHRmLAkUzH0yzzoDxWQBMuqMjhCWQQU a1SvkFqPJrTZv5rx5OclPcaZ9TcnC08BWdPkQpag6mRzRW56uJs1WfgG21PKwJbzMK28 +k7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLWcKWXaLpl9v21iUrbUxQhe+aEwwOXn7se6odkE91q6tw6haYlzM6foESC2iEPXwTpqSD0XoY5+U9kDA== X-Received: by 10.46.84.93 with SMTP id y29mr4748731ljd.51.1484676412320; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 10:06:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 10:06:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:06:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045fba4e29b2c305464e2aea Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045fba4e29b2c305464e2aea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable clipboard: nam internacioneso ne existas en ta kazo, me judikas ke on selek= tez irgo quo esas sat simpla e la sat logikala vorto. Esperanto selektis t= ri vorti: "trancheyo", "tranchuyo" e "posho". cut: "ektranchar", segun me,= plu juste extraktar la esenca senco di "cut" o "couper". cancel: "anular"= , senhezite. 2017-01-17 12:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.= com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > 1) Pri "clipboard"= . La AFGHIR-tradukuri interdivergas: > > A: *clipboard* (=C2=ABpinchilo-pla= nketo=C2=BB) > F: *presse-papiers* (=C2=ABpaper-presilo=C2=BB) > H: *portap= apeles* (=C2=ABpaper-portilo=C2=BB) > I: *appunti* (=C2=ABnoti=C2=BB) > G: = *Zwischenablage* (=C2=ABinterdepozeyo=C2=BB) > R: =D0=B1=D1=83=D1=84=D0=B5= =D1=80 =D0=BE=D0=B1=D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=B0 (=C2=ABkambio-bufro=C2=BB) > > = Me preferas la Germana solvo ("interdepozeyo"), nam ol esas plu > "transpar= anta" kam le cetera e donas ideo pri la reala funciono di > "clipboard". En= parolata linguo suficus dicar "depozeyo". > > 2) "anular" esas oficala ja = de 1949 (*Lexiko di nova vorti*, da Camiel De > Cock, 1988, yene definita: = =C2=ABdeklarar kom nevalida=C2=BB). Tamen ol mankas che > Pesch. > > 3) Ye= s, "extraktar" esas bona tradukuro di "cut". > > GN > > > 2017-01-17 15:58 = GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> >> Yes, e me nun solvis la tri teknikala frazi; ma n= i ne repozez sur nia >> lauri! >> >> >> Ni ankore havas sep desfacila probl= emi solvenda. Idei: >> >> >> Clipboard - Pinchilo-planketo. O simple paper= o-planketo? >> >> Cut - Extraktar? >> >> Cancel - Nihiligar? >> >> >> Anula= r aparas en Wikivortaro, me ne altraloke, do me dubitas pri olua >> oficale= so. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> > > --f403045fba4e29b2c305464e2aea Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
clipboard: nam internacioneso ne existas en ta kazo, me ju= dikas ke on selektez irgo quo esas sat simpla e la sat logikala vorto.
=
Esperanto selektis tri vorti: "trancheyo", "t= ranchuyo" e "posho".

cut: "ekt= ranchar", segun me, plu juste extraktar la esenca senco di "cut&q= uot; o "couper".

cancel: "anular&qu= ot;, senhezite.

2017-01-17 12:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] &= lt;linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= u>
=C2=A0

1) Pri "clipboard". La AFGHIR-tradukuri interdivergas= :

A: clipboa= rd (=C2=ABpinchilo-planketo=C2=BB)
F: presse-papiers (=C2=ABp= aper-presilo=C2=BB)
H: portapapeles (=C2=ABpaper-portilo=C2=BB)I: appunti (=C2=ABnoti=C2=BB)
G: Zwischenablage (=C2=ABi= nterdepozeyo=C2=BB)
R: =D0=B1=D1=83=D1=84=D0=B5=D1=80 =D0=BE=D0=B1=D0=BC= =D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=B0 (=C2=ABkambio-bufro=C2=BB)

<= /div>
Me preferas la Germana solvo ("= interdepozeyo"), nam ol esas plu "transparanta" kam le ceter= a e donas ideo pri la reala funciono di "clipboard". En parolata = linguo suficus dicar "depozeyo".

2) "anular" esas oficala ja de = 1949 (Lexiko di nova vorti, da Camiel De Cock, 1988, yene definita: = =C2=ABdeklarar kom nevalida=C2=BB).=C2=A0 Tamen ol mankas che Pesch.
3) Yes, "e= xtraktar" esas bona tradukuro di "cut".

GN
<= /div>


2017-01-17 = 15:58 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yah= oogroups.com>:
=
= =C2=A0

Yes, e me nun solvis la tri teknikala frazi; ma ni ne r= epozez sur nia lauri!


Ni ankore havas sep desfacila pro= blemi solvenda. Idei:


Clipboard - Pinchilo-planketo.=C2= =A0 O simple papero-planketo?

Cut - Extraktar?

Cancel - Nihil= igar?


Anular aparas en Wikivortaro, me ne altraloke, do= me dubitas pri olua oficaleso.


<= div>


=



<= div style=3D"color:#fff;height:0">
=

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Ho? on povas extingar li nur p= er du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!"* La originala senco restrikt= esis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lu= mo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne? *"= Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono= ."* Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me kon= sideras la situeso tote absurda. La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca = per du vorti: *commutateur* (komutilo) e *interrupteur* (inter-rupt-ilo). N= u, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, pos= serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo *switch*. Pr= o quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus "swichilo", m= in internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"? Per vua = exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirk= uito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e= . "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la c= hanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, *interruptar elektro-fluo*= tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam *chanjar lua direciono*. On Tue, Jan = 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato= en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke > la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionig= ar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on > "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas e= sar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. > Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switc= h on" e "switch off"? > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.= com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 > 16:05:32 -0500: > Nu, me ne komprena= s la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" > ulo en od ek quo?= > > Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? > > 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7al= o Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] > : >= > > Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata > p= recipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn > = off). > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido > https://en.wiktion= ary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido > > 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mo= rin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > > >= Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos > an= alizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" > es= as sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota > sino= nimo di "komutar". > > Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926? > > Gil= les-Philippe > > > --001a11411c76f1a7fa05464ee1b8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich o= ff" ante lia adopto: "acendar" ed "extingar".
= "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du k= laki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!"

La o= riginala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozis l= a senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga apara= ti elektrala, ka ne?
"Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava n= ovajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono."

Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o = pro quo me konsideras la situeso tote absurda.

La = Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateu= r=C2=A0(komutilo) e interrupteur=C2=A0(inter-rupt-ilo).
Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, = pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch<= /b>.

Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a swit= ch" funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam &qu= ot;komutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"?
<= div>
Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "ensw= ichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule = sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la= direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di= direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar=C2=A0elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.
<= /div>

On Tue, Jan = 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.co= m> wrote:
=
=C2= =A0

Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/a= parato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funci= onigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. = To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la An= gla "switch on" e "switch off"?
Robert C.

= Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500: =
Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar"= ; ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo?
Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?

2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves= 64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

<= br> Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas = uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "= ekswichar" (to turn off).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki= /enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto= ] <ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


Pos analizir la defino di= "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini d= i "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" es= as sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime t= ota sinonimo di "komutar".

Kad on havas informo pri lua = adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe

=
=

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Ho? on povas= extingar li nur per du klaki? > Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!"* > > La o= riginala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on > transpozis= la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti > ad irga a= parati elektrala, ka ne? > *"Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo event= is. Me acendez la > televiziono."* > > Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpun= to pri "swichar", o pro quo me > konsideras la situeso tote absurda. > > La= Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: *commutateur* (komutil= o) > e *interrupteur* (inter-rupt-ilo). > Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen k= onsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, > pos serchado, me ya trovis li en = Dyer... en la defino di la nomo *switch*. > > Pro quo me, qua bone savas qu= ale "a switch" funcionas, selektus > "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komu= tilo" e min logikoza kam > "interruptilo"? > > Per vua exempli, me deduktas= ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar > (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". O= r to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a > "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la di= reciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". > Ube esas la chanjo di direc= iono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, > *interruptar elektro-fluo* tote, tote = ne esas la sama kozo kam *chanjar > lua direciono*. > > On Tue, Jan 17, 201= 7 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > >> >> >> Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato = en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke >> la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionig= ar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on >> "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas = esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. >> Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "swi= tch on" e "switch off"? >> Robert C. >> >> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@g= mail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan >> 2017 16:05:32 -0500: >> Nu, me ne k= omprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" >> ulo en od= ek quo? >> >> Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? >> >> 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00= Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >> >> Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar= " esas uzata >> precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswi= char" (to turn >> off). >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido = >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido >> >> 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+0= 0:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >> >> Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexik= o di Nova Vorti, e pos >> analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me= konkluzas ke "swichar" >> esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komuta= r", sive admaxime tota >> sinonimo di "komutar". >> >> Kad on havas informo= pri lua adopto en 1926? >> >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> >> > > --001a114b18ea03d72605464ee311 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
vua* exemplo.

2017-01-17 13:58 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphm= orin@gmail.com>:
Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off"= ante lia adopto: "acendar" ed "extingar".
"= ;Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni= vivas en tante ociema socio!"

La originala= senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozis la senco = ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga aparati elekt= rala, ka ne?
"Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo ev= entis. Me acendez la televiziono."

Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo = me konsideras la situeso tote absurda.

La Angla &q= uot;switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur=C2= =A0(komutilo) e interrupteur=C2=A0(inter-rupt-ilo).
Nu, me= facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, pos serc= hado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch.

Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch"= funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komut= ilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"?

=
Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar&qu= ot; esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas l= a defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direcio= no di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direcio= no en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar=C2=A0elektro-fluo tote,= tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [l= inguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Kande= on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale= ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on = "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas = Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "= switch off"?
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguol= isto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500:
Nu, me ne komprenas la = logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas&= quot; ulo en od ek quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?

2017-= 01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroup= s.com>:


Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Id= o, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar&= quot; (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).

https:/= /en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.or= g/wiki/ekswichar#Ido

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phi= lippe Morin gphmori= n@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti= , e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluz= as ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "ko= mutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar".

K= ad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe



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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:21:33 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroAACxa7gAAaF4CAAAKaT4AAFBAAgAAShYCAABQWww== Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:21:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:4DEFD88E8096375389B14457EADDF32803894298AA3852080F7D14AF52ED9991;UpperCasedChecksum:89180D1C0C05DEC2266690A06599F348BEEAEB93130199AC726A44BB9A318730;SizeAsReceived:8585;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [VLnvU26X/vO8FPiPbgAs7OwhXTR0eOj6] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;HE1EUR02HT032;7:VDVMqjnuyLRcGco0xTlSVLItbnw3vpNTiChcaQuhlm1bK3PJqU/xStNjwaFxBaAOqkn6JkV2DDg8qOtWs39QHu54o+5tid7PmO6bNIp5FtBsdLrYhd1C2kV+z+4c6OaLZZUQvloMn8UB6jhncjEOHN8YMW9Oa9fXwdgZfb6fIbRhiOOd9sEVfg2slfvU4gGhQPiEWaX1z/9/LfaZnrqLWQpsa/WdmM/yAn49/SWNr/LKa9551TB0VIJJK8/bdsS6hm6sRoNw3lUDxEvU1V1L9Bm1aoyBbCX4xmdyvImcYnwmnCYde2K6jvA9uu6GL3WCLk3i3yoh3MPorx2ZCf4C6vbylwcd0YdlnvHYR/L/6WMQpVWC9TCcwGWu0w1nYaoObwfbcdsFUPKj0cjqleEx1TMRrnZJYGE/EOdOtxXPTPmtjahom5uEgv0KG1k1WlSMQxfEGyLBXTp1iPXKjVHT1Q== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:HE1EUR02HT032;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 1a3101d7-5781-4523-ee6d-08d43f0e0c9b x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(5061507293)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:HE1EUR02HT032; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:HE1EUR02HT032;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:HE1EUR02HT032; x-forefront-prvs: 01901B3451 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB1397D47EFD27FE124F425741A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Jan 2017 19:21:33.8359 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR02HT032 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jan 2017 19:21:37.0231 (UTC) FILETIME=[EC1635F0:01D270F6] Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=lAkNNbbEVlFKyOf9Nok4JY-sL_S4OlMDpp2K7HY3dZE X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB1397D47EFD27FE124F4257411A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe Danko pro vua respondo, ma me ne povas komprenar vua = suba frazo. Ka do vu preferas ektranchar, od extraktar? cut: "ektrancha= r", segun me, plu juste extraktar la esenca senco di "cut" o "couper". --_000_DB5PR03MB1397D47EFD27FE124F4257411A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe

Danko p= ro vua respondo, ma me ne povas komprenar vua suba frazo.  Ka do vu pr= eferas ektranchar, od extraktar?



cut: &= quot;ektranchar", segun me, plu juste extraktar la esenca senco di &qu= ot;cut" o "couper".
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'ektranchar'. Me volis skribar *extraktas.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 14:21 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrot= e:




















=









=C2= =A0



















=













Kara Gilles-Philippe





Danko pro vua respondo, ma= me ne povas komprenar vua suba frazo.=C2=A0 Ka do vu preferas ektranchar, = od extraktar?











<= br>


cut: "ektranchar", = segun me, plu juste extraktar la esenca senco di "cut" o "co= uper".


<= /div>







































=











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Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:35:37 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroAACxa7gAAaF4CAAAKaT4AAFBAAgAAShYCAABfnzg== Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 19:35:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:79EDAE414036EC523887E90117FFBE9588570711B7E01C6AFF1BB3C3FFBFFFC8;UpperCasedChecksum:6FCA75874D847AB65239C1A9B05BC5A1FC6FD8CB97D63BE8FDA74C6D760219E5;SizeAsReceived:8511;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [JpNO6PDNJUPv3Bw5MGOUHDvhJ2MDHcbu] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;AM5EUR02HT173;7:byB34f9swwbTNXgH8uTake0is2JdP7E2jL6/Fn8uHuSq3bH36KcxmN6J7m41q++19s1azj0OAO5sca/U7gcjziR0mHj0PPbwAOn8HMv7Oqf7Epd76ufwpdW3jZFU1Np2O9wxWoFZdRgp5Rd9yQ0q5ri5F/r4j7K+jIw52NA8e593DQScEChsDUwC+T8NHhamb9TM17fqZgpx6m3Gmda70GMSbV+f5Vq6MtDt8K2jFA0hPLD/UCPThqIX7RYnX/sHEVbDfFl9wM7F4hG12fcgao9A4qeBottL7LuxExVQLpqvBgDcGj1RrcXmWpglLicmvCyU6wcfrmIP9Bz+xY5Jqvu67wUSlEPdepJ9Q7vDegNRNeEYd1Xd3EDew3nS6fdpJlh7PTkR6cWW3QbUAKf4su6Uc/CZgofvF9X7rlyDyswVsNn1tpazLVgoylmY5gj0Z1IarewT0MfMa3ZgmqTELg== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:AM5EUR02HT173;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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u=24528831; y=lSKu4oTOu73CozzhAqDEKo-vgVRX-jhZUOdOMhGLOds X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB139751E975E2FE39D63E55655A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Goncalo Me ne povas sequar vu til "depozeyo". To esas ulo plu grand= a, quaze magazino. Esas problemo di skalo. Me opinionas ke ol mustas esar= X-planketo, ube X esas decidenda. ________________________________ From:= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gil= les-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 17 January 2017 18:06 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Fr= azi bezonata por VisualEditor clipboard: nam internacioneso ne existas en= ta kazo, me judikas ke on selektez irgo quo esas sat simpla e la sat logik= ala vorto. 2017-01-17 12:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=E7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] >: 1) Pri "clipboard". La AFGHIR-tradukuri i= nterdivergas: A: clipboard (=ABpinchilo-planketo=BB) F: presse-papiers (= =ABpaper-presilo=BB) H: portapapeles (=ABpaper-portilo=BB) I: appunti (=ABn= oti=BB) G: Zwischenablage (=ABinterdepozeyo=BB) R: ????? ?????? (=ABkambio-= bufro=BB) Me preferas la Germana solvo ("interdepozeyo"), nam ol esas plu = "transparanta" kam le cetera e donas ideo pri la reala funciono di "clipboa= rd". En parolata linguo suficus dicar "depozeyo". --_000_DB5PR03MB139751E975E2FE39D63E55655A47C0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kara Goncalo


Me ne povas sequar vu til "depozeyo".  To esas= ulo plu granda, quaze magazino.  Esas problemo di skalo.  Me opi= nionas ke ol mustas esar X-planketo, ube X esas decidenda.


Fro= m: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on b= ehalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto]
Sent: 17 January 2017 18:06
To:<= /b> Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualE= ditor
 

clipboard:= nam internacioneso ne existas en ta kazo, me judikas ke on selektez irgo q= uo esas sat simpla e la sat logikala vorto.

2017-01-17 12:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=E7alo Neve= s gneves64@gmail.com [linguolist= o] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
 

1) Pri= "clipboard". La AFGHIR-tradukuri interdivergas:

A: clipboard (=ABpinc= hilo-planketo=BB)
F: presse-papiers (=ABpaper-presilo=BB)
H:= portapapeles (=ABpaper-portilo=BB)
I: appunti (=ABnoti= =BB)
G: Zwischenablage (=ABinterdepozeyo=BB)
R: бm= 1;фер обмена (=ABkamb= io-bufro=BB)

Me = preferas la Germana solvo ("interdepozeyo"), nam ol esas plu &quo= t;transparanta" kam le cetera e donas ideo pri la reala funciono di &= quot;clipboard". En parolata linguo suficus dicar "depozeyo"= .
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Me ipsa ofte uzas l'expresuro "grosa eroro" i.a. Tamen on ne exajerez.= Per metaforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaciona susteno, on riskas mi= skompreno. Por komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germ= ana, la Angla od irg altra linguo... Couturat e Beaufront esis tre (forsan= mem tro) cirkonspekta pri metaforala uzi. Exemple, en lia Franca-Ido-lexik= o (1915), sub "faible" (p. 237), on lektas kom tradukuri ne nur "febla", ma= anke "mikra", "tro indulgema" e "ne-sonora" (pri voco!). Sub "gros, grosse= " (p. 277) on lektas kom tradukuri ne nur "grosa", ma anke "dika", "mala", = "ondoza", "grosiera", "insultanta", "granda", "multe riskanta", "gravida" e= .a. On lektas anke "engrosa komerco", "engrosisto", do Beaufront eroris en= sua KGD kande il skribis "grose o detale" vice "engrose od endetale" (*eng= ros/* ed *endetal/* ya existas kom aparta e specala radiki ja de sat longa = tempo)... No, Couturat e Beaufront ne esis tro "Franca" por komprenar sua = propra linguo konstruktita. Lia extraordinara 8-pagina prefaco al mencionit= a lexiko, certe lektinda, rilektinda, e mem tradukinda ad Ido, sendubite mo= ntras ke li havas mento vere internaciona, ke li suciis ante omno la intern= aciona komprenebleso di Ido e ke li esforcegis eskartar de la linguo irga o= bstaklo kontre tala komprenebleso. 2017-01-17 17:50 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phili= ppe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : = > > > Tre bone! Me suportas sive *dika*, sive *grosa*. Ma me ne aceptos *la= rja*. > > La tre logikoza Louis Couturat ipsa uzis "dika literi" en un ek s= ua verki: > http://numelyo.bm-lyon.fr/f_view/BML:BML_00GOO01001370011053 > = 55841?vue=3D3&svue=3Dsimple > > Fakte, lu mem skribis parenteze "egiptiana"= , pro la Franca termino > tipografala "=C3=A9gyptien": http://www.cnrtl.fr/= definition/%C3%A9gyptien > > Pri tua antea questioni: > > "tenua voco" ne s= ignifikas "akuta voco". > tenua voco =3D "filet de voix": voix t=C3=A9nue, = que l'on entend =C3=A0 peine > http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/filet > > "te= nua vaporo" =3D tenua substanco =3D "substance t=C3=A9nue": Qui est peu den= se, > peu consistant. http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3%A9nue > > Omna di= cionarii quin me kontrolis tradukas "tenua" a la Franca per > "t=C3=A9nu(e)= ", *sen plusa detalo o restrikto*. Me do poke komprenas pro quo > tu kredas= , ke "tenua" esas plu preciza kam "t=C3=A9nu(e): http://www.cnrtl.fr/ > def= inition/t%C3%A9nu > > Simile, semblas ke la vorto "grosa" probas imitar la = Franca "gros", tam > libere kam posible. Yen exemplo ek la Kompleta Gramati= ko: > *Por ke vu povez pagar ta debajo, oportas ke vu kunprenez sat grosa s= umo > de pekunio.* > > Nu, semblas a me ke nule relatas du dimensioni (o tr= i) hike. To esas > simpla traduko di "une assez *grosse* somme d'argent". >= > Altra exemplo, ek la KGD: > *Po quante vu vendas ta flori? la senco esus= : kad vu vendas li > grandaquante, mikraquante, grose o detale?* > > Yen "g= rose" signifikas "en gros" e "detale" signifikas "en d=C3=A9tail". > Simpla= , ka ne? > > O forsan Couturat e de Beaufront esis tro "Franca" por kompren= ar lia > propra linguo konstruktita... > > 2017-01-17 6:48 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.c= om>: > >> >> --94eb2c1245be6329430546503955 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Me objecionas nulo a certe= na metaforala uzi di "grosa", "tenua" ed altra vorti. M= e ipsa ofte uzas l'expresuro "grosa eroro" i.a. Tamen on ne e= xajerez. Per metaforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaciona sus= teno, on riskas miskompreno. Por komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme = la Franca, la Germana, la Angla od irg altra linguo...

Couturat e B= eaufront esis tre (forsan mem tro) cirkonspekta pri metaforala uzi. Exemple= , en lia Franca-Ido-lexiko (1915), sub "faible" (p. 237), on lekt= as kom tradukuri ne nur "febla", ma anke "mikra", "= ;tro indulgema" e "ne-sonora" (pri voco!). Sub "gros, g= rosse" (p. 277) on lektas kom tradukuri ne nur "grosa", ma a= nke "dika", "mala", "ondoza", "grosiera&= quot;, "insultanta", "granda", "multe riskanta&quo= t;, "gravida" e.a.=C2=A0 On lektas anke "engrosa komerco&quo= t;, "engrosisto", do Beaufront eroris en sua KGD kande il skribis= "grose o detale" vice "engrose od endetale" (engros= / ed endetal/ ya existas kom aparta e specala radiki ja de sat l= onga tempo)...

No, Couturat e Beaufront ne esis tro "Franca" por komprenar sua = propra linguo konstruktita. Lia extraordinara 8-pagina prefaco al mencionit= a lexiko, certe lektinda, rilektinda, e mem tradukinda ad Ido, sendubite mo= ntras ke li havas mento vere internaciona, ke li suciis ante omno la intern= aciona komprenebleso di Ido e ke li esforcegis eskartar de la linguo irga o= bstaklo kontre tala komprenebleso.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

2017-01-1= 7 17:50 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
=
=C2=A0=
=

Tre bone! Me suportas sive d= ika, sive grosa. Ma me ne aceptos larja.

La tre logikoza Louis Couturat ipsa uzis "dika literi" en un e= k sua verki:

Fakte, lu mem skribis parentez= e "egiptiana", pro la Franca termino tipografala "=C3=A9gypt= ien": http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/%C3%A9gyptien

Pri tua antea questioni:

"tenua voco" ne= signifikas "akuta voco".
tenua voco =3D "filet de voix= ": voix t=C3=A9nue, que l'on entend =C3=A0 peine=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/filet
<= br class=3D"m_5922938907515211230gmail-m_-4080191222126585553gmail-m_-49158= 94334643928285gmail_msg">
"tenua vapor= o" =3D tenua substanco =3D "substance t=C3=A9nue":=C2=A0Qui = est peu dense, peu consistant.=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3%A9nue

Omna dicionarii quin me kontrolis tradukas "t= enua" a la Franca per "t=C3=A9nu(e)", sen plusa detalo o = restrikto. Me do poke komprenas pro quo tu kredas, ke "tenua"= esas plu preciza kam "t=C3=A9nu(e):=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl.fr/definit= ion/t%C3%A9nu

Simile, semblas ke la vorto "grosa" probas imitar la = Franca "gros", tam libere kam posible. Yen exemplo ek la Kompleta= Gramatiko:
Por ke vu povez pagar ta debaj= o, oportas ke vu kunprenez sat grosa sumo de pekunio.

Nu, semblas a me= ke nule relatas du dimensioni (o tri) hike. To esas simpla traduko di &quo= t;une assez grosse somme d'argent".

Al= tra exemplo, ek la KGD:
Po quante vu ven= das ta flori? la senco esus: kad vu vendas li grandaquante, mikraquante, grose o detale?

<= div class=3D"m_5922938907515211230gmail-m_-4080191222126585553gmail-m_-4915= 894334643928285gmail_msg">Yen "grose" signifikas "en gros&qu= ot; e "detale" signifikas "en d=C3=A9tail". Simpla, ka = ne?

O = forsan Couturat e de Beaufront esis tro "Franca" por komprenar li= a propra linguo konstruktita...

2017-01-17 6:48 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


=
--94eb2c1245be6329430546503955-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4839 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 13542 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 20:44:00 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 20:44:00 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 22086 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 20:44:00 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.119) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 20:44:00 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.43 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: ZWSGLdgWLDsa5WoaDDIxV5MAF3CQBmtNMzrE.Dcnb.zsOGoW dHOZ69WW45eTHeOESqdszGvIIOOZUUm_gL9mrME8j0nzV_vnc3lOIPZiLFZn BfwKmJLY83cpVj8X10ealv3Mp5sxvpyEEYxiLbgBZ.zZ3ySq7vQ4xzuHdIaU Ncxg8h8s5LH6z3ZcoRmy3d981dcxKiPnrFBAIGmsiQaDQMCsdCGXvrHWydpr 0TGjcVh5x2wj4Ksd.VURdIg15ju562Al4kkffTf69xF0H3tvQY29s7xkg5X7 rjylY910wCeZdiFzc.E2.ufNrVQLYWbw8HR_FIPFktqoKz38m6oxEG0UwiyL XBP2SDper7Fo3Ru5__VxgqjefjeUofsHIss1I5piUJYAOGTH0zb72aMp8t8Z yCn2gdMALZbSoNhO.omTIGVVdxjJQokhEomP3WREymTxyMGf_SpLyItADSgM NEdWBP7es5iMq45RKFMKiUcYCAxr1Ifd6_kne.7OzmJBKd6D7P5ujcFVju4f pzXqJ0FZVRr1rjgUy_CR5pPWG.vV._7mpZdg83ptS_22.Eo0jdO0MMxUAmOq UybTJK_Bycuf0g5b3KLi3Dj7Vp.zuFiVCKjhlJy95D0gUH5W2oSFQwReWsaD PCYB8EKPtt5_28C6uwg33BBUYmXcRcd_f56tqGwZFLLJRavprPGJak_XswF3 RR1X460gMKDAHoudHSTELyljj7Z7_bRLHj7_6U_DNyvCG5d75gauhteM5egH IUzY1bl_J8udqekUI4j03rdGqZ9vFaM6bOCDSNSp2CjMIUXgXwAgE2.JAJBU z46V62sRT0V9h.Jr8sKwE7v0esKrbmBsxwRANFYF4gQgJtxZUFQ2_o9IfMyG 3G27mdukDDgmlBM7QfqNAcsjiYwxnMnQvbN0WnzqRYr.INu.qIun6oDiBoRg MQ7fP5_VOMU6x_g7Lk178e_kZ7krzZMHnr36nR0k4m8XmyktHxfuHzfNFoEj eMiShChls63xW0chjXyCJuFl3RBncT45exhGbcJricJnn6SWPryUuK9VPzVl lsd54gQntKG38rpZwbeu.LD7QyWPcqeKDyCXb3x_AM7yBYZIwfkYwvRKEoy1 0yADEiLS0Kq2AnhIGt5Yv6COo4qOn8Uo5xmIe6zwRC1c1kcqO7HmyXIAYTm_ O2pqafAOG7Ez2tm.00gp7jPYu13QA7kJ1o87UGNqZW6727tEVPVG1HCGcYdj IybPYQ1zudyiJGApHhiRN841vDNv3csc.vL8296AVQvo Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f43.google.com) (209.85.213.43) by mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 20:44:00 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f43.google.com with SMTP id r136so100684807vke.1 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 12:43:59 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=SsydTrWlti3yweklp4uwQIAtKAvYJd9uHw+My6sBPHo=; b=NBVfS9ZqRrYR/+m5UjLpViqt+tN3new68h+rPiouYQx4OFMUUyR62rC8Ni23CbWY5V KY7ayLdXIZvxgwHiXOXVfT2cRaxrHY33I7ZkntdnSzYzev4eeGt4IeIIYA+NZ0PuL8oh ltrWykux8ENkGw+n0dt476W4bDzo3XeWgcJY/ir8SfgJOOZm1GwR+Og42M0UsZyXdzwM JQOALA2ferFOctxsv0KMnaOaUcmd4RQvCdBk2aM0hg4KgG8TUmy4sdWUQPLDVGvChQkW XU1hGuf8tY2g9r8dYnuojNhfamtftsatjPrxSnmkVOiB1qajRvQFa/QAhWMLyWPNvu7s L/0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ4q8jDP8sUDLIUWi97JRYboGTMLUKOKZRywUBPtJq5h44c/pK1FJUSVyFogCYMNKlNkEqSZ4SiHOXUrg== X-Received: by 10.31.59.137 with SMTP id i131mr19833219vka.7.1484685839258; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 12:43:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 20:43:58 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114419040d775f0546505cbf Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=yVVVtjnJ_W7YdkMpflIopehwZFrtCVTU9YDo7veRzV7ywI-8o10r_A X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a114419040d775f0546505cbf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Kara James, Irga loko ube on depozas ulo esas depozeyo, anke metaforale. Magazino esas specala sorto di depozeyo. Tamen depozeyo povas esar mikra, mem tre mikra. Irge quale esas, omna AFGHIR-vorti por "clipboard", quale me montris, esas metaforala. Do ne suciez la skalo. GN 2017-01-17 19:35 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Goncalo > > > Me ne povas sequar vu til "depozeyo". To esas ulo plu granda, quaze > magazino. Esas problemo di skalo. Me opinionas ke ol mustas esar > X-planketo, ube X esas decidenda. > > --001a114419040d775f0546505cbf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara James,

Irga loko ube on depoza= s ulo esas depozeyo, anke metaforale. Magazino esas specala sorto di depoze= yo. Tamen depozeyo povas esar mikra, mem tre mikra. Irge quale esas, omna A= FGHIR-vorti por "clipboard", quale me montris, esas metaforala. D= o ne suciez la skalo.

GN
<= br>

2017-01-17 19:35 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] = <linguo= listo@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Kara Goncalo

<= p>

Me ne povas sequar vu til "depozeyo".=C2=A0 To esa= s ulo plu granda, quaze magazino.=C2=A0 Esas problemo di skalo.=C2=A0 Me op= inionas ke ol mustas esar X-planketo, ube X esas decidenda.



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Kara Gilles-Philippe, Vu skribis: Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"): startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento. La defino di "acendar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) produktar flami, mem nur mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: "to inflame (the passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro. Extensar la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swichilo nur komencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar fairo. On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar la problemo. Kordiale, Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500: Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" ed "extingar". "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!" La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne? "Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono." Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me konsideras la situeso tote absurda. La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo). Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch. Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"? Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"? Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500: Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo? Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar". Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926? Gilles-Philippe From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4841 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 45714 invoked by uid 102); 17 Jan 2017 22:47:38 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m15.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 22:47:38 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 29375 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2017 22:47:38 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.81) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 17 Jan 2017 22:47:38 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.46 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: fpCB9jYWLDsTK7fcWaN.i3fwRENxWWvyVTkX3jm0TBU5sotD i4Ui0XajV2PswRiIAvofuPpewidMpYkbeQcMoW54A0AX1e1AnuddTKcILczo QFKSv8fvVlShWeBny7alS2z2AnYKrntEZciVTB70Pdol7w0LU_Fe4IuxUE43 .6CBNEZqY7aggIbLFc5flQdp_eUtWwfQ0tXGXo1J7pvroG5HMPZ1zBztAGWJ kICRHB4DhL90jHrBti0sspZOfK1PFTujgtzAnw4f.1xXz.4YKp16p2axXmOX hL15_inbDkVcAn7Vs4ZaofL1aISLSZMva1QfJUo7ZnEACwC6suAna.5EI8Xd 2dbvZ8H1VO.He_5ej75_7Z92vriuYC51FkFJucr_dCLpAHGoKWR.dfUhQzfC qnLcxUlsBLi4TB_Wz3nJABcPc6dhWwwLbj_MzVxUM6y0.dA2i9cUlnk9UL5Y hpYlv3Ab2cykLP6GPt8HDYDyNT5pOzxOmzRg3MeBhERFxMK3G6MIuuUazfqa 2XGRWjI3D_0zPy23BB9yeldGD.4PUipytQjU.J78o1_1kTQ5VNqG4klkpYom SjyKf1zQoa0Kd1fandjkUUsY9CWD1JxzkODmfOEIknF4ax5A1HrO1LHq2vvB U496cypHKwVwY_hFfNhbqkk2lHiC8v1jEXRhXIld8X8vGfZl_GR4W_xt9S3o dSsBuaXWoGfjv62NXF08CFHuUpKzeh1UWuUoAbuqc9x4Fc19ekRblpBgGYiQ 6hBZeTH0ApCmX9r_LHLgIW.syIZpBmQ_MNPpXaDUPoqPpX8OKxeqruJ4OdpF ubQ3Fyqoj_TXMNAHR21esksd4gpq6gSsvJM5HX50CAQPEl4kafBd1dcTPntv 83AHhKnmhhRXc8mIZpsSCyqCwyZn5fIFE8VB_iE7H0poFWJP3mckIEeW3gai 9jaSqzFQhAY7TysW7i9a8VmkfJSeq5a7HsTuVaqQJcOeh5Bh.aysZpmQOOpj qaUQ8h.3RmjqlCj24ENUhofpU4PJEWPi4KWUwMELNrh_AxNHN.wZ0v0dgsKn YUjBYslwX4_Hm7qVVRA5FMJW7ekozGAeHLVZDCJK7cWW9GnZtq07z.wdDb5J fxz5hBT0xs1X_onvMQ5oBSvIWq1BSyvFMle7dNhuTBGRFueOqCKb4knfyjCh jH9OPiDDzuRHHcjH4GrZeCA8BWHSAfh_k8yYLwOTXYeCLgvVeUkYNAs10XJY VgYo1SsYtx3W6wnHaDNtmj2Fo9gtudQVzs8tmVaETtpx9hP63JyG2gk6AzgP 5IE01fj_NQHQAPkg7pUOVS50y34S0Gp39VFL8YElDZsJ9XdCQ5RtpXG7Ns2G zklr4vHJ3ELWXFtbTJajCsTWBWaEXfT3j36BOfp5B9Qie9ZFkOx5Vqxp2aL1 .FNCETlcKClmAXT7d9bgu3q2DcrIE92s2ebVUtxfeXB0f5VSGcTLRUaJ7DXl wpcH9ER5GXnZrMsNcETyW4RWQNJO320jQIPvNQ4LrhtWFhTTytA_vYkHKm5y NzTiV3.fJPNt97gd5Ac57nb.HPSlDScf.cE_arbiE2iD0cmAo_56DHSrM8Jo 5L5tsnUCrEHq0YHdPgx5EerX5djh Authentication-Results: mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f46.google.com) (209.85.215.46) by mta1001.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 22:47:38 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f46.google.com with SMTP id v186so120088879lfa.1 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:47:37 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=NyYaQVh4OGpXx7o3etTgDQdrrzqHA6TofQldwiuXL4o=; b=Z3jWnyN9wEbSsbZPvglmA0Ygjcw1FZPOgpNhyRb6Hn+R4sovCDtNrddr0EBDiih9HF OTTHNwF3FTK2odheEn5kzob8hgu5ucJ6vKSvC0V3mJ35dmDhaESLD/zECRZuwyrphCRQ ZnRhdiqwR6QBKNhiHpVSBy4YxF6/gHvwwnKFoJF6BqI3zQcaX0EnYm17cUTLnDZD7/Mx ysd9cJn1AAfjW6nsri4AfuVP6ZZFIO3ZC7mg1FWO0dTfUE0y8JPjo1WTTFWFxpEkzdGq s1Vu9sUv3dkC7Vc48Kr7NKzMdXb0SdWpQS2nv8xGYqdi27kRKK1/gIXUP+EE41a6/7G2 E2YA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKXjFBX8SfXI2SxD2LKmvc1WHEf55KOyTa0LERqyaG9z3eFkzeFSq7Y7pFL7jTrR2m06Y4UrWkRzNW0lw== X-Received: by 10.25.80.66 with SMTP id z2mr3242lfj.157.1484693257407; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:47:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:47:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2017 17:47:36 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1cb94a3551660546521662 Subject: Re: [linguo] dika literi X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --94eb2c1cb94a3551660546521662 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu esas anke Angla. tenua =3D tenuous = =3D 2. Rare; subtile; not dense; -- said of fluids. http://www.websters1913= .com/words/Tenuous Me anke trovis libri en Google qui uzas "tenuous voice"= , ex. *Guest of a Sinner* da James Wilcox (p. 40): *"They've been phoning m= e," Una Merton went on in a tenuous voice, almost a whisper.* Me ne bone k= omprenas la Hispana, ma semblas, segun Google, ke "voz tenue" ya uzesas... = Ka to vere esas nacionala expresuro??? *"Con voz tenue y ojos entornados, H= ajji relata su historia."* http://www.unfpa.org/es/node/5897 "Por komprena= r Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, la Angla od irg al= tra linguo..." Me deskonkordas, nam per sat bona dicionario kun defini en I= do, ni povus uzar ta figurala senci en Ido e per Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS. = La problemo, kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca-Ido. Se tu = uzus la lexiko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quante vasta la defini esas... ultempe = mem sen ula precizigo di la senco. Do "tenua" signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e)", *e= n omna senci.* En la sama maniero, me konkluzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "g= alerio", ke lu signifikas en la Franca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke i= nkluzas la senco teatrala, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis t= a senco: https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/galerio Fine, la exempli da de Bea= ufront esas forsan eroroza, me konkordas. Danko pro savigar la existo di "e= ndetala" e "engrosa" da me! On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo = Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote:= > > > Me objecionas nulo a certena metaforala uzi di "grosa", "tenua" ed = altra > vorti. Me ipsa ofte uzas l'expresuro "grosa eroro" i.a. Tamen on ne= > exajerez. Per metaforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaciona susteno, = on > riskas miskompreno. Por komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la >= Franca, la Germana, la Angla od irg altra linguo... > > Couturat e Beaufro= nt esis tre (forsan mem tro) cirkonspekta pri metaforala > uzi. Exemple, en= lia Franca-Ido-lexiko (1915), sub "faible" (p. 237), on > lektas kom tradu= kuri ne nur "febla", ma anke "mikra", "tro indulgema" e > "ne-sonora" (pri = voco!). Sub "gros, grosse" (p. 277) on lektas kom > tradukuri ne nur "grosa= ", ma anke "dika", "mala", "ondoza", "grosiera", > "insultanta", "granda", = "multe riskanta", "gravida" e.a. On lektas anke > "engrosa komerco", "engr= osisto", do Beaufront eroris en sua KGD kande il > skribis "grose o detale"= vice "engrose od endetale" (*engros/* ed > *endetal/* ya existas kom apart= a e specala radiki ja de sat longa > tempo)... > > No, Couturat e Beaufront= ne esis tro "Franca" por komprenar sua propra > linguo konstruktita. Lia e= xtraordinara 8-pagina prefaco al mencionita > lexiko, certe lektinda, rilek= tinda, e mem tradukinda ad Ido, sendubite > montras ke li havas mento vere = internaciona, ke li suciis ante omno la > internaciona komprenebleso di Ido= e ke li esforcegis eskartar de la linguo > irga obstaklo kontre tala kompr= enebleso. > > 2017-01-17 17:50 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gma= il.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Tre bone! = Me suportas sive *dika*, sive *grosa*. Ma me ne aceptos *larja* >> . >> >> = La tre logikoza Louis Couturat ipsa uzis "dika literi" en un ek sua verki: = >> http://numelyo.bm-lyon.fr/f_view/BML:BML_00GOO01001370011053 >> 55841?vu= e=3D3&svue=3Dsimple >> >> Fakte, lu mem skribis parenteze "egiptiana", pro = la Franca termino >> tipografala "=C3=A9gyptien": http://www.cnrtl.fr/defin= ition/%C3%A9gyptien >> >> Pri tua antea questioni: >> >> "tenua voco" ne si= gnifikas "akuta voco". >> tenua voco =3D "filet de voix": voix t=C3=A9nue, = que l'on entend =C3=A0 peine >> http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/filet >> >> = "tenua vaporo" =3D tenua substanco =3D "substance t=C3=A9nue": Qui est peu = dense, >> peu consistant. http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3%A9nue >> >> O= mna dicionarii quin me kontrolis tradukas "tenua" a la Franca per >> "t=C3= =A9nu(e)", *sen plusa detalo o restrikto*. Me do poke komprenas pro quo >> = tu kredas, ke "tenua" esas plu preciza kam "t=C3=A9nu(e): http://www.cnrtl.= fr/ >> definition/t%C3%A9nu >> >> Simile, semblas ke la vorto "grosa" proba= s imitar la Franca "gros", tam >> libere kam posible. Yen exemplo ek la Kom= pleta Gramatiko: >> *Por ke vu povez pagar ta debajo, oportas ke vu kunpren= ez sat grosa sumo >> de pekunio.* >> >> Nu, semblas a me ke nule relatas du= dimensioni (o tri) hike. To esas >> simpla traduko di "une assez *grosse* = somme d'argent". >> >> Altra exemplo, ek la KGD: >> *Po quante vu vendas ta= flori? la senco esus: kad vu vendas li >> grandaquante, mikraquante, grose= o detale?* >> >> Yen "grose" signifikas "en gros" e "detale" signifikas "e= n d=C3=A9tail". >> Simpla, ka ne? >> >> O forsan Couturat e de Beaufront es= is tro "Franca" por komprenar lia >> propra linguo konstruktita... >> >> 20= 17-01-17 6:48 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]= >> : >> >>> >>> > > --94eb2c1cb94a3551660546521662 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu esas ank= e Angla.
tenua =3D tenuous =3D=C2=A02. Rare; subtile; not dense; -- sai= d of fluids.=C2=A0htt= p://www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous

Me anke= trovis libri en Google qui uzas "tenuous voice", ex. Guest of= a Sinner=C2=A0da James Wilcox (p. 40):
"They've = been phoning me," Una Merton went on in a tenuous voice, almost= a whisper.

Me ne bone komprenas la Hispana, m= a semblas, segun Google, ke "voz tenue" ya uzesas... Ka to vere e= sas nacionala expresuro???
"Con voz tenue y ojos entornad= os, Hajji relata su historia."
"Por komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca,= la Germana, la Angla od irg altra linguo..."
Me deskonk= ordas, nam per sat bona dicionario kun defini en Ido, ni povus uzar ta figu= rala senci en Ido e per Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS.

L= a problemo, kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca-Ido. Se tu u= zus la lexiko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quante vasta la defini esas... ultempe m= em sen ula precizigo di la senco. Do "tenua" signifikas "t= =C3=A9nu(e)", en omna senci.

En= la sama maniero, me konkluzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio",= ke lu signifikas en la Franca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke= inkluzas la senco teatrala, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis= ta senco:=C2=A0https://= io.wiktionary.org/wiki/galerio

Fine, la exempl= i da de Beaufront esas forsan eroroza, me konkordas. Danko pro savigar la e= xisto di "endetala" e "engrosa" da me!

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 a= t 3:34 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves6= 4@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&g= t; wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Me = objecionas nulo a certena metaforala uzi di "grosa", "tenua&= quot; ed altra vorti. Me ipsa ofte uzas l'expresuro "grosa eroro&q= uot; i.a. Tamen on ne exajerez. Per metaforala uzi tro "nacionala"= ;, sen internaciona susteno, on riskas miskompreno. Por komprenar Ido, on n= e mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, la Angla od irg altra linguo.= ..

Couturat e Beaufront esis tre (forsan mem tro) cirkonspekta pri = metaforala uzi. Exemple, en lia Franca-Ido-lexiko (1915), sub "faible&= quot; (p. 237), on lektas kom tradukuri ne nur "febla", ma anke &= quot;mikra", "tro indulgema" e "ne-sonora" (pri vo= co!). Sub "gros, grosse" (p. 277) on lektas kom tradukuri ne nur = "grosa", ma anke "dika", "mala", "ondoza= ", "grosiera", "insultanta", "granda", &= quot;multe riskanta", "gravida" e.a.=C2=A0 On lektas anke &q= uot;engrosa komerco", "engrosisto", do Beaufront eroris en s= ua KGD kande il skribis "grose o detale" vice "engrose od en= detale" (engros/ ed endetal/ ya existas kom aparta e spe= cala radiki ja de sat longa tempo)...

No, Couturat e Beaufront ne esis tro "Franca&q= uot; por komprenar sua propra linguo konstruktita. Lia extraordinara 8-pagi= na prefaco al mencionita lexiko, certe lektinda, rilektinda, e mem tradukin= da ad Ido, sendubite montras ke li havas mento vere internaciona, ke li suc= iis ante omno la internaciona komprenebleso di Ido e ke li esforcegis eskar= tar de la linguo irga obstaklo kontre tala komprenebleso.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
=
2017-01-17 17:50 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe M= orin gphmorin@gmail= .com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0=
=
=

Tre bone! Me suportas sive dika, siv= e grosa. Ma me ne aceptos larja.

La tre lo= gikoza Louis Couturat ipsa uzis "dika literi" en un ek sua verki:=

Fakte, lu mem skribis parenteze "egip= tiana", pro la Franca termino tipografala "=C3=A9gyptien": <= a href=3D"http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/%C3%A9gyptien" target=3D"_blank">h= ttp://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/%C3%A9gyptien

Pri tua antea questioni:

"tenua voco" ne signifikas "akuta voco".
tenua= voco =3D "filet de voix": voix t=C3=A9nue, que l'on entend = =C3=A0 peine=C2=A0http://www.cnrtl.fr/de= finition/filet

"tenua vaporo" =3D tenua substanco =3D &quo= t;substance t=C3=A9nue":=C2=A0Qui est peu dense, peu consistant.=C2=A0= http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition= /t%C3%A9nue

Omna dicionarii quin me= kontrolis tradukas "tenua" a la Franca per "t=C3=A9nu(e)&qu= ot;, sen plusa detalo o restrikto. Me do poke komprenas pro quo tu k= redas, ke "tenua" esas plu preciza kam "t=C3=A9nu(e):=C2=A0<= a href=3D"http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3%A9nu" target=3D"_blank">http:= //www.cnrtl.fr/definition/t%C3%A9nu

Simile, semblas ke la vorto "grosa" probas imitar la Franca= "gros", tam libere kam posible. Yen exemplo ek la Kompleta Grama= tiko:
Por ke vu povez= pagar ta debajo, oportas ke vu kunprenez sat grosa sumo de pekunio.=

Nu, semblas a me ke nule relatas d= u dimensioni (o tri) hike. To esas simpla traduko di "une assez gro= sse somme d'argent".

Altra exemplo, ek la KGD:
<= div class=3D"m_2180476433987509353m_5922938907515211230gmail-m_-40801912221= 26585553gmail-m_-4915894334643928285gmail_msg">Po quante vu vendas ta fl= ori? la senco esus: kad vu vendas li grandaquante, mikraquante, grose o detale?

Yen "grose&= quot; signifikas "en gros" e "detale" signifikas "= en d=C3=A9tail". Simpla, ka ne?

O = forsan Couturat e de Beaufront esis tro "Franca" por komprenar li= a propra linguo konstruktita...

2017-01-17 6:48 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo = Neves gneves64@gmai= l.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

<= br>

=
=
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Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Franca "= commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar". La verbo "co= mmuter" esas strikte transitiva. Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra = problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"..= . 2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < = linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe, > > Vu skribis: = > Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar > (= ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a > = "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto".= > Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interrupta= r > elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.= > > Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LN= V > falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me, la se= nco > di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"): startar o >= haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direcion= o > (voyo) di kurento. > > La defino di "acendar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumif= anta per igar (lu) > produktar flami, mem nur mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer d= onas exemplo metaf.: > "to inflame (the passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dye= r anke dicas ke > acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar ex= emple sigaro. > > Extensar la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar" k= onfundus > "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swichilo nur komencas o = cesas > funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kazo la kurento, se ol es= as tro > forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar fairo. > > On ne uza= s swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por > funcionigar mot= oro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto > precipua esas ke la= vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar > la problemo. > > K= ordiale, > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 > 13:58:15 -0500: > Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on= " e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" > ed "extingar". > "Extingez la = lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? > Ni vivas en t= ante ociema socio!" > > La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala)= lumo, ma se on > transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale = aplikar la vorti > ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne? > "Ho ve! La radio inf= ormas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la > televiziono." > > Ma forsan = vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me > konsideras la si= tueso tote absurda. > > La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vor= ti: commutateur > (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo). > Nu, me faci= s ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, > pos serchad= o, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch. > > Pro quo m= e, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus > "swichilo", min in= ternaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam > "interruptilo"? > > Per vua = exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar > (ulo) en ci= rkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a > "swichar",= t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". > Ube esa= s la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar > elektr= o-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. > > On Tu= e, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo= /aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke > la elektro povas fluar tra ol e f= uncionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on > "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To s= emblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. > Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angl= a "switch on" e "switch off"? > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmori= n@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 > 16:05:32 -0500: > Nu, me ne = komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" > ulo en od= ek quo? > > Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? > > 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] > : > > Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uza= ta > precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to t= urn > off). > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido > https://en.w= iktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido > > 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phili= ppe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] := > > Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos = > analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" = > esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota > = sinonimo di "komutar". > > Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926? > >= Gilles-Philippe > > > --001a11411f5ef37e53054652b2c1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o h= altigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono = (voyo) di kurento")=C2=A0kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar v= ua "swichar" kun "komutar" e "interruptar". M= a nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Franca "commuter= " e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "s= wichar".

La verbo "commuter" esas strikte= transitiva.

Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua pro= pra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez = "startar" e "haltigar"...

2017-01-11 = 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gn= eves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com<= /a>>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Se *optim/ ne existas kom aparta radiko, "optimist/ ed optimism/ c= erte esas aparta radiki, mem se on prizentas oli kom optim/ist ed optim/ism= ...

2017-01-11 15:55 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
<= u>
=C2=A0=
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la informo. Tu skribis: "optimis= t/ ed optimism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiki", or ka li vere esas a= parta radiki? Dyer separas -ist e -ism.

Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe =

=C2=A0
=

Kara Gi= lles-Philippe,

En SIL me propozis: =C2=A0

*optim/a. Qua atingis= la maxim bona stando [AFG optimal= | H =C3=B3ptimo | I ottimo= , otti= male | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8= =D0=BC=D0=B0=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E optimuma= ]. *optimigar. Igar ulo maxim bona posible: *optimigar la sanesala servi [A to optimize, optimise | = F optimiser | G optimieren | H optimizar, optimar | I ottimizzare | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1=82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D0=B8=D0= =B7=D0=B8=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B2=D0=B0=D1=82=D1=8C | <= span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"bell mt",serif;color:bl= ue" class=3D"m_4914288959324152475m_8406983901982581462gmail_msg" lang=3D"S= V">E optimumigi]. *optimajo, lo *optima. La maxim bona stando di ulo [AF optimum | G Optimum | H =C3=B3ptimo | I ottimo | R =D0=BE=D0=BF=D1= =82=D0=B8=D0=BC=D1=83=D0=BC | E optimumo]. = REM. optimist/ ed optimism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiki= e reguloze derivesez de *optim/. Fonti: (~e) Juste (Progreso 306, p.=C2=A07).


(Pri *pesima, *royala e.a. on facile po= vos kompozar simila artikli)


K= ordiale,

=

Gon=C3=A7alo=




2017-01-11 14:19 GMT+00:00 Gille= s-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.= com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara samideani,

Me trovis l= a vorti 'royal-ismo', 'royal-isto', 'optim-ismo', &= #39;optim-isto', 'pesim-ismo', 'pesim-isto', e.c., che = Dyer. Ka la radiki 'royal', 'optim' e 'pesim' havas= senco aparta?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe=C2=A0


=

=

=

Yen plusa problemo:

Me lektas en plura = fonti, olda or nova (Complete Manual, Dyer, Kompleta Gramatiko, Pesch), ke = -aj- kun verbo netransitiva expresas l'aganto.
=
Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. bavar, drool).

Or, me lektas omnaloke ke "= ;bavar" esas verbo netransitiva! Do on ne povas bavar ulo, ma <= i>ulo=C2=A0bavas!

Ma me trovas tala uzo plural= oke, mem en defini (Pesch):

spumo: 1. = Quaza moso qua naskas surface di liquido quan onu agitas, varmigas o qua fe= rmentacas. 2. Bavajo mosatra qua naskas ye la boko di ula ani= mali kande li esas ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI

<= /div>
Do, ka la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "= bavar", fakte, esas mixita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-13 21= :52 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Kara samideani,
Quo e= sas la difero inter -aj- ante 1925 e -aj- pos 1925?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
<= /div>
--001a113f8fa447dc130546059a2f-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4779 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 29432 invoked by uid 102); 14 Jan 2017 10:51:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 10:51:40 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 2492 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2017 10:51:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.121) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 10:51:40 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.53 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: aqyhOhEWLDse9jF1q_PfvCnMQBSDX.X66YfI1SAYoYAGiEiF xNfgfMIlfWMFdrBNcoZzVza9ykiIVj4MppBi_iabHa2nJC1AjndursnSgUqh cm4DCEDGrthjV.zB7UWbFxgkVsBRgsJFDv3GdxgPLyWubgOq7xm6nJpIWLvC wSbmDqBn5a2nphPGXYcXId5cNCgFrqgEkkF_b6wPjlw7UYggl3HH52ZLAY.V Ddz1uaC0IFO0hFat2g54_QozVT_jyNu06A7WO7uV_pKpDmR8CRw71wyMRAsG KCCB.mvROcfbWuuTLt2llKSnrJd_DZK6HRJd0TvvUe5PvMF.zmxNO2OLd8xY jPMnud36NxgRxF9eVuI6Vdz1rS5L1FEiZTrfZIvMllhBz_iXYVUnl7RBlB3l qxf.A8184IvYsqI2k1Yr9jHx1BeldG7BUp_8HHlfQj6x22BFdQIiyWO6ANKb ll0WCPCgMSNUPsjHZizJX7mOHVhAkizI2MVi4uN2k_yN2hWOiOI015TsHqfy WcZB3C4D9B38crzT519vWNmAUZ24I6M.riZYA66BEDTC079NA8w8ZOXj0H8h g.R0pw1cBN_epEw3yQHgELgfANoqQ4hKaQ07d21TdEJrUGTuqWCI1Fm6w_OC yJNtfjGd_6gg.4RHlHn0Dvdt4iKDpGnYIYQobDpYFTK2yol4UlO3UqOXkMWT 1KvyEQ7tDKo1gLJi0WzEK7EpoejAAnxAZi4yOQgJLLUF26zNvgfEKmktVsD5 fkRggZlKnD5VGOAf7xkOuEmPHbhs3DmzajB48HU1Ty7e4uwV7nmWePBdhNTN 91tm84RZt_FcCCGtf5c4yyhmK2X1ww.ACtjEDgu9r2f5e7JqRQNldfFNqFBL 864EVwEzcGfUc3I9gMZ93Qd8RGoDnMLf6ON2kgnAY2.UkYllRXuZXvSqU0XL CH7bt2uJ6RNehE00m125XVrpsMVD_lbl_POajubYcn0rnwq7PF76.E2syCwa c4l2ddZqaapnaaTAONEh6ZS6YwLIwyM7o.OpKcXF_0Mf_.6XGBGhntorpD9R niCLEFOrxxkpb2Y4GzN5AfyOnR02sRoltB52Mw7qyHH1.Z.gmVmuiQ3jFmjy b2AbDYQ30CDWwmbLhQJvtdgkzEqQblk01AqBFkDrJUB9EB2472zx7gzU3Ale TwFETSbZd9FHL8Bxr6uBBzclnmPb_Dj7CoEKiTkFGH7hsSVQjcysXhbZw4Ns T1xZ92Z.hnb1LeI.bVMcvVnvqkoey9AxM26bAUR.KRfxzs3IprE4pYcntEz0 tcQGzQg4aOFD04DZE.jYpMGZ90Soo7pzAhXtU5pgkdGFZD3fUyHpg8xnOGez kd6k16haRJxVfkV2IRa83y1UVy5slNKh0z03R6tU2UJK1v54ml1UDS5NkGgR zap7AtLZ01D5lqLv.WkOtiAZiKHr0bhHihTvZXRLoiTpmr4pbD7hEYhXiKW6 GaXX97LZ5y65EhXqhZ8bgLCBuyZgWAtX5hmKz5xG45Cp.Z8Ef6_FgWLVm7cV 3DZSPFV6UNzNQIIr2OTWP1l2QcYmyWffJvUBGeo8nEIOrYb9tPRbLxogna1C 2jqQUfmkn_h_TGOMVda2 Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f53.google.com) (209.85.213.53) by mta1006.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 10:51:40 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f53.google.com with SMTP id t8so48372496vke.3 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 02:51:40 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+zmPsPn249IwUs19I7hMsp3Sw9RTdogwTC8vbj0qp1o=; b=mhXJ6RmkwozbHNdK2sNkoz7VCYlWtJ7UN+ILSDMFc7NKgX7UHStxWjVN9EQ7PieaaQ 08BLIi3EL8Ytp+dHbgpioAoF8bM8JFXETdUdEG7yKKx+2dGPgnypsitEY78P27maEWwN Xizel/MbKDkm8TBKKtoKnjAYgjPqFiTTq7AHfdWTDjFXlyOe6fagwN0pA7Gbv5r0f95C NUmcijL2xIMUqv+GoSaGzkwUR79ghL0T8bOxMYecWWKgJvNKLJrIIZ3J50JDHMtoqTn0 YzxBd4mjBKhKAyZgC1i75+ETt6bSjMcPtCnZKXg2Tc+nICOSBIMzJR8z3egEY6JPXVAM 7aDg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJCGeVCxsQmm+tOoZWDKpkPg0D9KZRxa7hOuSHPLjkwUqcOhoIQ0DbU3rCvjTuxTT1NDBtPR+1MHzRyQQ== X-Received: by 10.31.109.70 with SMTP id i67mr11968753vkc.89.1484391099416; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 02:51:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 02:51:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2017 10:51:38 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c092d3830466705460bbcc7 Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=BaeVcKH8Xp01cqhp6tgxyyQZN9i0pjh6OX27oilsj_QF5HEk_qZJCA X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c092d3830466705460bbcc7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Danko pro tua demarshi! 2017-01-14 0:11 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Plezur= e! > > Me sendis retpostalo a la Biblioth=C3=A8que municipale de Lyon ed a = Google por > la *Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international* (1908). Lu skane= sis* da ci en > 2013. Regretinde, la *Dictionnaire international-fran=C3=A7= ais* ne (ja) > skanesas*. Malgre to, havar la parto Franco-Ido esus, meajud= ike, plu bona > kam havar nulo. > > Cadie, me recevis retpostalo da Google:= li aceptis mea demando publikigar > la dicionario Ido-English da Dyer en G= oogle Books. > > Yen lu: https://books.google.ca/books?id=3DHS0PAAAAQAAJ&pr= intsec=3Dfrontcover > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > On Fri, = Jan 13, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [linguolis= to] wrote: > >> >> >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >= > >> Danko pro la informo! >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo >> >> 2017-01-13 12:30 GMT+00= :00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, >>> Yen plusa eroro en = mea preantea mesajo: >>> >>> 1908, English-International >>> mujar =3D vent= o, maro (cf. roar) >>> >>> Me ya de longe trovis skanita* versiono di ta di= cionarii (da Google) en >>> la Interreto. Nu, me ja plurfoye mencionis li e= n mea blog-artikli... >>> >>> International-English >>> https://archive.org= /details/internationalen00jespgoog >>> >>> English-International >>> https:= //archive.org/details/englishinternati00beaurich >>> >>> Regretinde, mankas= en Int'l-English la komenco di la prefaco da >>> Jespersen. >>> >>> Me dur= as serchar International-Fran=C3=A7ais e Fran=C3=A7ais-International. >>> >= > >> > > --94eb2c092d3830466705460bbcc7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danko pro tua demarshi!

2017-01-14 0:11 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe = Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguol= isto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_-3116733909996282738ygrp-text">

Plezure!

Me sendis retpostalo a la Biblioth= =C3=A8que municipale de Lyon ed a Google por la Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7a= is-international (1908). Lu skanesis* da ci en 2013. Regretinde, la = Dictionnaire international-fran=C3=A7ais=C2=A0ne (ja) skanesas*. Malgre= to, havar la parto Franco-Ido esus, meajudike, plu bona kam havar nulo.

Cadie, me recevis retpostalo da Google: li aceptis m= ea demando publikigar la dicionario Ido-English da Dyer en Google Books.

Yen lu: https://books.= google.ca/books?id=3DHS0PAAAAQAAJ&printsec=3Dfrontcover

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
=

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Kara Gilles-Ph= ilippe,

Danko pro la informo!

Gon=C3=A7alo<= br>

2017-01-13 12:30 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Kara Gon= =C3=A7alo,
Yen plusa eroro en mea preantea mesajo:

1= 908, English-International
mujar =3D vento, maro (cf. roar)
<= br class=3D"m_-3116733909996282738m_-8008832642027075765gmail-m_-2749745780= 947511792m_-7376723956456921894m_109765723222788112m_214893436715159762gmai= l_msg">Me ya de longe trovis skanita* versiono di ta dicionarii (da Google)= en la Interreto. Nu, me ja plurfoye mencionis li en mea blog-artikli...
International-English
https://archive.org/= details/internationalen00jespgoog

English-Internati= onal
https://archive.org/details/englishinternat= i00beaurich

Regretinde, mankas en Int'l-English la k= omenco di la prefaco da Jespersen.

Me duras serchar Internat= ional-Fran=C3=A7ais e Fran=C3=A7ais-International.


<= /div>

=

--94eb2c092d3830466705460bbcc7-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4780 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 47511 invoked by uid 102); 14 Jan 2017 11:00:49 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m14.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 11:00:49 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 13183 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2017 11:00:49 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.82) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 11:00:49 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.179 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: OlOl.h4WLDvobZenPt6Ix7eeU.b8CQmWhpt465cQRbDzVfNm HVXONJaUF225C54UC9c6GIrnu.qQTX4v7BKS4N.HxrQYypiLNecpBwib6rMD 6Xc.WXkXugykgH.ejDBQr5CRFn_igzNay3hgMCHkXOFYo8SUAVwRlrOpCkUq xTZhC7XhBiVGiFNxGf5DEmMlqlKREbE5URm4uRJRYgUjuYjxd3RnKSDLtOqI 6FjcageaAw8_XjNsg14auziaynkt.y6DW1wo9aBPuWLLjloKmsSX6gmGhFUA 1nNAIq6g8EawMZkhtTQ62tOLxMKNLs4JyqpDb.3Wfv5oszhzN57lfymNx4Lj yLSZ4Xf3dgBqJdGkYqRjDAcwnWG9E_7O1yHep1YgfgSk3ofHkA2B4skuJ8cY nR9tkBlQQT5LhQGqymu9GUhBV0sdMSMlmF095pKPI5oV5jK9Z_EjmO9DEpTK btipYtBYgDupllSBZ8p0JM9gfoIwbs_bYNK0TVDpT9jysaPppH1pGhDQljE5 fSqy4f0XU1p0jz3cHoj.OjFMGBJMHOXwrm_Go4j2UZVoD4X4dvGEot9LZlgz Q1P0pcZDdf4cbSt7qR.6kJS0O4P6hiWuEex9p15yDwYzJW5oo3GrnLtRc38C gUXpmlPsfgvcEXWWLUbiAD.hlihBXNn2BBCGVEcgwYqH1w6tnrNXZUHMOk2B W0HxNT6iAxwfM.XWGflQOkVkm9KfNauj1MNmlJ6tHuGslvY5Vt.81.Abl5K6 M0TNZTt28FbtXRZgpfedhsuCZrcPGGNqbFne1Jn80WhL4enMK34u1sT4GEwu IzJyHixuIIjGmuK1O2DubbKOpfrVWBeuk1dtw8SSNZw455BMZ_fTxLxZtVyR SAkHhvsEs0ZMZFrK7bOr4UZ1mkIMkVEK1DsFXjHLCh3sLy4B77i9Zt5.V4Db S.4RzdhvlbqW_s3uFgZcgEo_kPuJpmRti8G59h0ePjuzH6dMwR0ebcNWr9iX oA3.VGzpvl.3jYiEWG_mxX_79NgNmp9WuY0Vyny4r90NlQLi1Zt3itijbtEr QYHnxJAVtYLAzYllwfbbKALhTRrA7DHe9eYJOFeuwwOWEIdwlvTE9hG4uBAy MP4J6YskS976Iu2BAhLDHqt95W2bJ2RcNMKqSrlEqrWKkBhEDSH58dVTvLwq ZZpkTXR4uOxUHHLTOU3dGXF.i8Lpa1JjJPE6ugUmK389hsDLls8l4JxHcul7 dforKHLN76cKC1xWbyuzSeeYQxyaUHP47vg- Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f179.google.com) (209.85.217.179) by mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 11:00:49 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f179.google.com with SMTP id i68so53495973uad.0 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 03:00:48 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=eDHRhYf3cBXUZ6/p0Xx50or8NRJ4mqDWgvVjWMkqApQ=; b=fHUiD28S+GZegDCwYluFOQYbM1DCP9h9HwLQhSR3yB0KQz1WahsFoNpHJJSdVxKFys 7akYIggnd5pkEwAg7kp5UNWRUCFMSUjSm1v4cptfFEONFoQr02oFuPfhCCdz9xYxaMld xcp1RZpvfPQvw8FxgbTr5glUT+cxD4u5ikWA3KVQpSoqD5XEWM6vWW/d+ofWeo/rglFq SmgCRloR0lOXi4hCpTc8O87d+9gvqC7xXr2u5+BBALNdLkP4bsrEWY+AGoomGOFssc69 IvILkyeiJ/Ha54aPHGtHRpN/3QD8EOgS5VAorn5fTDhALimy0opH7yz5zgU5mP0GJSEw rc9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ24YSELh5j+ol7nSQE2KQ83bNJlsPqZE7FRWra5H+2aknXOIQrRseQS/TzBWuF4jumImJn4IGrXqXxKA== X-Received: by 10.176.0.169 with SMTP id 38mr12696194uaj.46.1484391648261; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 03:00:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 03:00:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2017 11:00:47 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c169dae6fb7105460bdc89 Subject: Re: [linguo] -ismi ed -isti X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=xs6fgqQm26U0XwI4bwefp6da9FGY459xSQBU3lv292Zq69zTDJ1EPg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a11c169dae6fb7105460bdc89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas kom "latenta" a= parta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ en SIL: **militar*/*a.* Mili= tistala [A *military* | F *militaire* | G *Milit=C3=A4r-*, *milit=C3=A4risc= h* | H *militar* | I *militare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0= =B9 | E *militista*]. * *militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare (exem= ple, per sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo,= e.c.): **militarigar lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* Politikala sist= emo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. *2* Tendenco a fortigar armeo e s= olvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. **militaristo.* Adepto = di ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.* *militarism/* cesez existar kom aparta rad= iko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas *militaristo* e *militarigar* kom derivaji de *m= ilitarismo*, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di *militar/* k= om aparta radiko; Stuifbergen ( *Progreso* 338, p. 10: ****militara zono*).= 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [ling= uolisto] : > > > Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis= altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", > "antimilitar-ismo", e.c. > > Fors= an Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado. > > 2017-01-11 12:1= 9 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> --001a11c169dae6fb7105460bdc89 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) exis= tas kom "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ = en SIL:

*militar/a. Milit= istala [= A military | F militaire | G<= span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif;color:blue" lan= g=3D"SV"> Milit=C3=A4r-, milit=C3=A4risch | H militar | I militare | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E mili= tista]. *militarigar. Organizar o preparar *militare (exemple, p= er sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.c.)= : *militarigar lando, regiono. *militarismo 1 P= olitikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. 2 Tendenco a= fortigar armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. *= militaristo. Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. Rem. militarism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiko. <= span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif">Fonti:<= span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif"> Dyer prizentas militaristo e militarigar kom derivaji de militarismo, quo supo= zigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di militar/ kom aparta= radiko; Stuifbergen (Progreso 338, = p.=C2=A010: *militara zono).


2017-01-14 = 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.co= m>:
<= u>
=C2=A0

Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "mi= litar-ismo", "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.

Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado.

2017-01-11 12= :19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@= yahoogroups.com>:


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La vorto "bav= ajo", qua troveblas i.a. anke en la oficala Ido-dicionario (eroroze tituliz= ita kom "Ido-vortaro") da Hans Cornioley (1965), definita kom "salivo ekflu= anta", teoriale ya postulas ke la verbo "bavar" esez transitiva od adminime= mixita, vice "pure" netransitiva. Tamen nia vorto-libri prizentas ol kom n= etransitiva, forsan pro ke: 1) Ol ordinare judikesas kom netransitiva en ni= a fonto-lingui; 2) Ol esas verbo nur "un-objekta", t.e. on ne povas bavar a= ltro kam bavajo. Forsan existas altra opinioni od expliki plu bona. Gon= =C3=A7alo 2017-01-14 3:32 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail= .com [linguolisto] : > > > Yen plusa problemo= : > > Me lektas en plura fonti, olda or nova (Complete Manual, Dyer, Komple= ta > Gramatiko, Pesch), ke *-aj-* kun verbo netransitiva expresas *l'aganto= *. > > Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. *bavar*, *drool*). > > Or, m= e lektas omnaloke ke "bavar" esas verbo netransitiva! Do on ne povas > bava= r *ulo*, ma *ulo* bavas! > > Ma me trovas tala uzo pluraloke, mem en defini= (Pesch): > > *spumo: 1.* Quaza moso qua naskas surface di liquido quan onu= agitas, > varmigas o qua fermentacas. *2.* *Bavajo* mosatra qua naskas ye = la boko > di ula animali kande li esas ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI >= > Do, ka la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "bavar", fakte, esas > = mixita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza? > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gi= lles-Philippe > > 2017-01-13 21:52 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin : > >> Kara samideani, >> Quo esas la difero inter -aj- ante 19= 25 e -aj- pos 1925? >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> > > >= --94eb2c1497b4bff6f105460c1e62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

La re= guli pri la sufixo -aj, quale tu savas, esas expozita en KGD, sat detaloze,= ed oli tote ne chanjis de lore.

La vorto "bavajo&q= uot;, qua troveblas i.a. anke en la oficala Ido-dicionario (eroroze tituliz= ita kom "Ido-vortaro") da Hans Cornioley (1965), definita kom &qu= ot;salivo ekfluanta", teoriale ya postulas ke la verbo "bavar&quo= t; esez transitiva od adminime mixita, vice "pure" netransitiva. = Tamen nia vorto-libri prizentas ol kom netransitiva, forsan pro ke: 1) Ol o= rdinare judikesas kom netransitiva en nia fonto-lingui; 2) Ol esas verbo nu= r "un-objekta", t.e. on ne povas bavar altro kam bavajo.

<= /span>
Forsan existas altra opinioni od expliki plu bona.

Gon=C3=A7alo =C2=A0



=
2017-01-14 3:32 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] = <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Yen plusa problemo:

Me lektas en plura fonti, o= lda or nova (Complete Manual, Dyer, Kompleta Gramatiko, Pesch), ke -aj-<= /b> kun verbo netransitiva expresas l'aganto.

Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. bavar, d= rool).

Or, me lektas omnaloke ke "bavar&q= uot; esas verbo netransitiva! Do on ne povas bavar ulo, ma ulo=C2=A0bavas!

Ma me trovas tala uzo pluraloke, mem= en defini (Pesch):

spumo: 1. Quaza mo= so qua naskas surface di liquido quan onu agitas, varmigas o qua fermentaca= s. 2. Bavajo mosatra qua naskas ye la boko di ula animali kan= de li esas ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI

Do, ka la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "bavar&qu= ot;, fakte, esas mixita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza?
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017= -01-13 21:52 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe MMorin <gphmorin@gmail.com>= :
Kara samideani,
Quo esas la difero inter -aj- = ante 1925 e -aj- pos 1925?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


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domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f54.google.com) (209.85.215.54) by mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 17:02:08 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f54.google.com with SMTP id v186so57218619lfa.1 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 09:02:07 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=fQPr6gO2OIuN03NHQh/scQK1t/jfu6uPF1qFYkfWh9M=; b=BOnslCK83mFrCjbvzWstDsVmEt7IM124vPQFX67sSlGxPsYypkSDLRdfOXDMJMVwRE VqvnRZsIt3m/srPJVmfa83gu6D3CnCmb3IN1+y7ND71m3j8RzZxZGT1/XjZ9mVrBWx/4 3DHyv6kuBayCjX+zlKh9yqR7DLSIBqZB6c+HhVaoOxSzjC8USu2sqtWxA/4R/vXQZ1Q0 vLZ/D85L9RsBA3p7QroCzl5Q/sxT7T7vTjjMdqhpl0LT68lajTpJP5YIFx5oFpgRogS2 6HJBk8tTk8m7d6FY4y2QhO7uGVur8G3zqIoXSWrEYw3yclottXdaZjz5pV/nn9v0tgOJ 8HgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKC9otnt6zk1ju7wkGyyQWqS1AI3s92d4NXjFspzBIhSZtdWuplVEA/WEMd4Y6ZuFsnKKLZZPu5Dv/aQw== X-Received: by 10.46.71.140 with SMTP id u134mr9170910lja.16.1484413326130; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 09:02:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 09:02:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20161231223655.474607@D9B5MN3J> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2017 12:02:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11411c76010107054610e9e1 Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: [idolisto] Re: Dicionario dil ULI X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11411c76010107054610e9e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Certe, ambigueso esas evitinda se grava. GP 2017-01-14 11:25 GMT-05:00 qu= alevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > = Ca-kaze, me respondus a Sro Couturat (ed a tu): > Ho, yes, to esas aceptebl= a (quankam ne rekomendinda), sempre ke tal uzo ne > produktez ul-sorta ambi= gueso; tamen, se l' kuntexto ne helpas parkomprenar > la uzo di "hodie" e "= ca-die", esas preferinda uzar "hodie" nur por indikar > la dio konkreta, qu= an ni trairas nun, e "ca-die" nur por "en ica dio", nur > singulare. Yen ke= kelka-foye (hike ne tante importas ka nur un o plura > foyi) esas maxim gr= ava parklarigar ka singularo o pluralo. "Ni dicis > invitar ca-die, ma to e= sis nur hiere." > > (Partaka) > > > --001a11411c76010107054610e9e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Certe, ambigueso esas evitinda se grava.

GP

2= 017-01-14 11:25 GMT-05:00 qualev= istandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >:
=C2=A0
=

Ca-kaze, me respondus = a Sro Couturat (ed a tu):=C2=A0

Ho, yes, to esas aceptebla (quankam ne rekomendinda), sempre ke tal uzo = ne produktez ul-sorta ambigueso; tamen, se l' kuntexto ne helpas parkom= prenar la uzo di "hodie" e "ca-die", esas preferinda uz= ar "hodie" nur por indikar la dio konkreta, quan ni trairas nun, = e "ca-die" nur por "en ica dio", nur singulare. Yen ke = kelka-foye (hike ne tante importas ka nur un o plura foyi) esas maxim grava= parklarigar ka singularo o pluralo. "Ni dicis invitar ca-die, ma to e= sis nur hiere."=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0(Partaka)=C2=A0<= /span>

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La problemo pri -aj- esas, ke me analizis lua defino= da Dyer, e me komparis lu a ta da la Kompleta Gramatiko, e me trovis *nula= difero*. Ka lua uzo reale chanjis? Tua du idei bone explikas pro quo "asp= irar" esas transitiva dum ke "expirar" esas netransitiva. Itere, "expirajo= " esas en Dyer. GP 2017-01-14 6:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@= gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Gilles-= Philippe, > > La reguli pri la sufixo -aj, quale tu savas, esas expozita en= KGD, sat > detaloze, ed oli tote ne chanjis de lore. > > La vorto "bavajo"= , qua troveblas i.a. anke en la oficala Ido-dicionario > (eroroze titulizit= a kom "Ido-vortaro") da Hans Cornioley (1965), definita > kom "salivo ekflu= anta", teoriale ya postulas ke la verbo "bavar" esez > transitiva od admini= me mixita, vice "pure" netransitiva. Tamen nia > vorto-libri prizentas ol k= om netransitiva, forsan pro ke: 1) Ol ordinare > judikesas kom netransitiva= en nia fonto-lingui; 2) Ol esas verbo nur > "un-objekta", t.e. on ne povas= bavar altro kam bavajo. > > Forsan existas altra opinioni od expliki plu b= ona. > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > > 2017-01-14 3:32 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >= > >> Yen plusa problemo: >> >> Me lektas en plura fonti, olda or nova (Comp= lete Manual, Dyer, Kompleta >> Gramatiko, Pesch), ke *-aj-* kun verbo netra= nsitiva expresas *l'aganto*. >> >> Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. = *bavar*, *drool*). >> >> Or, me lektas omnaloke ke "bavar" esas verbo netra= nsitiva! Do on ne povas >> bavar *ulo*, ma *ulo* bavas! >> >> Ma me trovas = tala uzo pluraloke, mem en defini (Pesch): >> >> *spumo: 1.* Quaza moso qua= naskas surface di liquido quan onu agitas, >> varmigas o qua fermentacas. = *2.* *Bavajo* mosatra qua naskas ye la boko >> di ula animali kande li esas= ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI >> >> Do, ka la netransitiveso di "bava= r" esas eroro e "bavar", fakte, esas >> mixita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esa= s eroroza? >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> 2017-01-13 2= 1:52 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin : >> >>> Kara sami= deani, >>> Quo esas la difero inter -aj- ante 1925 e -aj- pos 1925? >>> >>>= Kun kordiala saluti, >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> >> >> > > --94eb2c1cd53eb1bd02054610d2bb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danko pro la informo.

La problemo pri -= aj- esas, ke me analizis lua defino da Dyer, e me komparis lu a ta da la Ko= mpleta Gramatiko, e me trovis nula difero. Ka lua uzo reale chanjis?=

Tua du idei bone explikas pro quo "aspirar&q= uot; esas transitiva dum ke "expirar" esas netransitiva.

Itere, "expirajo" esas en Dyer.

GP

2017-01-14 6:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@= yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Gi= lles-Philippe,

La reguli pri la sufixo -aj, quale tu sav= as, esas expozita en KGD, sat detaloze, ed oli tote ne chanjis de lore.
=
La vorto "bavajo", qua troveblas i.a. anke en la = oficala Ido-dicionario (eroroze titulizita kom "Ido-vortaro") da = Hans Cornioley (1965), definita kom "salivo ekfluanta", teoriale = ya postulas ke la verbo "bavar" esez transitiva od adminime mixit= a, vice "pure" netransitiva. Tamen nia vorto-libri prizentas ol k= om netransitiva, forsan pro ke: 1) Ol ordinare judikesas kom netransitiva e= n nia fonto-lingui; 2) Ol esas verbo nur "un-objekta", t.e. on ne= povas bavar altro kam bavajo.

= Forsan existas altra opin= ioni od expliki plu bona.

Gon=C3=A7alo =C2=A0



2017-01-14 3:32 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Yen plusa problemo:

Me lektas en plura= fonti, olda or nova (Complete Manual, Dyer, Kompleta Gramatiko, Pesch), ke= -aj- kun verbo netransitiva expresas l'aganto.

Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. bavar<= /b>, drool).

Or, me lektas omnaloke ke &quo= t;bavar" esas verbo netransitiva! Do on ne povas bavar ulo, ma = ulo=C2=A0bavas!

Ma me trovas tala uzo plura= loke, mem en defini (Pesch):

spumo: 1.= Quaza moso qua naskas surface di liquido quan onu agitas, varmigas o qua f= ermentacas. 2. Bavajo mosatra qua naskas ye la boko di ula an= imali kande li esas ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI

=
Do, ka la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "= ;bavar", fakte, esas mixita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
<= /div>

2017-0= 1-13 21:52 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Kara samideani,
Quo esas la difero inter -aj- ant= e 1925 e -aj- pos 1925?

Kun kordiala saluti,
=
Gilles-Philippe


<= /div>


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Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e "atik-i= sto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? E "metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus = en aparta paragrafo, ka ne? GP 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Nev= es gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > = O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas kom "latenta" >= aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ en SIL: > > **militar*/*a.*= Militistala [A *military* | F *militaire* | G *Milit=C3=A4r-*, > *milit=C3= =A4risch* | H *militar* | I *militare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD= =D1=8B=D0=B9 | E *militista*]. * > *militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *mil= itare (exemple, per sendar > soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la p= ovo di armeo, e.c.): **militarigar > lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* = Politikala sistemo en qua > preponderas la *militara povo. *2* Tendenco a f= ortigar armeo e solvar > konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. **mi= litaristo.* Adepto di > ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.* *militarism/* cesez e= xistar kom aparta > radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas *militaristo* e *militari= gar* kom derivaji > de *militarismo*, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80= =9D existo di *militar/* kom aparta > radiko; Stuifbergen (*Progreso* 338, = p. 10: ****militara zono*). > > > 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe= Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > = >> >> >> Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo"= , >> "antimilitar-ismo", e.c. >> >> Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por s= impligar la lektado. >> >> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gn= eves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>>= > > --001a11402e1c7b3d6a05461108c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus &quo= t;atik-ismo" e "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus,= ka ne?

E "metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo"= ; ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne?

GP

2017-01-14 6:00= GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves6= 4@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&g= t;:
=C2=A0 =
=

O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/&= quot; (e.a.) existas kom "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribi= ta pri *militar/ en SIL:

*militar<= /b>/a. Militistala [A military | F militaire | G Milit=C3=A4r-, milit=C3=A4risch= | H militar | I militare | <= span style=3D"font-family:"bell mt",serif;font-variant:small-caps= ;color:blue" lang=3D"SV">R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD= =D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E militista]. *militarigar. Organizar o preparar= *militare (exemple, per sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar l= a povo di armeo, e.c.): *militarigar lando, regiono. *mili= tarismo 1 Politikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara pov= o. 2 Tendenco a fortigar armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue internac= iona) per milito. *militaristo. Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. Rem. militarism/ cesez existar kom= aparta radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas = militaristo e militarigar kom derivaji de milit= arismo, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di mil= itar/ kom aparta radiko; Stuifbergen= (Progreso 338, p.=C2=A010: *militara zono).



=
2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala &quo= t;militar-ismo", "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.

Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado.

2017-01-1= 1 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] &l= t;linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com>:


--001a11402e1c7b3d6a05461108c3-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4786 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 16952 invoked by uid 102); 14 Jan 2017 19:49:36 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 19:49:36 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 28741 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2017 19:49:36 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2017 19:49:36 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.46 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: cw_hONwWLDuIm4fDuiLEB2CYxCPDGWQgIPxYRJBvLkO_WqFS cVldXoj7ueeriM6tcOYgyBZHayrGIhJdtLpooTAoloH7ZwIg.sBg8sVZxc8Q TPT1wviASTj8E1mucsKRaXs6RLJkjf_hLvzP7vtoYDxNEUTOl8bjxxkjJ3n0 CXU2SSYksIle26nGBLbRme.qBMnACPVC07Kjyl1YEIOPm1WZYxg2YXSYCOTP OOjaXzQGIRdL4VXrye3Q4eew2C1CVHbe23SpGIyFBvLm9vs_i7HVqbs5NkZL RSubWU_FeefUSv06sVQ3EWJML5glAhOisvUGZ7dDsJoR8aEKStCrKpsmi5Mj a7dKKzJQkYMJsegryl1fnqUicfj4pdRqLKXREcnAVGUnk5EndRyMA7eECyg7 pN2hwH.zUbMyToOfs3fCfllEUOCF4old3UEEG5VFKZUnDV4nezd6abP8yu9C SD87rmo55JR4a.ewJQ0fkFgUUmE3diAze4_gO75xFKQsnJ3L6..iWWeMUbm9 ZGDdSIlZdk0QTz_WmbvzCxJ1hVqioOr.3AMcwqXYHKLYFKT7NEgxVY.fDdMQ rJehzclWCvpk2LDh3H_gTplO_D1kp.pqIjsauILCsoL14ql.xVI8051DmXss DIQHYI3HGa58oijT3QhpOH6fW6aDTeSdSGfIQGRPODHRV2Na6DmRvZMp5dYu x3WUgK_Xs6g.3HoaZArw3ZJc3lnQZvbuSckeThOxKsEQfrFHjeewaruk7wSU o2hvSvd8paTd_eSncCRBRo6c_zv.vyEL1WvtTn3_Zs_ahRcOqJa0bld3Kk4E 1zEreH3BBzABI6Tnke6Uas2UJWKmOj.njxMhuzBr6ipLXmLbq_XgaseL3.2a C6WVNcFwASu5xz5CqsSqyA_LIBzQ.M5LZyHt7_OmvF48D_zTm4vFjoobG9Xz NY8.HLY37dnbRft7EbuZObqkzDp2c3ppG8piEjkk2OCdNHqbkl6SjT7iWd06 UxxRQIWYqpb_49KCLbmAsaB4w6NonCk.J2tYbihnrKsnWM8aazBikqCRTLmS FdZjYigLmnlhdVlf5IeQ2HHPvEwY4TEbUVs3gLQnz4t.suj4AVqRZJss0fCC 3ftT9T4HMq5Mf8jmt5.EohPA.CDjnDQNQLvZthcstINEYxSrjrlZ.KP92lOm o3MAzE57aWUU1cRNrBHuY_9SP6agHcO5X9Tjtchcnfxi5596Jz8u6afsYn.j 83zLMO1JkpWqJgvBQEs2TZrIeE4xBAcwso9P1dJALbfOjHL1jvmixeVdVCiN RUE4coOl Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f46.google.com) (209.85.215.46) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 19:49:36 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f46.google.com with SMTP id z134so55111918lff.3 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 11:49:35 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=wtrrGk/NUPXDMjDgE3qvP9bM1canrC9xfYc9I7manvE=; b=anqMLDdbMNUi0C55tE3fH7Ytns4CiLILDZ8GaivhRKIsB2w0J7gqRmzvIjB9UdfB4W vbuZqfWYcDoKWvWFey66d4EEyNvasFAdHBvlont7JNIPrXWLU5KNGECjqnJ8szxC2fCH eSQzOCEhcOBO5rr8V/HCt2wiwWfl5RAX04sP8IJT26TXXf9EEwp3jddgoz/T2QI7PrLB xarFwrag90VQyopMf0/Gbn4b4R31I4040Bfax8e7CumHziPmMnG73sORkMJClEd5qFWE wU5pHhWTDj3BI3jOjcIKBaKmnHojcuWH6SM0HzGQzZ+1kuE/Jdn8nxDvM7nHDQs3AZcK Aoiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJk7BcCBBth/2pBI6+UOYiGkP4ZNwjwp4l+YoYPlHkla/Dhx7RGMiJ0cdXmOiQN/ye6BQRG4XGFUMgzdg== X-Received: by 10.25.22.104 with SMTP id m101mr8232501lfi.17.1484423374397; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 11:49:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 11:49:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2017 14:49:34 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114015e2ed68e10546133f44 Subject: Pri "retro" e "retroe"??? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a114015e2ed68e10546133f44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara samideani, Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro: https://io.wiktion= ary.org/wiki/retro Lu deskriptas "retro" quale vorto e "retroe" kom sua de= rivajo. Me anke trovis "retr-o" che Dyer (cf. *retro*) e "retroe" (cf. *b= ackwards* ): *retr-o:* (*adv.*) backwards. =E2=80=94 L *backward(s):* dop= e, retro-e; (*with movements*) ad-dope; kontre-sinsa; [e.c.] Or, la Kompl= eta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" esas olima imprimeroro: "Retroe (komp. *tro= e*) trovesas en 'Dictionnaire Francais-Ido', p. 463: *reculons* (*=C3=A0*),= retroe, e 2 linei plu supre on devas lektar anke *retroe* por 'en reculant= ', vice *retro qua esas imprimeroro*." Pluse, la "retr-o" di Dyer certe es= as eroro nam on ne povas derivar adverbo de adverbo... Do, me havas kelka = questioni. (1) Ka "retro" kom vorto existas ed esas oficala? (2) Ka "retro= e" esas quale "ankore", "anke", e.c., t.e. adverbi sen radiko? (3) Se (2) e= sas vera, pro quo certena dicionarii skribas *retro-e* dum ke li skribas *a= nkore*, *anke*, e.c.? (4) Pro quo la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" es= as *prepoziciono*? 100. =E2=80=94 La *prepozicioni* formacas derivaji (per= -a, -e, -o) se la signifiko lo permisas (25). Ex.: avana, avane, avano; do= pa, dope, dopo (26); apuda, apude; cisa, cise; transa, transe; fora, fore; = proxima, proxime; suba, sube; sura, sure; supera, supere; extera, extere; d= ume; antea, antee; kontrea, kontree; *retroa*, *retroe*, e.c. (5) Se "retr= o" esas ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? "On arestis la homo pro ke lu ve= his retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on povus dicar "On arestis la homo pro ke = lu retrovehis la cirkulado." ??? (6) Ka "retroe" expresas direciono o movo?= Nam Dyer sugestas "saltar ad-avane" e "saltar retro" dum ke Pesch skribas = "ad-retroe" (cf. *repulsar* )! Perplexe questionante, Gilles-Philippe --001a114015e2ed68e10546133f44 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara samideani,
Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortar= o:

Lu deskriptas &quo= t;retro" quale vorto e "retroe" kom sua derivajo.
=
Me anke trovis "retr-o" =C2=A0che Dyer (cf. ret= ro) e "retroe" (cf. backwards):

retr-o: (adv.) backwards. =E2=80=94 L


backward(s): dope, retro-e; (with movements) ad-dope= ; kontre-sinsa; =C2=A0[e.c.]

Or, la Kompleta G= ramatiko dicas ke "retro" esas olima imprimeroro:

<= /div>
"Retroe (komp. troe) trovesas en 'Dictionnai= re Francais-Ido', p. 463: reculons (=C3=A0), retroe, e 2 = linei plu supre on devas lektar anke retroe por 'en reculant'= ;, vice retro qua esas imprimeroro."
Pluse, la "retr-o" di Dyer certe esas eroro nam on ne= povas derivar adverbo de adverbo...

Do, me havas = kelka questioni.

(1) Ka "retro" kom vort= o existas ed esas oficala?
(2) Ka "retroe" esas quale &= quot;ankore", "anke", e.c., t.e. adverbi sen radiko?
(3) Se (2) esas vera, pro quo certena dicionarii skribas retro-e = dum ke li skribas=C2=A0ankore, anke, e.c.?
(4) Pro = quo la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" esas prepoziciono?

100. =E2=80=94 La prepozicioni for= macas derivaji (per -a, -e, -o) se la signifiko lo permisas (25). Ex.: avan= a, avane, avano; dopa, dope, dopo (26); apuda, apude; cisa, cise; transa, t= ranse; fora, fore; proxima, proxime; suba, sube; sura, sure; supera, supere= ; extera, extere; dume; antea, antee; kontrea, kontree; retroa, r= etroe, e.c.

(5) Se "retro" esa= s ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? "On arestis la homo pro ke lu veh= is retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on povus dicar "On arestis la hom= o pro ke lu retrovehis la cirkulado." ???
(6) Ka "retro= e" expresas direciono o movo? Nam Dyer sugestas "saltar ad-avane&= quot; e "saltar retro" dum ke Pesch skribas "ad-retroe"= (cf. repulsar)!

Perplexe questionante,
Gilles-Philippe
--001a114015e2ed68e10546133f44-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4787 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 34601 invoked by uid 102); 15 Jan 2017 01:04:34 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2017 01:04:34 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 11670 invoked from network); 15 Jan 2017 01:04:34 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2017 01:04:34 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.45 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: YtSNvggWLDuamLA8sGH2MR4WUGOW0ij5u.nCCZ8LLCFmjmX9 P1y2wjW.lz656thnWiA3xdCndy_GDKRgX3WEEmml.jHy4_hcOPGzONuE_8Z8 4ajScXoA0sp8be0KVEZedZsvd1XYJnOzD.IU_vERz.o9rO9r8nJqKgBrvXbk X6H5FKZJVMHJygVk2oaODnoVbf2Oi.gAk8fOZC9VB1pHiBXopIgQcj_sp4B5 0sDuYaHu9nkbDPMR95PM9YgukvTfYjCCn6R2eCa7Ao9o18E0_N8DctKARspe ysc0Bt0SD8ZVq3x4UieDibKNMhp8CCGvUritDXu.BR.psiLOLQj7k3vQHQ4q klNMsP5HMKIZKXPbqbUP32WdImYmM9QHffz1xPbRVrDwxKL491Lz59H5zsKr B94kWK.LsKAc1J2oq_x5STG9lXqWvNc.8Kp8mICg5.p5w_PJj1fzXQ48EZAO V8TBThTYRmRwDHtxu84FwlyO4cpYuq8r7TYkGkVQIEoa90FlJR2ga1O9ezZ9 38mnknb_Hn8YrmNxbdhtYHpzhiWisvjNeaPe3Hn.sPl6higbXRK.X9sN2tsX Gn07BSLziBWTkiLO6mU9hPJlaLPNDwyCDs8xVW9vKV5np2HEWPpICRCddfRU tnsBlw2T3BCHBKxdJtczwfbbLZTfcFKlj7oQLSvwLr19TZyYjtxVjSazeosU .K2x6Pta8tzZdask0tX_MSkyqDaqt_Rx0yZ3rSFbCpYPBPHrNtPneBh2wBmo ZlJ6znOUThbSKduzyHwfX.EEMrJR.Dzdd2caEoH.XhWthshrOs2I_mNJPGlo bsgz_UPPb6Mbwblm0ZTfEMnrpgT7zbVKCi06qHStSydAtnaPDqpStVFehyDb sKquYMf5HyVQp4W6UglszuwlQHsazyK3yRS7Fpr4zIooVDeldYkOxcC3yc3Q CduXKLokFq3Vx7ZPIuNNVvz8IwRUfd4DQXDhvuAJwIHTrLtafTox1J9zf49M eVBSXRiEsqhc0Ceol56Tib3N.mTPBL9Y0akkrve.70AH3mqA_vxR6c.nUikQ t0.uE.bvW8y9ye5iT9EcnKu1DOP1c5s9pYmO_L9u3Iwxf2d3HVCEoVTa_6tv GjgMoB.TJV7nTrSJ9MWmj3VIaB_4SF3eoraMmWceHbI2feAPo_UYrAVWqwA. aajQlYlGgUJADm2v8qog.3TTRDL9sn0VVoc93vjZgCKaa6LTaH0g7_FGEI3j Im6GTujNiSSkaOWL3xMOHa7tZ8x1qWM196ahmAymBCtJStVFYcLNIrr77qNP ctE0iHX9qV3kaHx5lahiiejjpJ7zYJap2z5dN_iStRIx4Yyg_7XYscWXNBK_ YO9UGO0woZGi80BoEDKcUuP027Xx34BcoPV_Nl1VoUUfHP_FCiARc.tgN24v H7Bfjp35sQAyBzrfMyJ4arpSd58wC12BBX_f4zUPwROIsaxBjI9ypLQYv_aR fovLXZnqXbOSVb8WVsyTZxBwlPYJMMGmF4jXutlIHd6yDcXsSAxNz2m4W3fa wlw0dQ.8uWpL0mnB7QyO5j4Oq7loRGsvZQHvk94DZ.xELffJgxszaFOrmWeh CJ0F6gRXf1LNoT2gmEx.GjflE7d0gqjq9Q-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f45.google.com) (209.85.215.45) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 15 Jan 2017 01:04:34 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f45.google.com with SMTP id m78so60782092lfg.2 for ; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 17:04:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=1F3bUPlmVZfI5sW1qVPiLWn0b27JYFmCDiKjVZIOBtc=; b=gjL1UZ+Hj5jdHR04Wlain0fJlOpqD7A1xkaMFVNN7WaaO96RQSebB5bCizGzxguDUY qFtuVLw10t8XuCgQ8wCabkna0MTbRoYTIQmS0ShSVITFrqTg/LTOnXw36F7u6HTPr/Nh YDle1+3Kjgqm4fL9iUtHMqYHCej97X5TMa6jElIX5GAVICfx/AY7QcOINtdOmEVuyIht eLYqIK03F/aTdKINOg+fbiL7FpdwAzbDpzMDbe/svYrZL6Na122ek7fV4r8/Ok89WFtY u6H1ABMFHIPnG2/vXfF/VXkA5u7ZFe65jqOud71Yk9+UX9sJYduLYGsXk3LjFCju151N mYPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKI6EhpONBXn7DSIet+eBgzEkAe/XJjuFBvDSh5YkrHThdf4DonzLwfNrraBFEJZLdJRQnQaZXn6fCihg== X-Received: by 10.46.74.26 with SMTP id x26mr9483872lja.51.1484442273236; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 17:04:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Jan 2017 17:04:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2017 20:04:32 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045ec30e62cbfe054617a66e Subject: Re: [linguo] Re: Pri "champiniono", "malyoto" e la litero "y" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045ec30e62cbfe054617a66e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me adjuntis "poliomielito" a mea artiklo: https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/= pri-y/ Yes, *cianogeno esus justa vorto. Nulo impedus ni facar tala chanjo= . Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-10 12:55 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [lin= guolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Ho, yes! Anke me pripensab= is ta vorto: poliomielito. Tote normal, segun > me. > E relate "ciano", for= san esus posibla preferar ed uzar sempre "cianogeno" > (e "cianogena"), ma = konservar, tal qual, la cetera vorti relatanta: > cianido, edc. To permisus= a ni la koloro "ciana" o lo cian-kolora. (Me anke > preferus uzar la formi= "oxigeno, hidrogeno, nitrogeno", edc., kam le plu > kurta, se por nur ta= elementi) > > (Partaka) > > > --f403045ec30e62cbfe054617a66e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me adjuntis "poliomielito" a mea artiklo:
https://bovino-lakto.rhcl= oud.com/pri-y/

Yes, *cianogeno esus justa = vorto. Nulo impedus ni facar tala chanjo.

Gilles-P= hilippe

2017-01-10 12:55 GMT-05:00 qua= levistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.= com>:
=
=C2=A0<= /span>
=

Ho, yes! Anke me pripensa= bis ta vorto: poliomielito. Tote normal, segun me.=C2=A0

E relate "ciano", forsan esus posibla= preferar ed uzar sempre "cianogeno" (e "cianogena"), m= a konservar, tal qual, la cetera vorti relatanta: cianido, edc. To permisus= a ni la koloro "ciana" o lo cian-kolora. (Me anke preferus uzar = la formi =C2=A0 "oxigeno, hidrogeno, nitrogeno", edc., kam le plu= kurta, se por nur ta elementi)=C2=A0

=C2=A0(Part= aka)=C2=A0

=

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En la Portugalana, exemple, on parolas ne nur p= ri verbi transitiva e netransitiva, ma anke pri verbi "direte transitiva", = "nedirete transitiva" e mem "bitransitiva". Tamen mem ica plu detaloza qual= ifiko esas nesuficanta por expresar la tre komplexa e nuancoza realajo verb= ala ne nur en Ido, ma anke en nia lingui nacional. Me propozis altraspeca e= xpliko en mea artiklo "Pri transitiveso en Ido" (publikigita en mea verko "= Linguala babili", 2002, qua balde, pos revizo, itere disponebleskos en la r= eto), ed anke pri la verbala realajo di Esperanto e la transitiveso di lua = verbi (temo polemikala anke en Esperantia) me skribis esayo en la verda lin= guo (multe plu detaloza kam la mencionita Ido-artiklo), sub la formo di Pla= tonala dialogo inter Zamenhof, L. de Beaufront, Kabe e Grabowski, qua publi= kigesis unesme da Haupenthal en 2000 e duesme da UEA (en antologio) en 2015= . Nek l'una (la Ido-artiklo) nek l'altra (la Esperanto-esayo) produktis gra= nda (o mem irga) eko, segun quante me savas... En amba verki me argumentas= i.a. ke, por saveskar quale uzar certena verbo (kun o sen objekto, kun o s= en prepoziciono, e, en la kazo di Esperanto, kun o sen akuzativo), esas plu= importanta, plu utila e mem plu decidigiva analizar la senco e la signifik= o di la koncernata verbo kam etiketizar ol kom "transitiva" o "netransitiva= ". Yen du exempli: 1) Pri "bavar" (temo di tua antea mesajo). Olua defino = che Pesch esas yena: =C2=ABLasar fluar la salivo ek la boko=C2=BB. Se la de= fino esas korekta =E2=80=93 e me ya opinionas ke ol esas tala =E2=80=93 do = on povas facile certeskar pri la senco e signifiko di la verbo ed anke pri = lua uzo-maniero. Se, dum bavar, la bavanto lasas fluar sua salivo ek la bok= o, do la salivo quan lu lasas fluar ek la boko certe esas bavajo, sen egard= o a ke on qualifikas la verbo kom "transitiva" o "netransitiva". 2) Pri "e= xpirar" (temo di tua jusa mesajo). Olua unesma defino che Pesh esas yena: = =C2=ABEkpulsar de la pulmoni (la areo qua uzesis por respiro)=C2=BB. Se la = defino esas korekta =E2=80=93 e me ya opinionas ke ol esas tala =E2=80=93 d= o on povas facile certeskar pri la senco e signifiko di la verbo ed anke pr= i lua uzo-maniero. Se, dum expirar, la expiranto ekpulsas de sua pulmoni la= aero qua uzesis por respiro, do la uzita aero quan lua pulmoni ekpulsas ce= rte esas expirajo, sen egardo a ke on qualifikas la verbo kom "transitiva" = o "netransitiva". Anke la du cetera defini di "expirar" esas analizebla tal= e, ma me ne volas tedar mea tre poka lektanti per tro longa mesajo... Kord= iale, Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-14 16:55 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gph= morin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > Danko pro= la informo. > > La problemo pri -aj- esas, ke me analizis lua defino da Dy= er, e me > komparis lu a ta da la Kompleta Gramatiko, e me trovis *nula dif= ero*. Ka > lua uzo reale chanjis? > > Tua du idei bone explikas pro quo "as= pirar" esas transitiva dum ke > "expirar" esas netransitiva. > > Itere, "ex= pirajo" esas en Dyer. > > GP > > 2017-01-14 6:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Nev= es gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> = >> >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> La reguli pri la sufixo -aj, quale tu sav= as, esas expozita en KGD, sat >> detaloze, ed oli tote ne chanjis de lore. = >> >> La vorto "bavajo", qua troveblas i.a. anke en la oficala Ido-dicionar= io >> (eroroze titulizita kom "Ido-vortaro") da Hans Cornioley (1965), defi= nita >> kom "salivo ekfluanta", teoriale ya postulas ke la verbo "bavar" es= ez >> transitiva od adminime mixita, vice "pure" netransitiva. Tamen nia >>= vorto-libri prizentas ol kom netransitiva, forsan pro ke: 1) Ol ordinare >= > judikesas kom netransitiva en nia fonto-lingui; 2) Ol esas verbo nur >> "= un-objekta", t.e. on ne povas bavar altro kam bavajo. >> >> Forsan existas = altra opinioni od expliki plu bona. >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo >> >> >> >> 2017-01-= 14 3:32 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto]= : >> >>> >>> >>> Yen plusa problemo: >>> >>> = Me lektas en plura fonti, olda or nova (Complete Manual, Dyer, Kompleta >>>= Gramatiko, Pesch), ke *-aj-* kun verbo netransitiva expresas *l'aganto*. >= >> >>> Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. *bavar*, *drool*). >>> >>> O= r, me lektas omnaloke ke "bavar" esas verbo netransitiva! Do on ne >>> pova= s bavar *ulo*, ma *ulo* bavas! >>> >>> Ma me trovas tala uzo pluraloke, mem= en defini (Pesch): >>> >>> *spumo: 1.* Quaza moso qua naskas surface di li= quido quan onu agitas, >>> varmigas o qua fermentacas. *2.* *Bavajo* mosatr= a qua naskas ye la boko >>> di ula animali kande li esas ecitita od iritita= . =E2=80=93 AFHI >>> >>> Do, ka la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "= bavar", fakte, esas >>> mixita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza? >>> >= >> Kun kordiala saluti, >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> >>> 2017-01-13 21:52 GMT-05= :00 Gilles-Philippe Morin : >>> >>>> Kara samideani, >>= >> Quo esas la difero inter -aj- ante 1925 e -aj- pos 1925? >>>> >>>> Kun k= ordiala saluti, >>>> Gilles-Philippe >>>> >>> >>> >> > > --f403045e3510abdf110546185732 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
La pro= blemo venas anke de ke la qualifiki "transitiva" e "netransi= tiva" esas nekompleta e nesuficanta. En la Portugalana, exemple, on pa= rolas ne nur pri verbi transitiva e netransitiva, ma anke pri verbi "d= irete transitiva", "nedirete transitiva" e mem "bitrans= itiva". Tamen mem ica plu detaloza qualifiko esas nesuficanta por expr= esar la tre komplexa e nuancoza realajo verbala ne nur en Ido, ma anke en n= ia lingui nacional. Me propozis altraspeca expliko en mea artiklo "Pri= transitiveso en Ido" (publikigita en mea verko "Linguala babili&= quot;, 2002, qua balde, pos revizo, itere disponebleskos en la reto), ed an= ke pri la verbala realajo di Esperanto e la transitiveso di lua verbi (temo= polemikala anke en Esperantia) me skribis esayo en la verda linguo (multe = plu detaloza kam la mencionita Ido-artiklo), sub la formo di Platonala dial= ogo inter Zamenhof, L. de Beaufront, Kabe e Grabowski, qua publikigesis une= sme da Haupenthal en 2000 e duesme da UEA (en antologio) en 2015. Nek l'= ;una (la Ido-artiklo) nek l'altra (la Esperanto-esayo) produktis granda= (o mem irga) eko, segun quante me savas...

En amba verki me argumentas i.a. ke, por save= skar quale uzar certena verbo (kun o sen objekto, kun o sen prepoziciono, e= , en la kazo di Esperanto, kun o sen akuzativo), esas plu importanta, plu u= tila e mem plu decidigiva analizar la senco e la signifiko di la koncernata= verbo kam etiketizar ol kom "transitiva" o "netransitiva&qu= ot;. Yen du exempli:

1) Pri "bavar" (temo di tua antea mesajo). Olua defino che= Pesch esas yena: =C2=ABLasar fluar la salivo ek la boko=C2=BB. Se la defin= o esas korekta =E2=80= =93 e me ya opinionas ke ol esas tala =E2=80=93 do on povas facile certeskar pri l= a senco e signifiko di la verbo ed anke pri lua uzo-maniero. Se, dum bavar,= la bavanto lasas fluar sua salivo ek la boko, do la salivo quan lu lasas f= luar ek la boko certe esas bavajo, sen egardo a ke on qualifikas la verbo k= om "transitiva" o "netransitiva".

=
2) Pri "expirar" (temo di= tua jusa mesajo). Olua unesma defino che Pesh esas yena: =C2=ABEkpulsar de= la pulmoni (la areo qua uzesis por respiro)=C2=BB. Se la defino esas= korekta =E2=80=93 e me ya opinionas ke ol esas tala =E2=80=93 do on povas facile certeskar pri la sen= co e signifiko di la verbo ed anke pri lua uzo-maniero. Se, dum expirar, l= a expiranto ekpulsas de sua pulmoni la aero qua uzesis por respiro, do la u= zita aero quan lua pulmoni ekpulsas certe esas expirajo, sen egardo a ke o= n qualifikas la verbo kom "transitiva" o "netransitiva"= . Anke la du cetera defini di "expirar" esas analizebla tale, ma = me ne volas tedar mea tre poka lektanti per tro longa mesajo...

= Kordiale,

<= /font>
Gon=C3=A7alo


<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
2017-01-14 16:55= GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphm= orin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">
=C2=A0
=
Danko pro la informo.

La = problemo pri -aj- esas, ke me analizis lua defino da Dyer, e me komparis lu= a ta da la Kompleta Gramatiko, e me trovis nula difero. Ka lua uzo = reale chanjis?

Tua du idei bone explikas pro quo &= quot;aspirar" esas transitiva dum ke "expirar" esas netransi= tiva.

Itere, "expirajo" esas en Dyer.

GP

2017-01-14 6:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

<= div>Kara= Gilles-Philippe,

La reguli pri la sufixo -aj, quale t= u savas, esas expozita en KGD, sat detaloze, ed oli tote ne chanjis de lore= .

La vorto "bavajo", qua troveblas i.a. anke e= n la oficala Ido-dicionario (eroroze titulizita kom "Ido-vortaro"= ) da Hans Cornioley (1965), definita kom "salivo ekfluanta", teor= iale ya postulas ke la verbo "bavar" esez transitiva od adminime = mixita, vice "pure" netransitiva. Tamen nia vorto-libri prizentas= ol kom netransitiva, forsan pro ke: 1) Ol ordinare judikesas kom netransit= iva en nia fonto-lingui; 2) Ol esas verbo nur "un-objekta", t.e. = on ne povas bavar altro kam bavajo.

Forsan existas alt= ra opinioni od expliki plu bona.

Gon=C3=A7alo =C2=A0



2017-01-14 3:32 GMT+00:00 G= illes-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.= com>:
=C2=A0

Yen plusa problemo:

Me lektas en plura fonti, olda= or nova (Complete Manual, Dyer, Kompleta Gramatiko, Pesch), ke -aj-= kun verbo netransitiva expresas l'aganto.

<= div>Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. bavar, droo= l).

Or, me lektas omnaloke ke "bavar"= ; esas verbo netransitiva! Do on ne povas bavar ulo, ma ulo= =C2=A0bavas!

Ma me trovas tala uzo pluraloke, mem = en defini (Pesch):

spumo: 1. Quaza mos= o qua naskas surface di liquido quan onu agitas, varmigas o qua fermentacas= . 2. Bavajo mosatra qua naskas ye la boko di ula animali kand= e li esas ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI

Do, ka la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "bavar&quo= t;, fakte, esas mixita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza?
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-13 21:52= GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204= ,204)">
Kara samideani,
Quo esas la difero inter -aj- a= nte 1925 e -aj- pos 1925?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

=


Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro la bona e justa informo.<= /div>

Certe, uladie "tuberkloso" divenos *tube= rkuloso...

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-P= hilippe

2017-01-12 20:42 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yah= oogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Nia sempre agema e la= borema samideano Jean Martignon recente questionis che Facebook:

=C2=A0

=C2=ABPro quo ni havas la vorto tuberkloso ? La origi= nala vorto semblas a me esar "tuberculosis" ed en la fonto-linguo= la radiko esas "tuberkulos-". Nia mifrati Espisti havas la vorto= : tuberkulozo (konforma al pronunco). Ni povus havar sive ca vorto sive &#= 39;tuberkuloso' (konforma al etimologio) Do, pro quo existas ca vorto p= ri qua me havas l'impreso ke ol esas kripla vorto ? Forsan, nia pioniri= volis adoptar la vorto 'tuberkuloso', ma pro imprimo-eroro la vort= o mutilesis e ni havas 'tuberkloso'. Altralatere, pro quo dum la on= do de reformi, qua falis sur la Ido-movado dum la fino dil yari 1920ma, onu= ne profitis l'okaziono por igar ca vorto plu konformo a lua radiko int= ernaciona ? Me predankas pro la respondo.=C2=BB=

=C2=A0<= /font>

Yen mea respondo (anke che Facebook):

<= /span>

=C2=A0

Omna ciencala nomi =E2= =80=93 precipue, ma ne nur, nomi di morbi =E2=80=93 qui nun finas per -oso = e devenas de la Greka finalo -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82 (-=C3=B4sis), en 190= 8 finis per -ozo, t.e. oli sequis la pronunco AFGIR (ne H!) ed anke la orto= grafiala kustumo en Esperanto. Exempli: =E2=80=9Cankilozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2= =80=9Cankiloso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Cnevrozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cnevroso= =E2=80=9D), =E2=80=9Capoteozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Capoteoso=E2=80=9D), = =E2=80=9Cmetempsikozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cmetempsikoso=E2=80=9D), =E2=80= =9Cmetamorfozo=E2=80=9D (nun =E2=80=9Cmetamorfoso=E2=80=9D).<= /font>

=C2=A0

Lore (en 1908) exi= stis (ed ankore existas) la vorto =E2=80=9Ctuberkulo=E2=80=9D, qua havis (e= d ankore havas) duopla senco (botanikala ed anatomiala-fiziologiala) e de q= ua on reguloze derivis (ed ankore derivas) l=E2=80=99adjektivo =E2=80=9Ctub= erkuloza=E2=80=9D (exemple, =E2=80=9Cplanto tuberkuloza=E2=80=9D). Anke hom= o havanta tuberkulo o tuberkuli en sua korpo esis (ed ankore esas) homo tub= erkuloza o, substantivale, tuberkulozo.

= = =C2=A0

Or, en 1908 on adoptis la vorto =E2= =80=9Ctuberklozo=E2=80=9D, segun la modelo di la Angla vorto =E2=80=9Ctuber= cle=E2=80=9D (t.e. "tuberkulo"), precize por evitar miskomprenigi= va intermixo kun =E2=80=9Ctuberkul-ozo=E2=80=9D. To esis do ago intencata, = e ne eroro imprimala od altra-speca.

=C2=A0=

En 1911 on lektas en Progreso (IV, 98) yen= a noto nesignatita (do certe da Couturat ipsa):

<= span>=C2=A0

=C2=ABOn sugestas, ke esus for= san bona distingar ta du finali [t.e. olta de la Greka -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9= =CF=82, qua produktas substantivi en la ciencala feldo, ed olta de la Latin= a -osus, qua produktas adjektivi per la Ido-sufixo -oza], o ta du klasi de = vorti, por evitar erori ed intermixi=C2=BB.

=C2=A0

En 1912 (Progreso V, 103) on lektas= yena sugesto da B. J=C3=B6nsson:

=

=C2=A0

=C2=ABOportas restaurar la internaciona form= o di =E2=80=9Ctuberkloso=E2=80=9D, nome =E2=80=9Ctuberkuloso=E2=80=9D, qua = (kun -os, ne -oz) ne konfliktos kun =E2=80=9Ctuberkul-ozo=E2=80=9D=C2=BB.

=C2=A0

Regretinde nu= lu reaktis en Progreso ad ica sugesto da J=C3=B6nsson, olqua ignoresis til = nun=E2=80=A6 Dume on chanjis ad -oso la finalo -ozo di omna ciencala vorti = devenanta de la Greka finalo -=CF=89=CF=83=CE=B9=CF=82. Tamen me ne savas k= ande oficaleskis tala chanjo. Me trovas nula noto pri to en Progreso til la= finala numero di 1914 (kande la revuo interruptesis pro la milito), ma en = la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront-Couturat (1915) tala vorti ja esas restau= rita ad -oso. Do me supozas te tala decido eventis per privata korespondo i= nter la akademiani ma ne publikigesis. Regretinde on obliviis =E2=80=9Ctube= rkloso=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6

=
=

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Thu, 12 Jan 2017 18:49:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 02:49:36 +0000 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11411f5e10a23b0545f0e301 Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11411f5e10a23b0545f0e301 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu, bovo esas nek vento, nek ondo=E2=80=A6 Me eroris en mea antea mesajo. = Me intermixis Dyer 1919 e Dyer 1924 English-Ido. 1919, Dyer English-Ido mu= jar =3D venti, maro (cf. roar) tondrar =3D tondro, kanono (cf. roar) kriar = =3D "to cry (shout)" (cf. cry) bramar =3D animali (cf. roar) "to bleat" =3D= bramar (fr. bleat) 1924, Dyer English-Ido mujar =3D venti, ondi, tondro, = kanono (cf. roar) tondrar =3D "to thunder" (cf. thunder) kriar =3D homi e b= estii (cf. cry) bramar =3D animali (cf. roar) "to bleat" =3D bramar (fr. bl= eat) "to low" (bovi) =3D muj(et)ar (cf. low) Gilles-Philippe On Thu, Jan 1= 2, 2017 at 21:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoog= roups.com> wrote: > > > mujar: {ntr} (aludante vento, ondi) Produktar brui= so analoga a la klamo > matida, nesonora e longa di la animali bova. =E2=80= =93 FHI > Se, che Pesch, "mujar esas ulo analoga al klamo dil animali bova"= , > meajudike, on darfas dicar, ke l' bova animalaro mujas (ultre bramar). = > Tamen, forsan ne penvaloras uzar "mujar" (vice "bramar"), nam ni same > i= ndijus altra bestio-klami. Semblas a me, ke, se nia pioniri dezirabus > ama= so de konkreta bestio-klami, li ne neglijabus oli, e ke li preferis nur > p= lura bestio-klami aparta, ultre "bramar". Olci esas apen' dek vorti > entot= e, qui esas advere tre poka, ma omna vorti esus troa. E nun, permisez > a m= e mikra joko: kande me saveskis, ke Espisti uzas la formo "vochdoni" por > = nia "votar", me multe ridis, e pensis: "Do, en Ido, ni povus dicar, ke omna= > bestii (kun voco) vocdonas (donas voco, klamas) singla per sua voco." > = > (Partaka) > > --001a11411f5e10a23b0545f0e301 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu, bovo esas nek vento, nek ondo=E2=80=A6

Me eroris en mea antea me= sajo. Me intermixis Dyer 1919 e Dyer 1924 English-Ido.

1919, Dyer E= nglish-Ido
mujar =3D venti, maro (cf. roar)
tondrar =3D tondro, kanon= o (cf. roar)
kriar =3D "to cry (shout)" (cf. cry)
bramar = =3D animali (cf. roar)
"to bleat" =3D bramar (fr. bleat)
1924, Dyer English-Ido
mujar =3D venti, ondi, tondro, kanono (cf. roar= )
tondrar =3D "to thunder" (cf. thunder)
kriar =3D homi e b= estii (cf. cry)
bramar =3D animali (cf. roar)
"to bleat" = =3D bramar (fr. bleat)
"to low" (bovi) =3D muj(et)ar (cf. low)=

Gilles-Philippe
On = Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 21:00 quale= vistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

mujar: {ntr} (al= udante vento, ondi) Produktar bruiso analoga a la klamo matida, nesonora e = longa di la animali bova. =E2=80=93 FHI=C2=A0

Se, che Pesch, "mujar esas ulo analoga al = klamo dil animali bova", meajudike, on darfas dicar, ke l' bova an= imalaro mujas (ultre bramar). Tamen, forsan ne penvaloras uzar "mujar&= quot; (vice "bramar"), nam ni same indijus altra bestio-klami. Se= mblas a me, ke, se nia pioniri dezirabus amaso de konkreta bestio-klami, li= ne neglijabus oli, e ke li preferis nur plura bestio-klami aparta, ultre &= quot;bramar". Olci esas apen' dek vorti entote, qui esas advere tr= e poka, ma omna vorti esus troa. E nun, permisez a me mikra joko: kande me = saveskis, ke Espisti uzas la formo "vochdoni" por nia "votar= ", me multe ridis, e pensis: "Do, en Ido, ni povus dicar, ke omna= bestii (kun voco) vocdonas (donas voco, klamas) singla per sua voco."= =C2=A0

=C2=A0(Partaka)

--001a11411f5e10a23b0545f0e301-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4766 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 8738 invoked by uid 102); 13 Jan 2017 10:55:06 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m11.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 10:55:06 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 4422 invoked from network); 13 Jan 2017 10:55:06 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 2017 10:55:06 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.48 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: NE1p6GUWLDs0BF_QRza_OuAJgj59H1SfqoI70JOFRxzzmvVe dgFY0z8Jin4ehsTfSlQ9u_4EczBSuwaaaYnAXvmyibzxQvoPN6BkkdA6tZG6 g6DTHYCNiIsFZjG4rXdl1lhwhPIPY2aVEXdRSXll39gafeUfFBUnZVVEo5L1 AjOf4ALSdahOojrCLK3kdUHjqMkK6cY3DMbIRp6ZJWlc2voRKDxTTFcAHlJ9 5LFoZQQEQDyGoHwolS6sBh87YSaIB0i0TNhIswXPNCLUfobVS9DJRMy6w0n5 hdmo_IGYF.6iUQQKode0lmOxJ13dr22DcvDloFFXAELDuByyx.BpTDMmAOMa WG3V.hGVTqDIGyCfg_L6lkEqnK7_ZCMuX2kkEDsqk1PacECPKQ.QOHT4gOUW PKF96YlaZsGsu1dwUeJYiRVl36hQ2MVkoN0Nq7iyU3xtOKVbYliHwby9lHOq ZtYGkG05NChsZDPkcCUw2pKXattqIL4_gyXreU7St0UyqGSfN75kt1JpTLGy .3wxAy2ksiRZLG_JUz33X23pPjT9m3SephdoiIrywgycKBBWAj9DKZe7XW93 56IWIgyaZZsIeM0t01jhhkfxylsdJfU8jr6nP0Kqh8w8zF7ClQnsjhLxLHCZ yLf4clr7uJm61x8qzC9r1kk2geaLzwd6dygkf9LLGPR.YQIgzQTNdhBM15Ni 8aGVKiZETwFybq.NzuKl3sD1Q88tKr7LlslnLXcRH9_Zwu6aDtytLk7zPivj VwN7N0B_Mc8ap6X149maXoEIeap5ZEv_AvaCHB3UPK6uEIdIHXM.tZA4Gstn .TMSDhYb7_ZtByFvksFIUsPANyiGanKDmwY.aIBp.BImGlY0UqBZpfIh_x_u WbQjzw0gJsZGlFz655oQHOdYvWAZrTew5BqaLK5CT2VdgdKXToBGhVF2AUGN .LhW2LaZfpVkNwBstRRY.TGMpp.K5fcq.G_upsOSkCMPFGocaZwBNSdctG5t DOloKDjU0PyUIyEHmu6Duokqlh69FeCN7OgIv01awpZ3edjaWRV2WkQQt1c7 K0JZ7GOt3VQbi8.C1_kqSY0Zr0e4g_vztR6fjnGYwaBfbBKmMl2NvmtSX3fE _0KmzIKwTdGJqTBL5oqMJjDq6WS56RyVhy6j1mFRtjx7A45L9ABpK2Nk8z7y oo6SGs4pFUvOGHYXCGvBqAZpP3vPwncComdUtvcQ9jMedYaRGj7oHTWVhKHR rTJr0AswGMURxYihkAJRwFHX76D0mb.U9sJlljuOZ8U4MEzGUrCefNdhmqZE C8flj6wwO0tw0myXgYcAQJTZ.5I7qKFKVW6iwZPCazm2mnwUOMBBMIeF179Y bcD31VUOyZuwsxLmMQf8yj5X4A9WeAS4xczGpr2erFslJ5NuEO1rJqWBWI.8 CJkz_Dp.ZIT4l49faPQG_H91QyUvWAsXOX1U5keY2W7jO.yIhK2X6WOOv81H rO.KZbgFsVFv7XEhSiXQlDJdb.HkqnHowz2qUzwf7RgdpU7Voxgkbzy2mEnC InJU Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f48.google.com) (209.85.213.48) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 10:55:06 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f48.google.com with SMTP id x75so30942965vke.2 for ; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 02:55:06 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=YZ6/RuxI9D1PsolP38wsKTuo22YFxrRMe6+yIj1s6no=; b=XJcPrvPEIAiZMPhOO7cWGFCJP/a6lc1S10AYI+3rCQW14wrDCLYbbzYfX3z67aAKDh EvX4zBOLIcWDW0NKdMzyXbDya5d9gO2n3d8hefouI0H7iiqDrWo3AVaGay75tG5cSp5q CWUqQcaCfczmiFJyoMi8JXX7lPXP7YdBN5//1H2c3S6BXaeNa/Ykr92RM4PTS81GQNuZ DexEz/dqooI300dJ7quOJW/CpDNCIeSc+l8N44uNh8owP9Vll1FGcf/WO/5PYnnA9WKk 44PqElS88u4ic4Q7MG43IEfH2h/d0aL/GZvUtEMGkbNUlXnRNLQcQXjdxXrVfckTdaPz Yymg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ5wB0N+cRyz8fohLEgvsdwn8wRg/o+dm5KKHUq3pBO3LnSWvowdsHaYw79NtYC6u82s2GjkiaWF13IGQ== X-Received: by 10.31.114.133 with SMTP id n127mr9536802vkc.129.1484304521543; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 02:48:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jan 2017 02:48:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 10:48:41 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1497b4bec2ef0545f793ae Subject: Re: [linguo] Ka la bovo mujas? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=qEVbYBeJZxajf3DRlSPrBmB__jdvc4YaXkbt-x-9rzxZVJvzPV9drA X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c1497b4bec2ef0545f793ae Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe, Ube tu trovis la lexiki "International-English" ed "= English-Internationl" de 1908? Ja de multa yari me serchas li, elektronikal= e o papere, ma tote vane (same kam "Fran=C3=A7ais-International" ed "Intern= ational-Fran=C3=A7ais" de 1908, qui ne trovesas mem che Gallica ). Fortunoze me povis komprar la lexiki "International-deutsch= es" e "Deutsch-internationales", anke de 1908, kelka yari ante nun. G. = 2017-01-13 1:44 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguol= isto] : > > > Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, > Me vartez = tua artiklo. Me esperas ke tua argumenti ne fondesos sur la olda > defino d= i la (eroroza) dicionario International-English (p. 130): > > *muj-ar,* to = bellow, roar, groan (*animals*, *sea*, *waves*). [FIS] > > Nam la dicionari= o English-International kontredicas lu (204): > > to *roar* (*wind*, *sea*)= , mujar > > La vorto "bramar" ne existis, en ta epoko, e "mujar" semblas in= kluzir lua > senco, adminime segun International-English. Tamen, la > Engli= sh-International dicas ulo altra... Videz sube. > > *1908, International-En= glish* > mujar =3D *bestyi, maro, ondi (cf. *mujar*) > tondrar =3D "to thun= der" (cf. *tondrar*) > kriar =3D "to cry" (cf. *kriar*) > > *1908, English-= International* > mujar =3D maro, ondi (cf. *roar*) > tondrar =3D "to thunde= r" (cf. *thunder*) > kriar =3D "to cry" (cf. *kriar*) > "to bleat" =3D kria= r (cf. *bleat*) > > Yen plusa fonti, por demonstrar la evoluado: > > *1919,= Dyer Ido-English* > mujar =3D venti, ondi, tondro, kanono (cf. *mujar*) > = tondrar =3D "to thunder" (cf. *thunder*) > kriar =3D "to cry out" (cf. *kri= ar*) > bramar =3D omna animali; *ecepte la hundo, la foxo, la kato, la han= ulo, la > korniko, la rano, la hanino* > > *1919, Dyer English-Ido* > mujar= =3D venti, maro (cf. *roar*) > tondrar =3D tondro, kanono (cf. *roar*) > k= riar =3D "to cry (shout)" (cf. *cry*) > bramar =3D animali (cf. *roar*) > "= to bleat" =3D bramar (fr. *bleat*) > "to low" (bovi) =3D muj(et)ar (cf. *lo= w*) > > *1924, Dyer Ido-English* > mujar =3D venti, ondi, tondro, kanono (c= f. *mujar*) > tondrar =3D "to thunder" (cf. *tondrar*) > kriar =3D bestii e= homi (cf. *kriar*) > bramar =3D omna animali; *ecepte la hundo, la foxo, l= a kato, la korniko, la > rano, la hanino* (on mem definas "bramo" kom "bell= owing (of a bull); > lowing (of cows)"). > > *???, Lexiko Ido-Franca* (http= ://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm) > mujar =3D bovi, vento, ondi (cf. *mujar*) >= tondrar =3D "tonner" (cf. *tondrar*) > kriar =3D "crier" (cf. *kriar*) > b= ramar =3D animali (generale), la elefanto, la rinocero, la mutono, la asno,= > la cervo, la kavalo, la bovi, la kapreolo, la leono > > La uzo di "kriar= " por "to bleat" da la dicionario de 1908 e lua manko di > la vorto "bramar= " klare demonstras ke tala dicionarii esas nun obsoleta ed > evitenda. Do n= i ne uzez li por trovar la justa defino ed uzo di "mujar". > > Tamen, la (t= re) eroroza dicionario English-Ido da Dyer (cf. *chase*, > *chisel*, *carun= cle*, etc.) certe esos interesiva fonto por tu (cf. *low*); > anke la Lexik= o Ido-Franca, qua tamen ne havas bona reputeso pri strikteso > (cf. *aktiva= *, *pasiva*). > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > 2017-01-12 1= 8:34 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> La kazo (e = historio!) di la vorto "mujar" (same kam olta di "mu=C4=9Dar" en >> Esperan= to) esas plu komplikita kam on supozas od imaginas. Me skribos >> specala a= rtiklo pri la temo e publikigos ol en mea linguala blogo, qua >> regretinde= torporas ja de tro longa tempo. >> >> Kordiale, >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo >> >> >= > >> 2017-01-12 15:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>= [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Kara Gon=C3=A7= alo, >>> Danko pro tua respondo. Me ja lektabis tua traduko di Animal Farm.= >>> Tamen, ka tala uzo di 'mujar' ne esas neoficala? Kad on ne devas uzar = lu >>> kun steleto? >>> >>> Kun kordiala saluti, >>> Gilles-Philippe >>> On= Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 06:09 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >>> [ling= uolisto] wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >= >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> = >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >>> >>> Yen lo skribita = da me en SIL: >>> >>> Kelka-foye me >>> >>> rezolvis enduktar vorti pro haz= ardala deskovro di lexikala lakuni en Ido. >>> >>> Exemple, me konstatis ke= Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti, kande me >>> probis >>> >>> tradukar la = sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di *Animal farm* (=E2=80=9CLa >>> >>> be= stio-farmeyo=E2=80=9D) da George Orwell: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>= > =E2=80=9C >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *And then, after a few preliminary trie= s, thewhole farm burst out into >>> =E2=80=98Beasts of England=E2=80=99 in = tremendous unison. The cowslowed it, the dogs whined >>> it, the sheep blea= ted it, the horses whinnied it, theducks quacked it.*=E2=80=9D >>> >>> >>> = Yen mea >>> >>> traduk-probo: =E2=80=9C >>> >>> >>> >>> *E lore, pos poka p= robi preliminara, la tota farmeyo komenciskantar >>> =E2=80=9CBestii di Ang= lia=E2=80=9D per perfekta unisono. La bovi mujis ol, la hundiaboyis >>> ol,= la mutoni *blekis ol, la kavali *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol.*=E2= =80=9D >>> >>> Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata hike, me propozas en la lexiko an= ke le >>> sequanta: **brear* >>> >>> (asno), **honkar* (ganso), **mekar* (k= apro) e **rorar* (leono, >>> >>> tigro e altra granda felini). >>> >>> >>> = 2017-01-12 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [lin= guolisto] : >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>= > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >= >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> = >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Kara samideani, >>> Segun Pesch, Dyer e la Lexiko I= do-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di qua la >>> uzo restriktesas a 'vento', 'o= ndi', 'kanono' e 'tondro'. Or, me kelkafoye >>> vidis ta vorto uzata por bo= vi, tale quale en Esperanto. >>> >>> Ka la defino esas eroro, o kad uzar 'm= ujar' por bovi ya esas eroro? >>> >>> Kun kordiala saluti, >>> Gilles-Phili= ppe >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>= > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >= >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> = >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > --94eb2c1497b4bec2ef0545f793ae Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Ube tu trovis l= a lexiki "International-English" ed "English-Internationl&qu= ot; de 1908? Ja de multa yari me serchas li, elektronikale o papere, ma tot= e vane (same kam "Fran=C3=A7ais-International" ed "Internati= onal-Fran=C3=A7ais" de 1908, qui ne trovesas mem che Gallica). Fortunoze me povis komprar la lexiki "= International-deutsches" e "Deutsch-internationales", anke d= e 1908, kelka yari ante nun.

G.=C2=A0
=



2017-01-13 1:44 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gon=C3= =A7alo,
Me vartez tua artiklo. Me esperas ke tua argumenti ne fondesos = sur la olda defino di la (eroroza) dicionario International-English (p. 130= ):

muj-ar,=C2=A0to bellow, roar, groan (= animals, sea, waves). [FIS]

Nam = la dicionario English-International kontredicas lu (204):

to roar=C2=A0(wind, sea), mujar

=
La vorto "bramar" ne existis, en ta epoko, e "muj= ar" semblas inkluzir lua senco, adminime segun International-English. = Tamen, la English-International dicas ulo altra... Videz sube.
1908, International-English
mujar =3D *bestyi= , maro, ondi (cf. mujar)
tondrar =3D "to thunder"= ; (cf.=C2=A0tondrar)
kriar =3D "to cry" (cf. = kriar)

1908, English-International
mujar =3D maro, ondi (cf. roar)
tondrar =3D "to= thunder" (cf. thunder)
kriar =3D "to cry" = (cf. kriar)
"to bleat" =3D kriar (cf. bleat)

Yen plusa fonti, por demonstrar la evoluado:

1919, Dyer Ido-English
mujar =3D v= enti, ondi, tondro, kanono (cf. mujar)
tondrar =3D "t= o thunder" (cf. thunder)
kriar =3D "to cry out&q= uot; (cf. kriar)
bramar =3D =C2=A0omna animali;=C2=A0ec= epte la hundo, la foxo, la kato, la hanulo, la korniko, la rano, la hanino<= /i>

1919, Dyer English-Ido
mujar =3D venti, maro (cf. roar)
tondrar =3D tondro, kano= no (cf. roar)
kriar =3D "to cry (shout)" (cf. cry)
bramar =3D animali (cf. roar)
"to= bleat" =3D bramar (fr. bleat)
"to low" (bovi) =3D= muj(et)ar (cf. low)

1924, Dyer Ido-Engl= ish
mujar =3D venti, ondi, tondro, kanono (cf. mujar)<= /div>
tondrar =3D "to thunder" (cf. tondrar)
kriar =3D bestii e homi (cf. kriar)
bramar =3D omna anima= li;=C2=A0ecepte la hundo, la foxo, la kato, la korniko, la rano, la hani= no=C2=A0(on mem definas "bramo" kom "bellowing (of a bul= l); lowing (of cows)").

???, Lexiko Ido-Fr= anca=C2=A0(http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm)
mujar =3D bovi, ven= to, ondi (cf. mujar)
tondrar =3D "tonner" (cf. <= b>tondrar)
kriar =3D "crier" (cf. kriar)
bramar =3D animali (generale), la elefanto, la rinocero, la mutono, = la asno, la cervo, la kavalo, la bovi, la kapreolo, la leono

=
La uzo di "kriar" por "to bleat" da la dicio= nario de 1908 e lua manko di la vorto "bramar" klare demonstras k= e tala dicionarii esas nun obsoleta ed evitenda. Do ni ne uzez li por trova= r la justa defino ed uzo di "mujar".

Tam= en, la (tre) eroroza dicionario English-Ido da Dyer (cf. chase, c= hisel, caruncle, etc.) certe esos interesiva fonto por tu (cf. <= b>low); anke la Lexiko Ido-Franca, qua tamen ne havas bona reputeso pri= strikteso (cf. aktiva, pasiva).

Kun= kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


2017-01-12 18:34 GMT-= 05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gilles-Philippe,

La kazo (e historio!) di la vorto "mujar" (same kam olt= a di "mu=C4=9Dar" en Esperanto) esas plu komplikita kam on supoza= s od imaginas. Me skribos specala artiklo pri la temo e publikigos ol en me= a linguala blogo, qua regretinde torporas ja de tro longa tempo.

Kordiale,
<= div>
= Gon=C3=A7alo=C2=A0
<= div>
=

2017-01-12 15:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
Danko pro tua respondo. Me ja lektabis tua traduko = di Animal Farm. Tamen, ka tala uzo di 'mujar' ne esas neoficala? Ka= d on ne devas uzar lu kun steleto?

Kun kordiala sa= luti,
Gilles-Philippe
On Thu, Jan 12, = 2017 at 06:09 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= wrote:





























= =C2=A0











=





<= br>

Kara Gilles-Philippe= ,

Yen lo skribita da me en SIL:

Kelka-foye me

rezo= lvis enduktar vorti pro hazardala deskovro di lexikala lakuni en Ido.
Exemple, me konstatis ke Ido indijas ordinara bramo-vorti, kande me probi= s

tradukar la sequanta texto del unesma chapitro di Animal farm (=E2=80=9CLa

bestio-farmeyo=E2= =80=9D) da George Orwell:



=C2=A0





=E2=80=9CAnd t= hen, after a few preliminary tries, the

whole farm burst out into = =E2=80=98Beasts of England=E2=80=99 in tremendous unison. The cows

l= owed it, the dogs whined it, the sheep bleated it, the horses whinnied it, = the

ducks quacked it.=E2=80=9D


Yen mea=

traduk-probo: =E2=80=9CE lore= , pos poka probi preliminara, la tota farmeyo komencis

kantar =E2=80= =9CBestii di Anglia=E2=80=9D per perfekta unisono. La bovi mujis ol, la hundi

aboyis ol, la mutoni *b= lekis ol, la kavali *hinis ol, l=E2=80=99anadi *quakis ol.=E2=80=9D
=
Ultre la bramo-vorti uzata hike, me propozas en la lexiko anke le sequa= nta: *brear

(asno), *honkar (ganso), *mekar (kapro) e = *rorar (leono,

tigro e altra granda felini).


2017-01-12= 3:21 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:













=















<= span class=3D"m_742489618043313453gmail-m_-1920876694986411207m_80737826657= 40602399m_7410241723689079470gmail_msg">=C2=A0












<= br>



= Kara samideani,

Segun Pesch, Dye= r e la Lexiko Ido-Franca, 'mujar' esas verbo, di qua la uzo restrik= tesas a 'vento', 'ondi', 'kanono' e 'tondro'= ;. Or, me kelkafoye vidis ta vorto uzata por bovi, tale quale en Esperanto.= =C2=A0

Ka la defino = esas eroro, o kad uzar 'mujar' por bovi ya esas eroro?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe




















=

















<= br>















<= /div>


























=


=
=

=

To semblas tote racionala, danko pro la informo!

<= /div>
Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-14 20:54 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7= alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [lin= guolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

=
La pro= blemo venas anke de ke la qualifiki "transitiva" e "netransi= tiva" esas nekompleta e nesuficanta. En la Portugalana, exemple, on pa= rolas ne nur pri verbi transitiva e netransitiva, ma anke pri verbi "d= irete transitiva", "nedirete transitiva" e mem "bitrans= itiva". Tamen mem ica plu detaloza qualifiko esas nesuficanta por expr= esar la tre komplexa e nuancoza realajo verbala ne nur en Ido, ma anke en n= ia lingui nacional. Me propozis altraspeca expliko en mea artiklo "Pri= transitiveso en Ido" (publikigita en mea verko "Linguala babili&= quot;, 2002, qua balde, pos revizo, itere disponebleskos en la reto), ed an= ke pri la verbala realajo di Esperanto e la transitiveso di lua verbi (temo= polemikala anke en Esperantia) me skribis esayo en la verda linguo (multe = plu detaloza kam la mencionita Ido-artiklo), sub la formo di Platonala dial= ogo inter Zamenhof, L. de Beaufront, Kabe e Grabowski, qua publikigesis une= sme da Haupenthal en 2000 e duesme da UEA (en antologio) en 2015. Nek l'= ;una (la Ido-artiklo) nek l'altra (la Esperanto-esayo) produktis granda= (o mem irga) eko, segun quante me savas...

En amba verki me argumentas i.a. ke, por save= skar quale uzar certena verbo (kun o sen objekto, kun o sen prepoziciono, e= , en la kazo di Esperanto, kun o sen akuzativo), esas plu importanta, plu u= tila e mem plu decidigiva analizar la senco e la signifiko di la koncernata= verbo kam etiketizar ol kom "transitiva" o "netransitiva&qu= ot;. Yen du exempli:

1) Pri "bavar" (temo di tua antea mesajo). Olua defino che= Pesch esas yena: =C2=ABLasar fluar la salivo ek la boko=C2=BB. Se la defin= o esas korekta =E2=80=93 e me y= a opinionas ke ol esas tala =E2=80=93= do on povas facile certeskar pri la senco e signifiko di la verbo ed= anke pri lua uzo-maniero. Se, dum bavar, la bavanto lasas fluar sua salivo= ek la boko, do la salivo quan lu lasas fluar ek la boko certe esas bavajo,= sen egardo a ke on qualifikas la verbo kom "transitiva" o "= netransitiva".

2) Pri "expirar" (temo di tua jusa mesajo). Olua unesma def= ino che Pesh esas yena: =C2=ABEkpulsar de la pulmoni (la areo qua uzesis po= r respiro)=C2=BB. Se la defino esas korekta =E2=80=93 e me ya opiinionas ke ol esas tala =E2=80=93 do on povas facile certeskar pri= la senco e signifiko di la verbo ed anke pri lua uzo-maniero. Se, dum exp= irar, la expiranto ekpulsas de sua pulmoni la aero qua uzesis por respiro, = do la uzita aero quan lua pulmoni ekpulsas certe esas expirajo, sen egardo = a ke on qualifikas la verbo kom "transitiva" o "netransitiv= a". Anke la du cetera defini di "expirar" esas analizebla ta= le, ma me ne volas tedar mea tre poka lektanti per tro longa mesajo...
<= br>
Kordiale,

<= /span>
Gon=C3=A7alo
=


2017-01-14 16:55 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguol= isto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
 =
=C2=A0
Danko pro la informo.

La = problemo pri -aj- esas, ke me analizis lua defino da Dyer, e me komparis lu= a ta da la Kompleta Gramatiko, e me trovis nula difero. Ka lua uzo = reale chanjis?

Tua du idei bone explikas pro quo &= quot;aspirar" esas transitiva dum ke "expirar" esas netransi= tiva.

Itere, "expirajo" esas en Dyer.

GP

2017-01-14 6:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Kara Gilles-P= hilippe,

La reguli pri la sufixo -aj, quale tu savas, es= as expozita en KGD, sat detaloze, ed oli tote ne chanjis de lore.

La vorto "bavajo", qua troveblas i.a. anke en la ofical= a Ido-dicionario (eroroze titulizita kom "Ido-vortaro") da Hans C= ornioley (1965), definita kom "salivo ekfluanta", teoriale ya pos= tulas ke la verbo "bavar" esez transitiva od adminime mixita, vic= e "pure" netransitiva. Tamen nia vorto-libri prizentas ol kom net= ransitiva, forsan pro ke: 1) Ol ordinare judikesas kom netransitiva en nia = fonto-lingui; 2) Ol esas verbo nur "un-objekta", t.e. on ne povas= bavar altro kam bavajo.

Forsan existas altra opinioni o= d expliki plu bona.

Gon=C3=A7alo =C2=A0


<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
2017-01-14 3:32 GM= T+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Yen plusa problemo:

Me lektas en plura fonti, o= lda or nova (Complete Manual, Dyer, Kompleta Gramatiko, Pesch), ke -aj-<= /b> kun verbo netransitiva expresas l'aganto.

Tamen, me trovis "bavajo" che Dyer (cf. bavar, d= rool).

Or, me lektas omnaloke ke "bavar&q= uot; esas verbo netransitiva! Do on ne povas bavar ulo, ma ulo=C2=A0bavas!

Ma me trovas tala uzo pluraloke, mem= en defini (Pesch):

spumo: 1. Quaza mo= so qua naskas surface di liquido quan onu agitas, varmigas o qua fermentaca= s. 2. Bavajo mosatra qua naskas ye la boko di ula animali kan= de li esas ecitita od iritita. =E2=80=93 AFHI

Do, ka la netransitiveso di "bavar" esas eroro e "bavar&qu= ot;, fakte, esas mixita? O ka la reguli pri -aj- esas eroroza?
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-13 21:5= 2 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
=
Kara samideani,
Quo esas la difero inter -aj- = ante 1925 e -aj- pos 1925?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

<= /div>




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Tu esas= tre fortunoza posedar la Enkhiridion... Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vener-al= -a": http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm Danko pro dissavigar tua vidpunto. = Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gma= il.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > La vorti "atik-= ismo" ed "atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko > *Atika, necesa i.a.= por expresar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo > ", quan altre on apene povus > expresar komode. La vorti "a= tiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same kam > "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kanono" (= militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en omna > lingui. En Ido oli existas minime= , e le existanta apene povas produktar > konflikti, segun mea experienco. >= > Existas plusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la >= vorto "venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua >= intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, = segun > mea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko "vener/"= , de qua > on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika", anke trovebla che Dyer= . En la > verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. = Pearson e > L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis = la vorto > "veneraji" (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB... > = > Meaopinione, "metodisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem > prizenti= nda) kom reguloza derivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne > expozis ta= la derivo, forsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo > da nia fo= nto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, la du koncepti esas expresata per > du apart= a vorti), forsan mem pro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas > nula de= rivala difero inter la trio "turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio > "metodo/meto= disto/metodismo"... > > 2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> = Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e >> "ati= k-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? >> >> E "metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" = ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne? >> >> GP >> >> 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:0= 0 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] >> : >> >>> >>> >>> O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e= .a.) existas kom >>> "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *milita= r/ en SIL: >>> >>> **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A *military* | F *militaire= * | G *Milit=C3=A4r-*, >>> *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *militar* | I *militare* = | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E *militista*]. >>> **mili= tarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare (exemple, per sendar >>> soldati, = docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.c.): **militarigar >>>= lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* Politikala sistemo en qua >>> prepon= deras la *militara povo. *2* Tendenco a fortigar armeo e solvar >>> konflik= ti (precipue internaciona) per milito. **militaristo.* Adepto di >>> ta sis= temo o tendenco. *Rem.* *militarism/* cesez existar kom aparta >>> radiko. = Fonti: Dyer prizentas *militaristo* e *militarigar* kom >>> derivaji de *mi= litarismo*, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di *militar/* >>= > kom aparta radiko; Stuifbergen (*Progreso* 338, p. 10: ****militara >>> z= ono*). >>> >>> >>> 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin= @gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>>> >>>> >= >>> Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", >>>= > "antimilitar-ismo", e.c. >>>> >>>> Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por = simpligar la lektado. >>>> >>>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Nev= es gneves64@gmail.com >>>> [linguolisto] : >>>= > >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > > --f403045ebc7a69c7f0054619a2a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la hodia / cadia / icadia / nunadi= a mesaji! Tu esas tre fortunoza posedar la=C2=A0Enkhiridion...

Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vener-al-a":=C2=A0http://idolinguo.org.u= k/idfr.htm

Danko pro dissavigar tua vidpunto.<= /div>

Gilles-Philippe
2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves = gneves64@gmail.com<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

= La vorti "atik-ismo&= quot; ed "atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko *Atika, nec= esa i.a. por expresar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo", quan alt= re on apene povus expresar komode. La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esa= s homonima, same kam "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kanono" (m= ilitala) i.a. Homonimi existas en omna lingui. En Ido oli existas minime, e= le existanta apene povas produktar konflikti, segun mea experienco.
Existas plusa &quo= t;latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la vorto "= venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua inti= ma=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prize= nto, segun mea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" ra= diko "vener/", de qua on povas derivar "veneriko" e &qu= ot;venerika", anke trovebla che Dyer. En la verko "Enkhiridion o = manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. Pearson e L. Couturat (190= 9), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto "veneraji"= ; (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB...

<= /span>
Meaopinione, "metodisto" e= "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem prizentinda) kom reguloza de= rivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne expozis tala derivo, f= orsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo da nia fonto-lingui (en= qui, senecepte, la du koncepti esas expresata per du aparta vorti), forsan= mem pro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas nula derivala difero inte= r la trio "turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio "metodo/metodisto= /metodismo"...

2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+0= 0:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
=C2=A0

Nu, me deskonkordas. Segu= n ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e "atik-isto" = nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne?

E "metod-i= smo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne?

GP

2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguol= isto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

O forsan Dy= er intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas kom "latent= a" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ en SIL:

*militar/a. Militistala [A= military | F m= ilitaire | G Milit= =C3=A4r-, milit=C3=A4risch | H<= /span> militar | I= militare | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E militista]<= span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman",serif" lang=3D"SV">. = *mi= litarigar. Organizar o preparar *militare (exemple, per sendar soldati,= docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.c.): *militarigar = lando, regiono. *militarismo 1 Politikala sistemo = en qua preponderas la *militara povo. 2 Tendenco a fortigar armeo e = solvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. *militaristo. A= depto di ta sistemo o tendenco. Rem. <= i>militarism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiko. Fonti:< Dyer prizentas militaristo e militarigar kom derivaji de militarismo, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Clat= enta=E2=80=9D existo di militar/ kom aparta radiko; Stuifbergen (Progreso 338, p.=C2=A010: = *militara z= ono).



2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
=
=C2=A0 =

Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "milita= r-ismo", "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.

Fo= rsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado.
=

2017-01-11 12:19 = GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com>:


<= /p>


=


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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=kqlxDdjqKmFUYFbneYc-XaD5ovJbroJm-WVZxXP_C3G5O63rWeq5LA X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c18fe0c28971b0546210733 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe, La temo pri "retro" esas kelke komplexa (quankam min= komplexa kam olta pri "mujar), do me preferas respondizar tua questiono (a= dvere, tua questioni!) per aparta artiklo balde publikigota en mea linguala= blogo. Ica artiklo publikigesos ante olta pri "mujar" (di qua la temo post= ulas plu longa exploro). Kordiale, Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-14 19:49 GMT+= 00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Kara samideani, > Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikiv= ortaro: > https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/retro > > Lu deskriptas "retro" qu= ale vorto e "retroe" kom sua derivajo. > > Me anke trovis "retr-o" che Dye= r (cf. *retro*) e "retroe" (cf. > *backwards*): > > *retr-o:* (*adv.*) back= wards. =E2=80=94 L > > *backward(s):* dope, retro-e; (*with movements*) ad-= dope; kontre-sinsa; > [e.c.] > > Or, la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro= " esas olima imprimeroro: > > "Retroe (komp. *troe*) trovesas en 'Dictionna= ire Francais-Ido', p. 463: > *reculons* (*=C3=A0*), retroe, e 2 linei plu s= upre on devas lektar anke > *retroe* por 'en reculant', vice *retro qua esa= s imprimeroro*." > > Pluse, la "retr-o" di Dyer certe esas eroro nam on ne = povas derivar > adverbo de adverbo... > > Do, me havas kelka questioni. > >= (1) Ka "retro" kom vorto existas ed esas oficala? > (2) Ka "retroe" esas q= uale "ankore", "anke", e.c., t.e. adverbi sen radiko? > (3) Se (2) esas ver= a, pro quo certena dicionarii skribas *retro-e* dum ke > li skribas *ankore= *, *anke*, e.c.? > (4) Pro quo la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" esas = *prepoziciono*? > > 100. =E2=80=94 La *prepozicioni* formacas derivaji (per= -a, -e, -o) se la > signifiko lo permisas (25). Ex.: avana, avane, avano; = dopa, dope, dopo > (26); apuda, apude; cisa, cise; transa, transe; fora, fo= re; proxima, > proxime; suba, sube; sura, sure; supera, supere; extera, ext= ere; dume; > antea, antee; kontrea, kontree; *retroa*, *retroe*, e.c. > > (= 5) Se "retro" esas ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? "On arestis la homo >= pro ke lu vehis retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on povus dicar "On arestis la= > homo pro ke lu retrovehis la cirkulado." ??? > (6) Ka "retroe" expresas = direciono o movo? Nam Dyer sugestas "saltar > ad-avane" e "saltar retro" du= m ke Pesch skribas "ad-retroe" (cf. > *repulsar*)! > > Perplexe questionant= e, > Gilles-Philippe > > > --94eb2c18fe0c28971b0546210733 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Kara Gilles-Philippe,
=
La temo pri "retro" esas kelke komplexa (quankam min komplexa= kam olta pri "mujar), do me preferas respondizar tua questiono (adver= e, tua questioni!) per aparta artiklo balde publikigota en mea linguala blo= go. Ica artiklo publikigesos ante olta pri "mujar" (di qua la tem= o postulas plu longa exploro).

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo

=



2017-01-14 19:49 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <l= inguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara sa= mideani,
Me trovis la yena pagino en Wikivortaro:

Lu deskriptas "= ;retro" quale vorto e "retroe" kom sua derivajo.
<= br>
Me anke trovis "retr-o" =C2=A0che Dyer (cf. retr= o) e "retroe" (cf. backwards):

retr-o: (adv.) backwards. =E2=80=94 L

backward(s): dope, retro-e; (with movements) ad-dope;= kontre-sinsa; =C2=A0[e.c.]

Or, la Kompleta Gr= amatiko dicas ke "retro" esas olima imprimeroro:

"Retroe (komp. troe) trovesas en 'Dictionnair= e Francais-Ido', p. 463: reculons (=C3=A0), retroe, e 2 l= inei plu supre on devas lektar anke retroe por 'en reculant'= , vice retro qua esas imprimeroro."

=
Pluse, la "retr-o" di Dyer certe esas eroro nam on ne = povas derivar adverbo de adverbo...

Do, me havas k= elka questioni.

(1) Ka "retro" kom vorto= existas ed esas oficala?
(2) Ka "retroe" esas quale &q= uot;ankore", "anke", e.c., t.e. adverbi sen radiko?
(3) Se (2) esas vera, pro quo certena dicionarii skribas retro-e d= um ke li skribas=C2=A0ankore, anke, e.c.?
(4) Pro q= uo la Kompleta Gramatiko dicas ke "retro" esas prepoziciono?

100. =E2=80=94 La prepozicioni form= acas derivaji (per -a, -e, -o) se la signifiko lo permisas (25). Ex.: avana= , avane, avano; dopa, dope, dopo (26); apuda, apude; cisa, cise; transa, tr= anse; fora, fore; proxima, proxime; suba, sube; sura, sure; supera, supere;= extera, extere; dume; antea, antee; kontrea, kontree; retroa, re= troe, e.c.

(5) Se "retro" esas= ya prepoziciono, quale on uzez lu? "On arestis la homo pro ke lu vehi= s retro la cirkulado." Ma tale on povus dicar "On arestis la homo= pro ke lu retrovehis la cirkulado." ???
(6) Ka "retroe= " expresas direciono o movo? Nam Dyer sugestas "saltar ad-avane&q= uot; e "saltar retro" dum ke Pesch skribas "ad-retroe" = (cf. repulsar)!

Perplexe questionante,
Gilles-Philippe


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LEEPIN, libristo, BASEL, Suiso, Klybeckstr. = 23. [Lore, en 1909, on ya uzis la vorto-formo "Suiso" vice la nuna "Suisia"= ] Regretinde la verko esas en arkaika Ido (uzata ante la importanta modifi= ki adoptita en 1911), do on lektas ibe "malquietijos", "malforta" e multa t= ala stranja vorti ed expresuri... Me povas *skanar la verko, se ol interesa= s nia samideani. Tamen esus preferinda transskribar ol ad Ido moderna, nam = tala stranjaji kelke jenas la lektado... Kordiale, Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-= 15 3:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la hodia / cadi= a / icadia / nunadia mesaji! Tu esas tre > fortunoza posedar la Enkhiridion= ... > > Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vener-al-a": http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.= htm > > Danko pro dissavigar tua vidpunto. > > Gilles-Philippe > > 2017-01-= 14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> >> La vorti "atik-ismo" ed "atik-isto"= subkomprenigas la latenta radiko >> *Atika, necesa i.a. por expresar la ko= ncepto "Atika Greka linguo >> ",= quan altre on apene povus >> expresar komode. La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika e= sas homonima, same kam >> "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kanono" (militala) i.a. H= omonimi existas en omna >> lingui. En Ido oli existas minime, e le existant= a apene povas produktar >> konflikti, segun mea experienco. >> >> Existas p= lusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la >> vorto "ven= erala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua >> intima=C2= =BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, segun >> m= ea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko "vener/", de qua = >> on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika", anke trovebla che Dyer. En la = >> verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. Pearson= e >> L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis la vor= to >> "veneraji" (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB... >> >> M= eaopinione, "metodisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem >> prizentind= a) kom reguloza derivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne >> expozis tal= a derivo, forsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo >> da nia fo= nto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, la du koncepti esas expresata per >> du apar= ta vorti), forsan mem pro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas >> nula = derivala difero inter la trio "turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio >> "metodo/m= etodisto/metodismo"... >> >> 2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>= > >>> >>> Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo"= e >>> "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? >>> >>> E "metod-ismo" e = "metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne? >>> >>> GP >>> >>> 2017-01= -14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gnneves64@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] = : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> O forsan Dyer intencis mo= ntrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas kom >>>> "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen = lo skribita pri *militar/ en SIL: >>>> >>>> **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A = *military* | F *militaire* | G >>>> *Milit=C3=A4r-*, *milit=C3=A4risch* | H= *militar* | I *militare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | = E >>>> *militista*]. **militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare (exempl= e, >>>> per sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di arm= eo, >>>> e.c.): **militarigar lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* Politik= ala >>>> sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. *2* Tendenco a forti= gar >>>> armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. * >>>= > *militaristo.* Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.* *militarism/* >>>>= cesez existar kom aparta radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas *militaristo* e >>>= > *militarigar* kom derivaji de *militarismo*, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Claten= ta=E2=80=9D >>>> existo di *militar/* kom aparta radiko; Stuifbergen (*Prog= reso* 338, >>>> p. 10: ****militara zono*). >>>> >>>> >>>> 2017-01-14 1:41 = GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>>> [linguolisto] : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nu, to esas justa. Me trov= is altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", >>>>> "antimilitar-ismo", e.c. >>= >>> >>>>> Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado. >>>>>= >>>>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >>>= >> [linguolisto] : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>= > >> > > --94eb2c092d387f85680546214ece Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, Gilles-Philippe,= me posedas papera exemplero di "Enkhiridion", komprita multa yar= i ante nun, me ne plus memoras ube o quale, e havanta, sur la avana kovrilo= , yena stampuro: A. LEEPIN, libristo, BASEL, Suiso, Klybeckstr. 23. [Lore, = en 1909, on ya uzis la vorto-formo "Suiso" vice la nuna "Sui= sia"]

Reg= retinde la verko esas en arkaika Ido (uzata ante la importanta modifiki ado= ptita en 1911), do on lektas ibe "malquietijos", "malforta&q= uot; e multa tala stranja vorti ed expresuri... Me povas *skanar la verko, = se ol interesas nia samideani. Tamen esus preferinda transskribar ol ad Ido= moderna, nam tala stranjaji kelke jenas la lektado...

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo

2017-01-15 3:26 GMT+00:0= 0 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmai= l.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= div style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> =C2=A0

Gon= =C3=A7alo, danko pro la hodia / cadia / icadia / nunadia mesaji! Tu esas tr= e fortunoza posedar la=C2=A0Enkhiridion...

Ta lexiko ank= e kontenas "vener-al-a":=C2=A0http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm
=

Danko pro dissavigar tua vidpunto.

=
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2= =A0
=

La vorti "atik-ismo" ed "atik-isto" subkompreniga= s la latenta radiko *Atika, necesa i.a. por expresar la koncepto "Atika G= reka linguo", quan altre on apene povus expresar komode. La vorti = "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same kam "kanono" (ekl= eziala) e "kanono" (militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en omna lingu= i. En Ido oli existas minime, e le existanta apene povas produktar konflikt= i, segun mea experienco.

Existas plusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pe= sch tu trovos la vorto "venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncern= as la relati inter-sexua intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "v= ener-ala", ed olca prizento, segun mea interpreto, supozigas la existo= di la "latenta" radiko "vener/", de qua on povas deriv= ar "veneriko" e "venerika", anke trovebla che Dyer. En = la verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukita da C. = S. Pearson e L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis= la vorto "veneraji" (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2= =BB...

Meaopin= ione, "metodisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem= prizentinda) kom reguloza derivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmot= ive ne expozis tala derivo, forsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta i= nfluo da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, la du koncepti esas expresata= per du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vi= das nula derivala difero inter la trio "turo/turisto/turismo" e l= a trio "metodo/metodisto/metodismo"...

2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= span dir=3D"ltr"><linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2= =A0
=

Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer= ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e "atik-isto" nam "atiko= " konfliktus, ka ne?

E "metod-ismo" e &qu= ot;metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne?

GP

2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0 =

O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas= kom "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ en = SIL:

*militar/a. Militist= ala [A military | F= militaire | G Milit=C3=A4r-, milit=C3=A4risch | H militar | I militare | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E milit= ista]. *militarigar. Organizar o preparar *militare (exemple, pe= r sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.c.):= *militarigar lando, regiono. *militarismo 1 Po= litikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. 2 Tendenco a = fortigar armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. *m= ilitaristo. Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. Rem. militarism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas militaristo e = militarigar kom derivaji de militarismo, quo supoz= igas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di militar/ kom aparta = radiko; Stuifbergen (Progreso 338, = p.=C2=A010: *militara zono).



2017-= 01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0
=

Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra ta= la vorti quala "militar-ismo", "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.=

Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la= lektado.

2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= span dir=3D"ltr"><linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

<= /blockquote>

<= /div>

=
=



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Se tu skanus* lu, interesus me transskribar e modernigar lu. On Sun, J= an 15, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]= wrote: > > > Yes, Gilles-Philippe, me posed= as papera exemplero di "Enkhiridion", > komprita multa yari ante nun, me ne= plus memoras ube o quale, e havanta, > sur la avana kovrilo, yena stampuro= : A. LEEPIN, libristo, BASEL, Suiso, > Klybeckstr. 23. [Lore, en 1909, on y= a uzis la vorto-formo "Suiso" vice la > nuna "Suisia"] > > Regretinde la ve= rko esas en arkaika Ido (uzata ante la importanta modifiki > adoptita en 19= 11), do on lektas ibe "malquietijos", "malforta" e multa tala > stranja vor= ti ed expresuri... Me povas *skanar la verko, se ol interesas > nia samidea= ni. Tamen esus preferinda transskribar ol ad Ido moderna, nam > tala stranj= aji kelke jenas la lektado... > > Kordiale, > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > 2017-01-15= 3:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la hodia / = cadia / icadia / nunadia mesaji! Tu esas >> tre fortunoza posedar la Enkhir= idion... >> >> Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vener-al-a": http://idolinguo.org.u= k/idfr.htm >> >> Danko pro dissavigar tua vidpunto. >> >> Gilles-Philippe >= > >> 2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [l= inguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> La vorti "atik-is= mo" ed "atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko >>> *Atika, necesa i.a.= por expresar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo >>> ", quan altre on apene povus >>> expresar komode. La vort= i "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same kam >>> "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kan= ono" (militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en omna >>> lingui. En Ido oli exista= s minime, e le existanta apene povas produktar >>> konflikti, segun mea exp= erienco. >>> >>> Existas plusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch = tu trovos la >>> vorto "venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la rela= ti inter-sexua >>> intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", = ed olca prizento, segun >>> mea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "late= nta" radiko "vener/", de qua >>> on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika", = anke trovebla che Dyer. En la >>> verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epikte= to", tradukita da C. S. Pearson e >>> L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cadie = / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto >>> "veneraji" (p. 16), glosizita kom = =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB... >>> >>> Meaopinione, "metodisto" e "metodismo" = esas prizentebla (o mem >>> prizentinda) kom reguloza derivaji de "metodo".= Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne >>> expozis tala derivo, forsan pro manko di kustum= o, forsan pro forta influo >>> da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, la d= u koncepti esas expresata per >>> du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro manko di= novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas >>> nula derivala difero inter la trio "tu= ro/turisto/turismo" e la trio >>> "metodo/metodisto/metodismo"... >>> >>> 2= 017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [lin= guolisto] : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nu, me deskonko= rdas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e >>>> "atik-isto" nam "= atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? >>>> >>>> E "metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus e= n aparta paragrafo, ka ne? >>>> >>>> GP >>>> >>>> 2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00= Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >>>> [linguolisto] : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "mil= itar/" (e.a.) existas kom >>>>> "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita = pri *militar/ en SIL: >>>>> >>>>> **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A *military*= | F *militaire* | G >>>>> *Milit=C3=A4r-*, *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *militar= * | I *militare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E >>>>> *= militista*]. **militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare >>>>> (exemple,= per sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di >>>>> arme= o, e.c.): **militarigar lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* >>>>> Politik= ala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. *2* Tendenco >>>>> a fort= igar armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. * >>>>> *= militaristo.* Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.* *militarism/* >>>>> c= esez existar kom aparta radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas *militaristo* >>>>> e= *militarigar* kom derivaji de *militarismo*, quo supozigas >>>>> =E2=80=9C= latenta=E2=80=9D existo di *militar/* kom aparta radiko; Stuifbergen ( >>>>= > *Progreso* 338, p. 10: ****militara zono*). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2017-01-14 = 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>>>> [linguolisto]= : >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Nu, to esas just= a. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", >>>>>> "antimilitar-ism= o", e.c. >>>>>> >>>>>> Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la l= ektado. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves6= 4@gmail.com >>>>>> [linguolisto] : >>>>>> >>>>= >>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > > --001a11411f5eeff1a80546225bf1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu! Se tu skanus* lu, interesus me transskribar e modernig= ar lu.

On Su= n, Jan 15, 2017 at 7:35 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yaho= ogroups.com> wrote:
<= /u>
=C2=A0

Yes, Gilles-Philippe, me posedas papera exemplero di = "Enkhiridion", komprita multa yari ante nun, me ne plus memoras u= be o quale, e havanta, sur la avana kovrilo, yena stampuro: A. LEEPIN, libr= isto, BASEL, Suiso, Klybeckstr. 23. [Lore, en 1909, on ya uzis la vorto-for= mo "Suiso" vice la nuna "Suisia"]

=
Regretinde la verko esas en arkaika= Ido (uzata ante la importanta modifiki adoptita en 1911), do on lektas ibe= "malquietijos", "malforta" e multa tala stranja vorti = ed expresuri... Me povas *skanar la verko, se ol interesas nia samideani. T= amen esus preferinda transskribar ol ad Ido moderna, nam tala stranjaji kel= ke jenas la lektado...

Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo

2017-01-15 3:26 GMT+00:00 Gille= s-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com<= /a>>:
=C2=A0
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la hodia / cadia = / icadia / nunadia mesaji! Tu esas tre fortunoza posedar la=C2=A0Enkhiridio= n...

Ta lexiko anke kontenas "vener-al-a":=C2= =A0http://id= olinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm

Danko pro dissavi= gar tua vidpunto.

Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 = Gon=C3=A7alo Neves = gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.co= m>:
=C2=A0

=
La vorti "atik-ismo" ed "ati= k-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko *Atika, necesa i.a. por expre= sar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo", quan altre on apene povus = expresar komode. La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same k= am "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kanono" (militala) i.a. Homo= nimi existas en omna lingui. En Ido oli existas minime, e le existanta apen= e povas produktar konflikti, segun mea experienco.

Existas plusa "latenta" ra= diki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la vorto "venerala", de= finita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua intima=C2=BB, ma che D= yer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, segun mea int= erpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko "vener/&= quot;, de qua on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika",= anke trovebla che Dyer. En la verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epik= teto", tradukita da C. S. Pearson e L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cad= ie / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto "veneraji" (p. 16), glosizi= ta kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB...

Meaopinione, "metodisto" e "metodismo&q= uot; esas prizentebla (o mem prizentinda) kom reguloza derivaji de "me= todo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne expozis tala derivo, forsan pro manko di= kustumo, forsan pro forta influo da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, l= a du koncepti esas expresata per du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro manko di = novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas nula derivala difero inter la trio "tu= ro/turisto/turismo" e la trio "metodo/metodisto/metodismo"..= .

2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philip= pe Morin gphmorin@g= mail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com><= /span>:
=C2=A0

Nu, me deskonkordas. Seg= un ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e "atik-isto"= nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne?

E "metod-= ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne?

GP

2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguo= listo] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) ex= istas kom "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar= / en SIL:

*militar/a. Mil= itistala [A military | F militaire | G Milit=C3=A4r-, milit=C3=A4risch | H militar | I militare | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9<= /span> | E m= ilitista]. *militarigar. Organizar o preparar *militare (exemple= , per sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.= c.): *militarigar lando, regiono. *militarismo 1 Politikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. 2 Tendenc= o a fortigar armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. *= militaristo. Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. Rem. militarism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas militaristo = e militarigar kom derivaji de militarismo, quo = supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di militar/ kom ap= arta radiko; Stuifbergen (Progreso 33= 8, p.=C2=A010: *militara zono).



2017= -01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Moorin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <l= inguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0
=

Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti= quala "militar-ismo", "antimilitar-ismo", e.c.

Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar la lektado= .

2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


<= /span>


=

=
<= br>



2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Rob= ert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_4867480194724821567ygrp-text">

Kara Gill= es-Philippe,

Vu skribis:
Per vua exempli, me = deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en c= irkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "= swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la fi= lo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko= , interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua = direciono.

 Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di &qu= ot;swichar". (Parenteze, LNV falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o= ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco di "swichar" mustas esar (quale= la Angla vorto "switch"): startar o haltigar kurento por funcion= igar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento.

= La defino di "acendar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per ig= ar (lu) produktar flami, mem nur mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exe= mplo metaf.: "to inflame (the passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dye= r anke dicas ke acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas utensilo por ac= endar exemple sigaro.

Extensar la senco di "acendar" por= inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus "acendilo" e "swic= hilo". Normale uzo di swichilo nur komencas o cesas funciono di aparat= o elektrala, ma en mala kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro forta, povas ya ace= ndar la aparato e komencar fairo.

On ne uzas swichilo por acendar = sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas hav= as altra opiniono. Mea punto precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsen= tas, e ke ULI mustas solvar la problemo.

Kordiale,
Robert C.
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:1= 5 -0500:

Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch = on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" ed &q= uot;extingar".
"Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas ext= ingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!"

L= a originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozi= s la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga ap= arati elektrala, ka ne?
"Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo = eventis. Me acendez la televiziono."

Ma forsan vu ne komprena= s mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me konsideras la situeso = tote absurda.

La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca p= er du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo).
Nu= , me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, pos = serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch.
Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selektu= s "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" e min log= ikoza kam "interruptilo"?

Per vua exempli, me deduktas k= e vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito el= ektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar&qu= ot;, t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto&qu= ot;. Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interrup= tar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.=

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto= ] <ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


Kande on en-swichas= on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro= povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "forprena= s" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale= plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off&quo= t;?
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, = 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500:
Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "en= swichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek= quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?

2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05= :00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esa= s uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed &quo= t;ekswichar" (to turn off).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wi= ki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido<= /a>

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolis= to] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Pos analizir la defino di "= ;swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di &quo= t;commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas siv= e adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota si= nonimo di "komutar".

Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto= en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe

=
=

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Me probis skribar defino por la vorto "dosiero":=

Kad ulu povas savigar = da me quala lu judikas olu?

Predanko!
Gilles-Ph= ilippe
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Nur la Angla "file" igas me hezitas nam propre l= u esas kontenanto (2-ma senco), ma metonimie lu esas kontenajo (1-ma senco)= .

Esperanto semblas guidar me tradukar la 2-ma senco per= "dosier-uyo"...

2017-01-17 21:47 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gp= hmorin@gmail.com>:
Me probis skribar defino por la vorto "dosiero":

Kad ulu= povas savigar da me quala lu judikas olu?

Predank= o!
Gilles-Philippe=

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hezitar*
propre =3D proprasence*

2017-01-17 21:54 GMT-05:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Nur la Angla "file" igas me h= ezitas nam propre lu esas kontenanto (2-ma senco), ma metonimie lu esas kon= tenajo (1-ma senco).

Esperanto semblas guidar me traduka= r la 2-ma senco per "dosier-uyo"...

2017-01-17 21:47 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <= ;gphmorin@gmail.com= >:
Me prob= is skribar defino por la vorto "dosiero":

Kad ulu povas savigar d= a me quala lu judikas olu?

Predanko!
Gilles-Philippe


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x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 13bdd90f-9a4c-4a6a-3dec-08d43f845ec8 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:DB5EUR01HT108; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:DB5EUR01HT108;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DB5EUR01HT108; x-forefront-prvs: 01917B1794 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB13972D69C8C1C254381DA857A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jan 2017 09:28:32.1654 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR01HT108 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jan 2017 09:28:34.0457 (UTC) FILETIME=[3D838890:01D2716D] Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=cd-DB7MdkPbYf2p7Tre2v3rpmd3nznzLiEzRfjWYjaA X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB13972D69C8C1C254381DA8577A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pure logikale vu esas justa, ma regretinde ni ja furnisis la sequanta tradu= kuri en la angla: place of deposit, depot, warehouse, depository Do sem= blas stranja nun adjuntar a ta listo, "clipboard". Adminine me volus adjun= tar -et, do depozeyeto, ma lore ol divenas tro minuciema. Me pensis pri a= ltra solvo: "clipboard" reala ne esas tote sama kam "clipboard" en redakto-= programo. La lasta esas provizora spaco por kopiita texto-bloki. Do me su= gestas: Texto-planketo ________________________________ From: linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Ne= ves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 17= January 2017 20:43 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata po= r VisualEditor Kara James, Irga loko ube on depozas ulo esas depozeyo, = anke metaforale. Magazino esas specala sorto di depozeyo. Tamen depozeyo po= vas esar mikra, mem tre mikra. Irge quale esas, omna AFGHIR-vorti por "clip= board", quale me montris, esas metaforala. Do ne suciez la skalo. GN 20= 17-01-17 19:35 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] >: Kara Goncalo Me ne povas sequar vu til "depozeyo". To e= sas ulo plu granda, quaze magazino. Esas problemo di skalo. Me opinionas = ke ol mustas esar X-planketo, ube X esas decidenda. --_000_DB5PR03MB13972D69C8C1C254381DA8577A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pure logikale vu es= as justa, ma regretinde ni ja furnisis la sequanta tradukuri en la angla:


place of deposit, depot, wareh= ouse, depository


Do= semblas stranja nun adjuntar a ta listo, "clipboard".  Admi= nine me volus adjuntar -et, do depozeyeto, ma lore ol divenas tro minuciema= .


Me pensis pri altra solvo: = "clipboard" reala ne esas tote sama kam "clipboard" en = redakto-programo.  La lasta esas provizora spaco por kopiita texto-blo= ki.  Do me sugestas:


Tex= to-planketo



=
F= rom: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on= behalf of Gon=E7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]
Sent: 17 January 2017 20:43
To: = Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEdito= r
 


Kara James,

 Irga lokoo ube on depozas ulo esas depozeyo, = anke metaforale. Magazino esas specala sorto di depozeyo. Tamen depozeyo po= vas esar mikra, mem tre mikra. Irge quale esas, omna AFGHIR-vorti por &quo= t;clipboard", quale me montris, esas metaforala. Do ne suciez la skalo= .

<= font size=3D"4">GN



2017-01-17 19:35 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <<= a href=3D"mailto:linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" target=3D"_blank">linguolisto= @yahoogroups.com>:
<= /u>
 = ;

Kara Goncalo


Me ne povas sequar vu til &quo= t;depozeyo".  To esas ulo plu granda, quaze magazino.  Esas = problemo di skalo.  Me opinionas ke ol mustas esar X-planketo, ube X e= sas decidenda.

=
<= /div>
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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 10:40:18 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroABYWct Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 10:40:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: ,, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:C1211B746D6AE56DBC5D8D3A33D065E2FFAD04CB329F832D901FFC53B821A1DF;UpperCasedChecksum:696EE90CC743DDE6E06BC9B6516316DAF752CEDC9AAB2E6BC6EFAE9C4B366AFA;SizeAsReceived:8168;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [gFqA31hz/xjvxMjHq0oBTuscXcO0rggv] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR03HT055;7:OK/TlsBE2Lss54fcW2MZpf+wtNJf9I/8uEPAyhkmBdTZlWzxkupTO5HzXgeVFGsWqIZGp+977oskKL3t0aaukYu+o0mqhUoGr8VyQo2pDuBSHAFH4pXcKMkIJdEwG+KN8vSnn/ZQsooY2L+D18kmrAcz/hhzHEmGksf+6iXLGkG2vAR81+PQtGtugJjRRdHwmRnTFZaQECdCBOYFtSmuqJNMi7oi2rlFhU6ol+6HlwenWUBHCriKoZGI13blqa81CubKNumzZqhdh4pbg+FcfgDCkLwlNG5L/OH4/H/DDNVeMgGMcBxU1EEagEU/WZFYjhEvOMixaWf8MIBgD3Qdn4lQ/BWcdXDHFsmWB+KEQVQsjnz7SYpvL3Q3w+MezN2TZhbhrItXJF8jJp81pxEfGBMF8P8rPeTwhblAUBk+tx/38Hd4+4Qi6IGD4EMYgJ3LCrFo+8clCugqnIXCQmLq0Q== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR03HT055;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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u=24528831; y=6klhcfwuJuX7QCjeGqAsbctgnVtE1Vzoq_UwbFnUwCM X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB139705788AC5E52D96F5509FFA47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subscript Superscript Literale, subskribajo, superskribajo. 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Subscript=

Superscript


=

Literale, subskribajo, superskribajo.


O ka ni seque= z la hispana:  subindexo, superindexo ?



=
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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 11:11:24 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAXhICAAWh9WA== Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 11:11:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:8066E053D6568D6430DEFBF67FC6BAD19D63B5C97A3C8B6216A59756F6E74030;UpperCasedChecksum:BDBC8438395A9432099A07583B40C624B4159654B0E45C8F6F38C355DDA532C7;SizeAsReceived:8088;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [sSenlWAMyOe4wbQYbwhKPnSXW0L2RGGj] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;HE1EUR01HT079;7:s9opfrPJv5tmARlrqLfb+rMy/XTcmVeiE5aUlyRSEQFM+NoyWarFg5cak661zQ1KBjuba2oV64ORjYfBJwUlh7NMXhEYTqWlzEKmLujp/yt71sMe4hwAoPPlpf+cvnR4ZeUkcMoDCEyvovcdpIyGK01pHQDPhKfFYklAWNJ8ubldaoQUoQQyW/jbVZwFGY+Y+sJldmWfTJ97hHzu7zIAJPSaFefQiRPggUygeqzPuAwwK6WiH2oCWwBMbmkKQe1HOc06pemE6iU1XN1heGtdHTocck1FLLnJTFPXzWau/PvM7pcQtgisCfukzpwT9P2MWneUHTMADV9/3rayKxWBBcY5Hr9k1s2E1mN/wlEeJ+M+JFHIFmBZUAuqnXrp5jPgZ8gU4/wrP7Plgod1lFNvNdtPor2UuliqJ7pVxvdSZOjVBoRC3kpyBavBzcI/xesaCPj6yVQBC4fwjCjSzfdU5A== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:HE1EUR01HT079;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 7a319732-2e03-4268-a224-08d43f92bdba x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:HE1EUR01HT079; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:HE1EUR01HT079;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:HE1EUR01HT079; x-forefront-prvs: 01917B1794 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB1397BC5FD99FC17A2B413F68A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Jan 2017 11:11:24.6542 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1EUR01HT079 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Jan 2017 11:11:27.0895 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D2B6A70:01D2717B] Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=R60CGpoHrP22Fx4ZryyiEM_2S_LyTQgaJADALYw1fbo X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB1397BC5FD99FC17A2B413F688A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pos pripensar ico, me konkordas. Me jus konservis Trastrekizar Ni nun ha= vas kin vorti tradukenda. ________________________________ From: linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Ne= ves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 17= January 2017 13:39 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata po= r VisualEditor Semblas a me ke "trastrekizar" esas plu expresiva: on ya = quaze "vidas" la streko trairanta la vorto. Anke en Esperanto on uzas tal e= xpresuro ("trastreki"). Pluse, se la ago "srike out" ne desaparigas la kon= cernata vorto ma nur trastrekizas ol, "efacar" ne esas apta. On rezervez ol= ca por tradukar "delete". --_000_DB5PR03MB1397BC5FD99FC17A2B413F688A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Pos pripensar ico, = me konkordas.  Me jus konservis Trastrekizar


Ni nu= n havas kin vorti tradukenda.



From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= on behalf of Gon=E7alo Neves gneves64@= gmail.com [linguolisto]
Sent: 17 January 2017 13:39
To: Linguolisto
Subject: Re: = [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
 


Semblas a me= ke "trastrekizar" esas plu expresiva: on ya quaze "vidas&qu= ot; la streko trairanta la vorto. Anke en Esperanto on uzas tal expresuro (= "trastreki").

Pluse, se la ago "srike out" ne desaparigas la konce= rnata vorto ma nur trastrekizas ol, "efacar" ne esas apta. On rez= ervez olca por tradukar "delete".
<= /div>

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Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga = linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro. Anke en la Portugalana on uzas la vorto = "t=C3=A9nue" ("t=C3=AAnue" en Brazilia) kun multa senci (i.a. anke pri voco= e vaporo!), do expresuri quala "tenua vaporo" o "tenua voco" tote ne shoka= s mea linguo-sento. Tamen Ido havas altra principi e kustumi kam nia lingui= nacional. Exemple, en omna AFGHIR-lingui (ed en preske omna lingui en la m= ondo!) la vorto korespondanta a "kirko" signifikas anke "eklezio", ma Ido (= same kam Esperanto) vortarale distingas la du koncepti. Do la temo esas plu= amplexa e komplikita kam on povus supozar unesma-regarde. La fakto ke, en= la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat, on lektas =C2=AB*t=C3=A9nue :*= tenua=C2=BB (p. 536), sen plusa konsideri, sen subsenci, sen exempli, ne n= ecese implikas ke omna senci e subsenci di "t=C3=A9nue" automatale tradukes= as per "tenua"! Se on komparas, exemple, en la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri= "t=C3=A9nu" (maxim magra!) ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (p. 277), on shokesa= s dal difero ed on darfas questionar su pro quo existas tala difero. Se on = konsultas l'artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trovas multa senci e subsenc= i, multa uzi figurala, ed anke multa exempli: http://atilf.atilf.fr/ Evid= ente Beaufront e Couturat ne konsultis TLFi (qua lore ne existis), ma li ce= rte konsultis ula Franca-lingua dicionario (o mem pluri) por kompozar sua l= exiko. Quan (o quin) li konsultis? Nulu savas. Tamen, kande me apertas mea = exemplero di ilustrita Larousse (1983) e me lektas lua artiklo pri "t=C3=A9= nu", me trovas nur yena defino, sen subsenci, sen exempli: =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s = fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB. Kande me konsultas l'artiklo pri "gros, grosse"= en la sama verko, me trovas sat detaloza artiklo, kontenanta multa subsenc= i ed exempli. Pluse, kelka exempli esas egala ad olti prizentita en l'artik= lo "gros, grosse" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat. Yen la komparo inter = Larousse (L) e Beaufront/Couturat (B/C): un gros arbe (L) grosse somme (L= ) grosse fi=C3=A8vre (L) gros drap (L, B/C) de gros souliers (L) du gros ro= uge (L) gros commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gociant (B/C), marchand de gr= os (B/C) grosse mer (L, B/C) grosse voix (L) grosse viande (B/C) gros temps= (B/C) gros mots (B/C) gros joueur (B/C) gros de six mois (B/C) en gros (L,= B/C), tout en gros (B/C) un gros (B/C) le gros de (B/C) acheter en gros (L= ) avoir le c=C5=93ur gros (L, B/C) avoir les yeux gros de larmes (L) faire= les gros yeux (L) gagner gros (L) =C3=A9crire gros (L, B/C) en avoir gr= os sur le c=C5=93ur (B/C) commerce en gros (B/C) rapporter gros (B/C) il= ya gros =C3=A0 parier que (B/C) fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C) On povas kons= tatar ke, en ica artiklo, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat kontenas plu mult= a exempli kam Larousse (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke lia lexiko esas tre= kompetente kompozita, quankam li certe ne disponis tam multa moyeni kam la= profesionala esquado qua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, se li skribis tante = magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga nesorgemeso o manko = di lexikografiala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to konsequas nur de ke anke l= a Franca-lingua dicionarii quin li konsultis prizentis (same kam Larousse) = tre magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la unesma senco di "t=C3=A9nu= " en TLFi (=C2=ABQui est tr=C3=A8s mince, tr=C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) esas preske = egala al unika senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la mencionita edituro di Larousse (= =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB). Measupoze, ica esas la bazala = senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la Franca, l'unika quan Beaufront e Couturat trovis= en la konsultita dicionarii e l'unika quan li fakte tradukis. Pluse, quale= on povas konstatar sub "fin" (p. 248) li atribuis a "tenua" anke un del se= nci di "fin" en la Franca, nome, olta di "konsistanta ek mikra partikuli" (= A: *fine*, F: *fin*, G: *fein*; H: *fino*; I: *minuto*,* fine*; R: =D0=BC= =D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9), aplikebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, = faruno edc. Tamen Dyer e Pesch tradukas tala senco per "subtila", quo semb= las a me plu logikoza e preferinda: la partikuli ya esas tenua, ma la subst= anco konsistanta ek tala partikuli esas subtila, ne tenua. Pluse, kande on= konsultas l'artiklo "=C3=A9pais" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat on tro= vas (p. 218): *=C3=A9pais* [...] (*dense: fluide, brouillard*) densa. Or,= se nebulo "=C3=A9pais" esas "densa" segun Beaufront/Couturat, on expektas = ke nebulo "t=C3=A9nu" esos "desdensa" o "nedensa", e ne "tenua". Kande on = konsultas l'artiklo "faible" en la sama lexiko, on lektas i.a. *faible* (= *adj.*) [...] (*voix*) ne-sonora. Lektinte lo, on expektas ke "grosse voi= x" (regretinde mankanta en la exempli che Couturat/Beaufront) esos "sonora = voco" (ne "grosa voco") e ke lua kontreajo esos "ne-sonora voco" (ne "tenua= voco"). Cetere, en la Angla-Ido-lexiko da Dyer on trovas (p. 343): *thin= :* [...] (*in space*) des-densa (air, etc.) Anke la Germana-Ido-lexiko da= Feder (1920) donas "des-densa" kom un del tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn" (p. 177= ). Cetere, ica artiklo pri "d=C3=BCnn" (same kam la tota lexiko!) esas cert= e studiinda, nam ol prizentas interesiva solvi ed exempli: dina; tenua (=C2= =ABtenua-gamba=C2=BB, =C2=ABtenua intestino=C2=BB); gracila; magra; skarsa = (=C2=ABskarsa-barba=C2=BB); fluida; aquatra; dilutita; ne-densa (=C2=ABne-d= ensa biro=C2=BB); plata (=C2=ABplata ventro=C2=BB). Pri "galerio" me konko= rdas. Nu, me skribis tro multe... GN 2017-01-17 22:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles= -Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > "tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu esas anke Angla. > tenua = =3D tenuous =3D 2. Rare; subtile; not dense; -- said of fluids. > http://ww= w.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous > > Me anke trovis libri en Google qui uza= s "tenuous voice", ex. *Guest of a > Sinner* da James Wilcox (p. 40): > *"T= hey've been phoning me," Una Merton went on in a tenuous voice, almost > a = whisper.* > > Me ne bone komprenas la Hispana, ma semblas, segun Google, ke= "voz tenue" > ya uzesas... Ka to vere esas nacionala expresuro??? > *"Con = voz tenue y ojos entornados, Hajji relata su historia."* > http://www.unfpa= .org/es/node/5897 > > "Por komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Fra= nca, la Germana, la > Angla od irg altra linguo..." > Me deskonkordas, nam = per sat bona dicionario kun defini en Ido, ni povus > uzar ta figurala senc= i en Ido e per Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS. > > La problemo, kun tua exempli, v= enas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca-Ido. Se tu > uzus la lexiko Ido-Franca, tu= vidus quante vasta la defini esas... ultempe > mem sen ula precizigo di la= senco. Do "tenua" signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e)", *en > omna senci.* > > En la = sama maniero, me konkluzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke lu > signi= fikas en la Franca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la > senco t= eatrala, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco: > https:/= /io.wiktionary.org/wiki/galerio > > Fine, la exempli da de Beaufront esas f= orsan eroroza, me konkordas. Danko > pro savigar la existo di "endetala" e = "engrosa" da me! > > --001a114425564ae41705465cc3b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gilles= -Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmeetaforala uzi tro "nacionala&qu= ot;, sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare la vorto "= tenua" o la Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga = vorto ed irga linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro. Anke en la Portugalana on = uzas la vorto "t=C3=A9nue" ("t=C3=AAnue" en Brazilia) k= un multa senci (i.a. anke pri voco e vaporo!), do expresuri quala "ten= ua vaporo" o "tenua voco" tote ne shokas mea linguo-sento. T= amen Ido havas altra principi e kustumi kam nia lingui nacional. Exemple, e= n omna AFGHIR-lingui (ed en preske omna lingui en la mondo!) la vorto kores= pondanta a "kirko" signifikas anke "eklezio", ma Ido (s= ame kam Esperanto) vortarale distingas la du koncepti. Do la temo esas plu = amplexa e komplikita kam on povus supozar unesma-regarde.

La fakto = ke, en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat, on lektas =C2=ABt=C3= =A9nue : tenua=C2=BB (p. 536), sen plusa konsideri, sen subsenci, sen e= xempli, ne necese implikas ke omna senci e subsenci di "t=C3=A9nue&quo= t; automatale tradukesas per "tenua"! Se on komparas, exemple, en= la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" (maxim magra!) ad ol= ta pri "gros, grosse" (p. 277), on shokesas dal difero ed on darf= as questionar su pro quo existas tala difero. Se on konsultas l'artiklo= pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trovas multa senci e subsenci, multa = uzi figurala, ed anke multa exempli:=C2=A0

http://ati= lf.atilf.fr/

Evidente Beaufront e Couturat ne konsultis TLFi (qua lore ne existis), m= a li certe konsultis ula Franca-lingua dicionario (o mem pluri) por kompoza= r sua lexiko. Quan (o quin) li konsultis? Nulu savas. Tamen, kande me apert= as mea exemplero di ilustrita Larousse (1983) e me lektas lua artiklo pri &= quot;t=C3=A9nu", me trovas nur yena defino, sen subsenci, sen exempli:= =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB. Kande me konsultas l'artik= lo pri "gros, grosse" en la sama verko, me trovas sat detaloza ar= tiklo, kontenanta multa subsenci ed exempli. Pluse, kelka exempli esas egal= a ad olti prizentita en l'artiklo "gros, grosse" en la lexiko= da Beaufront/Couturat. Yen la komparo inter Larousse (L) e Beaufront/Coutu= rat (B/C):

un gros arbe = (L)

grosse somme (L)
grosse fi=C3= =A8vre (L)
gros drap (L, B/C)
de gros souliers (L)
du gros roug= e (L)
gros commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gociant (B/C), marchand de = gros (B/C)
grosse mer (L, B/C)
grosse voix (L)
grosse viande (B= /C)
gros temps (B/C)
gros mots (B/C)
gros joueur (B/C)
gros= de six mois (B/C)
en gros (L, B/C), tout en gros (B/C)
un gros (B/= C)
le gros de (B/C)
acheter en gros (L)
avoir le c=C5=93ur gros= (L, B/C)

avoir les yeux gros de larmes= (L)
faire les gros yeux=C2=A0(L)

g= agner gros (L)

=C3=A9crire gros (L, B/C= )

en avoir gros sur le c=C5=93ur (B/C)<= /span>

commerce en gros (B/C)<= /p>

rapporter gros (B/C)

il ya gros =C3=A0 parier que (B/C)

fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C)

On povas konstatar ke, en ica artikl= o, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat kontenas plu multa exempli kam Larousse = (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke lia lexiko esas tre kompetente kompozita, = quankam li certe ne disponis tam multa moyeni kam la profesionala esquado q= ua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, se li skribis tante magra artiklo pri "= ;t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga nesorgemeso o manko di lexikograf= iala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to konsequas nur de ke anke la Franca-ling= ua dicionarii quin li konsultis prizentis (same kam Larousse) tre magra art= iklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la unesma senco di "t=C3=A9= nu" en TLFi (=C2=AB<= font size=3D"4">Qui= est tr=C3=A8s mince, tr=C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) esas preske egala al unika senco di "t= =C3=A9nu" en la mencionita edituro di Larousse (<= /span>= =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB). Measupoze= , ica esas la bazala senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la Franca, l'uni= ka quan Beaufront e Couturat trovis en la konsultita dicionarii e l'uni= ka quan li fakte tradukis. Pluse, quale on povas konstatar sub "fin&qu= ot; (p. 248) li atribuis a "tenua" anke un del senci di "fin= " en la Franca, nome, olta di "konsistanta ek mikra partikuli&quo= t; (A: fine, F: fin, G: fein; H: = fino; I: minuto, fine; R: =D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=BA=D0= =B8=D0=B9), aplikebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, faruno edc.=C2=A0 Tamen Dyer e Pesch tradukas tala sen= co per "subtila", quo semblas a me plu logikoza e preferinda: la = partikuli ya esas tenua, ma la substanco konsistanta ek tala partikuli esas= subtila, ne tenua.

=
Pluse, kande on = konsultas l'artiklo "=C3=A9pais" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Co= uturat on trovas (p. 218):

= =C3= =A9pais [...] (dense: fluide, brouillard) densa.

<= /font>
Or, se nebulo "=C3=A9pais" esas "den= sa" segun Beaufront/Couturat, on expektas ke nebulo "t=C3=A9nu&qu= ot; esos "desdensa" o "nedensa", e ne "tenua"= .

Kande on konsultas l'artiklo= "faible" en la sama lexiko, on lektas i.a.

=
<= font size=3D"4">faible=C2=A0 (adj.)=C2=A0 [...] (voix) ne-sonora.

= Lektinte lo, on expek= tas ke "grosse voix" (regretinde mankanta en la exempli che Coutu= rat/Beaufront) esos "sonora voco" (ne "grosa voco") e k= e lua kontreajo esos "ne-sonora voco" (ne "tenua voco")= .

Cetere, en la Angla-Ido-lexiko d= a Dyer on trovas (p. 343):

<= font size=3D"4">thin := [...] (in space) des-densa (air, etc.)

Anke la Germana-Ido-lexiko da Feder (1920) donas "des-= densa" kom un del tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn" (p. 177). Cetere,= ica artiklo pri "d=C3=BCnn" (same kam la tota lexiko!) esas cert= e studiinda, nam ol prizentas interesiva solvi ed exempli: dina; tenua (=C2= =ABtenua-gamba=C2=BB, =C2=ABtenua intestino=C2=BB); gracila; magra; skarsa = (=C2=ABskarsa-barba=C2=BB); fluida; aquatra; dilutita; ne-densa (=C2=ABne-d= ensa biro=C2=BB); plata (=C2=ABplata ventro=C2=BB).

Pri "galerio" me konkordas.

=
<= font size=3D"4">Nu, me skribis tro multe...

<= /span>
GN



2017-01-17 22:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philipp= e Morin gphmorin@gm= ail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
&quo= t;tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu esas anke Angla.
tenua = =3D tenuous =3D=C2=A02. Rare; subtile; not dense; -- said of fluids.=C2=A0<= a href=3D"http://www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous" target=3D"_blank">http= ://www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous

Me = anke trovis libri en Google qui uzas "tenuous voice", ex. Gues= t of a Sinner=C2=A0da James Wilcox (p. 40):
"They'= ;ve been phoning me," Una Merton went on in a tenuous voice, al= most a whisper.

Me ne bone komprenas la Hispan= a, ma semblas, segun Google, ke "voz tenue" ya uzesas... Ka to ve= re esas nacionala expresuro???
"Con voz tenue y ojos ento= rnados, Hajji relata su historia."

"Por komprenar Ido, on ne must= ez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, la Angla od irg altra linguo...&quo= t;
Me deskonkordas, nam per sat bona dicionario kun defini en= Ido, ni povus uzar ta figurala senci en Ido e per Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS.=

La problemo, kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uzis la= lexiko Franca-Ido. Se tu uzus la lexiko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quante vasta = la defini esas... ultempe mem sen ula precizigo di la senco. Do "tenua= " signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e)", en omna senci.

En la sama maniero, me konkluzis, pos kontrolis la v= orto "galerio", ke lu signifikas en la Franca "galerie"= nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la senco teatrala, quan Pesch mankis. To= esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco:=C2=A0https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/gale= rio

Fine, la exempli da de Beaufront esas fors= an eroroza, me konkordas. Danko pro savigar la existo di "endetala&quo= t; e "engrosa" da me!

<= /div>

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To esas quon on n= omizis =C2=ABdesktop metaphor=C2=BB o =C2=ABpaper paradigm=C2=BB. Me do kre= das, ke to esas nia devo sequar la metafori en Ido. Me adjuntez ke la =C2= =ABdesktop metaphor=C2=BB poke chanjis de ta di 1920, do on devas povar la = plu multa vorti en nia dicionarii. Konsiderinte to, la Franca uzas =C2=ABi= ndico=C2=BB e =C2=ABexponento=C2=BB, quale en matematiko. Tamen, me ne sava= s ka nur e simple =C2=ABindico=C2=BB esas tro nepreciza. Ma certe ciencala= linguo tal quala Ido ja havas vorto por qualifikar la =C2=AB2=C2=BB en =C2= =ABH2O=C2=BB, ka ne? Certe adminime =C2=ABsubindico=C2=BB e =C2=ABsuperind= ico=C2=BB esus plu justa kam =C2=ABsubskribajo=C2=BB, e.c., nam irga lineo = de texto qua trovesas super o sub ula lineo esas =C2=ABsubskribajo=C2=BB o = =C2=ABsuperskribajo=C2=BB=E2=80=A6 Ma me ankore serchas la antonimo di =C2= =ABexponento=C2=BB en Ido. On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 05:43 James Chandler id= ojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: = Subscript Supe= rscript Literale, subskribajo, superskribajo. O ka ni sequez = la hispana: subindexo, superindexo ? = --f403045ebc7a4573ee05465eae11 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
De pos la kreo di la komputero, e specale de pos Steve Jobs, on uzas m= etafori preske tam ofte kam posible kom termini informatikala. To esas quon= on nomizis =C2=ABdesktop metaphor=C2=BB o =C2=ABpaper paradigm=C2=BB. Me d= o kredas, ke to esas nia devo sequar la metafori en Ido.

Me adjuntez ke la =C2=ABdesk= top metaphor=C2=BB poke chanjis de ta di 1920, do on devas povar la plu mul= ta vorti en nia dicionarii.

Konsiderinte to, la Franca uzas =C2= =ABindico=C2=BB e =C2=ABexponento=C2=BB, quale en matematiko. Tamen, me ne = savas ka nur e simple =C2=ABindico=C2=BB esas tro nepreciza.=C2=A0

Ma certe ciencala = linguo tal quala Ido ja havas vorto por qualifikar la =C2=AB2=C2=BB en =C2= =ABH2O=C2=BB, ka ne?

Certe adminime =C2=ABsubindico=C2=BB e =C2=ABsuperindico=C2=BB e= sus plu justa kam =C2=ABsubskribajo=C2=BB, e.c., nam irga lineo de texto qu= a trovesas super o sub ula lineo esas =C2=ABsubskribajo=C2=BB o =C2=ABsuper= skribajo=C2=BB=E2=80=A6=C2=A0

Ma me ankore serchas la antonimo di =C2=ABexponento=C2= =BB en Ido.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at= 05:43 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:













<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">















=C2=A0


=



=



=


=














Subscript
<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">


=


<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">


Superscript








Literale, subskribajo, s= uperskribajo.








O ka ni sequez la hispana: =C2=A0subindexo, superindexo ?










































































=
--f403045ebc7a4573ee05465eae11-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4852 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 7241 invoked by uid 102); 18 Jan 2017 14:11:47 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 14:11:47 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 25360 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2017 14:11:47 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 14:11:47 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: Q7P9DUcWLDsVFBpEywWX7NHGXwIp_j7HeAcV2RMz6kl0QupF cm13MWJenWx4lubvCVGbkWy.nGWJbkR9N4XIM0_8wQ.z.10AxdGpOBH1jh51 iITLaZHp1n6B32afsZhjpQuW_VZbRzANLjwC3YkskTi1zuvIhMzUuQVTwOU7 nxSF0wydPzseX5ELYwrNLTkXNehndpsRQDKOJyP4x.GwbG25raJSD9QHElcZ L_x3i2eiigpND3CBzFDIcWP3_wWKhhxWKT_jZlCTrcoF8VvXQh0al6EajuUU WS0iZs4UYRPhtIIAhfUyjcTrF7GgCXF_MrEZL47xIEAER2DqnioOBisDJQV6 MU4flNXhZukAt9lH5AFlkc6oiG1Z1tBHDjomf4CfKbM2dYJgEdzXWX5_zcYW iITraxrpvyShFyPeMEDN0P4Nank6EGqc3Vi2BU6859oncOXT1csvUfK8cmox a14gQJ.5dhhXSy.j6kBMJrF5nsvLzrH37lltgqinrYF04mo2EVGQYelhk.4U 55Kp7eltuzoJv63F4UtZ1YIq.rjMK6w6Y6swGI3RSZ3Z_4qf.OLcQyGdDC6x o5QJO8KQJlC8ORovMeAIIhQr_s_cSGfWF5w5PGbEh4ayDG9qCIh7s3TGdav9 slsLkdLJhNuglc3oFfXSWajcpc216O83XnkfE9oGcyLIE9skKiwt0aZsc_O6 chb43w4YxL4zBqRxfUu1.X0FzMzNvy0boVjFnmprmsRctYG4lDZuHlBa4Qos oqgNknIjXxjVcAOvHxi1afzDqGQ7NcbVTsOvcFeJAi5vsp2ohDw8CY4QeSDl SRnX6g.jBOw8vYsxagzecNn9R5_kycTRHyHAugkz5XWuoNarPB4bn4bVbRcf r13GFsSGMwQEQfuG8Z8Am8egWEgw38jcI7nBBOKs.tGbTXf4A3zCbx5tL.Mt vWu3AMoHaHuNNraAoiViE3di.Mqsh_DuqUzb0Ks.emYSuF9H5mtKGS2Z0rRZ IcHSYHJUymkAUtpjmv.gOiAActI68ep6ltD0osBXwE0vjeKU8IQm_EE1Y8AK RsExfAMHehlRhX_g90oRPAlvbBfclEikIJ4mcuQBn0k_vxAfEetbHOAeAsbk fr_NxJ1umWESRmE1NjGoS5i0EzowWVBdJcoIICV.9OhneNO_bC7pkXAjX89R ewX2F4gdMegXBZ6E05fL8a88fR3HwPgjDJFQ9FgW_CIuX2V7K1hlrw12yJqy njn8aads2GN49xp2znV8dnOUnWbATyPtqf7SNkSZt1pkhHeTFkLBxOcuwq8l 5wV.ycLdWbzlk4CN_PRloCL1TD7abOBrJJ6BDyIOnrMKS10tIQ0rtaTlftBr WeWWHMHBMI8BlaNz1rAwyi_HbspsiJUCpPPWKdfzdBRFCTmpNkCTtJGHhR.C ORFWoK0GvBTok4Q6oC_2RtZRU67rkIAb.3V5AxmAYddPmNHMIO36nVLVsyQV q0qLoHzVCcxALXp4Z4XRRTE- Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f48.google.com) (209.85.215.48) by mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 14:11:47 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f48.google.com with SMTP id z134so12555689lff.3 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 06:11:46 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=QwFGURWDpapDZncCyo0UcOK5U1Hyokn0vzHflyTnHkI=; b=Fm0MvS7/N83t+YFHrq9AF/+s2741MDKOK9Ut3ZZQ2XzEmDzAN+8LnWloNz8ofCCGAl +JAFLJ5nRQ7hxFUtfYM+xgfUgoHiJsPPU9TLY4vcvutBSx7y0aNKnatUMVzVL1RH3jdM 8udQVt4CGBn32Lr0opQh4l8evke1d3OulLzK0mzmQlGSO7X/7fuHJeDaHAy5w51zFBww vIJktyEwQQOQE2g9nEXAdCyl4pFR5bckucQHtcm2QnwC+P4kCMfAgPl6asvVtFn7BO+F aYFEaKFlcPK3Uryts99kvPBZTVEO/pv4Mygv2QJo98npptOvPMluz3Nn3kpSEaJZvDPr 2dzg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXI0pNctRCa2m1FU8hZ6oil3UpB7YtsY8iLX9Y0OjeEa1SQoVpnL2epF5UhWWZ1I3achJ3pZt8Cedvja8A== X-Received: by 10.46.0.228 with SMTP id e97mr1637432lji.49.1484748336474; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 06:05:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 06:05:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 09:05:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142bac42d2ed405465ee9c6 Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1142bac42d2ed405465ee9c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pos konsultir la Webster di 1913, me nun havas certeso. La justa vorto esa= s =C2=ABsubindico=C2=BB, nam en 1913 on uzis la vorto =C2=ABsubindex=C2=BB = (pluralo =C2=ABsubindices=C2=BB) en cienco: *(*Math.*) A number or mark pl= aced opposite the lower part of a letter or symbol to distinguish the symbo= l; thus, a=E2=82=80, b=E2=82=81, c=E2=82=82, x=E2=82=99, have 0, 1, 2, and = n as subindices.* http://www.websters1913.com/words/Subindex La vorto por= "index" en Ido esas "indico", ne "indexo" (qua esas tabelo). Por "supersc= ript", me kredas ke "superindexo" maxim koherus e sequus logiko maxim bone.= On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Gilles-Philippe Morin wrote: > De pos la kreo di la komputero, e specale de pos Steve Jobs, o= n uzas > metafori preske tam ofte kam posible kom termini informatikala. To= esas > quon on nomizis =C2=ABdesktop metaphor=C2=BB o =C2=ABpaper paradigm= =C2=BB. Me do kredas, ke to > esas nia devo sequar la metafori en Ido. > > = Me adjuntez ke la =C2=ABdesktop metaphor=C2=BB poke chanjis de ta di 1920, = do on > devas povar la plu multa vorti en nia dicionarii. > > Konsiderinte = to, la Franca uzas =C2=ABindico=C2=BB e =C2=ABexponento=C2=BB, quale en > m= atematiko. Tamen, me ne savas ka nur e simple =C2=ABindico=C2=BB esas tro n= epreciza. > > Ma certe ciencala linguo tal quala Ido ja havas vorto por qua= lifikar la > =C2=AB2=C2=BB en =C2=ABH2O=C2=BB, ka ne? > > Certe adminime = =C2=ABsubindico=C2=BB e =C2=ABsuperindico=C2=BB esus plu justa kam > =C2=AB= subskribajo=C2=BB, e.c., nam irga lineo de texto qua trovesas super o sub u= la > lineo esas =C2=ABsubskribajo=C2=BB o =C2=ABsuperskribajo=C2=BB=E2=80= =A6 > > Ma me ankore serchas la antonimo di =C2=ABexponento=C2=BB en Ido. >= > On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 05:43 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com > [linguo= listo] wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > Subscript > > > > > > > > > > > Superscript > > > > > > > > L= iterale, subskribajo, superskribajo. > > > > > > > > O ka ni sequez la hisp= ana: subindexo, superindexo ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --001a1142bac42d2ed405465ee9c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pos konsultir la Webster di 1913, me nun havas certeso.
La justa vorto esas =C2=ABsubindico=C2=BB, nam en 1913 on = uzis la vorto =C2=ABsubindex=C2=BB (pluralo =C2=ABsubindices=C2=BB) en cien= co:

(Math.) A number or mark placed oppo= site the lower part of a letter or symbol to distinguish the symbol; thus, = a=E2=82=80,=C2=A0b=E2=82=81, c=E2=82=82,=C2=A0x=E2=82=99, have 0, 1, 2, and= n as subindices.


La vorto por "index" en= Ido esas "indico", ne "indexo" (qua esas tabelo).

Por "superscript", me kredas ke "superi= ndexo" maxim koherus e sequus logiko maxim bone.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:4= 8 AM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
=
De pos la kreo di la komputero, e specale de pos St= eve Jobs, on uzas metafori preske tam ofte kam posible kom termini informat= ikala. To esas quon on nomizis =C2=ABdesktop metaphor=C2=BB o =C2=ABpaper p= aradigm=C2=BB. Me do kredas, ke to esas nia devo sequar la metafori en Ido.=

Me adjuntez ke la =C2=ABdesktop metaphor= =C2=BB poke chanjis de ta di 1920, do on devas povar la plu multa vorti en = nia dicionarii.

Konsiderinte to, la Franca uzas =C2=ABindico=C2=BB e =C2=ABex= ponento=C2=BB, quale en matematiko. Tamen, me ne savas ka nur e simple =C2= =ABindico=C2=BB esas tro nepreciza.=C2=A0

M= a certe ciencala linguo tal quala Ido ja havas vorto por qualifikar la =C2= =AB2=C2=BB en =C2=ABH2O=C2=BB, ka ne?

Certe= adminime =C2=ABsubindico=C2=BB e =C2=ABsuperindico=C2=BB esus plu justa ka= m =C2=ABsubskribajo=C2=BB, e.c., nam irga lineo de texto qua trovesas super= o sub ula lineo esas =C2=ABsubskribajo=C2=BB o =C2=ABsuperskribajo=C2=BB= =E2=80=A6=C2=A0

Ma me ankore serchas la ant= onimo di =C2=ABexponento=C2=BB en Ido.

On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 05:43 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:





























=C2=A0










=














Subscript









Superscr= ipt








Literale, subskribajo, superskribajo= .








O ka ni sequez la hispana: =C2=A0sub= indexo, superindexo ?













<= div class=3D"m_6131997982619956924gmail_msg">



<= /div>



























=





























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Wed, 18 Jan 2017 14:29:42 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroABYWctgAA3O4CAAASmgIAABX1J Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 14:29:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:CBCFFD5EDE0118209181EF6C027A7D6F5649995646957E86C7B87453BBA68E20;UpperCasedChecksum:310769E7D531D0C9833F733BAA5638BB5CD1F5AE9A730BB7C06A6123835DFACA;SizeAsReceived:8414;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [xT1MNSuu9ZPACRFXiR2JSgyc9faoT1Ux] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR02HT166;7:oc6Bi1fh3kWME3RXTJZYdLSWzayYLQWKuLufepF6l+SHUu15k+FCkN5G9jrstiBfCTPvIVozAPolLz67VWTnCVXA50/I29QvnxkIztz9UNgc44AhXQzUSVVpO5THYKg+1N++WWlDahERzr+2Qs/AkVRGajBVp0bK3DX+w34sGCN2pOe1N38VjuJpyVlaILEolAaC9Hg+G44OWpDC0rS7R0tF/eeikCQSbtvPfm4hcFULjYGzFgACSPuiCoELL9/7u0rLO+g0XXRWW5U7RIPfVBpj56XZEqxhi4qzksaDqf6DODIr3Vqa8UekERo2MxGKw673sCTBkuUWEIsZkDBZkueHiPaJlk4DJhP+SZUFGzpKF7HtooM6crrtC9ZWypo8shHwUVTTO+qC1e/DKyb0RFrrLcBrhGla93yys9lqHQjG51keZjC28vRhqy3zXClxsAIBoFqUoLOUiePgV5hb8Q== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR02HT166;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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u=24528831; y=8l-JS0yZxK_pjYD4-FsxM4zRGzk_OQyCEbK7Z0CpdOQ X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB13979BB518BDEDBFF42539388A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe Yes, semblas ke vu esas justa: indico ne indexo (to = esas eroro da angla-parolanto). Do me kredas ke por ica du vorti ni havas = solvo: Subscript - Subindico Superscript - Superindico Se nulu objecionas= , ni povus konservar ica paro. ________________________________ From: lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gilles-= Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 18 January 2017 14:05 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi = bezonata por VisualEditor Pos konsultir la Webster di 1913, me nun havas= certeso. La justa vorto esas =ABsubindico=BB, nam en 1913 on uzis la vort= o =ABsubindex=BB (pluralo =ABsubindices=BB) en cienco: (Math.) A number or= mark placed opposite the lower part of a letter or symbol to distinguish t= he symbol; thus, a?, b?, c?, x?, have 0, 1, 2, and n as subindices. http:/= /www.websters1913.com/words/Subindex La vorto por "index" en Ido esas "ind= ico", ne "indexo" (qua esas tabelo). Por "superscript", me kredas ke "supe= rindexo" maxim koherus e sequus logiko maxim bone. --_000_DB5PR03MB13979BB518BDEDBFF42539388A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kara Gilles-Philipp= e


Yes, semblas ke vu esas justa: indico ne indexo (to e= sas eroro da angla-parolanto).


Do me kredas ke po= r ica du vorti ni havas solvo:

Subscript - Subi= ndico
Superscript - Superindico

Se n= ulu objecionas, ni povus konservar ica paro.

From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 18 January 2017 14:05
= To: Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por = VisualEditor
 


Pos konsultir la Webster di 1913, me nun havas certeso.

=
La justa vorto esas =ABsubindico=BB, nam en 1913 on uzis la vorto =ABs= ubindex=BB (pluralo =ABsubindices=BB) en cienco:

(Math.) A number or mark placed opposite the lower part of a le= tter or symbol to distinguish the symbol; thus, a₀, b₁, c&= #8322;, xₙ, have 0, 1, 2, and n as subindices.


La vorto por "= ;index" en Ido esas "indico", ne "indexo" (qua esa= s tabelo).

Por "superscript", me kred= as ke "superindexo" maxim koherus e sequus logiko maxim bone.

--_000_DB5PR03MB13979BB518BDEDBFF42539388A47F0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4854 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 16527 invoked by uid 102); 18 Jan 2017 15:29:59 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 15:29:59 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 10779 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2017 15:29:59 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 15:29:59 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: odwAn18WLDuffrLfFtQphf9MaD40qBB.5U5XJP2hnYKldzSK TaSDJekGktx.U8EyuYFUZl9nrT9uQYSxEm602z.kG1p9wU_N67esDsd3V0sR BkUSxtGNj9ZsWyPUmKt1j7B4iz6PbAotq6mzZvxtVQqfhA3sFM8rxeUE2OYB pU6Bz.tqjc._eAdcy3vAxEyZPjXd3v5JhLXsx7qGlev_g79tQxcEr0rKGsM1 qH4LHN_ahbCdzwDZN.VepF_Fp.fa1Tx2VZymWEnsZI7GNnxUqztzYK0Z5LBS UcuzOgWP_qgrF9EQv7ImDxw6.7IluNrYMO.bMpH4SfyvYIDBN6s2IUFPRTfB 5ivXO5sVv1G55uX33yW2yROZtZMRprZPIN8dw_xBAxbLF3ZPIu.TUekgH4xl f1Uj9d6kaeILeQvC7cuU.6fJrqQM3Zc.rjXek334fXVg9_71kEjad33Q4SGH wh6XYQWzd2bGfGZ5OIqAGLBatbqJydVzQRsdtoB47y_6Yt90Ql2BUqJo.lVb DbDweE8yNm3kqlAhlqD__6L6B_oC6XaXu6F9_L66Umvd0jLiZCv77mc8Ypp9 p.492FtsmvbtJg2VWgv3e6_S4OVMA85UAIMQROKWHGFw1ddWVCAwyVDXI1ag zsL3r5TchZfwNSJ332YR6djbTqN0EqZvGBlnnV8Ab1e.H89NO388miAiCm8l XIvtapEAZlEffgKzrx3J5Ii5j3sNNeM8neEXWYtjpeeEbS7ODhxulCK8GMRg vjwE9mN2nXsE1bOUbcdiH.hOwk9v25yh1lxfybD5FnKS7_1jMwhSoFPKF5H0 mXDx1pCObnDo5WXlpe3mS6cNYezeLzFe0LXPHCWoUmbPt4aOezv1GqtMBH.b i4QtOeMy2HrequcK2nSIxb_cqQUWxEqvQjOWZdnAko1amJXGo7_f93Pdhn0M pVXlaPPdDvEx9xaRoGleYevQhGEQk8kzOJeV2cSqdNeOdOd9B.D14dRCY8tA g7R3w31U2C7X.x_CsAP9CD8p5y02YmozQt5TbZ_M_UxAT.yaiKIun09XErHP lWNL9AJVa_fIieiBO2Tnhwgf2lrxouJ2dfHn3NCLrPY1DnM.p13dFnDbTb03 1rlUFE3UiFhnlJM5BoHB69UQyzbbnX17.XrIC.kUnifcd1EnzjktHa0GGKTk AMMc73mX40K1Jpr2jxAsDYhSyPmsaU53H3GVINPTv0ABCkl7_j2n3290WNxM wbeRNnbeFIY7URLSmEOYUu3LvPBhq7AT20.sORGRFy9LlPH5ojYATMzoVF3g JpomqJUvDN8pdeiUw9yYfEy.kWnRT2STjzx_HXvfHJaINO4_x6olQkv4MDWY WRf0O__Pf_WI82o.Ohx6GAGTnhX8DmiVFZHi3kxJue0lLJUI.YBbutRKUi3I o3yjr.ORS5xL4o8Sr6V6bZ0hSImkKwAohw4yqZZKDQf3.4lmwBHRn99m0OZ4 Zt80qG4d0XLRjNl6hqVxY7QPxEaljRQc.4oVHqJrFwrsosDFIugQvN_OgRCE Nd6GQCV.b9mvjqsOebrgAZUM8lJGsT6pCL85jpFFmeGSBiiV0_KKA7dejvLo O5FyVuPLIQL30L.3hhzDUbqK1_dm Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f48.google.com) (209.85.215.48) by mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 15:29:59 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f48.google.com with SMTP id z134so14654632lff.3 for ; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:29:58 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=w8GsYeDDVD6qUt8SYVF513Y4lRzr0J9hooI4qEwhnYg=; b=NjrH4UpA7RSGc+uhyl26/th/vDzNxGUZLI4XUxE4uJo7VpfE20vg+Pw3eczP0x4x19 eomrnHUfsiok89fMp5S0LtmY9wroHXW+mwX+8iuFUesQMHecnM/F8Pyrq9OZHG7qtD1W HJrlMMfHz+s08G0gFDgyrbw2o7lLsttDJUO7FIa67fTLDUslDyAQRvbm2u4pVhkb8XBL ppX5RgNRldmliG1QcsYJiYB4uT5/0PE+28lMQo5/qOwjOn9vbPgD69nsAdwBI8XGiV8/ iW5VuKguHNxuRVN7tVwvbq+6gc0BUrWP6hCDOyRru3WwWmcYzkdMAx6wgnM7/C/kFmOh Fb2A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKt8uGNLGHG6XT1uy+pH5LjnfUCPbscTGEUIpi5fB7oj/MRqPETiM/ONStURi9kdaF4M0mX2gV1azeAtw== X-Received: by 10.25.16.28 with SMTP id f28mr1578094lfi.89.1484752977195; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:22:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.114.118.35 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 07:22:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 10:22:56 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f8fa4c909c405465ffd3c Subject: Re: [linguo] dika literi X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a113f8fa4c909c405465ffd3c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Certe, segun TLFi, =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB esas antonimo di =C2=ABdensa=C2=BB e = =C2=ABgrosa=C2=BB: http://www.cnrtl.fr/antonymie/t%C3%A9nu Segun TLFi, esa= s difero inter =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB (grosa voco) e =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9pais= se=C2=BB. =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB esas voco grosa, forta, dum ke =C2=ABvoix= =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB esas voco rauka pro salivo densa. La Angla facas la sa= ma distingo: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/thick Tua exempl= o, =C2=ABintestino tenua=C2=BB, remarkigis da me ke anke la Franca =C2=ABvo= ix gr=C3=AAle=C2=BB tradukesas a Ido per =C2=ABvoco tenua=C2=BB... http://= www.cnrtl.fr/definition/gr%C3%AAle Donald Broadribb, eminenta membro di Ad= E, anke uzis =C2=ABmaldika=C2=BB (tenua, anke por la intestino) por deskrip= tar voco en sua tradukuro *Mil Na=C5=ADcent Okdek Kvar* (p. 164): http://i-= espero.info/files/elibroj/eo%20-%20orwell,%20george%20-%201984.pdf Pluse: = =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB en la libro *Du Rakontoj en la linguo internacia= esperanto: la nova Jaro*, Antoni Grabowski, 1891, p. 18: https://books.goo= gle.ca/books?id=3Dlte6q3vgFjUC&printsec=3Dfrontcover Nu, la eminenta Anton= i Grabowski tradukis =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB de... la Polona! To demonst= ras ke =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB e =C2=ABtenua voco=C2=BB ya esas exter DEFIRS= . (Aparte, forsan tu havus la litero =C2=ABG=C2=BB en PIV vice =C2=ABGN=C2= =BB se Antoni Grabowski ne esabus Esperantisto...) Nu, se tala Esperantist= i uzis =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB en la praktikale maxim neutra konstruktita linguo = en la mondo, forsan to ne esas grava. Forsan to *tre* neimportas! Tala kom= pari kun DEFIRS, e mem Esperanto, povus esar senfina! =C2=ABGilles-Philipp= e, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmetaforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaci= ona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la Franca ling= uo. Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga linguo, mem ex= ter la AFGHIR-kadro.=C2=BB Nu, Ido ed Esperanto havas =C2=ABfine!=C2=BB (D= . endlich! E. at last! F. enfin! I. finalmente! S. =C2=A1por fin!), =C2=ABt= erpomo=C2=BB (D. Erdapfel, F. pomme de terre) e =C2=ABridetar=C2=BB (L. sub= ridere, F. sourire, I. sorridere, S. sonre=C3=ADr), qui sustenesas ne da lo= giko ma da DEFIRS. Same pri =C2=ABmarhundo=C2=BB en Ido (D. Seehund, E. sea= dog), =C2=ABbernaklo-muslo=C2=BB (E. F. barnacle)... Se on bezonus plu ka= m nur DEFIRS, nu, ni quik reformez nia linguo... tre severe. Semblas ke on = ja komencis la laboro per =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB e =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB... Nun ni= quik trovez nova vorti por la altri! En mea opiniono, me judikas plu grav= a la vorti quin, en Ido, on uzas kande lia senco *ja restriktesis*. Exemple= , me ja vidis certena Franculo uzar =C2=ABsuperba=C2=BB omnube lu volis tra= dukar la Franca =C2=ABsuperbe=C2=BB (belega). Nu! To esas eroro, nam la sen= ci definita interdiktas tala uzo. Me ja vidis, tre ofte, (e certe me ipsa i= nkluzite) uli uzar =C2=ABaktiva=C2=BB vice =C2=ABagiva=C2=BB: =C2=ABaktiva = Idisto, aktiva volkano=C2=BB. Nu! To anke esas eroro, nam la senci definita= interdiktas tala uzo. O me ja vidis =C2=ABspecifika=C2=BB (teknikala vorto= !) vice =C2=ABspecigiva=C2=BB. E.c., e.c., e.c.. 2017-01-18 6:31 GMT-05:00= Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com>: > > > Gilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmetaforala uzi= tro "nacionala", sen > internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare = la vorto "tenua" o la Franca > linguo. Mea remarko esis generala e koncerni= s irga vorto ed irga linguo, > mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro. Anke en la Portug= alana on uzas la vorto "t=C3=A9nue" > ("t=C3=AAnue" en Brazilia) kun multa = senci (i.a. anke pri voco e vaporo!), do > expresuri quala "tenua vaporo" o= "tenua voco" tote ne shokas mea > linguo-sento. Tamen Ido havas altra prin= cipi e kustumi kam nia lingui > nacional. Exemple, en omna AFGHIR-lingui (e= d en preske omna lingui en la > mondo!) la vorto korespondanta a "kirko" si= gnifikas anke "eklezio", ma Ido > (same kam Esperanto) vortarale distingas = la du koncepti. Do la temo esas > plu amplexa e komplikita kam on povus sup= ozar unesma-regarde. > > La fakto ke, en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront/= Couturat, on lektas =C2=AB*t=C3=A9nue > :* tenua=C2=BB (p. 536), sen plusa = konsideri, sen subsenci, sen exempli, ne > necese implikas ke omna senci e = subsenci di "t=C3=A9nue" automatale tradukesas > per "tenua"! Se on kompara= s, exemple, en la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri > "t=C3=A9nu" (maxim magra!)= ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (p. 277), on shokesas dal > difero ed on darfas= questionar su pro quo existas tala difero. Se on > konsultas l'artiklo pri= "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trovas multa senci e subsenci, > multa uzi figurala= , ed anke multa exempli: > > http://atilf.atilf.fr/ > > Evidente Beaufront = e Couturat ne konsultis TLFi (qua lore ne existis), ma > li certe konsultis= ula Franca-lingua dicionario (o mem pluri) por kompozar > sua lexiko. Quan= (o quin) li konsultis? Nulu savas. Tamen, kande me apertas > mea exemplero= di ilustrita Larousse (1983) e me lektas lua artiklo pri > "t=C3=A9nu", me= trovas nur yena defino, sen subsenci, sen exempli: =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, > = tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB. Kande me konsultas l'artiklo pri "gros, grosse" en l= a sama > verko, me trovas sat detaloza artiklo, kontenanta multa subsenci e= d > exempli. Pluse, kelka exempli esas egala ad olti prizentita en l'artikl= o > "gros, grosse" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat. Yen la komparo inter= > Larousse (L) e Beaufront/Couturat (B/C): > > un gros arbe (L) > > grosse= somme (L) > grosse fi=C3=A8vre (L) > gros drap (L, B/C) > de gros souliers= (L) > du gros rouge (L) > gros commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gociant (B= /C), marchand de gros (B/C) > grosse mer (L, B/C) > grosse voix (L) > gross= e viande (B/C) > gros temps (B/C) > gros mots (B/C) > gros joueur (B/C) > g= ros de six mois (B/C) > en gros (L, B/C), tout en gros (B/C) > un gros (B/C= ) > le gros de (B/C) > acheter en gros (L) > avoir le c=C5=93ur gros (L, B/= C) > > avoir les yeux gros de larmes (L) > faire les gros yeux (L) > > gagn= er gros (L) > > =C3=A9crire gros (L, B/C) > > en avoir gros sur le c=C5=93u= r (B/C) > > commerce en gros (B/C) > > rapporter gros (B/C) > > il ya gros = =C3=A0 parier que (B/C) > fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C) > > On povas konstata= r ke, en ica artiklo, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat > kontenas plu multa = exempli kam Larousse (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke > lia lexiko esas tre= kompetente kompozita, quankam li certe ne disponis tam > multa moyeni kam = la profesionala esquado qua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, > se li skribis ta= nte magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga > nesorgemeso o = manko di lexikografiala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to > konsequas nur de k= e anke la Franca-lingua dicionarii quin li konsultis > prizentis (same kam = Larousse) tre magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la > unesma senco d= i "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi (=C2=ABQui est tr=C3=A8s mince, tr=C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) = esas > preske egala al unika senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la mencionita edituro = di Larousse (=C2=ABTr=C3=A8s > fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB). Measupoze, ica = esas la bazala senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la > Franca, l'unika quan Beaufront = e Couturat trovis en la konsultita > dicionarii e l'unika quan li fakte tra= dukis. Pluse, quale on povas > konstatar sub "fin" (p. 248) li atribuis a "= tenua" anke un del senci di > "fin" en la Franca, nome, olta di "konsistant= a ek mikra partikuli" (A: > *fine*, F: *fin*, G: *fein*; H: *fino*; I: *min= uto*,* fine*; R: =D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9), > aplikebla a sablo= , pluvo, polvo, pulvero, faruno edc. Tamen Dyer e Pesch > tradukas tala se= nco per "subtila", quo semblas a me plu logikoza e > preferinda: la partiku= li ya esas tenua, ma la substanco konsistanta ek tala > partikuli esas subt= ila, ne tenua. > > Pluse, kande on konsultas l'artiklo "=C3=A9pais" en la l= exiko da > Beaufront/Couturat on trovas (p. 218): > > *=C3=A9pais* [...] (*= dense: fluide, brouillard*) densa. > > Or, se nebulo "=C3=A9pais" esas "den= sa" segun Beaufront/Couturat, on expektas > ke nebulo "t=C3=A9nu" esos "des= densa" o "nedensa", e ne "tenua". > > Kande on konsultas l'artiklo "faible"= en la sama lexiko, on lektas i.a. > > *faible* (*adj.*) [...] (*voix*) n= e-sonora. > > Lektinte lo, on expektas ke "grosse voix" (regretinde mankant= a en la > exempli che Couturat/Beaufront) esos "sonora voco" (ne "grosa voc= o") e ke > lua kontreajo esos "ne-sonora voco" (ne "tenua voco"). > > Ceter= e, en la Angla-Ido-lexiko da Dyer on trovas (p. 343): > > *thin :* [...] (*= in space*) des-densa (air, etc.) > > Anke la Germana-Ido-lexiko da Feder (1= 920) donas "des-densa" kom un del > tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn" (p. 177). Cete= re, ica artiklo pri "d=C3=BCnn" (same kam la > tota lexiko!) esas certe stu= diinda, nam ol prizentas interesiva solvi ed > exempli: dina; tenua (=C2=AB= tenua-gamba=C2=BB, =C2=ABtenua intestino=C2=BB); gracila; magra; > skarsa (= =C2=ABskarsa-barba=C2=BB); fluida; aquatra; dilutita; ne-densa (=C2=ABne-de= nsa > biro=C2=BB); plata (=C2=ABplata ventro=C2=BB). > > Pri "galerio" me k= onkordas. > > Nu, me skribis tro multe... > > GN > > > > 2017-01-17 22:47 G= MT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> "tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu esas = anke Angla. >> tenua =3D tenuous =3D 2. Rare; subtile; not dense; -- said o= f fluids. >> http://www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous >> >> Me anke trovis= libri en Google qui uzas "tenuous voice", ex. *Guest of a >> Sinner* da Ja= mes Wilcox (p. 40): >> *"They've been phoning me," Una Merton went on in a = tenuous voice, almost >> a whisper.* >> >> Me ne bone komprenas la Hispana,= ma semblas, segun Google, ke "voz tenue" >> ya uzesas... Ka to vere esas n= acionala expresuro??? >> *"Con voz tenue y ojos entornados, Hajji relata su= historia."* >> http://www.unfpa.org/es/node/5897 >> >> "Por komprenar Ido,= on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, la >> Angla od irg altra= linguo..." >> Me deskonkordas, nam per sat bona dicionario kun defini en I= do, ni povus >> uzar ta figurala senci en Ido e per Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS= . >> >> La problemo, kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca-Ido= . Se >> tu uzus la lexiko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quante vasta la defini esas.= .. >> ultempe mem sen ula precizigo di la senco. Do "tenua" signifikas "t= =C3=A9nu(e)", *en >> omna senci.* >> >> En la sama maniero, me konkluzis, p= os kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke lu >> signifikas en la Franca "galerie"= nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la >> senco teatrala, quan Pesch mankis.= To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco: >> https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/ga= lerio >> >> Fine, la exempli da de Beaufront esas forsan eroroza, me konkor= das. Danko >> pro savigar la existo di "endetala" e "engrosa" da me! >> >> = > > --001a113f8fa4c909c405465ffd3c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Certe, segun TLFi, =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB esas antoni= mo di =C2=ABdensa=C2=BB e =C2=ABgrosa=C2=BB:

Segun TLFi, esas difero inter =C2=ABgrosse vo= ix=C2=BB (grosa voco) e =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB. =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2= =BB esas voco grosa, forta, dum ke =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB esas voco = rauka pro salivo densa.

La Angla facas la sama dis= tingo:=C2=A0= https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/thick

=
Tua exemplo, =C2=ABintestino tenua=C2=BB, remarkigis da me ke anke la = Franca =C2=ABvoix gr=C3=AAle=C2=BB tradukesas a Ido per =C2=ABvoco tenua=C2= =BB...


Donald Broadribb, eminenta membro di AdE, anke uzis =C2=AB= maldika=C2=BB (tenua, anke por la intestino) por deskriptar voco en sua tra= dukuro Mil Na=C5=ADcent Okdek Kvar (p. 164):

Pluse: =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB en la l= ibro=C2=A0Du Rakontoj en la linguo internacia esperanto: la nova Jaro, Antoni Grabowski, 1891, p. 18:
Nu, la eminenta Antoni Grabowski tradukis =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o= =C2=BB de... la Polona! To demonstras ke =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB e =C2=ABten= ua voco=C2=BB ya esas exter DEFIRS.

(Aparte, forsa= n tu havus la litero =C2=ABG=C2=BB en PIV vice =C2=ABGN=C2=BB se Antoni Gra= bowski ne esabus Esperantisto...)

Nu, se tala Espe= rantisti uzis =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB en la praktikale maxim neutra konstruktita = linguo en la mondo, forsan to ne esas grava. Forsan to tre neimporta= s!

Tala kompari kun DEFIRS, e mem Esperanto, povus= esar senfina!

=C2=ABGilles-Philippe, kande me ave= rtis pri =C2=ABmetaforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaciona s= usteno=C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la Franca= linguo. Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga linguo, m= em exter la AFGHIR-kadro.=C2=BB

Nu, Ido ed Esperanto ha= vas =C2=ABfine!=C2=BB (D. endlich!=C2=A0E. at last! F. enfin! I. finalmente= ! S. =C2=A1por fin!), =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB (D. Erdapfel, F. pomme de terre) = e =C2=ABridetar=C2=BB (L. subridere, F. sourire, I. sorridere, S. sonre=C3= =ADr), qui sustenesas ne da logiko ma da DEFIRS. Same pri =C2=ABmarhundo=C2= =BB en Ido (D. Seehund, E. sea dog), =C2=ABbernaklo-muslo=C2=BB (E. F. barn= acle)...

Se on bezonus plu kam nur DEFIRS, nu, ni quik r= eformez nia linguo... tre severe. Semblas ke on ja komencis la laboro per = =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB e =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB... Nun ni quik trovez nova vorti po= r la altri!

En mea opiniono, me judikas plu grava = la vorti quin, en Ido, on uzas kande lia senco ja restriktesis. Exem= ple, me ja vidis certena Franculo uzar =C2=ABsuperba=C2=BB omnube lu volis = tradukar la Franca =C2=ABsuperbe=C2=BB (belega). Nu! To esas eroro, nam la = senci definita interdiktas tala uzo. Me ja vidis, tre ofte, (e certe me ips= a inkluzite) uli uzar =C2=ABaktiva=C2=BB vice =C2=ABagiva=C2=BB: =C2=ABakti= va Idisto, aktiva volkano=C2=BB. Nu! To anke esas eroro, nam la senci defin= ita interdiktas tala uzo. O me ja vidis =C2=ABspecifika=C2=BB (teknikala vo= rto!) vice =C2=ABspecigiva=C2=BB. E.c., e.c., e.c..

2017-01-18 6:31 GMT-05:00 G= on=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=


L= a fakto ke, en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat, on lektas =C2=AB= t=C3=A9nue : tenua=C2=BB (p. 536), sen plusa konsideri, sen subsenci= , sen exempli, ne necese implikas ke omna senci e subsenci di "t=C3=A9= nue" automatale tradukesas per "tenua"! Se on komparas, exem= ple, en la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" (maxim magra!= ) ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (p. 277), on shokesas dal difero ed = on darfas questionar su pro quo existas tala difero. Se on konsultas l'= artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trovas multa senci e subsenci,= multa uzi figurala, ed anke multa exempli:=C2=A0

http://atilf.atilf.fr/

Evidente Beaufront e Couturat ne konsultis TL= Fi (qua lore ne existis), ma li certe konsultis ula Franca-lingua dicionari= o (o mem pluri) por kompozar sua lexiko. Quan (o quin) li konsultis? Nulu s= avas. Tamen, kande me apertas mea exemplero di ilustrita Larousse (1983) e = me lektas lua artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", me trovas nur yena defino,= sen subsenci, sen exempli: =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB. Kan= de me konsultas l'artiklo pri "gros, grosse" en la sama verko= , me trovas sat detaloza artiklo, kontenanta multa subsenci ed exempli. Plu= se, kelka exempli esas egala ad olti prizentita en l'artiklo "gros= , grosse" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat. Yen la komparo inter Lar= ousse (L) e Beaufront/Couturat (B/C):

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt">un gr= os arbe (L)

grosse somme (L)
grosse fi=C3=A8vre (L) gros drap (L, B/C)
de gros souliers (L)
du gros rouge (L)
gro= s commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gociant (B/C), marchand de gros (B/C) grosse mer (L, B/C)
grosse voix (L)
grosse viande (B/C)
gros = temps (B/C)
gros mots (B/C)
gros joueur (B/C)
gros de six mois = (B/C)
en gros (L, B/C), tout en gros (B/C)
un gros (B/C)
le gro= s de (B/C)
acheter en gros (L)
avoir le c=C5=93ur gros (L, B/C)

<= span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"times new roman",seri= f;color:blue">avoir les yeux gros de larmes (L)
faire les gros yeux=C2= =A0(L)

gagner gros (L)

=C3=A9crire gros (= L, B/C)

en avoir gros sur le c=C5=93ur (B/C)

commerce en gros (B/C)

rapporter gros (B/C)

il ya gros =C3=A0 parier que (B/C)

fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C)

On povas konstatar ke, en ica artiklo, la lexiko d= a Beaufront/Couturat kontenas plu multa exempli kam Larousse (20 kontre 16)= ! To ya montras ke lia lexiko esas tre kompetente kompozita, quankam li cer= te ne disponis tam multa moyeni kam la profesionala esquado qua kompozis La= rousse. Konseque, se li skribis tante magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu&quo= t;, to ne konsequas de irga nesorgemeso o manko di lexikografiala kompetent= eso. Me supozas ke to konsequas nur de ke anke la Franca-lingua dicionarii = quin li konsultis prizentis (same kam Larousse) tre magra artiklo pri "= ;t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la unesma senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en = TLFi (=C2=ABQui est tr=C3=A8s= mince, tr= =C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) esas preske egala al unika senco di "t=C3=A9nu"= ; en la mencionita edituro di Larousse (= =C2=ABTr=C3= =A8s fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB). Measupoze, ica esas = la bazala senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la Franca, l'unika quan Bea= ufront e Couturat trovis en la konsultita dicionarii e l'unika quan li = fakte tradukis. Pluse, quale on povas konstatar sub "fin" (p. 248= ) li atribuis a "tenua" anke un del senci di "fin" en l= a Franca, nome, olta di "konsistanta ek mikra partikuli" <= /font>(A: fine, F: fin, G: fein; H: fino= ; I: minuto, fine; R: =D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9), = aplikebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, faruno edc.= =C2=A0 Tamen Dyer e Pesch tradukas tala senco per &quo= t;subtila", quo semblas a me plu logikoza e preferinda: la partikuli y= a esas tenua, ma la substanco konsistanta ek tala partikuli esas subtila, n= e tenua.

Pluse, kande on konsultas l= 'artiklo "=C3=A9pais" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat on t= rovas (p. 218):

=C3=A9pais = [...] (dense: fluide, brouillard) densa.

Or, se nebulo "=C3=A9pais" esas "densa" seg= un Beaufront/Couturat, on expektas ke nebulo "t=C3=A9nu" esos &qu= ot;desdensa" o "nedensa", e ne "tenua".

Kande on konsultas l'artiklo "faible&= quot; en la sama lexiko, on lektas i.a.

=
faible=C2=A0 (adj.)=C2=A0 [...] (voix) ne-sonora. =

Lektinte lo, on expektas ke "g= rosse voix" (regretinde mankanta en la exempli che Couturat/Beaufront)= esos "sonora voco" (ne "grosa voco") e ke lua kontreaj= o esos "ne-sonora voco" (ne "tenua voco").

= Cetere, en la Angla-Ido-lexiko da Dyer on trovas= (p. 343):

= thin : [...] (i= n space) des-densa (air, etc.)

A= nke la Germana-Ido-lexiko da Feder (1920) donas "des-densa" kom u= n del tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn" (p. 177). Cetere, ica artiklo pri = "d=C3=BCnn" (same kam la tota lexiko!) esas certe studiinda, nam = ol prizentas interesiva solvi ed exempli: dina; tenua (=C2=ABtenua-gamba=C2= =BB, =C2=ABtenua intestino=C2=BB); gracila; magra; skarsa (=C2=ABskarsa-bar= ba=C2=BB); fluida; aquatra; dilutita; ne-densa (=C2=ABne-densa biro=C2=BB);= plata (=C2=ABplata ventro=C2=BB).

P= ri "galerio" me konkordas.

<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Nu, me skribis tro multe...

GN
=



2017-01-17 22:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philipp= e Morin gphmorin@gm= ail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=
"tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu esa= s anke Angla.
tenua =3D tenuous =3D=C2=A02. Rare; subtile; not dense; -= - said of fluids.=C2=A0http://www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous

Me anke trovis libri en Google qui uzas "tenuous = voice", ex. Guest of a Sinner=C2=A0da James Wilcox (p. 40):
"They've been phoning me," Una Merton went on in a = tenuous voice, almost a whisper.

Me ne = bone komprenas la Hispana, ma semblas, segun Google, ke "voz tenue&quo= t; ya uzesas... Ka to vere esas nacionala expresuro???
"C= on voz tenue y ojos entornados, Hajji relata su historia."
http://w= ww.unfpa.org/es/node/5897

"Por k= omprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, la Angla od= irg altra linguo..."
Me deskonkordas, nam per sat bona = dicionario kun defini en Ido, ni povus uzar ta figurala senci en Ido e per = Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS.

La problemo, kun tua exem= pli, venas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca-Ido. Se tu uzus la lexiko Ido-Franca= , tu vidus quante vasta la defini esas... ultempe mem sen ula precizigo di = la senco. Do "tenua" signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e)", en o= mna senci.

En la sama maniero, me konkl= uzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke lu signifikas en la Fr= anca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la senco teatral= a, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco:=C2=A0https://io.wikti= onary.org/wiki/galerio

Fine, la exempli d= a de Beaufront esas forsan eroroza, me konkordas. Danko pro savigar la exis= to di "endetala" e "engrosa" da me!

=
<= /blockquote>

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On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 9:29 AM, James Chandle= r idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > >= > Kara Gilles-Philippe > > > Yes, semblas ke vu esas justa: indico ne inde= xo (to esas eroro da > angla-parolanto). > > Do me kredas ke por ica du vor= ti ni havas solvo: > > Subscript - Subindico > Superscript - Superindico > = > Se nulu objecionas, ni povus konservar ica paro. > > > ------------------= ------------ > *From:* linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on > behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto]= < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> > *Sent:* 18 January 2017 14:05 > *To:* L= inguolisto > *Subject:* Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor > > > = > Pos konsultir la Webster di 1913, me nun havas certeso. > > La justa vort= o esas =C2=ABsubindico=C2=BB, nam en 1913 on uzis la vorto =C2=ABsubindex= =C2=BB > (pluralo =C2=ABsubindices=C2=BB) en cienco: > > *(*Math.*) A numbe= r or mark placed opposite the lower part of a letter or > symbol to disting= uish the symbol; thus, a=E2=82=80, b=E2=82=81, c=E2=82=82, x=E2=82=99, have= 0, 1, 2, and n > as subindices.* > > http://www.websters1913.com/words/Sub= index > > La vorto por "index" en Ido esas "indico", ne "indexo" (qua esas = tabelo). > > Por "superscript", me kredas ke "superindexo" maxim koherus e = sequus > logiko maxim bone. > > > --001a11411f5e8bf5cb0546602379 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evidente, me ne objecionas.

=
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 9:29 AM, James Chandler = idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_-2125157473824756665ygrp-text">

<= div id=3D"m_-2125157473824756665divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12= pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" dir=3D"ltr= ">

Kara Gilles-Philippe


Yes, semblas ke vu esas just= a: indico ne indexo (to esas eroro da angla-parolanto).


Do me kredas ke por ica du vorti ni havas solvo:

Subscript - Subindico
Superscript - Superindico
<= div>
Se nulu objecionas, ni povus konservar ica paro.
=


From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com> on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yah= oogroups.com>
Sent: 18 January 2017 14:05
To: Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi = bezonata por VisualEditor
=C2=A0

<= span class=3D"">
Pos konsultir la Webster di 1913, me= nun havas certeso.

La justa vorto esas =C2=ABsubindi= co=C2=BB, nam en 1913 on uzis la vorto =C2=ABsubindex=C2=BB (pluralo =C2=AB= subindices=C2=BB) en cienco:

(Math.) = A number or mark placed opposite the lower part of a letter or symbol to di= stinguish the symbol; thus, a=E2=82=80,=C2=A0b=E2=82=81, c=E2=82=82,=C2=A0x= =E2=82=99, have 0, 1, 2, and n as subindices.

La vorto = por "index" en Ido esas "indico", ne "indexo"= (qua esas tabelo).

Por "superscript"= , me kredas ke "superindexo" maxim koherus e sequus logiko maxim = bone.

=

--001a11411f5e8bf5cb0546602379-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4856 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 25364 invoked by uid 102); 18 Jan 2017 16:09:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m7.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 16:09:20 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 3533 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2017 16:09:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 16:09:20 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.54 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: ESKrsEgWLDuN74mVc0ghpvZuhi3Ir8RmfBg9bhhm3bqBLMi3 Jv3zBBhxMUiyZU_lXeOwIZkNzyVNc0FRjH9axP04YyC7ClvkKiBQ94sy0VLI dbpxNPjwjLWGkj_xYihDhcb2BqBJmkWZBvPaeSpBjqEOA3kj3gX5jKdB7tCT RslCEUBn3IJR8GGT1cVf46FWeiTdSv8qjkyXl4AJHe8k0K.8LHk37kQ5u_.R 8J31.PGOgl2vbLUkG2vS2tDSxvMz61TPkCKP0Otu7Q_ELX6hnC1do7wTaTFx SGyOHFo8IIB2WYwDsBYCVaT6rAb5rgWdoFcU2vOYXvPnKIJiQgkQ9xdPkC5C U5Yg5Q43aCLqvBDI4WrLXS1VH_5CiaMGJ8y9EhbBrWeA4kq9jz4b8odlMvo3 C35iZRaw5xVU.XfnUy69FDTnmbko5x_CUDO_Iwdy7UbTIfYFRsHmvt.HKYIT hBcg.x2eLnvsBvBX_7spAXmJssgVQBy04Fb3UVCg9_x3M7c9MVKY3jENosDb lr5oQjw9E2dHN9UNIq5CNAyBLxqDbOCCCjdqwqSyByzTOVtkqmr7K2G0W5oY MVstKxFxnBKuoLkR0qywugmKJZshKS4S80whTY3S2HBXKY34J.lfvkSJDiO2 MVp63DO6Y8bHFvoZHlvPLGQrUdF5BESnntdm13HdNb30aE6msUqUmT0OCz7R AsWGXQKUzE937G4P8OPcrJ3hwpnjnseSGY7c85H_qojexdPI2NbUSUN9oOai BIdEka6fUlylBGHnfiy6RAYTL8nR6ibT8I8PIHa5GrJjvxQ6faYLY8E9QP5m u9XpUKmP7X5iUJ9scsOt1GCUFBxVL_C9KUyBC95FEZ.zCnJZWZPsaHiLCd.y IyILig.ZQtdwDmcdkKMX1kQ_hs8RCjc_eks3wSQpguqrgIrc9Wt2y2dOt8nN eTcKFA7dAOfQxpcrppg6VB75W8Q9z3UzA86.drubX79NLEzX0JANI7VgU7l. 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Tamen la tradukuro da Donald Broadribb konkordas kun la Angl= a =C2=ABthink voice=C2=BB. 2017-01-18 10:22 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Mori= n : > Certe, segun TLFi, =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB esas antoni= mo di =C2=ABdensa=C2=BB e =C2=ABgrosa=C2=BB: > http://www.cnrtl.fr/antonymi= e/t%C3%A9nu > > Segun TLFi, esas difero inter =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB (gros= a voco) e =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB. > =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB esas voc= o grosa, forta, dum ke =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB esas voco rauka > pro = salivo densa. > > La Angla facas la sama distingo: https://en.oxforddiction= aries.com/ > definition/thick > > Tua exemplo, =C2=ABintestino tenua=C2=BB,= remarkigis da me ke anke la Franca =C2=ABvoix > gr=C3=AAle=C2=BB tradukesa= s a Ido per =C2=ABvoco tenua=C2=BB... > > http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/gr= %C3%AAle > > Donald Broadribb, eminenta membro di AdE, anke uzis =C2=ABmald= ika=C2=BB (tenua, anke > por la intestino) por deskriptar voco en sua tradu= kuro *Mil Na=C5=ADcent Okdek > Kvar* (p. 164): > http://i-espero.info/files= /elibroj/eo%20-%20orwell,% > 20george%20-%201984.pdf > > Pluse: =C2=ABdika = vo=C4=89o=C2=BB en la libro *Du Rakontoj en la linguo internacia > esperant= o: la nova Jaro*, Antoni Grabowski, 1891, p. 18: > https://books.google.ca/= books?id=3Dlte6q3vgFjUC&printsec=3Dfrontcover > > Nu, la eminenta Antoni Gr= abowski tradukis =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB de... la Polona! To > demonstra= s ke =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB e =C2=ABtenua voco=C2=BB ya esas exter DEFIRS. = > > (Aparte, forsan tu havus la litero =C2=ABG=C2=BB en PIV vice =C2=ABGN= =C2=BB se Antoni > Grabowski ne esabus Esperantisto...) > > Nu, se tala Esp= erantisti uzis =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB en la praktikale maxim neutra > konstrukti= ta linguo en la mondo, forsan to ne esas grava. Forsan to *tre* > neimporta= s! > > Tala kompari kun DEFIRS, e mem Esperanto, povus esar senfina! > > = =C2=ABGilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmetaforala uzi tro "nacio= nala", > sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare la vorto "t= enua" o la > Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga vort= o ed irga > linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro.=C2=BB > > Nu, Ido ed Esperan= to havas =C2=ABfine!=C2=BB (D. endlich! E. at last! F. enfin! I. > finalmen= te! S. =C2=A1por fin!), =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB (D. Erdapfel, F. pomme de terre= ) e > =C2=ABridetar=C2=BB (L. subridere, F. sourire, I. sorridere, S. sonre= =C3=ADr), qui > sustenesas ne da logiko ma da DEFIRS. Same pri =C2=ABmarhun= do=C2=BB en Ido (D. > Seehund, E. sea dog), =C2=ABbernaklo-muslo=C2=BB (E. = F. barnacle)... > > Se on bezonus plu kam nur DEFIRS, nu, ni quik reformez = nia linguo... tre > severe. Semblas ke on ja komencis la laboro per =C2=ABt= andem=C2=BB e =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB... Nun > ni quik trovez nova vorti por la = altri! > > En mea opiniono, me judikas plu grava la vorti quin, en Ido, on = uzas kande > lia senco *ja restriktesis*. Exemple, me ja vidis certena Fran= culo uzar > =C2=ABsuperba=C2=BB omnube lu volis tradukar la Franca =C2=ABsu= perbe=C2=BB (belega). Nu! To > esas eroro, nam la senci definita interdikta= s tala uzo. Me ja vidis, tre > ofte, (e certe me ipsa inkluzite) uli uzar = =C2=ABaktiva=C2=BB vice =C2=ABagiva=C2=BB: =C2=ABaktiva > Idisto, aktiva vo= lkano=C2=BB. Nu! To anke esas eroro, nam la senci definita > interdiktas ta= la uzo. O me ja vidis =C2=ABspecifika=C2=BB (teknikala vorto!) vice > =C2= =ABspecigiva=C2=BB. E.c., e.c., e.c.. > > 2017-01-18 6:31 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.c= om>: > >> >> >> Gilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmetaforala uzi = tro "nacionala", >> sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare = la vorto "tenua" o la >> Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis generala e koncern= is irga vorto ed irga >> linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro. Anke en la Port= ugalana on uzas la vorto >> "t=C3=A9nue" ("t=C3=AAnue" en Brazilia) kun mul= ta senci (i.a. anke pri voco e >> vaporo!), do expresuri quala "tenua vapor= o" o "tenua voco" tote ne shokas >> mea linguo-sento. Tamen Ido havas altra= principi e kustumi kam nia lingui >> nacional. Exemple, en omna AFGHIR-lin= gui (ed en preske omna lingui en la >> mondo!) la vorto korespondanta a "ki= rko" signifikas anke "eklezio", ma Ido >> (same kam Esperanto) vortarale di= stingas la du koncepti. Do la temo esas >> plu amplexa e komplikita kam on = povus supozar unesma-regarde. >> >> La fakto ke, en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da= Beaufront/Couturat, on lektas =C2=AB*t=C3=A9nue >> :* tenua=C2=BB (p. 536)= , sen plusa konsideri, sen subsenci, sen exempli, ne >> necese implikas ke = omna senci e subsenci di "t=C3=A9nue" automatale tradukesas >> per "tenua"!= Se on komparas, exemple, en la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri >> "t=C3=A9nu"= (maxim magra!) ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (p. 277), on shokesas dal >> dif= ero ed on darfas questionar su pro quo existas tala difero. Se on >> konsul= tas l'artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trovas multa senci e subsenci, >> = multa uzi figurala, ed anke multa exempli: >> >> http://atilf.atilf.fr/ >> = >> Evidente Beaufront e Couturat ne konsultis TLFi (qua lore ne existis), m= a >> li certe konsultis ula Franca-lingua dicionario (o mem pluri) por komp= ozar >> sua lexiko. Quan (o quin) li konsultis? Nulu savas. Tamen, kande me= apertas >> mea exemplero di ilustrita Larousse (1983) e me lektas lua arti= klo pri >> "t=C3=A9nu", me trovas nur yena defino, sen subsenci, sen exempl= i: =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, >> tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB. Kande me konsultas l'arti= klo pri "gros, grosse" en la sama >> verko, me trovas sat detaloza artiklo,= kontenanta multa subsenci ed >> exempli. Pluse, kelka exempli esas egala a= d olti prizentita en l'artiklo >> "gros, grosse" en la lexiko da Beaufront/= Couturat. Yen la komparo inter >> Larousse (L) e Beaufront/Couturat (B/C): = >> >> un gros arbe (L) >> >> grosse somme (L) >> grosse fi=C3=A8vre (L) >> = gros drap (L, B/C) >> de gros souliers (L) >> du gros rouge (L) >> gros com= mer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gociant (B/C), marchand de gros (B/C) >> gros= se mer (L, B/C) >> grosse voix (L) >> grosse viande (B/C) >> gros temps (B/= C) >> gros mots (B/C) >> gros joueur (B/C) >> gros de six mois (B/C) >> en = gros (L, B/C), tout en gros (B/C) >> un gros (B/C) >> le gros de (B/C) >> a= cheter en gros (L) >> avoir le c=C5=93ur gros (L, B/C) >> >> avoir les yeux= gros de larmes (L) >> faire les gros yeux (L) >> >> gagner gros (L) >> >> = =C3=A9crire gros (L, B/C) >> >> en avoir gros sur le c=C5=93ur (B/C) >> >> = commerce en gros (B/C) >> >> rapporter gros (B/C) >> >> il ya gros =C3=A0 p= arier que (B/C) >> fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C) >> >> On povas konstatar ke,= en ica artiklo, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat >> kontenas plu multa exem= pli kam Larousse (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke >> lia lexiko esas tre ko= mpetente kompozita, quankam li certe ne disponis tam >> multa moyeni kam la= profesionala esquado qua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, >> se li skribis tan= te magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga >> nesorgemeso o = manko di lexikografiala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to >> konsequas nur de = ke anke la Franca-lingua dicionarii quin li konsultis >> prizentis (same ka= m Larousse) tre magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la >> unesma senc= o di "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi (=C2=ABQui est tr=C3=A8s mince, tr=C3=A8s fin=C2= =BB) esas >> preske egala al unika senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la mencionita ed= ituro di Larousse (=C2=ABTr=C3=A8s >> fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB). Measupoz= e, ica esas la bazala senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la >> Franca, l'unika quan Be= aufront e Couturat trovis en la konsultita >> dicionarii e l'unika quan li = fakte tradukis. Pluse, quale on povas >> konstatar sub "fin" (p. 248) li at= ribuis a "tenua" anke un del senci di >> "fin" en la Franca, nome, olta di = "konsistanta ek mikra partikuli" (A: >> *fine*, F: *fin*, G: *fein*; H: *fi= no*; I: *minuto*,* fine*; R: =D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9), >> apli= kebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, faruno edc. Tamen Dyer e >> Pesch tr= adukas tala senco per "subtila", quo semblas a me plu logikoza e >> preferi= nda: la partikuli ya esas tenua, ma la substanco konsistanta ek tala >> par= tikuli esas subtila, ne tenua. >> >> Pluse, kande on konsultas l'artiklo "= =C3=A9pais" en la lexiko da >> Beaufront/Couturat on trovas (p. 218): >> >>= *=C3=A9pais* [...] (*dense: fluide, brouillard*) densa. >> >> Or, se nebul= o "=C3=A9pais" esas "densa" segun Beaufront/Couturat, on expektas >> ke neb= ulo "t=C3=A9nu" esos "desdensa" o "nedensa", e ne "tenua". >> >> Kande on k= onsultas l'artiklo "faible" en la sama lexiko, on lektas i.a. >> >> *faible= * (*adj.*) [...] (*voix*) ne-sonora. >> >> Lektinte lo, on expektas ke "g= rosse voix" (regretinde mankanta en la >> exempli che Couturat/Beaufront) e= sos "sonora voco" (ne "grosa voco") e ke >> lua kontreajo esos "ne-sonora v= oco" (ne "tenua voco"). >> >> Cetere, en la Angla-Ido-lexiko da Dyer on tro= vas (p. 343): >> >> *thin :* [...] (*in space*) des-densa (air, etc.) >> >>= Anke la Germana-Ido-lexiko da Feder (1920) donas "des-densa" kom un del >>= tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn" (p. 177). Cetere, ica artiklo pri "d=C3=BCnn" (sa= me kam la >> tota lexiko!) esas certe studiinda, nam ol prizentas interesiv= a solvi ed >> exempli: dina; tenua (=C2=ABtenua-gamba=C2=BB, =C2=ABtenua in= testino=C2=BB); gracila; magra; >> skarsa (=C2=ABskarsa-barba=C2=BB); fluid= a; aquatra; dilutita; ne-densa (=C2=ABne-densa >> biro=C2=BB); plata (=C2= =ABplata ventro=C2=BB). >> >> Pri "galerio" me konkordas. >> >> Nu, me skri= bis tro multe... >> >> GN >> >> >> >> 2017-01-17 22:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phi= lippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> "tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu esas anke Angla. >>>= tenua =3D tenuous =3D 2. Rare; subtile; not dense; -- said of fluids. >>> = http://www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous >>> >>> Me anke trovis libri en G= oogle qui uzas "tenuous voice", ex. *Guest of >>> a Sinner* da James Wilcox= (p. 40): >>> *"They've been phoning me," Una Merton went on in a tenuous v= oice, >>> almost a whisper.* >>> >>> Me ne bone komprenas la Hispana, ma se= mblas, segun Google, ke "voz >>> tenue" ya uzesas... Ka to vere esas nacion= ala expresuro??? >>> *"Con voz tenue y ojos entornados, Hajji relata su his= toria."* >>> http://www.unfpa.org/es/node/5897 >>> >>> "Por komprenar Ido, = on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, la >>> Angla od irg altra= linguo..." >>> Me deskonkordas, nam per sat bona dicionario kun defini en = Ido, ni povus >>> uzar ta figurala senci en Ido e per Ido, sen bezonar DEFI= RS. >>> >>> La problemo, kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca= -Ido. Se >>> tu uzus la lexiko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quante vasta la defini = esas... >>> ultempe mem sen ula precizigo di la senco. Do "tenua" signifika= s "t=C3=A9nu(e)", *en >>> omna senci.* >>> >>> En la sama maniero, me konkl= uzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke >>> lu signifikas en la Franca "= galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la >>> senco teatrala, quan Pesc= h mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco: >>> https://io.wiktionary.o= rg/wiki/galerio >>> >>> Fine, la exempli da de Beaufront esas forsan eroroz= a, me konkordas. >>> Danko pro savigar la existo di "endetala" e "engrosa" = da me! >>> >>> >> >> > > --f403045ea286507b5f054660a34e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, me jus rilektis la exemplo da Antoni Grabowski, e me n= e plus esas certa, ka lua "dika" signifikas "grosa"... = o "rauka", do tale "dika" signifikus "=C3=A9pais&q= uot;.

Tamen la tradukuro da Donald Broadribb konkordas k= un la Angla =C2=ABthink voice=C2=BB.
=
2017-01-18 10:22 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe M= orin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Certe, segun TLFi, =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB esas anto= nimo di =C2=ABdensa=C2=BB e =C2=ABgrosa=C2=BB:

Segun TLFi, esas dif= ero inter =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB (grosa voco) e =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2= =BB. =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB esas voco grosa, forta, dum ke =C2=ABvoix =C3= =A9paisse=C2=BB esas voco rauka pro salivo densa.

= La Angla facas la sama distingo:=C2=A0https://en.oxforddictionar= ies.com/definition/thick

Tua exemplo, =C2= =ABintestino tenua=C2=BB, remarkigis da me ke anke la Franca =C2=ABvoix gr= =C3=AAle=C2=BB tradukesas a Ido per =C2=ABvoco tenua=C2=BB...

=

Donald Broadribb, eminenta membro di AdE, anke uzis =C2= =ABmaldika=C2=BB (tenua, anke por la intestino) por deskriptar voco en sua = tradukuro Mil Na=C5=ADcent Okdek Kvar (p. 164):

Pluse: =C2= =ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB en la libro=C2=A0Du Rakontoj en la linguo intern= acia esperanto: la nova Jaro, Antoni Grabowski, 1891, p. 18:

Nu, = la eminenta Antoni Grabowski tradukis =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB de... la P= olona! To demonstras ke =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB e =C2=ABtenua voco=C2=BB ya = esas exter DEFIRS.

(Aparte, forsan tu havus la lit= ero =C2=ABG=C2=BB en PIV vice =C2=ABGN=C2=BB se Antoni Grabowski ne esabus = Esperantisto...)

Nu, se tala Esperantisti uzis =C2= =ABtenua=C2=BB en la praktikale maxim neutra konstruktita linguo en la mond= o, forsan to ne esas grava. Forsan to tre neimportas!

=
Tala kompari kun DEFIRS, e mem Esperanto, povus esar senfina!

=C2=ABGilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABme= taforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me n= e vizis partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la Franca linguo. Mea rema= rko esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga linguo, mem exter la AFGHI= R-kadro.=C2=BB

Nu, Ido ed Esperanto havas =C2=ABfine!= =C2=BB (D. endlich!=C2=A0E. at last! F. enfin! I. finalmente! S. =C2=A1por = fin!), =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB (D. Erdapfel, F. pomme de terre) e =C2=ABridetar= =C2=BB (L. subridere, F. sourire, I. sorridere, S. sonre=C3=ADr), qui suste= nesas ne da logiko ma da DEFIRS. Same pri =C2=ABmarhundo=C2=BB en Ido (D. S= eehund, E. sea dog), =C2=ABbernaklo-muslo=C2=BB (E. F. barnacle)...
Se on bezonus plu kam nur DEFIRS, nu, ni quik reformez nia ling= uo... tre severe. Semblas ke on ja komencis la laboro per =C2=ABtandem=C2= =BB e =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB... Nun ni quik trovez nova vorti por la altri!

En mea opiniono, me judikas plu grava la vorti quin, = en Ido, on uzas kande lia senco ja restriktesis. Exemple, me ja vidi= s certena Franculo uzar =C2=ABsuperba=C2=BB omnube lu volis tradukar la Fra= nca =C2=ABsuperbe=C2=BB (belega). Nu! To esas eroro, nam la senci definita = interdiktas tala uzo. Me ja vidis, tre ofte, (e certe me ipsa inkluzite) ul= i uzar =C2=ABaktiva=C2=BB vice =C2=ABagiva=C2=BB: =C2=ABaktiva Idisto, akti= va volkano=C2=BB. Nu! To anke esas eroro, nam la senci definita interdiktas= tala uzo. O me ja vidis =C2=ABspecifika=C2=BB (teknikala vorto!) vice =C2= =ABspecigiva=C2=BB. E.c., e.c., e.c..

201= 7-01-18 6:31 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Gilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri = =C2=ABmetaforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaciona susteno=C2= =BB me ne vizis partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la Franca linguo. = Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga linguo, mem exter = la AFGHIR-kadro. Anke en la Portugalana on uzas la vorto "t=C3=A9nue&q= uot; ("t=C3=AAnue" en Brazilia) kun multa senci (i.a. anke pri vo= co e vaporo!), do expresuri quala "tenua vaporo" o "tenua vo= co" tote ne shokas mea linguo-sento. Tamen Ido havas altra principi e = kustumi kam nia lingui nacional. Exemple, en omna AFGHIR-lingui (ed en pres= ke omna lingui en la mondo!) la vorto korespondanta a "kirko" sig= nifikas anke "eklezio", ma Ido (same kam Esperanto) vortarale dis= tingas la du koncepti. Do la temo esas plu amplexa e komplikita kam on povu= s supozar unesma-regarde.

La fakto ke, en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da B= eaufront/Couturat, on lektas =C2=ABt=C3=A9nue : tenua=C2=BB (p. 536)= , sen plusa konsideri, sen subsenci, sen exempli, ne necese implikas ke omn= a senci e subsenci di "t=C3=A9nue" automatale tradukesas per &quo= t;tenua"! Se on komparas, exemple, en la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri = "t=C3=A9nu" (maxim magra!) ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (= p. 277), on shokesas dal difero ed on darfas questionar su pro quo existas = tala difero. Se on konsultas l'artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLF= i on trovas multa senci e subsenci, multa uzi figurala, ed anke multa exemp= li:=C2=A0

http://atilf.atilf.fr/

Evidente Bea= ufront e Couturat ne konsultis TLFi (qua lore ne existis), ma li certe kons= ultis ula Franca-lingua dicionario (o mem pluri) por kompozar sua lexiko. Q= uan (o quin) li konsultis? Nulu savas. Tamen, kande me apertas mea exempler= o di ilustrita Larousse (1983) e me lektas lua artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu&= quot;, me trovas nur yena defino, sen subsenci, sen exempli: =C2=ABTr=C3=A8= s fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB. Kande me konsultas l'artiklo pri "gr= os, grosse" en la sama verko, me trovas sat detaloza artiklo, kontenan= ta multa subsenci ed exempli. Pluse, kelka exempli esas egala ad olti prize= ntita en l'artiklo "gros, grosse" en la lexiko da Beaufront/C= outurat. Yen la komparo inter Larousse (L) e Beaufront/Couturat (B/C):
<= br>

un gros arbe (L)

grosse somme= (L)
grosse fi=C3=A8vre (L)
gros drap (L, B/C)
de gros souliers= (L)
du gros rouge (L)
gros commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gocian= t (B/C), marchand de gros (B/C)
grosse mer (L, B/C)
grosse voix (L)=
grosse viande (B/C)
gros temps (B/C)
gros mots (B/C)
gros = joueur (B/C)
gros de six mois (B/C)
en gros (L, B/C), tout en gros = (B/C)
un gros (B/C)
le gros de (B/C)
acheter en gros (L)
av= oir le c=C5=93ur gros (L, B/C)

avoir les yeux gros de larm= es (L)
faire les gros yeux=C2=A0(L)

gagner gros (L)

= =C3=A9crire gros (L, B/C)

en avoir gros sur= le c=C5=93ur (B/C)

commerce en gros (B/C)=

rapporter gros (B/C)

il ya gros =C3=A0 parier que (B/= C)

fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C)

<= /span>On povas konsta= tar ke, en ica artiklo, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat kontenas plu multa = exempli kam Larousse (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke lia lexiko esas tre k= ompetente kompozita, quankam li certe ne disponis tam multa moyeni kam la p= rofesionala esquado qua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, se li skribis tante ma= gra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga nesorgemeso = o manko di lexikografiala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to konsequas nur de k= e anke la Franca-lingua dicionarii quin li konsultis prizentis (same kam La= rousse) tre magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la unesma s= enco di "t=C3=A9nu" en = TLFi (=C2=AB<= /span><= font size=3D"4">Qui est tr=C3=A8s mince, tr=C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) esas preske egala al un= ika senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la mencionita edituro di Larousse (= =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB= ). Measupoze, ica esas la bazala senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en l= a Franca, l'unika quan Beaufront e Couturat trovis en la konsultita dic= ionarii e l'unika quan li fakte tradukis. Pluse, quale on povas konstat= ar sub "fin" (p. 248) li atribuis a "tenua" anke un del= senci di "fin" en la Franca, nome, olta di "konsistanta ek = mikra partikuli" <= font size=3D"4">(A: fine, F: fin= , G: fein; H: fino; I: minuto, fine; R: =D0=BC= =D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9), aplikebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, = faruno edc.=C2=A0 Tamen Dyer e Pe= sch tradukas tala senco per "subtila", quo semblas a me plu logik= oza e preferinda: la partikuli ya esas tenua, ma la substanco konsistanta e= k tala partikuli esas subtila, ne tenua.

GN



2017-01-17 22:47 GM= T+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0=
=
"tenua vaporo" ne esas nacion= ala nam lu esas anke Angla.
tenua =3D tenuous =3D=C2=A02. Rare; subtile= ; not dense; -- said of fluids.=C2=A0http://www.websters1913.com/words/Te= nuous

Me anke trovis libri en Google qui uzas = "tenuous voice", ex. Guest of a Sinner=C2=A0da James Wilco= x (p. 40):
"They've been phoning me," Una Merton= went on in a tenuous voice, almost a whisper.

Me ne bone komprenas la Hispana, ma semblas, segun Google, ke "= ;voz tenue" ya uzesas... Ka to vere esas nacionala expresuro???
<= div>"Con voz tenue y ojos entornados, Hajji relata su historia.&quo= t;

"Por komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la German= a, la Angla od irg altra linguo..."
Me deskonkordas, nam= per sat bona dicionario kun defini en Ido, ni povus uzar ta figurala senci= en Ido e per Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS.

La problemo= , kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca-Ido. Se tu uzus la lex= iko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quante vasta la defini esas... ultempe mem sen ula= precizigo di la senco. Do "tenua" signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e)&= quot;, en omna senci.

En la sama man= iero, me konkluzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke lu signi= fikas en la Franca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la= senco teatrala, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco:= =C2=A0= https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/galerio

Fi= ne, la exempli da de Beaufront esas forsan eroroza, me konkordas. Danko pro= savigar la existo di "endetala" e "engrosa" da me!


=
=


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Kara samideani,
Ula amiko demandis a me, pro quo Ido h= avas =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB vice uzar =C2=ABgenit-into=C2=BB.

<= /div>
Lu judikas ke se =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB ofras nur plu bona internac= ioneso, ma lu esas sinonimo di =C2=ABgenit-into=C2=BB, do =C2=ABgenitoro=C2= =BB esas neutila troa sinonimo (kun simila etimologio).

Kad ulu savas la motivo di ta adopto?

Kun ko= rdiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
--001a11411c7644a51b054660be6e-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4858 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 47691 invoked by uid 102); 18 Jan 2017 17:22:41 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 17:22:41 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 16850 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2017 17:22:41 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 17:22:41 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: MD9sa3EWLDvbgrdofVr6kFjroSGZBucaCWt86VLMbGd7.wEp z1BafE4oaE2iaa841aWoODCDN_vbKeop18uHcBn112Ilfsy4U.0KFw.S.Tqk SN6c7wuqSAkXqovQ_HVWwlONGudBZpDwrQitbjvYAgviCwxoEf3HH5wg0ucF ahmPsdAaP14__dLU2zC9ltpd.Yi4osgwssMUzxOCCKyT5sHp_jhSvl3FaY1D r0qj80uriX9UiOz0_OP16CfafUqCHuM3TTF5sWnGlX8pcgu5JdSrfcE6RUNF Oau29fAF3gopPe.VInGg0owvLJ9sCkuBIRir4EbMNQb9n3ojpOX.1Ja80mUW O3ovC6GfCrE5DoAu9XSeVqi7ZX4vMalNHPNW6SNrqBLTDr6cz3eishpF5yhC xXBJf7e2dveoPmqacv09CJnjNsHUfX2y.Sef0Gq2o9Bh2u0_5W6GxWhHgKln FeyjJWobDKS40kf0Mz4py8fnuTYxn74pvwpcyZjhGrq4flmfcq3yxLL6hlDR vhdfBh0sn_huiNbYMoVFe3H6l2gH_0fmqVP7iyieTajxk8ZlWi9.su6E9_qa ZF2CtvbwA7mfFXiaUznktrTaL_142odCYhuxlapvH008MT6_KKKbNwfpV8ce X2OTBesuFxTgsuVK.9GWLb6QJsop7ricm0Wy8oXWTFyzReqUqKd4iwlFnHyn j3afZ4t3yiN1QVe.2ZtrYMd_Y7UALlE5wXHqFgYlCxyKr7SlkK5HMeWWyv.L nNE2aqsGAviQuWTNE8s8CDRKZdqTJb99o9aIDhwOUZlOb6TRlYSTJME1I21Y rlsMofEQc6uxOQlVKLPHHpB0nXPC8JYzkfSG17P0YZV69qF7.N09kFc.wFq4 Vn5meoaDsvQmRBXBuhZWlKXu_lSJXVQwXxujI7Of.JwnNvklMACUWsJWILjw N.dGslJUtmVGl65OEwsLwAuAPNpbFod3ryj2b8ciEp_rTNT8jFkYv6aZXNid vbxx.evdx93ahfclD16WNZfpzpzFhh1MkA5E.GcCd7xBEL.DnSSWXuT4Khb4 lgTVSMweoujUj33SDKmAxeWRPjGTmY0LZT_O28N4 Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout04.plus.net) (212.159.14.19) by mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:22:35 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([80.189.103.153]) by avasout04 with smtp id ZtNY1u0043JbLC001tNacY; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:22:34 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Groywg9C c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=symCNU+MJHhKGk1Qu/9u0Q==:117 a=symCNU+MJHhKGk1Qu/9u0Q==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=6fq1mXaZDpnmMr96kDEA:9 a=WFOksmd7PGyNmMqx:21 a=guR4A5VUhlrpKe_q:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:22:33 GMT Message-ID: <2017118172233.829703@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[linguo]_=C2=ABGenitoro=C2=BB?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C." Me ne savas la motivo, ma supozeble esas anke posibla dicar ke la vorti matro, patro e filio ne esas necesa, se matro esas genitintino, patro esas genitintulo, e filio esas genituro. Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 11:16:46 -0500: Kara samideani, Ula amiko demandis a me, pro quo Ido havas «genitoro» vice uzar «genit-into». Lu judikas ke se «genitoro» ofras nur plu bona internacioneso, ma lu esas sinonimo di «genit-into», do «genitoro» esas neutila troa sinonimo (kun simila etimologio). Kad ulu savas la motivo di ta adopto? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4859 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 8003 invoked by uid 102); 18 Jan 2017 17:26:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m8.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 17:26:10 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 19279 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2017 17:26:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 17:26:10 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: X.wDHJMWLDstkgszan0G4eMf0FnbeQz3PW5PSURTiW1K7ZB4 bnZDmhPhCQyfxy4E2Z8vbtiq29XPEnDP.7qdV9csIG131UZlspWz.lsUdVk3 YXnrGRgSG9MGyz6cTzlSrE8BUeyC2xc8O5JYVcOoCMbL2VDvGit7OC.S9YRe qTuB0qAUGm6rL8tLokWqWNlOmgKKyWqGXLR3voAVesWehmBsAFZzjjZmAxPq rPnhws3ato8uUNIMZBhqIdNGcYEzM1RCelEyT3hys8xhxlKN6nIpPn5mQ4hR vsXw4F7etJ92nZJ_J8nYKScmtm46xB2G89bmMRhL_ako_G78kbR9Q2SWN_A1 JzoY.V8l0d.NhiaLudQKAwyh7WADGL5oW7ZrWNpz8PSeLAmsErXWx.91JPzQ Yds3jpVTnwrgL2duUL9Q7.lxnDqUpdAsd7CEQRqu6M9D_iGTXp5YeryjMTcA WZvVkcixqf2VCEgcS3SK5lRIli3kebJpePtC6q_Gnp9HOXkTY9AZBtPGgBea 73spBkqv.iKXpLNb5btU5Fzy9WbYzdJL6bP6C788w8d2jIBX_69rQdrFvfIl GaaQ7.9JMPL_4zFgoc1ShzfeXnJ.H2qXjLn49sIeV9EZ8E7PbLS0xspTOfmV y8qVi7QGTBdSd0PKWZeBoW7ntmtx1ddtedGVU1YLV3NYDHzZ6s83czfffdWY m2tqsKsqtxBnQwNSL_zZRXTrfgSi6lWK25BpUgnGE24eo1niWstbUQ.mu0M4 mwZCtw7PgWuCDkvHXo3MU8JPkSl8Eti92R5Xg6MwHNLZb.YSbWonMBs52pJA 6vDLhWv8vvo3n.TCDIeiYuFwwRrgQHe6lBMV_WJv3U0a5HRqZeo.ePj1_TRG 6tAE.e0GZ6dEPytp_HWuAsIWWy02osw06QGdJNVXxYNqBV4QocAefN5fGa48 _dTIKbsEP.ARRc00f9RN9SjGwNJKCmtxkxoqU4953X1OK0K_VxPJiXGMGo.7 qMpR_k_GSsNOIWe.bYkduq8QQXWp1PB5PdmFYo.TPal9uAni4xd9X9ipwHaz FmnabPjTTSLpXEY1ZHMW0J.vlb0UG1kSgbM7dLED5j4bpO3GAwh50HlthTjO ZmOSvUCD4MG9fcrWObPOYLhAbxt1iZeMSaq70a7VCS6j6KuUX8mXpR6B0j7o pBbcC7U7hTaNAlR10_yIYeN09rOqsq2tEPrFTfDaN2zaNAA9Ae9FkYhw Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout04.plus.net) (212.159.14.19) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:26:09 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([80.189.103.153]) by avasout04 with smtp id ZtS71u0043JbLC001tS8lY; Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:26:08 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Groywg9C c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=symCNU+MJHhKGk1Qu/9u0Q==:117 a=symCNU+MJHhKGk1Qu/9u0Q==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=6mnm7gIjAAAA:8 a=qV0mfD4mAAAA:8 a=1Qhj-OTkAAAA:8 a=MGXqgsB2DtMrVBAE1QgA:9 a=n4SFxakviO8DQmam:21 a=rIVlpHQSZQMPD0FJ:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 a=KfCPT_WOMwHMG_Iid1qq:22 a=mnVZ7iNJyew7AB3q5ROZ:22 a=cq4hp0u9VdKmxERt5c5W:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2017 17:26:07 GMT Message-ID: <201711817267.317001@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [linguo] "swichar' e "komutar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C." Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"...' Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata por startar ed anke por haltigar. Ne suficas dicar "startilo" o "haltigilo". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti povas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por startar o haltigar ol. Quale me ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo diferas de swichilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala aparato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne por startar o haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado. Mem se ula linguo o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun swichilo, tala neklareso esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona. Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:31:26 -0500: Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento") kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "komutar" e "interruptar". Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Franca "commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar". La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transitiva. Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"... 2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] : Kara Gilles-Philippe, Vu skribis: Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"): startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento. La defino di "acendar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) produktar flami, mem nur mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: "to inflame (the passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro. Extensar la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swichilo nur komencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar fairo. On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar la problemo. Kordiale, Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500: Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" ed "extingar". "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!" La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne? "Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono." Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me konsideras la situeso tote absurda. La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo). Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch. Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"? Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"? Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500: Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo? Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar". Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926? Gilles-Philippe From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4860 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 16875 invoked by uid 102); 18 Jan 2017 18:01:21 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m10.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 18:01:21 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 25367 invoked from network); 18 Jan 2017 18:01:21 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 Jan 2017 18:01:21 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.52 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: MXkU7rwWLDtp.hIeqiSB7bMLNFy4.1eltE6_pf320fXxNilk EH5x.HWOUrwqrcDB.Ehf82Q6PjJ4EckSVhgF_q_izImoFV7YHqTxa5o7j5XY dA33NVdD3yoVkgrLQ2xjWYUJOLNUjczPDsQHLEaxlTLLbpy0TDo.GOOsxD6t xwYwZPFBze1LhancAKKYG7p3mhVkEwqNeqMxHMz7VL6YEX96SETvHrziZiUg 11frTLVn0FEFC0vbwcQ9xZ.p_tRSlNDp.Fn73TZfgO4IaELpMhTy3sPY9gyR ZemLtE9.k.x6BBzr6.fA_C4Jx3sumKdt4HYYOnaA5Bqr.CoDWV226aNUdAe6 zMwwEpk2CtCk95roFsTkE6GCkfsZtn7rPIVq8mKfE8hh9ojzFw4cAdMDQrTs NiI6atgQUnW8SmDG9M1w2w6_uzI1UlXsSiN5AEmt2ddNjN0nXDMRvaTYILB. 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Me s= kribis =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, quale definita che = Dyer... 2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolis= to] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino ips= a solvas vua propra problemo: vice > "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "s= tartar" e "haltigar"...' > > Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata por star= tar ed anke por haltigar. Ne > suficas dicar "startilo" o "haltigilo". Plus= e, swichilo en ula cirkuiti > povas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo di elekt= ro-fluo, ne nur simple por > startar o haltigar ol. > > Quale me ja mencion= is, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo diferas > de swichilo. Norma= le homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala > aparato, dum ke komutil= o chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne > por startar o haltigar= la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado. > > Mem se ula linguo o lingui k= onfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun > swichilo, tala neklareso esa= s desdezirinda por linguo internaciona. > > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe M= orin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 > 18:31:26 -0500: = > Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o haltigar kurento por = > funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento"= ) > kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "komutar"= e > "interruptar". Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la = > Franca "commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar". > >= La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transitiva. > > Tamen, vua defino ipsa so= lvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e > "extingar", simple uzez "start= ar" e "haltigar"... > > 2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.m= e.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara Gilles-Phil= ippe, > > Vu skribis: > Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "ensw= ichar" esus "pozar > (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la def= ino quan on donis a > "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-f= luo, di la filo-reto". > Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En= elektriko, interruptar > elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam = chanjar lua direciono. > > Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "sw= ichar". (Parenteze, LNV > falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-tran= sitiva.) Por me, la senco > di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto = "switch"): startar o > haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato,= o chanjar la direciono > (voyo) di kurento. > > La defino di "acendar" da = Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) > produktar flami, mem nur mikra. = (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: > "to inflame (the passions)" - = acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke > acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas u= tensilo por acendar exemple sigaro. > > Extensar la senco di "acendar" por = inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus > "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di sw= ichilo nur komencas o cesas > funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kaz= o la kurento, se ol esas tro > forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komenca= r fairo. > > On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo= por > funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto= > precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solva= r > la problemo. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmor= in@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 > 13:58:15 -0500: > > Nu, on = ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" > ed "ex= tingar". > "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per d= u klaki? > Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!" > > La originala senco restrikt= esis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on > transpozis la senco ad elektrala = lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti > ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne= ? > "Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la > tele= viziono." > > Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro q= uo me > konsideras la situeso tote absurda. > > La Angla "switch" tradukesa= s a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur > (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-= rupt-ilo). > Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante l= ogiko. Or, > pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la no= mo switch. > > Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selek= tus > "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam > "int= erruptilo"? > > Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" e= sus "pozar > (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan= on donis a > "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di = la filo-reto". > Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektri= ko, interruptar > elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar = lua direciono. > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.= me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > > Kande on en-= swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke > la elektro = povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on > "forprenas" o= l ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. > Quale plu bo= ne on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"? > Robert C. > > Gilles-= Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 > 16:05:= 32 -0500: > Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On= "swichas" > ulo en od ek quo? > > Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? > > 2017-01-= 16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] > : > > Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna I= do, "swichar" esas uzata > precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on= ) ed "ekswichar" (to turn > off). > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswic= har#Ido > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido > > 2017-01-16 0:39 = GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > > Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko= di Nova Vorti, e pos > analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me k= onkluzas ke "swichar" > esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar",= sive admaxime tota > sinonimo di "komutar". > > Kad on havas informo pri l= ua adopto en 1926? > > Gilles-Philippe > > > --001a113f8fa44019580546621667 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, me nultempe skribis =C2=ABstartilo=C2=BB nek =C2=ABhal= igilo=C2=BB! Me skribis =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, qu= ale definita che Dyer...

2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] &= lt;linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= u>
=C2=A0

Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino ips= a solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar&quo= t;, simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"...'

= Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata por startar ed anke por haltigar. Ne= suficas dicar "startilo" o "haltigilo". Pluse, swichil= o en ula cirkuiti povas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne = nur simple por startar o haltigar ol.

Quale me ja mencionis, en ge= neratoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo diferas de swichilo. Normale homo uza= s swichilo por startar o haltigar tala aparato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la = elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne por startar o haltigar la aparato ma = por helpar olua funcionado.

Mem se ula linguo o lingui konfundas k= omutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun swichilo, tala neklareso esas desdezirin= da por linguo internaciona.

Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.c= om [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:31:26 -0500:

Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o halti= gar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voy= o) di kurento") kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar vua "= swichar" kun "komutar" e "interruptar". Ma nuntemp= e me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Franca "commuter" e = la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar&qu= ot;.

La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transitiva.
Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar&qu= ot; e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltiga= r"...

2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguo= listo] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


Kara Gilles-Philippe= ,

Vu skribis:
Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di &= quot;enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or= to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "c= hanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la = chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo = tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.

Tamen, = me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV = falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco = di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"= ): startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar= la direciono (voyo) di kurento.

La defino di "acendar" = da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) produktar flami, mem nur m= ikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: "to inflame (the= passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke acendilo esas &quo= t;lighter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro.

Ext= ensar la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar" ko= nfundus "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swichil= o nur komencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kazo la ku= rento, se ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar fairo.<= br>
On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por= funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto preci= pua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar la pro= blemo.

Kordiale,
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500:

Nu, on ja tradu= kabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "= acendar" ed "extingar".
"Extingez la lumi, me preg= as. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema soc= io!"

La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo= , ma se on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar= la vorti ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne?
"Ho ve! La radio info= rmas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono."

Ma = forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me k= onsideras la situeso tote absurda.

La Angla "switch" tra= dukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur (in= ter-rupt-ilo).
Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur seq= uante logiko. Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di = la nomo switch.

Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch&qu= ot; funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "ko= mutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"?

Per vua = exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "poza= r (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on do= nis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fl= uo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? = En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam = chanjar lua direciono.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Rober= t C.' ido@avenue.= me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Kande= on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale= ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on = "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas = Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "= switch off"?
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguo= listo] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500:
Nu, me ne komprenas la logi= ko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas"= ; ulo en od ek quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?

2017-01-1= 6 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.co= m>:

Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swi= char" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to tu= rn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).

https://en.wiktiona= ry.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/= ekswichar#Ido

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Pos analizir la d= efino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la = defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar&= quot; esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive ad= maxime tota sinonimo di "komutar".

Kad on havas informo = pri lua adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe


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Ka do ni bezona= s adoptar vorti tal quala *redaktoro, *vendoro, e.c., nur pro ke la derivaj= i ne satisfacas nia kaprici pri DEFIRS? 2017-01-18 12:22 GMT-05:00 'Robert= C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > = Me ne savas la motivo, ma supozeble esas anke posibla dicar ke la vorti > m= atro, patro e filio ne esas necesa, se matro esas genitintino, patro esas >= genitintulo, e filio esas genituro. > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 > 11:16:46 -0500: > Kar= a samideani, > Ula amiko demandis a me, pro quo Ido havas =C2=ABgenitoro=C2= =BB vice uzar > =C2=ABgenit-into=C2=BB. > > Lu judikas ke se =C2=ABgenitoro= =C2=BB ofras nur plu bona internacioneso, ma lu esas > sinonimo di =C2=ABge= nit-into=C2=BB, do =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB esas neutila troa sinonimo (kun > s= imila etimologio). > > Kad ulu savas la motivo di ta adopto? > > Kun kordia= la saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > --94eb2c1cb94ab8af1c054662699e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, vua kompari semblas ridinda, nam =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB = havas nur un=C2=A0litero mine kam =C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB... e la sama= nombro de silabi.

=C2=ABgenitintino=C2=BB 11 literi,=C2= =A0=C2=ABmatro=C2=BB 5 literi (45%); 5 silabi, 2 silabi (40%)
=C2= =ABgenitintulo=C2=BB 11 literi, =C2=ABpatro=C2=BB 5 literi (45%); 5 silabi,= 2 silabi (40%)
=C2=ABgenituro=C2=BB 8 literi, =C2=ABfilio=C2=BB = 5 literi (63%); 4 silabi, 2 silabi (50%)
=C2=ABgeniturulo=C2=BB 1= 0 literi, =C2=ABfiliulo=C2=BB 7 literi (70%); 5 silabi, 3 silabi (60%)
=C2=ABgeniturino=C2=BB 10 literi, =C2=ABfiliino=C2=BB 7 literi (70%);= 5 silabi, 4 silabi (80%)
=C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB 9 literi, =C2=ABg= enitoro=C2=BB 8 literi (89%); 4 silabi, 4 silabi (100%)
=

Inverse, dicar ke =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB esas plu bona ka= m =C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB nur pro ke =C2=ABpatro=C2=BB esas plu bona kam =C2= =ABgenitintulo=C2=BB esas quaza sofismo. Ka do ni bezonas adoptar vorti tal= quala *redaktoro, *vendoro, e.c., nur pro ke la derivaji ne satisfacas nia= kaprici pri DEFIRS?

2017-01-18 12:22 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Me ne savas la motivo, ma sup= ozeble esas anke posibla dicar ke la vorti matro, patro e filio ne esas nec= esa, se matro esas genitintino, patro esas genitintulo, e filio esas genitu= ro.
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 1= 8 Jan 2017 11:16:46 -0500:

Kara samideani,<= br> Ula amiko demandis a me, pro quo Ido havas =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB vice uz= ar =C2=ABgenit-into=C2=BB.

Lu judikas ke se =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB o= fras nur plu bona internacioneso, ma lu esas sinonimo di =C2=ABgenit-into= =C2=BB, do =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB esas neutila troa sinonimo (kun simila etim= ologio).

Kad ulu savas la motivo di ta adopto?

Kun kordia= la saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

=
=

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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 13:09:04 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroAACxa7gAAaF4CAAAKaT4AAFBAAgAAShYCAABQWw4AABRAAgAK1WMw= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 13:09:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:40EE8D5C46E901CDF12438B2B88AB8585239D92237F20F2C74A48D0FA2D21E46;UpperCasedChecksum:42C9EF5D17D0DC052812AF2E95232F3AC7227432A42C5DB251B92A937C59A144;SizeAsReceived:8760;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [Lghthe6UpBVfeIzqNJ7VAY9xEHHIoNZj] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;DB5EUR03HT074;7:tYXgPvlNnQZ3ga3tC5Rmofabfp3CfjYXEy3t13w6APM7ewocWtUiqL/RgwB692x7iIwBfLwmM/IMQEy4steYTRxpt/VupRk4sV1hL7q3SsI/JBJ7l6HXZZbUXpgptbydszNBhIDBVMqFVYgOcM5v6WtaEuVdueBegzQtrYFVJxYbK6bj+JT7TlMVnIgFZh9QQ9FbfIw4H24AAEDgju72BmpStKY2CN867lMox3WpH2OHDiYIvzaJl1n9sseXC8R8+NXgU6pqGcApS7UZvIuD2vnubnm/tjR24D+k2vGotMYQZN7yl+RjzDn0jR/7Xsjl5ny6MaS3sqXcSfoM1EfqyJ2YHVaNtxBo/ZR4IwQu0WPaxVjZxRfT39pxQehV5GBEPcxs71yhD9ma1dh+d62Lnu0d+V4pWb7YX8nB1jyOcOAHNJ/k/pbHKAJC6Guhk4PaEQdhWOjhkapOqXQRb5/mJQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:DB5EUR03HT074;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: d806fbf1-16d5-4902-6e82-08d4406c5829 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:DB5EUR03HT074; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:DB5EUR03HT074;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DB5EUR03HT074; x-forefront-prvs: 0192E812EC spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB1397CBDC3E73BCF209F5E293A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Jan 2017 13:09:04.4817 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR03HT074 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jan 2017 13:09:11.0049 (UTC) FILETIME=[398CEF90:01D27255] Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=pePnBoVSrpeiI9KC2eSfVsGMeB1r8Eng8cAri9DCznY X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB1397CBDC3E73BCF209F5E2933A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me sentas ula fatigeso pri ca tasko. E ni havas plusa projeti tradukenda (= ica esas nur la VisualEditor "Kerno"). Semblas ke Grosa ne esas uzebla pro= ke ne koncernas longeso. Do Dika semblas la minim kontroversala selekto. = Ektranchar kontenas "tranchar" do esas min kontroversala kam Extraktar (li= esas quaze sinonimi). Semblas ke -planketo esas neevitebla (kaze ke apara= s imajeto apude) do me ripropozas Texto-planketo. Do me propozas ke ni kon= servez la sequanta tradukuri: Bold - Dika Cut - Ektranchar Clipboard = - Texto-planketo ________________________________ From: linguolisto@yaho= ogroups.com on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Mori= n gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 17 J= anuary 2017 19:36 To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [linguo] Fra= zi bezonata por VisualEditor 'ektranchar'. Me volis skribar *extraktas. --_000_DB5PR03MB1397CBDC3E73BCF209F5E2933A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Me sentas ula fatig= eso pri ca tasko.  E ni havas plusa projeti tradukenda (ica esas nur l= a VisualEditor "Kerno").  Semblas ke Grosa ne esas uzebla pr= o ke ne koncernas longeso.  Do Dika semblas la minim kontroversala sel= ekto.  Ektranchar kontenas "tranchar" do esas min kontrover= sala kam Extraktar (li esas quaze sinonimi).  Semblas ke -planketo esa= s neevitebla (kaze ke aparas imajeto apude) do me ripropozas Texto-pla= nketo.  Do me propozas ke ni konservez la sequanta tradukuri:

<= br>

Bold -  Dika

Cut -  Ektranchar

Clipboar= d -  Texto-planketo



=
From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin= @gmail.com [linguolisto]
Sent: 17 January 2017 19:36
To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com
= Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
 = ;


'ektranchar'. Me volis skribar *extrakta= s.
= --_000_DB5PR03MB1397CBDC3E73BCF209F5E2933A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4864 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 15548 invoked by uid 102); 19 Jan 2017 14:30:21 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m8.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 14:30:21 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 19904 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2017 14:30:21 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 14:30:21 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: y9tPrLAWLDvlBND9zPHP43K85R9XsVy1h1899YJqSjbO9Vd. xhJ22dhTyXkTNPQQgazQ6N6f6sq0IRtIToZv2V2Wo7LJ8QY70u9ubfFPB1RB UdRR01ZeacGdx6FeFYKeD9BXsE2LshrJO6aTg6ST2.HziZkLr9w0Ka_9UGzK x9vGj84alEyQ..8__61B2IeGb7sVnYypl7jPvZR5FPpsvmQPI8Pc7sQwiVtm 9IE_GZP6vkzhjTMbTgp04eEsn.nBXN7vb1Q6mGrjZUcQMej8rThdGDLWjdb6 T8V.7rNIQ7EeZ70R4NVzGpRIx_62vP6Cwzujr9cR.wCndwC7mHbgJWg5sf65 cJ9PIE3oKK_YesE5Y1YEq_Clw9ESQhRC78GMHZ2_7Rxejvqm3fmtJ4ojGigy eJNbW97LuvFPuEyU1G1xFtYy3A2nverDUN404u0uyqLICr5yc1l_O6TbmgQi kGEeITux3uvkQi34IkCqSykEXW1cZl8yMWo2cBPnfP4rl2jcwFmjWFxmtpmU s6zJX1Uw10uDubUnnRq1ahF62R8Yvdla3B60AlP95Tz_6pVXgNI8idRp4.kl j.TsMji4YUTVoaTPWIoFmZiPKrv3F2JvVCTSmF9dpAp98S7AeHHLIMgRubNU C.yewEhaWcLuIuHQRnAo6tvz_h7QejNN_63qz5fUI8kKpNT79aTzxhaZeZjk 24c.VGmdLP9DpV22qg6P.hn_xiID0UnK1scOEKZn4Ugv5rSw_rJ9fVDxp6F8 OpcTLXyhLxIiCdiBjDfN1pFCAr3xq5PrjdG16.HvIZDDALOC3Rh7cWv7.O80 D6QwcA5IwKNMdErhWVn_3vlmrIfOZVAo4DDG2bQqLt9darEZJrLPg8_eVHb8 7_KQd11neE_Lhn0MfOfLczjgCShPFstR1HyIgmYOdOCzJI5JjtUG80bgcHdj phxZFfrcfOHVZRGDcDKFmp5iMcoiSrsmu1c0o97vNNWkI3dgSqEN3TzkTI_r UQ2k4pq.DqVeYwAmrJqk9yQMlFS5gRgbzvGGa0UZevKhN_4HU3HGOvBpQaKE ns8o8rJQyOCaAU0Z68fvJkMN2j9zPE7zMavlTLTnGPlLvyANL7YpNbhJ2grq V39ucYHUgQv06tFcWTHod3OeP3sz9ji24MIz4hsw1tS1r35k8kFtVhUxoqky fIkVIihvxvfkRinCZd_3fWBMNZDtK.nXf0qRahpJL4q813F5nS.lGi2c Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout05.plus.net) (84.93.230.250) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:30:21 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([81.174.204.27]) by avasout05 with smtp id aEWH1u0010bzFDM01EWJTw; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:30:18 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Hr8GIwbS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=o75Om8VSvNWUDu3DRFqKbw==:117 a=o75Om8VSvNWUDu3DRFqKbw==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=6mnm7gIjAAAA:8 a=qV0mfD4mAAAA:8 a=1Qhj-OTkAAAA:8 a=iVaDYfjomqJumTFKFb0A:9 a=oGxYP8hwajSemFtV:21 a=X8YCrdixKWEfUYJ0:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 a=KfCPT_WOMwHMG_Iid1qq:22 a=mnVZ7iNJyew7AB3q5ROZ:22 a=cq4hp0u9VdKmxERt5c5W:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:30:17 GMT Message-ID: <2017119143017.039316@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [linguo] "swichar' e "komutar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C." Me trovas nula defini por ica vorti en la lexiki da Dyer. Lua tradukuro por "komutilo" esas "commutator". Angla dicionario dicas ke ico esas "a device that maintains the direction of flow of electric current in a generator or reverses it in an electric motor". Por "switch" (elektrala), Dyer donas (verbo) "komutar", e (substantivo) "cirkuito-klozilo, inter-rupt-ilo, komut-ilo". Lu ne povis donar plu apta tradukuro ante adopto di "swichar". Se "komutilo" esas "commutator" ol ne esas "switch" quale trovebla exemple ye muro di chambro. Dyer ne povis donar apta od irga vorti por diversa kozi (quale abaniko, acetono, anorako, aspirino, atolo), nam apta vorti ne existis en Ido til pose. Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 12:52:56 -0500: Nu, me nultempe skribis «startilo» nek «haligilo»! Me skribis «interruptilo» e «komutilo», quale definita che Dyer... 2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] : Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"...' Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata por startar ed anke por haltigar. Ne suficas dicar "startilo" o "haltigilo". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti povas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por startar o haltigar ol. Quale me ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo diferas de swichilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala aparato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne por startar o haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado. Mem se ula linguo o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun swichilo, tala neklareso esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona. Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:31:26 -0500: Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento") kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "komutar" e "interruptar". Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Franca "commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar". La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transitiva. Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"... 2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] : Kara Gilles-Philippe, Vu skribis: Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"): startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento. La defino di "acendar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) produktar flami, mem nur mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: "to inflame (the passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro. Extensar la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swichilo nur komencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar fairo. On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar la problemo. Kordiale, Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500: Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" ed "extingar". "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!" La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne? "Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono." Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me konsideras la situeso tote absurda. La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo). Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch. Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"? Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"? Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500: Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo? Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off). https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar". Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926? Gilles-Philippe From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4865 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 6195 invoked by uid 102); 19 Jan 2017 14:40:58 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m10.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 14:40:58 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 28568 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2017 14:40:58 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 14:40:58 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: r.7h_SAWLDuqENCwj1GCWdBR5lfiW.2QY6ippGRTOD4KjIvX PCKyh3M14KafQcg29oUIROMIGinYUxl.uHL_Es5hD1.3XugPaxsurToOiwxf O2ZTq0wFL6JzoYebYxls2QwjEK_jSMLXZIqPBxnO_EsH.cXevnuUPeMBuPRL 4AbimA78Qop2YVh6CKdDzb_8hvDrWMhshh32nNISeaYwD0hp7BzLBTBrKWcw Zy1WUx195OZiBYWDxZgQQli7JtAibdscYDpdEJQmQDpLHknGQeDpZuvtGQ_k kfOslsRhU7FzXP.WJ3nXBBMyj6fvPTXXDQbJdpVwUTBnJVxkOL33g8gY4lIO dFuOWNJmBJD4DmVVsIxxqBLtIRI84cryw_E47WxB_uvtlC9MTx21Go.hRExh 2X8AuCANP2V1DqyYlQvAEL5WexEPzwegdxnEfUvz7RBz40GIFrQcK8gW2CLs j5GpLDfDoJATcgppYtSXI0w2alpm.RnCi_Rnbun35ZnbqwQSwBh_GRH5xvtG 7gkePG5hOgK6cDzp6COwy6W0znRNGIYzAuMZzPIBwtfdBJHzD_Mu5stquvPj AH5a88oaelj7rFqVWqt4.AjQT0_Qho0XzzVpyILJncoU348kuW7HoQEihRo7 WfX_HXIqhW5UVDceIUOP6b6B2HYG7_oQqyVHlffyEKFzFW8gF9BIuGNvPSAh OSIXRwQty0bHsV67aHyi0sXkaI.i0yz8JoCCWF6hbliM0s80gtprrzRBhvbw Ups211hQ0wFHF37oLhPYabzYXsR9.SxihDgk42mWpN1fbvtU4zmtytc9bB.h nRrQZziArMDb1a6QWy5UZO4_cwgmi9UmLXmEvmZOeURsPJcqv8yvHE_NHQzR 0Wv7cETP7k9oE_GdnezFJ.Z00ZVXopqhyBmIg8jisvmfX8oFmCvvGKnRV9Ep Nce3bZZTu5g_b9sQPNWJHbMoodujsav3Hq.SZRI8tQMnfltw1lsBQs008g1d ug75Qf3Mv_cRGmVotIdWTpQYo8L6MAJgXoXwbJUfPCwDoqMhyQh5B6Y1MPmZ UecGBs4C0u_i.vdsf0cSiYHdU.e8tiCOze02JHDca2O8GLMnRc8YOAq00ZHe d5QgcpiUjJjTHcmO8ok- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout05.plus.net) (84.93.230.250) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:40:58 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([81.174.204.27]) by avasout05 with smtp id aEgv1u0020bzFDM01Egwsw; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:40:56 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Hr8GIwbS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=o75Om8VSvNWUDu3DRFqKbw==:117 a=o75Om8VSvNWUDu3DRFqKbw==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=6mnm7gIjAAAA:8 a=qV0mfD4mAAAA:8 a=idNchinTDmd_by0XJ_cA:9 a=5MSmkzrZ-zJmY3vx:21 a=mu_MqRXuu67BsEie:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 a=KfCPT_WOMwHMG_Iid1qq:22 a=mnVZ7iNJyew7AB3q5ROZ:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 14:40:55 GMT Message-ID: <2017119144055.173979@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[linguo]_=C2=ABGenitoro=C2=BB?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C." Certe longeso dil vorti povas esar un faktoro e, konsiderante to, "genitoro" havas poka avantajo, dum ke "matro", "patro" e "filio" esas plu avantajoza. Tamen, la prefero por ica vorti esas probable parte anke pro deziro evitar "biologialeso". Maxim ofte, e strikte, "genitori" esas genitinti. Tamen, adoptanti di puero esas tre ofte nomata "genitori", e pueri adoptita esas nomata la "filii", ma nulu qua savas povas konsiderar ke li esas la "genitinti" dil pueri. Esas lia genitori qui respnsas pri la pueri, ne lia genitinti. Praktike, la vorto "genitoro", quale "matro", "patro" e "filio", esas uzata min strikte, ed ico evitas problemi sociala, exemple se skolestro dicas ke morge omna puero devas kunprenar permiso genitorala por monto-klimar. Robert C. -------------- Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 13:16:17 -0500: Nu, vua kompari semblas ridinda, nam «genitoro» havas nur un litero mine kam «genitinto»... e la sama nombro de silabi. «genitintino» 11 literi, «matro» 5 literi (45%); 5 silabi, 2 silabi (40%) «genitintulo» 11 literi, «patro» 5 literi (45%); 5 silabi, 2 silabi (40%) «genituro» 8 literi, «filio» 5 literi (63%); 4 silabi, 2 silabi (50%) «geniturulo» 10 literi, «filiulo» 7 literi (70%); 5 silabi, 3 silabi (60%) «geniturino» 10 literi, «filiino» 7 literi (70%); 5 silabi, 4 silabi (80%) «genitinto» 9 literi, «genitoro» 8 literi (89%); 4 silabi, 4 silabi (100%) Inverse, dicar ke «genitoro» esas plu bona kam «genitinto» nur pro ke «patro» esas plu bona kam «genitintulo» esas quaza sofismo. Ka do ni bezonas adoptar vorti tal quala *redaktoro, *vendoro, e.c., nur pro ke la derivaji ne satisfacas nia kaprici pri DEFIRS? 2017-01-18 12:22 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] : Me ne savas la motivo, ma supozeble esas anke posibla dicar ke la vorti matro, patro e filio ne esas necesa, se matro esas genitintino, patro esas genitintulo, e filio esas genituro. Robert C. Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 11:16:46 -0500: Kara samideani, Ula amiko demandis a me, pro quo Ido havas «genitoro» vice uzar «genit-into». Lu judikas ke se «genitoro» ofras nur plu bona internacioneso, ma lu esas sinonimo di «genit-into», do «genitoro» esas neutila troa sinonimo (kun simila etimologio). Kad ulu savas la motivo di ta adopto? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4866 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 27519 invoked by uid 102); 19 Jan 2017 15:14:30 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m12.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 15:14:30 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 28043 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2017 15:14:30 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 15:14:30 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: QsRbEtEWLDtjij7BLvjJMuOcxgsJHhu6m0usFfdawgg1l8a8 Bd1_Z9.gbxwZI8OuXxbzy.BPDmK.vOKFcfFcRz1bj1shGQwxunM3e1pYsGv2 fAVeQtCwsjgPpd4vt5Wh561ZBa4aqP1XXId_5hnSu0xVuhjNAkRNQwnDvFEO oy_trpqMvu1S6IOwBarotK2oDAsqjDhwJ99mbGxXVdg6dQLrT3RMljBruJvb JPizwQIRq3ImOP5xf4aeP4WCVSF3nqGTurQzzN6_RvqAWLTivh7zaYzjVxfs VZNWjjhgg66jrLaEW7OGO7FjJwhoquV.iQyxn_eBh_stUNyV.NmcW7WgwrP2 1.H4ijhBgusgS.1pjmtO4diIr6nYfdB6648KKrkjbVSUNYJrz.Gi14oTMr4i qMK.u70OaVxhVJVZUhtHb1SuXbNnE.UWq7J.CBXuTa0Wu3yrgfbIfvue.vis pJ0WcBpR8ckOVQ1esaUkYPRZ5ZgQlYfNsIUDGNx_qzbaziNHw3chvJwfET.X q4YzvGx24p_Lgu3AeH_nI4Smo5JF3OdE1WmUZ.ezYzhE6hpQYeO7ZCVpfHxI KXgEwRCgP1ZNSJSV6nOeTYBHou1K2YuzcZmUrYHEboHPCfGMcgom6hWRsd78 YoQCyYUk2MYLgrcBdgEi3aqPvOipAhue.nQardWeI4IC6jzbbxmFbgxck_c_ z0y41Yf4xWKNSyz8Yf2trJZZrHbNiq8y28lykoES.1Z2k8r7PS_tOafiFFSM aUhClX2RYnMmHE7jPyoni7bfcu9dujMqVtBa49a_GhCam1JHySIij1xjwufI 52EPG4l0pKLh_Kqnt69RzXF7paV6QjgpoB9e31uBqQ627mwBdLgCLIPtE0Y. 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On Thu, Jan 19, 2= 017 at 08:09 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Me sentas ula fatigeso pri ca tasko. E ni hav= as plusa projeti tradukenda > (ica esas nur la VisualEditor "Kerno"). Semb= las ke Grosa ne esas uzebla > pro ke ne koncernas longeso. Do Dika semblas= la minim kontroversala > selekto. Ektranchar kontenas "tranchar" do esas = min kontroversala kam > Extraktar (li esas quaze sinonimi). Semblas ke -pl= anketo esas neevitebla > (kaze ke aparas imajeto apude) do me ripropozas Te= xto-planketo. Do me > propozas ke ni konservez la sequanta tradukuri: > > = > Bold - Dika > > Cut - Ektranchar > > Clipboard - Texto-planketo > > > = ------------------------------ > > *From:* linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on > behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gma= il.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> > > *Sent:* 17 Januar= y 2017 19:36 > > > *To:* linguolisto@yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [ling= uo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor > > > 'ektranchar'. Me volis skribar *e= xtraktas. > > > --001a1148d5366efc42054673e7f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Segun la metaforo ipsa di "clipboard", segun la Angla "pinch= iloplanketo" (of segun la Germana =C2=ABpinchoplanketo=C2=BB) esas apt= a.
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On ya povas argumentar p= ri la vera signifiko di =C2=ABgenitar=C2=BB. On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 09:41 = 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> w= rote: > > > Certe longeso dil vorti povas esar un faktoro e, konsiderante = to, > "genitoro" havas poka avantajo, dum ke "matro", "patro" e "filio" esa= s plu > avantajoza. Tamen, la prefero por ica vorti esas probable parte ank= e pro > deziro evitar "biologialeso". > > Maxim ofte, e strikte, "genitori"= esas genitinti. Tamen, adoptanti di > puero esas tre ofte nomata "genitori= ", e pueri adoptita esas nomata la > "filii", ma nulu qua savas povas konsi= derar ke li esas la "genitinti" dil > pueri. Esas lia genitori qui respnsas= pri la pueri, ne lia genitinti. > > Praktike, la vorto "genitoro", quale "= matro", "patro" e "filio", esas > uzata min strikte, ed ico evitas problemi= sociala, exemple se skolestro > dicas ke morge omna puero devas kunprenar = permiso genitorala por > monto-klimar. > > Robert C. > > -------------- > >= Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 = > 13:16:17 -0500: > > Nu, vua kompari semblas ridinda, nam =C2=ABgenitoro= =C2=BB havas nur un litero mine > kam =C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB... e la sama no= mbro de silabi. > > =C2=ABgenitintino=C2=BB 11 literi, =C2=ABmatro=C2=BB 5 = literi (45%); 5 silabi, 2 silabi (40%) > =C2=ABgenitintulo=C2=BB 11 literi,= =C2=ABpatro=C2=BB 5 literi (45%); 5 silabi, 2 silabi (40%) > =C2=ABgenitur= o=C2=BB 8 literi, =C2=ABfilio=C2=BB 5 literi (63%); 4 silabi, 2 silabi (50%= ) > =C2=ABgeniturulo=C2=BB 10 literi, =C2=ABfiliulo=C2=BB 7 literi (70%); 5= silabi, 3 silabi (60%) > =C2=ABgeniturino=C2=BB 10 literi, =C2=ABfiliino= =C2=BB 7 literi (70%); 5 silabi, 4 silabi (80%) > =C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB 9 l= iteri, =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB 8 literi (89%); 4 silabi, 4 silabi (100%) > > I= nverse, dicar ke =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB esas plu bona kam =C2=ABgenitinto=C2= =BB nur pro ke > =C2=ABpatro=C2=BB esas plu bona kam =C2=ABgenitintulo=C2= =BB esas quaza sofismo. Ka do ni > bezonas adoptar vorti tal quala *redakto= ro, *vendoro, e.c., nur pro ke la > derivaji ne satisfacas nia kaprici pri = DEFIRS? > > 2017-01-18 12:22 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguo= listo] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Me ne savas la motivo, ma su= pozeble esas anke posibla dicar ke la vorti > matro, patro e filio ne esas = necesa, se matro esas genitintino, patro esas > genitintulo, e filio esas g= enituro. > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 > 11:16:46 -0500: > > Kara samideani, > Ula amiko d= emandis a me, pro quo Ido havas =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB vice uzar > =C2=ABgeni= t-into=C2=BB. > > Lu judikas ke se =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB ofras nur plu bona = internacioneso, ma lu esas > sinonimo di =C2=ABgenit-into=C2=BB, do =C2=ABg= enitoro=C2=BB esas neutila troa sinonimo (kun > simila etimologio). > > Kad= ulu savas la motivo di ta adopto? > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philip= pe > > > --001a11444f82d1ac04054673f8bf Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, me ne konkordas, nam en la Franca e la Angla =C2=ABgenitor=C2=BB es= as la strikta nomo por biologiala patro o matro=E2=80=A6 E ni ja olim havis= diskuto pri la filozofio di =C2=ABgenitado=C2=BB. On ya povas argumentar p= ri la vera signifiko di =C2=ABgenitar=C2=BB.
=
On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 09:41 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= wrote:
<= /u>
=C2=A0

Certe longeso dil vorti povas esar un faktoro e, konsiderante to, = "genitoro" havas poka avantajo, dum ke "matro", "p= atro" e "filio" esas plu avantajoza. Tamen, la prefero por i= ca vorti esas probable parte anke pro deziro evitar "biologialeso"= ;.

Maxim ofte, e strikte, = "genitori" esas genitinti. Tamen, adoptanti di puero esas tre oft= e nomata "genitori", e pueri adoptita esas nomata la "filii&= quot;, ma nulu qua savas povas konsiderar ke li esas la "genitinti&quo= t; dil pueri. Esas lia genitori qui respnsas pri la pueri, ne lia genitinti= .

Praktike, la vorto "= ;genitoro", quale "matro", "patro" e "filio&q= uot;, esas uzata min strikte, ed ico evitas problemi sociala, exemple se sk= olestro dicas ke morge omna puero devas kunprenar permiso genitorala por mo= nto-klimar.

Robert C.

--------------

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 13:16:17 -0500:

Nu, vua kompari semblas ridinda, nam =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB havas nur u= n litero mine kam =C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB... e la sama nombro de silabi.

=C2=ABgenitintino=C2=BB 11 lit= eri, =C2=ABmatro=C2=BB 5 literi (45%); 5 silabi, 2 silabi (40%)
=C2=ABgenitintulo=C2=BB 11 literi, =C2=ABpatro=C2=BB 5 literi = (45%); 5 silabi, 2 silabi (40%)
=C2=ABgenituro=C2= =BB 8 literi, =C2=ABfilio=C2=BB 5 literi (63%); 4 silabi, 2 silabi (50%) =C2=ABgeniturulo=C2=BB 10 literi, =C2=ABfiliulo=C2=BB= 7 literi (70%); 5 silabi, 3 silabi (60%)
=C2=ABgen= iturino=C2=BB 10 literi, =C2=ABfiliino=C2=BB 7 literi (70%); 5 silabi, 4 si= labi (80%)
=C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB 9 literi, =C2=ABge= nitoro=C2=BB 8 literi (89%); 4 silabi, 4 silabi (100%)

Inverse, dicar ke =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB esas pl= u bona kam =C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB nur pro ke =C2=ABpatro=C2=BB esas plu bona= kam =C2=ABgenitintulo=C2=BB esas quaza sofismo. Ka do ni bezonas adoptar v= orti tal quala *redaktoro, *vendoro, e.c., nur pro ke la derivaji ne satisf= acas nia kaprici pri DEFIRS?

2017-01-18 12:22 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [ling= uolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


Me ne savas l= a motivo, ma supozeble esas anke posibla dicar ke la vorti matro, patro e f= ilio ne esas necesa, se matro esas genitintino, patro esas genitintulo, e f= ilio esas genituro.
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com = [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 11:16:46 -0500:
<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> Kara samideani,
Ula amiko = demandis a me, pro quo Ido havas =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB vice uzar =C2=ABgenit= -into=C2=BB.

Lu judikas ke= se =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB ofras nur plu bona internacioneso, ma lu esas sino= nimo di =C2=ABgenit-into=C2=BB, do =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB esas neutila troa s= inonimo (kun simila etimologio).

Kad ulu savas la motivo di ta adopto?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Phi= lippe

--001a11444f82d1ac04054673f8bf-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4868 Return-Path: X-Sender: idojc@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 1543 invoked by uid 102); 19 Jan 2017 16:14:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m10.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 16:14:40 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 27850 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2017 16:14:40 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.83) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 16:14:40 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of hotmail.com designates 65.54.190.17 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: yshjviMWLDuI.qdDyRGfRO6fczpzWDYy2mto4VoOnOehvI8Z 7L_5zOM5JYJd1Ks_H4SuhKpDK.d22QAZjeZCyTop2S1njVZGQ5_pycOrRY58 M4DVzFEXpa1W.Vde_FXbM6PiJhfY62MBNeTnvUd6BgJQa5iiuEMczxu3fZIC q2Qcd4sESvxsCCk5HQE_N1JSWf5wl1c0NAlW6ky04FD81h7cq3S2DBT8ZuKZ v1TB7S5D9Z9ZS2twXAF8c6apPs_UOJC2B3MlSMdExly6ff19lwAKCAql5.WV Pv_9_JsWE_mWbem4AkZvmu_cDRlOJDtuoYHKPYt0ZxqnlZEvErHPYsanRujR rGDgsH7tvWClBPjVA3eslR_e86yTmn1uEd7zj3XJKYt.GTuEer_8PE9LX.SC FlSP4MJ6bD7gwvf7Etoggkh6h40QXYxf.nnbPYjtpOKHZmlxKjfLAn8Gf6Wj .ywr0Tbe7FglTfXPUsfXV7V7hLWlwDe5iLX24uDeVC3VWhnZl8YMRAAgdjrn wF9BPW2MN2HVQSxB5LVk.UPDZfIBUXH21gvUu61aNpTdtGcboiL1GVk10Enj 93ZmQGl292X9cYAR4aTmTABrTIZJByNrqIZ9BTxy1MXNg_sGOjN2j3sir89v w7nwbBcOYupAFF33t2bGmzjn1DLD7gNGxCkeLAqYXOPTCgwzuSpova4ANQCc x1yMCXLkBxxccPKDqBAMZnUZO845m2apBmmNUzAJfYHBdFkAVzp65Hb5ZQJ1 Ol6pMDyfU7lJxRZg_791CLO8VuflRp88U4IDX_MKa6JnmeGaRGFimRHLgsH3 Q7lo7W1sPTBcLdcO6cdHKKAo2RlFkWJclwFrvfmqPNZ03uyODDWRGV2MASla ljWiA3xc93Jt0GOjiRGWcFXT7Zw9GpL8F0eh9mjrNVbHEIZP2UvQstr0uHbT di5tvQHOpF9s7oE3ptkzuhnjRu.NkmSPSADX_30oYbkFnBJMI5.IjGfTChkQ 4g.wLR0bSbNwM7XamZ8icFvYirOLb5.GE50msMuA2qb1QKW9sLuq_uVAFPbp rp.epQsZcGALaqrGP_BWDvLKLKFMN89Yd4_UosHHqV3kO7kqgZgN5d86W0gP mURM6p4RKqHh.fk4v2lVsufxtBs.nAITNX22KY3txqqZW5Nrha.a4faw2Qj7 ZG.baaZ4c2dE3y0574wFCqIy4XXF_7vOLyJI0lKipyN6X73Od_2NL_6bsXw6 pmaJfJG12508R9Qng_yuGilpy9Dedj_KCjCp.PKssiV0Z_.gmF_UUwYazPTf S48P7asvLQ-- Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=hotmail.com; 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Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:14:33 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroAACxa7gAAaF4CAAAKaT4AAFBAAgAAShYCAABQWw4AABRAAgAK1WMyAACQ/AIAAER4K Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:14:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:E6062111A07C6BB166EB9547C29846FB64F234EEF03DE2D85705E3DCFF70B0DA;UpperCasedChecksum:1F0A841807A9E3FC5A605A6C75841D68BA58069B47CADF74D8C52BE7544AC3AD;SizeAsReceived:8927;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [Yg4R4crTJvQizoa3mvqPBqXodjTvcBzl] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;DB5EUR01HT058;7:yeVYB0WKw23zCAxtHyCewrsMiqQWPaeuQuQl5mPwshtyhEddnNJKv6LdhQ9NfhpyNtPgeKsyt+PhN8faJ9FS4yMujPycKFsHaWKhRNzDu1G4nwlcWIUN7dUqn/jlmoRr024/IvO79N0VCN390oexxBPasSsiozXnX6mb5J/dK4dvY7158aFCLoaiX9QXPWcs4wy56jYr8snATrwBHRM6vx8X90VvGkbuUBMJQvJwpzMK38GsmpT5BkW2CU3BV9HIP/KZLh8ahepY575/B7kMQmfCvWUx6fiQWpHbDx7wX2TEcHDXzwz2j45ZhaBnkolROj7amG4c94r+qVWEqfdM4i1tdqxS/9aXA/j9k35VwY6B88V6Ig/ejDTmlN2x4V4XgpK605p5s8fgxABHytorP6dBb7qNYlAY79jIwDrfrNSZKtcBwAxBs5ZS6hpBIPmW4X9XkppZPNAgQblgZsrFTQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:DB5EUR01HT058;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8c3821a8-ffe4-40b9-c5c2-08d440864165 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(5061507293)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:DB5EUR01HT058; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:DB5EUR01HT058;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DB5EUR01HT058; x-forefront-prvs: 0192E812EC spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB1397B2589F5E882A97F16731A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Jan 2017 16:14:33.0654 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR01HT058 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Jan 2017 16:14:39.0302 (UTC) FILETIME=[22819660:01D2726F] Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=KhyVL7BTLo81mjIrAnnJNqg6vyH12VotNa7nqD41Eww X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB1397B2589F5E882A97F167311A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara G-P La direta tradukuro del angla esas ya Pinchilo-planketo. Se to = esas la unika selekto, pri qui ni povas konsentar, ni uzez ol. Me sugestis= Texto-planketo pro ke la analogeso ne esas exakta. "Clipboard" reala uzes= as por tenar papero-folii generale samgrandesa (exemple A4). Do me chanja= s mea rekomendi: Bold - Dika Cut - Ektranchar Clipboard - Pinchilo-p= lanketo ________________________________ From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.c= om on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmori= n@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 19 January 20= 17 15:08 To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezona= ta por VisualEditor Segun la metaforo ipsa di "clipboard", segun la Angl= a "pinchiloplanketo" (of segun la Germana =ABpinchoplanketo=BB) esas apta. --_000_DB5PR03MB1397B2589F5E882A97F167311A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kara G-P

La direta tradukuro del angla esas ya Pinchilo-planketo.  Se= to esas la unika selekto, pri qui ni povas konsentar, ni uzez ol.  Me= sugestis Texto-planketo pro ke la analogeso ne esas exakta.  "Cl= ipboard" reala uzesas por tenar papero-folii generale samgrandesa (ex= emple A4).


Do me chanjas mea rekomendi:


Bold -  Dika

Cut -  Ektranchar

Clipboard -  Pinchilo-planketo




From: lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of G= illes-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto]
Sent: 19 January 2017 15:08
To: linguo= listo@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por V= isualEditor
 


Segun la metafor= o ipsa di "clipboard", segun la Angla "pinchiloplanketo"= ; (of segun la Germana =ABpinchoplanketo=BB) esas apta.
--_000_DB5PR03MB1397B2589F5E882A97F167311A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4869 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 11198 invoked by uid 102); 19 Jan 2017 16:50:45 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 16:50:45 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 19176 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2017 16:50:45 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 16:50:45 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.173 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: YHVNP.AWLDuL54OS.aZyhV1ohsgxtOz9tM3MooCQvb6rkkXJ .ylOa65rN2XmOkcMdB1F0.KNEoiQANIneRjyE2Q1gceD8yEZ9RP_jQ1P6aOR Csvx3HQ1x_fbT5U2DWci8cEuFjaBUypKDsxpXGKyypB_7JK8wtK7gFqR7Ihl c8sXRVmh59eB9J5DaO2baB_ixtdZwfz0a5o1rVoSGITkW_CemlOK0Km2QJPw 4G4UckNBrDgzgbLDTbXuCjgHzhnnlWE_EANfbZzfa0f_hiH3XGiaxuobTnGt 3Qj_24GgGG4F_drL7ly1KP37mokzfXfGMh4jdqFKwAEr71fhODAQhBef3iSt qf8vUruJC_COp.4hHCbNybQd8Vm_J_pxKtZF7HHRo2h20yP1fR8dFGX2G9mt R86hN1U0TeleXEWooELHUubZ9MUUXZ1DjLigEPS7ZD5pagcf7hZJ9l9CUyp4 v8QyN_xa3a9ZyioAQO1sEXbQAouZOojSitczIxMpbe_8qdRs.N84eLn7ouC7 DidcraTOPZI2KoJllPxoF0Dtc4RNFRmWo0l2a44xaJnhe.nDYgWu7Xro8qDb nhmAFhT8jwr15ch8wsoHffd5gTNSR4rm8tXgDGrmwdNQZJnik4QzxCAndC9C jURGMO17vSYP_1YT0Vl.Fzmzz7ImJvla0Tz9yFrSACrbFtQerieudQv5ge_u 6qcO.2wYR.t_Jn6DGSmgsZkfOLF_9GsfH8rI_Vc_PtCOLx84HwzS4k9YT97v MpY5GbJ6njmH8IAqLVVguz3YPTc_KhuVCmRHPK2nbtaKNFsfHb_Px2FBT98r ZOYscHXrJWuvynhB1fYmi6r_inA0INc8TKlv1z9Nq4RPiDRtJs4UuI7TI5Vb vRMYFrInU5yZ5KRLfMpWTVc8PiVY6iNLFik2xS21ygQc7izA4EACqD6oc6aE _eD0c46LYyrWylRGDm1kDtrvRiA9b3UFEW20uPKXJM2jXIgiirTKsA0ne9lm LfjUxY6gL7PF3ONG6QtUiUuV.n.P6a08Z4RJn.r.gus5To4ECxN.H.iTsgUR 44Fe2fG_zwILmwl8kdDeCqj8TSph1krtgpEy7R0q.hrQqZBkvXrfyKM.5XDq lhHjpO83CW1FnqcnAgScKbezZLH24bEjrlPjDlueqvm4AS53AtK7tDncvP.s PSkUKrbXI7ouzILcWht1N3Qhoz7Y5lgiHAu5ph9Eb7ufqTfuF9QXoE5PUogU U6iHSR1czF8LqFyo_z6FvwZxIv9laxAPs6UOyTWnB9Ozc4LmKmM- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f173.google.com) (209.85.217.173) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:50:44 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 35so39460735uak.1 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 08:50:44 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=sjMsezMkqGe7cw9cizGF8KZHxvRXl2k0wEAnRy9Vdhc=; b=SmBSVeyEWCXfhi+DDD0yNibZXzXmw1en8bmF4KlbKrTWCHoq3dSdg+prVIYLhSE4Jg 087R6gblne39iTCoQgc75I7tLKBPXR/SWWaxsuaZKXev8t6rqCZeSRvf1/OTipVMdpM4 hQ0YuzI26mlCr6PEnk/krStkdvMsVKTKGP24bSGvnARfc00hcex0Q/kRnSeqrMQE9E/H leZwJPtZFbkchFw1iR5G9FSa7T26OnYn6nBaSnxwePf0JxWBQga8/bK7QrYoQzNGJxl0 wVXfogf0lAGc5p6aaNYkBaVtjPaS/1QFyRuTTT4pH/x5eQYsSUF3zhr/AMFkJTEe3d2f LmPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ4wQk1ESFKsqrWkwKvMmvsiCeEOEhHtUlXQ3rgxYOesLmgnei58vx/5HLF3DnIJ0DgO6fUAHEir1TPQw== X-Received: by 10.176.16.73 with SMTP id g9mr5250632uab.92.1484844644426; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 08:50:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 08:50:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:50:43 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045e33b293eeed0546755507 Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=-tMNebl1h4atw2Y5b0OmbiLWN-IqhZEgk8ybuLqgy0VdepSo-AG_sQ X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --f403045e33b293eeed0546755507 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Me konsentas pri "dika" ed "ektranchar", ma ne pri "pinchilo-planketo". Me preferus tradukar de la Franca e dicar "paper-presilo", vorto ja existanta en nia lexiki (Beaufront/Couturat, Dyer) e facile komprenebla, anke metaforale. 2017-01-19 16:14 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Kara G-P > > > La direta tradukuro del angla esas ya Pinchilo-planketo. Se to esas la > unika selekto, pri qui ni povas konsentar, ni uzez ol. Me sugestis > Texto-planketo pro ke la analogeso ne esas exakta. "Clipboard" reala > uzesas por tenar papero-folii generale samgrandesa (exemple A4). > > > Do me chanjas mea rekomendi: > > > Bold - Dika > > Cut - Ektranchar > > Clipboard - Pinchilo-planketo > > --f403045e33b293eeed0546755507 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me konsentas pri "dika&quo= t; ed "ektranchar", ma ne pri "pinchilo-planketo". Me p= referus tradukar de la Franca e dicar "paper-presilo", vorto ja e= xistanta en nia lexiki (Beaufront/Couturat, Dyer) e facile komprenebla, ank= e metaforale.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-01-19 16:14 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara G-P

<= br>

La direta tradukuro del angla esas ya Pinchilo-planketo.=C2=A0 = Se to esas la unika selekto, pri qui ni povas konsentar, ni uzez ol.=C2=A0 = Me sugestis Texto-planketo pro ke la analogeso ne esas exakta. =C2=A0"= Clipboard" reala uzesas por tenar papero-folii generale samgrandesa (= exemple A4).


Do me chanjas mea rekomendi:


Bold - =C2=A0Dika

Cut - =C2=A0Ektranchar

Clipboard - =C2=A0Pinchilo-planketo



--f403045e33b293eeed0546755507-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4870 Return-Path: X-Sender: idojc@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 18461 invoked by uid 102); 19 Jan 2017 16:54:42 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m14.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 16:54:42 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 17412 invoked from network); 19 Jan 2017 16:54:42 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jan 2017 16:54:42 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of hotmail.com designates 65.55.90.155 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: Wb6nfWcWLDtdvbrlOgQARCjug1uzuUq._Lj9DtwyXl9NuDM3 6sNaLM3JcoyNUg5IsMfAIuKk4cukX6W8f_RhlEA03CU2dMDAc3UpjNPni0ae hbrzgKWHltzJnP1h55W8nrg.BbsFp5rlNSELDyLZDd0U.rL9BwyHv7nyPvwH SoaJ0Fe4tSwLg.TfwgjKZ.SeICIn4DvuE_PcoVZz3vw.WZobrP3WCUs0FO5b pA2j6H0Hno4ebiDw2XRlbjgVKnZssFfkRPRq5ut4SCFqKsq_omR7Os4__DYF mSBH8w3vQrmmHcWuqXS3CIqBAF7.Ze55Drbkq9c.qRa0QdG5BmVBzxzMe1RY G7yJjFlpJ7AyTkvUYJwvywPnnMuZR_01TfyRcdN3p.Zk1dB4Yx5N.aw7iQCw BEHeOYBWalxmv0FIC5uu.a.6C6.HIaCXvdvg4v9T6T3Cw3QeAlynZcQrZC40 RvUwBqPvd2NI_Uh2otfFFfjsq9uQcFXLWCXv9C1h87z_aP6D7.opvdUfO1aI Sce2Zc4OsF.nVcU2Z.68xsTEgVVTt5.UQi8MjGQYbZUzsEvyobPwWAeVUfLj iomyMGXFVwj7i9dvq0._fVocHAcoNF8T9xNoXJ.spwGHRZqUjehk2Y0FzLU7 MgnQp2kWz_OYvE6Bn1UP5f.1TB02bioXQKw.S6cQigGgWH0OrErQVWXhj35V KWrauNwDITNiSSWXZqq1UfAn7e7d4xHaAk4AkeFwun7T0xKW935r_rHc45It 4c1nlc_fDPO6aHn69StBhm6plQqdNPeoSHWIcAicSMrEkqKRA9wnFSP22_zd 5DZeBzHZ8zva6IT_eGn6YjtYiklqk0_EPy9wJQS0WGaXIeA8RXBy9X2EsSif ctVB2bIyWqre9csC3SbCukgngdWSj8o_PKy2.gHueOsDIwSNn5rw5Kfz6oSJ cWI7OiyHsHdPM6Q2SpdRcLixe6TJ0fZ3UT6cbJMPSgHNv.Buo5Lh8O6boOGE R2gTtewJiO6tlyHLbHY85F77BmFSTTTWomYCS926w5hPMXRMh69NUvAV4ncL cXObhKu0Dk2_NOVzvbB5ExrEkv4J4Bg1zGG7reDCLPSkvN6zZMD5ujbqoQPI mw4s05SSEOVEFcFxdcvPNdQD4NAQ6JRt9eWhjbvEQ8AfqKxP5IBNCip4WC28 sCwBGpdGKb_xLqioew4uKvAfvshzXUZwHS3OrJZ_Nm589atSft5nJrBNf0dy aDmcAGze7PfzjCsc7H_CvIutNvTowvxcOj0BcmaUFOXNpp0eIHLQR6F1FRQ. 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Quale vi povas vidar, la precipua problemo esas nu= n la "MediaWiki extension". Ol kontenas centi de frazi tradukenda! [cid:= 49a55da4-39cd-443f-84a1-9a97ca03436b] --_000_DB5PR03MB13970A3E0563DA49E8DD44A33A47E0DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hodie me pluse labo= ris.  Quale vi povas vidar, la precipua problemo esas nun la "Med= iaWiki extension".  Ol kontenas centi de frazi tradukenda!



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Me ne savas. Me ne tr= ovas la vorto en Lexiko di nova vorti da Robert Carnaghan (2001), ma= ol aparas sen asterisko en Radikaro Ido-Germana da Ferdinand M=C3= =BCller (2007) ed en plura enreta vorto-libri, mem en ica Ido-Latina lexiko= :

https://glosbe.com/io= /la/heroeno

GN

=C2=A0

2017-01-18 6:12 GMT+00:00 Gilles-P= hilippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com = [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Kand= e on oficaligis =C2=ABheroeno=C2=BB?

=
=

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 0= 8:09 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguo= listo@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0
=
=

Me sentas ula fatigeso pri ca tasko.=C2=A0 E ni havas plusa projet= i tradukenda (ica esas nur la VisualEditor "Kerno").=C2=A0 Sembla= s ke Grosa ne esas uzebla pro ke ne koncernas longeso.=C2=A0 Do Dika sembla= s la minim kontroversala selekto.=C2=A0 Ektranchar kontenas "tranchar&= quot; do esas min kontroversala kam Extraktar (li esas quaze sinonimi).=C2= =A0 Semblas ke -planketo esas neevitebla (kaze ke aparas imajeto apude)=C2= =A0do me ripropozas Texto-planketo.=C2=A0 Do me propozas ke ni konservez la= sequanta tradukuri:


Bold - =C2=A0Dika

Cut = - =C2=A0Ektranchar

Clipboard - =C2=A0Texto-plank= eto



<= /div>

Sent: 17 January 2= 017 19:36


To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.co= m
Subject: Re: [ling= uo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor


'ektranchar= 9;. Me volis skribar *extraktas.

--001a11458ba8227ee005467b3ee4-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4872 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 740 invoked by uid 102); 20 Jan 2017 00:40:55 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 00:40:55 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 27946 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2017 00:40:54 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 00:40:54 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.41 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: nmu5qlQWLDuDBVPqO0WgbCuXFCrpWHPCc2mJK_7o5L5hVtRf lskH4Tz6.jO2y_Ik1KPC5sj4Ily6tPMEfJoYJII7e4_P4z7UvgtrFM2pSVQp 0ksJ2noQmVZkOGSZhM98Pk2E8q4Cg7Tsy.1c10fevS1CFEyZ5xJIEsfaaBxC CNY6nD2QNvoO.Z1KUzpmuS5yvjkGe7mY0nImejdcj8T8ubIHQTj.bo1AQYqp iUnVjyaXT78qc1h0HhF7iLVpzThqyT1adtcviLrdxBNxVTPcRvzH.lx5Qc9Z R2NglTq9RzwmaZ8G639Ymcx7ZBAXkP4NhZazgz0GCsVTIUTapUvOGN3hGBpV j.znTYKQAM60baedqeDesLJF.GfARDO2NSWtg1TIV416GtThMiHKCW9c8qWR u8z5G4IQaAbdgkoIUC0RUWTkK0U5dPRDufiOj5NFr4srBQ6gR71HiOCuU2Hg IRSJMxOim4dZ2ULqhCXjgw0pxzr4PlIdjP.ZTQAEFumWxJKvp9CiJT_DylPB f_ELHCdwyrL.qiCRpQU3lB3Bt7uYwX61Vx06KHVfAdqVLF39VtBMRmpqUR6e 6J5leKXNR_F4WGUVK7WPuJKm5Mjzl1Rw02gXDyNUiDAGTTJf8zEHGmEOGy6u m90n8zcVB3vYFHBdaZt36tF6cnxir0yYzO1xoAt3O_V.RBbMJ9_2bYCFyP5t 81nr8MsEnVUQSN_0eTSIDRGgtjVmPZAdaDlN71ItgmeSB4ozZy1Tg3kl8XHs 51zSsleBjn_DducCkEtFb90fXMmeyiP2zZEC5J0YS1CZ38Ig1PprryzBKyWV DPpDktL4Aj3w_wBZ04y4dF8u7TMpuZV8sRKP3MLWqfqjAAPvmKpCKXinUIFX P9pLtt0fP_gWqqcyCXJccBvcZH5yn3BLsJ30.fGm3wXuuOTsj2jqmlEYZWPO 82fpaFUabAbdnMRDlt.nNgNg6GkAeotxeX6s64gDajgaiob1LBzRGFz3P9A9 w_.V9Gw9_56lEkZ9Zo_XLVa3KLLfltOol9VRsQcNTpaVq2b7JD7yZaYpksGR WPUH9v3gyMOulZDNnL.SzSceSLGyIiq9y9BBTOyZFVgo9ITWo9BTn5u8mP7v OhYjWqTVeDBrSQW83Ni.PUi5RAc9TcJF0ogmqqhh8vwXqoam0m_7UwP94NW2 hM_7T6b1XPWUVLlKogiDxr.R.JbBo83ZVf4YxWjkKG2KZ.lyzedjAdIbH5sg _JdYP7s2LR9yoFHsfIT6LfEx8oeL8Zdo_z5sj0zevQr.7p3uNcC21jjRK2iY yScQ2YFEdSs5NjMJUFtVRQqktxEvsQTVsmRnIA-- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f41.google.com) (209.85.213.41) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:40:54 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f41.google.com with SMTP id k127so42092757vke.0 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:40:54 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=6UFOP4Umx+NwZPU3zRNw5EthaUIgo3bn9BzXSQ6ZykI=; b=Rhe5KektGkwmPbtF7J5SMIfhhKRSMHCLZrNCo6d5Y1M9A834NEdiwdkXKBdr8wGhPY bAkvfXP2pOovfJUswgdq6RlInLFYOEFUwtxbJIdDnVZHcUVszL4U19QYA0D/GR9CAKpi AcxSChm7QZp3AsSBPIbPbJb1XEjgtCsgVkbefu6SPwKli7iDBQrhvAK+dapsHJac6lmm +thOXlu0DporVgT8B6t/dJteOx5eMCLiigQVkmfrzKOpfEYReQEFJhYybwLJYS7roc2l dz4l4yNkehrwF4uPMtGkDhrIg1feIoAfXF7QAfCWkQ0VEkggBhh/xT5vIq0Zlm9IhPkM KYxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIAlURo5xHFcL0GWloOiaSAw+KO555+pyVgN7Dvz/LTlIbCuZlXuQVbWLFWneOORq5NXP13t77Uj3LI+Q== X-Received: by 10.31.84.68 with SMTP id i65mr5025301vkb.23.1484872854227; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:40:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 16:40:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 00:40:53 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e503a034f2c05467be704 Subject: Re: [linguo] Defino X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=RKtVztHHWiZjPp_6mNnUyBdQvaMgf4bLm4XHwFcU1D5ZmKuWAZ_nBg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a114e503a034f2c05467be704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gratulo pro tua defino! Ol esas mem plu kompleta kam olta lektebla en *Lexi= ko di nova vorti* da Camiel De Cock (1988): =C2=ABdokumentaro pri certen af= ero o societo o persono=C2=BB. Nur un punto forsan meritas debato. Qua nom= on on donez al bindita chanto di libro, sur qua on ordinare imprimas lua ti= tulo e la nomo dil autoro? En tua defino tu nomizas ol "dorso", sequante F= GI, ma forsan "dorso" esas plu apta por nomizar la dopa kovrilo di libro. M= e preferus nomizar ta bindita chanto kom "spino", sequante la Angla. En Esp= eranto, segun PIV (2esma edituro, 2002), on nomizas ol "dorso", ma ica nomi= zo esas kontestata da plura experti. Exemple, en la verko *La sekreta mirak= lo* (2008) la Hispana skriptisto Jorge Camacho uzas "spino" por ica senco e= d ofras yena gloso (hike tradukita da me): =C2=AB*spino*: En libro, parto j= untanta la kovrilo al dorsa kovrilo, ofte kun imprimita titulo, lektebla ka= nde la libro stacas o jacas sur tabulo.=C2=BB (p. 194) Esus ya kelke stran= ja nomizar kom "dorso" du diferanta parti di libro! Pro to me judikas kom p= referinda "spino" vice "dorso". Yen la AFGHIR-tradukuri: A: *spine* F: *do= s* G: *Buchr=C3=BCchen* H: *lomo* I: *dorso* R: =D0=BA=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B5=D1= =88=D0=BE=D0=BA 2017-01-18 2:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@= gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Me probis skr= ibar defino por la vorto "dosiero": > https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dosier= o > > Kad ulu povas savigar da me quala lu judikas olu? > > Predanko! > Gil= les-Philippe > > > > > > > > > > > --001a114e503a034f2c05467be704 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gratulo pro tua defino! Ol esas= mem plu kompleta kam olta lektebla en Lexiko di nova vorti da Camie= l De Cock (1988): =C2=ABdokumentaro pri certen afero o societo o persono=C2= =BB.

Nur un pun= to forsan meritas debato. Qua nomon on donez al bindita chanto di libro, su= r qua on ordinare imprimas lua titulo e la nomo dil autoro?=C2=A0 En tua de= fino tu nomizas ol "dorso", sequante FGI, ma forsan "dorso&q= uot; esas plu apta por nomizar la dopa kovrilo di libro. Me preferus nomiza= r ta bindita chanto kom "spino", sequante la Angla. En Esperanto,= segun PIV (2esma edituro, 2002), on nomizas ol "dorso", ma ica n= omizo esas kontestata da plura experti. Exemple, en la verko La sekreta = miraklo (2008) la Hispana skriptisto Jorge Camacho uzas "spino&quo= t; por ica senco ed ofras yena gloso (hike tradukita da me): =C2=ABspino= : En libro, parto juntanta la kovrilo al dorsa kovrilo, ofte kun imprim= ita titulo, lektebla kande la libro stacas o jacas sur tabulo.=C2=BB (p. 19= 4)

Esus y= a kelke stranja nomizar kom "dorso" du diferanta parti di libro! = Pro to me judikas kom preferinda "spino" vice "dorso". = Yen la AFGHIR-tradukuri:

A: spine
F: dos
G: Buchr=C3=BCchen
H: lomo
I: dorso
R: =D0=BA=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B5=D1= =88=D0=BE=D0=BA


2017-01-18 2:47 GMT+00:0= 0 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmai= l.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Me probis skribar defino por la vorto "= dosiero":
=
Kad ulu povas savigar da me quala lu judikas olu?
=
Predanko!
Gilles-Philippe

=


=






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Kad on licencas [ulu] od [ulo]?

Me licencis a lu peskar?
Me licencis lu peskar?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
--001a11442cc241b91905467eff8c-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4874 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 6020 invoked by uid 102); 20 Jan 2017 04:26:21 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 04:26:21 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 16291 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2017 04:26:21 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 04:26:21 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: i_Rq51QWLDumNBDKheEuVC5vDUb3nSGXQj.PP0xbLReqJ2IJ Gs.xQRx.i1ImkIqEaLAtnnOmjeWuW3KobjfSSWZxn4Dpk4BIO_f9Q7D_Hmjj cfJje7_ojBk4_eblSuHWTEvx1a4wAebMa.v7zk7AhZDCpJtcNHCv2JootxIm DjxWyGkZijlVgDSLq4geRoKFLcKEEBa9aFxvDKRc.roZoYkFctoQ7cdo6YTB SascwndClW5.j8bLBnFZoJ2Mxt6TCpZuj4CY.hboD28XjNYLLb.8cFjAZxU8 MLq7u7WvAV2jAYJazzwr1MGwZ9vyVerUDoG.JsuyliRI6a6DZJb1cDdSDCjo Kccvww00FILaqrEnPVePvFtDSttvOWUuZn7ze_Q5K133FKMLnuXSPBtzWUih LW0pGQw7OP1nQ0VmVFbx2BNC960vE9tJm_CMA3ishPLVFFvAKL17tMVg5wyg uaNNdKVPspE98ACEa3I5Il3t_UfSCAp5KMv2EyDMW2zjKL6n0eE_LX8tl3sD .bqqUpraqVScbq6DvMeVf0NAtOUS_26YF3Z80836FVBfAaq8ToA7b6XRn9hd 6OuTy3GcUYGIsT7wSo.bd0miC_cnpxZvluO_n3BtPQaKQn.8vHXuPADmPP6f qFIwuDwgTTNHswEcIMnE5UxrTwZf6c_8Y7mSBgu2PifqzI3eGYa8uzBxnhwo kO.tPyN7xHIiItGmYIGdyrAkfDU4GHP5K85YnIg3t8lPYf_kjOsUJ06R.wMU CRs376FdB5B1NQVUTYm24uSnPdySYO25kbhDvW.W7yMtoieCtDkooOnao37S MsFyBKFC0Qwj6.MoHdcQepMpX3VwNctzEkhBox5nTCzCX.2TOCqYyUsZt6tB V3saPCIfqhPXV1MQaekgPieY3eXvgvvhmNShTfaNfyVaWc33Z4fDgDvonGxD cJAqZpFoEtEeTPA_waApKf6xyUREwHo2hRCcBBKvqjSCH4bOCZVp3MgHGlbO IXD21ILfZkriPVLcVSSgTgOXyOm8FHBCc7jRdMNtDGcwDUtv5laMl384wpZJ Jjat6KXY6E_jTc7HMDcxjMsj8NTHAkAai6SSpzSunh2b01pW.gQkQGGSWaz9 NNH3B1df4NOUPxJjaTtCvfjIvjI.sOkJZCFDMj5YEl9HBM7RmeUOClZYcI4p UZuWG29UK3QxN8U1.edgLIx2sxTG.by8g8RdzB299ZJUkvsc78EnKVSBqagb pp2UnUVqOuwqBSY9qTUJ.khLCpYTqLifpFe_ONAE.fUkBcP3ock56mWAwYKM uOvZzoOLB2MWDXfMMKErA_Z3bA0ajiTllzp3eEmJSoq9LEJVSE18TwHMpMOs BazjQDN0R2D6qG7eExQD2NTDX9NrxWb5WFqfose_YWw99V7RkPCaZyDQZAz. 4gJwObcZ7jeoYzAizbfauVVKx4uXlKqYbrwAj0y8R23hztAZJnO.qBQT1Pqo naWVOgEx2qTVJRJuxgmoLRfBfVe1JxwvDDGdzDiDLnXTUs6EbvZ3c.2P2Kpi _OpQJboGXJr1gB9kHZoJBJ_xD_C0pwv65BqKyl4i0TENxQMfDxbdYcdAWHnU BWykQeqhH.pDksJFXCVtU4JTANjnkJIQ4DELcw-- Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f49.google.com) (74.125.82.49) by mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 04:26:21 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f49.google.com with SMTP id r144so25179425wme.1 for ; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 20:26:20 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=gM3DmzSnyNULyIncZHjmKA/jIdrzjXU09CuPy2NO78A=; b=HMVNsh15+2WiiG3tx3su57ik2KqIDQr7n1M4XqUAK44JMqvBfWMof7AnqFZhc0LX07 uOOaSAozrDxAZCJjVfDSemnsFCr86E9xUdbNksamMn/9yEEEX/1gv3TFCmHGhRp+9iGy 0a+UsI3PrcxLWM9Ho8eeDKaZEoT9OaWHHnZpT+LYwjMCbecHH/IsV9+FarOtYUqCwiYO 6WwvKVQwfU+rezHGAYNhEPUW5pkKoIAe1lQ7Wr6twsCgglJYoz1egt+jeZaD5JN6rYJz anht3PyZtaCde0tm9xvhK8xjx0ESpTx0cbJa7ydBvxDICUiluYlZpOQRdLhq2/KxcnF2 /71A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXI/zcfBnHB15hLqgdCjC2lUQSrwoNTR9OhZHOQhxo2okli7M6lPvxhb/gH6Drlasb5MUDcELXsY+/Y6xw== X-Received: by 10.223.151.99 with SMTP id r90mr9474869wrb.183.1484886380300; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 20:26:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Jan 2017 20:26:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2017 23:26:19 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=f403045d5b103d070b05467f0d78 Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045d5b103d070b05467f0d78 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045d5b103d070905467f0d77 --f403045d5b103d070905467f0d77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Danko pro la diskuto. La nura problemo, quan me havas kun =C2=ABpaperpresil= o=C2=BB, esas ke =C2=ABpaper weight=C2=BB ne esas la sama metaforo kam la u= niversala simbolo di =C2=ABclipboard=C2=BB, ya tre ultra DEFIRS: https://u= pload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Clipboard.svg 2017-01-19 11:54 = GMT-05:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yaho= ogroups.com>: > > > Hodie me pluse laboris. Quale vi povas vidar, la prec= ipua problemo esas > nun la "MediaWiki extension". Ol kontenas centi de fr= azi tradukenda! > > > > > --f403045d5b103d070905467f0d77 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danko pro la diskuto. La nura problemo, quan me havas kun = =C2=ABpaperpresilo=C2=BB, esas ke =C2=ABpaper weight=C2=BB ne esas la sama = metaforo kam la universala simbolo di =C2=ABclipboard=C2=BB, ya tre ultra D= EFIRS:


2017-01-19 11:54 GMT-05:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] <l= inguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Hodie me pl= use laboris.=C2=A0 Quale vi povas vidar, la precipua problemo esas nun la &= quot;MediaWiki extension".=C2=A0 Ol kontenas centi de frazi tradukenda= !



=
=

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Samtempe ol furnisas respondo por la distraktita = kritikeri qui objecionas a ni ta vorti, quale se oli apartenus a la linguo = e devus havar la dezinenci e la acento dil nomi komuna. Per quo *Profilakto= l*, *etil* ed altra vorti kemiala apartenas a Ido plu multe kam *Kashmir*, = *Kamerun*, *Bengal*, *Portugal*, *Tonkin* e. c. qui havas nek la acentizo, = nek la dezinenci dil Ido vorti komuna? (Sub *Acento Tonika*) Nu, me judik= as, ke ta remarko esas sat bona por preferar =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB vice la tre= repulsenda *heroeno. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-19 18:= 53 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Me ne savas. Me ne trovas la vorto en *Lexiko = di nova vorti* da Robert > Carnaghan (2001), ma ol aparas sen asterisko en = *Radikaro Ido-Germana* da > Ferdinand M=C3=BCller (2007) ed en plura enreta= vorto-libri, mem en ica > Ido-Latina lexiko: > > https://glosbe.com/io/la/= heroeno > > Forsan Robert savas ulo plusa. > > GN > > > > 2017-01-18 6:12 G= MT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kande on oficaligis =C2=ABheroeno=C2=BB? >= > >> > > --f403045d5b102b6a2c05467f3af3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB esas nomo komercala, quale =C2=ABPr= ofilaktol=C2=BB. Or yen quon la Kompleta Gramatiko dicis pri =C2=ABP= rofilaktol=C2=BB:

(6) Okazione di =C2=ABProfilaktol= =C2=BB, metan, formol, amin, qui recevas internacione = la acento sur la lasta silabo, on trovas en Progreso, II, 679, la co= nsidero sequanta:

=C2=ABOn devas distingar du kazi= o klasi : la propra nomi, quale Profilaktol, qui esas stranjera vor= ti en nia linguo e konseque havas specala ortografio ed anke acentizo; e la= komuna nomi, qui apartenas a nia linguo e devas sequar la generala = reguli, sive pri la gramatikal finali, sive pri l'acentizo.=C2=BB
=

Ta remarkigo esas guido pri ta nomi stranjera relate Id= o. Samtempe ol furnisas respondo por la distraktita kritikeri qui objeciona= s a ni ta vorti, quale se oli apartenus a la linguo e devus havar la dezine= nci e la acento dil nomi komuna. Per quo Profilaktol, etil ed= altra vorti kemiala apartenas a Ido plu multe kam Kashmir, Kamer= un, Bengal, Portugal, Tonkin e. c. qui havas nek l= a acentizo, nek la dezinenci dil Ido vorti komuna?

(Sub Acento Tonika)

Nu, me judikas, = ke ta remarko esas sat bona por preferar =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB vice la tre rep= ulsenda *heroeno.

Kun kordiala saluti,
G= illes-Philippe

2017-01-19 18:53 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] &l= t;linguoli= sto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Me ne savas. Me ne trovas la vorto en Lexiko di = nova vorti da Robert Carnaghan (2001), ma ol aparas sen asterisko en Radikaro Ido-Germana da Ferdinand M=C3=BCller (2007) ed en plura enret= a vorto-libri, mem en ica Ido-Latina lexiko:

https://glosbe.com/io/la/heroe= no

Forsan = Robert savas ulo plusa.

GN

= =C2=A0

2017-01-18 6:12 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe= Morin gphmorin@gma= il.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Kande on oficaligis =C2=ABheroeno=C2=BB?=


=

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Me havas nula merito pri =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nam me simple e cirkon= spekte imitis Pesch: *bindar*: {tr} Sutar ad-ensemble la kayeri di libro, = inkastrar li en kovrilo kartona di qua la dorso e la platajo kovresas da te= lo, felo, e c. =E2=80=93 AG *nervaturo*: *1.* ( historio naturala) Singla = de la fileti salianta qui quaze branchifas en la limbo di la folio, che ula= planti. Tubo kornatra qua quaze branchifas en la alo di ula insekti. *2.* = (bind-arto) Salianto quan formacas, sur la dorso di libro, la kordeti ye qu= i sutesis la kayeri. *3.* (arkitekturo) Muluro salianta di la aristi di vul= to - di la kaneli di kolono, e c. =E2=80=93 HI *titulo*: *1.* Nomo qua exp= resas distingo pri rango sociala, ofico. *2.* Nomo qua expresas ofico, grad= o. *3.* Indiko di la temo traktata en libro, maxim-multa-kaze kun la nomo d= i la autoro, skribita sur la kovrilo di libro broshita, sur la dorso, sur u= n ek la folii komencala. *4.* Indiko, en la komenco-parto di chapitro, di d= ividuro di libro - di la parto di la temo qua traktesas en lu. =E2=80=93 AF= GHR Me vidas nula problemo kun la logiko di Pesch e di PIV: libro havas un= dorso e du plataji (plata=C4=B5oj). Ma certe me ne esas experto pri librar= to. Se tu deziras chanjar ta defini e kredas, kun certeso, ke =C2=ABspino= =C2=BB esas plu bona kam =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nu, me havas nula problemo kun = to. Mea mento tendencus do nomizar la du kovrili =C2=ABflanki=C2=BB, hahaha= ! Ula defini da Pesch ya esas tre eroroza (Imaginez =C2=ABGanso-de-faces-ne= gras=C2=BB, t.e. migranta ucelo palmipeda, di qua la nomo esas =C2=ABbernak= lo=C2=BB en Ido, e pose lektez la defino di =C2=ABbernaklo=C2=BB da Pesch. = Nu! to esas ridinda ed amuziva). https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/bernaklo = Ni havas devo korektigar nia Idala dicionario neglektata. Amikale, Gilles-= Philippe 2017-01-19 19:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com = [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Gratulo pro tua defino= ! Ol esas mem plu kompleta kam olta lektebla en *Lexiko > di nova vorti* da= Camiel De Cock (1988): =C2=ABdokumentaro pri certen afero o > societo o pe= rsono=C2=BB. > > Nur un punto forsan meritas debato. Qua nomon on donez al = bindita chanto > di libro, sur qua on ordinare imprimas lua titulo e la nom= o dil autoro? En > tua defino tu nomizas ol "dorso", sequante FGI, ma fors= an "dorso" esas plu > apta por nomizar la dopa kovrilo di libro. Me preferu= s nomizar ta bindita > chanto kom "spino", sequante la Angla. En Esperanto,= segun PIV (2esma > edituro, 2002), on nomizas ol "dorso", ma ica nomizo es= as kontestata da > plura experti. Exemple, en la verko *La sekreta miraklo*= (2008) la > Hispana skriptisto Jorge Camacho uzas "spino" por ica senco ed= ofras yena > gloso (hike tradukita da me): =C2=AB*spino*: En libro, parto = juntanta la > kovrilo al dorsa kovrilo, ofte kun imprimita titulo, lektebla= kande la > libro stacas o jacas sur tabulo.=C2=BB (p. 194) > > Esus ya kel= ke stranja nomizar kom "dorso" du diferanta parti di libro! Pro > to me jud= ikas kom preferinda "spino" vice "dorso". Yen la AFGHIR-tradukuri: > > A: *= spine* > F: *dos* > G: *Buchr=C3=BCchen* > H: *lomo* > I: *dorso* > R: =D0= =BA=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B5=D1=88=D0=BE=D0=BA > > > 2017-01-18 2:47 GMT+00:00 Gil= les-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Me probis skribar defino por la vorto "dosiero": >> ht= tps://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/dosiero >> >> Kad ulu povas savigar da me qual= a lu judikas olu? >> >> Predanko! >> Gilles-Philippe >> > >> >> >> >> >> >>= >> >> >> >> > > --001a1144403a82586d05467fa306 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Plezure! Me havas nula merito pri =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nam m= e simple e cirkonspekte imitis Pesch:

bindar= : {tr} Sutar ad-ensemble la kayeri di libro, inkastrar li en kovrilo karton= a di qua la dorso e = la platajo kovresas da telo, felo, e c. =E2=80=93 AG

nervaturo: 1. ( historio naturala) Singla de la= fileti salianta qui quaze branchifas en la limbo di la folio, che ula plan= ti. Tubo kornatra qua quaze branchifas en la alo di ula insekti. 2. = (bind-arto) Salianto quan formacas, sur la dorso di libro, la kordeti ye qui sutesis la kayeri.= 3. (arkitekturo) Muluro salianta di la aristi di vulto - di la kane= li di kolono, e c. =E2=80=93 HI

titu= lo: 1. Nomo qua expresas distingo pri rango sociala, ofico. 2= . Nomo qua expresas ofico, grado. 3. Indiko di la temo traktata = en libro, maxim-multa-kaze kun la nomo di la autoro, skribita sur la kovril= o di libro broshita, sur la dorso, sur un ek la folii komencala. 4. Indiko, en la komenc= o-parto di chapitro, di dividuro di libro - di la parto di la temo qua trak= tesas en lu. =E2=80=93 AFGHR

Me vidas nula p= roblemo kun la logiko di Pesch e di PIV: libro havas un dorso e du plataji = (plata=C4=B5oj). Ma certe me ne esas experto pri librarto.

Se tu deziras chanjar ta defini e kredas, kun certeso, ke =C2=ABsp= ino=C2=BB esas plu bona kam =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nu, me havas nula problemo k= un to. Mea mento tendencus do nomizar la du kovrili =C2=ABflanki=C2=BB, hah= aha! Ula defini da Pesch ya esas tre eroroza (Imaginez =C2=ABGanso-de-faces= -negras=C2=BB, t.e. migranta ucelo palmiipeda, di qua la nomo esas =C2=ABber= naklo=C2=BB en Ido, e pose lektez la defino di =C2=ABbernaklo=C2=BB da Pesc= h. Nu! to esas ridinda ed amuziva).


Ni havas devo korektigar nia Idala dicionar= io neglektata.

Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe<= /div>

2017-0= 1-19 19:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
=
=C2=A0=

G= ratulo pro tua defino! Ol esas mem plu kompleta kam olta lektebla en Lex= iko di nova vorti da Camiel De Cock (1988): =C2=ABdokumentaro pri certe= n afero o societo o persono=C2=BB.

Nur un punto forsan meritas debato. Qua nomon on donez = al bindita chanto di libro, sur qua on ordinare imprimas lua titulo e la no= mo dil autoro?=C2=A0 En tua defino tu nomizas ol "dorso", sequant= e FGI, ma forsan "dorso" esas plu apta por nomizar la dopa kovril= o di libro. Me preferus nomizar ta bindita chanto kom "spino", se= quante la Angla. En Esperanto, segun PIV (2esma edituro, 2002), on nomizas = ol "dorso", ma ica nomizo esas kontestata da plura experti. Exemp= le, en la verko La sekreta miraklo (2008) la Hispana skriptisto Jorg= e Camacho uzas "spino" por ica senco ed ofras yena gloso (hike tr= adukita da me): =C2=ABspino: En libro, parto juntanta la kovrilo al = dorsa kovrilo, ofte kun imprimita titulo, lektebla kande la libro stacas o = jacas sur tabulo.=C2=BB (p. 194)

Esus ya kelke stranja nomizar kom "dorso"= du diferanta parti di libro! Pro to me judikas kom preferinda "spino&= quot; vice "dorso". Yen la AFGHIR-tradukuri:

A: spine
F: dos<= /i>
G: Buchr=C3=BCchen
H: lomo
I: dorso
R:= =D0=BA=D0=BE=D1=80=D0=B5=D1=88=D0=BE=D0=BA
<= br>

=
2017-01-18 2:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=
=

Me probis skribar defino por la vorto &quo= t;dosiero":
Kad ulu povas savigar da me quala lu judikas olu?

Predanko!
Gilles-Philippe
=












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Segun Dyer, semblas ke on licencas ulo.

Me havas licenco peskar, do on licencis a me peskar.

=
Do:
Ta libro licencesas per CC-BY-SA?

2017-01-19 23:22 GMT-0= 5:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Kad on licencas [ulu] od [ulo]?
Me licencis a lu peskar?
Me licencis lu peskar?<= /div>

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

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Lua tradukuro >= por "komutilo" esas "commutator". Angla dicionario dicas ke ico esas "a > = device that maintains the direction of flow of electric current in a > gene= rator or reverses it in an electric motor". > > Por "switch" (elektrala), D= yer donas (verbo) "komutar", e (substantivo) > "cirkuito-klozilo, inter-rup= t-ilo, komut-ilo". Lu ne povis donar plu apta > tradukuro ante adopto di "s= wichar". Se "komutilo" esas "commutator" ol ne > esas "switch" quale troveb= la exemple ye muro di chambro. > > Dyer ne povis donar apta od irga vorti p= or diversa kozi (quale abaniko, > acetono, anorako, aspirino, atolo), nam a= pta vorti ne existis en Ido til > pose. > > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe M= orin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 > 12:52:56 -0500: = > Nu, me nultempe skribis =C2=ABstartilo=C2=BB nek =C2=ABhaligilo=C2=BB! Me= skribis > =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, quale definita = che Dyer... > > 2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [li= nguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua de= fino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice > "acendar" e "extingar", simple= uzez "startar" e "haltigar"...' > > Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata = por startar ed anke por haltigar. Ne > suficas dicar "startilo" o "haltigil= o". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti > povas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo = di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por > startar o haltigar ol. > > Quale me ja= mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo diferas > de swichil= o. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala > aparato, dum ke= komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne > por startar o = haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado. > > Mem se ula linguo o = lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun > swichilo, tala nekla= reso esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona. > > Robert C. > > Gilles-Ph= ilippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 > 18:31:26= -0500: > > Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o haltigar ku= rento por > funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) d= i kurento") > kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar vua "swichar" kun= "komutar" e > "interruptar". Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero= inter la > Franca "commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swi= char". > > La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transitiva. > > Tamen, vua defi= no ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e > "extingar", simple u= zez "startar" e "haltigar"... > > 2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' id= o@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > Kara Gil= les-Philippe, > > Vu skribis: > Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino = di "enswichar" esus "pozar > (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequa= s la defino quan on donis a > "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la e= lektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". > Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exe= mplo? En elektriko, interruptar > elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama k= ozo kam chanjar lua direciono. > > Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988= ) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV > falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o= ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco > di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angl= a vorto "switch"): startar o > haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar = aparato, o chanjar la direciono > (voyo) di kurento. > > La defino di "acen= dar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) > produktar flami, mem nur= mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: > "to inflame (the passi= ons)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke > acendilo esas "lighter". Ic= o esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro. > > Extensar la senco di "acend= ar" por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus > "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale u= zo di swichilo nur komencas o cesas > funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en = mala kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro > forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e= komencar fairo. > > On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas = acendilo por > funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. M= ea punto > precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI must= as solvar > la problemo. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Mori= n gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 > 13:58:15 -0500: > >= Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" = > ed "extingar". > "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li n= ur per du klaki? > Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!" > > La originala senco = restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on > transpozis la senco ad el= ektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti > ad irga aparati elektral= a, ka ne? > "Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez l= a > televiziono." > > Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar",= o pro quo me > konsideras la situeso tote absurda. > > La Angla "switch" t= radukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur > (komutilo) e interrupteur= (inter-rupt-ilo). > Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur se= quante logiko. Or, > pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino = di la nomo switch. > > Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funciona= s, selektus > "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza ka= m > "interruptilo"? > > Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "ensw= ichar" esus "pozar > (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la def= ino quan on donis a > "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-f= luo, di la filo-reto". > Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En= elektriko, interruptar > elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam = chanjar lua direciono. > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido= @avenue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > > Kand= e on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke > la = elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on > "forp= renas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. > Qual= e plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"? > Robert C. > >= Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 = > 16:05:32 -0500: > Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswic= har". On "swichas" > ulo en od ek quo? > > Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? > > = 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolis= to] > : > > Segun quante me savas e memoras, e= n nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata > precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to= turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn > off). > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wik= i/enswichar#Ido > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido > > 2017-01-= 16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] = : > > Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en l= a Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos > analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Fran= ca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" > esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "k= omutar", sive admaxime tota > sinonimo di "komutar". > > Kad on havas infor= mo pri lua adopto en 1926? > > Gilles-Philippe > > > --001a11442cc2cad2d705468046b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ma certe vu preferas =C2=ABswichilo=C2=BB, ka sustenesas = nur da la Angla.

2017-01-19 9:30 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <= linguolist= o@yahoogroups.com>:
<= /u>
=C2=A0

Me trovas nula defini por ica vorti = en la lexiki da Dyer. Lua tradukuro por "komutilo" esas "com= mutator". Angla dicionario dicas ke ico esas "a device that maint= ains the direction of flow of electric current in a generator or reverses i= t in an electric motor".

Por "switch" (elektrala), = Dyer donas (verbo) "komutar", e (substantivo) "cirkuito-kloz= ilo, inter-rupt-ilo, komut-ilo". Lu ne povis donar plu apta tradukuro = ante adopto di "swichar". Se "komutilo" esas "com= mutator" ol ne esas "switch" quale trovebla exemple ye muro = di chambro.

Dyer ne povis donar apta od irga vorti por diversa koz= i (quale abaniko, acetono, anorako, aspirino, atolo), nam apta vorti ne exi= stis en Ido til pose.

Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 12:52:56 -0500:

Nu, me nultempe skribis =C2=ABstartilo=C2=BB nek =C2=ABhaligilo=C2= =BB! Me skribis =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, quale defi= nita che Dyer...

2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [l= inguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


Vu dicas: '= Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar"= e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar&q= uot;...'

Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata por startar ed = anke por haltigar. Ne suficas dicar "startilo" o "haltigilo&= quot;. Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti povas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo= di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por startar o haltigar ol.

Quale m= e ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo diferas de swich= ilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala aparato, dum ke= komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne por startar o ha= ltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado.

Mem se ula linguo= o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun swichilo, tala nekl= areso esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona.

Robert C.
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:31:26 -0500= :

Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o haltig= ar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo= ) di kurento") kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar vua "s= wichar" kun "komutar" e "interruptar". Ma nuntempe= me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Franca "commuter" e l= a Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar&quo= t;.

La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transitiva.
Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar&quo= t; e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar= "...

2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguo= listo] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Kara Gilles-Philippe,
Vu skribis:
Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "ens= wichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule= sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar l= a direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo d= i direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, to= te ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.

Tamen, me refuz= as ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV falias i= ndikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco di "= ;swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"): start= ar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la dire= ciono (voyo) di kurento.

La defino di "acendar" da Pesch= esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) produktar flami, mem nur mikra. (A= nke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: "to inflame (the passion= s)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke acendilo esas "lighte= r". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro.

Extensar la= senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus = "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swichilo nur ko= mencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kazo la kurento, s= e ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar fairo.

= On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por funcion= igar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto precipua esas= ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar la problemo.
Kordiale,
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguo= listo] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500:

Nu, on ja tradukabis &q= uot;switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar&= quot; ed "extingar".
"Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? = on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!"= ;

La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se = on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vort= i ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne?
"Ho ve! La radio informas ke = grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono."

Ma forsan v= u ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me konsidera= s la situeso tote absurda.

La Angla "switch" tradukesas = a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt= -ilo).
Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante lo= giko. Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo = switch.

Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" func= ionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo&q= uot; e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"?

Per vua exempli,= me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) = en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a &q= uot;swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di l= a filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elekt= riko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar = lua direciono.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.'= ; ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Kande on en= -swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuuito elektrala, tale ke la= elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "= forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglaj= o. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch= off"?
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto]= - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500:
Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di = "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo = en od ek quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?

2017-01-16 14:4= 0 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&= gt;:

Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar&q= uot; esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on)= ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).

https://en.wiktionary.org= /wiki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswic= har#Ido

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [l= inguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Pos analizir la defino = di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini= di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" = esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime= tota sinonimo di "komutar".

Kad on havas informo pri lu= a adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe

=

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Ta vorto e ta koncepto existas de pos= *1857*, Ido certe ja havis vorti por expresar la ideo di =C2=ABswitch=C2= =BB, =C2=ABswitch off=C2=BB, e.c. Fakte, yen la defini di la *English-Inte= rnational Dictionary* di 1908! https://archive.org/stream/englishinternati= 00beaurich#page/238/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/internationalen00je= spgoog#page/n124/mode/2up to *switch off* (*current*), komutar *komut-ar,= * to break off, shut off (*current*); *-ilo,* switch, commutator. [DEFIS] = Nu, en 1908! La nura problemo semblas esar, ke mankis vorto por "switch on"= ... Nu, me ne mem savas ka "switch on" existis lore. 2017-01-20 0:54 GMT-0= 5:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin : > http://www.websters1913= .com/words/Interrupter > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/interruptor#Spanish= > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/interrupteur > https://en.wiktionary.org/= wiki/interruttore#Italian > > Ma certe vu preferas =C2=ABswichilo=C2=BB, ka= sustenesas nur da la Angla. > > 2017-01-19 9:30 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@= avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> Me = trovas nula defini por ica vorti en la lexiki da Dyer. Lua tradukuro >> por= "komutilo" esas "commutator". Angla dicionario dicas ke ico esas "a >> dev= ice that maintains the direction of flow of electric current in a >> genera= tor or reverses it in an electric motor". >> >> Por "switch" (elektrala), D= yer donas (verbo) "komutar", e (substantivo) >> "cirkuito-klozilo, inter-ru= pt-ilo, komut-ilo". Lu ne povis donar plu apta >> tradukuro ante adopto di = "swichar". Se "komutilo" esas "commutator" ol ne >> esas "switch" quale tro= vebla exemple ye muro di chambro. >> >> Dyer ne povis donar apta od irga vo= rti por diversa kozi (quale abaniko, >> acetono, anorako, aspirino, atolo),= nam apta vorti ne existis en Ido til >> pose. >> >> Robert C. >> >> Gilles= -Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [lingguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan >> 2017 12:5= 2:56 -0500: >> Nu, me nultempe skribis =C2=ABstartilo=C2=BB nek =C2=ABhalig= ilo=C2=BB! Me skribis >> =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, q= uale definita che Dyer... >> >> 2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@= avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < >> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >> >> Vu d= icas: 'Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice >> "acendar"= e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"...' >> >> Swichilo esas e= lektrala ed esas uzata por startar ed anke por haltigar. >> Ne suficas dica= r "startilo" o "haltigilo". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti >> povas esar u= zata por chanjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por >> startar o ha= ltigar ol. >> >> Quale me ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, k= omutilo diferas >> de swichilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o ha= ltigar tala >> aparato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed= automate, ne >> por startar o haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funci= onado. >> >> Mem se ula linguo o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e ko= mutilo kun >> swichilo, tala neklareso esas desdezirinda por linguo interna= ciona. >> >> Robert C. >> >> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [ling= uolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan >> 2017 18:31:26 -0500: >> >> Voluntez skribar nova = defino (me aceptas "startar o haltigar kurento por >> funcionigar o haltiga= r aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento") >> kun traduki DEFIRS= e me pose povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "komutar" e >> "interruptar". M= a nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la >> Franca "commuter" = e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar". >> >> La verbo "commute= r" esas strikte transitiva. >> >> Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra = problemo: vice "acendar" e >> "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar= "... >> >> 2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguol= isto] < >> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> = Vu skribis: >> Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" es= us "pozar >> (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan= on donis a >> "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di= la filo-reto". >> Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elekt= riko, interruptar >> elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanj= ar lua direciono. >> >> Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swich= ar". (Parenteze, LNV >> falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transi= tiva.) Por me, la senco >> di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "= switch"): startar o >> haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato,= o chanjar la direciono >> (voyo) di kurento. >> >> La defino di "acendar" = da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) >> produktar flami, mem nur mik= ra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: >> "to inflame (the passions= )" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke >> acendilo esas "lighter". Ico = esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro. >> >> Extensar la senco di "acend= ar" por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus >> "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale = uzo di swichilo nur komencas o cesas >> funciono di aparato elektrala, ma e= n mala kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro >> forta, povas ya acendar la aparat= o e komencar fairo. >> >> On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne = uzas acendilo por >> funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opini= ono. Mea punto >> precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke U= LI mustas solvar >> la problemo. >> >> Kordiale, >> Robert C. >> >> Gilles-= Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan >> 2017 13:58= :15 -0500: >> >> Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia ad= opto: "acendar" >> ed "extingar". >> "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on p= ovas extingar li nur per du klaki? >> Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!" >> >= > La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on >> tra= nspozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti >> a= d irga aparati elektrala, ka ne? >> "Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava nova= jo eventis. Me acendez la >> televiziono." >> >> Ma forsan vu ne komprenas = mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me >> konsideras la situeso tote absu= rda. >> >> La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutate= ur >> (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo). >> Nu, me facis ta du der= ivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, >> pos serchado, me ya t= rovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch. >> >> Pro quo me, qua b= one savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus >> "swichilo", min internaci= ona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam >> "interruptilo"? >> >> Per vua exem= pli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar >> (ulo) en cirku= ito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a >> "swichar", t= .e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". >> Ube esas= la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar >> elektr= o-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. >> >> On = Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk >> [linguolisto]= wrote: >> >> Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" = ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke >> la elektro povas fluar tra ol= e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on >> "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito.= To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. >> Quale plu bone on tradukus l= a Angla "switch on" e "switch off"? >> Robert C. >> >> Gilles-Philippe Mori= n gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan >> 2017 16:05:32 -0500: >>= Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" = >> ulo en od ek quo? >> >> Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? >> >> 2017-01-16 14:= 40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >> Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido,= "swichar" esas uzata >> precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) = ed "ekswichar" (to turn >> off). >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswi= char#Ido >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido >> >> 2017-01-16 0= :39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >> Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la= Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos >> analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Fran= ca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" >> esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "= komutar", sive admaxime tota >> sinonimo di "komutar". >> >> Kad on havas i= nformo pri lua adopto en 1926? >> >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> >> > > --001a1148d536dbba8e054682bf68 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <= br>
En la Franca, =C2=ABswitch=C2=BB =3D =C2=ABcommutateur=C2= =BB.


=
commutateur komut.il.o, inter-rupt.il.o
Segun la Petit Robert, interrupteur:

Nom masculin (1857) Dispositif permettant d'interrompre ou de r=C3=A9tabl= ir le passage du courant =C3=A9lectrique dans un circuit.
=C2=A9 = 2016 Dictionnaires Le Robert - Le Petit Robert de la langue fran=C3=A7aise<= /div>

Nu! Ta vorto e ta koncepto existas de pos 1857, Ido certe ja havis vorti por expresar la ideo di =C2=ABswitch=C2= =BB, =C2=ABswitch off=C2=BB, e.c.

Fakte, yen la de= fini di la English-International Dictionary=C2=A0di 1908!
=

to switch off=C2=A0(current), komutar

=
komut-ar,=C2=A0to break off, shut off (current); -ilo= ,=C2=A0switch, commutator. [DEFIS]

Nu, en 1908= ! La nura problemo semblas esar, ke mankis vorto por "switch on".= .. Nu, me ne mem savas ka "switch on" existis lore.

2017-01-20 0:54 GMT= -05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:

2017-01-19 9:30 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolis= to] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Me trovas nula defini = por ica vorti en la lexiki da Dyer. Lua tradukuro por "komutilo" = esas "commutator". Angla dicionario dicas ke ico esas "a dev= ice that maintains the direction of flow of electric current in a generator= or reverses it in an electric motor".

Por "switch"= (elektrala), Dyer donas (verbo) "komutar", e (substantivo) "= ;cirkuito-klozilo, inter-rupt-ilo, komut-ilo". Lu ne povis donar plu a= pta tradukuro ante adopto di "swichar". Se "komutilo" = esas "commutator" ol ne esas "switch" quale trovebla ex= emple ye muro di chambro.

Dyer ne povis donar apta od irga vorti p= or diversa kozi (quale abaniko, acetono, anorako, aspirino, atolo), nam apt= a vorti ne existis en Ido til pose.

Robert C.

Gilles-Phil= ippe Morin gphmorin= @gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 12:52:56 -0500:

Nu, me nultempe skribis =C2=ABsta= rtilo=C2=BB nek =C2=ABhaligilo=C2=BB! Me skribis =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e= =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, quale definita che Dyer...

2017-01-18 12:26= GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= ;:


Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra= problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez &qu= ot;startar" e "haltigar"...'

Swichilo esas elek= trala ed esas uzata por startar ed anke por haltigar. Ne suficas dicar &quo= t;startilo" o "haltigilo". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti p= ovas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por star= tar o haltigar ol.

Quale me ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro e= lektrala, komutilo diferas de swichilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por star= tar o haltigar tala aparato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapide= ge ed automate, ne por startar o haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua fun= cionado.

Mem se ula linguo o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar,= e komutilo kun swichilo, tala neklareso esas desdezirinda por linguo inter= naciona.

Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto= ] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:31:26 -0500:

Voluntez skribar nova defino= (me aceptas "startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar ap= arato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento") kun traduki DEFIRS e= me pose povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "komutar" e &= quot;interruptar". Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter= la Franca "commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. &quo= t;komutar" e "swichar".

La verbo "commuter&quo= t; esas strikte transitiva.

Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua prop= ra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez &= quot;startar" e "haltigar"...

2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-= 05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Vu skribis:
Per vua exempli, me de= duktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cir= kuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "sw= ichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo= -reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, = interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua di= reciono.

Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swicha= r". (Parenteze, LNV falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-trans= itiva.) Por me, la senco di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla= vorto "switch"): startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o ha= ltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento.

La defin= o di "acendar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) p= roduktar flami, mem nur mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo meta= f.: "to inflame (the passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke di= cas ke acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exe= mple sigaro.

Extensar la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar= "enswichar" konfundus "acendilo" e "swichilo"= ;. Normale uzo di swichilo nur komencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektra= la, ma en mala kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la a= parato e komencar fairo.

On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, e= d on ne uzas acendilo por funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra = opiniono. Mea punto precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke= ULI mustas solvar la problemo.

Kordiale,
Robert C.

= Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500: =

Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off"= ; ante lia adopto: "acendar" ed "extingar".
"= Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni = vivas en tante ociema socio!"

La originala senco restriktesis= ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, = on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne?
&= quot;Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televi= ziono."

Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swic= har", o pro quo me konsideras la situeso tote absurda.

La Ang= la "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur (kom= utilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo).
Nu, me facis ta du derivaji se= n konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en= Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch.

Pro quo me, qua bone sava= s quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min = internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo= "?

Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswic= har" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule se= quas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la d= ireciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di d= ireciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote = ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.

On Tue, Jan 17, 20= 17 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&= gt; wrote:

Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en= cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol= . Kande on ek-swichas on "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To sembla= s esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "= ;switch on" e "switch off"?
Robert C.

Gilles-P= hilippe Morin gphmo= rin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500:
Nu= , me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar&quo= t;. On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo?

Ka to esas eroroza An= glajo?

2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] <l= inguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Segun quante me savas e memora= s, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji &qu= ot;enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).
=
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.= wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:= 00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova = Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me ko= nkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por &qu= ot;komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar".
<= br> Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe

=

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Kara samideani,
Me facis deskovro tre grava pri nia li= nguo. Lu plu o min konfirmas mea teorio pri la preskriptivismo di la Pionir= i.

Me balde skribos pri to. Esas nun tre tarda e m= e bezonas dormar.

Tamen, por demonstrar la grava t= emo me bezonas savar la yena detalo:

Kande adoptes= is la vorto neurono?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
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Andora > api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (DFGHP) esas altra kozo. >= aplanatika (P) > apokromatra (B). apokromata? > arterito (P). arteriito? >= astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko? > astroida (P) > atik-ismo (G). atikajo? >= autogamo (B). autogama? > autokrona (B). autokroma? > bekafigo (P). bekafi= ko? > bernaklo-muslo (D). > Botna (H). Botnia? > boyardo (P). boyaro? > bro= muro (H). bromido? > centigrado (P: "dividita a 100 gradi"!) > centrolecito= (P) > ciliaro (P); ciliara (JH) > cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ..."). cinetika= (DFGJH) > decidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?) > deflegmar (ARHP). Sen= co? > deturnar (FJH); de-turnar (D). > devenar (FJHG). de-venar? > > Fonti:= > A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A > B =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti = (1988), listo B > F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon > G =3D lexiko Ido-Germa= na da Feder & Schneeberger > H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana > J =3D plu tarda lex= iko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detaili) > P =3D dicionario da Pes= ch > R =3D Raporto da Roze > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > = > --001a11442cc21cef1c0546832188 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
bronkio > bronkito
asterio > asterito

On Mon, Jan 9, 2= 017 at 5:05 PM, Robert Carnaghan ido@av= enue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= ; wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Yen ula vorti problemoza, prro ke fonti diferas o pro ke nula de= fini esas trovita, o pro altra ne-certeso.
=C2=A0
<= div>aerpinselo = (RH) od aer-pinselo?
aktina (B)
alegreto (AH) od alegr-eto (R)?
al= kado (P) > alkaldo
alkaraneo (B)
amebocita (B). amebocito?<= /div>
anal= itika (HP). analitik-ala?
Andoro (G). Andora
api-pomo (DFJH?). apio (= DFGHP) esas altra kozo.
aplanatika (P)
apokromatra (B). apokromata?
arterito (P). arteriito?
astrofiziko (HP). astro-fiziko?
=
astroida (= P)
atik-ismo (G). atikajo?
autogamo (B). autogama?
= autokrona (B). = autokroma?
bekafigo (P). bekafiko?
bernakllo-muslo (D).
<= div>Botna (H). = Botnia?
boyardo (P). boyaro?
bromuro (H). bromido?
= centigrado (P: = "dividita a 100 gradi"!)
centrolecito (P)
ciliaro (P); cili= ara (JH)
cinetiko (P: "teorio pri ...."). cinetika (DFGJH)
d= ecidua (P: bot.). deciduo (DFR: anat.?)
deflegmar (ARHP). Senco?<= /div>
detu= rnar (FJH); de-turnar (D).
devenar (FJHG). de-venar?
= =C2=A0
Fonti:
A =3D Lexiko di Nova Vorti (1988), listo A
<= span style=3D"font-family:'Tahoma';font-size:15pt">B =3D Lexiko di = Nova Vorti (1988), listo B
F - lexiko Ido-Franca da Guignon
=
G =3D lex= iko Ido-Germana da Feder & Schneeberger
H =3D lexiko Ido-Hispana
J =3D plu tarda lexiko Ido-Franca nekompleta (me havas nula detaili)
P= =3D dicionario da Pesch
R =3D Raporto da Roze
=C2=A0<= /div>
=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=
=

--001a11442cc21cef1c0546832188-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4882 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 4429 invoked by uid 102); 20 Jan 2017 11:01:14 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 11:01:14 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 23457 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2017 11:01:14 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 11:01:14 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 8M9fk70WLDsxK66VW3gsuyV3r.FChuMhSyH_fTF9n6mYJugx Im9NHabow9_bp26AoNp98xuiD5Y7W8.gbkCuCMEmOf4ExrfR8aMk9XtqBlwb kFptZlnJA5LPt4EIrtPoQQOl7MUa6CDnirS9ZSs9naQiACbxMzXS0gQC8Y9T 6fW2rCTAY7VHWc0shV.17dmj6w8p5LgvpHBUIk_7xiyM2AcG3hwLaJqxfXjK vhkt_Vdfvwt8J2IgFEz0k3WhUnummGxLLP_VlE2lcC7IebpYUCH8LcR12Rp2 r6tuAWRC9pcCixRryBjMcVvQIB.i66RZHelKSKeXARtzYqflPsstam904gzD OnVJp.IGKDExhFr6SbFTLiLkg5IVZFeQ4hDoV8BPvdEDhidJX1nv.lLFjx1m ozfeUUwGV8SUH45.czfAf8Ogb3QBceZck5z5WA_cfeUUgexL6cyB67FViURQ 9UO7QZp1fXBvfDjdEMU7y8tBiRPpHyxtQbVHjbRLl0OeiKz.aryG5Wkby5ys uxA2Z6fkYi0czuGpjq83wiB9kbLO_3CH3DGyWokrHLUdttQ8HpUJYlNg2ZN3 Vi7af3hx8Prus_ChbOtynXQrHI7b1A741k33m9kF1KYFiE.fKmBfyViDFHB3 uy2j5lq5TfYs1GyawUYO2W6MRdHtPDSkvsDV51om.LpfrME6jtTFcR0K1A2W o5WCH6ehXWfYrETwcPkZas7xuJyAO6wQcQrp7YALR0vzpZ7oyUO_BpRkOo6Q A0NWp2tI3ozQ_zdyRD4DjHbVgVitbBd0IrbQg6FYkglwlpNsvQPKgrGy1dSW zheSIF0OnfAFl7ITuK66otwlGlwZI1Tr_s0kZOqHmcjYULBWu3VnWBvXb4Ln BvR7fM8vkj2LDprl5MCjGUTsXUPGeBYGduA17jWmy9LUTzbAZ1N_fp09Acsl 38DCAMccMrkrcqPCN7qqly0ZWPe5v4tTu4q9dKfTBACYaxPPDlCe3UzUcUFM Dx8WIchJzWdKM6lk525ciEOxZnpTe1pJ7ARRHpB4m4SCQ9cEcmFNbT3fq91J jgaaCRk5GbaqjqQrz11oWArcf08XtQ5QOJrkbIeL6ERgx.1nKUsXp7OJP9CR fr98BCEBaIjz20BeWG4tD6JrBlV3RGQe_qDmtWWq2WkUkqa_.4YG.jU90Y_0 dbRvqisomALJix0ZtJI5yHMw3Y7O2QloRUkn9OFCP0vkQLz2EdP6b81Ukl4i RWNM0GFFceUyFW1LeLubCGHVZqpid.5VunVHXbGO3Ni6KpzEFf0AhbwYkLeX .ydVIayoUg-- Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f50.google.com) (209.85.213.50) by mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 11:01:14 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f50.google.com with SMTP id r136so49187377vke.1 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 03:01:14 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=pIuYVosCZhxbVe5Sj5T4FAXv9tgLnyU9R012L+FKQBc=; b=NE+B8CQ8rV/c6fUeXtgyPSQcZ0BYKHy/NNbz6osX4cK2yCUsqL+tyAKqLC4v6bgdHy TngejwI3fQCPPjWVhkx6Bc8FJzKDWJJZwQI4rdKMd6cdWlelyNl23VvCSODyZib6wJLF 4b9XvbXtdMrnSgnhKaFyFEQR+lM4+JOWX9pQzkaWl8pHL+Vrdyipoqsc0CRrPehkqk9B hPaLjiOXTL+ek/lriXRT0vny1GiBG/yXDS3+HlEiwH/njfCjd37BG+4YHbgOvo81D+vC qyRIU8oPbihcsKAr63mFb+EPB0EdW2WlrKuuoH7bTVdtxV+AuYMTX8agiE0Wuu+Q1LBl h95A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKV4ofuBB30n3fmIH+FyerxA1uriOKmG/Jo0+YrilHorSaxuoNoWGUTrjxPsmNAtf0ZxcsIx5rP9dgW/Q== X-Received: by 10.31.84.68 with SMTP id i65mr5770011vkb.23.1484909717384; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 02:55:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 02:55:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 10:55:16 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e503a3a72b90546847c41 Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=2WpjEQi24XsrZSHNBhKqL_CoflGQCAzpLFScUNW7FGA7yoywc5U47g X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a114e503a3a72b90546847c41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do me propozas "paper-planko", plu kurta e komoda kam "pinchilo-planketo" e= kontenanta la vorto "papero", same kam en la Franca (*pressepapiers*) e la= Hispana (*portapapeles*). Do "paper-planko" esas quaza mixuro ek la koresp= ondanta vorti AFH. Meajudike, ne esas necesa dicar "planketo" vice "planko"= , do "paper-planko" suficas. 2017-01-20 4:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > D= anko pro la diskuto. La nura problemo, quan me havas kun =C2=ABpaperpresilo= =C2=BB, > esas ke =C2=ABpaper weight=C2=BB ne esas la sama metaforo kam la = universala simbolo > di =C2=ABclipboard=C2=BB, ya tre ultra DEFIRS: > > htt= ps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Clipboard.svg > > > > > > = > > > > > > --001a114e503a3a72b90546847c41 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Do me propozas "paper-plan= ko", plu kurta e komoda kam "pinchilo-planketo" e kontenanta= la vorto "papero", same kam en la Franca (pressepapiers) = e la Hispana (portapapeles). Do "paper-planko" esas quaza = mixuro ek la korespondanta vorti AFH. Meajudike, ne esas necesa dicar "= ;planketo" vice "planko", do "paper-planko" sufica= s.

2017-01-20 4:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Danko= pro la diskuto. La nura problemo, quan me havas kun =C2=ABpaperpresilo=C2= =BB, esas ke =C2=ABpaper weight=C2=BB ne esas la sama metaforo kam la unive= rsala simbolo di =C2=ABclipboard=C2=BB, ya tre ultra DEFIRS:

=

<= tbody> = =










--001a114e503a3a72b90546847c41-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4883 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 28683 invoked by uid 102); 20 Jan 2017 12:00:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 12:00:03 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 23976 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2017 12:00:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 12:00:03 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.47 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: ic6jfyEWLDsfO_tmFnUnyeXBDgqHHmk6w4wFyFUA.U7qbyUP ughwG61cjV3yrUOI3urPQ19uMmol.nA_heqLd7Kw64SIPvd5.sqn73E0P76u Zk7Fy.dR5mJH9yvxn7Z2wkjeFZV_QEBtnmod0MrJ2AW17EYPI3CY5uRm66Eo bkIjXvUYz3BRPinNjdGG2jfi7VgMUNF3UV_GTGbLNHDqeghZyVY0p74JudH7 dGz93wPdzd9eHF.9ki6pk38tszjB6rDRKDlKRtBbkzu4oE_fTPKj3ivFw94Y Uwkdm4YbLL8EoBrUAKblGTX6kfy_EIfE3ZkYZZNvDQyN8omwcT9F.EED5eJU xW40Q_2eIrUNpKcGnDuxJjcbDVVP_TX7AMEVYu15tQsmRtoP8USHoa1UabNB 3iMhigtv64QAM.l0xWOfFjyrfwHYx5TQYOrik5DMGW8eFj7mt_ds2mlmiB_5 bzWVuGRDHm16hUyoTKbRIpw1MhBtAG35YJ2LghZXVpPWt_Q8Mt1SApxKCPNx 8YSxhrWqPOfrLUkC9prDejbgxwHCz4QIGoaq2LZHegHgkSlwkYK3GUcDBd7n ixPUykR0yo92YTjxbstbmDWyZbz9DN4o6nxoJtKA92oBT_C500KLOe5Gr.GG wvfB4Xn50jr58YcfJ9mqpjgwXWrnJyJiZbqzNEdD.MEFLbZlVhIJTh.n9yXF 4yovJLzr0YJSOwEH3iNEeXgJMBfAG0llLGQqollEV97qzamCwsl.P3daKRXN Y4FX.DYmzKTpswVorxoOhrRr6SD7OJ89XX.GDHkD8eWwZohdiCADZPtXhXKt DQsN4z91PUcGpRDXGRtvC8HIDXEkSj_7S_ytLEdfJ9zBTBEYFSm6RwR5N4VT kYwsksBYmFWkYeb_hh4Guk5wxxK2PVhfQTh9hAfn2Vu9QnCBtHTs9gDefCD8 _DLBjVOlnitsI8WNGmTF8sYLodKI3zTP3bHVKTd.xL7P0LxZmCT_PJpWENNT 8DnzggqHZqMybnvz91ZPcP_Uje8k_Y7EvOdqKsIRrxtfK8u3X2fBMnytq9Rc nl3OQ3RZPnE3z3l9PpZydvgw7fsN027zvCguasWTI1yKWQAaAcSP8rcURehJ ZwwF7SwbyM.XdcUg2IVAZ9IoIazKwAocfYX9npHx1V.7yacH9PiXtFIhuyIL sTHvcerXf131FXP15BBYnqk0BkrgeI6NyzT4m7_wNWSOUWjxLPo0ZUXlAGVW .NW_5DSazlKDZXsc4PkRj4cg3N8Zx39vm0xGNuCvDUKXgyupLyvFWwTJWV1V 7Rg9.mHdLX0R5NG3FOfGJ36sp3hTc0XOjjB06NcNGTItx_70Agt4xpTJq2wt DYYyIRywzjXOr1rfikaqXdqOnN_epGn9MDiiH.EYvu5dVAOhow8aDRe8rq.D Q6ussqdBbylfZ7Rm7nf7DeX.tqO7860UbSa0XckKFGcOpG0zXEesdE7qKHIP 9idnQ2UmU4r3Lj_7zB_Dp0JSdtJrKvowa_kzVte6od2kMIFFljzXEgaWDfb3 IZ9NT29L4Tb5bQxjqAhnJKq327tCHnty Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f47.google.com) (209.85.213.47) by mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:00:01 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f47.google.com with SMTP id x75so49928240vke.2 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 04:00:01 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=5R6F+eUm0ZItEbpbTPCiWp2SIYYGQJ8IIILN4Oban8g=; b=QOhYF+J/T3udSM8JVgBN0/m7Y0NDSrhVpPZUjz0yi3PuIe2fPD54rt8s3pqMYctAaR f5p/V12w9rvYEcRbnCIMJqrcJVTK1sWMNHcAAS3tQA2o3+zcDHsOelKfhq1GGTJOTzv1 fgDsHUgYY6Ku5JbHrrbwQ7401YCvm79LvLNWSIdZ0nuL57uqDXG48ry+ehfPwah4b7xq o+PI3/zwM4AvFkjXvgi8xFZDbecS/3gFazmhPs1J2h2Jx28hPn1druPkC63YAf2HPBrf 1htHsZw+07XVVwGWeiBk8B8137XK1lbPsWFt+XHhaePU7TeOlk2oP2TZ7ScoXNg4G8dG FvJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKV6frOR2IZFIX63VD+zlf9WUIto4GPHwLTE++cC/YBg/I8sSj1uT5zOO2XYdIdoRjsbh6lUHsKAMQfsQ== X-Received: by 10.31.84.68 with SMTP id i65mr5880447vkb.23.1484913601167; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 04:00:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 04:00:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:00:00 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e503ab850b305468563a3 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrTGljZW5jYXLCuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=AfkqQi9nD8NwjxJav_n9CwTaVXZ-ZT5YbLzSBbyoQNThnJyaDvACCg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a114e503ab850b305468563a3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On licencas ulo ad ulu. La recevanto di licenco esas licenciario. En la par= tikulara kazo di licenco universitatala, la licenciario tradicionale nomesa= s licenciero ("portanto di licenco"). Do: Me licencis a lu peskar Me lice= ncis pesko a lu Me grantis a lu pesko-licenco 2017-01-20 4:22 GMT+00:00 G= illes-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Kad on licencas [ulu] od [ulo]? > > Me licencis a lu peska= r? > Me licencis lu peskar? > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > = > --001a114e503ab850b305468563a3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On licencas= ulo ad ulu. La recevanto di licenco esas licenciario. En la partikulara ka= zo di licenco universitatala, la licenciario tradicionale nomesas licencier= o ("portanto di licenco").

Do:

Me licencis a lu peskar
Me licencis pesko a lu
Me grantis a lu pesko-licenco


2017-01-20 4:22 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= ;linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Kad on licenca= s [ulu] od [ulo]?

Me licencis a lu peskar?
Me = licencis lu peskar?

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

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Omni nomas = ol "kovrilo". Ica vorto, segun la kuntexto, povas inkluzar la du kovrili (l= 'avana e la dopa) o nur l'avana. Kande on volas indikar nur l'avana kovrilo= por distingar olca de la dopa, on dicas "anta=C5=ADa kovrilo", "fronta kov= rilo" o mem nur "kovrilo", nam por la dopa kovrilo existas la specala expre= suro "dorsa kovrilo" o (min ofta) "malanta=C5=ADa kovrilo". Do praktikale o= n uzas la vorti "dorso/dorsa" por indikar du diferanta parti di libro. To e= sas evitinda nekonsequantajo quan fortunoze remarkis ed esforcas evitar Esp= ista experti, e quan ni preferinde ne endukez en Ido. Pri *bernaklo*. Yen = quale la oficala Ido-dicionario da Hans Cornioley definas la vorto: =C2=ABL= . branta bernicla, certena ganso sovaja; kolo e kapo nigratra, dop la kapo = makulo milunatra e blanka=C2=BB. Nu, evidente Pesch facis "grosa" eroro pri= "bernaklo". Tamen on esez kelke indulgema pri Pesch. Unesme, il esis ne le= xikografo ma interpretisto; duesme, il ofte voyajis, certe laboris hastoze = pri Ido pro tempo-manko, sen *komputero, sen Interreto, uzante artizanala d= efino-karteti, qui tempope intermixesis ed egaresis, e dum Ido-periodo tre = desfacila, kun skarsa moyeni, sen esquado de eruditi ed experti. Lua *situa= ciono do esis tre diferanta de la nia, nam ni, sidante komfortoze en fotelo= , povas per rapidega klikti di *mauso explorar omno, vidar omno, lektar def= ini en plura lingui, cherpar tam multa informi ed imaji kam ni volas e kopi= ar oli tal qual sur nia dokumenti, apene esforcante... 2017-01-20 5:08 GMT= +00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Plezure! Me havas nula merito pri =C2=ABdorso=C2= =BB, nam me simple e cirkonspekte > imitis Pesch: > > *bindar*: {tr} Sutar = ad-ensemble la kayeri di libro, inkastrar li en > kovrilo kartona di qua la= dorso e la platajo kovresas da telo, felo, e c. > =E2=80=93 AG > > *nervat= uro*: *1.* ( historio naturala) Singla de la fileti salianta qui > quaze br= anchifas en la limbo di la folio, che ula planti. Tubo kornatra qua > quaze= branchifas en la alo di ula insekti. *2.* (bind-arto) Salianto quan > form= acas, sur la dorso di libro, la kordeti ye qui sutesis la kayeri. *3.* > (a= rkitekturo) Muluro salianta di la aristi di vulto - di la kaneli di > kolon= o, e c. =E2=80=93 HI > > *titulo*: *1.* Nomo qua expresas distingo pri rang= o sociala, ofico. *2.* > Nomo qua expresas ofico, grado. *3.* Indiko di la = temo traktata en libro, > maxim-multa-kaze kun la nomo di la autoro, skribi= ta sur la kovrilo di libro > broshita, sur la dorso, sur un ek la folii kom= encala. *4.* Indiko, en la > komenco-parto di chapitro, di dividuro di libr= o - di la parto di la temo > qua traktesas en lu. =E2=80=93 AFGHR > > Me vi= das nula problemo kun la logiko di Pesch e di PIV: libro havas un > dorso e= du plataji (plata=C4=B5oj). Ma certe me ne esas experto pri librarto. > > = Se tu deziras chanjar ta defini e kredas, kun certeso, ke =C2=ABspino=C2=BB= esas plu > bona kam =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nu, me havas nula problemo kun to. = Mea mento tendencus do > nomizar la du kovrili =C2=ABflanki=C2=BB, hahaha! = Ula defini da Pesch ya esas tre > eroroza (Imaginez =C2=ABGanso-de-faces-ne= gras=C2=BB, t.e. migranta ucelo palmipeda, > di qua la nomo esas =C2=ABbern= aklo=C2=BB en Ido, e pose lektez la defino di > =C2=ABbernaklo=C2=BB da Pes= ch. Nu! to esas ridinda ed amuziva). > > https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/ber= naklo > > Ni havas devo korektigar nia Idala dicionario neglektata. > > Ami= kale, > Gilles-Philippe > > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --001a11458ba89e58dc054685fa8e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">En Esperanto nulu nomas la= kovrilo di libro kom "plata=C4=B5o". Omni n= omas ol "kovrilo". Ica vorto, segun la kuntexto, povas inkluzar l= a du kovrili (l'avana e la dopa) o nur l'avana. Kande on volas indi= kar nur l'avana kovrilo por distingar olca de la dopa, on dicas "a= nta=C5=ADa kovrilo", "fronta kovrilo" o mem nur "kovril= o", nam por la dopa kovrilo existas la specala expresuro "dorsa k= ovrilo" o (min ofta) "malanta=C5=ADa kovrilo". Do praktikale= on uzas la vorti "dorso/dorsa" por indikar du diferanta parti di= libro. To esas evitinda nekonsequantajo quan fortunoze remarkis ed esforca= s evitar Espista experti, e quan ni preferinde ne endukez en Ido.

Pri bernaklo. Ye= n quale la oficala Ido-dicionario da Hans Cornioley definas la vorto: =C2= =ABL. branta bernicla, certena ganso sovaja; kolo e kapo nigratra, dop la k= apo makulo milunatra e blanka=C2=BB. Nu, evidente Pesch facis "grosa&q= uot; eroro pri "bernaklo". Tamen on esez kelke indulgema pri Pesc= h. Unesme, il esis ne lexikografo ma interpretisto; duesme, il ofte voyajis= , certe laboris hastoze pri Ido pro tempo-manko, sen *komputero, sen Interr= eto, uzante artizanala defino-karteti, qui tempope intermixesis ed egaresis= , e dum Ido-periodo tre desfacila, kun skarsa moyeni, sen esquado de erudit= i ed experti. Lua *situaciono do esis tre diferanta de la nia, nam ni, sida= nte komfortoze en fotelo, povas per rapidega klikti di *mauso explorar omno= , vidar omno, lektar defini en plura lingui, cherpar tam multa informi ed i= maji kam ni volas e kopiar oli tal qual sur nia dokumenti, apene esforcante= ... =C2=A0

2017-01-20 5:08 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe= Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguo= listo] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0=

Plezure! Me h= avas nula merito pri =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nam me simple e cirkonspekte imitis= Pesch:

bindar: {tr} Sutar ad-ensemble la ka= yeri di libro, inkastrar li en kovrilo kartona di qua la dorso e la platajo kovresas da telo, f= elo, e c. =E2=80=93 AG

nervaturo= : 1. ( historio naturala) Singla de la fileti salianta qui quaze bra= nchifas en la limbo di la folio, che ula planti. Tubo kornatra qua quaze br= anchifas en la alo di ula insekti. 2. (bind-arto) Salianto quan form= acas, sur la dorso d= i libro, la kordeti ye qui sutesis la kayeri. 3. (arkitekturo) Mulur= o salianta di la aristi di vulto - di la kaneli di kolono, e c. =E2=80=93 H= I

titulo: 1. Nomo qua exp= resas distingo pri rango sociala, ofico. 2. Nomo qua expresas ofico,= grado. 3. Indiko di la temo traktata en libro, maxim-multa-kaze kun= la nomo di la autoro, skribita sur la kovrilo di libro broshita, sur la dorso, sur un ek la fo= lii komencala. 4. Indiko, en la komenco-parto di chapitro, di dividu= ro di libro - di la parto di la temo qua traktesas en lu. =E2=80=93 AFGHR

Me vidas nula problemo kun la logiko di Pesch= e di PIV: libro havas un dorso e du plataji (plata=C4=B5oj). Ma certe me n= e esas experto pri librarto.

Se tu deziras chanjar= ta defini e kredas, kun certeso, ke =C2=ABspino=C2=BB esas plu bona kam = =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nu, me havas nula problemo kun to. Mea mento tendencus d= o nomizar la du kovrili =C2=ABflanki=C2=BB, hahaha! Ula defini da Pesch ya = esas tre eroroza (Imaginez =C2=ABGanso-de-faces-negras=C2=BB, t.e. migranta= ucelo palmipeda, di qua la nomo esas =C2=ABbernaklo=C2=BB en Ido, e pose l= ektez la defino di =C2=ABbernaklo=C2=BB da Pesch. Nu! to esas ridinda ed am= uziva).



=


<= td>








=

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Maxim multa homi uzas la vort= o sen konciar o mem sen savar que ol esas origine nomo komercal. En plura l= ingui (ne nur Romanala) ol aquiris mem finala -a. Me havas nula problemo pr= i "heroeno" e same pri "heroino" (quankam olca konfliktas kun "hero-ino"). = Inter la du ("heroeno" e "heroino") me preferas l'unesma (por evitar homoni= meso), ma me aceptas anke la duesma (malgre la homonimeso). 2017-01-20 4:3= 8 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Nu, =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB esas nomo komercala, q= uale =C2=ABProfilaktol=C2=BB. Or yen quon la *Kompleta > Gramatiko* dicis p= ri =C2=ABProfilaktol=C2=BB: > > (6) Okazione di =C2=ABProfilaktol=C2=BB, *m= etan*, *formol*, *amin*, qui recevas > internacione la acento sur la lasta = silabo, on trovas en *Progreso*, II, > 679, la considero sequanta: > > =C2= =ABOn devas distingar du kazi o klasi : la *propra nomi*, quale > Profilakt= ol, qui esas stranjera vorti en nia linguo e konseque havas > specala ortog= rafio ed anke acentizo; e la *komuna nomi*, qui apartenas a > nia linguo e = devas sequar la generala reguli, sive pri la gramatikal > finali, sive pri = l'acentizo.=C2=BB > > Ta remarkigo esas guido pri ta nomi stranjera relate = Ido. Samtempe ol > furnisas respondo por la distraktita kritikeri qui objec= ionas a ni ta > vorti, quale se oli apartenus a la linguo e devus havar la = dezinenci e la > acento dil nomi komuna. Per quo *Profilaktol*, *etil* ed a= ltra vorti > kemiala apartenas a Ido plu multe kam *Kashmir*, *Kamerun*, *B= engal*, > *Portugal*, *Tonkin* e. c. qui havas nek la acentizo, nek la dezi= nenci > dil Ido vorti komuna? > > (Sub *Acento Tonika*) > > Nu, me judikas,= ke ta remarko esas sat bona por preferar =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB vice la > tre = repulsenda *heroeno. > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > --001a1142619c9702860546864045 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, meajudike, "heroin&quo= t; ne esas komparebla a "Profilaktol", nam l'unesma ja de tre= longe ne judikesas kom nomo komercal. Maxim multa homi uzas la vorto sen k= onciar o mem sen savar que ol esas origine nomo komercal. En plura lingui (= ne nur Romanala) ol aquiris mem finala -a. Me havas nula problemo pri "= ;heroeno" e same pri "heroino" (quankam olca konfliktas kun = "hero-ino"). Inter la du ("heroeno" e "heroino&quo= t;) me preferas l'unesma (por evitar homonimeso), ma me aceptas anke la= duesma (malgre la homonimeso).

2017-01-20 4:38 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Ph= ilippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [= linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

=
Nu, =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB esas nomo komercala, quale =C2=ABPr= ofilaktol=C2=BB. Or yen quon la Kompleta Gramatiko dicis pri =C2=ABP= rofilaktol=C2=BB:

(6) Okazione di =C2=ABProfilaktol= =C2=BB, metan, formol, amin, qui recevas internacione = la acento sur la lasta silabo, on trovas en Progreso, II, 679, la co= nsidero sequanta:

=C2=ABOn devas distingar du kazi= o klasi : la propra nomi, quale Profilaktol, qui esas stranjera vor= ti en nia linguo e konseque havas specala ortografio ed anke acentizo; e la= komuna nomi, qui apartenas a nia linguo e devas sequar la generala = reguli, sive pri la gramatikal finali, sive pri l'acentizo.=C2=BB
=

Ta remarkigo esas guido pri ta nomi stranjera relate Id= o. Samtempe ol furnisas respondo por la distraktita kritikeri qui objeciona= s a ni ta vorti, quale se oli apartenus a la linguo e devus havar la dezine= nci e la acento dil nomi komuna. Per quo Profilaktol, etil ed= altra vorti kemiala apartenas a Ido plu multe kam Kashmir, Kamer= un, Bengal, Portugal, Tonkin e. c. qui havas nek l= a acentizo, nek la dezinenci dil Ido vorti komuna?

(Sub Acento Tonika)

Nu, me judikas, = ke ta remarko esas sat bona por preferar =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB vice la tre rep= ulsenda *heroeno.

Kun kordiala saluti,
G= illes-Philippe

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Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:54:58 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroAACxa7gAAaF4CAAAKaT4AAFBAAgAAShYCAABQWw4AABRAAgAK1WMyAACQ/AIAAER4KgAAKYGqAAMOCgIAAbKwAgAAgqPg= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:54:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:2451B1365120C91E80FB5B0973A53322D25FE919366AC3CD052C60509661FA46;UpperCasedChecksum:C47C0B1FC3C8478216E943677B5F130404924DE0A350B7EB9DAD1808B0E41C66;SizeAsReceived:9256;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [1bjtoQAIgn7LIuguQaIJlf3MZfWbq7UV] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR02HT099;7:fRuMxSRR4gE7eG1qklsx86j+miTeM8G/ba9e2lYu2UNCgqEdY0A8BibGViyrAE8hF4sKNhjlCz3AQVQBUHPd1lDMLvQ3tlf2jq1yH6V3VlHFZ+PAwoQe4DipX5TP6F7RCUbTCxiiQiVhzuuWxUOQWolzoV/osWfnKj5iSqiNOYa6SBtj5r0aA0nY4rGDTz0Ec3OgVd7xqnToRNzf8/423yxJJ5Cam8dXAK6r7Uu8uNYWZdK9P53MNDyRXViaoROzKXfsY/VrehRvgKv2vA8LL5F/hVDvyst34zarlY89AMmciFPMV26MbFNUSU9YgyqvJ6Or1NYlxRL0I3VX2apeAVevKv/LbIGbwlNML90ty9S0ghpksXZO1s3pFEPcItLFNriJxV3HnSgt0qH6R916N4S9PhR2rN4+1Q4NJqJ9QAoifwykxZDxbZt6RxJq201bO1Itl08mrw5YZxhF8m760w== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:10.152.12.60;CTRY:;IPV:NLI;EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR02HT099;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5471ab75-b5f9-4215-0535-08d441338a62 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(5061507293)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:VE1EUR02HT099; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:VE1EUR02HT099;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:VE1EUR02HT099; x-forefront-prvs: 01930B2BA8 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB139787E498A77F45A2F676D7A4710DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 20 Jan 2017 12:54:58.4938 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1EUR02HT099 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Jan 2017 12:55:03.0107 (UTC) FILETIME=[6A8D0130:01D2731C] Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=c0t7ymX1Vf36CK-4AYOvpJC6V6ovYjyOgltZJWHvnHo X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB139787E498A77F45A2F676D77A4710DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paper-planko semblas a me sencoza propozo e bona kompromiso. Nur neklara = en mea mento, esas kande en Ido on MUSTAS uzar -et kun radiko, e kande on d= arfas uzar la simpla radiko. La radiko plank- signifikas anke angla "plank= , floorboard" ec., multe plu granda e pezoza kam "clipboard". ___________= _____________________ From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 20 January 2017 10:55 To: Linguolisto Sub= ject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Do me propozas "paper= -planko", plu kurta e komoda kam "pinchiilo-planketo" e kontenanta la vorto = "papero", same kam en la Franca (pressepapiers) e la Hispana (portapapeles)= . Do "paper-planko" esas quaza mixuro ek la korespondanta vorti AFH. Meajud= ike, ne esas necesa dicar "planketo" vice "planko", do "paper-planko" sufic= as. --_000_DB5PR03MB139787E498A77F45A2F676D77A4710DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Paper-planko sembla= s a me sencoza propozo e bona kompromiso.


Nur neklara e= n mea mento, esas kande en Ido on MUSTAS uzar -et kun radiko, e kande on da= rfas uzar la simpla radiko.  La radiko plank- signifikas anke angla &q= uot;plank, floorboard" ec., multe plu granda e pezoza kam "clipbo= ard".



From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguol= isto]
Sent: 20 January 2017 = 10:55
To: Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bez= onata por VisualEditor
 


Do me propozas "paper-planko&qu= ot;, plu kurta e komoda kam "pinchilo-planketo" e kontenanta la v= orto "papero", same kam en la Franca (pressepapiers) e la= Hispana (portapapeles). Do "paper-planko" esas quaza mixu= ro ek la korespondanta vorti AFH. Meajudike, ne esas necesa dicar "pla= nketo" vice "planko", do "paper-planko" suficas. 
--_000_DB5PR03MB139787E498A77F45A2F676D77A4710DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4887 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 18875 invoked by uid 102); 20 Jan 2017 21:43:11 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m12.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 21:43:11 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 19461 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2017 21:43:11 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 21:43:11 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: DY7bwUAWLDveBppvndW.lC1LqxBLEFTBjRS8G8sKCTD4HPEe M7xWIiaH3Qr.JsexsXbJsy_vRmxNHGKBvsmjBLGssWr3_XQyKJxOrv_Rzgpn mQcv48iWYz3XIckUeIcn3oLMTLRCEF.YOtwR347vtR.3VJoFlToGD8nLLJuO 3uw92YG9Hd2K7Ayby05eRNrEdEJiuwLZQG7HvvGJnUiItJGwy37.TxVriuCW 2LO9_jhipeJTAmHwYDiZnwol9JvP2DlYbasTnoVWZ4F4DMri72ACz1YZ3p6r dtjzR84UkE7lnDVhLdMRtKsoQlRExv7NY.B_fikYL_._V9HRK.js.gBUrAbI Fzxc09ikV5ykKpk6GQ3mGdfP.mWnA3NGGEA9rXlo0cBMVXMSRepzwgJPzEkO vhBwe0RI1LrFEswYBOrXdHVk021cRpPHiiVAbWU7HAiP2ipy7am8VREQh.yj uj53F4dLal0irdIgpvARSbzvETIZHcbMxCux6kKksUiMYgAv9.Nt1R8TiC_3 2K4.D5MSyOrVuCKCfOqJXJa2T33K.HOPewE7tqn.civTVHQ7O5nJAQQugWdj 9qxAVFjcdfVxO_hLTcHThLwophj_nmEQTuEp4wNYFfRSw1XFKqI923NaC76M bgST2nrA60uz5uDJPdG_sY7kZ7tNReqS8YUxJbbkSGaq.BOJr9B7ocNhINli kmHE7B5_6poKvSCjKOelTZBQq85YXJ2d3d6OB9wIdqzmXXwVs0y.5W0ZvxOh W194glXBVSanT_uOhI2Q7HJ4gMnZwYpiIZSKfV_8NWLJgGQK9luQZUDMYf0z 3H5OFCod.QdJBY2dy4HKg3HwCMuu0RKaEEydCryZiePWKHgQn4Jr2igpbZeV fzs7YOcu4XFsKsBffLarrvdokBxwzMo2oj82U0Q4nL_rGd_hwwfVl5Ty.O3r rpfsWC1_B0YHoopghu8MDF2XCchbN3Xj70443E2w13ee1xOqcynpNDz8BVPp q8ib2CBRtE5gX2phj.dFk1z8hwdY5v2y.SxCVawqQ3wijbOyxZuo8ttBwUtM Na.lL8K9d6FD1NiFmfWaqsXb9fAVs34AfFpKd2iZijjPzckCPmLPfKk3Mp1y P3ZfjV7bqhLa0QDzUx4DoBp_ulsHbqCVMtpJln9MJiqd3PCdcfQ4CoGg.XK2 nmo8_oVpbrVxo_NmOhnpQskOAUZWW8RyfyVihVHUfzsgDUTTk8Zop2iy2xBI Bp5wTdJXroAqpNVIE1dRPCu2_gl3lCMSOduCRkjSLcKUtqY4AlIMCLXVUcSt AShA8qqPpQ0TsN2XicqSVntW2V1a15cFi3IuM34q0Q-- Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f51.google.com) (74.125.82.51) by mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 21:43:09 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id r126so55162813wmr.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 13:43:09 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=mlR+rgUN+i8M9LIGHc+ffV0w6hnKiyZ8d8syZngKasI=; b=T3ENXWzkrww7IegMQaMIks//vR/g+Hddv+pXHA4BtyGN5zQy+/H4PNg90RGYOvmNwQ 5h7ArWF2du9SM6/UDk/Aogn93JCqz3fd9m5QIqxyPPI/Ynw+aajS5Mm42/tRLUFSdReG pxA44qNRWVhoD5HeQ4BvCQ2JsgcmtLDoSNRURUmoPwYYpMaWFThmb9c0uUNrW8B5yyHZ iHYuoYqVdUKPU/kx8WiktCRtMEUqa+W9MWfG5Q5lsmyyB8rbdRfQhC+tHaykvdWc2EKq phB2HBcW6R9VKuIA8V7d0yuyaUu5X9xuJa+XTmvhI+w3y1kjKNdj8UK51ExschH6oUFd llrA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLsEj0uRnJV4e+jBWof22dcSjeHJVh/JnaKifJvE2mixtlgGGKI4p18hcKawBOxIdd9F3Q8Usx+f6thVA== X-Received: by 10.223.151.99 with SMTP id r90mr13113443wrb.183.1484948272734; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 13:37:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 13:37:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 16:37:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045d5b104e69d005468d7637 Subject: Linguo kun Arogo. X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045d5b104e69d005468d7637 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara samideani, Yen mea lasta artiklo pri *ev* en la vorti Greka. Cafoye, m= e citas du artikli trovita en Progreso. https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/l= inguo-kun-arogo/ Me esperas, ke ta du artikli nun bone explikas pro quo ni= havas =C2=ABnevroso=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrito=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrologio=C2=BB, = =C2=ABnevroptero=C2=BB, =C2=ABglikoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakoluto=C2=BB, =C2=ABkal= idoskopo=C2=BB... vice =C2=ABneuroso=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurito=C2=BB, =C2=ABneur= ologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABneuroptero=C2=BB, =C2=ABglukoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakolito=C2= =BB, =C2=ABkaleidoskopo=C2=BB, e.c. Nia linguo ne sempre sequis DEFIRS. M= e nun opinionas, ke ni debatez pri granda reformo: reformo qua selektus siv= e internacioneso, sive etimologio. Nam la nuna stando esas tre mala. Se ni= selektus internacioneso, ni adoptus: *akolito aleurono *aneurismo *aponeur= oso *glukoso *kaleidoskopo *neuralgio *neurastenio *neurito *neurologio neu= rono *neuroptero *neuroso *pleuro *pleurito pleuronekto pleuronektoido Se = ni selektus etimologio, ni adoptus: akoluto (akolouthos, acolythus) *alevro= no (aleuron) anevrismo (aneurusma) glikoso (gleukos) kalidoskopo (kal=C3=B3= s + e=C3=AEdos, calidoscopium) nevralgio (ne=C3=BBron + =C3=A1lgos, neuralg= ia) nevrastenio (neuro-) nevrito (neuro-) nevrologio (neuro-) *nevrono (neu= ro-) nevroptero (neuro-) nevroso (neuro-) plevro (pleura) plevrito (pleurit= is) *plevronekto (Pleuronectes) *plevronektoido (*plevronekt-oido? La "o" t= rovesas nulaloke...) Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe --f403045d5b104e69d005468d7637 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara samideani,
Yen mea lasta artiklo pri ev=C2= =A0en la vorti Greka. Cafoye, me citas du artikli trovita en Progreso.


Me esperas, ke ta du artikli nun bone explikas pro quo ni= havas =C2=ABnevroso=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrito=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrologio=C2=BB, = =C2=ABnevroptero=C2=BB, =C2=ABglikoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakoluto=C2=BB, =C2=ABkal= idoskopo=C2=BB... vice =C2=ABneuroso=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurito=C2=BB, =C2=ABneur= ologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABneuroptero=C2=BB, =C2=ABglukoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakolito=C2= =BB, =C2=ABkaleidoskopo=C2=BB, e.c.

Nia linguo ne = sempre sequis DEFIRS.

Me nun opinionas, ke ni deba= tez pri granda reformo: reformo qua selektus sive internacioneso, sive etim= ologio. Nam la nuna stando esas tre mala.

Se ni se= lektus internacioneso, ni adoptus:
*akolito
aleurono
*aneurismo
*aponeuroso
*glukoso
*= kaleidoskopo
*neuralgio
*neurastenio
*neurito=
*neurologio
neurono
*neuroptero
*neuroso
*pleuro
*pleurito
pleuronekto
pleuronektoido

Se ni selektus etimologio, ni= adoptus:
akoluto (akolouthos, acolythus)
*alevrono (al= euron)
anevrismo (aneurusma)
glikoso (gleukos)
kalidoskopo (kal=C3=B3s + e=C3=AEdos, calidoscopium)
nevralgio = (ne=C3=BBron +=C2=A0=C3=A1lgos, neuralgia)
nevrastenio (neuro-)
nevrito (neuro-)
nevrologio (neuro-)
*nevrono = (neuro-)
nevroptero (neuro-)
nevroso (neuro-)
plevro (pleura)
plevrito (pleuritis)
*plevronekto (Ple= uronectes)
*plevronektoido (*plevronekt-oido? La "o" tr= ovesas nulaloke...)

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
--f403045d5b104e69d005468d7637-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4888 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 31537 invoked by uid 102); 20 Jan 2017 22:38:37 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m8.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 22:38:37 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 13764 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2017 22:38:37 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 22:38:37 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: Pxtc0JMWLDvhZgRchCOfDgQayQ64Y6wiL_rl.tVzFa7f4K1P aV33LwXchfZFO180MHO9EmPJsLTfRMLyx28l6Jr22RSJDO7t8h2UQrSu_5tN PY_PseE2mJ8G1fthwCPNeI0HQd..DamzjCj9YjTJZM5uEvTbx4Jn.9o.RT9j IZH5K9v6ebkjrffd0R2F6g9QL3HCf.OCLpUsFmHi1imnxw6pSTsH0QLnVxt. oTYpf8KFlDXaxO7Bwi3cuvpjDaE0i7rle5F6FwaGxjORJrrLH3MLfZnmp7K0 cpVYk7Uql2TVmuNqspkMel8MXBNWluu93.Nt8PiSC_Z56Go49OcRRf8qQ8rZ bhYvWOybQaQKOMfxQC3snEiZCkm0NyZ6cBjJHTKht6u9SMBKiZunhJ628CaN CXGR41mnq6ixf50uP3L4uq62ft2rcrk0nfOhChRIW3kOF0zSFJkOmmQL1bhn 9Z6YW6HBLPrJsnYBTsQr30wmsCIl_vWV0ef_gyF_mCj5LWOs7YCBuvu3miWX pEeX9MIEiXgLXVmywJBjFJo1_wlHG.tJTZ0j3IBm55x.9EdCL2u_j64m6VJV ibR964oyE0D_rkRmFSG9yMBKRnfCtNeIjLQ8qh45qy9vSyOYboC5zcQCyMtZ sUPbxQgxMgSmjgNRxgUDjog_PPKFXYaRk4HhWhy.VViIIS4MeXvtqTXYqwpF 5m3oY54tAft8IWcPAZ4XUUEKYRVmE8DRJsARwZYwg89iBnebQomSthbaepj4 9oOduS7kZlw63DaRaAwdLbG5rqw7Ev3ttsrqoNNCzK56uE.Y.c5ZapK2MSpU fGpKh.To31s6l.KEZv0vRMB3ZMs73_.zLScThn4jp.IY43JWDm6AGmdsLwbW TvBSsmthsGxxy6jMQ6WFAiW7In_AhxkDrsVtEhJp93ffR4VKtWhqin3cHFO1 EJ7uOsJ98pQo1XlzoNXKiopdC_.ODTXuvuKZgsfvsH9QuOx0V5QCqFRshtie dN2TUbsfAYsdbc2RS8T0JRvF8KOa2diuWVF93CVNuxfzY63UDzu_4tnjOUmP 4jsj2BZYx.Eg03v4QfPcUfExTd7Hroce5RRi3Sg..9pgX1EgG_yKrnqydgDg Ip2u.0b8CRrLs9X0ib7D5b1jqYehte_Rm3UY8lxdGDiG6dkPu7ZIld69IJVD hRztc7mYnSxyxPVnSCCMTFRF32VHConCMYb9SSiKJzGCNFEsfBzSLtf65raY QMM274AKNHReXh8PvsUSD.MdRh41BswFL5h1xbtvp7yZPtmqLKjU6vXD33uz 7faWt5ZDQdtME.SphjFFJCg- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f44.google.com) (74.125.82.44) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 22:38:37 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f44.google.com with SMTP id r126so56601941wmr.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 14:38:37 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=MNdEMCAw8QmI5cdHRnmZKYaKNoXSibs3d1ZNgIfHRl4=; b=BlVaybGWVQkUd7Eh05GQNTv/2rBvYOqNm3FBK6nf08OxHpN4joYLJXW/v4fBmwqsLf uWJ7mBwlT1lp0MIdhIglOgyo+uZs4b8SzEld/OiaxTGBlROHorp4dDq1dAruLClNu7Im vxk95Yx0RDigQHcYn5kuHA1vOzM5g5eefFimOymxRPzYQiOc0yCuZkCI7A5UkEtBsueR br6TrTWTeHb+3BrHtFMbb3M1/K70gN0eKcpqmfHibB4ZLxJaKePp4AJ2M2Fe8mTteQ2J hdKKVdU98MQB5BcTYK2Ly7rDcD7ZNQHa+XfjD04qeOzsGMs8ovT3O/SuCg0VpgFfolpI BJlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXImtWUPE+KgVbhH6qMi/e5P1XBWLEYqIAH1jnwU+F3cqE3jfQzu26aalB+KO633QxjOgpiBwkdBagVl9A== X-Received: by 10.28.62.144 with SMTP id l138mr4853072wma.50.1484951916006; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 14:38:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 14:38:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 17:38:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1148d5367650ec05468e4f2d Subject: Re: Ka Pesch esas tro strikta? X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1148d5367650ec05468e4f2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Segun la Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international, agiveso =3D fakultato ag= emeso =3D tendenco aktiveso =3D stando Do Pesch semblas erorir e Dyer semb= las esir justa. 2016-12-29 12:18 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin : > A me, Pesch semblas chanjir la senco di plura vorto por "un= senceso". Ma > tala strikteso semblas tote ideala e poke praktikala (e mem = ulkaze > praktikebla). > > Pri *introduktar*: > *Igar ulu darfar eniror e f= requentor societo, klubo, mondumo, per > prizentar lu kom aceptinda.* > > M= a ka to signifikas, ke la sequanta exemplo da Dyer ne plus esas korekta? > = *Ca libro servos kom introdukto a la temo.* (cf. *introduktar*) > > Pri *ak= tiva*: > *1.* (gram.) Voco aktiva: qua expresas la ago. > *2.* (milit.) Ser= vado aktiva: servado da la armeanigeblo qua esas reale > en armeo, sub la s= tandardo. > *3.* (financo) Debaji aktiva: pri qui onu esas la debario. > *4= .* (komerco) Aktivo: to quon ulu expektas recevor kom debata a lu =E2=80=93= to > quon lu posedas, proprietas. > > Dum to, Dyer simple definas *aktiva*= kom *opozata a pasiva*, e pose > adjuntas la quar supera senci. Do ka to s= ignifikas, ke la sequanta exemplo > da Dyer ne plus esas korekta? > *Aktiva= puero, homo.* (cf. *aktiva*) > > Pri *plastro*: > *1.* Sorto di gipso per = qua la aktoro qua pleas la rolo di Petreto kovras > sua vizajo en la pantom= imi. > *2.* Blankajo quan la mulieri uzas kom fardo. > > Nu, la *Lexiko di = Nova Vorti * da > Camiel de Cock simpl= e definas *plastro* kom *gipso koquita*... Do lu > inkluzas la senco kirurg= iala, pri qua me audas multe plu ofte kam > pantomimi, ka ne? > > Fine, pri= *mujar*: > *(aludante vento, ondi) Produktar bruiso analoga a la klamo mat= ida, > nesonora e longa di la animali bova.* > > Do, nur vento ed ondi pova= s mujar? Bovo ne *mujas* quale lu "mu=C4=9Das" en > Esperanto? > > Pri to, = Dyer esas preske tam strikta: lu restriktas la senco a *venti*, > *ondi*, *= tondri* e *kanoni* (cf. *mujar*). On trovas lo sama en la *Complete > Manua= l* (1919). Do bovi povas nur *bramar*? > > Me trovis plura altra problemi e= n la pasinta yari, ma yen le maxim recenta. > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gill= es-Philippe > --001a1148d5367650ec05468e4f2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Segun la Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international,
agi= veso =3D fakultato
agemeso =3D tendenco
aktiveso =3D st= ando

Do Pesch semblas erorir e Dyer semblas esir j= usta.

= 2016-12-29 12:18 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com&= gt;:
A me, Pesch = semblas chanjir la senco di plura vorto por "unsenceso". Ma tala = strikteso semblas tote ideala e poke praktikala (e mem ulkaze praktikebla).=

Pri introduktar:
Igar ulu darf= ar eniror e frequentor societo, klubo, mondumo, per prizentar lu kom acepti= nda.

Ma ka to signifikas, ke la sequanta= exemplo da Dyer ne plus esas korekta?
Ca libro servos kom int= rodukto a la temo.=C2=A0(cf. introduktar)

Pri aktiva:
1. (gram.) Voco aktiva: qua= expresas la ago.
2. (milit.) Servado aktiva: servado da la armea= nigeblo qua esas reale en armeo, sub la standardo.
3. (fin= anco) Debaji aktiva: pri qui onu esas la debario.
4. (kome= rco) Aktivo: to quon ulu expektas recevor kom debata a lu =E2=80=93 to quon= lu posedas, proprietas.

Dum to, Dyer simple= definas aktiva=C2=A0kom opozata a pasiva, e pose adjuntas la= quar supera senci. Do ka to signifikas, ke la sequanta exemplo da Dyer ne = plus esas korekta?
Aktiva puero, homo.=C2=A0(cf. aktiva= )

Pri plastro:
1.= Sorto di gipso per qua la aktoro qua pleas la rolo di Petreto kovras s= ua vizajo en la pantomimi.
2. Blankajo quan la mulieri uzas kom f= ardo.

Nu, la Lexiko di Nova Vorti da Camie= l de Cock simple definas plastro=C2=A0kom gipso koquita... Do= lu inkluzas la senco kirurgiala, pri qua me audas multe plu ofte kam panto= mimi, ka ne?

Fine, pri mujar:
= (aludante vento, ondi) Produktar bruiso analoga a la klamo matida, nesonora= e longa di la animali bova.

Do, nur vento ed = ondi povas mujar? Bovo ne mujas quale lu "mu=C4=9Das" en E= speranto?

Pri to, Dyer esas preske tam strikta: lu= restriktas la senco a venti, ondi, tondri=C2=A0e k= anoni=C2=A0(cf. mujar). On trovas lo sama en la Complete Manu= al=C2=A0(1919). Do bovi povas nur bramar?

Me trovis plura altra problemi en la pasinta yari, ma yen le maxim recen= ta.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe=

--001a1148d5367650ec05468e4f2d-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4889 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22930 invoked by uid 102); 20 Jan 2017 23:54:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 23:54:03 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 29380 invoked from network); 20 Jan 2017 23:54:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Jan 2017 23:54:03 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: RrYU9DEWLDvENy.yKZ.TwFPkNsZIikiUGUQ76Gr4cFkGWOeP QkVO8UX6krsObb9afNmMEQnvnfLwx1bGLjV8Vo3SxFIpO6HZjmSq.Ni0yTU6 6yEzKBWqtGUJ6kQKUVmu8X7My0wzn0sFxeqgQf2JoWMvwwF8gMSAw2jZwBAD fIQd0ahATAtkXP8PmDldHtA9a8f.NPTCl9wvLfPfPoTIjDuEkWmXeHNhijC0 n3SptcunTINkKaJEZoyUnrJkLgky30K4s3Qt4MU0XYi6ik00T9.L_hdDO4SS YOYA0uWEmme0rNAdf7AHgRUuH4_bJXTt_I5F695gE16OaX0KftoYUmmUbydD LzQriUDt0P87u91ed97vGdrkXvV78zKVqBoYDN3WvDWgvee9G2dubssaNdM0 9bT79CD.I8yfS9nWJiI_UNTWSMoNNsf143kaP3t8imyLMm0fqa3BTlDCBI5f G2jsrvQhXiYPq4UK58r22z34XjOQr6mN2A3_4wst_hsGm30mq8TfKqciKpwI VigHRoeAziqj_d4dvQ2PjViDBumH9Ai9.oLc37C9K.RbG6auIYNlmcrJ_ZgQ hLXGAFh8hKL2UxhE7uaYFa1EgjDgdsOaUbMPFlR7vbTIFlZmwMEOIXqfodpk pFh.JJc1JwHYkr2pQubInuH7G9Es5ik5TBIcVYXtncarn6Gav3NrX1Wxern_ F.HjGvUPtG7O5eeR5_LdPKz19VCH7P8Ie8HlPkiQsc_1Kte4HMW9HiAxoCCF 8w8KeGozKX72QjaDpJaCHAikzT4Wr9BjbW0FTdra7gBWqiyHQipBYMiqoQG0 4Oae5wVuVMSb6i982ger1qjFx3Liue_ZdkhPtyZYjt3QPl8oaD3nTNPnkOpz BMmYHX9JUJlnCuYrLai4QHu_j3_w1VEMJiR7_vkvOaktObWvyxI8x7VvG7si rskxafJvy3U_BxiNVOZFQHSR0_YtwptLNHEKoLPFi7ZZYyVPF36BFyluBJ4I WkT5r3tFq1bI9TDYG3chQ4LO09TJEZ8kU5UhOc9iCijxEaQu7cwo88WCzSjg rppMcLBkeMluRg_nffKdEH7MQ.7Z95POdPb1rGALPosO.0iOtWLlEOoF0lJP 24VYvr9olWkua8QFyV.P9gT3x74c4X2AfvsAsc1mTB1PAkxflW40dBbZ9ejZ fspiXlrxJFarvdBNC9Fm7sUaG_RISNFJ5rRlsycj76ox.uJX2mrAUJZDLgWZ NSrEE0AZel1naZKlkZ5Sj2M7qXMjsSDdMCnm5iKMsoU0uzzHEguX7h8VYHAZ Kj4.baC7Y80xrbE0ydNvy7V_1lXrfdKeJPjdeeW8edRfXa5MCAuNI6gRqdcu c6kW5N6WT9Pfem3bKYJm5.s75rDA3zh30B6YHYfC3EEoOHXMnA4tC5M8ZyRi 8UlqGdKY2Rof4zHjU5XW.LvLyls1wSbJTLBhWAFwIk5kbGDAchgrZLO2noA_ dc51HACXjr.7SOZ1fePEE1jDpCsk6dN_Y5uv_D95o_O1auwljMIFn50IuM8i MMMH.j7rv6ctTJjp6a7uJFLKV5fP4u_GYFq9KzaJ3_9WZKmZCCMQ1xHgjTCq 680FDvypdiwgwYuczB7knVfe56a. Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f41.google.com) (74.125.82.41) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 23:54:03 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f41.google.com with SMTP id c85so58067550wmi.1 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:54:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=yNx4WxHJhby6Xmxo2Ml30W6+pUt8627aPS8UxuoGlBQ=; b=FGYoLnaBFS60LflMLCQbeSloBSyrCIj6XndVaNq8GUpXyGBCMmsPBR+5X3ky99k1HC Ys/wPyGertHABWtZ4qD2OHUv66x4M4vRHXod1iGc0iKUC1Ci/AHpXEEeXUhnB+ODg7GM ciyScBKrWYOvFpbUNn3FMwPTCVx8ULb295pKR7c+C5gOUutrRDr0ASijknvVn8sk1cZz DcdGNvojXSkp9LCL1METBEqiQYJyBcU9wYcO6fGuO++VpUJk3VEYCY0U65ouk072QkOo /rympLekCWwtjw0rR62XGVtRObh35YtxVSrMeXnfHX/OJtraC31ivvcXCnT72BbAV4rs HQ8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIsz7aeKXpKVs7scS8G+e2r48QykO8Y5yYgb5T+SxvOqfPc8AXh+DMdiRxguD1Mf0AOo0+Y39ut7l9X3g== X-Received: by 10.28.92.83 with SMTP id q80mr5472474wmb.69.1484956442179; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:54:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 15:54:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 18:54:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1145b04a3e3f7e05468f5d46 Subject: Re: [linguo] Heroeno X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1145b04a3e3f7e05468f5d46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu, til nun Esperantujo uzas =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB, mem se lu teorie konflikt= as kun =C2=ABhero'ino=C2=BB. Vorti tal quala =C2=ABkarabino=C2=BB, =C2=ABr= osmarino=C2=BB =C2=ABserpentino=C2=BB, e =C2=ABproteino=C2=BB ofras simila = homonimeso... Tamen ni konsiderez la risko di konflikti. Me ipsa nultempe = experiencis konflikto inter la Franca =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (homino= ) e =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (drogo). Me probas trovar kazi di konfli= kto... *orhara heroino di nordala legendi* *la quaza armeo regnis la front= ierala zono ... ed uzis lu anke por exportacar kokaino e heroino a Usa* (ht= tp://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/) Ka, pro tala pavoro pri konflikti e homoni= mi, on devas necese deformar un plusa vorto, *heroeno, quale la tre kritiki= ta =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB? Kad on anke devas reformar nia l= inguo, e remplasigar la vorto =C2=ABpasero=C2=BB, qua adoptesis ante la suf= ixo -er-? Me opinionas ke no. 2017-01-20 8:01 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neve= s gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > N= u, meajudike, "heroin" ne esas komparebla a "Profilaktol", nam l'unesma > j= a de tre longe ne judikesas kom nomo komercal. Maxim multa homi uzas la > v= orto sen konciar o mem sen savar que ol esas origine nomo komercal. En > pl= ura lingui (ne nur Romanala) ol aquiris mem finala -a. Me havas nula > prob= lemo pri "heroeno" e same pri "heroino" (quankam olca konfliktas kun > "her= o-ino"). Inter la du ("heroeno" e "heroino") me preferas l'unesma (por > ev= itar homonimeso), ma me aceptas anke la duesma (malgre la homonimeso). > > = 2017-01-20 4:38 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [lingu= olisto] : > >> >> >> Nu, =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB es= as nomo komercala, quale =C2=ABProfilaktol=C2=BB. Or yen quon la *Kompleta = >> Gramatiko* dicis pri =C2=ABProfilaktol=C2=BB: >> >> (6) Okazione di =C2= =ABProfilaktol=C2=BB, *metan*, *formol*, *amin*, qui recevas >> internacion= e la acento sur la lasta silabo, on trovas en *Progreso*, II, >> 679, la co= nsidero sequanta: >> >> =C2=ABOn devas distingar du kazi o klasi : la *prop= ra nomi*, quale >> Profilaktol, qui esas stranjera vorti en nia linguo e ko= nseque havas >> specala ortografio ed anke acentizo; e la *komuna nomi*, qu= i apartenas a >> nia linguo e devas sequar la generala reguli, sive pri la = gramatikal >> finali, sive pri l'acentizo.=C2=BB >> >> Ta remarkigo esas gu= ido pri ta nomi stranjera relate Ido. Samtempe ol >> furnisas respondo por = la distraktita kritikeri qui objecionas a ni ta >> vorti, quale se oli apar= tenus a la linguo e devus havar la dezinenci e la >> acento dil nomi komuna= . Per quo *Profilaktol*, *etil* ed altra vorti >> kemiala apartenas a Ido p= lu multe kam *Kashmir*, *Kamerun*, *Bengal*, >> *Portugal*, *Tonkin* e. c. = qui havas nek la acentizo, nek la dezinenci >> dil Ido vorti komuna? >> >> = (Sub *Acento Tonika*) >> >> Nu, me judikas, ke ta remarko esas sat bona por= preferar =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB vice la >> tre repulsenda *heroeno. >> >> Kun = kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> > > > > --001a1145b04a3e3f7e05468f5d46 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, til nun Esperantujo uzas =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB, mem se l= u teorie konfliktas kun =C2=ABhero'ino=C2=BB.

Vorti = tal quala =C2=ABkarabino=C2=BB, =C2=ABrosmarino=C2=BB =C2=ABserpentino=C2= =BB, e =C2=ABproteino=C2=BB ofras simila homonimeso...

=
Tamen ni konsiderez la risko di konflikti. Me ipsa nultempe experienci= s konflikto inter la Franca =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (homino) e =C2=AB= h=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (drogo).

Me probas trovar ka= zi di konflikto...

orhara heroino di nor= dala legendi
la quaza armeo regnis la frontierala zono ...= ed uzis lu anke por exportacar kokaino e heroino a Usa
(http://www.reta-vortaro.de/= revo/)

Ka, pro tala pavoro pri konf= likti e homonimi, on devas necese deformar un plusa vorto, *heroeno, quale = la tre kritikita =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB?

Kad on anke devas reformar nia linguo, e remplasigar la vorto =C2=ABp= asero=C2=BB, qua adoptesis ante la sufixo -er-?

Me= opinionas ke no.

2017-01-20 8:01 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= span dir=3D"ltr"><linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0 =
=
=

Nu, meajudike, "heroin" ne esas komparebla a "Pro= filaktol", nam l'unesma ja de tre longe ne judikesas kom nomo kome= rcal. Maxim multa homi uzas la vorto sen konciar o mem sen savar que ol esa= s origine nomo komercal. En plura lingui (ne nur Romanala) ol aquiris mem f= inala -a. Me havas nula problemo pri "heroeno" e same pri "h= eroino" (quankam olca konfliktas kun "hero-ino"). Inter la d= u ("heroeno" e "heroino") me preferas l'unesma (por= evitar homonimeso), ma me aceptas anke la duesma (malgre la homonimeso). <= br>

2017-01-20 4:38 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolis= to] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= u>
= =C2=A0

Nu, =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB es= as nomo komercala, quale =C2=ABProfilaktol=C2=BB. Or yen quon la Komplet= a Gramatiko dicis pri =C2=ABProfilaktol=C2=BB:

= (6) Okazione di =C2=ABProfilaktol=C2=BB, metan, formol, am= in, qui recevas internacione la acento sur la lasta silabo, on trovas e= n Progreso, II, 679, la considero sequanta:

=C2=ABOn devas distingar du kazi o klasi : la propra nomi, quale Pr= ofilaktol, qui esas stranjera vorti en nia linguo e konseque havas specala = ortografio ed anke acentizo; e la komuna nomi, qui apartenas a nia l= inguo e devas sequar la generala reguli, sive pri la gramatikal finali, siv= e pri l'acentizo.=C2=BB

Ta remarkigo esas guid= o pri ta nomi stranjera relate Ido. Samtempe ol furnisas respondo por la di= straktita kritikeri qui objecionas a ni ta vorti, quale se oli apartenus a = la linguo e devus havar la dezinenci e la acento dil nomi komuna. Per quo <= i>Profilaktol, etil ed altra vorti kemiala apartenas a Ido plu m= ulte kam Kashmir, Kamerun, Bengal, Portugal, Tonkin e. c. qui havas nek la acentizo, nek la dezinenci dil Ido vorti= komuna?

(Sub Acento Tonika)

Nu, me judikas, ke ta remarko esas sat bona por preferar = =C2=ABHeroin=C2=BB vice la tre repulsenda *heroeno.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


=

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Omni nomas= ol "kovrilo".* Fi al PIV! http://vortaro.net/#plata%C4%B5o La PIV ne esas= bona fonto pri uzo Esperantista... lu kontenas vorti tal quala =C2=ABliva= =C2=BB e =C2=ABmova=C2=BB. Me esez plu prudenta en la futuro. Ube me povas= trovar informi pri Marcel Pesch? Vikipedio nur dicas ke lu esis =C2=ABanar= kiisto=C2=BB. https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espido Rapide klikante per su= a muso, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-20 7:42 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneve= s64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > En Esper= anto nulu nomas la kovrilo di libro kom "plata=C4=B5o". Omni nomas ol > "ko= vrilo". Ica vorto, segun la kuntexto, povas inkluzar la du kovrili > (l'ava= na e la dopa) o nur l'avana. Kande on volas indikar nur l'avana > kovrilo p= or distingar olca de la dopa, on dicas "anta=C5=ADa kovrilo", "fronta > kov= rilo" o mem nur "kovrilo", nam por la dopa kovrilo existas la specala > exp= resuro "dorsa kovrilo" o (min ofta) "malanta=C5=ADa kovrilo". Do praktikale= > on uzas la vorti "dorso/dorsa" por indikar du diferanta parti di libro. = To > esas evitinda nekonsequantajo quan fortunoze remarkis ed esforcas evit= ar > Espista experti, e quan ni preferinde ne endukez en Ido. > > Pri *bern= aklo*. Yen quale la oficala Ido-dicionario da Hans Cornioley > definas la v= orto: =C2=ABL. branta bernicla, certena ganso sovaja; kolo e kapo > nigratr= a, dop la kapo makulo milunatra e blanka=C2=BB. Nu, evidente Pesch facis > = "grosa" eroro pri "bernaklo". Tamen on esez kelke indulgema pri Pesch. > Un= esme, il esis ne lexikografo ma interpretisto; duesme, il ofte voyajis, > c= erte laboris hastoze pri Ido pro tempo-manko, sen *komputero, sen > Interre= to, uzante artizanala defino-karteti, qui tempope intermixesis ed > egaresi= s, e dum Ido-periodo tre desfacila, kun skarsa moyeni, sen esquado > de eru= diti ed experti. Lua *situaciono do esis tre diferanta de la nia, nam > ni,= sidante komfortoze en fotelo, povas per rapidega klikti di *mauso > explor= ar omno, vidar omno, lektar defini en plura lingui, cherpar tam multa > inf= ormi ed imaji kam ni volas e kopiar oli tal qual sur nia dokumenti, > apene= esforcante... > > 2017-01-20 5:08 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin= @gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Plezur= e! Me havas nula merito pri =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nam me simple e cirkonspekte= >> imitis Pesch: >> >> *bindar*: {tr} Sutar ad-ensemble la kayeri di libro= , inkastrar li en >> kovrilo kartona di qua la dorso e la platajo kovresas = da telo, felo, e >> c. =E2=80=93 AG >> >> *nervaturo*: *1.* ( historio natu= rala) Singla de la fileti salianta qui >> quaze branchifas en la limbo di l= a folio, che ula planti. Tubo kornatra qua >> quaze branchifas en la alo di= ula insekti. *2.* (bind-arto) Salianto >> quan formacas, sur la dorso di l= ibro, la kordeti ye qui sutesis la >> kayeri. *3.* (arkitekturo) Muluro sal= ianta di la aristi di vulto - di la >> kaneli di kolono, e c. =E2=80=93 HI = >> >> *titulo*: *1.* Nomo qua expresas distingo pri rango sociala, ofico. *= 2.* >> Nomo qua expresas ofico, grado. *3.* Indiko di la temo traktata en >= > libro, maxim-multa-kaze kun la nomo di la autoro, skribita sur la kovrilo= >> di libro broshita, sur la dorso, sur un ek la folii komencala. *4.* >> = Indiko, en la komenco-parto di chapitro, di dividuro di libro - di la parto= >> di la temo qua traktesas en lu. =E2=80=93 AFGHR >> >> Me vidas nula pro= blemo kun la logiko di Pesch e di PIV: libro havas un >> dorso e du plataji= (plata=C4=B5oj). Ma certe me ne esas experto pri librarto. >> >> Se tu dez= iras chanjar ta defini e kredas, kun certeso, ke =C2=ABspino=C2=BB esas >> = plu bona kam =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nu, me havas nula problemo kun to. Mea ment= o >> tendencus do nomizar la du kovrili =C2=ABflanki=C2=BB, hahaha! Ula def= ini da Pesch ya >> esas tre eroroza (Imaginez =C2=ABGanso-de-faces-negras= =C2=BB, t.e. migranta ucelo >> palmipeda, di qua la nomo esas =C2=ABbernakl= o=C2=BB en Ido, e pose lektez la defino >> di =C2=ABbernaklo=C2=BB da Pesch= . Nu! to esas ridinda ed amuziva). >> >> https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/ber= naklo >> >> Ni havas devo korektigar nia Idala dicionario neglektata. >> >>= Amikale, >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> = >>>> >>>> > > --f403045d5b10cbf01005468f929f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
En Esperanto nulu nomas la kovrilo di libro kom &q= uot;plata=C4=B5o". Omni nomas ol "kovrilo".
Fi = al PIV!=C2=A0http://vortaro.ne= t/#plata%C4%B5o

La PIV ne esas bona fonto pri uz= o Esperantista... lu kontenas vorti tal quala =C2=ABliva=C2=BB e =C2=ABmova= =C2=BB.
Me esez plu prudenta en la futuro.

Ube me povas trovar informi pri Marcel Pesch? Vikipedio nur dicas ke lu = esis =C2=ABanarkiisto=C2=BB.

https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espido

Rapide klikante per sua muso,
Gilles-Phili= ppe

20= 17-01-20 7:42 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com>:
=
=C2= =A0

En Esperanto nulu nomas la kovrilo di libro kom "plata=C4=B5o= ". Omni nomas ol "kovrilo". Ica vorto, = segun la kuntexto, povas inkluzar la du kovrili (l'avana e la dopa) o n= ur l'avana. Kande on volas indikar nur l'avana kovrilo por distinga= r olca de la dopa, on dicas "anta=C5=ADa kovrilo", "fronta k= ovrilo" o mem nur "kovrilo", nam por la dopa kovrilo existas= la specala expresuro "dorsa kovrilo" o (min ofta) "malanta= =C5=ADa kovrilo". Do praktikale on uzas la vorti "dorso/dorsa&quo= t; por indikar du diferanta parti di libro. To esas evitinda nekonsequantaj= o quan fortunoze remarkis ed esforcas evitar Espista experti, e quan ni pre= ferinde ne endukez en Ido.

Pri bernaklo. Yen quale la oficala Ido-dicionario da Ha= ns Cornioley definas la vorto: =C2=ABL. branta bernicla, certena ganso sova= ja; kolo e kapo nigratra, dop la kapo makulo milunatra e blanka=C2=BB. Nu, = evidente Pesch facis "grosa" eroro pri "bernaklo". Tame= n on esez kelke indulgema pri Pesch. Unesme, il esis ne lexikografo ma inte= rpretisto; duesme, il ofte voyajis, certe laboris hastoze pri Ido pro tempo= -manko, sen *komputero, sen Interreto, uuzante artizanala defino-karteti, qu= i tempope intermixesis ed egaresis, e dum Ido-periodo tre desfacila, kun sk= arsa moyeni, sen esquado de eruditi ed experti. Lua *situaciono do esis tre= diferanta de la nia, nam ni, sidante komfortoze en fotelo, povas per rapid= ega klikti di *mauso explorar omno, vidar omno, lektar defini en plura ling= ui, cherpar tam multa informi ed imaji kam ni volas e kopiar oli tal qual s= ur nia dokumenti, apene esforcante... =C2=A0

2017-01-20 5:08 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto]= <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Plezure! Me havas nula merito pri =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nam me simple e c= irkonspekte imitis Pesch:

bindar: {tr} Sutar= ad-ensemble la kayeri di libro, inkastrar li en kovrilo kartona di qua la = dorso e la platajo k= ovresas da telo, felo, e c. =E2=80=93 AG

nervaturo: 1. ( historio naturala) Singla de la fileti sali= anta qui quaze branchifas en la limbo di la folio, che ula planti. Tubo kor= natra qua quaze branchifas en la alo di ula insekti. 2. (bind-arto) = Salianto quan formacas, sur la dorso di libro, la kordeti ye qui sutesis la kayeri. 3. (= arkitekturo) Muluro salianta di la aristi di vulto - di la kaneli di kolono= , e c. =E2=80=93 HI

titulo: 1= . Nomo qua expresas distingo pri rango sociala, ofico. 2. Nomo q= ua expresas ofico, grado. 3. Indiko di la temo traktata en libro, ma= xim-multa-kaze kun la nomo di la autoro, skribita sur la kovrilo di libro b= roshita, sur la dorso, sur un ek la folii komencala. 4. Indiko, en la komenco-parto di c= hapitro, di dividuro di libro - di la parto di la temo qua traktesas en lu.= =E2=80=93 AFGHR

Me vidas nula problemo kun = la logiko di Pesch e di PIV: libro havas un dorso e du plataji (plata=C4=B5= oj). Ma certe me ne esas experto pri librarto.

Se = tu deziras chanjar ta defini e kredas, kun certeso, ke =C2=ABspino=C2=BB es= as plu bona kam =C2=ABdorso=C2=BB, nu, me havas nula problemo kun to. Mea m= ento tendencus do nomizar la du kovrili =C2=ABflanki=C2=BB, hahaha! Ula def= ini da Pesch ya esas tre eroroza (Imaginez =C2=ABGanso-de-faces-negras=C2= =BB, t.e. migranta ucelo palmipeda, di qua la nomo esas =C2=ABbernaklo=C2= =BB en Ido, e pose lektez la defino di =C2=ABbernaklo=C2=BB da Pesch. Nu! t= o esas ridinda ed amuziva).


Ni havas devo korektigar nia= Idala dicionario neglektata.

Amikale,
G= illes-Philippe











=
=

<= /p>


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Bone, danko!

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 7:00 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
= =C2=A0

On licencas ulo ad ulu= . La recevanto di licenco esas licenciario. En la partikulara kazo di licen= co universitatala, la licenciario tradicionale nomesas licenciero ("po= rtanto di licenco").

Do:

Me licencis pesko a lu
Me grantis a lu pesko-licenco

= <= /font>

2017-01-20 4:22 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

<= /p>

Kad on licencas [ulu] od [ulo]?

Me l= icencis a lu peskar?
Me licencis lu peskar?

<= div>Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

=
=


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Hugues propozas adoptar l= a du verbi: *venerar* (profunda respekto kun afeciono) e *reverar* (profund= a respekto kun nuanco di timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar *venerdio* a *ve= nusdio*, e adoptar *veneriar* por l'ago sexuala (subst. *venerio*), de quo = venus: *veneriala* plezuro, maladeso, e c. (N.B. *veneracar*, propozita III= , 328, esis jus adoptata: p. 69, decido 328). To konfirmas la existo di la= verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB. Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas = =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB! 2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneve= s64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > La vorti= "atik-ismo" ed "atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko > *Atika, nece= sa i.a. por expresar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo > ", quan altre on apene povus > expresar komode. La v= orti "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima, same kam > "kanono" (ekleziala) e "ka= nono" (militala) i.a. Homonimi existas en omna > lingui. En Ido oli existas= minime, e le existanta apene povas produktar > konflikti, segun mea experi= enco. > > Existas plusa "latenta" radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trov= os la > vorto "venerala", definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-= sexua > intima=C2=BB, ma che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca pri= zento, segun > mea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko "= vener/", de qua > on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika", anke trovebla c= he Dyer. En la > verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro di Epikteto", tradukita da= C. S. Pearson e > L. Couturat (1909), me hodie / cadie / icadie / nunadie = trovis la vorto > "veneraji" (p. 16), glosizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2= =BB... > > Meaopinione, "metodisto" e "metodismo" esas prizentebla (o mem >= prizentinda) kom reguloza derivaji de "metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne > e= xpozis tala derivo, forsan pro manko di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo > = da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senecepte, la du koncepti esas expresata per >= du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro manko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas = > nula derivala difero inter la trio "turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio > "me= todo/metodisto/metodismo"... > > 2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe= Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > = >> >> >> Nu, me deskonkordas. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" = e >> "atik-isto" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne? >> >> E "metod-ismo" e "met= od-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka ne? >> >> GP >> >> 2017-01-14 6:00= GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] >> : >> >>> >>> >>> O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "mil= itar/" (e.a.) existas kom >>> "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pr= i *militar/ en SIL: >>> >>> **militar*/*a.* Militistala [A *military* | F *= militaire* | G *Milit=C3=A4r-*, >>> *milit=C3=A4risch* | H *militar* | I *m= ilitare* | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E *militista*]. >= >> **militarigar.* Organizar o preparar *militare (exemple, per sendar >>> = soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.c.): **milita= rigar >>> lando*, *regiono*. **militarismo* *1* Politikala sistemo en qua >= >> preponderas la *militara povo. *2* Tendenco a fortigar armeo e solvar >>= > konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. **militaristo.* Adepto di >= >> ta sistemo o tendenco. *Rem.* *militarism/* cesez existar kom aparta >>>= radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas *militaristo* e *militarigar* kom >>> deriva= ji de *militarismo*, quo supozigas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di *mil= itar/* >>> kom aparta radiko; Stuifbergen (*Progreso* 338, p. 10: ****milit= ara >>> zono*). >>> >>> >>> 2017-01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin= gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>= >> >>>> >>>> Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra tala vorti quala "militar-i= smo", >>>> "antimilitar-ismo", e.c. >>>> >>>> Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -= isto por simpligar la lektado. >>>> >>>> 2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >>>> [linguolisto] : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > > --f403045eadda9477bc05468fd21d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Progreso IV, 103:

Venerar, revera= r.
S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas adoptar la du verbi: ven= erar=C2=A0(profunda respekto kun afeciono) e reverar=C2=A0(profu= nda respekto kun nuanco di timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar venerdio=C2=A0a venusdio, e adoptar veneriar=C2=A0por l'ago sexu= ala (subst. venerio), de quo venus: veneriala=C2=A0plezuro, m= aladeso, e c. (N.B. veneracar, propozita III, 328, esis jus adoptata= : p. 69, decido 328).

To konfirmas la existo di la= verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB.
Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya si= gnifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB!

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-01-14 21:28 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= span style=3D"display:none">=C2=A0

La vorti "atik-ismo" ed &= quot;atik-isto" subkomprenigas la latenta radiko *Atika, necesa i.a. p= or expresar la koncepto "Atika Greka linguo", quan altre on apen= e povus expresar komode. La vorti "atiko" ed *Atika esas homonima= , same kam "kanono" (ekleziala) e "kanono" (militala) i= .a. Homonimi existas en omna lingui. En Ido oli existas minime, e le exista= nta apene povas produktar konflikti, segun mea experienco.

Existas plusa "latenta&qu= ot; radiki en Ido. Exemple, che Pesch tu trovos la vorto "venerala&quo= t;, definita kom =C2=ABQua koncernas la relati inter-sexua intima=C2=BB, ma= che Dyer tu trovos ol kom "vener-ala", ed olca prizento, segun m= ea interpreto, supozigas la existo di la "latenta" radiko "v= ener/", de qua on povas derivar "veneriko" e "venerika&= quot;, anke trovebla che Dyer. En la verko "Enkhiridion o manu-libro d= i Epikteto", tradukita da C. S. Pearson e L. Couturat (1909), me hodie= / cadie / icadie / nunadie trovis la vorto "veneraji" (p. 16), g= losizita kom =C2=ABamo sensuala=C2=BB...

= Meaopinione, "metodisto" e "metod= ismo" esas prizentebla (o mem prizentinda) kom reguloza derivaji de &q= uot;metodo". Tamen Dyer ulmotive ne expozis tala derivo, forsan pro ma= nko di kustumo, forsan pro forta influo da nia fonto-lingui (en qui, senece= pte, la du koncepti esas expresata per du aparta vorti), forsan mem pro man= ko di novigema kurajo. Me tamen vidas nula derivala difero inter la trio &q= uot;turo/turisto/turismo" e la trio "metodo/metodisto/metodismo&q= uot;...

2017-01-14 17:10 GMT+00= :00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
=C2=A0

Nu, me deskonkord= as. Segun ta ideo, Dyer ne skribabus "atik-ismo" e "atik-ist= o" nam "atiko" konfliktus, ka ne?

E "= ;metod-ismo" e "metod-ismo" ne esus en aparta paragrafo, ka = ne?

GP

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-01-14 6:00 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com = [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0 =

O forsan Dyer intencis montrar ke "militar/" (e.a.) existas= kom "latenta" aparta radiko... Yen lo skribita pri *militar/ en = SIL:

*militar/a. Militist= ala [A military | F= militaire | G Milit=C3=A4r-, milit=C3=A4risch | H militar | I militare | R =D0=B2=D0=BE=D0=B5=D0=BD=D0=BD=D1=8B=D0=B9 | E milit= ista]. *militarigar. Organizar o preparar *militare (exemple, pe= r sendar soldati, docar *militara aferi, augmentar la povo di armeo, e.c.):= *militarigar lando, regiono. *militarismo 1 Po= litikala sistemo en qua preponderas la *militara povo. 2 Tendenco a = fortigar armeo e solvar konflikti (precipue internaciona) per milito. *m= ilitaristo. Adepto di ta sistemo o tendenco. Rem. militarism/ cesez existar kom aparta radiko. Fonti: Dyer prizentas militaristo e = militarigar kom derivaji de militarismo, quo supoz= igas =E2=80=9Clatenta=E2=80=9D existo di militar/ kom aparta = radiko; Stuifbergen (Progreso 338, = p.=C2=A010: *militara zono).



2017-= 01-14 1:41 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0
=

Nu, to esas justa. Me trovis altra= tala vorti quala "militar-ismo", "antimilitar-ismo", e= .c.

Forsan Dyer skribis -ismo e -isto por simpligar= la lektado.

2017-01-11 12:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto= ] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:




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Sienkiewicz, publikigita en 1879 en la Polona (*Janko Muz= ykant*) ed en 1891 en Esperanto, en la sama volumeto kam *La nova jaro* (*N= owy rok*) da Boles=C5=82aw Prus, volumeto quan faksimile ripublikigis en 19= 71 mea regretata amiko Reinhard Haupenthal che Artur E. Iltis. Yen la konce= rnata frazo: *=C2=ABJanko retenis la spiron en la brusto, sed la dika vo= =C4=89o demandis la duan fojon.=C2=BB* (p. 18) Nu, fortunoze la originalo = esas lektebla en la reto, i.a. hike: http://wolnelektury.pl/katalog/lektur= a/janko-muzykant.html Yen la korespondanta citajo en la Polona: *=C2=AB**= Janek zatai=C5=82 dech w piersiach, ale gruby g=C5=82os spyta=C5=82 powt=C3= =B3rnie:=C2=BB* Nu, hike Grabowski tradukis vortope: *gruby* ya signifikas= =C2=ABdika=C2=BB e =C2=ABgrasa=C2=BB en la Polona. Tamen, se on lektas la = tota Grabowskiala tradukuro, on remarkas, nur kelka linei antee, yena frazo= : *=C2=AB**Ia basa dorma vo=C4=89o elvenanta el la angulo de l=E2=80=99 an= ta=C5=AD=C4=89ambro demandis kolere:=C2=BB* (p. 17) En la Polona originalo= on lektas: *=C2=AB**Gruby jaki=C5=9B, zaspany g=C5=82os, wychodz=C4=85cy = z k=C4=85ta kredensu spyta=C5=82 gniewliwie:=C2=BB* Nu, on remarkas ke Sie= nkiewicz uzis exakte la sama expresuro en amba frazi (*gruby g=C5=82os*), q= uankam en la unesma, inter l'adjektivo *gruby* e la substantivo *g=C5=82os*= (=C2=ABvoco=C2=BB) trovesas anke la determinanto *jaki=C5=9B* (=C2=ABula= =C2=BB) e l'adjektivo *zaspany* (=C2=ABsomnolanta=C2=BB). Tamen Grabowski t= radukis *gruby* per *basa* en la unesma frazo e per *dika* en la duesma. Pr= o quo? Forsan pro distrakteso o ne-atenco, forsan pro hastemeso, nulu savas= . Tamen ica nekonsequantajo esas tre stranja. Irge quale esas, la fakto ke = en 1891, kande la vortaro di Esperanto esis ankore extreme magra, Grabowski= tamen rekursis a *basa* por tradukar *gruby* montras ke ja lore la Esperan= tista tradukeri bone konciis ke la Espo-vorti esas ordinare min (mem multe = min) ampla kam la korespondanta vorti di lingui nacional. Cetere, la sama = rakonto *Janko Muzykant* itere trakukesis ad Esperanto plu recente, da Danu= ta Kowalska, pri elqua on povas lektar hike: http://malnova.esperanto.pl/p= age.php?tid=3D534&lng=3Deo Yen la du citita frazi segun la traduko da Danu= ta Kowalska: *=C2=ABJanko =C4=89esas spiri, sed la basa vo=C4=89o ripetas:= =C2=BB* *=C2=ABiu basa vo=C4=89o el la =C4=89ambra angulo demandas kolere:= =C2=BB* La tota tradukuro da Danuta Kowalska esas lektebla hike: http://m= alnova.esperanto.pl/page.php?tid=3D311130 Quale on povas facile konstatar,= el tradukis *gruby *per *basa* en la du frazi, do el tradukis korekte. Ce= tere, suficas konsultar omna Espo-dicionarii (Boirac, 1909; Kabe, 1910; *Pl= ena Vortaro* 1934; Azorin 1955; PIV, 1973; NPIV 2002) por konstatar ke nula= donas a *dika* irga senco aplikebla a voco.... Pri *Donald Broadribb*, qu= on me povas dicar? Il esis mea korespondanto. Tempope me questionis lu pri = bibliala temi, pri la Greka e, precipue, pri la Hebrea linguo. Il sempre re= spondis tre detaloze e kontentigive. Il ya esis tre kompetenta en sua faki,= ed anke tre helpema ed afabla. Cetere, dum kurta periodo en sua interlingu= istikala periodo, longe ante ke il divenis mea korespondanto, il okupesis a= nke pri Ido e mem skribis tre interesiva e bel-stila artikli en nia linguo,= qui publikigesis en *Progreso* (anke Cherpillod agis lo preske en la sama = periodo, e mem plu ofte). Nu, lua tradukuri esas pasable bona, sendubite, m= a ne ecelanta. Il ne esis eminenta tradukero quala Fernando de Diego, Haupe= nthal ed altri. Ne mankas en lua tradukuri peci pluboniginda o mem eroroza.= Yen tri exempli ek lua tradukuro de Orwell: *a dreary, whining sort of v= oice* *teda, plenda=C4=89a-speca vo=C4=89o* *Always the eyes watching you= and the voice enveloping you.* *=C4=88iam la okuloj rigardis onin kaj la = vo=C4=89o enfaldis onin.* *a pair of sweaty shorts turned inside out* *=C5= =9Dvitoplena kuloto inversita* En la triesma citajo, la dik-litera vorto e= sas duople eroroza: la radiko esas misselektita (devus esar *revers/* vice = *invers/*) e la misselektita radiko esas misuzita (*inversita* vice *invers= igita*). Lua expresuro *maldika vo=C4=89o* (sustenata da nula Espo-lexikog= rafo) certe trovesas inter tala serio de pluboniginda peci... La granda pr= oblemo pri tradukar vortope tala expresuri nacional esas ke expresuri quala= =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB povas havar diferanta signifiki en diversa lingui (= =C2=ABbasa=C2=BB, =C2=ABsonora=C2=BB, =C2=ABviratra=C2=BB, =C2=ABrauka=C2= =BB, edc), do esas preferinda =E2=80=93 mem tre preferinda =E2=80=93 uzar v= orto plu specigiva, por evitar misinterpreti e miskompreni. *fine* e *tand= em* ne esas sinonimi. Ordinare on dicas *finfine* en nuna Espo por expresar= la koncepto korespondanta a *tandem*. Tamen ta vorto ( *finfine*) segun se= mblo ne existis en la 30esma yari dil antea yarcento. Exemple, *Plena Vorta= ro* (1934) ne mencionas ol. Tamen ta dicionario klare indikas la du senci d= i *fine*: *=C2=AB1. =C4=88e la fino (tempe a=C5=AD loke). 2. Post longa ate= ndado.=C2=BB* Por la duesma senco on nun ofte dicas *finfine* vice nur *fin= e* en Espo, por evitar miskompreni, ed on dicas *tandem* en Ido. Lingui esa= s tala: li evolucionas e pokope pluricheskas segun sua propra ritmo e bezon= i. Me vidas nula problemo en to. *tandem* esas vorto uzata en Ido ja de 196= 7! 2017-01-18 15:22 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [= linguolisto] : > > Certe, segun TLFi, =C2=ABt= enua=C2=BB esas antonimo di =C2=ABdensa=C2=BB e =C2=ABgrosa=C2=BB: > http:/= /www.cnrtl.fr/antonymie/t%C3%A9nu > > Segun TLFi, esas difero inter =C2=ABg= rosse voix=C2=BB (grosa voco) e =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB. > =C2=ABgros= se voix=C2=BB esas voco grosa, forta, dum ke =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB = esas voco rauka > pro salivo densa. > > La Angla facas la sama distingo: ht= tps://en.oxforddictionaries.com/ > definition/thick > > Tua exemplo, =C2=AB= intestino tenua=C2=BB, remarkigis da me ke anke la Franca =C2=ABvoix > gr= =C3=AAle=C2=BB tradukesas a Ido per =C2=ABvoco tenua=C2=BB... > > http://ww= w.cnrtl.fr/definition/gr%C3%AAle > > Donald Broadribb, eminenta membro di A= dE, anke uzis =C2=ABmaldika=C2=BB (tenua, anke > por la intestino) por desk= riptar voco en sua tradukuro *Mil Na=C5=ADcent Okdek > Kvar* (p. 164): > ht= tp://i-espero.info/files/elibroj/eo%20-%20orwell,% > 20george%20-%201984.pd= f > > Pluse: =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB en la libro *Du Rakontoj en la ling= uo internacia > esperanto: la nova Jaro*, Antoni Grabowski, 1891, p. 18: > = https://books.google.ca/books?id=3Dlte6q3vgFjUC&printsec=3Dfrontcover > > N= u, la eminenta Antoni Grabowski tradukis =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB de... l= a Polona! To > demonstras ke =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB e =C2=ABtenua voco=C2= =BB ya esas exter DEFIRS. > > (Aparte, forsan tu havus la litero =C2=ABG=C2= =BB en PIV vice =C2=ABGN=C2=BB se Antoni > Grabowski ne esabus Esperantisto= ...) > > Nu, se tala Esperantisti uzis =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB en la praktikale m= axim neutra > konstruktita linguo en la mondo, forsan to ne esas grava. For= san to *tre* > neimportas! > > Tala kompari kun DEFIRS, e mem Esperanto, po= vus esar senfina! > > =C2=ABGilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmet= aforala uzi tro "nacionala", > sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis p= artikulare la vorto "tenua" o la > Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis generala= e koncernis irga vorto ed irga > linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro.=C2=BB = > > Nu, Ido ed Esperanto havas =C2=ABfine!=C2=BB (D. endlich! E. at last! F= . enfin! I. > finalmente! S. =C2=A1por fin!), =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB (D. Erdap= fel, F. pomme de terre) e > =C2=ABridetar=C2=BB (L. subridere, F. sourire, = I. sorridere, S. sonre=C3=ADr), qui > sustenesas ne da logiko ma da DEFIRS.= Same pri =C2=ABmarhundo=C2=BB en Ido (D. > Seehund, E. sea dog), =C2=ABber= naklo-muslo=C2=BB (E. F. barnacle)... > > Se on bezonus plu kam nur DEFIRS,= nu, ni quik reformez nia linguo... tre > severe. Semblas ke on ja komencis= la laboro per =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB e =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB... Nun > ni quik tro= vez nova vorti por la altri! > > En mea opiniono, me judikas plu grava la v= orti quin, en Ido, on uzas kande > lia senco *ja restriktesis*. Exemple, me= ja vidis certena Franculo uzar > =C2=ABsuperba=C2=BB omnube lu volis tradu= kar la Franca =C2=ABsuperbe=C2=BB (belega). Nu! To > esas eroro, nam la sen= ci definita interdiktas tala uzo. Me ja vidis, tre > ofte, (e certe me ipsa= inkluzite) uli uzar =C2=ABaktiva=C2=BB vice =C2=ABagiva=C2=BB: =C2=ABaktiv= a > Idisto, aktiva volkano=C2=BB. Nu! To anke esas eroro, nam la senci defi= nita > interdiktas tala uzo. O me ja vidis =C2=ABspecifika=C2=BB (teknikala= vorto!) vice > =C2=ABspecigiva=C2=BB. E.c., e.c., e.c.. > > 2017-01-18 6:3= 1 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> Gilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=AB= metaforala uzi tro "nacionala", >> sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne viz= is partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la >> Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis gen= erala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga >> linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro. = Anke en la Portugalana on uzas la vorto >> "t=C3=A9nue" ("t=C3=AAnue" en Br= azilia) kun multa senci (i.a. anke pri voco e >> vaporo!), do expresuri qua= la "tenua vaporo" o "tenua voco" tote ne shokas >> mea linguo-sento. Tamen = Ido havas altra principi e kustumi kam nia lingui >> nacional. Exemple, en = omna AFGHIR-lingui (ed en preske omna lingui en la >> mondo!) la vorto kore= spondanta a "kirko" signifikas anke "eklezio", ma Ido >> (same kam Esperant= o) vortarale distingas la du koncepti. Do la temo esas >> plu amplexa e kom= plikita kam on povus supozar unesma-regarde. >> >> La fakto ke, en la Franc= a-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat, on lektas =C2=AB*t=C3=A9nue >> :* tenua= =C2=BB (p. 536), sen plusa konsideri, sen subsenci, sen exempli, ne >> nece= se implikas ke omna senci e subsenci di "t=C3=A9nue" automatale tradukesas = >> per "tenua"! Se on komparas, exemple, en la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri= >> "t=C3=A9nu" (maxim magra!) ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (p. 277), on shok= esas dal >> difero ed on darfas questionar su pro quo existas tala difero. = Se on >> konsultas l'artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trovas multa senci = e subsenci, >> multa uzi figurala, ed anke multa exempli: >> >> http://atil= f.atilf.fr/ >> >> Evidente Beaufront e Couturat ne konsultis TLFi (qua lore= ne existis), ma >> li certe konsultis ula Franca-lingua dicionario (o mem = pluri) por kompozar >> sua lexiko. Quan (o quin) li konsultis? Nulu savas. = Tamen, kande me apertas >> mea exemplero di ilustrita Larousse (1983) e me = lektas lua artiklo pri >> "t=C3=A9nu", me trovas nur yena defino, sen subse= nci, sen exempli: =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, >> tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB. Kande me k= onsultas l'artiklo pri "gros, grosse" en la sama >> verko, me trovas sat de= taloza artiklo, kontenanta multa subsenci ed >> exempli. Pluse, kelka exemp= li esas egala ad olti prizentita en l'artiklo >> "gros, grosse" en la lexik= o da Beaufront/Couturat. Yen la komparo inter >> Larousse (L) e Beaufront/C= outurat (B/C): >> >> un gros arbe (L) >> >> grosse somme (L) >> grosse fi= =C3=A8vre (L) >> gros drap (L, B/C) >> de gros souliers (L) >> du gros roug= e (L) >> gros commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gociant (B/C), marchand de g= ros (B/C) >> grosse mer (L, B/C) >> grosse voix (L) >> grosse viande (B/C) = >> gros temps (B/C) >> gros mots (B/C) >> gros joueur (B/C) >> gros de six = mois (B/C) >> en gros (L, B/C), tout en gros (B/C) >> un gros (B/C) >> le g= ros de (B/C) >> acheter en gros (L) >> avoir le c=C5=93ur gros (L, B/C) >> = >> avoir les yeux gros de larmes (L) >> faire les gros yeux (L) >> >> gagne= r gros (L) >> >> =C3=A9crire gros (L, B/C) >> >> en avoir gros sur le c=C5= =93ur (B/C) >> >> commerce en gros (B/C) >> >> rapporter gros (B/C) >> >> i= l ya gros =C3=A0 parier que (B/C) >> fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C) >> >> On p= ovas konstatar ke, en ica artiklo, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat >> konte= nas plu multa exempli kam Larousse (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke >> lia = lexiko esas tre kompetente kompozita, quankam li certe ne disponis tam >> m= ulta moyeni kam la profesionala esquado qua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, >>= se li skribis tante magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga= >> nesorgemeso o manko di lexikografiala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to >>= konsequas nur de ke anke la Franca-lingua dicionarii quin li konsultis >> = prizentis (same kam Larousse) tre magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze,= la >> unesma senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi (=C2=ABQui est tr=C3=A8s mince, = tr=C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) esas >> preske egala al unika senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en = la mencionita edituro di Larousse (=C2=ABTr=C3=A8s >> fin, tr=C3=A8s mince= =C2=BB). Measupoze, ica esas la bazala senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la >> Franca= , l'unika quan Beaufront e Couturat trovis en la konsultita >> dicionarii e= l'unika quan li fakte tradukis. Pluse, quale on povas >> konstatar sub "fi= n" (p. 248) li atribuis a "tenua" anke un del senci di >> "fin" en la Franc= a, nome, olta di "konsistanta ek mikra partikuli" (A: >> *fine*, F: *fin*, = G: *fein*; H: *fino*; I: *minuto*,* fine*; R: =D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=BA=D0= =B8=D0=B9), >> aplikebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, faruno edc. Tamen= Dyer e >> Pesch tradukas tala senco per "subtila", quo semblas a me plu lo= gikoza e >> preferinda: la partikuli ya esas tenua, ma la substanco konsist= anta ek tala >> partikuli esas subtila, ne tenua. >> >> Pluse, kande on kon= sultas l'artiklo "=C3=A9pais" en la lexiko da >> Beaufront/Couturat on trov= as (p. 218): >> >> *=C3=A9pais* [...] (*dense: fluide, brouillard*) densa. = >> >> Or, se nebulo "=C3=A9pais" esas "densa" segun Beaufront/Couturat, on = expektas >> ke nebulo "t=C3=A9nu" esos "desdensa" o "nedensa", e ne "tenua"= . >> >> Kande on konsultas l'artiklo "faible" en la sama lexiko, on lektas = i.a. >> >> *faible* (*adj.*) [...] (*voix*) ne-sonora. >> >> Lektinte lo,= on expektas ke "grosse voix" (regretinde mankanta en la >> exempli che Cou= turat/Beaufront) esos "sonora voco" (ne "grosa voco") e ke >> lua kontreajo= esos "ne-sonora voco" (ne "tenua voco"). >> >> Cetere, en la Angla-Ido-lex= iko da Dyer on trovas (p. 343): >> >> *thin :* [...] (*in space*) des-densa= (air, etc.) >> >> Anke la Germana-Ido-lexiko da Feder (1920) donas "des-de= nsa" kom un del >> tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn" (p. 177). Cetere, ica artiklo p= ri "d=C3=BCnn" (same kam la >> tota lexiko!) esas certe studiinda, nam ol p= rizentas interesiva solvi ed >> exempli: dina; tenua (=C2=ABtenua-gamba=C2= =BB, =C2=ABtenua intestino=C2=BB); gracila; magra; >> skarsa (=C2=ABskarsa-= barba=C2=BB); fluida; aquatra; dilutita; ne-densa (=C2=ABne-densa >> biro= =C2=BB); plata (=C2=ABplata ventro=C2=BB). >> >> Pri "galerio" me konkordas= . >> >> Nu, me skribis tro multe... >> >> GN >> >> >> >> 2017-01-17 22:47 G= MT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> "tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu e= sas anke Angla. >>> tenua =3D tenuous =3D 2. Rare; subtile; not dense; -- s= aid of fluids. >>> http://www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous >>> >>> Me ank= e trovis libri en Google qui uzas "tenuous voice", ex. *Guest of >>> a Sinn= er* da James Wilcox (p. 40): >>> *"They've been phoning me," Una Merton wen= t on in a tenuous voice, >>> almost a whisper.* >>> >>> Me ne bone komprena= s la Hispana, ma semblas, segun Google, ke "voz >>> tenue" ya uzesas... Ka = to vere esas nacionala expresuro??? >>> *"Con voz tenue y ojos entornados, = Hajji relata su historia."* >>> http://www.unfpa.org/es/node/5897 >>> >>> "= Por komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, la >>>= Angla od irg altra linguo..." >>> Me deskonkordas, nam per sat bona dicion= ario kun defini en Ido, ni povus >>> uzar ta figurala senci en Ido e per Id= o, sen bezonar DEFIRS. >>> >>> La problemo, kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uz= is la lexiko Franca-Ido. Se >>> tu uzus la lexiko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quan= te vasta la defini esas... >>> ultempe mem sen ula precizigo di la senco. D= o "tenua" signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e)", *en >>> omna senci.* >>> >>> En la sam= a maniero, me konkluzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke >>> lu signif= ikas en la Franca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la >>> senco = teatrala, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco: >>> http= s://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/galerio >>> >>> Fine, la exempli da de Beaufront= esas forsan eroroza, me konkordas. >>> Danko pro savigar la existo di "end= etala" e "engrosa" da me! >>> >>> >> > > --f403045f8b38da784705469164b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, la exemplo dika= vo=C4=89o da Grabowski aparas en la rakonto Janko-Muzikanto, da H. Sienkiewicz,= publikigita en 1879 en la Polona (Janko Muzykant) ed en 1891 en Esp= eranto, en la sama volumeto kam La = nova jaro (Nowy rok) da Boles=C5=82aw Prus, volumeto quan= faksimile ripublikigis en 1971 mea regretata amiko Reinhard Haupenthal che= Artur E. Iltis. Yen la koncernata frazo:

=C2=ABJanko retenis la spiro= n en la brusto, sed la dika vo=C4=89o demandis la duan fojon.=C2=BB<= /span> (p. 18)

Nu, fortunoze la originalo esa= s lektebla en la reto, i.a. hike:

http://wolnelektury.pl/katalog/lektura/j= anko-muzykant.html

Yen la korespondanta citajjo en la Polona:

=C2=ABJanek zatai=C5=82 dech w piersiac= h, ale gruby g=C5=82os spyta=C5=82 powt=C3=B3rnie:=C2=BB<= br>
= Nu, hike = Grabowski tradukis vortope: gruby ya signifikas =C2=ABdika=C2=BB e = =C2=ABgrasa=C2=BB en la Polona. Tamen, se on lektas la tota Grabowskiala tr= adukuro, on remarkas, nur kelka linei antee, yena frazo:

=C2=ABIa basa do= rma vo=C4=89o elvenanta el la angulo de l=E2=80=99 anta=C5=AD=C4=89a= mbro demandis kolere:=C2=BB (p. 17)

=
En= la Polona originalo on lektas:

=C2=ABGruby jaki=C5=9B, zaspany g=C5=82os, wych= odz=C4=85cy z k=C4=85ta kredensu spyta=C5=82 gniewliwie:=C2=BB

<= /span>
Nu, on remarkas ke Sienkiewicz uzis exakte la sama= expresuro en amba frazi (gruby g=C5=82os), = quankam en la unesma, inter l'adjektivo gruby e la substantivo <= /span>g=C5=82os (=C2= =ABvoco=C2=BB) trovesas anke la determinanto jaki=C5=9B (=C2=ABula=C2=BB) e l'adjektivo zaspany (=C2=ABsomnolanta=C2=BB). Tamen Grabowski tradukis gruby per basa en la unesma frazo e per = dika en la duesma. Pro q= uo? Forsan pro distrakteso o ne-atenco, forsan pro hastemeso, nulu savas. T= amen ica nekonsequantajo esas tre stranja. Irge quale esas, la fakto ke en = 1891, kande la vortaro di Esperanto esis ankore extreme magra, Grabowski ta= men rekursis a basa por = tradukar gruby mon= tras ke ja lore la Esperantista tradukeri bone konciis ke la Espo-vorti esa= s ordinare min (mem multe min) ampla kam la korespondanta vorti di lingui n= acional.

Cetere, la sama rakonto Janko Muzykant itere trakukesis ad= Esperanto plu recente, da Danuta Kowalska, pri elqua on povas lektar hike:=

http://malnova.esperanto.pl/page.php?tid=3D534&lng=3Deo
<= br>Yen la du citita frazi segun la traduko da Danuta Kowalska:

=C2=ABJanko =C4=89esas spiri, sed la = basa vo=C4=89o ripetas:=C2=BB

=C2=ABiu basa vo=C4=89o el la =C4=89ambra angulo de= mandas kolere:=C2=BB

La tota tradukuro da Danuta Kowalska esas lektebla = hike:

http://malnova.esperanto.pl/page.php= ?tid=3D311130

Quale on povas faci= le konstatar, el tradukis gruby per basa en la du frazi, do el tradukis korekte.

Cetere, suf= icas konsultar omna Espo-dicionarii (Boirac, 1909; Kabe, 1910; Plena Vor= taro 1934; Azorin 1955; PIV, 1973; NPIV 2002) por konstatar ke nula don= as a dika irga senco apl= ikebla a voco....

Pri Donald Broadribb, quon me povas dicar? Il esis mea kore= spondanto. Tempope me questionis lu pri bibliala temi, pri la Greka e, prec= ipue, pri la Hebrea linguo. Il sempre respondis tre detaloze e kontentigive= . Il ya esis tre kompetenta en sua faki, ed anke tre helpema ed afabla. Cet= ere, dum kurta periodo en sua interlinguistikala periodo, longe ante ke il = divenis mea korespondanto, il okupesis anke pri Ido e mem skribis tre inter= esiva e bel-stila artikli en nia linguo, qui publikigesis en Progreso (anke Cherpillod agis lo preske en la sama periodo, e mem plu ofte). Nu, = lua tradukuri esas pasable bona, sendubite, ma ne ecelanta. Il ne esis emin= enta tradukero quala Fernando de Diego, Haupenthal ed altri. Ne mankas en l= ua tradukuri peci pluboniginda o mem eroroza. Yen tri exempli ek lua traduk= uro de Orwell:

a dreary, <= b>whining sort of voice
teda, plenda=C4=89a-speca vo=C4=89o
<= /font>

Always the eye= s watching you and the voice enveloping you.
=C4=88iam la okuloj rigardis onin kaj la vo=C4=89= o enfaldis onin.

<= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">a pair of sweaty shorts turned inside out
=C5=9Dvitoplena kuloto inversita

En la triesma citajo, la dik-litera vorto esas duople eroroza: la radiko e= sas misselektita (devus esar revers= / vice invers/) e la misselektita radiko esas misuzita (inversita vice = inversigita).

Lua expresuro maldika vo=C4=89o (s= ustenata da nula Espo-lexikografo) certe trovesas inter tala serio de plubo= niginda peci...

La granda problemo pri tradukar vortope tala expresuri nacional esas= ke expresuri quala =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB povas havar diferanta signifiki = en diversa lingui (=C2=ABbasa=C2=BB, =C2=ABsonora=C2=BB, =C2=ABviratra=C2= =BB, =C2=ABrauka=C2=BB, edc), do esas preferinda =E2=80=93 mem tre preferinda <= /span>=E2=80=93 uzar vorto plu specigiva, por evitar misinterpreti e miskompreni.
<= br>
fine e= tandem ne esas sinonimi. Ordinare on dicas finfine en nuna Espo por expresar la koncepto ko= respondanta a tandem. Tamen ta vorto (finfine) segun semblo ne existis en la 30esma yari dil= antea yarcento. Exemple, Plena Vortaro (1934) ne mencionas ol. Tame= n ta dicionario klare indikas la du senci di fine: =C2=AB1. =C4=88e la fino (tempe a=C5=AD loke). 2. Post longa atendado= .=C2=BB Por la duesma senco on nun ofte dicas finfine vice nur fine en Espo, por evitar miskompreni, ed on dicas= tandem en Ido. Lingui esas tala: li evolucionas e pokope plurichesk= as segun sua propra ritmo e bezoni. Me vidas nula problemo en to. tandem= esas vorto uzata en Ido ja de 1967!

=C2=A0

=
2017-01-18 15:22 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin= gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto]= <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
Certe, segun TLFi, =C2= =ABtenua=C2=BB esas antonimo di =C2=ABdensa=C2=BB e =C2=ABgrosa=C2=BB:

<= div>Segun TLFi, esas difero inter =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB (grosa voco) e = =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB. =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB esas voco grosa, for= ta, dum ke =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB esas voco rauka pro salivo densa.<= /div>

La Angla facas la sama distingo:=C2=A0https:= //en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/thick

Tua exemplo, =C2=ABintestino tenua=C2=BB, remarkigis da me ke anke= la Franca =C2=ABvoix gr=C3=AAle=C2=BB tradukesas a Ido per =C2=ABvoco tenu= a=C2=BB...


Donald Broadribb, eminenta memb= ro di AdE, anke uzis =C2=ABmaldika=C2=BB (tenua, anke por la intestino) por= deskriptar voco en sua tradukuro Mil Na=C5=ADcent Okdek Kvar (p. 16= 4):
<= br>
Pluse: =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB en la libro=C2=A0Du Rako= ntoj en la linguo internacia esperanto: la nova Jaro, Antoni Grabowski,= 1891, p. 18:
=

Nu, la eminenta Antoni Grabowski tradukis =C2=ABdika vo= =C4=89o=C2=BB de... la Polona! To demonstras ke =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB e = =C2=ABtenua voco=C2=BB ya esas exter DEFIRS.

(Apar= te, forsan tu havus la litero =C2=ABG=C2=BB en PIV vice =C2=ABGN=C2=BB se A= ntoni Grabowski ne esabus Esperantisto...)

Nu, se = tala Esperantisti uzis =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB en la praktikale maxim neutra kons= truktita linguo en la mondo, forsan to ne esas grava. Forsan to tre = neimportas!

Tala kompari kun DEFIRS, e mem Esperan= to, povus esar senfina!

=C2=ABGilles-Philippe, kan= de me avertis pri =C2=ABmetaforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen inter= naciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare la vorto "tenua" o = la Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga = linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro.=C2=BB

Nu, Ido ed Esp= eranto havas =C2=ABfine!=C2=BB (D. endlich!=C2=A0E. at last! F. enfin! I. f= inalmente! S. =C2=A1por fin!), =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB (D. Erdapfel, F. pomme d= e terre) e =C2=ABridetar=C2=BB (L. subridere, F. sourire, I. sorridere, S. = sonre=C3=ADr), qui sustenesas ne da logiko ma da DEFIRS. Same pri =C2=ABmar= hundo=C2=BB en Ido (D. Seehund, E. sea dog), =C2=ABbernaklo-muslo=C2=BB (E.= F. barnacle)...

Se on bezonus plu kam nur DEFIRS, nu, n= i quik reformez nia linguo... tre severe. Semblas ke on ja komencis la labo= ro per =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB e =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB... Nun ni quik trovez nova v= orti por la altri!

En mea opiniono, me judikas plu= grava la vorti quin, en Ido, on uzas kande lia senco ja restriktesis. Exemple, me ja vidis certena Franculo uzar =C2=ABsuperba=C2=BB omnube lu= volis tradukar la Franca =C2=ABsuperbe=C2=BB (belega). Nu! To esas eroro, = nam la senci definita interdiktas tala uzo. Me ja vidis, tre ofte, (e certe= me ipsa inkluzite) uli uzar =C2=ABaktiva=C2=BB vice =C2=ABagiva=C2=BB: =C2= =ABaktiva Idisto, aktiva volkano=C2=BB. Nu! To anke esas eroro, nam la senc= i definita interdiktas tala uzo. O me ja vidis =C2=ABspecifika=C2=BB (tekni= kala vorto!) vice =C2=ABspecigiva=C2=BB. E.c., e.c., e.c..
=

2017-01-18 6:31 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0 <= div id=3D"gmail-m_-5174379091178364893m_-7282737281292303514ygrp-mlmsg"> =
=
=
Gilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmetaforala uzi = tro "nacionala", sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis parti= kulare la vorto "tenua" o la Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis gene= rala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro. Anke= en la Portugalana on uzas la vorto "t=C3=A9nue" ("t=C3=AAnu= e" en Brazilia) kun multa senci (i.a. anke pri voco e vaporo!), do exp= resuri quala "tenua vaporo" o "tenua voco" tote ne shok= as mea linguo-sento. Tamen Ido havas altra principi e kustumi kam nia lingu= i nacional. Exemple, en omna AFGHIR-lingui (ed en preske omna lingui en la = mondo!) la vorto korespondanta a "kirko" signifikas anke "ek= lezio", ma Ido (same kam Esperanto) vortarale distingas la du koncepti= . Do la temo esas plu amplexa e komplikita kam on povus supozar unesma-rega= rde.

La fakto ke, en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat, on= lektas =C2=ABt=C3=A9nue : tenua=C2=BB (p. 536), sen plusa konsideri= , sen subsenci, sen exempli, ne necese implikas ke omna senci e subsenci di= "t=C3=A9nue" automatale tradukesas per "tenua"! Se on = komparas, exemple, en la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu"= (maxim magra!) ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (p. 277), on shokesas = dal difero ed on darfas questionar su pro quo existas tala difero. Se on ko= nsultas l'artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trovas multa sen= ci e subsenci, multa uzi figurala, ed anke multa exempli:=C2=A0

http://atilf.atilf.fr/

Evidente Beaufront e Couturat ne = konsultis TLFi (qua lore ne existis), ma li certe konsultis ula Franca-ling= ua dicionario (o mem pluri) por kompozar sua lexiko. Quan (o quin) li konsu= ltis? Nulu savas. Tamen, kande me apertas mea exemplero di ilustrita Larous= se (1983) e me lektas lua artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", me trovas nur = yena defino, sen subsenci, sen exempli: =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr=C3=A8s minc= e=C2=BB. Kande me konsultas l'artiklo pri "gros, grosse" en l= a sama verko, me trovas sat detaloza artiklo, kontenanta multa subsenci ed = exempli. Pluse, kelka exempli esas egala ad olti prizentita en l'artikl= o "gros, grosse" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat. Yen la kompa= ro inter Larousse (L) e Beaufront/Couturat (B/C):

un gros arbe (L)

grosse somme (L)
grosse fi= =C3=A8vre (L)
gros drap (L, B/C)
de gros souliers (L)
du gros r= ouge (L)
gros commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gociant (B/C), marchand = de gros (B/C)
grosse mer (L, B/C)
grosse voix (L)
grosse viande= (B/C)
gros temps (B/C)
gros mots (B/C)
gros joueur (B/C)
g= ros de six mois (B/C)
en gros (L, B/C), tout en gros (B/C)
un gros = (B/C)
le gros de (B/C)
acheter en gros (L)
avoir le c=C5=93ur g= ros (L, B/C)

avoir les yeux gros de larmes (L)
faire l= es gros yeux=C2=A0(L)

gagner gros (L)

=

=C3= =A9crire gros (L, B/C)

en avoir gros sur le c=C5=93ur (B/C= )

commerce en gros (B/C)

rapporter gros (= B/C)

il ya gros =C3=A0 parier que (B/C) fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C)

On povas konstatar ke, en ica artik= lo, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat kontenas plu multa exempli kam Larousse= (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke lia lexiko esas tre kompetente kompozita,= quankam li certe ne disponis tam multa moyeni kam la profesionala esquado = qua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, se li skribis tante magra artiklo pri &quo= t;t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga nesorgemeso o manko di lexikogra= fiala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to konsequas nur de ke anke la Franca-lin= gua dicionarii quin li konsultis prizentis (same kam Larousse) tre magra ar= tiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la unesma senco di "t=C3= =A9nu" en TLFi (=C2=AB= <= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Qui est tr=C3=A8s mince, tr=C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) esas preske egala al unika senco di &quo= t;t=C3=A9nu" en la mencionita edituro di Larousse (= <= span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">(A: fine, F: fin, G: fein; H= : fino; I: minuto, fine; R: =D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BB=D0=BA= =D0=B8=D0=B9), aplikebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, faruno edc.= =C2=A0 Tamen Dyer e Pesch tradukas tala = senco per "subtila", quo semblas a me plu logikoza e preferinda: = la partikuli ya esas tenua, ma la substanco konsistanta ek tala partikuli e= sas subtila, ne tenua.

Pluse, kande = on konsultas l'artiklo "=C3=A9pais" en la lexiko da Beaufront= /Couturat on trovas (p. 218):

= =C3=A9pais [...] (dense: fluide, brouillard) densa.

= Or, se nebulo "=C3=A9pais" esas "= densa" segun Beaufront/Couturat, on expektas ke nebulo "t=C3=A9nu= " esos "desdensa" o "nedensa", e ne "tenua&qu= ot;.

Kande on konsultas l'artikl= o "faible" en la sama lexiko, on lektas i.a.

= faible=C2=A0 (adj.)=C2=A0 [...] (voix) ne-sonora.

Lektinte lo, on ex= pektas ke "grosse voix" (regretinde mankanta en la exempli che Co= uturat/Beaufront) esos "sonora voco" (ne "grosa voco") = e ke lua kontreajo esos "ne-sonora voco" (ne "tenua voco&quo= t;).

Cetere, en la Angla-Ido-lexiko = da Dyer on trovas (p. 343):

= thin = : [...] (in space) des-densa (air, etc.)

Anke la Germana-Ido-lexiko da Feder (1920) donas "des-= densa" kom un del tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn" (p. 177). Cetere,= ica artiklo pri "d=C3=BCnn" (same kam la tota lexiko!) esas cert= e studiinda, nam ol prizentas interesiva solvi ed exempli: dina; tenua (=C2= =ABtenua-gamba=C2=BB, =C2=ABtenua intestino=C2=BB); gracila; magra; skarsa = (=C2=ABskarsa-barba=C2=BB); fluida; aquatra; dilutita; ne-densa (=C2=ABne-d= ensa biro=C2=BB); plata (=C2=ABplata ventro=C2=BB).

Pri "galerio" me konkordas.

=
<= font size=3D"4">Nu, me skribis tro multe...

<= /span>
GN



2017-01-17 22:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-P= hilippe Morin gphmo= rin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >:
=C2=A0
=
"tenua vaporo" ne esas naci= onala nam lu esas anke Angla.
tenua =3D tenuous =3D=C2=A02. Rare; subti= le; not dense; -- said of fluids.=C2=A0http://www.websters1913.com/words/= Tenuous

Me anke trovis libri en Google qui uza= s "tenuous voice", ex. Guest of a Sinner=C2=A0da James Wil= cox (p. 40):
"They've been phoning me," Una Mert= on went on in a tenuous voice, almost a whisper.

<= /div>
Me ne bone komprenas la Hispana, ma semblas, segun Google, ke &qu= ot;voz tenue" ya uzesas... Ka to vere esas nacionala expresuro???
"Con voz tenue y ojos entornados, Hajji relata su historia.&q= uot;

=
"Por komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germ= ana, la Angla od irg altra linguo..."
Me deskonkordas, n= am per sat bona dicionario kun defini en Ido, ni povus uzar ta figurala sen= ci en Ido e per Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS.

La proble= mo, kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca-Ido. Se tu uzus la l= exiko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quante vasta la defini esas... ultempe mem sen u= la precizigo di la senco. Do "tenua" signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e= )", en omna senci.

En la sama m= aniero, me konkluzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke lu sig= nifikas en la Franca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas = la senco teatrala, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco:= =C2=A0= https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/galerio

Fi= ne, la exempli da de Beaufront esas forsan eroroza, me konkordas. Danko pro= savigar la existo di "endetala" e "engrosa" da me!


=


--f403045f8b38da784705469164b7-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4894 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22234 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 02:54:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 02:54:20 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 23282 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 02:54:20 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 02:54:20 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: faP_m54WLDvGIkO29C7RLi0kH55S5800gFTjkFAxvZPkO_sp W3lgT8PfU8HXjq_mx266n2oIiRUtNElZ8cNxf05bLTOv27riiqxy_wkFcOKm dZ93RzohyKNPtxYTuHy5o.hewa7frhIbbPly1byPG331.vbGeRHYcwzdFtpg SNZBp8QeHXXliyESFQMMVf1Rr0qhrAvGRLENYpy1kyDuqmqUWzOFKbrlpIMC YVwex26wk6kvTVc8QBUhuOVB4oRcgxZosV0BjCLNz5HZLWVz5hES9fKWFtMB ryt0t.o3D47S8Eo0BRguZlAwu5GshhnOZZ5POHiUmAEV3A0zDW9xwNTKIDqj t4ehK1OqDUFiXtsvEjhJPsG043X2JBtCrK8fV3IDF.X1dhwwrWjh_dklzKZb mlze_V6PmglIanx9YxDw.Lyq9Z9LC5BOP_OcXwMxEVNGIhl43.6s25Dq7BPZ Ugh0f9SI5UZf6htgqmVOYzvr.bU1VjDycusrqCEwKxAhLDDKeoqBkKPsdlcG 0eqspiL0m8ljiIR1wpAgeQ8bRskP0pZysnz9etxpmokLT2szcB1qgFPuLEKq WxSi_Un0haa20aD_IxEDbH6G4Ag6BzYcBWd_f.bbo5J50Xa_VHyPr7yRDAUQ Njz21ssFKa_YfvI4YUXg0WV10yF.ZdEub_miazuDhd6rG320eNTgmNeU5xFI uSO2b092rbsQW3PEjIp8b4kY1caoRDQGZxOe5wHjTGPbkg6FMX7Ttg8jsWV0 rX35qHFvz5H02aITpuvKeRh0FTTwm_K83cpkLZPzl3Ts.aKihbtaRVN9NYvD KB5pvrr_4OTaDjWb9wTdWtcdQ5VasyfsD.G8Sm0lsyZapI9InKTzxNZLfHHE lJZmZ5qq8nl2cD64ROUpl1uwz_tz5CjsP1TieJSQeEgjtphgb0NOSoSELyCO J4V6z8trq5z2aOefmrW5244fRu2OTKv.Gj.WtVavTrp0Xfs.9PWFeEJLKsME 9RjEP9j_TxV8AHTNwcly9SoKRgjHta9BjAHjLwaj_Yz63ku6UNhRoLOz_Txl 1MtaMFaWZvwa_TTjTMFeav7lUevhVVS7Bwr7ZArU_ORZL6T_tP50wMOsyPdu WhNAQgsN1r7YEnzAFIXU.Q_GRTOWNV_ks8FhbUTJHv0diGQeeXlLU1GLhp5I CoVLUjdVBmI.M9AFaXC6GP5U12JqdeeT3jgwRhU7OnMg6J1S4DK6Axz_yJXb mVnkukC0Cq5CLXjaNHQWZRsVKJvSX6TdbYbjawUVSqDfjMC47A5XlunWI6RO Kob42IcVFWPQskhSec8hEf738A-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f45.google.com) (74.125.82.45) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 02:54:20 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f45.google.com with SMTP id d140so18451175wmd.0 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 18:54:20 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=3HPuSY9MylZ4BVKbEkWY2atp26Vo1XmLkn2CKit6tr0=; b=AUHrwmNekImmDdJqkPBSK4uPOG+bLhI1rB5Tbj4zW5SOy0SL1wVbTubhWXmD33G3sK 7+6Pa7D/5VnKvY1HaZ7htP/vRrokE5D+26hCerWNqBlUZ1ujAZhfSWxZwGLd78dG/97B sekAIVMEVqmN+HlerjOxOPmh53Ekg92/EvCbRJk03MJcYXirRd2qtfiHRDPwdC/vax9c f3PawKc0ufwRpRBIoU48PnIPLAN73rqRec1q/OlcDjXoczHU+ykjYmvqlqJhGPOJ/SV3 Qg4dfzu3sBydv452beDHIjjkbHLl4Ubgt8YxTs4tJhQJ/bjmPia6c3MUOyPwxRPObfha f5AA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIgM34wt5Lag9dJc2/zSqyAg0bmsTaKJ0TMlbxS756cfYFr2y80E2hz5qtk0tqNVg2CvdK69QZ72U+A7w== X-Received: by 10.223.151.99 with SMTP id r90mr13795807wrb.183.1484967259095; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 18:54:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Jan 2017 18:54:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 21:54:18 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045d5b10fb4a49054691e126 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UHJpIMKrZmljaG/Cuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045d5b10fb4a49054691e126 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara samideani, Semblas esar generala miskompreno pri la vorto =C2=ABficho= =C2=BB. Kande me serchas en dicionarii Franca-Ido, me trovas ke =C2=ABfiche= =C2=BB esas sive =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, sive =C2=ABstifto=C2=BB. Or =C2=ABfiche= =C2=BB esas vorto qua, en la Franca, havas plu kam du senci. Mem plu stran= ja esis ke la Wikivortaro tradukas =C2=ABficho=C2=BB ad Angla kom =C2=AB(in= games) counter, token, check=C2=BB. Or, ka to signifikas, ke =C2=ABtoken= =C2=BB restriktesas a ludi? Nu, segun Pesch, yes. Me do skribis l'artiklo= yena, qua klarigas la senco originala di =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, quale me inter= pretas lu: https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/pri-ficho/ Me deziras, ke on = verifikez ka la rezultajo semblas justa. Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Phili= ppe --f403045d5b10fb4a49054691e126 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara samideani,

Semblas esar gene= rala miskompreno pri la vorto =C2=ABficho=C2=BB. Kande me serchas en dicion= arii Franca-Ido, me trovas ke =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas sive =C2=ABficho=C2=BB= , sive =C2=ABstifto=C2=BB. Or =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas vorto qua, en la Franc= a, havas plu kam du senci.

Mem plu stranja esis ke la Wi= kivortaro tradukas =C2=ABficho=C2=BB ad Angla kom =C2=AB(in games) counter,= token, check=C2=BB. Or, ka to signifikas, ke =C2=ABtoken=C2=BB restriktesa= s a ludi?

Nu, segun Pesch, yes.

=
Me do skribis l'artiklo yena, qua klarigas la senco originala di = =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, quale me interpretas lu:


Me deziras, ke on= verifikez ka la rezultajo semblas justa.

Kun kord= iala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
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Me tre dankas = tu. Me deskonkordas kun nur un frazo: =C2=AB*fine* e *tandem* ne esas sino= nimi.=C2=BB Nu, =C2=ABfine=C2=BB certe esas dusenca, ed un ek ta du senci y= a esas sinonimo di =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB. On trovas, en KGD: *fine la filio o= bediis la matro, la matro esis obediata dal filio;* *Fine il permisis, ke = ni departez.* Tamen me tote agnoskas, ke =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB esas plu preci= za e min miskomprenebla kam =C2=ABfine=C2=BB. Danko, GP 2017-01-20 21:19 = GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto= @yahoogroups.com>: > > > Nu, la exemplo *dika vo=C4=89o* da *Grabowski* ap= aras en la rakonto > *Janko-Muzikanto*, da H. Sienkiewicz, publikigita en 1= 879 en la Polona (*Janko > Muzykant*) ed en 1891 en Esperanto, en la sama v= olumeto kam *La nova jaro* > (*Nowy rok*) da Boles=C5=82aw Prus, volumeto q= uan faksimile ripublikigis en > 1971 mea regretata amiko Reinhard Haupentha= l che Artur E. Iltis. Yen la > koncernata frazo: > > *=C2=ABJanko retenis l= a spiron en la brusto, sed la dika vo=C4=89o demandis la duan > fojon.=C2= =BB* (p. 18) > > Nu, fortunoze la originalo esas lektebla en la reto, i.a. = hike: > > http://wolnelektury.pl/katalog/lektura/janko-muzykant.html > > Ye= n la korespondanta citajo en la Polona: > > *=C2=AB**Janek zatai=C5=82 dech= w piersiach, ale gruby g=C5=82os spyta=C5=82 powt=C3=B3rnie:=C2=BB* > > Nu= , hike Grabowski tradukis vortope: *gruby* ya signifikas =C2=ABdika=C2=BB e= > =C2=ABgrasa=C2=BB en la Polona. Tamen, se on lektas la tota Grabowskiala= tradukuro, > on remarkas, nur kelka linei antee, yena frazo: > > *=C2=AB**= Ia basa dorma vo=C4=89o elvenanta el la angulo de l=E2=80=99 anta=C5=AD=C4= =89ambro demandis > kolere:=C2=BB* (p. 17) > > En la Polona originalo on le= ktas: > > *=C2=AB**Gruby jaki=C5=9B, zaspany g=C5=82os, wychodz=C4=85cy z k= =C4=85ta kredensu spyta=C5=82 > gniewliwie:=C2=BB* > > Nu, on remarkas ke S= ienkiewicz uzis exakte la sama expresuro en amba > frazi (*gruby g=C5=82os*= ), quankam en la unesma, inter l'adjektivo *gruby* e > la substantivo *g=C5= =82os* (=C2=ABvoco=C2=BB) trovesas anke la determinanto *jaki=C5=9B* > (=C2= =ABula=C2=BB) e l'adjektivo *zaspany* (=C2=ABsomnolanta=C2=BB). Tamen Grabo= wski tradukis > *gruby* per *basa* en la unesma frazo e per *dika* en la du= esma. Pro quo? > Forsan pro distrakteso o ne-atenco, forsan pro hastemeso, = nulu savas. Tamen > ica nekonsequantajo esas tre stranja. Irge quale esas, = la fakto ke en 1891, > kande la vortaro di Esperanto esis ankore extreme ma= gra, Grabowski tamen > rekursis a *basa* por tradukar *gruby* montras ke ja= lore la Esperantista > tradukeri bone konciis ke la Espo-vorti esas ordina= re min (mem multe min) > ampla kam la korespondanta vorti di lingui naciona= l. > > Cetere, la sama rakonto *Janko Muzykant* itere trakukesis ad Esperan= to > plu recente, da Danuta Kowalska, pri elqua on povas lektar hike: > > h= ttp://malnova.esperanto.pl/page.php?tid=3D534&lng=3Deo > > Yen la du citita= frazi segun la traduko da Danuta Kowalska: > > *=C2=ABJanko =C4=89esas spi= ri, sed la basa vo=C4=89o ripetas:=C2=BB* > > *=C2=ABiu basa vo=C4=89o el l= a =C4=89ambra angulo demandas kolere:=C2=BB* > > La tota tradukuro da Danut= a Kowalska esas lektebla hike: > > http://malnova.esperanto.pl/page.php?tid= =3D311130 > > Quale on povas facile konstatar, el tradukis *gruby *per *bas= a* en la du > frazi, do el tradukis korekte. > > Cetere, suficas konsultar = omna Espo-dicionarii (Boirac, 1909; Kabe, 1910; *Plena > Vortaro* 1934; Azo= rin 1955; PIV, 1973; NPIV 2002) por konstatar ke nula > donas a *dika* irga= senco aplikebla a voco.... > > Pri *Donald Broadribb*, quon me povas dicar= ? Il esis mea korespondanto. > Tempope me questionis lu pri bibliala temi, = pri la Greka e, precipue, pri > la Hebrea linguo. Il sempre respondis tre d= etaloze e kontentigive. Il ya > esis tre kompetenta en sua faki, ed anke tr= e helpema ed afabla. Cetere, dum > kurta periodo en sua interlinguistikala = periodo, longe ante ke il divenis > mea korespondanto, il okupesis anke pri= Ido e mem skribis tre interesiva e > bel-stila artikli en nia linguo, qui = publikigesis en *Progreso* (anke > Cherpillod agis lo preske en la sama per= iodo, e mem plu ofte). Nu, lua > tradukuri esas pasable bona, sendubite, ma= ne ecelanta. Il ne esis eminenta > tradukero quala Fernando de Diego, Haup= enthal ed altri. Ne mankas en lua > tradukuri peci pluboniginda o mem eroro= za. Yen tri exempli ek lua tradukuro > de Orwell: > > > *a dreary, whining = sort of voice* > > *teda, plenda=C4=89a-speca vo=C4=89o* > > *Always the ey= es watching you and the voice enveloping you.* > > *=C4=88iam la okuloj rig= ardis onin kaj la vo=C4=89o enfaldis onin.* > *a pair of sweaty shorts turn= ed inside out* > *=C5=9Dvitoplena kuloto inversita* > > En la triesma citaj= o, la dik-litera vorto esas duople eroroza: la radiko > esas misselektita (= devus esar *revers/* vice *invers/*) e la misselektita > radiko esas misuzi= ta (*inversita* vice *inversigita*). > > Lua expresuro *maldika vo=C4=89o* = (sustenata da nula Espo-lexikografo) certe > trovesas inter tala serio de p= luboniginda peci... > > La granda problemo pri tradukar vortope tala expres= uri nacional esas ke > expresuri quala =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB povas havar d= iferanta signifiki en diversa > lingui (=C2=ABbasa=C2=BB, =C2=ABsonora=C2= =BB, =C2=ABviratra=C2=BB, =C2=ABrauka=C2=BB, edc), do esas preferinda =E2= =80=93 > mem tre preferinda =E2=80=93 uzar vorto plu specigiva, por evitar = misinterpreti e > miskompreni. > > *fine* e *tandem* ne esas sinonimi. Ordi= nare on dicas *finfine* en nuna > Espo por expresar la koncepto korespondan= ta a *tandem*. Tamen ta vorto ( > *finfine*) segun semblo ne existis en la = 30esma yari dil antea yarcento. > Exemple, *Plena Vortaro* (1934) ne mencio= nas ol. Tamen ta dicionario > klare indikas la du senci di *fine*: *=C2=AB1= . =C4=88e la fino (tempe a=C5=AD loke). 2. > Post longa atendado.=C2=BB* Po= r la duesma senco on nun ofte dicas *finfine* > vice nur *fine* en Espo, po= r evitar miskompreni, ed on dicas *tandem* en > Ido. Lingui esas tala: li e= volucionas e pokope pluricheskas segun sua > propra ritmo e bezoni. Me vida= s nula problemo en to. *tandem* esas vorto > uzata en Ido ja de 1967! > > >= > 2017-01-18 15:22 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [l= inguolisto] : > >> >> Certe, segun TLFi, =C2= =ABtenua=C2=BB esas antonimo di =C2=ABdensa=C2=BB e =C2=ABgrosa=C2=BB: >> h= ttp://www.cnrtl.fr/antonymie/t%C3%A9nu >> >> Segun TLFi, esas difero inter = =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB (grosa voco) e =C2=ABvoix >> =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB. = =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB esas voco grosa, forta, dum ke =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9pai= sse=C2=BB esas >> voco rauka pro salivo densa. >> >> La Angla facas la sama= distingo: https://en.oxforddic >> tionaries.com/definition/thick >> >> Tua= exemplo, =C2=ABintestino tenua=C2=BB, remarkigis da me ke anke la Franca = =C2=ABvoix >> gr=C3=AAle=C2=BB tradukesas a Ido per =C2=ABvoco tenua=C2=BB.= .. >> >> http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/gr%C3%AAle >> >> Donald Broadribb, = eminenta membro di AdE, anke uzis =C2=ABmaldika=C2=BB (tenua, >> anke por l= a intestino) por deskriptar voco en sua tradukuro *Mil Na=C5=ADcent >> Okde= k Kvar* (p. 164): >> http://i-espero.info/files/elibroj/eo%20-%20orwell,%20= george >> %20-%201984.pdf >> >> Pluse: =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB en la lib= ro *Du Rakontoj en la linguo internacia >> esperanto: la nova Jaro*, Antoni= Grabowski, 1891, p. 18: >> https://books.google.ca/books?id=3Dlte6q3vgFjUC= &printsec=3Dfrontcover >> >> Nu, la eminenta Antoni Grabowski tradukis =C2= =ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB de... la Polona! To >> demonstras ke =C2=ABgrosa vo= co=C2=BB e =C2=ABtenua voco=C2=BB ya esas exter DEFIRS. >> >> (Aparte, fors= an tu havus la litero =C2=ABG=C2=BB en PIV vice =C2=ABGN=C2=BB se Antoni >>= Grabowski ne esabus Esperantisto...) >> >> Nu, se tala Esperantisti uzis = =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB en la praktikale maxim neutra >> konstruktita linguo en l= a mondo, forsan to ne esas grava. Forsan to *tre* >> neimportas! >> >> Tala= kompari kun DEFIRS, e mem Esperanto, povus esar senfina! >> >> =C2=ABGille= s-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmetaforala uzi tro "nacionala", >> s= en internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la= >> Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga= >> linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro.=C2=BB >> >> Nu, Ido ed Esperanto hav= as =C2=ABfine!=C2=BB (D. endlich! E. at last! F. enfin! I. >> finalmente! S= . =C2=A1por fin!), =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB (D. Erdapfel, F. pomme de terre) e >= > =C2=ABridetar=C2=BB (L. subridere, F. sourire, I. sorridere, S. sonre=C3= =ADr), qui >> sustenesas ne da logiko ma da DEFIRS. Same pri =C2=ABmarhundo= =C2=BB en Ido (D. >> Seehund, E. sea dog), =C2=ABbernaklo-muslo=C2=BB (E. F= . barnacle)... >> >> Se on bezonus plu kam nur DEFIRS, nu, ni quik reformez= nia linguo... tre >> severe. Semblas ke on ja komencis la laboro per =C2= =ABtandem=C2=BB e =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB... Nun >> ni quik trovez nova vorti po= r la altri! >> >> En mea opiniono, me judikas plu grava la vorti quin, en I= do, on uzas >> kande lia senco *ja restriktesis*. Exemple, me ja vidis cert= ena Franculo >> uzar =C2=ABsuperba=C2=BB omnube lu volis tradukar la Franca= =C2=ABsuperbe=C2=BB (belega). Nu! >> To esas eroro, nam la senci definita = interdiktas tala uzo. Me ja vidis, tre >> ofte, (e certe me ipsa inkluzite)= uli uzar =C2=ABaktiva=C2=BB vice =C2=ABagiva=C2=BB: =C2=ABaktiva >> Idisto= , aktiva volkano=C2=BB. Nu! To anke esas eroro, nam la senci definita >> in= terdiktas tala uzo. O me ja vidis =C2=ABspecifika=C2=BB (teknikala vorto!) = vice >> =C2=ABspecigiva=C2=BB. E.c., e.c., e.c.. >> >> 2017-01-18 6:31 GMT-= 05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] >> : >> >>> >>> Gilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmet= aforala uzi tro "nacionala", >>> sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne vizis= partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la >>> Franca linguo. Mea remarko esis gene= rala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga >>> linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-kadro. = Anke en la Portugalana on uzas la vorto >>> "t=C3=A9nue" ("t=C3=AAnue" en B= razilia) kun multa senci (i.a. anke pri voco e >>> vaporo!), do expresuri q= uala "tenua vaporo" o "tenua voco" tote ne shokas >>> mea linguo-sento. Tam= en Ido havas altra principi e kustumi kam nia lingui >>> nacional. Exemple,= en omna AFGHIR-lingui (ed en preske omna lingui en la >>> mondo!) la vorto= korespondanta a "kirko" signifikas anke "eklezio", ma Ido >>> (same kam Es= peranto) vortarale distingas la du koncepti. Do la temo esas >>> plu amplex= a e komplikita kam on povus supozar unesma-regarde. >>> >>> La fakto ke, en= la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat, on lektas =C2=AB*t=C3=A9nue >>= > :* tenua=C2=BB (p. 536), sen plusa konsideri, sen subsenci, sen exempli, = ne >>> necese implikas ke omna senci e subsenci di "t=C3=A9nue" automatale = tradukesas >>> per "tenua"! Se on komparas, exemple, en la sama lexiko, ica= artiklo pri >>> "t=C3=A9nu" (maxim magra!) ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (p. = 277), on shokesas dal >>> difero ed on darfas questionar su pro quo existas= tala difero. Se on >>> konsultas l'artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trov= as multa senci e subsenci, >>> multa uzi figurala, ed anke multa exempli: >= >> >>> http://atilf.atilf.fr/ >>> >>> Evidente Beaufront e Couturat ne kons= ultis TLFi (qua lore ne existis), >>> ma li certe konsultis ula Franca-ling= ua dicionario (o mem pluri) por >>> kompozar sua lexiko. Quan (o quin) li k= onsultis? Nulu savas. Tamen, kande >>> me apertas mea exemplero di ilustrit= a Larousse (1983) e me lektas lua >>> artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", me trovas nu= r yena defino, sen subsenci, sen exempli: >>> =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr=C3=A8= s mince=C2=BB. Kande me konsultas l'artiklo pri "gros, grosse" en >>> la sa= ma verko, me trovas sat detaloza artiklo, kontenanta multa subsenci ed >>> = exempli. Pluse, kelka exempli esas egala ad olti prizentita en l'artiklo >>= > "gros, grosse" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat. Yen la komparo inter >= >> Larousse (L) e Beaufront/Couturat (B/C): >>> >>> un gros arbe (L) >>> >>= > grosse somme (L) >>> grosse fi=C3=A8vre (L) >>> gros drap (L, B/C) >>> de= gros souliers (L) >>> du gros rouge (L) >>> gros commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros= n=C3=A9gociant (B/C), marchand de gros (B/C) >>> grosse mer (L, B/C) >>> g= rosse voix (L) >>> grosse viande (B/C) >>> gros temps (B/C) >>> gros mots (= B/C) >>> gros joueur (B/C) >>> gros de six mois (B/C) >>> en gros (L, B/C),= tout en gros (B/C) >>> un gros (B/C) >>> le gros de (B/C) >>> acheter en g= ros (L) >>> avoir le c=C5=93ur gros (L, B/C) >>> >>> avoir les yeux gros de= larmes (L) >>> faire les gros yeux (L) >>> >>> gagner gros (L) >>> >>> =C3= =A9crire gros (L, B/C) >>> >>> en avoir gros sur le c=C5=93ur (B/C) >>> >>>= commerce en gros (B/C) >>> >>> rapporter gros (B/C) >>> >>> il ya gros =C3= =A0 parier que (B/C) >>> fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C) >>> >>> On povas konst= atar ke, en ica artiklo, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat >>> kontenas plu m= ulta exempli kam Larousse (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke >>> lia lexiko e= sas tre kompetente kompozita, quankam li certe ne disponis tam >>> multa mo= yeni kam la profesionala esquado qua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, >>> se li= skribis tante magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga >>> n= esorgemeso o manko di lexikografiala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to >>> kon= sequas nur de ke anke la Franca-lingua dicionarii quin li konsultis >>> pri= zentis (same kam Larousse) tre magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la= >>> unesma senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi (=C2=ABQui est tr=C3=A8s mince, tr= =C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) esas >>> preske egala al unika senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en l= a mencionita edituro di Larousse (=C2=ABTr=C3=A8s >>> fin, tr=C3=A8s mince= =C2=BB). Measupoze, ica esas la bazala senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la >>> Franc= a, l'unika quan Beaufront e Couturat trovis en la konsultita >>> dicionarii= e l'unika quan li fakte tradukis. Pluse, quale on povas >>> konstatar sub = "fin" (p. 248) li atribuis a "tenua" anke un del senci di >>> "fin" en la F= ranca, nome, olta di "konsistanta ek mikra partikuli" (A: >>> *fine*, F: *f= in*, G: *fein*; H: *fino*; I: *minuto*,* fine*; R: >>> =D0=BC=D0=B5=D0=BB= =D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9), aplikebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, faruno edc. = Tamen >>> Dyer e Pesch tradukas tala senco per "subtila", quo semblas a me= plu >>> logikoza e preferinda: la partikuli ya esas tenua, ma la substanco= >>> konsistanta ek tala partikuli esas subtila, ne tenua. >>> >>> Pluse, k= ande on konsultas l'artiklo "=C3=A9pais" en la lexiko da >>> Beaufront/Cout= urat on trovas (p. 218): >>> >>> *=C3=A9pais* [...] (*dense: fluide, brouil= lard*) densa. >>> >>> Or, se nebulo "=C3=A9pais" esas "densa" segun Beaufro= nt/Couturat, on expektas >>> ke nebulo "t=C3=A9nu" esos "desdensa" o "neden= sa", e ne "tenua". >>> >>> Kande on konsultas l'artiklo "faible" en la sama= lexiko, on lektas i.a. >>> >>> *faible* (*adj.*) [...] (*voix*) ne-sonor= a. >>> >>> Lektinte lo, on expektas ke "grosse voix" (regretinde mankanta e= n la >>> exempli che Couturat/Beaufront) esos "sonora voco" (ne "grosa voco= ") e ke >>> lua kontreajo esos "ne-sonora voco" (ne "tenua voco"). >>> >>> = Cetere, en la Angla-Ido-lexiko da Dyer on trovas (p. 343): >>> >>> *thin :*= [...] (*in space*) des-densa (air, etc.) >>> >>> Anke la Germana-Ido-lexik= o da Feder (1920) donas "des-densa" kom un del >>> tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn"= (p. 177). Cetere, ica artiklo pri "d=C3=BCnn" (same kam la >>> tota lexiko= !) esas certe studiinda, nam ol prizentas interesiva solvi ed >>> exempli: = dina; tenua (=C2=ABtenua-gamba=C2=BB, =C2=ABtenua intestino=C2=BB); gracila= ; magra; >>> skarsa (=C2=ABskarsa-barba=C2=BB); fluida; aquatra; dilutita; = ne-densa (=C2=ABne-densa >>> biro=C2=BB); plata (=C2=ABplata ventro=C2=BB).= >>> >>> Pri "galerio" me konkordas. >>> >>> Nu, me skribis tro multe... >>= > >>> GN >>> >>> >>> >>> 2017-01-17 22:47 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin g= phmorin@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>>>= >>>> "tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu esas anke Angla. >>>> tenua = =3D tenuous =3D 2. Rare; subtile; not dense; -- said of fluids. >>>> http:/= /www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous >>>> >>>> Me anke trovis libri en Googl= e qui uzas "tenuous voice", ex. *Guest of >>>> a Sinner* da James Wilcox (p= . 40): >>>> *"They've been phoning me," Una Merton went on in a tenuous voi= ce, >>>> almost a whisper.* >>>> >>>> Me ne bone komprenas la Hispana, ma s= emblas, segun Google, ke "voz >>>> tenue" ya uzesas... Ka to vere esas naci= onala expresuro??? >>>> *"Con voz tenue y ojos entornados, Hajji relata su = historia."* >>>> http://www.unfpa.org/es/node/5897 >>>> >>>> "Por komprenar= Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, >>>> la Angla od ir= g altra linguo..." >>>> Me deskonkordas, nam per sat bona dicionario kun de= fini en Ido, ni >>>> povus uzar ta figurala senci en Ido e per Ido, sen bez= onar DEFIRS. >>>> >>>> La problemo, kun tua exempli, venas ke tu uzis la le= xiko Franca-Ido. Se >>>> tu uzus la lexiko Ido-Franca, tu vidus quante vast= a la defini esas... >>>> ultempe mem sen ula precizigo di la senco. Do "ten= ua" signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e)", *en >>>> omna senci.* >>>> >>>> En la sama m= aniero, me konkluzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke >>>> lu signifik= as en la Franca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la >>>> senco t= eatrala, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco: >>>> http= s://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/galerio >>>> >>>> Fine, la exempli da de Beaufro= nt esas forsan eroroza, me konkordas. >>>> Danko pro savigar la existo di "= endetala" e "engrosa" da me! >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > --001a1148d536043a1c05469257f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, me nultempe imaginis recevar tante bona e rica respond= o! Me tre dankas tu.

Me deskonkordas kun nur un frazo: =C2=AB<= b>fine e tandem ne esas sinonimi.=C2=BB Nu, =C2=ABfine=C2=BB cer= te esas dusenca, ed un ek ta du senci ya esas sinonimo di =C2=ABtandem=C2= =BB.

On trovas, en KGD:
fine= la filio obediis la matro, la matro esis obediata dal filio;
Fine il permisis, ke ni departez.
<= br>
Tamen me tote agnoskas, ke =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB esas plu pr= eciza e min miskomprenebla kam =C2=ABfine=C2=BB.

D= anko,
GP

2017-01-20 21:19 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Nu, la exemp= lo dika vo=C4=89o da = Grabowski aparas en la rakonto = Janko-Muzikanto, da H. Sienkiewicz, publikigita en 1879 en la Po= lona (Janko Muzykant) ed en 1891 en Esperanto, en la sama volumeto k= am La nova jaro (Nowy= rok) da Boles=C5=82aw Prus, volumeto quan faksimile ripublikigis en 19= 71 mea regretata amiko Reinhard Haupenthal che Artur E. Iltis. Yen la konce= rnata frazo:

=C2=ABJan= ko retenis la spiron en la brusto, sed la dika vo=C4=89o demandis la= duan fojon.=C2=BB (p. 18)

Nu,, fortunoze la originalo esas lekteb= la en la reto, i.a. hike:

http://wo= lnelektury.pl/katalog/lektura/janko-muzykant.html

Yen = la korespondanta citajo en la Polona:

=C2=ABJanek zatai=C5=82 dech w piersiach, ale gruby g=C5=82o= s spyta=C5=82 powt=C3=B3rnie:=C2=BB

Nu, hike Gra= bowski tradukis vortope: gruby ya signifikas =C2=ABdika=C2=BB e =C2= =ABgrasa=C2=BB en la Polona. Tamen, se on lektas la tota Grabowskiala tradu= kuro, on remarkas, nur kelka linei antee, yena frazo:

=C2=ABIa basa dorma vo=C4=89o elvenant= a el la angulo de l=E2=80=99 anta=C5=AD=C4=89ambro demandis kolere:=C2=BB (p. 17)

En la Polona originalo on lektas:

=C2=ABGruby jaki=C5=9B, zaspany g=C5=82os, wychodz=C4= =85cy z k=C4=85ta kredensu spyta=C5=82 gniewliwie:=C2=BB

=
Nu, on remarkas= ke Sienkiewicz uzis exakte la sama expresuro en amba frazi (gruby g=C5=82os), quankam en la unesma, inter l'adjek= tivo gruby e la substantivo g=C5=82os<= /i> (=C2=ABvoco=C2=BB) trovesas anke la determinanto jaki= =C5=9B (=C2=ABula=C2=BB) e l'adjektivo zaspan= y (=C2=ABsomnolanta=C2=BB). Tamen Grabowski tradukis gruby per <= span style=3D"color:rgb(19,79,92)">basa en la unesma frazo e = per dika en la duesma. P= ro quo? Forsan pro distrakteso o ne-atenco, forsan pro hastemeso, nulu sava= s. Tamen ica nekonsequantajo esas tre stranja. Irge quale esas, la fakto ke= en 1891, kande la vortaro di Esperanto esis ankore extreme magra, Grabowsk= i tamen rekursis a basa = por tradukar gruby montras ke ja lore la Esperantista tradukeri bone konciis k= e la Espo-vorti esas ordinare min (mem multe min) ampla kam la korespondant= a vorti di lingui nacional.

Cetere, la sama rakonto Janko Muzykant = itere trakukesis ad Esperanto plu recente, da Danuta Kowalska, pri elqua on= povas lektar hike:

http://malnova.esperanto.pl/page.php?tid=3D534&lng=3Deo

Yen la du citita frazi segun la = traduko da Danuta Kowalska:

= =C2=ABJanko =C4=89esas spiri, sed la basa vo=C4=89o ripetas:=C2=BB

=C2=ABiu basa v= o=C4=89o el la =C4=89ambra angulo demandas kolere:=C2=BB
La tota tra= dukuro da Danuta Kowalska esas lektebla hike:

http:= //malnova.esperanto.pl/page.php?tid=3D311130

=
Quale on p= ovas facile konstatar, el tradukis = gruby per basa en la du frazi, do el tradukis korekte.

<= /span>
Cetere, suficas konsultar omna Espo-dicionarii (Boirac, 1909; = Kabe, 1910; Plena Vortaro 1934; Azorin 1955; PIV, 1973; NPIV 2002) p= or konstatar ke nula donas a dika irga senco aplikebla a voco....

Pri Donald Broadribb, quon me povas= dicar? Il esis mea korespondanto. Tempope me questionis lu pri bibliala te= mi, pri la Greka e, precipue, pri la Hebrea linguo. Il sempre respondis tre= detaloze e kontentigive. Il ya esis tre kompetenta en sua faki, ed anke tr= e helpema ed afabla. Cetere, dum kurta periodo en sua interlinguistikala pe= riodo, longe ante ke il divenis mea korespondanto, il okupesis anke pri Ido= e mem skribis tre interesiva e bel-stila artikli en nia linguo, qui publik= igesis en Progreso (anke Cherpillod agis lo preske en la sama period= o, e mem plu ofte). Nu, lua tradukuri esas pasable bona, sendubite, ma ne e= celanta. Il ne esis eminenta tradukero quala Fernando de Diego, Haupenthal = ed altri. Ne mankas en lua tradukuri peci pluboniginda o mem eroroza. Yen t= ri exempli ek lua tradukuro de Orwell:
=
a dreary, whining sort of voice
teda, plenda=C4=89a-speca= vo=C4=89o

Always the eyes watching you and the voice enveloping you.
=C4=88iam la okuloj rigardis = onin kaj la vo=C4=89o enfaldis onin.

a pair of sweaty shorts turned inside out
=C5=9Dvitoplena kul= oto inversita

En la triesma citajo, la dik-litera vorto esas duopl= e eroroza: la radiko esas misselektita (devus esar revers/ vice invers/) e la misselektita radiko esas misuzita <= font size=3D"4">(inversita vice inversigita).

Lua expresuro m= aldika vo=C4=89o (sustenata da nula Espo-lexikografo) certe trovesas in= ter tala serio de pluboniginda peci...

La granda problemo pri tradukar vortope tala = expresuri nacional esas ke expresuri quala =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB povas hav= ar diferanta signifiki en diversa lingui (=C2=ABbasa=C2=BB, =C2=ABsonora=C2= =BB, =C2=ABviratra=C2=BB, =C2=ABrauka=C2=BB, edc), do esas preferinda =E2=80=93 mem tre preferin= da =E2=80=93 uzar vor= to plu specigiva, por evitar misinterpreti e miskompreni.

<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">fine e tandem ne esas sinonimi. Ordinare on dicas = finfine en nuna Espo por expresar la koncepto korespondanta a= tandem. Tamen ta vorto (fin= fine) segun semblo ne existis en la 30esma yari dil antea yarcen= to. Exemple, Plena Vortaro (1934) ne mencionas ol. Tamen ta dicionar= io klare indikas la du senci di fin= e: =C2=AB1. =C4= =88e la fino (tempe a=C5=AD loke). 2. Post longa atendado.=C2=BB= Por la duesma senco on nun ofte dicas finfine vice nur fine en Espo, por evitar miskompreni, ed on dicas tandem<= /b> en Ido. Lingui esas tala: li evolucionas e pokope pluricheskas segun su= a propra ritmo e bezoni. Me vidas nula problemo en to. tandem esas v= orto uzata en Ido ja de 1967!

=C2=A0

2017-01-18 15:= 22 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolist= o@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=
Certe, segun TLFi, =C2=ABtenua= =C2=BB esas antonimo di =C2=ABdensa=C2=BB e =C2=ABgrosa=C2=BB:
http://= www.cnrtl.fr/antonymie/t%C3%A9nu

Segu= n TLFi, esas difero inter =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB (grosa voco) e =C2=ABvoix= =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB. =C2=ABgrosse voix=C2=BB esas voco grosa, forta, dum ke= =C2=ABvoix =C3=A9paisse=C2=BB esas voco rauka pro salivo densa.
=
La Angla facas la sama distingo:=C2=A0https://en.oxfor= ddictionaries.com/definition/thick

Tua ex= emplo, =C2=ABintestino tenua=C2=BB, remarkigis da me ke anke la Franca =C2= =ABvoix gr=C3=AAle=C2=BB tradukesas a Ido per =C2=ABvoco tenua=C2=BB...


Donald Broadribb, eminenta membro di AdE, ank= e uzis =C2=ABmaldika=C2=BB (tenua, anke por la intestino) por deskriptar vo= co en sua tradukuro Mil Na=C5=ADcent Okdek Kvar (p. 164):

= Pluse: =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB en la libro=C2=A0Du Rakontoj en la lin= guo internacia esperanto: la nova Jaro, Antoni Grabowski, 1891, p. 18:<= /div>

Nu, la eminenta Antoni Grabowski tradukis =C2=ABdika vo=C4=89o=C2=BB = de... la Polona! To demonstras ke =C2=ABgrosa voco=C2=BB e =C2=ABtenua voco= =C2=BB ya esas exter DEFIRS.

(Aparte, forsan tu ha= vus la litero =C2=ABG=C2=BB en PIV vice =C2=ABGN=C2=BB se Antoni Grabowski = ne esabus Esperantisto...)

Nu, se tala Esperantist= i uzis =C2=ABtenua=C2=BB en la praktikale maxim neutra konstruktita linguo = en la mondo, forsan to ne esas grava. Forsan to tre neimportas!

Tala kompari kun DEFIRS, e mem Esperanto, povus esar s= enfina!

=C2=ABGilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pr= i =C2=ABmetaforala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaciona susteno= =C2=BB me ne vizis partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la Franca lingu= o. Mea remarko esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga linguo, mem ext= er la AFGHIR-kadro.=C2=BB

Nu, Ido ed Esperanto havas = =C2=ABfine!=C2=BB (D. endlich!=C2=A0E. at last! F. enfin! I. finalmente! S.= =C2=A1por fin!), =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB (D. Erdapfel, F. pomme de terre) e = =C2=ABridetar=C2=BB (L. subridere, F. sourire, I. sorridere, S. sonre=C3=AD= r), qui sustenesas ne da logiko ma da DEFIRS. Same pri =C2=ABmarhundo=C2=BB= en Ido (D. Seehund, E. sea dog), =C2=ABbernaklo-muslo=C2=BB (E. F. barnacl= e)...

Se on bezonus plu kam nur DEFIRS, nu, ni quik refo= rmez nia linguo... tre severe. Semblas ke on ja komencis la laboro per =C2= =ABtandem=C2=BB e =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB... Nun ni quik trovez nova vorti por l= a altri!

En mea opiniono, me judikas plu grava la = vorti quin, en Ido, on uzas kande lia senco ja restriktesis. Exemple= , me ja vidis certena Franculo uzar =C2=ABsuperba=C2=BB omnube lu volis tra= dukar la Franca =C2=ABsuperbe=C2=BB (belega). Nu! To esas eroro, nam la sen= ci definita interdiktas tala uzo. Me ja vidis, tre ofte, (e certe me ipsa i= nkluzite) uli uzar =C2=ABaktiva=C2=BB vice =C2=ABagiva=C2=BB: =C2=ABaktiva = Idisto, aktiva volkano=C2=BB. Nu! To anke esas eroro, nam la senci definita= interdiktas tala uzo. O me ja vidis =C2=ABspecifika=C2=BB (teknikala vorto= !) vice =C2=ABspecigiva=C2=BB. E.c., e.c., e.c..

2017-01-18 6:31 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7= alo Neves gneves64@= gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= :
=C2=A0
=
= Gilles-Philippe, kande me avertis pri =C2=ABmeta= forala uzi tro "nacionala", sen internaciona susteno=C2=BB me ne = vizis partikulare la vorto "tenua" o la Franca linguo. Mea remark= o esis generala e koncernis irga vorto ed irga linguo, mem exter la AFGHIR-= kadro. Anke en la Portugalana on uzas la vorto "t=C3=A9nue" (&quo= t;t=C3=AAnue" en Brazilia) kun multa senci (i.a. anke pri voco e vapor= o!), do expresuri quala "tenua vaporo" o "tenua voco" t= ote ne shokas mea linguo-sento. Tamen Ido havas altra principi e kustumi ka= m nia lingui nacional. Exemple, en omna AFGHIR-lingui (ed en preske omna li= ngui en la mondo!) la vorto korespondanta a "kirko" signifikas an= ke "eklezio", ma Ido (same kam Esperanto) vortarale distingas la = du koncepti. Do la temo esas plu amplexa e komplikita kam on povus supozar = unesma-regarde.

La fakto ke, en la Franca-Ido-lexiko da Beaufront/C= outurat, on lektas =C2=ABt=C3=A9nue : tenua=C2=BB (p. 536), sen plus= a konsideri, sen subsenci, sen exempli, ne necese implikas ke omna senci e = subsenci di "t=C3=A9nue" automatale tradukesas per "tenua&qu= ot;! Se on komparas, exemple, en la sama lexiko, ica artiklo pri "t=C3= =A9nu" (maxim magra!) ad olta pri "gros, grosse" (p. 277), o= n shokesas dal difero ed on darfas questionar su pro quo existas tala difer= o. Se on konsultas l'artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi on trova= s multa senci e subsenci, multa uzi figurala, ed anke multa exempli:=C2=A0 =

http://atilf.atilf.fr/

<= /span>
Evidente Beaufront e C= outurat ne konsultis TLFi (qua lore ne existis), ma li certe konsultis ula = Franca-lingua dicionario (o mem pluri) por kompozar sua lexiko. Quan (o qui= n) li konsultis? Nulu savas. Tamen, kande me apertas mea exemplero di ilust= rita Larousse (1983) e me lektas lua artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu", me = trovas nur yena defino, sen subsenci, sen exempli: =C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr= =C3=A8s mince=C2=BB. Kande me konsultas l'artiklo pri "gros, gross= e" en la sama verko, me trovas sat detaloza artiklo, kontenanta multa = subsenci ed exempli. Pluse, kelka exempli esas egala ad olti prizentita en = l'artiklo "gros, grosse" en la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat. = Yen la komparo inter Larousse (L) e Beaufront/Couturat (B/C):

un gros arbe (L)

grosse somme (L)
g= rosse fi=C3=A8vre (L)
gros drap (L, B/C)
de gros souliers (L)
d= u gros rouge (L)
gros commer=C3=A7ant (L), gros n=C3=A9gociant (B/C), m= archand de gros (B/C)
grosse mer (L, B/C)
grosse voix (L)
gross= e viande (B/C)
gros temps (B/C)
gros mots (B/C)
gros joueur (B/= C)
gros de six mois (B/C)
en gros (L, B/C), tout en gros (B/C)
= un gros (B/C)
le gros de (B/C)
acheter en gros (L)
avoir le c= =C5=93ur gros (L, B/C)

avoir les yeux gros de larmes (L) faire les gros yeux=C2=A0(L)

gagner gros (L)

=C3=A9crire gros (L, B/C)

en avoir gros sur le c=C5= =93ur (B/C)

commerce en gros (B/C)

rappor= ter gros (B/C)

il ya gros =C3=A0 parier que (B/C)=

fait =C3=A0 la grosse (B/C)

<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">On povas konstatar ke, en = ica artiklo, la lexiko da Beaufront/Couturat kontenas plu multa exempli kam= Larousse (20 kontre 16)! To ya montras ke lia lexiko esas tre kompetente k= ompozita, quankam li certe ne disponis tam multa moyeni kam la profesionala= esquado qua kompozis Larousse. Konseque, se li skribis tante magra artiklo= pri "t=C3=A9nu", to ne konsequas de irga nesorgemeso o manko di = lexikografiala kompetenteso. Me supozas ke to konsequas nur de ke anke la F= ranca-lingua dicionarii quin li konsultis prizentis (same kam Larousse) tre= magra artiklo pri "t=C3=A9nu". Parenteze, la unesma senco di &qu= ot;t=C3=A9nu" en TLFi = (=C2=AB<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Qui est tr=C3=A8s mince<= /span>, tr=C3=A8s fin=C2=BB) esas preske egala al unika senco= di "t=C3=A9nu" en la mencionita edituro di Larousse (=C2=ABTr=C3=A8s fin, tr=C3=A8s mince=C2=BB).= Measupoze, ica esas la bazala senco di "t=C3=A9nu" en la Franca,= l'unika quan Beaufront e Couturat trovis en la konsultita dicionarii e= l'unika quan li fakte tradukis. Pluse, quale on povas konstatar sub &q= uot;fin" (p. 248) li atribuis a "tenua" anke un del senci di= "fin" en la Franca, nome, olta di "konsistanta ek mikra par= tikuli" (A: fine, F: fin, G: f= ein; H: fino; I: minuto, fine; R: =D0=BC=D0=B5=D0= =BB=D0=BA=D0=B8=D0=B9), aplikebla a sablo, pluvo, polvo, pulvero, faruno ed= c.=C2=A0 Tamen Dyer e Pesch tradu= kas tala senco per "subtila", quo semblas a me plu logikoza e pre= ferinda: la partikuli ya esas tenua, ma la substanco konsistanta ek tala pa= rtikuli esas subtila, ne tenua.

<= /span>
Plus= e, kande on konsultas l'artiklo "=C3=A9pais" en la lexiko da = Beaufront/Couturat on trovas (p. 218):

=
=C3=A9pais [...] (dense: fluide, brouillard) densa.
Or, se nebulo "=C3=A9pais" esas= "densa" segun Beaufront/Couturat, on expektas ke nebulo "t= =C3=A9nu" esos "desdensa" o "nedensa", e ne "= tenua".

Kande on konsultas l= 9;artiklo "faible" en la sama lexiko, on lektas i.a.

= faible=C2=A0 (adj.)=C2=A0 [...] (<= i>voix) ne-sonora.

Lektinte lo,= on expektas ke "grosse voix" (regretinde mankanta en la exempli = che Couturat/Beaufront) esos "sonora voco" (ne "grosa voco&q= uot;) e ke lua kontreajo esos "ne-sonora voco" (ne "tenua vo= co").

= Cetere, en la Angla-Ido-l= exiko da Dyer on trovas (p. 343):

thin : [...] (in space) des-densa (air, etc.)

Anke la Germana-Ido-lexiko da Feder (1920) donas &quo= t;des-densa" kom un del tradukuri di "d=C3=BCnn" (p. 177). C= etere, ica artiklo pri "d=C3=BCnn" (same kam la tota lexiko!) esa= s certe studiinda, nam ol prizentas interesiva solvi ed exempli: dina; tenu= a (=C2=ABtenua-gamba=C2=BB, =C2=ABtenua intestino=C2=BB); gracila; magra; s= karsa (=C2=ABskarsa-barba=C2=BB); fluida; aquatra; dilutita; ne-densa (=C2= =ABne-densa biro=C2=BB); plata (=C2=ABplata ventro=C2=BB).

Pri "galerio" me konkordas.

=
Nu, me skribis tro multe...

<= /span>
GN



2017-01-17 22:47 GMT+00:00 G= illes-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.= com>:
=C2=A0
=
"tenua vaporo" ne esas nacionala nam lu es= as anke Angla.
tenua =3D tenuous =3D=C2=A02. Rare; subtile; not dense; = -- said of fluids.=C2=A0http://www.websters1913.com/words/Tenuous

Me anke trovis libri en Google qui uzas "tenuous= voice", ex. Guest of a Sinner=C2=A0da James Wilcox (p. 40):
"They've been phoning me," Una Merton went on in a= tenuous voice, almost a whisper.

Me ne= bone komprenas la Hispana, ma semblas, segun Google, ke "voz tenue&qu= ot; ya uzesas... Ka to vere esas nacionala expresuro???
"= Con voz tenue y ojos entornados, Hajji relata su historia."
<= div>http://= www.unfpa.org/es/node/5897

"Por = komprenar Ido, on ne mustez lernar unesme la Franca, la Germana, la Angla o= d irg altra linguo..."
Me deskonkordas, nam per sat bona= dicionario kun defini en Ido, ni povus uzar ta figurala senci en Ido e per= Ido, sen bezonar DEFIRS.

La problemo, kun tua exe= mpli, venas ke tu uzis la lexiko Franca-Ido. Se tu uzus la lexiko Ido-Franc= a, tu vidus quante vasta la defini esas... ultempe mem sen ula precizigo di= la senco. Do "tenua" signifikas "t=C3=A9nu(e)", en = omna senci.

En la sama maniero, me konk= luzis, pos kontrolis la vorto "galerio", ke lu signifikas en la F= ranca "galerie" nur e simple, do lu anke inkluzas la senco teatra= la, quan Pesch mankis. To esas pro quo me adjuntis ta senco:=C2=A0https://io.wi= ktionary.org/wiki/galerio

Fine, la exempl= i da de Beaufront esas forsan eroroza, me konkordas. Danko pro savigar la e= xisto di "endetala" e "engrosa" da me!

=
<= /span>


<= /div>


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Se on povas skribar =C2=ABla Idolinguo=C2=BB,
kad on p= ovas anke skribar
=C2=ABla Newtonfilozofo=C2=BB?
=C2=AB= la Darwinnaturalisto=C2=BB?
=C2=ABla Verneautoro=C2=BB?
=C2=ABla Galileofizikisto=C2=BB?
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Quo esas la origino di ta vortaro?

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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 03:59:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 03:59:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 11:59:15 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d15eef13d380546997e8f Subject: Re: [linguo] dika literi X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=VytPZHW-zBPpbKEHZ5cNZzj5CC_vOKhZZRWiKAkk_uKjnw-n9cQRag X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a113d15eef13d380546997e8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, tu juste dicas ke un ek la senci di *fine* esas sinonimo di *tandem*. = Do olca esas ulsorta "mi-sinonimo" di olta. Anke me dankas tu, pro tua nee= xhaustebla kuriozeso ed explorigiva savemeso! 2017-01-21 3:27 GMT+00:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Nu, me nultempe imaginis recevar tante bona e rica respon= do! Me tre dankas > tu. > > Me deskonkordas kun nur un frazo: =C2=AB*fine* = e *tandem* ne esas sinonimi.=C2=BB > Nu, =C2=ABfine=C2=BB certe esas dusenc= a, ed un ek ta du senci ya esas sinonimo di > =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB. > > On tr= ovas, en KGD: > *fine la filio obediis la matro, la matro esis obediata dal= filio;* > > *Fine il permisis, ke ni departez.* > > Tamen me tote agnoskas= , ke =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB esas plu preciza e min miskomprenebla > kam =C2=ABf= ine=C2=BB. > > Danko, > GP > > --001a113d15eef13d380546997e8f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, tu juste dicas ke un ek la= senci di fine esas sinonimo di tandem. Do olca esas ulsorta = "mi-sinonimo" di olta.

Anke me dankas tu, pro tua neexhau= stebla kuriozeso ed explorigiva savemeso!=C2=A0


2017-01-21 = 3:27 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin = gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.co= m>:
<= u>
=C2=A0

Nu, me nultempe imaginis recevar tante bona e rica respondo!= Me tre dankas tu.

Me deskonkordas kun nur un frazo: =C2=AB= fine e tandem ne esas sinonimi.=C2=BB Nu, =C2=ABfine=C2=BB certe= esas dusenca, ed un ek ta du senci ya esas sinonimo di =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB.=

On trovas, en KGD:
fine= la filio obediis la matro, la matro esis obediata dal filio;
=
Fine il permisis, ke ni departez.

<= /i>
Tamen me tote agnoskas, ke =C2=ABtandem=C2=BB esas plu preciz= a e min miskomprenebla kam =C2=ABfine=C2=BB.

Danko= ,
GP



--001a113d15eef13d380546997e8f-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4900 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 16600 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 12:11:05 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m8.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 12:11:05 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 16380 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 12:11:05 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 12:11:05 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.54 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: _T8Pf.IWLDvoRU5xcr2SgLu_9KcIsPLSKapIeXdAc7sH9xEQ K2qasBy0w_JP4dieCZbLJFbLmWoKTNVxQxUBGQMyEK7jFoZUf5RWQQ82YrT5 Inb5gLYnIE0MtxfBt9VQKUn3CdS2ImkO.yBcD0zY53QQuDix1J5tFlU5SExU dxUqIJ8TApVvysgpOI5mgubmn4hxg4l2yLX75NryrUANkQ7NW8ENQMLVyEqe cupxsfWLwHUHpZTV3FmwufnYl_j2TStxjpnCL9UuGA74pc8dBPnFN7EHcQnE 468z5hOucCn_9PZ1GcQYh_TCuAIZIfLQR9E4lFQ0ohAv4rPFOpwWFrMvQK0x vNdOJhm3k4DPGhFou9tx3K__3xSDt2FMhdc38QwjpNGZDc9sXZ7ALdLbYHbY RK3ZNkwVCPL_5OhLW_VR05xcdFKBMfXHOe5HgZB3cLtl9ilKsP8PKoripBa6 WxmZdk0R.uAglNY2XQG6YEbeUEBFyJOj2Hh0CE9lnzL3NuJJwzs2jpdFffHS BnoTPd0OfHoj4bZ.wBAkUunyL80MfBG7C99Sxt8iwNRjda.eUwV7uZvZDnrS kYhvxF76W4xMLcWX9EYBr105l6013nAE4Rz60t9aZgfh43EHIL_BAsKem8ls Y9yc6vQS1uX7_ZSGUq6d_Vg9E04OmawhzZznWXPSBXBdPeRnqZdguUHcLXVx 9QpedzGS4bJLQdtbh01pAZpfCEoid7a9skBQ47XMOl52VDKssW_cFadyp_ju eJBSKWf8zdr9YG_n8qxIXzS3iGCdjSDemWqe1iYXm5wcGGK9FUeiNkNli9NJ gSACDn_xSs33lga2hBLR5XmAsODkr01kHpJisZIshe4KvFZo4nV3XrGzMYCd U7M3MLXcsR7yp30OexoAz2VaI0flPNUZ9w_7SHehs1DZWf5kgn5zFDr2l6jT YQWvOcn12k.zFjO2pamQ2pMLquMa1GcNqSvB9A5L3QV1Xcr7bc9GfC23yS72 wba67iw2XlXHihIywg6tJQB3aWx7IiQT.893QOKqUN4soF8my5SrDKbm.b7q B6wAfp9B6UcRRT9O2mp8MrIzz.XxbwmzMiHVjkxk7grTQys5hu0ay46uLnEa uF_1BVMakqBtxIgiQA.JNyAe1o9ZSe8a8XANkbcUt98arRBQuaQ6K1V198OL DuXNIEMshrykk_hem8OSMTSpAUNvsBYwg7ohzCmGyW5mwa4zvlUapgpzd62f bWaS_GNBiBAz8iKw_t09_2eh2TCzrQMh_cYA1vAh3LiRRHLMng1s4fcsE6m7 qDbxB2e05_5_7k1VDNcnn.vg4dO_udCu3e.4seUk7dePrYs1fldo_RZMVHgF 9MIHOYvbR8Rj.8knTwjG2VPXrTtTkgJ_s.ctgpnqzXwcrOyEdIbLfQBgC8k- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f54.google.com) (209.85.213.54) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:11:05 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f54.google.com with SMTP id t8so65711844vke.3 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 04:11:04 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=9TQPsCtuTzzacOsriDSn6YvlzQgle9uo4or+LuVxtMI=; b=f+kRJrGMMQe1NKgRZAHe21uVo9oGePwiRhj762/6gzOxzRsnQ/d6nUG3dBo62VFPjM Z70IL3gE7vdzevYs0+DI9AJEPG+Jfp31yhH7xLar9Bn3jAZrpYig1TVrZD6LQmeZaO54 wW7J3PTfyNUBibiACDcXMaSHVVJay91mBO0N/tCf7rH7M6n1Bg7/d+6ubWvVu/jzy9WC PXiLFG9f8zFjjpRPGY49m0lKyWydWlR1H3Ua5+jecBho55a2P5NO0J2Yy2B1kiapUDAl oWxCaj221/bZIi9V0ntjfPYLckdjaasWA3M/UA5DGMfhBJIyRdX4+1dnQRm6cP3HuEdb +Kfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLT+ok5LlKzn+LnMtQga0pQZtDCTeBYwHPUGo/bG2lJp5mZSJk9eIpbBI6/Ke+sZmakqW/VHp9Zyks2ZA== X-Received: by 10.31.12.197 with SMTP id 188mr9572470vkm.121.1485000664218; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 04:11:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 04:11:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:11:03 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11442556150534054699a902 Subject: Re: [linguo] Heroeno X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=X4qPDO8zEo7PpnkNkM_YRIRD4UcyRgpvLBvxZwuZr8_Ubkj7jzGenQ X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a11442556150534054699a902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable La exempli quin tu prizentis (a qui on povus adjuntar *muslino* e mem *flor= ino*) sendubite pruvas ke la heroinala homonimeso-timo esas exajerata e sen= fundamenta, e ke **heroino* esas klare preferinda. Nu, la "problemo" esas f= acile remediebla, nam, segun semblo, **heroeno* ne ja oficaleskis. Pro quo= tu dicas ke *pordo* e *plado* esas =C2=ABtre kritikita=C2=BB? Me ne memora= s lektir irga kritiko kontre tala formi, sive en Espo, sive en Ido... *pas= ero* restez! Ica vorto apene esas konfliktiva. Ordinare on ya parolas pri p= asanti (homi quin on vidas pasar en la nuna instanto), ne pri pas-eri (homi= qui kustumale pasas)... 2017-01-20 23:54 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin= gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Nu,= til nun Esperantujo uzas =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB, mem se lu teorie konfliktas = kun > =C2=ABhero'ino=C2=BB. > > Vorti tal quala =C2=ABkarabino=C2=BB, =C2= =ABrosmarino=C2=BB =C2=ABserpentino=C2=BB, e =C2=ABproteino=C2=BB ofras > s= imila homonimeso... > > Tamen ni konsiderez la risko di konflikti. Me ipsa = nultempe experiencis > konflikto inter la Franca =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2= =BB (homino) e =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (drogo). > > Me probas trovar = kazi di konflikto... > > *orhara heroino di nordala legendi* > *la quaza ar= meo regnis la frontierala zono ... ed uzis lu anke por > exportacar kokaino= e heroino a Usa* > (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/) > > Ka, pro tala pav= oro pri konflikti e homonimi, on devas necese deformar un > plusa vorto, *h= eroeno, quale la tre kritikita =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB? > > K= ad on anke devas reformar nia linguo, e remplasigar la vorto =C2=ABpasero= =C2=BB, > qua adoptesis ante la sufixo -er-? > > Me opinionas ke no. > > = > --001a11442556150534054699a902 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --f403045eadda21d0d805469e9e6f-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4909 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 13549 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 18:08:57 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m15.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 18:08:57 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 15701 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 18:08:57 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 18:08:57 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: ha1vJdwWLDucrBz7ycGUqNi75VXVedooUFsmKZLDw..V.jMD a_AJeISJJW6KHFwTsy9EqHBQ_INB1cDeJHAhD3ak76Dj3Zl8j88JHgUdp8jb 2MwtBUFFqr34GBn7KF_5pc4qhh.qlH.t8HZWaFxMjbTSH8yK83R8m4xzhir4 VXECS7Rs3wzsOLzAHr3JK2p9D5Hq3JmTnx2jPLsNof0fLq.7OH9QwaW0sVH4 3cjxXnlZX6dyIzHzeRYxygjAnXYwF9xnBrYpJxFSzYhVg49aM22qEPJ9anlc 50xsgsmchVLtJtZpx1k4ZzXtcN1WtajGT.ygtqxYQ2eCGcW_9sOr_ccekOP1 r_XevWh_.59hM8mLA3AxS14kLfrGQpHRT8qZQg0mNgkYJ5m2O5kxFEdH4QVt X8_el6K2nhzzNzGNAkjLc8tnbT4YsNxkVP7MNi4kfwDV00izkVbAjb18j3zK ImG_Ww53ltftHP_nKWkO7GRcUj7mevo7ZkLRXfRPQ6oT3742kt2vj_KFSr1_ lZ7A4HQblCigIqEsEsNxCZu.5r9TnDj.SE4I7w0ptgTYfJPVijwZI5XD7HQb RH2eOthXSEuby08HO_ataIPmJxQDWcgP11D_GMJzngm9zfymxNoNpfognXbl 9RLh3jXz.Z4gWawQ1fE7nqUqf5pVSY6HcgOVbAihQ.c6B_ylUVXmA1FoPnlk 3y3ipcegaf5no4BXmm9_Di_k20udwns9zkMWUddftbcjdoDjfGE0z6AtXazB qnpxoTFDSZUzNdmBwkjoh6LwbvjErI2DrA3VqPZGrCSKIsgUJRfIWS5mpVEW F08dnD2w_pqQ6CQbj0BhfVZqysTebNKlHuWFou_L91hNK8az4qDEtKzGFf_c gdg.rD8ufRiszN42Wi9oBXS6TQBX69V4NrJo4cdJMqrL2OlEPRpmusUq6Udp 3Fvj8mcBnQohV1wgd5SUplSmlVT6TOoEhyLuhdzQ0ESkF5z_2qLVkOejMchR vASDMAocogF2GXGB6ZzdwOyjFvLb8F9XWkPosQW75OgYxBJGszKYnTA2m8Xo FeKL56Fw2pdLPJy.PinLdg4lsdIP1iuohPBhpS4ONlDHLLYbBYuWY57.juPB xPUcZIqugcgGb1Nhw5sVt8BchgO9rVijt67G_zzIMONYsVwlGJzIrtabpAXf fLDJZP.NGwvVAlXpWOZg3YummaqU4lW8ievf6QlnpzxoYcYOQxwlOm1v1f2d eNwocEW5UngHx4NEKLfm_wfVCO6DP1Y27HiMbYz3oYZ4GIAsX9YgyM9fkHQh 9kqBntJlBKnu0o8rSFbgcGz.nGD67w5x8CG4mAVRmUVuv1UrGfq6ct00GgSa ap_.U2lMsmH9g97icyST9MwEOCU5Fx3cP3OZi3m0FkXADy1rRhwwhWa6_8y8 TOh7d6jSmq65x.rbRavRsFZ23bpBF81aduRKae2WtGl3QS2fyePrIIhbGfrf 5eiSDSVRBWDBumqLiJOBGTE5_8V1zRGqlmQcF7i20bDx.Jn_ZtTsLfFX.WRb v_2gl.NOauGDjU.cz2SPV_.dljX90w-- Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f50.google.com) (74.125.82.50) by mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 18:08:53 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f50.google.com with SMTP id r126so79015181wmr.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:08:52 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=rTL3MF4Gd48WdT3biiKmjjqRceQDg9NserBlIetJqDE=; b=nFTfoeoXwTp9qxOG0FXnuQx6FQv3yFDqmS/P05NER30zQx/XQbJv1WqkaOmTGwFFjz dNSQnoP9goVk1jnL5o4MeMNvXIK0Kfwy6DfwSGNrkhp8gceBq6Qtp2BNk/8ZUATfJjFY gOAZQKHNo+3Z4QWv8DTmgfTpNyt/T0JueDa+6O6oUKrwyQfAfTDpDCGYFgw88UIoIKgw TAYZld/e236Ngj+0KoWjpYe/+QrKpoyblQ3H9GYtlgq0UBj9HIItqnKYhc2s3ilOw8Ir rfi/cSlSPo8Yf9xpxmGrTN5ggHpriVsAUJPJCPGZavcKJBeVI1p6kP11lWg+/ObFWN58 V1XA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIxuV6gAOrU44cIBfb3awsWdvFDew0wumOCPl5BbW3QgNLQfB7CN9Te+l7YnhhrRVI1PfULkWkPUKubxQ== X-Received: by 10.28.216.14 with SMTP id p14mr7337311wmg.56.1485022131759; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:08:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:08:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:08:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11469ee6a5b41305469ea81f Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIFJlOiDCq0lkb2xpbmd1b8K7?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11469ee6a5b41305469ea81f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable De pos kande =C2=ABIdolingu/o=C2=BB esas oficala sinonimo di =C2=ABId/o=C2= =BB? Me nultempe uzez ta vorto, nam =C2=ABIdolingu/isto=C2=BB konfliktas k= un =C2=ABIdo/lingu/isto=C2=BB. Segun artiklo quan me trovis en Progreso, se= mblas ke on refuzis =C2=ABInterlinguo=C2=BB pro la sama motivo (interlingu/= isto ed inter/lingu/isto)... Exemple, Jespersen esis Idolinguisto, ma me n= e esas Idolinguisto. On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 6:50 AM, qualevistandas@yahoo= .es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > No. Nu, on y= a povas, ma ne darfas. La linguo Ido, altre dicite Idolinguo, > havas du pr= opra nomi: Ido ed Idolinguo. Do, "Idolinguo", tal qual, esas > propra nomo,= qua nule invitas krear formi qual Gagarinkosmonauto, > Jespersenlinguisto,= edc. > > (Partaka) > > > --001a11469ee6a5b41305469ea81f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
De pos kande =C2=ABIdolingu/o=C2=BB esas oficala sinonimo = di =C2=ABId/o=C2=BB?

Me nultempe uzez ta vorto, nam =C2= =ABIdolingu/isto=C2=BB konfliktas kun =C2=ABIdo/lingu/isto=C2=BB. Segun art= iklo quan me trovis en Progreso, semblas ke on refuzis =C2=ABInterlinguo=C2= =BB pro la sama motivo (interlingu/isto ed inter/lingu/isto)...
<= br>
Exemple, Jespersen esis Idolinguisto, ma me ne esas Idolingui= sto.

O= n Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 6:50 AM, = qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogrou= ps.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0

No. Nu, = on ya povas, ma ne darfas. La linguo Ido, altre dicite Idolinguo, havas du = propra nomi: Ido ed Idolinguo. Do, "Idolinguo", tal qual, esas pr= opra nomo, qua nule invitas krear formi qual Gagarinkosmonauto, Jespersenli= nguisto, edc.=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka)=C2=A0

<= /div>

--001a11469ee6a5b41305469ea81f-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4910 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 820 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 18:10:52 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 18:10:52 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 23209 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 18:10:52 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 18:10:52 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: OobuKXEWLDtmrXt4WRbNZY.NoPVwWK02L_8P35dDBR340wP2 Fx3vHLc5Ywkfka.rrdZB.Mj1DPD1mipNhp873lht5KjpW7w_NlnB1vHbEVBQ PgIiFKa._tg2oZYsKS4ihLZHvrjlPPLERxjpKqDjmhXk4XmhY.U9MMaV_dNF uKF7fiQbrLfCvB4WwV6v71WE3GehoZqS4ISGAJv.cdJEe1pOaRAh9ow43tpF q1UmcNLLRlqbqnhlzHOJJIvgr1Dc3F8QT7yLc2DbnCx7QTQLyf2yUc2sNx0E 6GmE10nlYPMqWwV5r9g8xOvYIfmH8XWi7lP6RBqlA4Wusj3hJlH6XuuTsVSx KY9lESAPZB2PuJ_HN6kCCxJE2q1rDVp.tV1nh4pCHr9SR.91k.dkgM5cjMNM fkpf2mxenImTaaLjglpZk0vQDhD9jw4leGvsueaBiWVyY4uL15_9CZRg8qcC calrIJNW4lTXU.OEaeVd1TpKTHR4VgPeIQoX0.vhUitmGoTt3a9xMFMXUVbc O4pz5674kpVQ.xel.C.e5nb3pGQ4Bm8yomkETWiOuH7ZA.UUCYZt_Pf2rfk4 FmGtPZUOP1O8rZ3eavL2ayz3BpL5Ot2xD7roUwXqJ3ay_z80tAqwL_.JI5hI Ge00riZI8LbQSzvk.CszgPCIxUREeGII3Lr4CJnKF7K5HFtJvO96vi_uRxNh dqSnDo4PHHRK4tTpevp9jvchxZK6sZoYuMsZxoiuBX8D.xnOwKRrNm5FtlHs 82hT5DAvJ2wRVqy_BDRssi2TL3yAlY8yWSMR9udT92QSd.aXepd.rMxdxwoH bUNgofGAF1VlzKVhyrNlnnk5Zr0UFtDGVggEBW9msedF2w3_ufyBgw7SGfJN tqr2Io2qKopTnOnASylWB.98Lsf1cmurcn.5e6tSGhpyWt0naXnMinMD5K8F Po47.J13.UJJ_loJqiwL_e_SRR_pfBzsLJ_rN3aTXiofkHIERoByWOKW0sdb Ja68uOWBqSJlEJt2P2YnIe.sOuzg7wBbuEyjrAGndVspX_eXFyEruV8JQxQ8 eX46Uljl9JXQ9ilxD0ji_lxN8do_KJl4Ga1we3MX_XEAVdKjRqoBciGDz19t TAC97FNIVGOEr._VZn5hcKS5eTg6eco5ymMujM5llw1vovGq Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f49.google.com) (74.125.82.49) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 18:10:52 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f49.google.com with SMTP id c85so78821938wmi.1 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:10:51 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=JVIPSLuS8ZgAPLa3tdCj5Ag8+gHCucFBN2kLT4GiEbg=; b=qX6TCh3SFb2S0ioDWZ+TG1fWAtIQTqeMJqKChhupWgoZd60cEEljhQYX+yuJJH1J5Z p6/CW1qprQB6QKzIkKM7CL4+HrfiON0XeB5Gw8PaPoTVRW+Xu94fzrQkb6ipfYIZT4c4 LBOYm+cpkzu7N9QhVIFHO6KboP+q8KLtA0lcAMrBWGm5/XFsFLtoP7eakkES7LW3tf/L H6KVpu0kp9IQUMFnQiqDS+p7Agp935ISlGADRcMyXYW30VoVlPmaiYottw94NCBcRLDA NcwDF5be9Pv1Y/Rl7f5iBmDPfYMFyaBlTPjj9njL5n1Q82u2l97EKIkTB0Q3oQk8Qow4 rxXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJL7dJxZXk75Ax7NDGL47/Fjia+q59MwVtIb5Oi9IRjHgkg6OlgbJj1pHw3MBw38cAuecgYOIFbO25YtQ== X-Received: by 10.223.173.183 with SMTP id w52mr20101129wrc.164.1485021922165; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:05:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:05:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:05:21 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045d585e278d7f05469e9c51 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?wqtyaWRpa3VsYcK7?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045d585e278d7f05469e9c51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quo esas la difero inter =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB e =C2=ABridinda=C2=BB? --f403045d585e278d7f05469e9c51 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quo esas la difero inter =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB e =C2=ABridi= nda=C2=BB?
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Nur du remarki: 1) Tu skribis: =C2=ABEn la dicionario di P= esch (edituro di 1928) me trovis la yena defini:=C2=BB. Nu, sube trovesas i= majo pri imprimita Franca-lingua defini, certe ne ek la dicionario da Pesh.= .. 2) Pos tanta konsideri ed analizi, tu tamen ne propozis dicionariala de= fino plu moderna e kompleta, ja tote pronta. La lektero ipsa mustas "konstr= uktar" ol ek la diversa peci prizentita. En la Portugalana, la vorto *fich= a* (qua devenas de la Franca *fiche*) havas anke yena interesiva (ed utila)= senci: *1.* Disketo od altra-forma objekto metala, plastika, edc, quan kl= iento o vizitanto recevas che la vesto-gardeyo di teatro, cinemo od altra p= ublika loko, kande lu ibe depozas vesto od altra objekto personala, e quan = lu mustas retrodonar fine di la vizito por retrorecevar sua vesto od altra = objekto depozita. *2.* Disketo plastika, ordinare sam-formata kam monet-pe= co, quan la kliento di *supermerkato o *hipermerkato povas insertar, sive m= onet-peco, en la ranuro di kompro-chareto por ekpulsar, ek opozita ranuro, = metala langeto qua, ye la extremajo di metala kateno, ligas la chareto a se= rio de plusa chareti, e qua esas retrorecevebla, fine di la kompro, per ins= ertar la libera langeto di altra chareto en la rispektiva ranuro dil uzita = chareto. (Nu, defini certe pluboniginda, ma forsan on komprenas la ideo) = 2017-01-21 2:54 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguo= listo] : > > > Kara samideani, > > Semblas es= ar generala miskompreno pri la vorto =C2=ABficho=C2=BB. Kande me serchas > = en dicionarii Franca-Ido, me trovas ke =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas sive =C2=ABfi= cho=C2=BB, sive > =C2=ABstifto=C2=BB. Or =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas vorto qua, = en la Franca, havas plu kam du senci. > > Mem plu stranja esis ke la Wikivo= rtaro tradukas =C2=ABficho=C2=BB ad Angla kom =C2=AB(in > games) counter, t= oken, check=C2=BB. Or, ka to signifikas, ke =C2=ABtoken=C2=BB > restriktesa= s a ludi? > > Nu, segun Pesch, yes. > > Me do skribis l'artiklo yena, qua k= larigas la senco originala di =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, > quale me interpretas lu:= > > https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/pri-ficho/ > > Me deziras, ke on veri= fikez ka la rezultajo semblas justa. > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Phil= ippe > > > --001a114e503a57e9b305469eb4d5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tre interes= iva! Nur du remarki:

1) Tu skribis: =C2=ABEn la dicionario di Pesch = (edituro di 1928) me trovis la yena defini:=C2=BB. Nu, sube trovesas imajo = pri imprimita Franca-lingua defini, certe ne ek la dicionario da Pesh...
2) Pos tanta kon= sideri ed analizi, tu tamen ne propozis dicionariala defino plu moderna e k= ompleta, ja tote pronta. La lektero ipsa mustas "konstruktar" ol = ek la diversa peci prizentita.

En la Portugalana, la vorto ficha (qua devenas de l= a Franca fiche) havas anke yena interesiva (ed utila) senci:
1. Disketo od altra-forma objekto metala, plastika, edc, quan klien= to o vizitanto recevas che la vesto-gardeyo di teatro, cinemo od altra publ= ika loko, kande lu ibe depozas vesto od altra objekto personala, e quan lu = mustas retrodonar fine di la vizito por retrorecevar sua vesto od altra obj= ekto depozita.

<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">2. Disketo plastika= , ordinare sam-formata kam monet-peco, quan la kliento di *supermerkato o *= hipermerkato povas insertar, sive monet-peco, en la ranuro di kompro-charet= o por ekpulsar, ek opozita ranuro, metala langeto qua, ye la extremajo di m= etala kateno, ligas la chareto a serio de plusa chareti, e qua esas retrore= cevebla, fine di la kompro, per insertar la libera langeto di altra chareto= en la rispektiva ranuro dil uzita chareto.

(Nu, defini certe pluboniginda, ma forsan on komprenas la ideo) =C2=A0 <= br>


2017-01-21 2:54 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= ;linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Kara sami= deani,

Semblas esar generala miskompreno pri la vorto = =C2=ABficho=C2=BB. Kande me serchas en dicionarii Franca-Ido, me trovas ke = =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas sive =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, sive =C2=ABstifto=C2=BB. Or = =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas vorto qua, en la Franca, havas plu kam du senci.
Mem plu stranja esis ke la Wikivortaro tradukas =C2=ABficho= =C2=BB ad Angla kom =C2=AB(in games) counter, token, check=C2=BB. Or, ka to= signifikas, ke =C2=ABtoken=C2=BB restriktesas a ludi?

=
Nu, segun Pesch, yes.

Me do skribis l'artik= lo yena, qua klarigas la senco originala di =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, quale me int= erpretas lu:


Me deziras, ke on verifik= ez ka la rezultajo semblas justa.

Kun kordiala sal= uti,
Gilles-Philippe

=

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Fichi qui uzesas por notar la punt= i en ludo.* =E2=86=92 *ludmarko*. *Fichi e plaki qui uzesas kom riskajo en = ruleto. Ficho di telefonilo. Fichi numerizita,* uzata en banki, e.c. *Ficho= di kontrolo:* ficho qua uzesas por kontrolar la prezenteso di persono (gar= disto, soldato, laboristo=E2=80=A6) en lua laboreyo. (specale) *Ficho di p= rezenteso:* peco livrata a singla membri prezenta di konsilantaro, di asemb= litaro, qua simbolizas honorarii o rimborso di spenso. (per extenso) Ta hon= orarii. *Fichi di prezenteso atribuata a la membri di konsilantaro di admin= istro di societo anonima.* On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo= Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote= : > > > Tre interesiva! Nur du remarki: > > 1) Tu skribis: =C2=ABEn la dic= ionario di Pesch (edituro di 1928) me trovis la > yena defini:=C2=BB. Nu, s= ube trovesas imajo pri imprimita Franca-lingua defini, > certe ne ek la dic= ionario da Pesh... > > 2) Pos tanta konsideri ed analizi, tu tamen ne propo= zis dicionariala > defino plu moderna e kompleta, ja tote pronta. La lekter= o ipsa mustas > "konstruktar" ol ek la diversa peci prizentita. > > En la P= ortugalana, la vorto *ficha* (qua devenas de la Franca *fiche*) > havas ank= e yena interesiva (ed utila) senci: > > *1.* Disketo od altra-forma objekto= metala, plastika, edc, quan kliento o > vizitanto recevas che la vesto-gar= deyo di teatro, cinemo od altra publika > loko, kande lu ibe depozas vesto = od altra objekto personala, e quan lu > mustas retrodonar fine di la vizito= por retrorecevar sua vesto od altra > objekto depozita. > > *2.* Disketo p= lastika, ordinare sam-formata kam monet-peco, quan la > kliento di *superme= rkato o *hipermerkato povas insertar, sive monet-peco, > en la ranuro di ko= mpro-chareto por ekpulsar, ek opozita ranuro, metala > langeto qua, ye la e= xtremajo di metala kateno, ligas la chareto a serio de > plusa chareti, e q= ua esas retrorecevebla, fine di la kompro, per insertar > la libera langeto= di altra chareto en la rispektiva ranuro dil uzita > chareto. > > (Nu, def= ini certe pluboniginda, ma forsan on komprenas la ideo) > > > 2017-01-21 2:= 54 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kara samideani, >> >> Semblas esar gen= erala miskompreno pri la vorto =C2=ABficho=C2=BB. Kande me serchas >> en di= cionarii Franca-Ido, me trovas ke =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas sive =C2=ABficho= =C2=BB, sive >> =C2=ABstifto=C2=BB. Or =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas vorto qua, en= la Franca, havas plu kam du senci. >> >> Mem plu stranja esis ke la Wikivo= rtaro tradukas =C2=ABficho=C2=BB ad Angla kom =C2=AB(in >> games) counter, = token, check=C2=BB. Or, ka to signifikas, ke =C2=ABtoken=C2=BB >> restrikte= sas a ludi? >> >> Nu, segun Pesch, yes. >> >> Me do skribis l'artiklo yena,= qua klarigas la senco originala di =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, >> quale me interpre= tas lu: >> >> https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/pri-ficho/ >> >> Me deziras,= ke on verifikez ka la rezultajo semblas justa. >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, = >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> > > --f403045d585e14a33805469ec793 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mea defino kompleta esas la lasta, qua kontenas omna senci= prizentita posibla di =C2=ABjeton=C2=BB (segun Le Petit Robert):

<= /div>
Peco plata e= d ordinare ronda, olim uzata por kalkular, qua reprezentas, nuntempe, ula v= aloro o numero di ordino. Ficho de ivoro, de metalo. Fichi qui uz= esas por notar la punti en ludo. =E2=86=92 ludmarko. Fichi e = plaki qui uzesas kom riskajo en ruleto. Ficho di telefonilo. Fichi numerizi= ta, uzata en banki, e.c. Ficho di kontrolo: ficho qua uzesas por= kontrolar la prezenteso di persono (gardisto, soldato, laboristo=E2=80=A6)= en lua laboreyo.
(specale) Ficho di prezenteso: peco livrata a singla membri prezent= a di konsilantaro, di asemblitaro, qua simbolizas honorarii o rimborso di s= penso. (per extenso) Ta honorarii. Fichi di prezenteso atribuata = a la membri di konsilantaro di administro di societo anonima.


On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 1:12 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Tre interesiva! Nur du= remarki:

1) Tu skribis: =C2=ABEn la dicionario di Pesch (edituro di= 1928) me trovis la yena defini:=C2=BB. Nu, sube trovesas imajo pri imprimi= ta Franca-lingua defini, certe ne ek la dicionario da Pesh...

2) Pos tanta konsideri ed a= nalizi, tu tamen ne propozis dicionariala defino plu moderna e kompleta, ja= tote pronta. La lektero ipsa mustas "konstruktar" ol ek la diver= sa peci prizentita.

En la Portugalana, la vorto ficha (qua devenas de la Franca fiche) havas anke yena interesiva (ed utila) senci:

1. = Disketo od altra-forma objekto metala, plastika, edc, quan kliento o vizita= nto recevas che la vesto-gardeyo di teatro, cinemo od altra publika loko, k= ande lu ibe depozas vesto od altra objekto personala, e quan lu mustas retr= odonar fine di la vizito por retrorecevar sua vesto od altra objekto depozi= ta.

2. Disketo plastika, ordinare= sam-formata kam monet-peco, quan la kliento di *supermerkato o *hipermerka= to povas insertar, sive monet-peco, en la ranuro di kompro-chareto por ekpu= lsar, ek opozita ranuro, metala langeto qua, ye la extremajo di metala kate= no, ligas la chareto a serio de plusa chareti, e qua esas retrorecevebla, f= ine di la kompro, per insertar la libera langeto di altra chareto en la ris= pektiva ranuro dil uzita chareto.

(Nu, de= fini certe pluboniginda, ma forsan on komprenas la ideo) =C2=A0
=


2017-01-21 2:54 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara samideani,

Semblas es= ar generala miskompreno pri la vorto =C2=ABficho=C2=BB. Kande me serchas en= dicionarii Franca-Ido, me trovas ke =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas sive =C2=ABfich= o=C2=BB, sive =C2=ABstifto=C2=BB. Or =C2=ABfiche=C2=BB esas vorto qua, en l= a Franca, havas plu kam du senci.

Mem plu stranja esis k= e la Wikivortaro tradukas =C2=ABficho=C2=BB ad Angla kom =C2=AB(in games) c= ounter, token, check=C2=BB. Or, ka to signifikas, ke =C2=ABtoken=C2=BB rest= riktesas a ludi?

Nu, segun Pesch, yes.
Me do skribis l'artiklo yena, qua klarigas la senco origina= la di =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, quale me interpretas lu:

Me deziras, ke on verifikez ka la rezultajo semblas justa.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


La exempli quin tu pr= izentis (a qui on povus adjuntar muslino e mem florino) sendu= bite pruvas ke la heroinala homonimeso-timo esas exajerata e senfundamenta,= e ke *heroino esas klare preferinda. Nu, la "problemo" es= as facile remediebla, nam, segun semblo, *heroeno ne ja oficaleskis.=

Pro quo tu di= cas ke pordo e plado esas =C2=ABtre kritikita=C2=BB? Me ne me= moras lektir irga kritiko kontre tala formi, sive en Espo, sive en Ido...
pasero r= estez! Ica vorto apene esas konfliktiva. Ordinare on ya parolas pri pasanti= (homi quin on vidas pasar en la nuna instanto), ne pri pas-eri (homi qui k= ustumale pasas)...


2017-01-20 23:54 GMT+00:00 Gil= les-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:<= br>
=C2=A0
<= p>

Nu, til nun Esperantujo uzas =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB, me= m se lu teorie konfliktas kun =C2=ABhero'ino=C2=BB.

= Vorti tal quala =C2=ABkarabino=C2=BB, =C2=ABrosmarino=C2=BB =C2=ABserpentin= o=C2=BB, e =C2=ABproteino=C2=BB ofras simila homonimeso...

Tamen ni konsiderez la risko di konflikti. Me ipsa nultempe experi= encis konflikto inter la Franca =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (homino) e = =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (drogo).

Me probas tro= var kazi di konflikto...

orhara heroino = di nordala legendi
la quaza armeo regnis la frontierala zo= no ... ed uzis lu anke por exportacar kokaino e heroino a Usa

Ka, pro tala pavoro pri konflikti e homonimi, on devas necese deformar un = plusa vorto, *heroeno, quale la tre kritikita =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABpla= do=C2=BB?

Kad on anke devas reformar nia linguo, e= remplasigar la vorto =C2=ABpasero=C2=BB, qua adoptesis ante la sufixo -er-= ?

Me opinionas ke no.

<= /div>

<= /div> --001a11442556150534054699a902-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4901 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 23451 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 12:28:28 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 12:28:28 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 24637 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 12:28:28 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.120) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 12:28:28 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.177 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 6WFcMIYWLDuDeVhFIOj78B39iDujsuGsoAyAsObqB.RTRY2E r3jhIT1OhwDbSE7TSQa1ZCF_gcnB4TylUWpi8_oy9RvLCPCxZQ3rtIsXl9z3 vQ3vB.B0liN5PRdR7eknOauuAohEKJEoJuLHT7pHmGqtMg33jYz9o25PDJ7. vLf08rlpaWoZTx4BY5t2t.YCWu7EhEPLisGxG1XNVDPKBuE_9On55bN5vyDc Kg7iOYfVLPuvInFrvWwyJ9LKty_kLfIK5cORJTyznCINSA2ALHHIw98PkVzR vURIQ7GTVGKkLNKYJ3iV1L2GqCHxwzWSyfrO7omK0c8jGYYE6JQy.SWsbQFA LtKpOn.IsGdye5udCvrRwfrhw6.llg2QLo0EfAYTdNIzdIYTCBGpIy0EPJQw 1p3JUj43POVH0T55CjUilsefeCduEvShENQgKGcrBO6ve7FIE8LS1G9aIprJ sB.1YE.b89rWRZLQvGzkALo6IXniJ89tqTu1asVMrnYK7ecsTjjlekPAc6cU JnwA5fAhNxuFf9z3Z5qABKgNZJf01daBPVHqUdKBINo25QBJAwc9KGGJoPpf EAymnhSEXzwZGOPeqvJil.dQ7vsK6PzMlVbw3duCJ_ScZ4pBZ9TiLr19JBMz 2krbjLDkVwDMpI433D3U6QJNi8qQ7fYcjz6el.rOoiBF2GskYS55se1pXXSe yEodh1JxIon.k084mT6s.IoZIxFtnmlUe3ZQpWpvSN4Ky4PAn8PA_ootPSAZ 7hq3pdxzvZxhq0RZVUrgPc2_mz9V7y_A3dSKZhUUR_wHVMhgPZXv8kEbjm8E fyVrpcC5IE5O3oZjXNXSxVopUE9wNOwvVUjjydr4q5KVikN3zkWCUpvLWRka el52xxw.rBFdAg7wWSkjoOGzx0sf8AeNpUGvLC44DnSJ6F_N1YuYJzEIfbuj N5HDB_jjSOZSFCmbw6gAJHenJMbDCTkd_mbzc0bqEoE0osJ7h6xdea9hSGp_ Kl2SbGqnBSZy0j9h0gRsOFsBsHChdPme2vnVoRPivyvOx5QkJJljJY_xRTOy owqMWsJogmp5SlcdCUcfO3_HgPqzo3Gv26SXykYgUHjP9Z79Py2UoezBj8aK JpI9RtZR3Bski1nqShPj8NjDFBylARIHc0bFNzk55bpO1QHVLpmuSxj0ZiW5 hXbIvjx6w7CSbjfRa3wrIBnAwpktFUzNFPDD1p4fHN8LkCKAdXRNCzl3ZPfn _dIpPqtZQ98IIQyQ2XEY78bB6zCOFJWanGrPA32gN3PHdnDYnA-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f177.google.com) (209.85.217.177) by mta1005.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:28:28 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 96so81262430uaq.3 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 04:28:28 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=AX/EkmVpboaFMuF1saMfzEWA0AcOzb1pK7t8k5VzqU4=; b=qJqigzB22m7QaGrHHmR8tOMI8ljXxiHNNNB+t7DB3UfjGSWoDtZsFdDbZxZ29RgC0b lgXn/fccEkQe7vU5i8wKl35uPZv5Cj2qkrrOC0xCn8cGuf8YRKbjSOzgl0W3LXMguJmN yE6XmirSJ+zwV3h9NUc0/DH0IycO0BO+gOFd8+aWpYCWgfSaGhHbsJ1D9PxV3bnLvMk0 v2HI0u0yT4FjPIqKDPg+0rEhjaUGk0Zpf5POkxGQYx6beVW5bKwSDFZGFmNw9SQb4Kfa jXexUqqg7Qubw6HWVjfX+RbsR30EuZpYUqHv/YgKXPp9xuQXgSVjJv6QbywACFtxskp7 D3JQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLL/TtGAu7zKapwAizTtBgd7FN9oG7D5VgTc45VfpXdWzxfqlYXfeWpeeY8NLPG46iNlgJYDpS2ZvsDkQ== X-Received: by 10.159.35.52 with SMTP id 49mr8822530uae.113.1485001707720; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 04:28:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 04:28:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:28:26 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d15ee479c15054699e7c6 Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=4z6rKhTgnfuRQunwuToZgOr3RQeU9p1jVbK2EwmI6KxPYsgNn-Wsmw X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a113d15ee479c15054699e7c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Meajudike, on mustas "etizar" radiko nur kande la sufixizo esas klare distingiva, exemple: *forko* (*pitchfork*) / *forketo* (*tablefork*), *dormar* (*to sleep*) / *dormetar* (*to doze*, *to nap*), *ridar* (*to laugh*) / *ridetar* (*to smile*). Kande la distingiveso di la sufixizo ne esas evidenta o decidigiva, on darfas uzar la simpla radiko. En la koncernata kazo, la sufixizo ne semblas esar klare distingiva o decidigiva, nam paper-planki ordinare esas tre intersimila segun grandeso e mem aspekto. 2017-01-20 12:54 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Paper-planko semblas a me sencoza propozo e bona kompromiso. > > > Nur neklara en mea mento, esas kande en Ido on MUSTAS uzar -et kun radiko, > e kande on darfas uzar la simpla radiko. La radiko plank- signifikas anke > angla "plank, floorboard" ec., multe plu granda e pezoza kam "clipboard". > --001a113d15ee479c15054699e7c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Meajudike, on mustas "etiz= ar" radiko nur kande la sufixizo esas klare distingiva, exemple: fo= rko (pitchfork) / forketo (tablefork), dormar (to sleep) / dormetar (to doze, to nap), = ridar (to laugh) / ridetar (to smile). Kande la di= stingiveso di la sufixizo ne esas evidenta o decidigiva, on darfas uzar la = simpla radiko.=C2=A0 En la koncernata kazo, la sufixizo ne semblas esar kla= re distingiva o decidigiva, nam paper-planki ordinare esas tre intersimila = segun grandeso e mem aspekto.

2017-01-20 12:54 GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] = <linguo= listo@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_7213344641717588748ygrp-msg">

Paper-planko semblas a= me sencoza propozo e bona kompromiso.


Nur neklara en m= ea mento, esas kande en Ido on MUSTAS uzar -et kun radiko, e kande on darfa= s uzar la simpla radiko.=C2=A0 La radiko plank- signifikas anke angla "= ;plank, floorboard" ec., multe plu granda e pezoza kam "clipboard= ".



<= /div>
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Me pluse pripensis lo. Semblas a me ke paper- kuntextizas planko,= tale ke -et ne esas necesa. Pro to on trovas en Dyer anke, shako-planko, = damo-planko. La planko-grandeso (e dimensioni, importante!) esas klara pro= la kuntexto. Do me nun aceptas paper-planko, e ni povas konservar ol. K= erno kompleta! ________________________________ From: linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Neves gneves64= @gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 21 January 201= 7 12:28 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEdit= or Meajudike, on mustas "etizar" radiko nur kande la sufixizo esas klare= distingiva, exemple: forko (pitchfork) / forketo (tablefork), dormar (to s= leep) / dormetar (to doze, to nap), ridar (to laugh) / ridetar (to smile). = Kande la distingiveso di la sufixizo ne esas evidenta o decidigiva, on darf= as uzar la simpla radiko. En la koncernata kazo, la sufixizo ne semblas es= ar klare distingiva o decidigiva, nam paper-planki ordinare esas tre inters= imila segun grandeso e mem aspekto. --_000_DB5PR03MB1397B13D90134E9047EB0C877A4700DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To esas bona argume= nto, ma on povus debatar pri la distingiveso di -et en ca kazo.  Me pl= use pripensis lo.  Semblas a me ke paper- kuntextizas planko, tale ke = -et ne esas necesa.  Pro to on trovvas en Dyer anke, shako-planko, damo= -planko.  La planko-grandeso (e dimensioni, importante!) esas klara p= ro la kuntexto.


Do me nun aceptas paper-planko, e ni po= vas konservar ol.  Kerno kompleta!


From: linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Neves= gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]
<= b>Sent: 21 January 2017 12:28
To: Linguolisto
Subject= : Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
 
=


= Meajudik= e, on mustas "etizar" radiko nur kande la sufixizo esas klare dis= tingiva, exemple: forko (pitchfork) / forketo (tabl= efork), dormar (to sleep) / dormetar (to doze, to nap), ridar (to laugh) / ridetar (to = smile). Kande la distingiveso di la sufixizo ne esas evidenta o decidig= iva, on darfas uzar la simpla radiko.  En la koncernata kazo, la sufix= izo ne semblas esar klare distingiva o decidigiva, nam paper-planki ordinar= e esas tre intersimila segun grandeso e mem aspekto. =
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James, semblas a me ke vua expl= iko (=C2=ABpaper- kuntextizas planko, tale ke -et ne e= sas necesa=C2=BB) esas multe plu bona kam la mea!
=

2017-01-21 13:38 = GMT+00:00 James Chandler idojc@hotmail= .com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

To esas bona argumento, ma on povus debatar pri la distingiveso di -e= t en ca kazo.=C2=A0 Me pluse pripensis lo.=C2=A0 Semblas a me ke paper- kun= textizas planko, tale ke -et ne esas necesa.=C2=A0 Pro to on trovas en Dyer= anke, shako-planko, damo-planko.=C2=A0 La planko-grandeso (e dimensioni, = importante!) esas klara pro la kuntexto.


Do me nun acep= tas paper-planko, e ni povas konservar ol.=C2=A0 Kerno kompleta!


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Me supozas ke ol esas kompozita= da Robert Carnaghan.

2017-01-21 7:07 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philipp= e Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Quo esas la origino di ta vortaro?


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Sen vua, on mustus skribar tab= lo-fork(et)o, vice forketo. Sen mea, on mustus skribar shako-planketo. Y= en la nuna stando. Nur "MediaWiki extension" bezonas plusa labor(eg)o: [c= id:1e96e4d5-a1e4-4402-9ef0-dc146ff5df31] ________________________________ = From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf o= f Gon=E7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 21 January 2017 13:46 To: Linguolisto Subject: Re: [linguo] Fra= zi bezonata por VisualEditor James, semblas a me ke vua expliko (=ABpape= r- kuntextizas planko, tale ke -et ne esas necesa=BB) esas multe plu bona k= am la mea! --_000_DB5PR03MB1397C0D7141D28920126C7499A4700DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Me opinionas ke amb= a argumenti esas necesa.  Sen vua, on mustus skribar tablo-fork(et)o, = vice forketo.  Sen mea, on mustus skribar shako-planketo.

=

Yen la nuna stando. Nur "MediaWiki extension" bezona= s plusa labor(eg)o:




From: linguolisto@yaho= ogroups.com on behalf of Gon=E7alo Neve= s gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]
= Sent: 21 January 2017 13:46
To: Linguolisto
Subjec= t: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor
 


James, = semblas a me ke vua expliko (=ABpaper- kuntextizas planko, ta= le ke -et ne esas necesa=BB) esas multe plu bona kam la mea!<= /span>
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Me konfesas ke, kande me skribis mea antea mesa= jo pri ica temo, me tote ne memoris ke uldie, en 2008, me traktis ica vorto= ed inluzis ol en SIL. Ica verko kontenas cirkume 800 kap-vorti o lexikogra= fiala unaji. Regretinde me ne merkis omna vorti e nun, pos non yari, me ne = memoras li omna. Ica vorto ne esas propozita da me. Me simple trovis ol en = du fonti, quin lore (ed ankore nun) me judikas kom fidinda (la Germana-Ido = lexiko da Ferdinand M=C3=B6ller, imprimita, e la retala Ido-Angla lexiko da= Robert Carnaghan) e me nur provizis ol per defino ed AGHIR-tradukuri. Me n= e plus memoras ube me cherpis la informo ke la radiko esas =C2=ABaprobita i= nter 2001 e 2003=C2=BB. Me supozas ke Robert ipsa informis me pri to, ma ho= die, lektinte tua mesajo, me serchis en mea *komputero mea korespondado kun= Robert e trovis nula mesajo (sive mea, sive lua) kambiita inter ni, quanka= m me memoras ed esas certa ke en 2008, ante asumar dum tre kurta tempo la o= fico di linguala sekretario, me kambiis pasable multa mesaji kun Robert. Me= tote ne savas quo eventis e pro quo ta mesaji efacesis de mea komputero. M= e uzas Gmail ja de sat longe, ed ordinare ol esas fidinda e ne efacas mesaj= i sen ke la uzanto imperas lo. Me regretas lo ed esperas ke Robert konservi= s kopiuri di nia korespondado. Tamen la inkluzeso di **heroeno* en SIL tot= e ne impedas duma opiniono-chanjo da me. Kordiale, Gon=C3=A7alo 2017-01-= 21 14:15 GMT+00:00 tiberiorevas@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>: > > > Stranja! > Evidente, en la furio odiala en qua on esfor= cas deklarar ke, praktike, > preske omna vorti di Ido ne esas oficala, tu d= istraktite inkluzis mem vorto > qua esas en tua SIL, e di qua tu ipsa asert= as l'oficaligo inter 2001 e 2003! > > heroen/o [Kem.] Narkotigiva substanco= derivita de morfino, uzata > anke kom analgeziivo (C21H23NO5) [A heroin | = F h=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne | G > Heroin | H hero=C3=ADna | I eroina | R =D0=B3=D0= =B5=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B8=D0=BD | E heroino]. REM. > Radiko aprobita inter 2001= e 2003. C@RNAGHAN, M=C3=96LLER. > > Me konstatis lua prezenteso en mea dic= ionario ma ne en Pesch, do ol esas > nova vorto. Me kontrolis ke ol mankas = en De Cock, ma esas en la dicionario > interretala da Carnaghan, e do ja of= icala ante 2010 (ka ne? O ka nun mem > Robert Carnaghan ne esas fidinda?). = Nu, pro to me komprenis ke ol ne > apartenas a mea listi de nova vorti, e d= o me konvinkesis (eroroze) ke por > mea dicionario me cherpis ol direte de = la dicionario da Carnaghan, e me > adjuntis la defino. Tamen me nulaloke en= mea kladi sucesis trovar la > defino. Me ruptis mea kapo por komprenar ube= me skribis ol. Fine me, > neexpektinte, trovis ol en tua SIL kom vorto ja = oficala: lore me deskovris > ke la defino ne esas mea, ma tua! Me ne povis = imaginar ke tu renegis tua > ipsa vorti! > > Kordiale*, (me ne memoras ka "= kordiale" esas oficala) > Tiberio > > --001a11487a0ecd345b05469e3483 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Tiberio, da= nko pro tua reakto e, precipue, pro memorigar da me la inkluzeso di *her= oeno en SIL. Me konfesas ke, kande me skribis mea antea mesajo pri ica = temo, me tote ne memoris ke uldie, en 2008, me traktis ica vorto ed inluzis= ol en SIL. Ica verko kontenas cirkume 800 kap-vorti o lexikografiala unaji= . Regretinde me ne merkis omna vorti e nun, pos non yari, me ne memoras li = omna. Ica vorto ne esas propozita da me. Me simple trovis ol en du fonti, q= uin lore (ed ankore nun) me judikas kom fidinda (la Germana-Ido lexiko da F= erdinand M=C3=B6ller, imprimita, e la retala Ido-Angla lexiko da Robert Car= naghan) e me nur provizis ol per defino ed AGHIR-tradukuri. Me ne plus memo= ras ube me cherpis la informo ke la radiko esas =C2=ABaprobita inter 2001 e= 2003=C2=BB. Me supozas ke Robert ipsa informis me pri to, ma hodie, lektin= te tua mesajo, me serchis en mea *komputero mea korespondado kun Robert e t= rovis nula mesajo (sive mea, sive lua) kambiita inter ni, quankam me memora= s ed esas certa ke en 2008, ante asumar dum tre kurta tempo la ofico di lin= guala sekretario, me kambiis pasable multa mesaji kun Robert. Me tote ne sa= vas quo eventis e pro quo ta mesaji efacesis de mea komputero. Me uzas Gmai= l ja de sat longe, ed ordinare ol esas fidinda e ne efacas mesaji sen ke la= uzanto imperas lo. Me regretas lo ed esperas ke Robert konservis kopiuri d= i nia korespondado.

Tamen la inkluzeso di *heroeno en SIL tote ne impedas duma opi= niono-chanjo da me.

Kordiale,


2017-01-21 14:15 GMT+00:00 tiberiorevas@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Stranja!
= Evidente, en la furio odiala en qua on esforcas deklarar ke, praktike, pre= ske omna vorti di Ido ne esas oficala, tu distraktite inkluzis mem vorto qu= a esas en tua SIL, e di qua tu ipsa asertas l'oficaligo inter 2001 e 20= 03!

heroen/o [Kem.] Narkotigiva substanco derivita de morfino, uza= ta
anke kom analgeziivo (C21H23NO5) [A heroin | F h=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne | = G
Heroin | H hero=C3=ADna | I eroina | R =D0=B3=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B8= =D0=BD | E heroino]. REM.
Radiko aprobita inter 2001 e 2003. C@RNAGHA= N, M=C3=96LLER.

Me konstatis lua prezenteso en mea dicionario ma n= e en Pesch, do ol esas nova vorto. Me kontrolis ke ol mankas en De Cock, ma= esas en la dicionario interretala da Carnaghan, e do ja oficala ante 2010 = (ka ne? O ka nun mem Robert Carnaghan ne esas fidinda?). Nu, pro to me komp= renis ke ol ne apartenas a mea listi de nova vorti, e do me konvinkesis (er= oroze) ke por mea dicionario me cherpis ol direte de la dicionario da Carna= ghan, e me adjuntis la defino. Tamen me nulaloke en mea kladi sucesis trova= r la defino. Me ruptis mea kapo por komprenar ube me skribis ol. Fine me, n= eexpektinte, trovis ol en tua SIL kom vorto ja oficala: lore me deskovris k= e la defino ne esas mea, ma tua! Me ne povis imaginar ke tu renegis tua ips= a vorti!

Kordiale*, (me ne memoras ka "kordiale" esas of= icala)
Tiberio


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Bone. Tamen, ka lu cherpis la defini de dicionario?
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Sat, Jan 21, 20= 17 at 8:48 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gne= ves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=

--f403045d585e14a33805469ec793-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4913 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 15037 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 18:18:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 18:18:46 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 21299 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 18:18:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 18:18:46 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.49 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 06YxwLcWLDsFCCIPxBaaqjoaKZShUoJL7ZnqNgVVzgTUOXta CvXVMJdTHTYjsNCKtJnrqCCzT8csIIAyY8ZvRUDMdf0.TXmq29lALW_9aHoY CGwwh.WguVofJ8oKt2MXODR3A7OxonBPqNpQRXtLK6DrcbmNAmQL10j61pU6 Leyv.AC33_e49w6jbOOz681B5sLDpZ4pGWoUru_Hy2tPJS.9liC5waSPxhuT lddB2fiNrCSc1fWL6bHbx3shChlLwp43icIU_l5mzv3pmiI3lHiGAO1qJREa B.mVCihFHIDQZ33K.3fiABdp_lLlTlqzGUs7sC0T_rYO1fXUrZaqYfbYoR1. rjov6hbpJPPOra0TfMYcbVDHOHwGcvZBmHUIioT1KKpSa6h.WsPJXIhtln8b RcxdzwsTwqO3gB8YQinjNIoBpxrKts5mR4PP..rZbrbCcWBGtuSa.hn1oQrH _qvZXH_Ixhlrvcz.kndToguK3.nYGCKwppT9d9WyzBgEtz9TW1Rw4kXo_wNn VWpcvFJe6Yv4zRgux1lDTMPzzmgAQPpLUiR_6U6XFLgp0VPmIjfsMozhYJ6l cgKJeRTftmKlYY7aKub7UD2SnHaTgXNGP8.UJ.vCfEVsodjQl6NkzjfT1QCC Ms337Cyj3S5UoeSOQ6jlU1q20ymT0h7EaGe6aHpqPG7UkdENTMfHeZwiueqM UUhtBJgn.eo8XhLli8djwR.WTafhGKSEm2isaoPYyJRTxhCHZnymt8sH3yHW OO3x0OjwjdmLCeloE7Rz6u8B9Dl2gzNuZZcPGBxAb5jI9KiCu4XbGrQ1yjbM vn4rxfNGXa4O6ZthEB_C9yVRLnfCKu4CTZybU4HBhxap4rlyPTgghYn1Amoh TdE8_JM2haTNaR6h0w9veIbxAs3_Qew4Uq2O2gin2Ove9FOH_IV41c9B0tqS A6EFAozNu16TS8jLoAUzxnbDTL3YvPz2hY888cva.jzgbof9r13c3RFcDY0k IPhvRU6GIXZA8M4sRNIMQZUfCHOV_zZ4YLLwfnj8baLwAE2PXhN6HLqa4usm lfJtunzKlEg4_fdXB.dVJOqKcL8ApNx2yg0CVy_BPTdY4b6rZfyvZXon5aj7 94s908yi39GZu9Y6xuVPh3Rp6GSWIy.gLCaqtxpe6hW2zSH45DM_NxXWK9Ic 1CGvdbynRBmNV0sJgnCvCe4VPpIjsQJGtlSZHfSfHyGEYCuX8KdDPELaX6k1 8dL.YXZ6Dg57alhqxrumo8pR3649aTS5t1K3dRTeyAfwsD2LUtXbQJ_lBqFq Qn_Sjieaqu0ngD1pEkieWJ5RMY9xQF8Rggj68y10K1pE3srp2QUHC8bR.5_C E3aROeJPUWCBYFVu5hiW3SdUBKDLzbsw8pi4XM2Qdf6KHBBJ9spJmKyDCDtF jh8PTYXS.S.sUO7EaFAr2eD0VAn_NOG2cXahPGggSaSP7YbgvXMcuAdkMLMm U_oRlLWkVG6dvOf3dPRKaraBc7Cd5mGNCva2lfO8cqulCt64H7f0mLgoznJV GW9hKZntNo4mAdtqG1Yp6a7cyU5TWY1_JRJQN_HGKL7ZFT0cr0E0JNl8s8JL 05wnrq88ekakUcl.SgwLewBuVmHMkqoQng-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f49.google.com) (209.85.213.49) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 18:18:46 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f49.google.com with SMTP id t8so68866684vke.3 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:18:46 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=Ls2R2UYIda2/hVdO0fjKvU8al9ACgkMZbgEUv1nvYMU=; b=OsTbCtVqgxczTc7lGohoEHBd3vo29oZ/AjhkE1z3vB6tKjNlFjaOOQZ7vHeDzB55G7 ZBXWvgQVcCZtbTsmaS1u+TrXeGjFyUeGrxNJVA9MVe5HKQTNsniNsgVkQwaVUPqFBlNi La+TFpWEIP3o7y04safGrZ37ujvtpxLTp8PVGA9FdnJjWTpRNoSkJ5zmVcaJBVSDGcg9 0WkLMQClc39UfwS/GMRUar8xx4cvyOFirdP8x61lIgJinuYkb3MCL2NSePyHnB47nNJ7 Cf0qXG+wgEcyodmzoe4q4znpFKdgTL4VPhcF7x9wmLCsGaSHiS+S7UlzJ6+/bH+Qguvm deUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKKV7UOoPNzL65ytUCQqqBgVMRIzTij1VoVrlgtcTWIplDFWejSjQ/cpKOigVc/GDsT6kk5W3SodpbgWw== X-Received: by 10.31.114.133 with SMTP id n127mr10292884vkc.129.1485022725927; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:18:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:18:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 18:18:45 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1497b4100c4805469ecc24 Subject: Re: [linguo] Origino X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=h6mc0cL5y4kiGKFnfujcrkyp9Ywm94D8iBEizHfnS6Mce34jc7QBwQ X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c1497b4100c4805469ecc24 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me ne savas. 2017-01-21 18:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gma= il.com [linguolisto] : > > > Bone. Tamen, ka = lu cherpis la defini de dicionario? > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Go= n=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [linguolisto] wrote: > >> >> >> Me supozas ke ol esas kompozita da Robert Carnagha= n. >> >> 2017-01-21 7:07 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Quo esas la= origino di ta vortaro? >>> >>> http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm >>> >>> >>= > > --94eb2c1497b4100c4805469ecc24 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me ne savas.

2017-= 01-21 18:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
=
= =C2=A0

Bone. Tamen, ka lu che= rpis la defini de dicionario?

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [= linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<= br>
=
=C2=A0
=
=

Me supozas ke ol = esas kompozita da Robert Carnaghan.

2017-01-21 7:07 GMT+= 00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
=C2=A0

Quo esas la origino di ta= vortaro?

<= /p>

=

<= /div>

=
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Hug= ues propozas adoptar la du verbi: *venerar* (profunda respekto > kun afecio= no) e *reverar* (profunda respekto kun nuanco di timo). > Konseque, on devu= s chanjar *venerdio* a *venusdio*, e adoptar *veneriar* por > l'ago sexuala= (subst. *venerio*), de quo venus: *veneriala* plezuro, > maladeso, e c. (N= .B. *veneracar*, propozita III, 328, esis jus adoptata: > p. 69, decido 328= ). > > To konfirmas la existo di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB. > Nu, ad uli= =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB! > > --94eb2c1497b41521c005469edb5c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --94eb2c1497b41521c005469edb5c-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4915 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 12184 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 18:25:58 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 18:25:58 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 30556 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 18:25:58 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 18:25:58 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.181 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 4JY5e_IWLDvUh2Odwgnm.B3Pkf0k5gn96T8XxalHEfZjp1dH D6sigArCR5zmsen2PD23G1bb8iRFRdFppmgU934KmYbpB9btRVxibbVGbcT0 B3kgzEFIJTaMPj3cn4Ytmaq5y5Rwc5WPIjOoU2e7mTa8fQFM892A0InGSvZ2 Uam2hWSjwiCMu1hublCh4GrOwi66KHe7HshJIqBD_E2muLPeKItgT7D35l95 lkXqTJVuR1432ivZown4xom0crSi5VuyLlCkf3AeSP6YeZ1q6kyERgEUNwgp j2KZ1RoBQW_mLwWr0Wzht0w47w.45XbjuMUTRNLy81DW.xAOEbcIybkjaWqh fTvNfDbaYKLoZuo4jF7xYsC1QsHj4ZZjZ726BtQ6VA29eWOfLIpIMhFpqbhi OQ32Bk3H18TZX0ypNgSZeKpya1_pyZyMRhFRsvmwonLKY6FCPBVvSjkn_Mxr _FPx8t50bxozc1a1mZ8sGV1KRhXCv5FJB4DWJa9oIsr7Wp.fOzGM4ZoTySL5 jRhDJyez0PIuY26jnpMF8x5.FSgsXHfQ1XPQuQhyZNmG2klEyAfHaGxmvApw Z9GAuXHpJkUezeo4zghdbYT2IpobMK56m.jsbwpz44VcI4pC_wjlIVXU8_Ku RrFaHR9g4E1GayxVobQKZA4ZzAkLZJEZu4hj1I28lYe75LhtUdpPWiU5Rlfm W0bv262RkTgBOlNfxkDv1vgt_EArLzNqiXattwvbMs1pTb.uwmV5rePJSRx7 8IvHlDo.JjrTkajbZB8V8502ib7ZeFLdjRju9E.23rgAGfh9EqyNROcLUZCb 1ZtfZCTV4n3EpqGQOYXKw29aQ.BTKZq0y4t_2Ld9exJ46ICdrqB9mjFBHmF3 YDZJa_D8QRPtbFFVFKy0foEEEZhHIcsYGoJMIoeBsWcgwpLLGHgjuboX9i9d qljHJ30CAM.I7xr43TBb_wkfik5LENdoEn.q3LJZP208vPV98oh.cDwAHeMH aFBzGAAR3VQWoqj.AysjLcs_1WEI2L4PCITlPzc.Ws7Tr52kKlCMeftqQKnt ZeA.3jmgQrfFmlhhQIUi6HUeFzTdlp0wXy4QM3OXBo22WW_aRKenbqBmBYNj yqnnih5eWHb4XXdJCWr6ZD33ehm4OO_pg7J6IK.nLKViZBn.Pdpr5FR.pFB7 0uUxFNu2Ga._8WtM5euisp3.iDAJyrjLOf3M.fUqXvZ.mv8zFPMilEjOjlNi WRCEgDv9aW8wDq03QaFzH_IF.1EdiiJw7TjBGIhZvK.6vH0LL4US65voiJYa 2Ke4rXfOI9s0olvWQii.Dc4qRSea75D9dwrEXoKfKtR8WrWIgwsMu84LNUds Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f181.google.com) (209.85.217.181) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 18:25:58 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f181.google.com with SMTP id i68so84743571uad.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:25:57 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=2o1CLrfaBJb1KHckjEcHzNc63id+CRW6K/VVfmFFQyw=; b=gNImGzdJ1ptv2zsZCXEzwCMHtJJ9VMTbHywGrV1PrCoPSU3eSFSHs/SWN4l106jOwa x9AIXmxIhERrPmgGrJdJ84JogGbaEyOgSQv+L69/M2oqh+oTOvFqcY2JTrYylEAENM17 SPatmJboBNGrn7DZvIpPD9Pz/4QVawn9WAHdBbSEjkpoiclGJ7lWWi7oOiwDzxVmt71H 7As1GrrqXFfoJ41haNdScdfnc+Oxa36qf1Ua+PnNSizWh1F6gRmqkgA61PYmdNn3bMWr SPminUNCnppsE1InWZuY5nG8x+xLEty0zPHTNAJSQkzjTggr6IuSCZ8o5HRMDQ8LbfND U1lQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJFX37jxYEvOedvxDAP/QVNvI7yQEX86ZD18LxNnibskOGEUDY4rVvFV63R236N8KyIi0rQ06egDaeSIg== X-Received: by 10.159.35.52 with SMTP id 49mr9338841uae.113.1485023157646; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:25:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 10:25:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 18:25:57 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d15eecb7f0305469ee575 Subject: Re: [linguo] Defino X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=eIFhAYoKbZmCqF3uThpy4hlJE1hSSiXwYe2t6OURGADGl_phbJbPdA X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a113d15eecb7f0305469ee575 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pri Pesch me memoras lektir en plura fonti. Me serchos por tu, ma ne quik. = 2017-01-21 0:08 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [ling= uolisto] : > > > *En Esperanto nulu nomas la = kovrilo di libro kom "plata=C4=B5o". Omni nomas ol > "kovrilo".* > Fi al PI= V! http://vortaro.net/#plata%C4%B5o > > La PIV ne esas bona fonto pri uzo E= sperantista... lu kontenas vorti tal > quala =C2=ABliva=C2=BB e =C2=ABmova= =C2=BB. > Me esez plu prudenta en la futuro. > > Ube me povas trovar inform= i pri Marcel Pesch? Vikipedio nur dicas ke lu > esis =C2=ABanarkiisto=C2=BB= . > > https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espido > > Rapide klikante per sua muso= , > Gilles-Philippe > > --001a113d15eecb7f0305469ee575 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tamen on adoptis ne *venerar= ma veneracar...

2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philipp= e Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_3850445877277087451ygrp-text">
Progreso IV, 103:

Venerar, reverar.
S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas adoptar la du verbi: venerar=C2= =A0(profunda respekto kun afeciono) e reverar=C2=A0(profunda respekt= o kun nuanco di timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar venerdio=C2=A0a venusdio, e adoptar veneriar=C2=A0por l'ago sexuala (subst.= venerio), de quo venus: veneriala=C2=A0plezuro, maladeso, e = c. (N.B. veneracar, propozita III, 328, esis jus adoptata: p. 69, de= cido 328).

To konfirmas la existo di la verbo =C2= =ABvenerar=C2=BB.
Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas = =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB!

=

<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Pri Pesch me memoras lekti= r en plura fonti. Me serchos por tu, ma ne quik.
=C2=A0

2017-01-21 0:08 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

E= n Esperanto nulu nomas la kovrilo di libro kom "plata=C4=B5o". Om= ni nomas ol "kovrilo".
Fi al PIV!=C2=A0http://vortaro.net/#= plata%C4%B5o

La PIV ne esas bona fonto pri uzo E= sperantista... lu kontenas vorti tal quala =C2=ABliva=C2=BB e =C2=ABmova=C2= =BB.
Me esez plu prudenta en la futuro.

= Ube me povas trovar informi pri Marcel Pesch? Vikipedio nur dicas ke lu esi= s =C2=ABanarkiisto=C2=BB.


Rapide klikante per sua muso,
Gilles-Philippe


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Vu citas lexiko qua donas du tradukuri por "komutilo": switch, commutator.
Quale me ja probis explikar, semble vane, la du kozi ne esas sama. Motoro normale havas amba: swichilo e komutilo.
 
Me ne savas ka la Franca linguo konfundas la koncepti swichar e komutar, ma ol ne esas klara a me. La Germana vorto por swichilo semblas esar Schalter, e por komutilo semblas esar "Kommutator" o "Stromwender".
 
La vorto "swichar" adoptesis en 1926: mikra pazo por plubonigo di Ido.
 
En la Raporto da Roze (1937), pri decidi dil Akademio Interimala, ye pagino 61:
swich-ar, mix. [transitiva e ne-transitiva] D schalten, E to switch, F commuter [falio hike indikar la senco] ... en-swichar, ek-swichar, swich-ilo, swich-ili, en-swichili, ek-swichili: D ein- ausschalten; Schalter, Ein- Ausschalter. Uzo prefixe di "en" ed "ek" semblas esar de la Germana.
 
Robert C.
 
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Fri, 20 Jan 2017 03:51:00 -0500: 
En la Franca, «switch» = «commutateur».




commutateur komut.il.o, inter-rupt.il.o



Segun la Petit Robert, interrupteur:


Nom masculin (1857) Dispositif permettant d'interrompre ou de rétablir le passage du courant électrique dans un circuit.
© 2016 Dictionnaires Le Robert - Le Petit Robert de la langue française


Nu! Ta vorto e ta koncepto existas de pos 1857, Ido certe ja havis vorti por expresar la ideo di «switch», «switch off», e.c.


Fakte, yen la defini di la English-International Dictionary di 1908!




to switch off (current), komutar


komut-ar, to break off, shut off (current); -ilo, switch, commutator. [DEFIS]


Nu, en 1908! La nura problemo semblas esar, ke mankis vorto por "switch on"... Nu, me ne mem savas ka "switch on" existis lore.


2017-01-20 0:54 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:



Ma certe vu preferas «swichilo», ka sustenesas nur da la Angla.


2017-01-19 9:30 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
 
Me trovas nula defini por ica vorti en la lexiki da Dyer. Lua tradukuro por "komutilo" esas "commutator". Angla dicionario dicas ke ico esas "a device that maintains the direction of flow of electric current in a generator or reverses it in an electric motor".

Por "switch" (elektrala), Dyer donas (verbo) "komutar", e (substantivo) "cirkuito-klozilo, inter-rupt-ilo, komut-ilo". Lu ne povis donar plu apta tradukuro ante adopto di "swichar". Se "komutilo" esas "commutator" ol ne esas "switch" quale trovebla exemple ye muro di chambro.

Dyer ne povis donar apta od irga vorti por diversa kozi (quale abaniko, acetono, anorako, aspirino, atolo), nam apta vorti ne existis en Ido til pose.

Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 12:52:56 -0500:

 Nu, me nultempe skribis «startilo» nek «haligilo»! Me skribis «interruptilo» e «komutilo», quale definita che Dyer...

2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"...'

Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata por startar ed anke por haltigar. Ne suficas dicar "startilo" o "haltigilo". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti povas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por startar o haltigar ol.

Quale me ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo diferas de swichilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala aparato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne por startar o haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado.

Mem se ula linguo o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun swichilo, tala neklareso esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona.

Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:31:26 -0500:

 Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento") kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "komutar" e "interruptar". Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Franca "commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar".

La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transitiva.

Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"...

2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Kara Gilles-Philippe,

Vu skribis:
Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.

Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"): startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento.

La defino di "acendar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) produktar flami, mem nur mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: "to inflame (the passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro.

Extensar la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swichilo nur komencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar fairo.

On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar la problemo.

Kordiale,
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500:

 Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" ed "extingar".
"Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!"

La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne?
"Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono."

Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me konsideras la situeso tote absurda.

La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo).
Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch.

Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"?

Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"?
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500:
 Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?

2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo di "komutar".

Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe





From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4917 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 28462 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 19:14:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 19:14:26 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 18311 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 19:14:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.163) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 19:14:26 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: zrG1ukYWLDtqQaQRN7m_YIfCuvzox.EFlMnphG852KgbyOAG jIe6f_WvZ.9IgEyZjP66LD9qgnQ8Im2XvJKtgqPbYd3iUlXuyVOiq0o8Z6dJ Q8k9SlaPBWpqzte54o7lNWfBGzpQ1VDUiTa4MpdAzYoWCWArkX.CZRTXWK5J ECMxuiAjMNSBGAkrtD3isgGI9Qii.Hs5KZuK0NJYQJpS24QyKlLMv_GSulT7 JSLnJf40v4b9OaQQf3FjhrANu_6pbGQpuoplGsqVavhHxc6yBHoH9YokmBwi WOKrF_7Ry.yg1yFQ4eTNCyw8g8BPwc67o5Mf.BH.lVZetpQwvT2IGFTZ1BzJ k_J4w3eAGEjHn6plIMxiJxV8PdvzwLKriolljE3GKdQL4kxs_ugQfiNzH0Z0 XzRDa.ypfkRNonGlZuIE3wBjvuqMNjSSPIDpsjeD6ZROKwQE6fYBdmKWBmiz fYupyFVGmCQeiOv.8hZETWiNx2UEw.Q67Z7yzAI5nSSrqVH7CN3Wk.7cIBOf Xp3COBQ16r784s.X1NOMd0KKPvrM98Fw2Xy2p75lQOKFR.Q8KpLhpQnFBOij wYm_E8E3B26KiwxNv.KEsGPuXyOP36YrA2Y_OIoRX7JpmjQ6kDBiwXWWQfXP Y8pikVx_Gz7h7vKuQl8P80kiTtAhq3m5bku3vpv.XPi9H.68z41EGMEbh2ho s1OUK4JeRjJGygBed4Y6w8stgfxW8bHEZuN_i8nPJDetmPEnSM1O3lz5iEiu rOWXZ6CtQaG2VD8e5e63v0qsf58BUEGIAqBOo8RUCBZFBck.kjVQrxnJw42H 5LsyKFQ2bnHwHrTwfHLbYxprPwekBxEfA3dWe94B_K0kfLAvybKGXYV9DuDB EJM9YEheMX2xRXc3CGl39p4kurCC3eMLXVaMn__Y0CXSoPitCNTCIl5YeTkQ BYjMazV7LKn4oisZnDzW85Y2kLDAfJBUutJeYmeDcAvtcxwwf03Ugi6kpV4A XB36GkYsvdmBhlzgkdRr0hsVbo5lH3GjXXUDWLh_vSB8DA5Gg9DV4RjVSZwN 9lYx7fEICkeZ.pUlBEVCDPiHMt.OZjNMMlnaLguiRibTxnc.t6aJHtOkFZcI DPGGxJzvWU6CRjNcy8AjkLKgSoP2nZy0rMN7vNKWT9V_bMIuUOeOFgELsmf1 plYK2bxnHNo3PjMa52zNhixyFRLKHzX_dGT4b7_zQyKvAmGis6IDm7tjYGlx swMrYt87pPBNi2REG.XNmrqZ3Z5HiRn39N2.RvfxLMqvkCsNAhl7bMrfPSN6 lcodyrSrG7xzxtFZvn2KhWHTmnEcdEgL7ibGxtC1NIMje70BvSuQbsi5TL6z lQq77kCyWB3fKk5KPl_uHFgWWj.qLpFa_b8j27pTfX30i99_tyZmv0JC3W2K yvBACJAdn_lnd_gF3CahikejB.agzFnh4tf2mvEdMK09_yzVH6YcA_hucW7A Aja1D5yMPjK900cZzCqgEAzKifj8xrhgOM3IrxZrG4tDgDSJSUql795iA8wP 9K_VE8xoIMPU09tzcunxkjGbYBMr2pyNJ7tYSq2mXriPZmkIHt8pts3XQlxk TOeS7FdeejBHkA-- Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f44.google.com) (74.125.82.44) by mta1004.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 19:14:25 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f44.google.com with SMTP id f73so22524837wmf.1 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 11:14:25 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=+S7xkCczuEY4XIuBt1TiEyiWgBN1EHlqaPT5paAFxno=; b=YYvy1VdMAvGftwx0vK4rT9mJDTMbj6qouH9x2b5fmwbTa6/J/g5dLQDzYwnyYD5xrA g60bsyiPul3TN3+RFKR39d2Yp0TK/HCepTLD1BOwhoS0uhcm9KiIOkOd9zuS+jNj143m 6honOSrkkFK6eSEAoCc0cnOUUfqK32aSNCRURQiZ5vVRZjywq80ztLz6tS/4ojQML3Kq SjI8O6jiIaY89ptbTXEZ5aTBU7zGlm1iNgQp7NTXa8Y9kIUwQm6I8xJ1D4fUuwDx9khg cbdV4eboaSJvwsa63UkUP2meBwvQ6r7dbVyHOphoqVfOI6p7JYHot1/qzZj8nF4IU9ea M2ag== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLQnPzD4ZY7dfTBKMTgJCwe2Rt+mlP87n5WohXPFmg4OgXC3rdy9EC68yQDI/OMwccsG7zw+bIkVpsvZA== X-Received: by 10.223.139.93 with SMTP id v29mr16306791wra.5.1485026064352; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 11:14:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 19:14:13 +0000 Message-ID: To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045eadda0c4f1405469f936d Subject: Re: [linguo] -ismi ed -isti X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045eadda0c4f1405469f936d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes nam, quale skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis por =C2= =ABl'ago sexuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la *Dictionna= ire fran=C3=A7ais-international*. On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7al= o Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrot= e: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tamen on adoptis ne **venerar* ma *veneracar= *... > > > > 2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail= .com > [linguolisto] : > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > Progreso IV, 103: > > *Venerar, reverar.* > S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propoza= s adoptar la du verbi: *venerar* (profunda respekto > kun afeciono) e *reve= rar* (profunda respekto kun nuanco di timo). > Konseque, on devus chanjar *= venerdio* a *venusdio*, e adoptar *veneriar* por > l'ago sexuala (subst. *v= enerio*), de quo venus: *veneriala* plezuro, > maladeso, e c. (N.B. *venera= car*, propozita III, 328, esis jus adoptata: > p. 69, decido 328). > > To k= onfirmas la existo di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB. > Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvene= rdio=C2=BB ya signifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB! > > > > > > > > > > > > > = > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --f403045eadda0c4f1405469f936d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes nam, quale skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis po= r =C2=ABl'ago sexuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la <= i>Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international.=C2=A0
On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= wrote:





























=C2=A0


















Tamen on adoptis ne *venerar ma veneracar...



2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+= 00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= :





























=C2=A0





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Progreso IV, 10= 3:

Venerar, reverar.<= /b>
S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas adoptar la du = verbi: venerar=C2=A0(profunda respekto kun afeci= ono) e reverar=C2=A0(profunda respekto kun nuanc= o di timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar venerdio= =C2=A0a venusdio, e adoptar veneriar=C2=A0por l'ago sexuala (subst. v= enerio), de quo venus: veneriala=C2=A0plezur= o, maladeso, e c. (N.B. veneracar, propozita III= , 328, esis jus adoptata: p. 69, decido 328).

To konfirmas la exi= sto di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB.
Nu, ad u= li =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB!















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Nur du remarki: > > 1) Tu skribis: =C2=ABE= n la dicionario di Pesch (edituro di 1928) me trovis la > yena defini:=C2= =BB. Nu, sube trovesas imajo pri imprimita Franca-lingua defini, > certe ne= ek la dicionario da Pesh... > > 2) Pos tanta konsideri ed analizi, tu tame= n ne propozis dicionariala > defino plu moderna e kompleta, ja tote pronta.= La lektero ipsa mustas > "konstruktar" ol ek la diversa peci prizentita. >= > En la Portugalana, la vorto *ficha* (qua devenas de la Franca *fiche*) >= havas anke yena interesiva (ed utila) senci: > > *1.* Disketo od altra-for= ma objekto metala, plastika, edc, quan kliento o > vizitanto recevas che la= vesto-gardeyo di teatro, cinemo od altra publika > loko, kande lu ibe depo= zas vesto od altra objekto personala, e quan lu > mustas retrodonar fine di= la vizito por retrorecevar sua vesto od altra > objekto depozita. > > *2.*= Disketo plastika, ordinare sam-formata kam monet-peco, quan la > kliento d= i *supermerkato o *hipermerkato povas insertar, sive monet-peco, > en la ra= nuro di kompro-chareto por ekpulsar, ek opozita ranuro, metala > langeto qu= a, ye la extremajo di metala kateno, ligas la chareto a serio de > plusa ch= areti, e qua esas retrorecevebla, fine di la kompro, per insertar > la libe= ra langeto di altra chareto en la rispektiva ranuro dil uzita > chareto. > = > (Nu, defini certe pluboniginda, ma forsan on komprenas la ideo) > > > 201= 7-01-21 2:54 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguoli= sto] : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kara samid= eani, > > Semblas esar generala miskompreno pri la vorto =C2=ABficho=C2=BB.= Kande me serchas > en dicionarii Franca-Ido, me trovas ke =C2=ABfiche=C2= =BB esas sive =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, sive > =C2=ABstifto=C2=BB. Or =C2=ABfiche= =C2=BB esas vorto qua, en la Franca, havas plu kam du senci. > > Mem plu st= ranja esis ke la Wikivortaro tradukas =C2=ABficho=C2=BB ad Angla kom =C2=AB= (in > games) counter, token, check=C2=BB. Or, ka to signifikas, ke =C2=ABto= ken=C2=BB > restriktesas a ludi? > > Nu, segun Pesch, yes. > > Me do skribi= s l'artiklo yena, qua klarigas la senco originala di =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, > q= uale me interpretas lu: > > https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/pri-ficho/ > >= Me deziras, ke on verifikez ka la rezultajo semblas justa. > > Kun kordial= a saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --f403045d5b10c5ce5f05469fa18d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
[devenas la Franca]
On Sa= t, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:12 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:






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=C2=A0
<= br>

















Tre interesiva! Nur du remarki:

1) Tu skribis: =C2=ABEn la dicionario di Pesch (edituro di 1928) = me trovis la yena defini:=C2=BB. Nu, sube trovesas imajo pri imprimita Fran= ca-lingua defini, certe ne ek la dicionario da Pesh...

2) Pos ta= nta konsideri ed analizi, tu tamen ne propozis dicionariala defino plu mode= rna e kompleta, ja tote pronta. La lektero ipsa mustas "konstruktar&qu= ot; ol ek la diversa peci prizentita.

En la Portugalana, la vort= o ficha (qua devenas de la Franca fiche) havas anke yena interesiva (ed utila) senci:

1. Disket= o od altra-forma objekto metala, plastika, edc, quan kliento o vizitanto re= cevas che la vesto-gardeyo di teatro, cinemo od altra publika loko, kande lu ibe depozas vesto od altra = objekto personala, e quan lu mustas retrodonar fine di la vizito por retror= ecevar sua vesto od altra objekto depozita.

2. Disketo plastika, ordinare sam= -formata kam monet-peco, quan la klientoo di *supermerkato o *hipermerkato p= ovas insertar, sive monet-peco, en la ranuro di kompro-chareto por ekpulsar= , ek opozita ranuro, metala langeto qua, ye la extremajo di metala kateno, = ligas la chareto a serio de plusa chareti, e qua esas retrorecevebla, fine = di la kompro, per insertar la libera langeto di altra chareto en la rispekt= iva ranuro dil uzita chareto.

(Nu, defini certe pluboniginda, ma forsan on komprenas la ideo) =C2=A0

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2017-01-21 2:54 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe M= orin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
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=C2=A0


















Kara samideani,

Semblas esar generala miskompreno pri la vorto =C2=ABficho= =C2=BB. Kande me serchas en dicionarii Franca-Ido, me trovas ke =C2=ABfiche= =C2=BB esas sive =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, sive =C2=ABstifto=C2=BB. Or =C2=ABfiche= =C2=BB esas vorto qua, en la Franca, havas plu kam du senci.

Mem plu st= ranja esis ke la Wikivortaro tradukas =C2=ABficho=C2=BB ad Angla kom =C2=AB= (in games) counter, token, check=C2=BB. Or, ka to signifikas, ke =C2=ABtoke= n=C2=BB restriktesas a ludi?

Nu, segun Pesch, yes.

Me do skribis l'artiklo yena, qua klarigas la senco orig= inala di =C2=ABficho=C2=BB, quale me interpretas lu:

https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/pri-ficho/

Me deziras, ke on verifikez ka la rezultajo semblas ju= sta.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Ph= ilippe











































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Sat, 21 Jan 2017 11:47:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 11:47:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2017121183125.668268@D9B5MN3J> References: <2017121183125.668268@D9B5MN3J> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 14:47:17 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1148d536bc2d130546a00822 Subject: Re: [linguo] "swichar' e "komutar" X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1148d536bc2d130546a00822 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Forsan vu deziris skribar: =C2=ABMotoro havas amba: komutilo [switch] e ko= lektoro [commutator].=C2=BB O forsan me ne komprenis vua exemplo. Certe l= a =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB di Ido ne esas la sama kam la =C2=ABcommuter=C2=BB di= la Franca, tote quale =C2=ABpento=C2=BB ne esas la sama kam =C2=ABpente=C2= =BB. =C2=ABKomutar=C2=BB e =C2=ABpento=C2=BB esas plu preciza kam sua origi= ni. Li esas falsa amiki quan plura dicionarii facas erore. Sive to, sive..= . on chanjis komplete, tote, integrale, plene, la senco di =C2=ABkomutar=C2= =BB. Ma por to me bezonas pruvo. Nam en la sequanta dicionario, me trovas: = http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm *komut.ar * {tr} (*elek= .*) commuer [sic!], interrompre ( *math.*, *=C3=A9lectr.*) Ta dicionario = kontenas =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB, do me konjektas ke sive on konfuze modernigi= s tre olda dicionario, sive ta defino esas ankore valida *mem pos Dyer*. E= n la *Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international* (1908), on ne trovas la ver= bo =C2=ABcommuter=C2=BB. Tamen, on ja trovas =C2=AB*commutateur*=C2=BB (swi= tch), qua tradukesas per =C2=ABkomut-ilo=C2=BB, ed on trovas =C2=AB*interro= mpre* (*un courant =C3=A9lectrique*)=C2=BB (swich off an electric current),= qua tradukesas per =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB. Me trovas nula ambigueso en ta di= cionarii. On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 1:31 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [l= inguolisto] wrote: > > > Vu citas lexiko qua= donas du tradukuri por "komutilo": switch, commutator. > Quale me ja probi= s explikar, semble vane, la du kozi ne esas sama. Motoro > normale havas am= ba: swichilo e komutilo. > > Me ne savas ka la Franca linguo konfundas la k= oncepti swichar e komutar, > ma ol ne esas klara a me. La Germana vorto por= swichilo semblas esar > Schalter, e por komutilo semblas esar "Kommutator"= o "Stromwender". > > La vorto "swichar" adoptesis en 1926: mikra pazo por = plubonigo di Ido. > > En la Raporto da Roze (1937), pri decidi dil Akademio= Interimala, ye > pagino 61: > swich-ar, mix. [transitiva e ne-transitiva] = D schalten, E to switch, F > commuter [falio hike indikar la senco] ... en-= swichar, ek-swichar, > swich-ilo, swich-ili, en-swichili, ek-swichili: D ei= n- ausschalten; > Schalter, Ein- Ausschalter. Uzo prefixe di "en" ed "ek" s= emblas esar de la > Germana. > > Robert C. > > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gphm= orin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Fri, 20 Jan 2017 > 03:51:00 -0500: > En la F= ranca, =C2=ABswitch=C2=BB =3D =C2=ABcommutateur=C2=BB. > > > http://lavaleo= .tripod.com/francaisido-co.html > > > > *commutateur* komut.il.o, inter-rup= t.il.o > > > > Segun la Petit Robert,* interrupteur*: > > > *Nom masculin* = (1857) Dispositif permettant d'interrompre ou de r=C3=A9tablir > le passage= du courant =C3=A9lectrique dans un circuit. > =C2=A9 2016 Dictionnaires Le= Robert - Le Petit Robert de la langue fran=C3=A7aise > > > Nu! Ta vorto e = ta koncepto existas de pos* 1857*, Ido certe ja havis > vorti por expresar = la ideo di =C2=ABswitch=C2=BB, =C2=ABswitch off=C2=BB, e.c. > > > Fakte, ye= n la defini di la* English-International Dictionary* di 1908! > > > https:/= /archive.org/stream/englishinternati00beaurich#page/238/mode/2up > > https:= //archive.org/stream/internationalen00jespgoog#page/n124/mode/2up > > > > t= o* switch off* (*current*), komutar > > > *komut-ar,* to break off, shut of= f (*current*);* -ilo,* switch, > commutator. [DEFIS] > > > Nu, en 1908! La = nura problemo semblas esar, ke mankis vorto por "switch > on"... Nu, me ne = mem savas ka "switch on" existis lore. > > > 2017-01-20 0:54 GMT-05:00 Gill= es-Philippe Morin : > > http://www.websters1913.com/wor= ds/Interrupter > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/interruptor#Spanish > > h= ttps://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/interrupteur > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wi= ki/interruttore#Italian > > > > Ma certe vu preferas =C2=ABswichilo=C2=BB, = ka sustenesas nur da la Angla. > > > 2017-01-19 9:30 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' = ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > Me tro= vas nula defini por ica vorti en la lexiki da Dyer. Lua tradukuro > por "ko= mutilo" esas "commutator". Angla dicionario dicas ke ico esas "a > device t= hat maintains the direction of flow of electric current in a > generator or= reverses it in an electric motor". > > Por "switch" (elektrala), Dyer dona= s (verbo) "komutar", e (substantivo) > "cirkuito-klozilo, inter-rupt-ilo, k= omut-ilo". Lu ne povis donar plu apta > tradukuro ante adopto di "swichar".= Se "komutilo" esas "commutator" ol ne > esas "switch" quale trovebla exemp= le ye muro di chambro. > > Dyer ne povis donar apta od irga vorti por diver= sa kozi (quale abaniko, > acetono, anorako, aspirino, atolo), nam apta vort= i ne existis en Ido til > pose. > > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gph= morin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 > 12:52:56 -0500: > > Nu,= me nultempe skribis =C2=ABstartilo=C2=BB nek =C2=ABhaligilo=C2=BB! Me skri= bis > =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, quale definita che D= yer... > > 2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguol= isto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino = ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice > "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez= "startar" e "haltigar"...' > > Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata por s= tartar ed anke por haltigar. Ne > suficas dicar "startilo" o "haltigilo". P= luse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti > povas esar uzata por chanjar la voyo di el= ektro-fluo, ne nur simple por > startar o haltigar ol. > > Quale me ja menc= ionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo diferas > de swichilo. No= rmale homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala > aparato, dum ke komu= tilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne > por startar o halti= gar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado. > > Mem se ula linguo o lingu= i konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun > swichilo, tala neklareso = esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona. > > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philipp= e Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 > 18:31:26 -050= 0: > > Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "startar o haltigar kurent= o por > funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di ku= rento") > kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "ko= mutar" e > "interruptar". Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero int= er la > Franca "commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar= ". > > La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transitiva. > > Tamen, vua defino i= psa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "acendar" e > "extingar", simple uzez = "startar" e "haltigar"... > > 2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@av= enue.me.uk [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > Kara Gilles-= Philippe, > > Vu skribis: > Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "= enswichar" esus "pozar > (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la= defino quan on donis a > "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elekt= ro-fluo, di la filo-reto". > Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo= ? En elektriko, interruptar > elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo = kam chanjar lua direciono. > > Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di= "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV > falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-= transitiva.) Por me, la senco > di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vo= rto "switch"): startar o > haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar apar= ato, o chanjar la direciono > (voyo) di kurento. > > La defino di "acendar"= da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) > produktar flami, mem nur mik= ra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: > "to inflame (the passions)= " - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke > acendilo esas "lighter". Ico es= as utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro. > > Extensar la senco di "acendar" = por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundus > "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo d= i swichilo nur komencas o cesas > funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala= kazo la kurento, se ol esas tro > forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e kom= encar fairo. > > On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acen= dilo por > funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea p= unto > precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas s= olvar > la problemo. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 > 13:58:15 -0500: > > Nu= , on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acendar" > e= d "extingar". > "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur = per du klaki? > Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!" > > La originala senco res= triktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on > transpozis la senco ad elekt= rala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti > ad irga aparati elektrala, = ka ne? > "Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la >= televiziono." > > Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o = pro quo me > konsideras la situeso tote absurda. > > La Angla "switch" trad= ukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur > (komutilo) e interrupteur (i= nter-rupt-ilo). > Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequa= nte logiko. Or, > pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di = la nomo switch. > > Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas, = selektus > "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" e min logikoza kam >= "interruptilo"? > > Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswich= ar" esus "pozar > (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino= quan on donis a > "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo= , di la filo-reto". > Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En el= ektriko, interruptar > elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam cha= njar lua direciono. > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@av= enue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > > Kande o= n en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke > la ele= ktro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on > "forpren= as" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. > Quale p= lu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"? > Robert C. > > Gi= lles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 > 1= 6:05:32 -0500: > Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswicha= r". On "swichas" > ulo en od ek quo? > > Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? > > 20= 17-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto= ] > : > > Segun quante me savas e memoras, en = nuna Ido, "swichar" esas uzata > precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to t= urn on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn > off). > > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/= enswichar#Ido > https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido > > 2017-01-16= 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > > Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la = Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos > analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca= , me konkluzas ke "swichar" > esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "kom= utar", sive admaxime tota > sinonimo di "komutar". > > Kad on havas informo= pri lua adopto en 1926? > > Gilles-Philippe > > > > > > > --001a1148d536bc2d130546a00822 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Forsan vu deziris skribar:

=C2=ABMotoro= havas amba: komutilo [switch] e kolektoro [commutator].=C2=BB
O forsan me ne komprenis vua exemplo.

Certe la =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB di Ido ne esas la sama kam la =C2=ABcommuter= =C2=BB di la Franca, tote quale =C2=ABpento=C2=BB ne esas la sama kam =C2= =ABpente=C2=BB. =C2=ABKomutar=C2=BB e =C2=ABpento=C2=BB esas plu preciza ka= m sua origini.

Li esas falsa amiki quan plura dici= onarii facas erore. Sive to, sive... on chanjis komplete, tote, integrale, = plene, la senco di =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB. Ma por to me bezonas pruvo. Nam en = la sequanta dicionario, me trovas:
http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm

komut.ar {tr} (= elek.) =C2=A0commuer [sic!], interrompre (math., =C3=A9lec= tr.)

Ta dicionario kontenas =C2=ABgenitoro= =C2=BB, do me konjektas ke sive on konfuze modernigis tre olda dicionario, = sive ta defino esas ankore valida mem pos Dyer.

=
En la Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international=C2=A0(1908), on = ne trovas la verbo =C2=ABcommuter=C2=BB. Tamen, on ja trovas =C2=ABcommu= tateur=C2=BB (switch), qua tradukesas per =C2=ABkomut-ilo=C2=BB, ed on = trovas =C2=ABinterrompre (un courant =C3=A9lectrique)=C2=BB (= swich off an electric current), qua tradukesas per =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB.

Me trovas nula ambigueso en ta dicionarii.

On Sat, Jan 21, = 2017 at 1:31 PM, 'Robert C.' id= o@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0<= /span>
=

Vu citas lexiko qua donas du tradukuri por "komutilo&= quot;: switch, commutator.
Quale me ja probis explikar, semble vane,= la du kozi ne esas sama. Motoro normale havas amba: swichilo e komutilo.
=C2=A0
Me ne savas ka l= a Franca linguo konfundas la koncepti swichar e komutar, ma ol ne esas klar= a a me. La Germana vorto por swichilo semblas esar Schalter, e por komutilo= semblas esar "Kommutator" o "Stromwender".
=C2=A0
La vorto "swichar"= adoptesis en 1926: mikra pazo por plubonigo di Ido.
=C2=A0
En la Raporto da Roze (1937), pri decid= i dil Akademio Interimala, ye pagino 61:
swich-ar, mix. [transitiva = e ne-transitiva] D schalten, E to switch, F commuter [falio hike indikar la= senco] ... en-swichar, ek-swichar, swich-ilo, swich-ili, en-swichili, ek-s= wichili: D ein- ausschalten; Schalter, Ein- Ausschalter. Uzo prefixe di &qu= ot;en" ed "ek" semblas esar de la Germana.
=C2=A0
Robert C.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Fri, 20 Jan 2017 03:51= :00 -0500:=C2=A0
En la Franca, =C2=ABswitch= =C2=BB =3D =C2=ABcommutateur=C2=BB.
c= ommutateur komut.il.o, inter-rupt.il.o



<= /div>
= Segun la Petit Robert, interrupteur:


Nom m= asculin (1= 857) Dispositif permettant d'inte= rrompre ou de r=C3=A9tablir le passage du courant =C3=A9lectrique dans un c= ircuit.
=C2=A9 2016 Dictionnaires Le Robert - Le Petit Robert de la = langue fran=C3=A7aise


Nu! Ta vorto e ta koncepto exi= stas de pos 1857, Ido certe ja havis vorti por expresar la ideo di = =C2=ABswitch=C2=BB, =C2=ABswitch off=C2=BB, e.c.
Fak= te, yen la defini di la English-International Dictionary=C2=A0di 190= 8!




<= /div>
= to switch off=C2=A0(current), komutar


<= /div>
= komut-ar,=C2=A0to break off, shut off (current); -ilo,= =C2=A0switch, commutator. [DEFIS]


Nu, en 1908! La = nura problemo semblas esar, ke mankis vorto por "switch on"... Nu= , me ne mem savas ka "switch on" existis lore.


2017-01-20 0:54 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/interrupteur

<= /div>


Ma certe vu preferas =C2=ABswichilo=C2=BB, ka suste= nesas nur da la Angla.
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">

2017-01-19 9:30 GMT-05:00 = 9;Robert C.' ido@= avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0
Me trovas nula defini por ica vorti en la lexiki da Dyer. Lu= a tradukuro por "komutilo" esas "commutator". Angla dic= ionario dicas ke ico esas "a device that maintains the direction of fl= ow of electric current in a generator or reverses it in an electric motor&q= uot;.

Por "switch" (elektrala), Dyer donas (verbo) "= komutar", e (substantivo) "cirkuito-klozilo, inter-rupt-ilo, komu= t-ilo". Lu ne povis donar plu apta tradukuro ante adopto di "swic= har". Se "komutilo" esas "commutator" ol ne esas &= quot;switch" quale trovebla exemple ye muro di chambro.

Dyer n= e povis donar apta od irga vorti por diversa kozi (quale abaniko, acetono, = anorako, aspirino, atolo), nam apta vorti ne existis en Ido til pose.
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan = 2017 12:52:56 -0500:

=C2=A0Nu, me nultempe skribis =C2=ABst= artilo=C2=BB nek =C2=ABhaligilo=C2=BB! Me skribis =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB = e =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, quale definita che Dyer...

2017-01-18 12:26= GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:=


Vu dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra proble= mo: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "star= tar" e "haltigar"...'

Swichilo esas elektrala ed= esas uzata por startar ed anke por haltigar. Ne suficas dicar "starti= lo" o "haltigilo". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti povas esa= r uzata por chanjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por startar o ha= ltigar ol.

Quale me ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala,= komutilo diferas de swichilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o hal= tigar tala aparato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed aut= omate, ne por startar o haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado.<= br>
Mem se ula linguo o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutil= o kun swichilo, tala neklareso esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona.
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 = Jan 2017 18:31:26 -0500:

=C2=A0Voluntez skribar nova defino (me ace= ptas "startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o= chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento") kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose= povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "komutar" e "int= erruptar". Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Fran= ca "commuter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komuta= r" e "swichar".

La verbo "commuter" esas s= trikte transitiva.

Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problem= o: vice "acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "start= ar" e "haltigar"...

2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 '= Robert C.' ido@av= enue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Kara Gi= lles-Philippe,

Vu skribis:
Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua = defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektral= a". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t= .e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". U= be esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar el= ektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.
Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Paren= teze, LNV falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me,= la senco di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "sw= itch"): startar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato,= o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento.

La defino di "acend= ar" da Pesch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) produktar flami, = mem nur mikra. (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: "to inf= lame (the passions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke acendilo = esas "lighter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro.
=
Extensar la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar&= quot; konfundus "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di= swichilo nur komencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala ka= zo la kurento, se ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar= fairo.

On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acend= ilo por funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punt= o precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar= la problemo.

Kordiale,
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin= gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500:

=C2=A0Nu, on = ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto= : "acendar" ed "extingar".
"Extingez la lumi, = me pregas. Ho? on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante oci= ema socio!"

La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala= ) lumo, ma se on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale a= plikar la vorti ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne?
"Ho ve! La radio= informas ke grava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono."

= Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo = me konsideras la situeso tote absurda.

La Angla "switch" = tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur = (inter-rupt-ilo).
Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur s= equante logiko. Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino d= i la nomo switch.

Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch&q= uot; funcionas, selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "k= omutilo" e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"?

Per vua = exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "poza= r (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on do= nis a "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fl= uo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? = En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam = chanjar lua direciono.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert= C.' ido@avenue.m= e.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Kande o= n en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale k= e la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on &q= uot;forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas An= glajo. Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "sw= itch off"?
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolist= o] - Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:05:32 -0500:
=C2=A0Nu, me ne komprenas la logi= ko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas"= ; ulo en od ek quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?

2017-01-16 = 14:40 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com<= /a>>:

Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swicha= r" esas uzata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn = on) ed "ekswichar" (to turn off).

https://en.wiktionary.or= g/wiki/enswichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswic= har#Ido

2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [l= inguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Pos analizir la defino d= i "swichar" en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini = di "commuter" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" e= sas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime = tota sinonimo di "komutar".

Kad on havas informo pri lua = adopto en 1926?

Gilles-Philippe





=
=

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Me serchos por tu, ma ne quik. > > > > 2017-01-21 0:08 G= MT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> *En Esperanto nulu nomas la kovrilo di lib= ro kom "plata=C4=B5o". Omni nomas ol >> "kovrilo".* >> Fi al PIV! http://vo= rtaro.net/#plata%C4%B5o >> >> La PIV ne esas bona fonto pri uzo Esperantist= a... lu kontenas vorti tal >> quala =C2=ABliva=C2=BB e =C2=ABmova=C2=BB. >>= Me esez plu prudenta en la futuro. >> >> Ube me povas trovar informi pri M= arcel Pesch? Vikipedio nur dicas ke lu >> esis =C2=ABanarkiisto=C2=BB. >> >= > https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espido >> >> Rapide klikante per sua muso, = >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> > > --f403045d5b10fc68c90546a06506 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bone.

2017-01-21 13:25 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] = <linguo= listo@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
<= div id=3D"m_3443838436689105600ygrp-msg">

Pri Pesch me memoras lektir en plura fonti. Me serchos po= r tu, ma ne quik.

=C2=A0=

201= 7-01-21 0:08 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

=
En Esperanto nulu nomas la kovrilo di libro kom "plata=C4=B5o&= quot;. Omni nomas ol "kovrilo".
Fi al PIV!=C2=A0http://vortaro.n= et/#plata%C4%B5o

La PIV ne esas bona fonto = pri uzo Esperantista... lu kontenas vorti tal quala =C2=ABliva=C2=BB e =C2= =ABmova=C2=BB.
Me esez plu prudenta en la futuro.

<= /div>
Ube me povas trovar informi pri Marcel Pesch? Vikipedio nur dicas= ke lu esis =C2=ABanarkiisto=C2=BB.


Rapide klikante per su= a muso,
Gilles-Philippe


=

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"devenas de la Franca"= ; esas nur emfaziva varianto di "venas de la Franca", por substre= kizar l'origino. La varianto "devenas la Franca" esas teorial= e korekta, nam formacita analoge ad "enirar chambro", ma ol esas = evitinda, segun me, pro esar misinterpretebla, precipue parole, e fakte me = nultempe lektis od audis tala expresuro. Ica temo debatesis exhaustive en <= i>Progreso, anke Talmey detaloze skribis pri ol, e nun me tote ne volas= iterar la debato...=C2=A0

2017-01-21 19:18 GMT+00:00 Gil= les-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:<= br>
=C2=A0
<= p>

[devenas la Franca]


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Me trovis nula uzo di =C2=ABheroeno=C2=BB. Tamen m= e trovis du uzi di =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB en 2003, singlafoye sen asterisko! = https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/idolisto/conversations/messages/9987 *= Berlin: Sundio, dum la maratono di Berlin, mediki salvis la vivo di* *heroi= no-konsakrito. La 40 yari evanta viro portis kamizeto kun numero e* *krulis= sur la kureyo. "Il ya odoris ye alkoholo, ma il anke portis* *sporto-shui.= Ni pensis ke esis kuranto", segun la chefo di la medikaro.* https://group= s.yahoo.com/neo/groups/idolisto/conversations/messages/10234 *Me kompris l= a biciklo ante cirkum 4 o 5 yari, de vicino, qua ja ne semblis* *tante fide= bla a me, ma qua es me, dubitar la reputeso di mea vicino. Il* *dicis ke la= biciklo esis de kuzo ilua, qua migris ad altra lando, ed il ipsa* *nulafoy= e biciklagas. Il ne semblis la tipo biciklagema, nam il impresis me* *kom *= adiktita a heroino, ed ilua frajila korpo ne semblis a me apta por* *transv= ivar la kavoza voyi di Amsterdam. Me tranquiligis mea koncio,* *asertante a= me ipsa, ke il parolis la vereso, ke sua kuzo migris ad altra* *lando.* *= On devas savar ke singlayare en Nederlando 900.000 bicikli furtesas (ye* *1= 6.000.000 habitanti), precipue da heroin-adiktiti en Amsterdam. Pro ke on* = *tante facile perdas sua biciklo, on anke ne plu spensas multa pekunio ye* = *nova biciklo, ma prefere kompras uzita biciklo tam chipa kam posibla, por*= *presar la kusti di perdo pro furto. E tale cirklo kreesis, ube la* *heroi= n-adiktito furtas e vendas biciklo (chipege) a ti di qui la bicikli es* *fu= rtita.* Nu! Tala uzo senasteriska di =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB certe konfuzigis = omnu e shokis, ka ne? No. Me simile trovis nula menciono di =C2=ABheroeno= =C2=BB inter 2001 e 2004. Tamen me trovis la mesajo yena da Robert, skribit= a en 2005: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/linguolisto/conversations/m= essages/2006 *Exemple, la vorto "heroin" esas internaciona, ma en Ido ni d= ecidis adoptar "heroeno" por evitar grava ambigueso (pro existo dil vorti "= heroo, heroulo, heroino").* Nu, ka =C2=ABheroeno=C2=BB adoptesis sekrete? = On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 12:36 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [l= inguolisto] wrote: > > > Kara Tiberio, danko= pro tua reakto e, precipue, pro memorigar da me la > inkluzeso di **heroen= o* en SIL. Me konfesas ke, kande me skribis mea > antea mesajo pri ica temo= , me tote ne memoris ke uldie, en 2008, me traktis > ica vorto ed inluzis o= l en SIL. Ica verko kontenas cirkume 800 kap-vorti o > lexikografiala unaji= . Regretinde me ne merkis omna vorti e nun, pos non > yari, me ne memoras l= i omna. Ica vorto ne esas propozita da me. Me simple > trovis ol en du font= i, quin lore (ed ankore nun) me judikas kom fidinda (la > Germana-Ido lexik= o da Ferdinand M=C3=B6ller, imprimita, e la retala Ido-Angla > lexiko da Ro= bert Carnaghan) e me nur provizis ol per defino ed > AGHIR-tradukuri. Me ne= plus memoras ube me cherpis la informo ke la radiko > esas =C2=ABaprobita = inter 2001 e 2003=C2=BB. Me supozas ke Robert ipsa informis me > pri to, ma= hodie, lektinte tua mesajo, me serchis en mea *komputero mea > korespondad= o kun Robert e trovis nula mesajo (sive mea, sive lua) kambiita > inter ni,= quankam me memoras ed esas certa ke en 2008, ante asumar dum tre > kurta t= empo la ofico di linguala sekretario, me kambiis pasable multa > mesaji kun= Robert. Me tote ne savas quo eventis e pro quo ta mesaji > efacesis de mea= komputero. Me uzas Gmail ja de sat longe, ed ordinare ol > esas fidinda e = ne efacas mesaji sen ke la uzanto imperas lo. Me regretas lo > ed esperas k= e Robert konservis kopiuri di nia korespondado. > > Tamen la inkluzeso di *= *heroeno* en SIL tote ne impedas duma > opiniono-chanjo da me. > > Kordiale= , > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > 2017-01-21 14:15 GMT+00:00 tiberiorevas@gmail.com [l= inguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> Stranja! >> Eviden= te, en la furio odiala en qua on esforcas deklarar ke, praktike, >> preske = omna vorti di Ido ne esas oficala, tu distraktite inkluzis mem vorto >> qua= esas en tua SIL, e di qua tu ipsa asertas l'oficaligo inter 2001 e 2003! >= > >> heroen/o [Kem.] Narkotigiva substanco derivita de morfino, uzata >> an= ke kom analgeziivo (C21H23NO5) [A heroin | F h=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne | G >> Heroi= n | H hero=C3=ADna | I eroina | R =D0=B3=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B8=D0=BD | E = heroino]. REM. >> Radiko aprobita inter 2001 e 2003. C@RNAGHAN, M=C3=96LLER= . >> >> Me konstatis lua prezenteso en mea dicionario ma ne en Pesch, do ol= esas >> nova vorto. Me kontrolis ke ol mankas en De Cock, ma esas en la di= cionario >> interretala da Carnaghan, e do ja oficala ante 2010 (ka ne? O k= a nun mem >> Robert Carnaghan ne esas fidinda?). Nu, pro to me komprenis ke= ol ne >> apartenas a mea listi de nova vorti, e do me konvinkesis (eroroze= ) ke por >> mea dicionario me cherpis ol direte de la dicionario da Carnagh= an, e me >> adjuntis la defino. Tamen me nulaloke en mea kladi sucesis trov= ar la >> defino. Me ruptis mea kapo por komprenar ube me skribis ol. Fine m= e, >> neexpektinte, trovis ol en tua SIL kom vorto ja oficala: lore me desk= ovris >> ke la defino ne esas mea, ma tua! Me ne povis imaginar ke tu reneg= is tua >> ipsa vorti! >> >> Kordiale*, (me ne memoras ka "kordiale" esas of= icala) >> Tiberio >> > > > --001a11444f820c21320546a09e7b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me serchis en Idolisto. Me trovis nula uzo di =C2=ABheroen= o=C2=BB.

Tamen me trovis du uzi di =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB e= n 2003, singlafoye sen asterisko!

https:= //groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/idolisto/conversations/messages/9987
<= /div>

Berlin: Sundio, dum la maratono di Berlin,= mediki salvis la vivo di
heroino-konsakrito. La 40= yari evanta viro portis kamizeto kun numero e
krul= is sur la kureyo. "Il ya odoris ye alkoholo, ma il anke portis
sporto-shui. Ni pensis ke esis kuranto", segun la chefo di l= a medikaro.

=
Me kompris la biciklo ante cirkum 4 o 5 yari, de vic= ino, qua ja ne semblis
tante fidebla a me, ma qua es me, d= ubitar la reputeso di mea vicino. Il
dicis ke la biciklo e= sis de kuzo ilua, qua migris ad altra lando, ed il ipsa
nu= lafoye biciklagas. Il ne semblis la tipo biciklagema, nam il impresis me
kom *adiktita a heroino, ed ilua frajila korpo ne sem= blis a me apta por
transvivar la kavoza voyi di Amsterdam.= Me tranquiligis mea koncio,
asertante a me ipsa, ke il pa= rolis la vereso, ke sua kuzo migris ad altra
lando.

On devas savar ke singlayare en Nederlando= 900.000 bicikli furtesas (ye
16.000.000 habitanti), preci= pue da heroin-adiktiti en Amsterdam. Pro ke on
tant= e facile perdas sua biciklo, on anke ne plu spensas multa pekunio ye
nova biciklo, ma prefere kompras uzita biciklo tam chipa kam pos= ibla, por
presar la kusti di perdo pro furto. E tale cirkl= o kreesis, ube la
heroin-adiktito furtas e vendas b= iciklo (chipege) a ti di qui la bicikli es
furtita.

Nu! Tala uzo senasteriska di =C2=ABheroino=C2= =BB certe konfuzigis omnu e shokis, ka ne?

No.

Me simile trovis nula menciono di =C2=ABheroeno=C2=BB= inter 2001 e 2004. Tamen me trovis la mesajo yena da Robert, skribita en 2= 005:


Exemple, la vorto "heroin" esas internaciona, ma en Ido= ni decidis adoptar "heroeno" por evitar grava ambigueso (pro exi= sto dil vorti "heroo, heroulo, heroino").
Nu, ka =C2=ABheroeno=C2=BB adoptesis sekrete?

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at= 12:36 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves6= 4@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&g= t; wrote:
=C2=A0
=

Kara Tiberio, danko pro tua reakto e, precipue, pro memorigar da = me la inkluzeso di *heroeno en SIL. Me konfesas ke, kande me skribis= mea antea mesajo pri ica temo, me tote ne memoris ke uldie, en 2008, me tr= aktis ica vorto ed inluzis ol en SIL. Ica verko kontenas cirkume 800 kap-vo= rti o lexikografiala unaji. Regretinde me ne merkis omna vorti e nun, pos n= on yari, me ne memoras li omna. Ica vorto ne esas propozita da me. Me simpl= e trovis ol en du fonti, quin lore (ed ankore nun) me judikas kom fidinda (= la Germana-Ido lexiko da Ferdinand M=C3=B6ller, imprimita, e la retala Ido-= Angla lexiko da Robert Carnaghan) e me nur provizis ol per defino ed AGHIR-= tradukuri. Me ne plus memoras ube me cherpis la informo ke la radiko esas = =C2=ABaprobita inter 2001 e 2003=C2=BB. Me supozas ke Robert ipsa informis = me pri to, ma hodie, lektinte tua mesajo, me serchis en mea *komputero mea = korespondado kun Robert e trovis nula mesajo (sive mea, sive lua) kambiita = inter ni, quankam me memoras ed esas certa ke en 2008, ante asumar dum tre = kurta tempo la ofico di linguala sekretario, me kambiis pasable multa mesaj= i kun Robert. Me tote ne savas quo eventis e pro quo ta mesaji efacesis de = mea komputero. Me uzas Gmail ja de sat longe, ed ordinare ol esas fidinda e= ne efacas mesaji sen ke la uzanto imperas lo. Me regretas lo ed esperas ke= Robert konservis kopiuri di nia korespondado.

=
Tamen la inkluzeso di *heroeno en S= IL tote ne impedas duma opiniono-chanjo da me.

=
Kordiale,

Gon=C3=A7alo =C2=A0
<= span class=3D"">

2017-01-21 14:15 GMT+00:00 tiberiorevas@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Stranja!
Evid= ente, en la furio odiala en qua on esforcas deklarar ke, praktike, preske o= mna vorti di Ido ne esas oficala, tu distraktite inkluzis mem vorto qua esa= s en tua SIL, e di qua tu ipsa asertas l'oficaligo inter 2001 e 2003!
heroen/o [Kem.] Narkotigiva substanco derivita de morfino, uzata anke kom analgeziivo (C21H23NO5) [A heroin | F h=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne | G
= Heroin | H hero=C3=ADna | I eroina | R =D0=B3=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=BE=D0=B8=D0= =BD | E heroino]. REM.
Radiko aprobita inter 2001 e 2003. C@RNAGHAN, = M=C3=96LLER.

Me konstatis lua prezenteso en mea dicionario ma ne e= n Pesch, do ol esas nova vorto. Me kontrolis ke ol mankas en De Cock, ma es= as en la dicionario interretala da Carnaghan, e do ja oficala ante 2010 (ka= ne? O ka nun mem Robert Carnaghan ne esas fidinda?). Nu, pro to me kompren= is ke ol ne apartenas a mea listi de nova vorti, e do me konvinkesis (eroro= ze) ke por mea dicionario me cherpis ol direte de la dicionario da Carnagha= n, e me adjuntis la defino. Tamen me nulaloke en mea kladi sucesis trovar l= a defino. Me ruptis mea kapo por komprenar ube me skribis ol. Fine me, neex= pektinte, trovis ol en tua SIL kom vorto ja oficala: lore me deskovris ke l= a defino ne esas mea, ma tua! Me ne povis imaginar ke tu renegis tua ipsa v= orti!

Kordiale*, (me ne memoras ka "kordiale" esas ofica= la)
Tiberio

=

--001a11444f820c21320546a09e7b-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4924 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 21970 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 20:39:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 20:39:03 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 32364 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 20:39:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 20:39:03 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.41 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 8QafG1MWLDsQSwenoFWFad7OqRDdHK4LQl5vfbAw5KlFadtn mR3PV3pI8clcSf_YzwokgRhAw2Ro10yiS8U2.ekA4m7OMf4kB9bp0ZRTB263 5m17luJWaLjR1nWvNv8R3f95Q50vHHcSozU9OQo8aCp5w1UR9XNm1UrK8GZe Ks3KS3jUmPQN_qopmT2m8wd6lrf0nKl56Oqhj5x9FbIbvgFHJxPSfmFoLba2 F.D25O31A2poyrget_pYHiXzDZ_2Um4CEEzLXkkI3mjm.4t4Zw_UEuW_04B8 EFGzLUimm1m6lI1wMsqGx5.tJJE8bKTtrvqwcfWKdNBzi0Qe19HMN6qW9NCn OnSod.ARBRDBlOoW.NN8Ibfb0_KZNaWE_kLfn6BXSDvPu.gR9GtTRBd8Vhhy fMvPdlY2eX8JgZGZ8JzDNIFYFXauEp2HpYpSDUPikt86HK7uAAh.XH9yvqRF y09PcrcITmLIpCO_Drm9vT0B3n.ApVy8qUYvEyE_9pWvp7s522VK1CWIoeMD TDou4L1KTJtJNXBmQ8lnKaH0Q7YC1WK5U44EPJhZrltll3saUChu35et9jyq v7aqN1938n4ZCKiT9b..1FsI1d7RQ6lU52ySovePsjsWN6XSeBXeYB396nL9 ujZ0hYJpjClLO.Bt5lUGwQGtgfuM5G1FA1wE9c4nxPm.I8l2fr_ALhX0aqcV _qEwOYkTgrOr00J0QSEZM2izgq4mvnhfvCgzH_gntiRa.Un.ahF26nMYpqyG GHuQfx6.H5TZcal3fMD2riQDWtB7IvLOdUT6sfPuU_lc3NwjU_2aXpjJRhRm 0Y6ROuJOtCFYzRPG6xr.dojJivDzqeOk8C_XGs6C_FDxyuO_KPISMv_Noj.J bedWWpAm5eFXLtzgQnwEhvBePoCEtFrOPEbv1jeUEqT7T5n98nVqChOM3BNv wHAwVVS92lR1Qlsu213DXwm0JFOxKwXTymgR9gzP5o_lyn6SFIFwvSn1L36G yB55LqLrEBjf4Fske18NX.4k6_2IoZ00N_qEz_jSG_ieJdYPbcaXhJvTyF59 E0_9oBsrWlGpNO2oCO24LvNDk7_uscvCDF4_Nuq9.Yv7EJnP6OydfBRtCimJ w4J.syKG9bKszahChEUHDWnfx5DKa98jEZk7MJA66A0H5h6NA2x_shM64L0o M1DAobV1JvT1AH_eG7POWOMhRUMtV.uVOgSf1zjMzRDleq9aVS40jQV.FYtZ SAqZ6kB3Udl76LYko8nUN99Aqvl.0tm4bZqHi6D.qzZucnnRXnzHFSwTAsPW nlekWnIbCFNFFAhndjiuc7Rp9bYCFNTYW6XvMX8YVK2slXYMv0BTBbhxhfhD J7NqSE0Bwg1vXHn.Mj5fwTpMF9ITUgNLpc1.D09DddFnVrdq90X3dqwUGE8y qMDZmUUhCdCjy0DLlF1WTX2dbhK54S53V3GyY2VTy7rzuZL6rqddgh7Eqv.J qvDXPWVg2iANQW0TVwOzZFIVQKBpMrQi7136hAptQJLo2jF4VPvWNdLjiGrv 0r9jKPjSrL.TFzKApO3FcYziyScNmmkpR.bIKl4.O3gBi5Nmzq6xxCK9ov0R VY4urBp0La0- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f41.google.com) (209.85.213.41) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 20:39:03 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f41.google.com with SMTP id x75so69956462vke.2 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:39:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=vI7QlA/H89dLkluEzdrdUonTOmv9msOchJVbw1pOhsI=; b=mMch7HhGPNRyHzoX3Dp/iZmtI1VyM8DTpDcn/Ihe1lxFOSLoiD1Gq/OlgjdCuj2+gj iXlbvL6RyoGwwqaoXlmyN59pxu9imJ26ANYorOWJt3OVl/UuJIcceVAAAuAVsN5AIpNC avItL32x/Twwg1Wfdtt2BYVLHlngRoHXn93vjl4nNT99wZdiLf8mVXaDrT9eARggVrhk kkfyU5ASvR1zW29gGRfjDQS3Dv7Y9CpgYM90+hnbNo1AAA7n/V6/qgT/16FnW3Fm4wBY twyMFKy8UQXiBqA0b2hHqfXM38zxeLyQiVTTjPIDXKmRU1oZw5awIfOKcF2QAJfSckq6 nTPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKUgFL6vr0J+J0I52VOn9asPwwyyTmcmVGf0J9Jc/FusbeevCNrbjav/EB0PyeE7C707Ymu+EZ/KXXMew== X-Received: by 10.31.130.207 with SMTP id e198mr8325588vkd.149.1485031142885; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:39:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:39:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 20:39:01 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11458ba8c08f470546a0c148 Subject: Re: [linguo] -ismi ed -isti X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=VM-gXAFZQ6uwEcH6rPwcowpyEklSZ6lKqwbBqQLel7KZ5tow1npC1Q X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a11458ba8c08f470546a0c148 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, on trovas *vener-ala* en omna vorto-libri, ma ne **vener/ar*, qua nult= empe adoptesis kom verbo. 2017-01-21 19:14 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin= gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Yes= nam, quale skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis por =C2=AB= l'ago > sexuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la *Dictionnai= re > fran=C3=A7ais-international*. > On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [linguolisto] wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> = >> >> >> >> >> Tamen on adoptis ne **venerar* ma *veneracar*... >> >> >> >>= 2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [lin= guolisto] : >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >= > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >= > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Progreso IV, 103: >> >> *Ven= erar, reverar.* >> S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas adoptar la du verbi: *venerar= * (profunda respekto >> kun afeciono) e *reverar* (profunda respekto kun nu= anco di timo). >> Konseque, on devus chanjar *venerdio* a *venusdio*, e ado= ptar *veneriar* por >> l'ago sexuala (subst. *venerio*), de quo venus: *ven= eriala* plezuro, >> maladeso, e c. (N.B. *veneracar*, propozita III, 328, e= sis jus adoptata: >> p. 69, decido 328). >> >> To konfirmas la existo di la= verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB. >> Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifika= s =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>= >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > --001a11458ba8c08f470546a0c148 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, on trovas vener-ala= en omna vorto-libri, ma ne *vener/ar, qua nultempe adoptesis kom ve= rbo.

2017-01-21 19:14 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Yes nam, qua= le skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis por =C2=ABl'ago= sexuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la Dictionnaire fr= an=C3=A7ais-international.=C2=A0
On = Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com> wrote:

















<= br>











=C2=A0

















Tamen on adoptis ne *venerar ma veneracar...



2017-01-21 0:26 GMT= +00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com = [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


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=C2=A0


















Progreso IV, 103:

Venerar, reverar.
<= div class=3D"m_-2971091284261006864gmail_msg">S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas ad= optar la du verbi: venerar= =C2=A0(profunda respekto kun afeciono) e reverar=C2=A0(profunda respekto kun nuanco di timo). Konsequ= e, on devus chanjar venerdio=C2=A0a venusdio, e adop= tar veneriar=C2=A0por l= 9;ago sexuala (subst. venerio<= /i>), de quo venus: veneriala<= /i>=C2=A0plezuro, maladeso, e c. (N.B. veneracar, propozita III, 328, esis jus adoptata: p. 69, decid= o 328).

To konfirmas la existo di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB.
Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB y= a signifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB!


=

<= br>
































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Forsan on kredis, ke la derivo esas evidenta? Danko pro la informo! = On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [lin= guolisto] wrote: > > > Yes, on trovas *vener= -ala* en omna vorto-libri, ma ne **venerr/ar*, qua > nultempe adoptesis kom = verbo. > > 2017-01-21 19:14 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.= com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Yes nam, qual= e skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis por =C2=ABl'ago >> s= exuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la *Dictionnaire >> fra= n=C3=A7ais-international*. >> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7alo Ne= ves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] wrote= : >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>= > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >= >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Tamen on adoptis= ne **venerar* ma *veneracar*... >>> >>> >>> >>> 2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> = >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Pr= ogreso IV, 103: >>> >>> *Venerar, reverar.* >>> S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas = adoptar la du verbi: *venerar* (profunda respekto >>> kun afeciono) e *reve= rar* (profunda respekto kun nuanco di timo). >>> Konseque, on devus chanjar= *venerdio* a *venusdio*, e adoptar *veneriar* por >>> l'ago sexuala (subst= . *venerio*), de quo venus: *veneriala* plezuro, >>> maladeso, e c. (N.B. *= veneracar*, propozita III, 328, esis jus >>> adoptata: p. 69, decido 328). = >>> >>> To konfirmas la existo di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB. >>> Nu, ad = uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB! >>> >>> >>> >= >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> = >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > --001a11444f82f4fd8a0546a0c5f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bone. Forsan on kredis, ke la derivo esas evidenta? Danko = pro la informo!

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] &= lt;linguol= isto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Yes, on trovas vener-ala en omna vorto-libri, ma= ne *vener/ar, qua nultempe adoptesis kom verbo.

2017-01-21 19:14 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolist= o] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Yes nam, quale skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis por = =C2=ABl'ago sexuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la = Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international.=C2=A0
On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolis= to] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


























=


=C2=A0


















Tamen on adoptis ne *venerar= ma vener= acar...


<= div class=3D"gmail_extra m_2831049433245743588m_-2971091284261006864gmail_m= sg">
2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:<= br class=3D"m_2831049433245743588m_-2971091284261006864gmail_msg">









=



















=C2=A0



















Progreso IV, 103:

Venerar, reverar.
S=C2=B0 O. Hugues= propozas adoptar la du verbi: venerar=C2=A0(profunda respekto kun afeciono) e <= b class=3D"m_2831049433245743588m_-2971091284261006864gmail_msg">reverar=C2=A0(profunda respekto kun nuanco di timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar <= i class=3D"m_2831049433245743588m_-2971091284261006864gmail_msg">venerdio=C2=A0a venusdio, e adoptar veneriar=C2=A0por l'ago sexuala (subst. venerio), de quo= venus: v= eneriala=C2=A0plezuro, maladeso, e c. (N.B. veneracar, propozita III, 328, e= sis jus adoptata: p. 69, decido 328).

To konfirmas la existo di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar= =C2=BB.
Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB!<= /div>


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--001a11444f82f4fd8a0546a0c5f8-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4926 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 20324 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 20:47:34 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m11.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 20:47:34 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 1466 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 20:47:34 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.82) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 20:47:34 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.53 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: jANOBm0WLDuQyS_9AMukGLnN4Q7aaMZ5wh44QWR6_1bDHYsW KKwm4cUwGSP3ryxF8x6Cd5MGoPpRu1dZAL_CFWb8i5jCnoRLZL3DcmCKPLgg U7j_EnHD12ZcblM1OfgAajxRMQMGiaMlKhKca_T83c3SIsj2uJ26q9pfMoRE .rWoToH3NBBukpVoRD.40GXBCk2MuIO0g.n66L48grUnKws8iKiViEp4QJEd sMa7g8CeiXbEeYwE2gzEMQ4Dm0tYnEV70juD5F.jrRgdr6YYSyoxpcWOj7qn PykSIG9jyt5cUzRKyOhNC3t7Ucf06ATy5QXe3PLMqOvb8xyIs3MyAJRaXdwD d7t.GeYQMNoRh0Jvr9RrTOILTSdlfv1P0_xfKklGSFRWXusRvJ.vVOUI0BKr yCtRt6CTRlvt46WJBWwev341rEtB_ESjWvD3cbXHTC.XulccEWKNDXlm4SfP 67xQVRfHKZCSOASl9tIrPWDQUNaSux8UZ.ORFr3ybN.txToKsrJ8aK2p6W7O .1AsouvdP4Tt4T_k7xp6cE6Ea71XBpktpLXKvD4MGZsP8ejAqHxqqdm.3sSG hWdkpGJGHMnBOjOsler8nBJME3sUrfhY7Gaudj2ZSY2bOKvS3uSqMBNOB.YQ hs.MAagzpQnynP0uZbSWKaRzZfDBIZSGkuSV1g_IV8eZCALFCRZb20sUu68z xI33yjleYbbHOuMVxozCQQ8T_udqy.1InhYPd_H4V1Ky1pm6n89APuIhg_As ONFak4KC5geVVGjbOiEO9XWK5HExrwBTM7uKsJBdqeeEuc1JrUsx_5A5kw2T 4190rNwvM.kJLNH28k2.0dPgcYqH4WHX2VA7RJWOQXByoEXsEfn6wILn5ASc N0e.eC1hA.k4yDBWESQOsrF3uLPNXlTyaxI0dqdGeCBYph_PSdT6Ja1TyImG 3PhAPh0zNd9mkN3HdfROdOwKy4JFx8xbq0Jt_zFqmeeo6bHOpoUBd9lU6.yh NoklW4mLVcMz6IbWFg9C4__.OuuN6tzP34jQ8PvM8xJFPYtpMzw4TXTHMTT7 N1EGs7s1lgOTrJnEIEUdAygYg9DgFI5w4ITMyF.GHuV12c.pqWO1MHEv12Ge hijp8FdwSdfO47lTkryy6NlYpDETrePgq8j47WSGNP5Lxvlac1G2DIN.wcvF 2kxi9FmXj0DwaLvtqGQKNM7eXtWzCOQOGNlJYFcmpwH8hyToiYROOuEqTQWm MRp8hQ3PCpV7rDJYSf7HVnGdaKgoMYaIztfm.baxNN9WL5dfOh.qEqlhandf sRF9yyzxgGWM.Yyn_DlXInzS2V0voG3L3Z8xdzmgKQ1IPCORSBLKAPwrpW8v ynr7QYcQ1imbfw.VpVXtqKmCOpdmwKuJAjlcycCvnD0QMmX5DkblsZ4kzmLQ YT97CX1DuZCUL6t8kzgfl0hWkA_O6PZTfTbSBQj4lw-- Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f53.google.com) (209.85.213.53) by mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 20:47:33 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f53.google.com with SMTP id k127so69915413vke.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:47:33 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ReAt7nDyC30Dkn4e0sXWkkCvbIRq6sR61rfQo3YGFyk=; b=LvgNrJpk86tOcZopMLoQjL9c+Yn/PTSIz03MvkkReWX8QqJzBg5KkyWH2J0rYnuoz4 Nj/J1an/Wb4cOfleJdOO0JLkbzZyd98K67afG2TlrUwNe6AOWjuPbVCAlCeCbYC2jdzo sEu0KwIMCnjG0+v02/GUwNQGwmF8WOwhv0Fa2m1vOcGm1iEfN2BdNudUCw9+66rET/b2 +A87uBHhp6mJveX7diTl4StwqFcI5y42JpBR3IQxxHpiru/WynIi2oNZ+br8S7iupat3 +2ldg48DUPw2HLwQhZL6zsg79Z2zjAku3QQ8msxYyQ4AKy8sO71MVfxoy2NriWqpW6An GIlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXK1ji2o59+oOYChk5VMHEIDgTGGe7wrk2E4sGOby9nZrRgt8sNnGzCToCWOlygxwo7DzrwBhRoDsj/0Xw== X-Received: by 10.31.141.203 with SMTP id p194mr9822769vkd.79.1485031653074; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:47:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:47:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 20:47:32 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142619c2970de0546a0e041 Subject: Re: [linguo] -ismi ed -isti X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=58KAV3mwZwHNinTpozDQJHS2yigL0nRDoGd3jyxOih1OmmANtb-OGA X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a1142619c2970de0546a0e041 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me supozas ke *vener/ala* esas analoga a *Homer/ala*, ma la relato di *Home= r/ala* a *H=C3=B3meros* esas plu direta ed evidenta kam olta di *vener/ala*= a *Venus/Veneris*, e pro to on skribas *vener/ala* minuskule e *Homer/ala*= mayuskule. 2017-01-21 20:40 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gm= ail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Bone. Forsan on= kredis, ke la derivo esas evidenta? Danko pro la informo! > > On Sat, Jan = 21, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [linguolisto] = wrote: > >> >> >> Yes, on trovas *vener-ala* = en omna vorto-libri, ma ne **vener/ar*, qua >> nultempe adoptesis kom verbo= . >> >> 2017-01-21 19:14 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Yes nam, qu= ale skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis por =C2=ABl'ago >>= > sexuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la *Dictionnaire >>>= fran=C3=A7ais-international*. >>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7a= lo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] = wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>= > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>= > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>= > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tamen on adoptis ne **venerar* ma= *veneracar*... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philip= pe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>>> [linguolisto] : >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>= >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>= >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>= >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Progreso IV, 103: >>>> >>>> *Venerar,= reverar.* >>>> S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas adoptar la du verbi: *venerar* (= profunda >>>> respekto kun afeciono) e *reverar* (profunda respekto kun nua= nco di >>>> timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar *venerdio* a *venusdio*, e ad= optar >>>> *veneriar* por l'ago sexuala (subst. *venerio*), de quo venus: >= >>> *veneriala* plezuro, maladeso, e c. (N.B. *veneracar*, propozita III, >= >>> 328, esis jus adoptata: p. 69, decido 328). >>>> >>>> To konfirmas la e= xisto di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB. >>>> Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB= ya signifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>= >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>= >> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>= >> >>>> >> > > --001a1142619c2970de0546a0e041 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me supozas ke vener/ala = esas analoga a Homer/ala, ma la relato di Homer/ala a H=C3= =B3meros esas plu direta ed evidenta kam olta di vener/ala a = Venus/Veneris, e pro to on skribas vener/ala minuskule e Home= r/ala mayuskule.



2017-01-21 20:40 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phil= ippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Bone. Forsan on kredis, ke la derivo esas evidenta? Danko pr= o la informo!

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0

Yes, on trovas vener-ala en o= mna vorto-libri, ma ne *vener/ar, qua nultempe adoptesis kom verbo.<= /span>

2017-01-21 19:14 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Y= es nam, quale skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis por =C2= =ABl'ago sexuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la Dic= tionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international.=C2=A0
On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]= <lingu= olisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:




























=C2=A0














=



Tamen on adoptis ne = *venerar ma veneracar...

<= /p>



2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguo= listo] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:





























=C2=A0


<= br>

=












Progre= so IV, 103:

Venerar, reverar.
S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propo= zas adoptar la du verbi: venerar=C2=A0(profunda respekto ku= n afeciono) e reverar=C2=A0(profunda respekto kun nuanco di= timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar venerdio=C2=A0a venusdio, e adoptar veneriar=C2=A0por l'ago sex= uala (subst. venerio), de quo venus: veneriala<= /i>=C2=A0plezuro, maladeso, e c. (N.B. veneracar, propozita= III, 328, esis jus adoptata: p. 69, decido 328).

To konfirmas la existo di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar= =C2=BB.
Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas = =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB!










=

























=


<= /div>


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Me supozas ke oli esas sinonima= .

2017-01-21 18:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Quo = esas la difero inter =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB e =C2=ABridinda=C2=BB?

<= /p>

=

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Me ofte lektar = tala expresuro en Esperanto. Tre ofte. On anke trovas =C2=ABde-venar=C2=BB= en dicionarii. Exemple, che Dyer: *derive:* derivar; (*cf.* de-venar, de-= tirar, recevar). *proceed:* (*act in a certain way*) (*intr.*) procedar; (= *continue*) durar ( *intr.*); (*march*) marchar; (*go forward*) avan-irar; = (*bring action*) procesar (kontre ulu); *p. from:* de-venar, venar de od ek= ; naskar; havar origino en; (*journey*) irar ek (od, de); *p. with:* dur-ig= ar (ulo); *then he p.ed to:* lore (od, nun) il komencis; *p.ings:* (*way of= acting*) procedi; (*legal*) proceduro; (*written reports*) raporti; *the p= .ings of the day:* di-ala event-aji. *de:* (prep) (starting point, origin,= derivation) la treno de Lyon: the train from Lyons: blinda de nasko: blind= from birth; de omna lateri: from all sides; de supre ad infre; from top to= bottom; de ta vidpunto: from that viewpoint; komprar de ulu: to buy of som= eone; arachar de la morto: to snatch from death; malada de febro: sick with= (from) fever; (measure, quantity) unu de li: one of them; un horo de march= o: an hour's walk; dek-e-duo de ovi: a dozen eggs; tri metri de rubando: th= ree meters of ribbon; glaso de aquo: a glass of water; peco de pano: a piec= e of bread; el esas la maxim bela de la fratini: she is the most beautiful = of the sisters; duo de rejini: a pair of queens; (after adjectives denoting= dimenions, size, contents): ponto longa de du Angla milii: a bridge two En= glish miles long; barelo plena de vino: a barrel full of wine; konstrukturo= alta de duadek etaji: a building twenty stories high; (=C2=ABsince=C2=BB, = duration of time). N. B. in this sense de-pos is preferable to de alone: me= savas lo de(pos) quar dii: I have known it these (since, from) four days; = me esas hike de du monati: I have been here for two months; de(pos) la mort= o di sua spozino: since the death of his wife; de kande vu lojas hike? me l= ojas hike de un monato: How long (from when) have you lived here? I have li= ved here one month (I am living here from one month). de pos: since, after;= de longe: for a long time past; de kande: since when, how long since; de l= ore: from that time, since then; de pose: from that time, afterwards; de po= s ke: (conj.) since (that); de nun: from now, henceforth, hereafter; de sub= : from under; de dop: from behind. V. exp.: *da, de, di:* Praktikal regulo = por selektar inter ta tri prepozicioni esas la sequanta: Se la senco postul= as klare l'ideo di l'agento od autoro, uzez *da*; se ol postulas klare l'id= eo di deveno, o di konteno o di quanto, uzez *de*; en cetera kazi (do en om= na dubebla) uzez audace *di*; nam olca esas la maxim generala de la tri, ko= respondanta a la genitivo; II=E2=80=9433. On povas generale sequar ica regu= lo (por selektar inter de o di): Uzez di kande la sequanta substantivo hava= s artiklo; uzez de kande ol hava nula artiklo; (III=E2=80=94624). =E2=80=94= FIS Ube en Progreso on povas trovar la debato? En la *Kompleta Gramatiko= * me lektas: *(1).* =C2=AB Nia kunfrato ne prizas la regulo, qua igas *tra= nsitiva* la verbi kompozita ek verbo *netransitiva* e prepoziciono, quale e= n-irar, ek-irar; ed il preferas repetar la prepoziciono. To esas ya permisa= ta, sed (ma) tote superflua, nam en: *me eniras en la chambro*, l'ideo esas= dufoye expresata. Tote logike, *me eniras la chambro* =3D *me iras en la c= hambro*. L'=C2=ABequivalo=C2=BB esas =C2=ABperfekta=C2=BB; to ne esas =C2= =ABsubtilajo=C2=BB; la verbo divenas transitiva, *absorbante* la prepozicio= no ipsa, qua =C2=ABregas=C2=BB la komplemento. (Komparez travidar, trairar,= e.c.) *Progreso*, II, 304, noto. 2017-01-21 15:35 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo = Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >= > "devenas de la Franca" esas nur emfaziva varianto di "venas de la Franca= ", > por substrekizar l'origino. La varianto "devenas la Franca" esas teori= ale > korekta, nam formacita analoge ad "enirar chambro", ma ol esas evitin= da, > segun me, pro esar misinterpretebla, precipue parole, e fakte me nult= empe > lektis od audis tala expresuro. Ica temo debatesis exhaustive en > *= Progreso*, anke Talmey detaloze skribis pri ol, e nun me tote ne volas > it= erar la debato... > > 2017-01-21 19:18 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphm= orin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> [d= evenas la Franca] >> > > > > --f403045d585e76a1490546a0f426 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danko.

=C2=ABol esas evitinda, segun me= , pro esar misinterpretebla, precipue parole, e fakte me nultempe lektis od= audis tala expresuro.=C2=BB

Certe ni do uzez =C2= =ABvenar de=C2=BB vice =C2=ABdevenar=C2=BB?

Me= ofte lektar tala expresuro en Esperanto. Tre ofte.

On anke trovas =C2=ABde-venar=C2=BB en dicionarii. Exemple, che Dyer:

derive: derivar; (cf. de-venar, de-tirar, recevar).

proceed: (act in a certain way= ) (intr.) procedar; (continue) durar (intr.); (= march) marchar; (go forward) avan-irar; (bring action) pr= ocesar (kontre ulu); p. = from: de-venar, venar de od ek; naskar; havar origino en; (jo= urney) irar ek (od, de); p. with: dur-igar (ulo); then he p.e= d to: lore (od, nun) il komencis; p.ings: (way of acting)= procedi; (legal) proceduro; (written reports) raporti; th= e p.ings of the day: di-ala event-aji.

<= div>de: (prep) (starting point, origin, derivation) la treno de Lyon= : the train from Lyons: blinda de nasko: blind from birth; de omna lateri: = from all sides; de supre ad infre; from top to bottom; de ta vidpunto: from= that viewpoint; komprar de ulu: to buy of someone; arachar de la morto: to= snatch from death; malada de febro: sick with (from) fever; (measure, quan= tity) unu de li: one of them; un horo de marcho: an hour's walk; dek-e-= duo de ovi: a dozen eggs; tri metri de rubando: three meters of ribbon; gla= so de aquo: a glass of water; peco de pano: a piece of bread; el esas la ma= xim bela de la fratini: she is the most beautiful of the sisters; duo de re= jini: a pair of queens; (after adjectives denoting dimenions, size, content= s): ponto longa de du Angla milii: a bridge two English miles long; barelo = plena de vino: a barrel full of wine; konstrukturo alta de duadek etaji: a = building twenty stories high; (=C2=ABsince=C2=BB, duration of time). N. B. = in this sense de-pos is preferable to de alone: me savas lo de(pos) quar di= i: I have known it these (since, from) four days; me esas hike de du monati= : I have been here for two months; de(pos) la morto di sua spozino: since t= he death of his wife; de kande vu lojas hike? me lojas hike de un monato: H= ow long (from when) have you lived here? I have lived here one month (I am = living here from one month). de pos: since, after; de longe: for a long tim= e past; de kande: since when, how long since; de lore: from that time, sinc= e then; de pose: from that time, afterwards; de pos ke: (conj.) since (that= ); de nun: from now, henceforth, hereafter; de sub: from under; de dop: fro= m behind. V. exp.: da, de, di: Praktikal regulo por selektar inter t= a tri prepozicioni esas la sequanta: Se la senco postulas klare l'ideo = di l'agento od autoro, uzez da; se ol postulas klare l'ideo di deveno, o di kont= eno o di quanto, uzez de; en cetera kazi (do en omna dubebla) uzez a= udace di; nam olca esas la maxim generala de la tri, korespondanta a= la genitivo; II=E2=80=9433. On povas generale sequar ica regulo (por selek= tar inter de o di): Uzez di kande la sequanta substantivo havas artiklo; uz= ez de kande ol hava nula artiklo; (III=E2=80=94624). =E2=80=94 FIS

Ube en Progreso on povas trovar la debato?

En la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0me lektas:
<= div>
(1). =C2=AB Nia kunfrato ne prizas la regulo, qua= igas transitiva la verbi kompozita ek verbo netransitiva e p= repoziciono, quale en-irar, ek-irar; ed il preferas repetar la prepoziciono= . To esas ya permisata, sed= (ma) tote superflua, nam en: me eniras en la chambro, l'= ideo esas dufoye expresata. Tote logike, me eniras la chambro =3D me iras en la chambro. L'=C2=ABequivalo=C2=BB esas =C2=ABperfekta= =C2=BB; to ne esas =C2=ABsubtilajo=C2=BB; la verbo divenas transitiva, a= bsorbante la prepoziciono ipsa, qua =C2=ABregas=C2=BB la komplemento. (= Komparez travidar, trairar, e.c.) Progreso, II, 304, noto.

2017-01-21 15:35 GMT-= 05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogro= ups.com>:
<= span style=3D"display:none">=C2=A0

"devenas de la Fran= ca" esas nur emfaziva varianto di "venas de la Franca", por = substrekizar l'origino. La varianto "devenas la Franca" esas = teoriale korekta, nam formacita analoge ad "enirar chambro", ma o= l esas evitinda, segun me, pro esar misinterpretebla, precipue parole, e fa= kte me nultempe lektis od audis tala expresuro. Ica temo debatesis exhausti= ve en Progreso, anke Talmey detaloze skribis pri ol, e nun me tote n= e volas iterar la debato...=C2=A0

2017-01-21 19:18 GMT+00= :00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

[= devenas la Franca]


<= div style=3D"color:rgb(255,255,255);height:0px"> =
--f403045d585e76a1490546a0f426-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4929 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 28630 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 21:00:19 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m7.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 21:00:19 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 12596 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 21:00:19 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 21:00:19 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.52 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 90KNJQAWLDszJ9rhlbg3ceWUy5J6hp5OCTX3x2YoP6SjexcQ oR1ew_ElrfymH3dHb1WXKYDOpLDCxD7.hZ8HixJ8tyzv3nYIQhOwDetRW5HF hxSG8JUQdA8rV9WO_RF3wkPgP6HJRrAe2TV0mXjkaYWaaK41.9gilCLY8b4d u1ZdqZSX2FOS0pCennXScgwlxN.hFLiB2KCqxRmr9_NttMKZni2lSjrA7q8y nEBAQI.Ddfe__w2YmFskd5oMW_uZmyA3lbQ.b5Xf__FVG0q0cW_4GzdCKFFB m1m0x93VbfZshnXqUfrfHRU0hF_Rxu7.6rvWzl9aq49Ptk63QLVHT5.qNNRb m42qQ8lsr.bViiEFJaUaZ9Swphftf5Vz_6zi9Fixm_ePUqaJhVjvUU20pSN8 tJFS0kDyksdTePNy92McG8Gpc.WnJ1Ee_Vibk0E2QJJd.50wJT83saXMm9eR p_niRV21raXu2GhCIZ972F5Pgs3tQ_WdYaWqs5JhlQ0q7eB0jNgfgV_hGLqx .wn.llrxPjPkej4pJT5G1CT__qGuESY1Na4O2QHJbnw_rtZyfHPPSIbroQVE 2AiCKOJNkOC5HHjE0RL1mlUd5RGuv6ykWzAT2ktb9EAIvaGv2ER6RnRzhkUo JAGZOfLUG1Z2GSXbCYpZJZFT6jtMiMQG4e8L1OqDbScGd2SqgQ1zdc_t3D7X nt4Dj9pPXyFuUQAQPlU1NmIL4jzy.WypitgHJlJwo4zAMvDYe9Veqj6wuY1J sRDiZSfekMKm5jdqB_V4kUGNS4jXMyL6LnZeZ6uC03tLVU_TE.4GZTD2.w.w XXLVA6rGhTpJ7lztlSntb_UMzuSo3lL3aaaMSoWqn1J4JecuIvsaEfvBz4a6 wKRPXf2JKkhJfTklaF4ShzNQpKHkAIWo7eEumPRL6ilSotgyu1LcmcuNZX8I XQ0qYcgMo967ulJiWh6EmVrCsrZDrG5e.z5vLLZwpKZhiWkc.j8Sckh4Hf4j eeOo3S.hp6pgPf.HEeqMh9eDbjkODEjuuLRUvg2qPKPFoaV4Sjl7wXYgI_sh uCPvExFe75p6toJYX3Ex4Rfr5zfUGbHGQBv121dTUK9IT5PiA.6aUKc2U7lc E_wbBll480eMDD1GabKMD6Kc9IE.ZKpOBGPbXORdIdUCrCFlYic1tS_A0cTO qkLLvHdHe0Rmd2lJnDLEA7tbEpkgzdDJayBmEjG1EHpE93QdkR3ORE4KLrt5 1GCRxB_MvItTlfsaKtPBUhDfwyTPy5xAnXJ2c15UJvGh2PFjN9hyKwaHIZw3 tdce9CMXOdPS9E5ivhGp6_ZhP7rbg_LD_3xzXA9HRXofgc0swL.4Flw4i1Jk moQiaadgnLaqpMAELphiX.kHby_2ZVsWqtZq29JfsDGF4KtUYEHaQWuvz7YE G.HH_MET4XkF2KSV2ll6.HBq23sZKFppcjF2HH_BPw-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f52.google.com) (74.125.82.52) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:00:19 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f52.google.com with SMTP id f73so22945495wmf.1 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:00:18 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=hGyY80OL7BZBMnUI/BcvJ6rvvWzzIADglTv/x8n22K4=; b=GDtfZgx2QLNKduA0cju58Q0JMNwug16dmItcmfZdEiP/qvlM4h8KVXC+gw3P0RvUa+ +DVnHBg4AEzCDXqU1P1saCbjsl+kKJBDgazKVZ3UaQ2tvfBvvIvSQnQ06jeb7CxrZoOt nkS1KcwUmlQ6Jynrz1F1SKuI2RrA2pCXDcJjHWw/mcLBqOP7jmAuUpjeRBIgPDBjHYN9 ccf1rcaYHuvNYXNrLppaFjBIGP43A41gzzDMaEPsareE6enpyLfxoqlc34tgjPhzTdjW rJIovk8swV48TzgPoM53HrRWloECjpeefek7MasP++MvEc/gfutpi7F+AkUsBDV23HLJ 43dQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJkrIO0lOerPVHNX7JFS9iAVIrzMHbKkbgUPZL6/IuT1naJ4lW/FQ2BhbR999EYFbYRaA0ISe/3vrVwlw== X-Received: by 10.223.139.93 with SMTP id v29mr16505656wra.5.1485032417762; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:00:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:00:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:00:16 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045eaddabda7df0546a10d48 Subject: Re: [linguo] -ismi ed -isti X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045eaddabda7df0546a10d48 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, quale atik-ismo! Bone, to semblas esas justa! Do Couturat, en la Enkhi= ridion, skribis =C2=ABveneraji=C2=BB en la sama epoko kam on skribis =C2=AB= infantajo=C2=BB e =C2=ABpuerajo=C2=BB (segun la *Complete Manual*), qui pos= e divenis =C2=ABinfantalajo=C2=BB e =C2=ABpueralajo=C2=BB. Do certe on nun = skribez =C2=ABveneralaji=C2=BB! Danko! On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:47 PM, G= on=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Me supozas ke *vener/ala* esas analoga a *Homer/ala*, m= a la relato di > *Homer/ala* a *H=C3=B3meros* esas plu direta ed evidenta k= am olta di > *vener/ala* a *Venus/Veneris*, e pro to on skribas *vener/ala*= minuskule > e *Homer/ala* mayuskule. > > > > 2017-01-21 20:40 GMT+00:00 Gi= lles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Bone. Forsan on kredis, ke la derivo esas evidenta? D= anko pro la informo! >> >> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Ne= ves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] wrote= : >> >>> >>> >>> Yes, on trovas *vener-ala* en omna vorto-libri, ma ne **ve= ner/ar*, qua >>> nultempe adoptesis kom verbo. >>> >>> 2017-01-21 19:14 GMT= +00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes nam, quale skribita, la verbo = =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB ja rezervesis por =C2=ABl'ago >>>> sexuala=C2=BB. On ya= trovas =C2=ABvener-ala=C2=BB en la *Dictionnaire >>>> fran=C3=A7ais-intern= ational*. >>>> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gm= ail.com >>>> [linguolisto] wrote: >>>> >>>>> = >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>= >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> = >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>= >> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> = Tamen on adoptis ne **venerar* ma *veneracar*... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 20= 17-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>>>> [lin= guolisto] : >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>= > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >= >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>= > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >= >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Progreso IV, 103: >>>>= > >>>>> *Venerar, reverar.* >>>>> S=C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas adoptar la du = verbi: *venerar* (profunda >>>>> respekto kun afeciono) e *reverar* (profun= da respekto kun nuanco di >>>>> timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar *venerdio= * a *venusdio*, e adoptar >>>>> *veneriar* por l'ago sexuala (subst. *vener= io*), de quo venus: >>>>> *veneriala* plezuro, maladeso, e c. (N.B. *venera= car*, propozita III, >>>>> 328, esis jus adoptata: p. 69, decido 328). >>>>= > >>>>> To konfirmas la existo di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB. >>>>> Nu, a= d uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB! >>>>> >>>>>= >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>= >>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>= >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>= > >> > > --f403045eaddabda7df0546a10d48 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =

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--f403045eaddabda7df0546a10d48-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4930 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 18316 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 21:05:57 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m14.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 21:05:57 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 11147 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 21:05:57 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 21:05:57 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: Yc13eUIWLDvN1IH2_Mb.8TY9gc3KZ6zmBg5yo5hEzE9gpov. zlI.9PFM3LkjtWoWdHIK6gpTONxovvoi.rfqmxFChbhHEymUDdsa8d_CdJXh btqrl9XjSNNCunyi0IUI57HkBcpa8KHkqahCV0uJcy7M0mselXOMeuND_7VO RSHzk3WNuYGgXMlsF7z19ufP2LEGEAoKJNnyebsTBr15y.pfNq4qadtHiJm6 FW6dRbZMxt35UIaTaFQ_0YsJOVJX1zOFATJct2vtzwJV7jog04EToqx4NkOy WP2eFcvgD0Lyuw7XLGdHjS4Dos_GzAvrbK8eSjh3lfPXeOiOtOhyVu.sjWHL tz.u3YO70eZE8auR2froumhnYsTWzg4MR7h.5fqXdlHkDnnbM8weemn7jMst uoVPtQ_6lFLUqvg_6yY4Skx1Udg2FHdV6RqI1E2H7pm4ashhsEFlzysO.UyA AxyLr8yuZyVfug3nxQG17jN1UlxrwTDq7vujnx5tQzEp3fIaFJZ2C5Fc9pqm 9bxFUeq_3eLa4jmAT_l2AstnObNEsJnyS.PyjwE2h42t_ylmArQJwJUaV0kT d2zXouPruqRG.mKkWpw_W.vwqZerzsUUzgrDRWEz0KGmThse2tNLAsaaXFUb J2lTIT8LgtEVBJMTG8Uj6q8thL4_.UA9fzsY4I_5fP41FxMedQVCUVRdw1vY Az.rm7U0LfpZKTyCZpLqWEfzRVxFPqUPSonPIdtRzkty3bINJWdsDHKhm.eU cj91v49hT3z.aC6fNBQyPrhsCNyJpB7M7t.tuxdHbPiAtMyf3M23JQzEloTf wVQ5aGjc3lOtNbWLvhJI0c4bF9T_Bi3FRt8adN6FQM6YmOM5yXQhWuY.NlNT PjbfoN4iz0i5204OUV8mpHruw9JVgeYZ.IV.SCgeaO4WKIwmWFPaMgKTCymg AQsc.1mWV5QxQ.9Mc.dwu..X8Gv_eEW.1_yHVvaaTpTd.ZGvQrHEk_mdYy39 cqn4SSU1aCxwoF1423H6aEEAQ8.7.jYT_.YFDM4arJ4FkMMYvHOzzuVhm_uz mpnfvCIAXg1_PuVa.LfRTYgt9orgR..IkVvrWTrN766MsPJt49Gaop2cMtSO aXvmtfiZfG91X2xEkrksrAyliqjBSIQviAMa.U_QPDOaxmv.ztpDX2J.iHUF xX5Jp4Ewydej6KDjzotCzLM8KUF1.d3INRSdVCm8FmNcOGWdx.p6c0BY7coW pJwwQ5Hynz0hbpLXdTQb_ekuQ_MMpd7OOUvhnPAtpsGxbHMpsmhcrQcK3oqV qRs8jCqoqtoitbhBK4OQJ7nVnyAMPQAYChy1OSwnWV2BjhSa7eRRUVcsD5ev abLK.JeJy89fNSEgbFLKrp0maSFiWGRiS2.TdI8qmoP9BLa38YrwKKw0VRii 8Q95Lfz_.KwyOESeQVso0QXjJW7UjPZwbu40_MtsENjjWKxGAZ8cRmkK3GGT ec3ax1BMIsOJ_Y2SNm3acmepUifVv5TmgeoiXhQcU4UtL7qGse7P5l5uqpI4 k8SVWuF1QRp0FzwXvHvGcLFASCh3akXs_4SjvbHfEDFxN0PLw_wbwPAlZe8v kR1Y0kvqRr4_qIT12g-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f53.google.com) (74.125.82.53) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:05:57 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f53.google.com with SMTP id r126so82351101wmr.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:05:57 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=wXZhG8x8xdSLsMTKjS9/6bBLYcokJc9gVR1yODI9QMA=; b=SJ8oLx/fUMHN7lPcRTDlKXTHLbSurSuxh8hnW2FQpCko/pm5Rmgva3qAD9twa9WLsv 7XkKUihLrU0oIU1KjozZknSP/enjb09CZzJwfJWLhQa8tvCbIBxV4UyGYz5VnEfWoayV F+FRi8MPFuR3ubzH+s7rQJS2iHpJ6qtYkDAeoQdsJ2LWkO8z02ko1phsBTUA55vpqXZ7 BDx2pFMOvRSAT1yvjNDNAlHlLmTvtpUuO7yrdHNLR2PCKjAX5sqlVaImIkituwPcWotb 1aLyLzx3l4oyaXsdaZAd0L3Ua5sVlTD1gUMBFjrYBzBA2daz1NuvH9DPiKm60aycZIb1 s0Yg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIa39RJecRZKeXmeXUejB5DTSgIqJWLRkwmuc3O8UCbF7T/fw06VFlJkwH8ZNi7RN/zt53JVJGUZPceJQ== X-Received: by 10.28.139.141 with SMTP id n135mr7764139wmd.50.1485032756179; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:05:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:05:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:05:55 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11442cc2e97c5b0546a121e3 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrcmlkaWt1bGHCuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11442cc2e97c5b0546a121e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bone, danko! Do ka =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB inkluzas omna senci adjektivala di = la Franca =C2=ABridicule=C2=BB? http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/ridicule O= n Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [ling= uolisto] wrote: > > > Me supozas ke oli esas= sinonima. > > 2017-01-21 18:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gm= ail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Quo esas = la difero inter =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB e =C2=ABridinda=C2=BB? >> >> > > --001a11442cc2e97c5b0546a121e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bone, danko! Do ka =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB inkluzas omna senc= i adjektivala di la Franca =C2=ABridicule=C2=BB?


On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <lin= guolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Me supozas ke oli esas sinonima.
=

2017-01-21 18:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolis= to] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

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Quo esas la difero inter =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB e =C2=AB= ridinda=C2=BB?


<= br>
--001a11442cc2e97c5b0546a121e3-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4931 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 57257 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 21:18:22 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 21:18:22 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 24229 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 21:18:22 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.82) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 21:18:22 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.47 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: wIc.cM8WLDuMnFNMZ.HjAqZkTskcnfZ4542dv.wfQje.xU7w xoESfKHZPiMFx2dp3qFQuoHJQAdj712k3pJjddpui9MRdhB0_RjrQrxmIHAH kAcVk9An_q1bz7FqR30.DyGTpZ_ichJ3y7gSONgNqZPb0FlK8ggDAJiNl.VU rE8nXGsQGK3ZWU8SRnVos90guLC4BLdGzaQdSSLCiRZEADg2OHGWo0AQaGh2 FwSh3PAik8XgHPl5DaDsqR22UVJsnJNB4.d7jZATYSu1T06IhoQXqME3bMDX TnMo4h_cOZAwLq_xqj9JwOHYNbPsjUHXmdtsd5Et1ElYenxqGq_J9vA.0RRN ZAIVZ313y5OIZneVjnsojRsIWK7JY_xoLn1.zASBjprEK1jqxVX3SOo4PSJJ YzYreSGUCHe0bvQJTa3zecx2wUIFY4_3iFwLcpKqHe.PkvHRAG6I9BSI_wOP 2r0UNFOiiso0LbaV6USWNcKZliy0v4oFucp8baa_AQFh4wXR32cZng6XY3zt xYzTTXLocB7uvFpqortSsrUfvLoO3pggjo7XWRscBCYxDdG8pmLPgSA66Y58 dfzylKS1IlcPbvnvuTYhTUn6hI3R2_1Ix_J9nL5YDiN3CrC4QLXWO6OKfXWJ w5Sa62PqY5jqOGf1M0ZPmmrujz2ta0XPR8OEAKxp6rvOToP_oc1uQ.I7njTH fxlNW6qq4J6GVh3KZRRb2qyUmb37G53l_hM2E6QfSLsYT7u8_JnnE7QEz.BI s_LkUia8ibavM4g0pfK5q.E.5lUvhYVGPcyvI8S145m.knCIQ4wRjShrAN4q NwN_lEQo2kKRmZQnDNuatwyMFz4sS6w6YL9a5gdjp3GmPebpmKm_tBFjoA.B hiOcAHnNw69aXGX9_pLgx9WMniSGO7VwJZR6t6TM48ia4QsjTE3IhPQE05Bk qGLad2qPoJVgZbT2ZpN4s.sPXE_bu.cJxdF62detsoxGEAGVvbAuIyPiKmoO jJdkI5poS1TbqHfd0KFIKnfgKCIgliU3wY.CQVrr_fbn4lb3.DqwZZtPwjd3 6chD9EGbcA6VjvcK4038Bih2NGRQ8Ap3zq3MsYc1cwR0LoDy2Vgwl8Jk_dJl J9Xg2.jAEwmlVjn3PJvvgDskJWss6S4bnOtSnfOIHHyp0gtadO9x38FKynds JuTpUxZiV5oDtzJYyv79SW.z8zIVXx43RazazE2eAMjqCw6AT5vUg_iKpmhT fN4hlxu9ZGscURDbuS53u6aTTTyOkKEA9j6nmoiKhXnfvzalgRp_gvLnzBU7 _JczeEJQR.Cj Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f47.google.com) (209.85.213.47) by mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:18:22 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f47.google.com with SMTP id k127so70144207vke.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:18:21 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=k98QuhtL9fXhOHWDI4iyq8CPZMwGjpPGYCq9W8NVLI8=; b=uHPHgJs5nmdmunI04s2MZCurp3qxD5oP5fxsJWI/z6AXaEgBG2gX9HUyFV/d6/0BVw isZIGZQ9ErdMCFU2EQ3F9BXjNng5OInBRcPMZRkB+0abF+s387H193TmDxnti+VaS9XR J8oCNrR1MTdXSdmfHa2jslIiVEw/48AI3iTg4qvgyO6BAt3yOcVy1ZLnt3srlLMxp6Pi 4rUXgTCEMVdxpIHUE8ZHskKyHgpc9xhfIP65MbMjFeLORRXBRUK0Rrj5oIfYYS5uTFUq VG6Z4hjrfWJbE6poc0+OXW4xIwOjZIwVajy+Tt+r5gh/eVpmY9RV+MMKyvXY6ilbPSCK dIqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLhYwwJyHe6rhnRYz+OMjJwsX+8ixgIIT3DbTFoLhZomgGIQ9L4BeAOcta2OSUi8xBmrXwingwHR4AyWg== X-Received: by 10.31.59.137 with SMTP id i131mr10398425vka.7.1485033501414; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:18:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:18:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:18:20 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144190454dd1e0546a14e37 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrcmlkaWt1bGHCuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=vyWgldVr9QsjxTdn0zkVUXGaavH9gYZRKmPxhJRKbUwCn4qACBjv2w X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a1144190454dd1e0546a14e37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Supozeble, yes. 2017-01-21 21:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@= gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Bone, danko! = Do ka =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB inkluzas omna senci adjektivala di la Franca > = =C2=ABridicule=C2=BB? > > http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/ridicule > > --001a1144190454dd1e0546a14e37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Supozeble, yes.

2017-01-= 21 21:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroup= s.com>:
=
=C2= =A0

Bone, danko! Do ka =C2=AB= ridikula=C2=BB inkluzas omna senci adjektivala di la Franca =C2=ABridicule= =C2=BB?



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Yes, semblas ke tu esas justa p= ri to.

2017-01-21 21:00 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Ah, = quale atik-ismo! Bone, to semblas esas justa!

Do Couturat, en la Enk= hiridion, skribis =C2=ABveneraji=C2=BB en la sama epoko kam on skribis =C2= =ABinfantajo=C2=BB e =C2=ABpuerajo=C2=BB (segun la Complete Manual),= qui pose divenis =C2=ABinfantalajo=C2=BB e =C2=ABpueralajo=C2=BB. Do certe= on nun skribez =C2=ABveneralaji=C2=BB!

Danko!
=

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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=dBWx8XEODKtsUyZhRiq3H_91KYV4bvyqFX5EA8dGL18Xd2iu7Os9Bg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --f403045f8b381c12cd0546a148a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable La citita artiklo certe esas da Couturat, nam ol ne esas signatita. La tono= esas ya tre stranja, e por komprenar (ne por aceptar...) olu, oportus save= skar quo lore dicesis kontre Ido e lua vortifado en Espo-periodali, nam l'a= rtiklo semblas esar impetuoza reakto a lora kritiki da Espisti. Pro to l'ac= erba tono ne-aceptinda... Malgre ica tre importanta informo (danko!), me h= avas plusa expliko, qua forsan helpos ni komprenar vorto-formi quala *kalid= oskopo*, *akoluto*, edc, ma ol esos temo di futura blogajo... kande me havo= s tempo! 2017-01-20 21:37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail= .com [linguolisto] : > > > Kara samideani, > = Yen mea lasta artiklo pri *ev* en la vorti Greka. Cafoye, me citas du > art= ikli trovita en Progreso. > > https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/linguo-kun-a= rogo/ > > Me esperas, ke ta du artikli nun bone explikas pro quo ni havas = =C2=ABnevroso=C2=BB, > =C2=ABnevrito=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABn= evroptero=C2=BB, =C2=ABglikoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakoluto=C2=BB, > =C2=ABkalidosk= opo=C2=BB... vice =C2=ABneuroso=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurito=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurologi= o=C2=BB, =C2=ABneuroptero=C2=BB, > =C2=ABglukoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakolito=C2=BB= , =C2=ABkaleidoskopo=C2=BB, e.c. > > Nia linguo ne sempre sequis DEFIRS. > = > Me nun opinionas, ke ni debatez pri granda reformo: reformo qua selektus = > sive internacioneso, sive etimologio. Nam la nuna stando esas tre mala. >= > Se ni selektus internacioneso, ni adoptus: > *akolito > aleurono > *aneu= rismo > *aponeuroso > *glukoso > *kaleidoskopo > *neuralgio > *neurastenio = > *neurito > *neurologio > neurono > *neuroptero > *neuroso > *pleuro > *pl= eurito > pleuronekto > pleuronektoido > > Se ni selektus etimologio, ni ado= ptus: > akoluto (akolouthos, acolythus) > *alevrono (aleuron) > anevrismo (= aneurusma) > glikoso (gleukos) > kalidoskopo (kal=C3=B3s + e=C3=AEdos, cali= doscopium) > nevralgio (ne=C3=BBron + =C3=A1lgos, neuralgia) > nevrastenio = (neuro-) > nevrito (neuro-) > nevrologio (neuro-) > *nevrono (neuro-) > nev= roptero (neuro-) > nevroso (neuro-) > plevro (pleura) > plevrito (pleuritis= ) > *plevronekto (Pleuronectes) > *plevronektoido (*plevronekt-oido? La "o"= trovesas nulaloke...) > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > > > > = > > > > > > > > > --f403045f8b381c12cd0546a148a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">La citita artiklo certe es= as da Couturat, nam ol ne esas signatita. La tono esas ya tre stranja, e po= r komprenar (ne por aceptar...) olu, oportus saveskar quo lore dicesis kont= re Ido e lua vortifado en Espo-periodali, nam l'artiklo semblas esar im= petuoza reakto a lora kritiki da Espisti. Pro to l'acerba tono ne-acept= inda...

Malgre= ica tre importanta informo (danko!), me havas plusa expliko, qua forsan he= lpos ni komprenar vorto-formi quala kalidoskopo, akoluto, edc= , ma ol esos temo di futura blogajo... kande me havos tempo!

=
=C2=A0

2017-01-20 21:= 37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com<= /a>>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara samideani,
Yen mea lasta ar= tiklo pri ev=C2=A0en la vorti Greka. Cafoye, me citas du artikli tro= vita en Progreso.


Me esperas, = ke ta du artikli nun bone explikas pro quo ni havas =C2=ABnevroso=C2=BB, = =C2=ABnevrito=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevroptero=C2=BB, =C2=AB= glikoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakoluto=C2=BB, =C2=ABkalidoskopo=C2=BB... vice =C2=ABn= euroso=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurito=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABneuroptero= =C2=BB, =C2=ABglukoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakolito=C2=BB, =C2=ABkaleidoskopo=C2=BB,= e.c.

Nia linguo ne sempre sequis DEFIRS.

Me nun opinionas, ke ni debatez pri granda reformo: reform= o qua selektus sive internacioneso, sive etimologio. Nam la nuna stando esa= s tre mala.

Se ni selektus internacioneso, ni adop= tus:
*akolito
aleurono
*aneurismo
*= aponeuroso
*glukoso
*kaleidoskopo
*neural= gio
*neurastenio
*neurito
*neurologio
neurono
*neuroptero
*neuroso
*pleuro
*pleurito
pleuronekto
pleuronektoido

Se ni selektus etimologio, ni adoptus:
akoluto (a= kolouthos, acolythus)
*alevrono (aleuron)
anevrismo (an= eurusma)
glikoso (gleukos)
kalidoskopo (kal=C3=B3s + e= =C3=AEdos, calidoscopium)
nevralgio (ne=C3=BBron +=C2=A0=C3=A1lgo= s, neuralgia)
nevrastenio (neuro-)
nevrito (neuro-)
nevrologio (neuro-)
*nevrono (neuro-)
nevroptero= (neuro-)
nevroso (neuro-)
plevro (pleura)
pl= evrito (pleuritis)
*plevronekto (Pleuronectes)
*plevron= ektoido (*plevronekt-oido? La "o" trovesas nulaloke...)

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
<= /div>
=

=










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Tre ofte. > > On anke trovas =C2=ABde-venar= =C2=BB en dicionarii. Exemple, che Dyer: > > *derive:* derivar; (*cf.* de-v= enar, de-tirar, recevar). > > *proceed:* (*act in a certain way*) (*intr.*)= procedar; (*continue*) > durar (*intr.*); (*march*) marchar; (*go forward*= ) avan-irar; (*bring > action*) procesar (kontre ulu); *p. from:* de-venar,= venar de od ek; > naskar; havar origino en; (*journey*) irar ek (od, de); = *p. with:* > dur-igar (ulo); *then he p.ed to:* lore (od, nun) il komencis;= *p.ings:* (*way > of acting*) procedi; (*legal*) proceduro; (*written repo= rts*) raporti; *the > p.ings of the day:* di-ala event-aji. > > *de:* (prep= ) (starting point, origin, derivation) la treno de Lyon: the > train from L= yons: blinda de nasko: blind from birth; de omna lateri: from > all sides; = de supre ad infre; from top to bottom; de ta vidpunto: from that > viewpoin= t; komprar de ulu: to buy of someone; arachar de la morto: to > snatch from= death; malada de febro: sick with (from) fever; (measure, > quantity) unu = de li: one of them; un horo de marcho: an hour's walk; > dek-e-duo de ovi: = a dozen eggs; tri metri de rubando: three meters of > ribbon; glaso de aquo= : a glass of water; peco de pano: a piece of bread; el > esas la maxim bela= de la fratini: she is the most beautiful of the sisters; > duo de rejini: = a pair of queens; (after adjectives denoting dimenions, > size, contents): = ponto longa de du Angla milii: a bridge two English miles > long; barelo pl= ena de vino: a barrel full of wine; konstrukturo alta de > duadek etaji: a = building twenty stories high; (=C2=ABsince=C2=BB, duration of time). > N. B= . in this sense de-pos is preferable to de alone: me savas lo de(pos) > qua= r dii: I have known it these (since, from) four days; me esas hike de du > = monati: I have been here for two months; de(pos) la morto di sua spozino: >= since the death of his wife; de kande vu lojas hike? me lojas hike de un >= monato: How long (from when) have you lived here? I have lived here one > = month (I am living here from one month). de pos: since, after; de longe: > = for a long time past; de kande: since when, how long since; de lore: from >= that time, since then; de pose: from that time, afterwards; de pos ke: > (= conj.) since (that); de nun: from now, henceforth, hereafter; de sub: from = > under; de dop: from behind. V. exp.: *da, de, di:* Praktikal regulo por >= selektar inter ta tri prepozicioni esas la sequanta: Se la senco postulas = > klare l'ideo di l'agento od autoro, uzez *da*; se ol postulas klare > l'i= deo di deveno, o di konteno o di quanto, uzez *de*; en cetera kazi (do > en= omna dubebla) uzez audace *di*; nam olca esas la maxim generala de la > tr= i, korespondanta a la genitivo; II=E2=80=9433. On povas generale sequar ica= > regulo (por selektar inter de o di): Uzez di kande la sequanta substanti= vo > havas artiklo; uzez de kande ol hava nula artiklo; (III=E2=80=94624). = =E2=80=94 FIS > > Ube en Progreso on povas trovar la debato? > > En la *Kom= pleta Gramatiko* me lektas: > > *(1).* =C2=AB Nia kunfrato ne prizas la reg= ulo, qua igas *transitiva* la verbi > kompozita ek verbo *netransitiva* e p= repoziciono, quale en-irar, ek-irar; > ed il preferas repetar la prepozicio= no. To esas ya permisata, sed (ma) > tote superflua, nam en: *me eniras en = la chambro*, l'ideo esas dufoye > expresata. Tote logike, *me eniras la cha= mbro* =3D *me iras en la chambro*. > L'=C2=ABequivalo=C2=BB esas =C2=ABperf= ekta=C2=BB; to ne esas =C2=ABsubtilajo=C2=BB; la verbo divenas > transitiva= , *absorbante* la prepoziciono ipsa, qua =C2=ABregas=C2=BB la > komplemento= . (Komparez travidar, trairar, e.c.) *Progreso*, II, 304, noto. > > --001a113d15eeab326e0546a16727 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tu miskomprenis me: mea frazo = =C2=ABol esas evitinda, segun me, pro esar misinterpretebla, precipue parol= e, e fakte me nultempe lektis od audis tala expresuro=C2=BB koncernas ne l&= #39;expresuro "devenar de la Franca" ma "devenar l= a Franca"...



2017-01-21 20:53 GMT+0= 0:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@g= mail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com><= /span>:
=
=C2=A0

Danko.

=C2=ABol esas evitinda, segun me, pro es= ar misinterpretebla, precipue parole, e fakte me nultempe lektis od audis t= ala expresuro.=C2=BB

Certe ni do uzez =C2=ABvenar = de=C2=BB vice =C2=ABdevenar=C2=BB?

Me ofte lek= tar tala expresuro en Esperanto. Tre ofte.

On anke= trovas =C2=ABde-venar=C2=BB en dicionarii. Exemple, che Dyer:
derive: derivar; (cf. de-venar, de-tirar, recevar).
=

proceed: (act in a certain way) (= intr.) procedar; (continue) durar (intr.); (march)= marchar; (go forward) avan-irar; (bring action) procesar (ko= ntre ulu); p. from: = de-venar, venar de od ek; naskar; havar origino en; (journey)= irar ek (od, de); p. with: dur-igar (ulo); then he p.ed to: = lore (od, nun) il komencis; p.ings: (way of acting) procedi; = (legal) proceduro; (written reports) raporti; the p.ings o= f the day: di-ala event-aji.

de:= (prep) (starting point, origin, derivation) la treno de Lyon: the trai= n from Lyons: blinda de nasko: blind from birth; de omna lateri: from all s= ides; de supre ad infre; from top to bottom; de ta vidpunto: from that view= point; komprar de ulu: to buy of someone; arachar de la morto: to snatch fr= om death; malada de febro: sick with (from) fever; (measure, quantity) unu = de li: one of them; un horo de marcho: an hour's walk; dek-e-duo de ovi= : a dozen eggs; tri metri de rubando: three meters of ribbon; glaso de aquo= : a glass of water; peco de pano: a piece of bread; el esas la maxim bela d= e la fratini: she is the most beautiful of the sisters; duo de rejini: a pa= ir of queens; (after adjectives denoting dimenions, size, contents): ponto = longa de du Angla milii: a bridge two English miles long; barelo plena de v= ino: a barrel full of wine; konstrukturo alta de duadek etaji: a building t= wenty stories high; (=C2=ABsince=C2=BB, duration of time). N. B. in this se= nse de-pos is preferable to de alone: me savas lo de(pos) quar dii: I have = known it these (since, from) four days; me esas hike de du monati: I have b= een here for two months; de(pos) la morto di sua spozino: since the death o= f his wife; de kande vu lojas hike? me lojas hike de un monato: How long (f= rom when) have you lived here? I have lived here one month (I am living her= e from one month). de pos: since, after; de longe: for a long time past; de= kande: since when, how long since; de lore: from that time, since then; de= pose: from that time, afterwards; de pos ke: (conj.) since (that); de nun:= from now, henceforth, hereafter; de sub: from under; de dop: from behind. = V. exp.: da, de, di: Praktikal regulo por selektar inter ta tri prep= ozicioni esas la sequanta: Se la senco postulas klare l'ideo di l'a= gento od autoro, uzez da; se ol postulas klare l'ideo di deveno, o di konteno o di q= uanto, uzez de; en cetera kazi (do en omna dubebla) uzez audace d= i; nam olca esas la maxim generala de la tri, korespondanta a la geniti= vo; II=E2=80=9433. On povas generale sequar ica regulo (por selektar inter = de o di): Uzez di kande la sequanta substantivo havas artiklo; uzez de kand= e ol hava nula artiklo; (III=E2=80=94624). =E2=80=94 FIS
Ube en Progreso on povas trovar la debato?

En la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0me lektas:

(1). =C2=AB Nia kunfrato ne prizas la regulo, qua igas t= ransitiva la verbi kompozita ek verbo netransitiva e prepozicion= o, quale en-irar, ek-irar; ed il preferas repetar la prepoziciono. To esas ya permisata, sed (ma) tote= superflua, nam en: me eniras en la chambro, l'ideo esas = dufoye expresata. Tote logike, me eniras la chambro =3D me iras e= n la chambro. L'=C2=ABequivalo=C2=BB esas =C2=ABperfekta=C2=BB; to = ne esas =C2=ABsubtilajo=C2=BB; la verbo divenas transitiva, absorbante la prepoziciono ipsa, qua =C2=ABregas=C2=BB la komplemento. (Komparez tr= avidar, trairar, e.c.) Progreso, II, 304, noto.


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Bone, danko! Me konsideras skribar defino di amba vorti en= Wikivortaro.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= ;linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0
=

Supozeble, yes.

2017-01-21 21:05 GM= T+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Bone, danko! D= o ka =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB inkluzas omna senci adjektivala di la Franca =C2= =ABridicule=C2=BB?



=

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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11444f82467fdd0546a15caa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yen tre bona komento quan skribis Brian Drake, e quan me respondizis en mea= blogo: https://web.archive.org/web/20170121212127/https://bovino-lakto.rh= cloud.com/linguo-kun-arogo/ 2017-01-20 16:37 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Mor= in : > Kara samideani, > Yen mea lasta artiklo pri *ev= * en la vorti Greka. Cafoye, me citas du > artikli trovita en Progreso. > >= https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/linguo-kun-arogo/ > > Me esperas, ke ta d= u artikli nun bone explikas pro quo ni havas =C2=ABnevroso=C2=BB, > =C2=ABn= evrito=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevroptero=C2=BB, =C2=ABglikoso= =C2=BB, =C2=ABakoluto=C2=BB, > =C2=ABkalidoskopo=C2=BB... vice =C2=ABneuros= o=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurito=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABneuroptero=C2= =BB, > =C2=ABglukoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakolito=C2=BB, =C2=ABkaleidoskopo=C2=BB, = e.c. > > Nia linguo ne sempre sequis DEFIRS. > > Me nun opinionas, ke ni de= batez pri granda reformo: reformo qua selektus > sive internacioneso, sive = etimologio. Nam la nuna stando esas tre mala. > > Se ni selektus internacio= neso, ni adoptus: > *akolito > aleurono > *aneurismo > *aponeuroso > *gluko= so > *kaleidoskopo > *neuralgio > *neurastenio > *neurito > *neurologio > n= eurono > *neuroptero > *neuroso > *pleuro > *pleurito > pleuronekto > pleur= onektoido > > Se ni selektus etimologio, ni adoptus: > akoluto (akolouthos,= acolythus) > *alevrono (aleuron) > anevrismo (aneurusma) > glikoso (gleuko= s) > kalidoskopo (kal=C3=B3s + e=C3=AEdos, calidoscopium) > nevralgio (ne= =C3=BBron + =C3=A1lgos, neuralgia) > nevrastenio (neuro-) > nevrito (neuro-= ) > nevrologio (neuro-) > *nevrono (neuro-) > nevroptero (neuro-) > nevroso= (neuro-) > plevro (pleura) > plevrito (pleuritis) > *plevronekto (Pleurone= ctes) > *plevronektoido (*plevronekt-oido? La "o" trovesas nulaloke...) > >= Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > --001a11444f82467fdd0546a15caa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yen tre bona komento quan skribis Brian Drake, e quan me r= espondizis en mea blogo:


2017-01-20 16:37 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gp= hmorin@gmail.com>:


--001a11444f82467fdd0546a15caa-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4937 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 10978 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 21:47:54 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 21:47:54 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 11710 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 21:47:54 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 21:47:54 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: tZEryUAWLDu7lv4TLuasz0WG7hjq.eE7o9c4B0hozcNMIvGI JVeKPhXmGynFx9u5lATKHtR7LDh6MT9XrpsqV5RP9FBHrOaL_2CuwVNBN1W9 Wh0OS0uqEjMmWhMKj07UEWXJA8ZoqLS4c0wAR9SzcOaTek3cq5lQrTQDdeR. nkyWV9PnOo.yzL4Y6t74O__.5i_1wIROz0qpj6kz3nWNw6xvze3OWvG_4mL0 d4G9BUhphLq2X1z7pwKSII.exQhsCA7XHOdUUtwtd.OBa_lCaJU4Qz5GFxIN hmwYIjzqQp2upbtrIoOtBbOZYKo4.M1XT4ApG_tNFoFRhvA7Kq5hvRXOKWcB 6XVhDQub2Y9xng84narcW5RPRZBhvG2DeEW26nFMN.xV2N4WazBNEU01pLxg f.GuMfEaC6bBgcvaA6h.H6FU2h1a0tFepjzjuO9ujw7oEatWWCGcRbV3eGIT 3JThCds9IcfKKT_FNHMRWAMxqDn6eDjADWd_GqulZf1Q4lpN.aj3Iq4mKDNO qsWmtX_HzrbglrG.VdABH4UU.BtMBcwGybqIAw9d675cu6qDN8qIDes5N4zT gVsEDKC6MTeooUtk8XR5wwgSP2Akx0sH0Bnz0IWeXk0eie_GTVi9uNnKbBxf HmwGBY8gFTU4WxlTwl_Om0iTZTXkdinyJ5lv2g9hh5H.mkTqqWhfpVo5I2vI n20k3NPwXU6YsVAvJz_UwKvHg6vw2nql7ASSLyODSWlj6lCxw09w07qm06W2 MHVxEBMo6orTQND.7.O4rjPWFOBwcc0rosy6jraAgnLTIznubmAQWl1ZZA43 HwTbV2zOwERHEEpFFQk2sh6.CLzGFLtYtVvXtABHuGUR_ZXcYeuEJ3s0pVRg wNOU3.2kGy6ttn2N.jcZd3fAOtZki5Mg4Whli66bADAqzdwZgslz93EBZAlm xAc0bGqY_EZqkrKSbAoAkQja0J58.BKMmvNM.cCe1Gd0yaX5ygN2SleeKOde 2k7WvMt6OuZWbG_Q1Njiu7Yi7rB24TOCnNDshYHhOTPddMpcOB7MdardhCEq lxr5UeLc_bHxUnYCrR2NNcDdn.NZg.d27rSnLfU.GhOsqelLV7jWP7tK76TX BsloB7KXOwAwZKQV9Q8g5OIJN4nYv.ZAXW_66BZQ9xXZvVttVLXxnQzqN.nJ tTNML5_zJCPs8XtJXvu7iSGs9RYG_ABz2XkL0VAecULS78XqOZRnoMGzwA6k YP2KIV3rO3i.L6TD2lIX6Z.USsxuoxzK6RVYgsEgkqYAm8729F4HNqF7w4.J CAtPmreNqRUO9MTCy1FYu3lUUNhGMhID3wyKga54pjhV.9YnKS7BdlUs6qHI 6GQjSTHQivOpjJuVLJUq6tulj3_4BB2Px5lBVcV8vGNp7R.SVmFpXiap4aa7 9jc5c7ud0lkgCaLiWDi5IvLMld9uvBXAqRCQfeQ1UVTzhMMYh6bwfuVDEBnU 7jNDP_v0gtXj4n_8RwC_oxpFuF8xN9WnxgLoYJlXdM0vgaup0q3UWbxGISyR M1JTnT6V_ASNYqg2x7mSgU9O5rivkwSmRUOMjnYRyV3MkgqMUzsaepSLlo18 jpwjYj93yATaVKqBZ0QD3w-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f43.google.com) (74.125.82.43) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:47:54 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f43.google.com with SMTP id c206so97327731wme.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 13:47:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=E4Vx5n/Dk1BYMmA6r4e8I5fQVAGmFwIZ+68Ka1zlt6M=; b=UMEi8XJNYK7ioDc4IDhXKgk9vgC+5WIM6AK9OJOWHNEmU1ir1umT6qwFRgqfdAvyBj /mxhXqY3jm8/6p9NTOELq4wDTKditd3c5N2JobLNqpVY0blR6rTXi8rZo+vNPX+Ra+I8 +wE0nWkXanXw+kiSioMu8/9N+JY445ttPJQag3y3ZuZFh+8QbI9X79GgXQSXQwXBQ78v Tkkduwkcs3hsSV+FBsvsPOh/6qevAh3MpA1Qo9fm5HZqqfWIlVmte9xv1mItwMYq8yWr SbKMtW/L2OhViT4FyBcSobg0yutVBj2IcwjxkY1fIZQTjkyEUI9cd4unjuDQ9faT/68r 4dNw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXImCYmHxHrjA08fi4TF1GQ3KyZ4rzF8eoj1pHBmsBr5o+jKdhnlj5ll3JUUoRJ/Sdpei+UyRENgSeJSNA== X-Received: by 10.28.92.83 with SMTP id q80mr8437363wmb.69.1485029519599; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:11:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 12:11:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 15:11:58 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1145b04aff30100546a06030 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIFJlOiDCq0lkb2xpbmd1b8K7?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1145b04aff30100546a06030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To esas stranja. En la =C2=ABaltra latero=C2=BB (Esperanto), me trovas nur = tri uzi di =C2=ABesperantolingvisto=C2=BB en la Interreto: *Mi opinias min= lingvouzanto, ne fakfaka esperantolingvisto.* *Kiel Esperantolingvisto, li= pledadis por simpla, facila uzado de nia lingvo. Li ne sisteme rifuzis neo= logismojn, sed stimuladis la fundamentan Zamenhofan manieron.* *Supozu, ke= vi estus esperantolingvisto, do kion vi decidus nun pri mia tradukado?* N= u, en ta tri uzi, me ne kredas ke =C2=ABEsperantolingvisto=C2=BB esas sinon= imo di =C2=ABEsperantisto=C2=BB... Ma certe, ula Idisti prizas extravagar.= 2017-01-21 14:35 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguo= listo@yahoogroups.com>: > > > La nomo "Idolinguo" (ne "Ido-linguo") uzesas= , apud "Ido", de multa yari > ante nun: ol uzesis olim ed uzesas nun-tempe,= tote senprobleme. Tamen, por > plusa fidindeso, recente eventis pria inque= sto, che l' forumo Ido-listo, > qua konfirmas ke granda majoritato del voti= nti preferas amba nomi, "Ido" ed > "Idolinguo" por nia helpo-linguo interna= ciona. Tal inquesto duras apertita, > ed on ankor darfas votar: https://gr= oups.yahoo.com/neo/ > groups/idolisto/polls/open > Tamen, nulu koaktesas uz= ar la nomo "Idolinguo", se on preferas uzar nur > "Ido". E same: ni omna es= as Idisti od Idolinguisti (ne Ido-linguisti), ma > on ya darfas preferar es= ar nur Idisto, Ido-uzanto, Ido-parolanto, edc. > Jespersen esis Idisto, Ido= linguisto ed Ido-linguisto e, mem se to lasta > esus advere konfliktiva, on= anke povas expresar la linguisteso Idal > altra-maniere, ka ne? Nula probl= emo. > > (Partaka) > > > > > --001a1145b04aff30100546a06030 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To esas stranja. En la =C2=ABaltra latero=C2=BB (Esperanto= ), me trovas nur tri uzi di =C2=ABesperantolingvisto=C2=BB en la Interreto:=

Mi opinias min lingvouzanto, ne fakfaka esperan= tolingvisto.
Kiel Esperantolingvisto, li pledad= is por simpla, facila uzado de nia lingvo. Li ne sisteme rifuzis neologismo= jn, sed stimuladis la fundamentan Zamenhofan manieron.
= Supozu, ke vi estus esperantolingvisto, do kion vi decidus nun pri mia t= radukado?

Nu, en ta tri uzi, me ne = kredas ke =C2=ABEsperantolingvisto=C2=BB esas sinonimo di =C2=ABEsperantist= o=C2=BB...

Ma certe, ula Idisti prizas extravagar.=

2017-= 01-21 14:35 GMT-05:00 qualevista= ndas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >:
=C2=A0 =
=

La nomo "Idolinguo" (n= e "Ido-linguo") uzesas, apud "Ido", de multa yari ante = nun: ol uzesis olim ed uzesas nun-tempe, tote senprobleme. Tamen, por plusa= fidindeso, recente eventis pria inquesto, che l' forumo Ido-listo, qua= konfirmas ke granda majoritato del votinti preferas amba nomi, "Ido&q= uot; ed "Idolinguo" por nia helpo-linguo internaciona. Tal inques= to duras apertita, ed on ankor darfas votar: =C2=A0https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/idolisto/polls/open=C2=A0<= /span>

Tamen, nulu koaktesas uzar la= nomo "Idolinguo", se on preferas uzar nur "Ido". E sam= e: ni omna esas Idisti od Idolinguisti (ne Ido-linguisti), ma on ya darfas = preferar esar nur Idisto, Ido-uzanto, Ido-parolanto, edc. Jespersen esis Id= isto, Idolinguisto ed Ido-linguisto e, mem se to lasta esus advere konflikt= iva, on anke povas expresar la linguisteso Idal altra-maniere, ka ne? Nula = problemo.=C2=A0

=
=C2=A0(Partaka)

=C2=A0


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Me sugestis, vice skribar =C2=ABdevenar la Franca=C2= =BB, skribar =C2=ABvenar de la Franca=C2=BB tote simple. On Sat, Jan 21, 2= 017 at 4:25 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Tu miskomprenis me: mea frazo =C2=ABol= esas evitinda, segun me, pro esar > misinterpretebla, precipue parole, e f= akte me nultempe lektis od audis tala > expresuro=C2=BB koncernas ne l'expr= esuro *"devenar de la Franca"* ma *"devenar > la Franca"*... > > > > 2017-0= 1-21 20:53 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolist= o] : > >> >> >> Danko. >> >> =C2=ABol esas evi= tinda, segun me, pro esar misinterpretebla, precipue parole, >> e fakte me = nultempe lektis od audis tala expresuro.=C2=BB >> >> Certe ni do uzez =C2= =ABvenar de=C2=BB vice =C2=ABdevenar=C2=BB? >> >> Me ofte lektar tala expre= suro en Esperanto. Tre ofte. >> >> On anke trovas =C2=ABde-venar=C2=BB en d= icionarii. Exemple, che Dyer: >> >> *derive:* derivar; (*cf.* de-venar, de-= tirar, recevar). >> >> *proceed:* (*act in a certain way*) (*intr.*) proced= ar; (*continue*) >> durar (*intr.*); (*march*) marchar; (*go forward*) avan= -irar; (*bring >> action*) procesar (kontre ulu); *p. from:* de-venar, vena= r de od ek; >> naskar; havar origino en; (*journey*) irar ek (od, de); *p. = with:* >> dur-igar (ulo); *then he p.ed to:* lore (od, nun) il komencis; *p= .ings:* >> (*way of acting*) procedi; (*legal*) proceduro; (*written report= s*) >> raporti; *the p.ings of the day:* di-ala event-aji. >> >> *de:* (pre= p) (starting point, origin, derivation) la treno de Lyon: the >> train from= Lyons: blinda de nasko: blind from birth; de omna lateri: from >> all side= s; de supre ad infre; from top to bottom; de ta vidpunto: from that >> view= point; komprar de ulu: to buy of someone; arachar de la morto: to >> snatch= from death; malada de febro: sick with (from) fever; (measure, >> quantity= ) unu de li: one of them; un horo de marcho: an hour's walk; >> dek-e-duo d= e ovi: a dozen eggs; tri metri de rubando: three meters of >> ribbon; glaso= de aquo: a glass of water; peco de pano: a piece of bread; el >> esas la m= axim bela de la fratini: she is the most beautiful of the sisters; >> duo d= e rejini: a pair of queens; (after adjectives denoting dimenions, >> size, = contents): ponto longa de du Angla milii: a bridge two English miles >> lon= g; barelo plena de vino: a barrel full of wine; konstrukturo alta de >> dua= dek etaji: a building twenty stories high; (=C2=ABsince=C2=BB, duration of = time). >> N. B. in this sense de-pos is preferable to de alone: me savas lo= de(pos) >> quar dii: I have known it these (since, from) four days; me esa= s hike de du >> monati: I have been here for two months; de(pos) la morto d= i sua spozino: >> since the death of his wife; de kande vu lojas hike? me l= ojas hike de un >> monato: How long (from when) have you lived here? I have= lived here one >> month (I am living here from one month). de pos: since, = after; de longe: >> for a long time past; de kande: since when, how long si= nce; de lore: from >> that time, since then; de pose: from that time, after= wards; de pos ke: >> (conj.) since (that); de nun: from now, henceforth, he= reafter; de sub: from >> under; de dop: from behind. V. exp.: *da, de, di:*= Praktikal regulo por >> selektar inter ta tri prepozicioni esas la sequant= a: Se la senco postulas >> klare l'ideo di l'agento od autoro, uzez *da*; s= e ol postulas klare >> l'ideo di deveno, o di konteno o di quanto, uzez *de= *; en cetera kazi >> (do en omna dubebla) uzez audace *di*; nam olca esas l= a maxim generala >> de la tri, korespondanta a la genitivo; II=E2=80=9433. = On povas generale sequar ica >> regulo (por selektar inter de o di): Uzez d= i kande la sequanta substantivo >> havas artiklo; uzez de kande ol hava nul= a artiklo; (III=E2=80=94624). =E2=80=94 FIS >> >> Ube en Progreso on povas = trovar la debato? >> >> En la *Kompleta Gramatiko* me lektas: >> >> *(1).* = =C2=AB Nia kunfrato ne prizas la regulo, qua igas *transitiva* la >> verbi = kompozita ek verbo *netransitiva* e prepoziciono, quale en-irar, >> ek-irar= ; ed il preferas repetar la prepoziciono. To esas ya permisata, >> sed (ma)= tote superflua, nam en: *me eniras en la chambro*, l'ideo esas >> dufoye e= xpresata. Tote logike, *me eniras la chambro* =3D *me iras en la >> chambro= *. L'=C2=ABequivalo=C2=BB esas =C2=ABperfekta=C2=BB; to ne esas =C2=ABsubti= lajo=C2=BB; la verbo >> divenas transitiva, *absorbante* la prepoziciono ip= sa, qua =C2=ABregas=C2=BB la >> komplemento. (Komparez travidar, trairar, e= .c.) *Progreso*, II, 304, >> noto. >> >> > > --001a1145b04abc89170546a1d344 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, me komprenabis... Me sugestis, vice skribar =C2=ABdeve= nar la Franca=C2=BB, skribar =C2=ABvenar de la Franca=C2=BB tote simple.

On Sat, Jan 21= , 2017 at 4:25 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.c= om> wrote:
=
= =C2=A0

Tu miskomprenis me: mea frazo =C2=ABol esas evitinda, segun me, pro es= ar misinterpretebla, precipue parole, e fakte me nultempe lektis od audis t= ala expresuro=C2=BB koncernas ne l'expresuro "devenar de la Fra= nca" ma "devenar la Franca"...
<= /span>


<= br>
2017-01-21 20:53 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mo= rin gphmorin@gmail.= com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Danko.

=C2=ABol esas evitin= da, segun me, pro esar misinterpretebla, precipue parole, e fakte me nultem= pe lektis od audis tala expresuro.=C2=BB

Certe ni = do uzez =C2=ABvenar de=C2=BB vice =C2=ABdevenar=C2=BB?

Me ofte lektar tala expresuro en Esperanto. Tre ofte.
On anke trovas =C2=ABde-venar=C2=BB en dicionarii. Exemple, ch= e Dyer:

derive: derivar; (cf. <= span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,0)">de-venar, de-tirar, r= ecevar).

proceed: (act in a c= ertain way) (intr.) procedar; (continue) durar (intr.<= /i>); (march) marchar; (go forward) avan-irar; (bring acti= on) procesar (kontre ulu); p. from: de-venar, venar de od ek; naskar; havar origino = en; (journey) irar ek (od, de); p. with: dur-igar (ulo); t= hen he p.ed to: lore (od, nun) il komencis; p.ings: (way of a= cting) procedi; (legal) proceduro; (written reports) rapo= rti; the p.ings of the day: di-ala event-aji.

de: (prep) (starting point, origin, derivation) la tre= no de Lyon: the train from Lyons: blinda de nasko: blind from birth; de omn= a lateri: from all sides; de supre ad infre; from top to bottom; de ta vidp= unto: from that viewpoint; komprar de ulu: to buy of someone; arachar de la= morto: to snatch from death; malada de febro: sick with (from) fever; (mea= sure, quantity) unu de li: one of them; un horo de marcho: an hour's wa= lk; dek-e-duo de ovi: a dozen eggs; tri metri de rubando: three meters of r= ibbon; glaso de aquo: a glass of water; peco de pano: a piece of bread; el = esas la maxim bela de la fratini: she is the most beautiful of the sisters;= duo de rejini: a pair of queens; (after adjectives denoting dimenions, siz= e, contents): ponto longa de du Angla milii: a bridge two English miles lon= g; barelo plena de vino: a barrel full of wine; konstrukturo alta de duadek= etaji: a building twenty stories high; (=C2=ABsince=C2=BB, duration of tim= e). N. B. in this sense de-pos is preferable to de alone: me savas lo de(po= s) quar dii: I have known it these (since, from) four days; me esas hike de= du monati: I have been here for two months; de(pos) la morto di sua spozin= o: since the death of his wife; de kande vu lojas hike? me lojas hike de un= monato: How long (from when) have you lived here? I have lived here one mo= nth (I am living here from one month). de pos: since, after; de longe: for = a long time past; de kande: since when, how long since; de lore: from that = time, since then; de pose: from that time, afterwards; de pos ke: (conj.) s= ince (that); de nun: from now, henceforth, hereafter; de sub: from under; d= e dop: from behind. V. exp.: da, de, di: Praktikal regulo por selekt= ar inter ta tri prepozicioni esas la sequanta: Se la senco postulas klare l= 'ideo di l'agento od autoro, uzez da; se ol postulas klare l'ideo di deveno,= o di konteno o di quanto, uzez de; en cetera kazi (do en omna dubeb= la) uzez audace di; nam olca esas la maxim generala de la tri, kores= pondanta a la genitivo; II=E2=80=9433. On povas generale sequar ica regulo = (por selektar inter de o di): Uzez di kande la sequanta substantivo havas a= rtiklo; uzez de kande ol hava nula artiklo; (III=E2=80=94624). =E2=80=94 FI= S

Ube en Progreso on povas trovar la debato?=

En la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0me lektas:

(1). =C2=AB Nia kunfrato ne prizas la r= egulo, qua igas transitiva la verbi kompozita ek verbo netransiti= va e prepoziciono, quale en-irar, ek-irar; ed il preferas repetar la pr= epoziciono. To esas ya perm= isata, sed (ma) tote superflua, nam en: me eniras en la chambro, l'ideo esas dufoye expresata. Tote logike, me eniras la chambro<= /i> =3D me iras en la chambro. L'=C2=ABequivalo=C2=BB esas =C2= =ABperfekta=C2=BB; to ne esas =C2=ABsubtilajo=C2=BB; la verbo divenas trans= itiva, absorbante la prepoziciono ipsa, qua =C2=ABregas=C2=BB la kom= plemento. (Komparez travidar, trairar, e.c.) Progreso, II, 304, noto= .


<= div style=3D"color:#fff;height:0">
=

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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045d5b100a69d80546a1fba6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bone! Me deziras a tu trovar la tempo. Se esus plusa expliko, forsan Coutur= at skribabus pri lu en la sama artiklo, ka ne? 2017-01-21 16:16 GMT-05:00 = Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogrou= ps.com>: > > > La citita artiklo certe esas da Couturat, nam ol ne esas si= gnatita. La > tono esas ya tre stranja, e por komprenar (ne por aceptar...)= olu, oportus > saveskar quo lore dicesis kontre Ido e lua vortifado en Esp= o-periodali, nam > l'artiklo semblas esar impetuoza reakto a lora kritiki d= a Espisti. Pro to > l'acerba tono ne-aceptinda... > > Malgre ica tre import= anta informo (danko!), me havas plusa expliko, qua > forsan helpos ni kompr= enar vorto-formi quala *kalidoskopo*, *akoluto*, > edc, ma ol esos temo di = futura blogajo... kande me havos tempo! > > > > 2017-01-20 21:37 GMT+00:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kara samideani, >> Yen mea lasta artiklo pri *ev* e= n la vorti Greka. Cafoye, me citas du >> artikli trovita en Progreso. >> >>= https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/linguo-kun-arogo/ >> >> Me esperas, ke ta= du artikli nun bone explikas pro quo ni havas >> =C2=ABnevroso=C2=BB, =C2= =ABnevrito=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevroptero=C2=BB, =C2=ABgli= koso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakoluto=C2=BB, >> =C2=ABkalidoskopo=C2=BB... vice =C2=ABn= euroso=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurito=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABneuroptero= =C2=BB, >> =C2=ABglukoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakolito=C2=BB, =C2=ABkaleidoskopo=C2= =BB, e.c. >> >> Nia linguo ne sempre sequis DEFIRS. >> >> Me nun opinionas,= ke ni debatez pri granda reformo: reformo qua selektus >> sive internacion= eso, sive etimologio. Nam la nuna stando esas tre mala. >> >> Se ni selektu= s internacioneso, ni adoptus: >> *akolito >> aleurono >> *aneurismo >> *apo= neuroso >> *glukoso >> *kaleidoskopo >> *neuralgio >> *neurastenio >> *neur= ito >> *neurologio >> neurono >> *neuroptero >> *neuroso >> *pleuro >> *ple= urito >> pleuronekto >> pleuronektoido >> >> Se ni selektus etimologio, ni = adoptus: >> akoluto (akolouthos, acolythus) >> *alevrono (aleuron) >> anevr= ismo (aneurusma) >> glikoso (gleukos) >> kalidoskopo (kal=C3=B3s + e=C3=AEd= os, calidoscopium) >> nevralgio (ne=C3=BBron + =C3=A1lgos, neuralgia) >> ne= vrastenio (neuro-) >> nevrito (neuro-) >> nevrologio (neuro-) >> *nevrono (= neuro-) >> nevroptero (neuro-) >> nevroso (neuro-) >> plevro (pleura) >> pl= evrito (pleuritis) >> *plevronekto (Pleuronectes) >> *plevronektoido (*plev= ronekt-oido? La "o" trovesas nulaloke...) >> >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gil= les-Philippe >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > --f403045d5b100a69d80546a1fba6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bone! Me deziras a tu trovar la tempo. Se esus plusa expli= ko, forsan Couturat skribabus pri lu en la sama artiklo, ka ne?

2017-01-21 16:16 GMT-05:00 = Gon=C3=A7alo Neves = gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.co= m>:
<= div style=3D"background-color:#fff"> =C2=A0
=
=

La citita a= rtiklo certe esas da Couturat, nam ol ne esas signatita. La tono esas ya tr= e stranja, e por komprenar (ne por aceptar...) olu, oportus saveskar quo lo= re dicesis kontre Ido e lua vortifado en Espo-periodali, nam l'artiklo = semblas esar impetuoza reakto a lora kritiki da Espisti. Pro to l'acerb= a tono ne-aceptinda...

Malgre ica tre importanta informo (danko!), me havas plusa expliko= , qua forsan helpos ni komprenar vorto-formi quala kalidoskopo, a= koluto, edc, ma ol esos temo di futura blogajo... kande me havos tempo!=

=C2=A0

2017-01-20 21:37 GMT+00:00 Gi= lles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.c= om>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara samideani,
Yen mea lasta art= iklo pri ev=C2=A0en la vorti Greka. Cafoye, me citas du artikli trov= ita en Progreso.


Me esperas, k= e ta du artikli nun bone explikas pro quo ni havas =C2=ABnevroso=C2=BB, =C2= =ABnevrito=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevrologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABnevroptero=C2=BB, =C2=ABgli= koso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakoluto=C2=BB, =C2=ABkalidoskopo=C2=BB... vice =C2=ABneur= oso=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurito=C2=BB, =C2=ABneurologio=C2=BB, =C2=ABneuroptero=C2= =BB, =C2=ABglukoso=C2=BB, =C2=ABakolito=C2=BB, =C2=ABkaleidoskopo=C2=BB, e.= c.

Nia linguo ne sempre sequis DEFIRS.
<= br>
Me nun opinionas, ke ni debatez pri granda reformo: reformo q= ua selektus sive internacioneso, sive etimologio. Nam la nuna stando esas t= re mala.

Se ni selektus internacioneso, ni adoptus= :
*akolito
aleurono
*aneurismo
*apo= neuroso
*glukoso
*kaleidoskopo
*neuralgio=
*neurastenio
*neurito
*neurologio
<= div>neurono
*neuroptero
*neuroso
*pleuro
*pleurito
pleuronekto
pleuronektoido
Se ni selektus etimologio, ni adoptus:
akoluto (akol= outhos, acolythus)
*alevrono (aleuron)
anevrismo (aneur= usma)
glikoso (gleukos)
kalidoskopo (kal=C3=B3s + e=C3= =AEdos, calidoscopium)
nevralgio (ne=C3=BBron +=C2=A0=C3=A1lgos, = neuralgia)
nevrastenio (neuro-)
nevrito (neuro-)
<= div>nevrologio (neuro-)
*nevrono (neuro-)
nevroptero (n= euro-)
nevroso (neuro-)
plevro (pleura)
plevr= ito (pleuritis)
*plevronekto (Pleuronectes)
*plevronekt= oido (*plevronekt-oido? La "o" trovesas nulaloke...)
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe



=


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Kara Gonçalo,
 
La vorto "heroeno" adoptesis, forsan inter 2001 e 2003 quale vu supozis, ma me ne savas pro quo ol ne esas en la listo LNV 2ma quan editis Hans.
 
Un avantajo dil vorto esas por evitar miskompreni, forsan rara ma forsan ya desagreabla. Altra avantajo esas por serchar future pri texti qui mencionas heriono o heroini, ma ne heroeno, od inverse.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
P.S. La inundo esas tante granda ke me ne povas mem lektar omna mesaji.
 
 
Gonçalo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:36:27 +0000: 
Kara Tiberio, danko pro tua reakto e, precipue, pro memorigar da me la inkluzeso di *heroeno en SIL. Me konfesas ke, kande me skribis mea antea mesajo pri ica temo, me tote ne memoris ke uldie, en 2008, me traktis ica vorto ed inluzis ol en SIL. Ica verko kontenas cirkume 800 kap-vorti o lexikografiala unaji. Regretinde me ne merkis omna vorti e nun, pos non yari, me ne memoras li omna. Ica vorto ne esas propozita da me. Me simple trovis ol en du fonti, quin lore (ed ankore nun) me judikas kom fidinda (la Germana-Ido lexiko da Ferdinand Möller, imprimita, e la retala Ido-Angla lexiko da Robert Carnaghan) e me nur provizis ol per defino ed AGHIR-tradukuri. Me ne plus memoras ube me cherpis la informo ke la radiko esas «aprobita inter 2001 e 2003». Me supozas ke Robert ipsa informis me pri to, ma hodie, lektinte tua mesajo, me serchis en mea *komputero mea korespondado kun Robert e trovis nula mesajo (sive mea, sive lua) kambiita inter ni, quankam me memoras ed esas certa ke en 2008, ante asumar dum tre kurta tempo la ofico di linguala sekretario, me kambiis pasable multa mesaji kun Robert. Me tote ne savas quo eventis e pro quo ta mesaji efacesis de mea komputero. Me uzas Gmail ja de sat longe, ed ordinare ol esas fidinda e ne efacas mesaji sen ke la uzanto imperas lo. Me regretas lo ed esperas ke Robert konservis kopiuri di nia korespondado.

Tamen la inkluzeso di *heroeno en SIL tote ne impedas duma opiniono-chanjo da me.

Kordiale,

Gonçalo  

From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4941 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 6549 invoked by uid 102); 21 Jan 2017 22:48:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m9.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 22:48:26 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 12015 invoked from network); 21 Jan 2017 22:48:26 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 2017 22:48:26 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: lsKa1roWLDtw2rucFzp.j6CsT2AKRhiJ4uqSd4X_Q7lgIqPx G3lc2h20Mm_Vz87zpMSpkYVPe.XtRwmKuxVuoQXAJ12YmbQQgiabhVws6zi. 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Certe on ne povas dicar =C2=ABamb= i=C2=BB, nam =C2=ABamba=C2=BB esas ja plurala. Do kad on uzez lu tote quale= =C2=ABamba=C5=AD=C2=BB en Esperanto? http://vortaro.net/#amba%C5%AD *kad= il salvesis? Kad Elektro vivas?=E2=80=94Yes, amba vivas* *a vu demarshin e= d a me sufrin vu efektigas, tamen amba esas vana* *pos un dio li amba morto= s* *plu bone esas irar senfilia aden la cielo, kam se amba, la patro e la f= ilio, iras aden la inferno* *ambalatere di el stacis statui* *ambatranchiva= glavo* *kolektar frukti ambamanue* Anke, ka ta remarko da Zamenhof esas a= nke valida en Ido? =C2=ABLa konj-an uzon de *amba=C5=AD* en la frazo *ni l= o=C4=9Das en Londono amba=C5=AD en somero k en vintro* mi trovas tute ne ap= robinda=C2=BB skribis Z.; oni diru: *=E2=80=98=E2=80=98kiel en somero, tiel= en vintro,* a=C5=AD *=C2=ABne nur=E2=80=A6 sed anka=C5=AD=E2=80=A6=C2=BB*.= En Ido: =C2=ABLa konjugala uzon di *amba* en la frazo *ni lojas en Londo= n amba en somero ed en vintro* me judikas kom tote ne aprobinda=C2=BB skrib= is Z.; on dicez: *"quale en somero, tale en vintro,* o *=C2=ABne nur=E2=80= =A6 ma anke=E2=80=A6=C2=BB*. On ne povas konsultar Couturat o de Beaufront= , nam li repulsis ta vorto=E2=80=A6 --f403045eadda64282d0546a290c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kad on povas derivar de =C2=ABamba=C2=BB? Certe on ne pova= s dicar =C2=ABambi=C2=BB, nam =C2=ABamba=C2=BB esas ja plurala. Do kad on u= zez lu tote quale =C2=ABamba=C5=AD=C2=BB en Esperanto?

<= a href=3D"http://vortaro.net/#amba%C5%AD">http://vortaro.net/#amba%C5%AD

kad il salvesis? Kad Elektro vivas?= =E2=80=94Yes, amba vivas
a vu demarshin ed a me sufrin vu = efektigas, tamen amba esas vana
pos un dio li amba mortos<= /i>
plu bone esas irar senfilia aden la cielo, kam se amba, la= patro e la filio, iras aden la inferno
ambalatere di= el stacis statui
ambatranchiva glavo
kol= ektar frukti ambamanue

Anke, ka ta remar= ko da Zamenhof esas anke valida en Ido?

=C2=ABLa k= onj-an uzon de amba=C5=AD en la frazo ni lo=C4=9Das en Londono am= ba=C5=AD en somero k en vintro mi trovas tute ne aprobinda=C2=BB skribi= s Z.; oni diru: =E2=80=98=E2=80=98kiel en somero, tiel en vintro, a= =C5=AD =C2=ABne nur=E2=80=A6 sed anka=C5=AD=E2=80=A6=C2=BB.

En Ido:

=C2=ABLa konjugala uzon d= i amba=C2=A0en la frazo ni lojas en London amba en somero ed en v= intro=C2=A0me judikas kom tote ne aprobinda=C2=BB skribis Z.; on dicez:= "quale en somero, tale en vintro,=C2=A0o =C2=ABne nur=E2=80= =A6 ma anke=E2=80=A6=C2=BB.

On ne povas = konsultar Couturat o de Beaufront, nam li repulsis ta vorto=E2=80=A6
<= /div> --f403045eadda64282d0546a290c5-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4942 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 3583 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 00:10:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.37) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 00:10:53 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 26065 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 00:10:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq6.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 00:10:53 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 132gjEkWLDtT2_sI2kspcFnslZXIshBBhCKS6OahGOIXM40k fB.aSwkGS46HVtSDB.lJ86ymg6v1VzUDTc.K4SQWDQXOjDK__9ttVEmFOlRe tosmoWEqLRAmwyR4kQkL_OXGqRLJFUGbmwSJh8txxfNHqNPH7MZTkMT3Ny5K D6X.D69W_lQ_LGXaVxh.c_YBL1XZHkwCBxzRHzTYGKlg3s50thwSQfs1K4B9 ltfMTp_TjXj_xs2STGa5qh4gBKDfzPWQ4f9ohMDuxLGH_E.ynU3ud14TuNt. tGtpZycBF2kgFkYWaCeMFCjb.2wMIxFvPc1UnqYoSiv86d4oC6MqtHb9q2R5 OOqealkq2gPF_9e1pW9o5xyYoritaLEin_GX3KmYDJhduaEZxPM66_ld0Rbc 7irtRJ4dNDcOYTOkFQgVLND.oZDuQ4f0OxxpRQCdrgYBF5Wwl_s6EdsU71LH MNotki0HKdZqGZRmh3lBFKGqDrQ7y2O2Af60GzeULlsBgrSiDWXMtjM0hgyd _vE7mB3M6NLs2cJ5BR8m7RtDPfhwv0Y2wxxoeTz.aGqha1fhgf7g16Yfa42u fx_N5UMxLwczIUbPvn5zvFraePh6P2Z_IJUPiHivPT3ObBlzdJ9y5jxKKOQu bCrXLxqNsPc5AgSxOakDuyRLm_fPPzqW1ENTkj5lEkl_qaVxXJcJz601vntd GHCwqeBtHwAn444lzKaguhX_8ncxLJfbKAeOC9y_hsx0fLL8k__h9d39Ee4x BV3xvqJpfucCAKJ5wPDpoUnmLYTJti5rrtXXpL86D.TCYi_Sk_HAlja1Vc.. Ck7NOoQQPbgtO8K0xPYIYri3iKmgl04CHi3o02kfFWoccHOVlHKDFWvekA3c warhmW3DtawSudDBGEFJeJxwgb_QdH4gVdyHpes5xFwTjSoc6TvPBXEfZFty 0yY8nk1sxHF2rL9GLTJI3oZeTYBIs5MVp_0mpivbOBwueOX.k__0Cooi4HKW WlGm.olqK6puPNJsaJtWdlmQzdwaFMVHe8MyJJjorkcnV3sPY5GKpDUKfcli 3P_RZ6EHmC8MAZgFN7D16eTr.SNM2BQ0QpywqxMatITZBgDD.JWf0PfI48Od GLGzUfihqyOtb9itzBTVfsmS5CTQiM9RsPzwGXi7nP5RURtlKm4XiQ7rXQSN dLOGcyR_47to_RZs6EIFElfYYJdsjhP2ke1dToCXe5W_89i2Ryp6hhY52lfK 2w-- Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f44.google.com) (74.125.82.44) by mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 00:10:53 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f44.google.com with SMTP id c85so85081462wmi.1 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:10:52 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=5sXQ+ACW1lO8wHpQj0KXzMVkX5OroArA/SI0n/MRcCM=; b=N3gQsjQTuKGvXHcucJHZzl7M+QAGvMPCunWDWTDlakVdmIIXgRvc7Z9nHD6u98dqaG 6b+zEeUETLt/QL+sbdFDrsYaSiuULQTcMRk29+KCrDIj8ar3LSaqkZnp8o14padZmAgE pxLTu/c2gIzCo9sa0Dp8X9jFCWLWrNIiNGm2I7JYtR8paIUWWJnJk/8XydZu386f181C G06Bc/Lgyt/5bQUJ1EMpYT98IwpFupbCFTFgvTtXmdP40nXw6Uc3HIOzcavQ3fvfssUX S2JjQ8LHB6XfxC0EbPdRJK4UlyUkSPf2RoeP51U9P3N2gUKH/agNNTkuqh5Pwq3t/RE8 G4Ug== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKFIEfVuOaOEix3yGs0KDLniVcvTqEs3IXr/3p0hNGpgLjfAFOd3kJrlKSvknFMI/3NRAuJaFVKucAYQQ== X-Received: by 10.223.151.99 with SMTP id r90mr16846201wrb.183.1485043368094; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:02:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:02:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 19:02:47 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045d5b106e73840546a39ad2 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?wqtkZXBvc8K7IG8gwqtkZSBwb3PCuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045d5b106e73840546a39ad2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara samideani, En la defino di =C2=ABde=C2=BB da Dyer, on trovas plura =C2= =ABde-pos=C2=BB. Tamen, en la Eroro-Listo lu remplasigis omna ta =C2=ABde-= pos=C2=BB da =C2=ABde pos=C2=BB, apud =C2=ABde-lore=C2=BB (de lore), =C2=AB= de-pose=C2=BB (de pose) e =C2=ABde-pos ke=C2=BB (de pos ke). Ka to signifi= kas ke =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB esas eroro? Ka to signifikas ke =C2=ABde pos=C2= =BB esas plu justa? Pro quo lu korektigis li? Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-= Philippe --f403045d5b106e73840546a39ad2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara samideani,
En la defino di =C2=ABde=C2=BB d= a Dyer, on trovas plura =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB.

Tamen, en la= Eroro-Listo lu remplasigis omna ta =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB da =C2=ABde pos=C2= =BB, apud =C2=ABde-lore=C2=BB (de lore), =C2=ABde-pose=C2=BB (de pose) e = =C2=ABde-pos ke=C2=BB (de pos ke).

Ka to signifika= s ke =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB esas eroro? Ka to signifikas ke =C2=ABde pos=C2=BB = esas plu justa? Pro quo lu korektigis li?

Kun kord= iala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe
--f403045d5b106e73840546a39ad2-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4943 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 30698 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 00:58:25 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 00:58:25 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 19045 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 00:58:25 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 00:58:25 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.179 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 2IEWLbsWLDu.nfUIaR7C3pcfu.eHy7.kssJsAtll7ZswgBbs FsIzla8KGPRtFKV1sr_GTZhF2NTs4avpFUtvL9klJUlWNXCrUD8RhPB0P3tj R1XwBe40zO5lz2UsiyjuRRLxD2E9ALfFDlYiffpX295Zsdy3iu1Aq205FCCD U5FfKZ.tNVU32LnD_ZLHQ.hR7jygQWYdU3eMSNyEajIw.nOR2K9MMMSrRcjP u41.67T.QP9J_7tczZQenLAHwMBNESMPK7RnZVb.nGiFjXMcCCGHeCVGNrFj .FSG2JieClGc7JV5gQwIYjN_ukyK6BT1S1mqDPwU8EnpjHkFsQpBDvJWq.g4 L2.IhWvH7zdEQ0smrCmSQYA5R4tHZ9wq7oN7lEWMOsvsZ9vhW7G4ecKOAsC5 QpggzfHlXbjjcip8j6F4CGq5H.lpqEZArMbNE_9DyFj7Ig75UxfjhjjRX6Vz 9BV0n918mSFGMMUc26BMI4OmiBjygzpeCGhzwWTqZbD96Lw3Pdn4EeGXKzKW FjXCm5uqOUVOLJINVFzZX2lpSILFbajfXRCC2JtweTRIk7B1ycSfQysitnCQ Z7mmFfELlA2p5W.0pTFZrOF04Toxvz9A7Seg5LZMoXqdvvt4Igr99v9wqEj9 izyys.3nrZ1C2aikKZIUFgu1jqL3BCjLtcJni_N8KU9zCSlf4CzlZYZFJLM5 ruZj7uY9m05tw4iPsMOqGslGoyR.dOINe4ApoDcZ4hjA8VvOqaLULMvzdH2n RSeW1GR09cJVvGr5jCEi_C3ZOWBQJSFEY6AxJDDta7688KbsSUqpDN2nwP6C jNaC6S8PvrpcsDcDPBNAwfhs3tc_8CQBNk4TjO.nsonef8qDa8XCVH08GMat gKue8UQvOg_Cmf6PtcIu2Oh5JYMuWoAWMvoLjPjvI0gGW4_fv8yDLSNTuFjq bX_5f8WzTfrjzZmTWTtZMsPzGHlU78ZW0ppgWE_J8sn620ssbjZiuKSHeUxo k9edwTZnyYwOAQk7554dtkDY5htJXg8bWm8YQuszilScRopytZBMQRcaC1Ia nNv3Ko8RGqADslMzxXFU9DdlzCvoXmc4OwQ7tqsP.xT_6qB0FvLJrsAM21Lz jHh9MY2banBxeoK5A6_ZHocXI_hipsacO0o9_SehBSNa0mdOk26610988pdK b0xLPoqx4lGoezrlxEJQwX7le4GBvw-- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f179.google.com) (209.85.217.179) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 00:58:25 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f179.google.com with SMTP id i68so87949169uad.0 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:58:24 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=mDa1b0Zld2ZZDD0rmvqJr6htJV7pU47D06v6h+qVdOo=; b=cloPo60LDAMbGJKPwmTRTKepX+efmZqR3bWbVwkr6j7C/ltsloJKD+Xm+z64FnVeqT /pI8UlvuXDtXYrc/zETDUyCeYteuDq5/gzKTdoK6YtHGc2xhSkYbs5Ar1pIErtUZL0bt wSv0zQExqB22P+jMxNUD8yMI4fzlkIdc1EvEHzrwchewz5PTM2K2oOHSShddLL8w3ho8 ND4Lbkp3teugpUZZGNxahwg0lCm0RngCLkNCLMyhH4w96Yw/kZCO0Vx6IrrbikxPwwEC zO1igOtMaptzwmPZmBHRxvXfUzh9Ae/KM36hMxbxvjWS7+n8tKrxrBN6hx31zF8ebJw8 AasQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLSCMKcceg+lPhuaIYsAegJ3oPfEibRVLN/S5x3n0Max31t66mzDiLcND/zoqFUb0Dj3SLqjR69YjTKuw== X-Received: by 10.159.35.52 with SMTP id 49mr9835593uae.113.1485046704059; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:58:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 16:58:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2017121222340.873760@D9B5MN3J> References: <2017121222340.873760@D9B5MN3J> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 00:58:22 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d15ee453cfe0546a46101 Subject: Re: [linguo] Heroeno X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=Vi2QySLDu3kE_CTgNuhjsx79xGADnN8yMGu63jDsN9e1xhWQ5uWBRQ X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a113d15ee453cfe0546a46101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Danko, Robert, pro la expliko. Kordiale, GN 2017-01-21 22:23 GMT+00:00 '= Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: = > > > Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, > > La vorto "heroeno" adoptesis, forsan inter 200= 1 e 2003 quale vu supozis, > ma me ne savas pro quo ol ne esas en la listo = LNV 2ma quan editis Hans. > > Un avantajo dil vorto esas por evitar miskomp= reni, forsan rara ma forsan > ya desagreabla. Altra avantajo esas por serch= ar future pri texti qui > mencionas heriono o heroini, ma ne heroeno, od in= verse. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > P.S. La inundo esas tante granda ke me= ne povas mem lektar omna mesaji. > > --001a113d15ee453cfe0546a46101 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danko, Robert, pro la expliko.<= br>

Kordiale,

GN

2017-01-21 22:23 GMT+00:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,<= /div>
=C2=A0
La vorto "heroeno&q= uot; adoptesis, forsan inter 2001 e 2003 quale vu supozis, ma me ne savas p= ro quo ol ne esas en la listo LNV 2ma quan editis Hans.
=C2=A0
Un avantajo dil vorto esas por evita= r miskompreni, forsan rara ma forsan ya desagreabla. Altra avantajo esas po= r serchar future pri texti qui mencionas heriono o heroini, ma ne heroeno, = od inverse.
=C2=A0
=
Kordi= ale,
Robert C.
= =C2=A0
P.S. La inundo esas tante granda ke me ne povas mem lektar omna mesa= ji.
=C2=A0

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Segun Dyer, on trovas lo ya en *Progreso*, III, p. 28: *Ula* n= e indikas kompleta nedetermineso (quan *irga* expresus plu juste), ma mi-de= termineso. *Ula* povas anke ludar la rolo di la nedefinita artiklo, se (o k= ande) on trovas ica necesa. Ex.: Me stacas avan la biblioteko di amiko (me = ne dicas: di ula amiko, nam me pensas (pri) nula amiko partikulare o prefer= e); me dicas a lu: =C2=ABMe deziras libro=C2=BB. To signifikas: =C2=ABMe de= ziras lektar, donez a me (irga) libro=C2=BB. Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe dezir= as *ula* libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara li= bro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu exac= te, pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas l= =E2=80=99ideo plu o min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di li= bro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, = quan me povas definar. Nu, me serchis en *Le Petit Robert* la defino di = =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB e me trovis nur quar senci posibla: [1.] Nepreciza, de= sfacila fixigar. *Esis ibe ula nombro de homi. El restos dum ula tempo. Til= ula grado* [N.B. ulgrade?]*.* [2.] (Atenuante l'ideo di nedetermineso). *N= ecesesis ula kurajo* [N.B. on trovas =C2=ABkelka kurajo=C2=BB en Wikivortar= o], kurajo. *Persono di ula evo* [N.B. on trovas =C2=ABkelke evoza=C2=BB en= Wikivortaro], ne plus tre yuna, e ne *di evo certa* (granda; olda). *Lua = =C2=ABlucideso certa e lua kelka humuro=C2=BB *(J. Sternberg) [N.B. me natu= rale judikas =C2=ABula=C2=BB tante stranja en ca kazo, ke me tradukis per = =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB]. [3.] (pluralo) Uli meze di altri. *Ula populi. En ula l= andi. En ula foyi* [N.B. ulfoye?]. [4.] Uzesas avan nomo di persono signifi= kante desprizo, desestimo o nesavo. *=C2=ABMe audis plurfoye, ke on vokis u= la Stefanus=C2=BB* (D. Boulanger). Nu, la senco (2) ja semblas rezervita a= la vorto =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB, se ni fidez la Wikivortaro. La cetero, segun m= e, juste sequas la exempli donita en *Progreso* e mem sequas vorti quin on = trovas en dicionarii (uli, ulgrade, ulfoye, e.c.). Nu, pos konsiderir to, = me ne savas en qua ek ta senci on remplasigez =C2=ABula=C2=BB da =C2=ABcert= ena=C2=BB. Kad on povas dicar a me, en qua ek ta quar senci on uzez =C2=ABc= ertena=C2=BB? O ka =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ne equivalas =C2=AB(un) certain=C2= =BB en la Franca, kontredicante la plura dicionarii qui dicas lo kontrea? --001a1144403a3dfe1c0546a46db9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Itere, me sempre kredas komprenar =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ma p= ose kredas ne komprenar lu.

Segun Dyer, on trovas lo ya = en Progreso, III, p. 28:

Ula ne indi= kas kompleta nedetermineso (quan irga expresus plu juste), ma mi-det= ermineso. Ula povas anke ludar la rolo di la nedefinita artiklo, se = (o kande) on trovas ica necesa. Ex.: Me stacas avan la biblioteko di amiko = (me ne dicas: di ula amiko, nam me pensas (pri) nula amiko partikulare o pr= efere); me dicas a lu: =C2=ABMe deziras libro=C2=BB. To signifikas: =C2=ABM= e deziras lektar, donez a me (irga) libro=C2=BB. Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe d= eziras ula libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar parti= kulara libro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar= plu exacte, pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen = havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime= , di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB= temo, quan me povas definar.

Nu, me serchis e= n Le Petit Robert=C2=A0la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB e me trovis = nur quar senci posibla:

[1.] Nepreciza, desfacila = fixigar. Esis ibe ula nombro de homi. El restos dum ula tempo. Til ula g= rado=C2=A0[N.B. ulgrade?].
[2.] (Atenuante l'ideo = di nedetermineso). Necesesis ula kurajo=C2=A0[N.B. on trovas =C2=ABk= elka kurajo=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], kurajo. Persono di ula evo=C2=A0[= N.B. on trovas =C2=ABkelke evoza=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], ne plus tre yuna, e= ne di evo certa=C2=A0(granda; olda). Lua =C2=ABlucideso certa e = lua kelka humuro=C2=BB=C2=A0(J. Sternberg) [N.B. me naturale judikas = =C2=ABula=C2=BB tante stranja en ca kazo, ke me tradukis per =C2=ABkelka=C2= =BB].
[3.] (pluralo) Uli meze di altri. Ula populi. En ula lan= di. En ula foyi=C2=A0[N.B. ulfoye?].
[4.] Uzesas avan nomo di= persono signifikante desprizo, desestimo o nesavo. =C2=ABMe audis plurf= oye, ke on vokis ula Stefanus=C2=BB=C2=A0(D. Boulanger).

=
Nu, la senco (2) ja semblas rezervita a la vorto =C2=ABkelka=C2= =BB, se ni fidez la Wikivortaro.
La cetero, segun me, juste sequa= s la exempli donita en Progreso=C2=A0e mem sequas vorti quin on trov= as en dicionarii (uli, ulgrade, ulfoye, e.c.).

Nu,= pos konsiderir to, me ne savas en qua ek ta senci on remplasigez =C2=ABula= =C2=BB da =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB. Kad on povas dicar a me, en qua ek ta quar s= enci on uzez =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB? O ka =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ne equivalas =C2= =AB(un) certain=C2=BB en la Franca, kontredicante la plura dicionarii qui d= icas lo kontrea?
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Trovez un= exemplo (ne da vu!) en qua miskompreno povas eventar. Esas preske absurda = trovar =C2=ABheroin/o=C2=BB e =C2=ABhero/in/o=C2=BB en la sama frazo. *Alt= ra avantajo esas por serchar future pri texti qui mencionas heriono o heroi= ni, ma ne heroeno, od inverse.* Nu! me povis tre, tre, tre facile serchar = omna uzi di =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB e =C2=ABheroini=C2=BB en Idolisto e Linguol= isto. Li esas tante rare uzata (kontenas =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB nur quar mesaj= i en la tota historio di Idolisto!) Ta argumento esas certe nevalida. On S= at, Jan 21, 2017 at 5:23 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Kara Gon=C3=A7alo, > > La vorto "h= eroeno" adoptesis, forsan inter 2001 e 2003 quale vu supozis, > ma me ne sa= vas pro quo ol ne esas en la listo LNV 2ma quan editis Hans. > > Un avantaj= o dil vorto esas por evitar miskompreni, forsan rara ma forsan > ya desagre= abla. Altra avantajo esas por serchar future pri texti qui > mencionas heri= ono o heroini, ma ne heroeno, od inverse. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > P.S= . La inundo esas tante granda ke me ne povas mem lektar omna mesaji. > > > = Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sat, 21 Jan 2017 > 17= :36:27 +0000: > Kara Tiberio, danko pro tua reakto e, precipue, pro memorig= ar da me la > inkluzeso di **heroeno* en SIL. Me konfesas ke, kande me skri= bis mea > antea mesajo pri ica temo, me tote ne memoris ke uldie, en 2008, = me traktis > ica vorto ed inluzis ol en SIL. Ica verko kontenas cirkume 800= kap-vorti o > lexikografiala unaji. Regretinde me ne merkis omna vorti e n= un, pos non > yari, me ne memoras li omna. Ica vorto ne esas propozita da m= e. Me simple > trovis ol en du fonti, quin lore (ed ankore nun) me judikas = kom fidinda (la > Germana-Ido lexiko da Ferdinand M=C3=B6ller, imprimita, e= la retala Ido-Angla > lexiko da Robert Carnaghan) e me nur provizis ol per= defino ed > AGHIR-tradukuri. Me ne plus memoras ube me cherpis la informo = ke la radiko > esas =C2=ABaprobita inter 2001 e 2003=C2=BB. Me supozas ke R= obert ipsa informis me > pri to, ma hodie, lektinte tua mesajo, me serchis = en mea *komputero mea > korespondado kun Robert e trovis nula mesajo (sive = mea, sive lua) kambiita > inter ni, quankam me memoras ed esas certa ke en = 2008, ante asumar dum tre > kurta tempo la ofico di linguala sekretario, me= kambiis pasable multa > mesaji kun Robert. Me tote ne savas quo eventis e = pro quo ta mesaji > efacesis de mea komputero. Me uzas Gmail ja de sat long= e, ed ordinare ol > esas fidinda e ne efacas mesaji sen ke la uzanto impera= s lo. Me regretas lo > ed esperas ke Robert konservis kopiuri di nia koresp= ondado. > > Tamen la inkluzeso di* *heroeno* en SIL tote ne impedas duma > = opiniono-chanjo da me. > > Kordiale, > > Gon=C3=A7alo > > > --001a1145b04aaf7a550546a48f47 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ube esas la oficala anunco di la oficaligo?

Un avantajo dil vorto esas por evitar miskompreni, forsa= n rara ma forsan ya desagreabla.

Ha= ! Trovez un exemplo (ne da vu!) en qua miskompreno povas eventar. Esas pres= ke absurda trovar =C2=ABheroin/o=C2=BB e =C2=ABhero/in/o=C2=BB en la sama f= razo.

Altra avantajo esas por serchar fu= ture pri texti qui mencionas heriono o heroini, ma ne heroeno, od inverse.<= /i>

Nu! me povis tre, tre, tre facile serchar omna = uzi di =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB e =C2=ABheroini=C2=BB en Idolisto e Linguolisto.= Li esas tante rare uzata (kontenas =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB nur quar mesaji en = la tota historio di Idolisto!) Ta argumento esas certe nevalida.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 a= t 5:23 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@aven= ue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com><= /span> wrote:
=C2=A0=
=

Kara Gon=C3=A7alo,
=C2=A0
La vorto "heroeno" adoptesis, forsan inter 20= 01 e 2003 quale vu supozis, ma me ne savas pro quo ol ne esas en la listo L= NV 2ma quan editis Hans.
=C2=A0
Un avantajo dil vorto esas por evitar miskompreni, forsan rara ma f= orsan ya desagreabla. Altra avantajo esas por serchar future pri texti qui = mencionas heriono o heroini, ma ne heroeno, od inverse.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0
P.S. La inundo esas tante = granda ke me ne povas mem lektar omna mesaji.
=C2=A0
= =C2=A0
Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:36:27 +00= 00:=C2=A0
Kara Tiberio,= danko pro tua reakto e, precipue, pro memorigar da me la inkluzeso di *= heroeno en SIL. Me konfesas ke, kande me skribis mea antea mesajo pri i= ca temo, me tote ne memoris ke uldie, en 2008, me traktis ica vorto ed inlu= zis ol en SIL. Ica verko kontenas cirkume 800 kap-vorti o lexikografiala un= aji. Regretinde me ne merkis omna vorti e nun, pos non yari, me ne memoras = li omna. Ica vorto ne esas propozita da me. Me simple trovis ol en du fonti= , quin lore (ed ankore nun) me judikas kom fidinda (la Germana-Ido lexiko d= a Ferdinand M=C3=B6ller, imprimita, e la retala Ido-Angla lexiko da Robert = Carnaghan) e me nur provizis ol per defino ed AGHIR-tradukuri. Me ne plus m= emoras ube me cherpis la informo ke la radiko esas =C2=ABaprobita inter 200= 1 e 2003=C2=BB. Me supozas ke Robert ipsa informis me pri to, ma hodie, lek= tinte tua mesajo, me serchis en mea *komputero mea korespondado kun Robert = e trovis nula mesajo (sive mea, sive lua) kambiita inter ni, quankam me mem= oras ed esas certa ke en 2008, ante asumar dum tre kurta tempo la ofico di = linguala sekretario, me kambiis pasable multa mesaji kun Robert. Me tote ne= savas quo eventis e pro quo ta mesaji efacesis de mea komputero. Me uzas G= mail ja de sat longe, ed ordinare ol esas fidinda e ne efacas mesaji sen ke= la uzanto imperas lo. Me regretas lo ed esperas ke Robert konservis kopiur= i di nia korespondado.

Tamen la inkluzeso di *heroeno en SIL = tote ne impedas duma opiniono-chanjo da me.

Kordiale,

Gon=C3= =A7alo =C2=A0

=

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La senco di *certena*, se= gun mea judiko, korespondas preske exakte al triesma senco di *certa* en Es= peranto. 2017-01-22 1:01 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.co= m [linguolisto] : > > > Itere, me sempre kred= as komprenar =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ma pose kredas ne komprenar lu. > > Segun = Dyer, on trovas lo ya en *Progreso*, III, p. 28: > > *Ula* ne indikas kompl= eta nedetermineso (quan *irga* expresus plu juste), > ma mi-determineso. *U= la* povas anke ludar la rolo di la nedefinita > artiklo, se (o kande) on tr= ovas ica necesa. Ex.: Me stacas avan la > biblioteko di amiko (me ne dicas:= di ula amiko, nam me pensas (pri) nula > amiko partikulare o prefere); me = dicas a lu: =C2=ABMe deziras libro=C2=BB. To > signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras= lektar, donez a me (irga) libro=C2=BB. Ma se me dicas: > =C2=ABMe deziras = *ula* libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara > lib= ro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu exact= e, > pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas l= =E2=80=99ideo plu o > min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di = libro apartenanta ad > =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB te= mo, quan me povas definar. > > Nu, me serchis en *Le Petit Robert* la defin= o di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB e me trovis > nur quar senci posibla: > > [1.] Nep= reciza, desfacila fixigar. *Esis ibe ula nombro de homi. El > restos dum ul= a tempo. Til ula grado* [N.B. ulgrade?]*.* > [2.] (Atenuante l'ideo di nede= termineso). *Necesesis ula kurajo* [N.B. on > trovas =C2=ABkelka kurajo=C2= =BB en Wikivortaro], kurajo. *Persono di ula evo* [N.B. > on trovas =C2=ABk= elke evoza=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], ne plus tre yuna, e ne *di evo > certa* (= granda; olda). *Lua =C2=ABlucideso certa e lua kelka humuro=C2=BB *(J. > St= ernberg) [N.B. me naturale judikas =C2=ABula=C2=BB tante stranja en ca kazo= , ke me > tradukis per =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB]. > [3.] (pluralo) Uli meze di alt= ri. *Ula populi. En ula landi. En ula foyi* [N.B. > ulfoye?]. > [4.] Uzesas= avan nomo di persono signifikante desprizo, desestimo o > nesavo. *=C2=ABM= e audis plurfoye, ke on vokis ula Stefanus=C2=BB* (D. Boulanger). > > Nu, l= a senco (2) ja semblas rezervita a la vorto =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB, se ni fidez = la > Wikivortaro. > La cetero, segun me, juste sequas la exempli donita en = *Progreso* e mem > sequas vorti quin on trovas en dicionarii (uli, ulgrade,= ulfoye, e.c.). > > Nu, pos konsiderir to, me ne savas en qua ek ta senci o= n remplasigez =C2=ABula=C2=BB > da =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB. Kad on povas dicar = a me, en qua ek ta quar senci on uzez > =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB? O ka =C2=ABcer= tena=C2=BB ne equivalas =C2=AB(un) certain=C2=BB en la Franca, > kontredica= nte la plura dicionarii qui dicas lo kontrea? > --001a113ed25876cfe90546a4b341 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gilles-Philippe, serchez en PIV= la triesma senco di certa e lektez ibe la exempli e, precipue, la remarko qua sequas olci. La senc= o di certena, segun mea judiko, korespondas preske exakte al triesma= senco di certa en Esper= anto.

2017-01-22 1:01 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Itere, me = sempre kredas komprenar =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ma pose kredas ne komprenar lu.=

Segun Dyer, on trovas lo ya en Progreso, III, p.= 28:

Ula ne indikas kompleta nedetermineso = (quan irga expresus plu juste), ma mi-determineso. Ula povas = anke ludar la rolo di la nedefinita artiklo, se (o kande) on trovas ica nec= esa. Ex.: Me stacas avan la biblioteko di amiko (me ne dicas: di ula amiko,= nam me pensas (pri) nula amiko partikulare o prefere); me dicas a lu: =C2= =ABMe deziras libro=C2=BB. To signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar, donez a = me (irga) libro=C2=BB. Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro=C2= =BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara libro (konocata da = me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu exacte, pro ke me obl= iviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o= min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di libro apartenanta ad = =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas defin= ar.

Nu, me serchis en Le Petit Robert= =C2=A0la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB e me trovis nur quar senci posibla:<= /div>

[1.] Nepreciza, desfacila fixigar. Esis ibe ula= nombro de homi. El restos dum ula tempo. Til ula grado=C2=A0[N.B. ulgr= ade?].
[2.] (Atenuante l'ideo di nedetermineso). Ne= cesesis ula kurajo=C2=A0[N.B. on trovas =C2=ABkelka kurajo=C2=BB en Wik= ivortaro], kurajo. Persono di ula evo=C2=A0[N.B. on trovas =C2=ABkel= ke evoza=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], ne plus tre yuna, e ne di evo certa= =C2=A0(granda; olda). Lua =C2=ABlucideso certa e lua kelka humuro=C2=BB= =C2=A0(J. Sternberg) [N.B. me naturale judikas =C2=ABula=C2=BB tante st= ranja en ca kazo, ke me tradukis per =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB].
[3.] (pl= uralo) Uli meze di altri. Ula populi. En ula landi. En ula foyi=C2= =A0[N.B. ulfoye?].
[4.] Uzesas avan nomo di persono signifikante = desprizo, desestimo o nesavo. =C2=ABMe audis plurfoye, ke on vokis ula S= tefanus=C2=BB=C2=A0(D. Boulanger).

Nu, la senc= o (2) ja semblas rezervita a la vorto =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB, se ni fidez la Wik= ivortaro.
La cetero, segun me, juste sequas la exempli donita en = Progreso=C2=A0e mem sequas vorti quin on trovas en dicionarii (uli, = ulgrade, ulfoye, e.c.).

Nu, pos konsiderir to, me = ne savas en qua ek ta senci on remplasigez =C2=ABula=C2=BB da =C2=ABcertena= =C2=BB. Kad on povas dicar a me, en qua ek ta quar senci on uzez =C2=ABcert= ena=C2=BB? O ka =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ne equivalas =C2=AB(un) certain=C2=BB e= n la Franca, kontredicante la plura dicionarii qui dicas lo kontrea?
<= /div>


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Pri pluraleso di *amba* tu forsan esas jus= ta, ma me memoras uzir plurfoye la formo *ambi*, quaze instintale, ne konci= ante pri lua duopla pluraleso, o forsan nur pro la deziro emfazar lua plura= leso. Pri la vorto *amba=C5=AD* me skribis yena studiuro en 2003: http://= esperanto-ondo.ru/L-neves1.htm (la fotografuro esas tote ne-aktuala!) 2= 017-01-21 22:48 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguol= isto] : > > > Kad on povas derivar de =C2=ABa= mba=C2=BB? Certe on ne povas dicar =C2=ABambi=C2=BB, nam =C2=ABamba=C2=BB >= esas ja plurala. Do kad on uzez lu tote quale =C2=ABamba=C5=AD=C2=BB en Es= peranto? > > http://vortaro.net/#amba%C5%AD > > *kad il salvesis? Kad Elekt= ro vivas?=E2=80=94Yes, amba vivas* > *a vu demarshin ed a me sufrin vu efek= tigas, tamen amba esas vana* > *pos un dio li amba mortos* > *plu bone esas= irar senfilia aden la cielo, kam se amba, la patro e la > filio, iras aden= la inferno* > *ambalatere di el stacis statui* > *ambatranchiva glavo* > *= kolektar frukti ambamanue* > > Anke, ka ta remarko da Zamenhof esas anke va= lida en Ido? > > =C2=ABLa konj-an uzon de *amba=C5=AD* en la frazo *ni lo= =C4=9Das en Londono amba=C5=AD en > somero k en vintro* mi trovas tute ne a= probinda=C2=BB skribis Z.; oni diru: *=E2=80=98=E2=80=98kiel > en somero, t= iel en vintro,* a=C5=AD *=C2=ABne nur=E2=80=A6 sed anka=C5=AD=E2=80=A6=C2= =BB*. > > En Ido: > > =C2=ABLa konjugala uzon di *amba* en la frazo *ni loj= as en London amba en > somero ed en vintro* me judikas kom tote ne aprobind= a=C2=BB skribis Z.; on > dicez: *"quale en somero, tale en vintro,* o *=C2= =ABne nur=E2=80=A6 ma anke=E2=80=A6=C2=BB*. > > On ne povas konsultar Coutu= rat o de Beaufront, nam li repulsis ta vorto=E2=80=A6 > > > --001a113d15ee55b8970546a4e5e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Yes, amba uzesas qu= ale amba=C5=AD en Esperanto, e la remarko da Zamenhof certe esas val= ida anke en Ido. Pri pluraleso di amba tu forsan esas justa, ma me m= emoras uzir plurfoye la formo ambi, quaze instintale, ne konciante p= ri lua duopla pluraleso, o forsan nur pro la deziro emfazar lua pluraleso.<= br>
Pri la vorto <= i>amba=C5=AD me skribis yena studiuro en 2003:
=
(la fotografuro esas tote ne-ak= tuala!)


=
2017-01-21 22:48 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe M= orin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kad on povas deri= var de =C2=ABamba=C2=BB? Certe on ne povas dicar =C2=ABambi=C2=BB, nam =C2= =ABamba=C2=BB esas ja plurala. Do kad on uzez lu tote quale =C2=ABamba=C5= =AD=C2=BB en Esperanto?


kad il salvesis? Kad Elektro vivas?=E2=80=94Yes, = amba vivas
a vu demarshin ed a me sufrin vu efektigas, tam= en amba esas vana
pos un dio li amba mortos
= plu bone esas irar senfilia aden la cielo, kam se amba, la patro e la fi= lio, iras aden la inferno
ambalatere di el stacis sta= tui
ambatranchiva glavo
kolektar frukti a= mbamanue

Anke, ka ta remarko da Zamenhof= esas anke valida en Ido?

=C2=ABLa konj-an uzon de= amba=C5=AD en la frazo ni lo=C4=9Das en Londono amba=C5=AD en so= mero k en vintro mi trovas tute ne aprobinda=C2=BB skribis Z.; oni diru= : =E2=80=98=E2=80=98kiel en somero, tiel en vintro, a=C5=AD =C2= =ABne nur=E2=80=A6 sed anka=C5=AD=E2=80=A6=C2=BB.

<= div>En Ido:

=C2=ABLa konjugala uzon di amba= =C2=A0en la frazo ni lojas en London amba en somero ed en vintro=C2= =A0me judikas kom tote ne aprobinda=C2=BB skribis Z.; on dicez: "qu= ale en somero, tale en vintro,=C2=A0o =C2=ABne nur=E2=80=A6 ma anke= =E2=80=A6=C2=BB.

On ne povas konsultar C= outurat o de Beaufront, nam li repulsis ta vorto=E2=80=A6


<= /div> --001a113d15ee55b8970546a4e5e2-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4948 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 27245 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 01:41:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m10.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 01:41:10 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 7895 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 01:41:10 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.83) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 01:41:10 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.50 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: xcS4QA4WLDtt2Tw9dopI4q.l4BHFFbaYjCds0Fsx2WjLnT1N oba.lSUBUUAUrc5GQVUbEW9W6Duj.0.FZmh5tXSskp_ZtlO0A3bAN8_EVc2l KwK4AorLlnUW1QJAO9tys.ftKf7HsVdIqLxGUd0XIl5naUklddIIOwrLbALy li.dt2zu_GFxtCsen6H1huNuxWqevufyux7ibqCnYx0juWz_gt1w9IxqJi4U .McGQWqEbS7FFJgwUahD8ySjZe6eLOtUuwBENhNw.H1yvcIP7vLCwM55KmGt Hf39c_2spTniUUtc7d5bZg2lUsh3nviH9ob2mr5hppmBmfwlNPSaCW.8zlGt f5zD3DykrzSqr2_5OAh7Ydqm4Vk8rs51S7mBqqmfcwazro7UV6G04NKBHAQk c7wBSfpcTTWSte7zUa3__hOpnFaGuue5AjxQTa3W8u6Hc033LpoK3f35vkQZ r_QLSo7d31kHGo1FUaLvHXnk9ltr2RdMENSmdmfqGTVNHGQzO.W_K6B.5.kD o3coipSU8Q4qjgo.rdgRR5bmlfp5PtP07VasKdzSiKg1ge7..bEBTuxRXs7z GpkuitDIqxZDy3skMtKmTv9VVB1GffV3d7EodKo5iiWl4eZ6IQc07_S0eNmO CIxqrHwrv_Tq3fQVQ5p5Aopm.FkxWZllFlUs5QLIS3EHVr39wb3Rnv1AJ0AI 4oGgbreRDzxOYe522sFSuibRUnFhgR6GzMWJjWTrtEa84mAF3m6fuoiP4quO bDtvxTGyMWRRTQ7Lbc9pbXUR9Fjbdg7sILTogteJR7sGmqSlsvXsMuNZvIUO .irlywtaL8J2JJfOcmF08fWnD_qFrrg7kavJrsrcZPMFtt2bR0ydPjHZznSB dDRyJ9nXKloMBzOapPNoajN3VtdbBuxeOTVLMWULwdXc5SW1FaJ0TVTzrEY1 UUfqmJqn7WLtNvrTtjP_FdbF_t6BDNsbw37eWv3M5h2jZKigBDmn7hNIXsLf 0DdbL2YwmVwwfCj4skYCyk3Nk2uDzPmWtSXu1rOqV2AVKkvVjOYPqiRETGKf 7Lx8J83dKz7u3RmWl1zGTof9UxVkoh5qt8waQDS4CgKCZ1y0B33KWagSBIaK caC7kiakRP4JJMEBNFiTNeSvAx8_EmaGnDCWPvk_U5pRiE.9c6c5tdXXbmrp giNynEyeSoHE4v9AP5U_pjDIN3f_DP08DN38oW8Igq5TnT2fUOp3YrYzkmyJ FI3ShZL48uZLhLlAHIJ5SltRrZLl6cxw.R9dv04p Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f50.google.com) (209.85.213.50) by mta1003.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 01:41:09 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f50.google.com with SMTP id r136so72038504vke.1 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:41:09 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=ibFu4UOMKylg/HSZjyOYs02+pPwbhLZObo59U/0Jcww=; b=qAXwJcWG0u03AosCvqLVaMoCTISuKYH57sKPw8tTPc/k3h+/5J9Vj6UFOWoSqnEuhA iivlR4jDVRLQxs1J9o5fbM1irP395XSclzi802q/iE4GVkGRKtj42SeZpexsJhkcVy22 HEr6flk0tNqTkr39kWRKbsv6ajl+SjVXcr/bSRPUSFVCRSX3M1vDTgxMWsEZnsQqLcq2 LPOmQnZRsZMDLZnsQ+RuhdECSkFsUXHw79/IQYgGpG5/YzdrBApLc9tx0QzWlPJZ4Idb VcOiMrH2D95KCGzJCz/96HexBEuz4uRQxt/e/m2bPh8F+jmpl8uGB0zUR5yFWUC8QSUY ptpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXIeZvNu6RFPO/onCn4mrGJ0Oxfx4m30kj4XL2bXvbTns8hbSwAmiSQ6nb7+TOLkR/7IyQsdUp6dyQn7Mg== X-Received: by 10.31.130.207 with SMTP id e198mr8659691vkd.149.1485049269196; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:41:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:41:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 01:41:08 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11458ba82a21660546a4faf0 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrZGVwb3PCuyBvIMKrZGUgcG9zwrs=?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=d-8wZWJXqbTJAgyNUYF9rVLJwFP62ia1ih1GQAxlmAMsHeFEwI-T4Q X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a11458ba82a21660546a4faf0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable La idisti, ja de la komenco, skribas lore "de pos", lore "depos". Meajudike= , l'unesma formo ("de pos") esas preferinda, nam la duesma, segun la reguli= pri acentizo en Ido, chanjas la plaso dil acento ("d=C3=A9pos"), quo esas = evitinda. 2017-01-22 0:02 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.c= om [linguolisto] : > > > Kara samideani, > En= la defino di =C2=ABde=C2=BB da Dyer, on trovas plura =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB. >= > Tamen, en la Eroro-Listo lu remplasigis omna ta =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB da = =C2=ABde pos=C2=BB, apud > =C2=ABde-lore=C2=BB (de lore), =C2=ABde-pose=C2= =BB (de pose) e =C2=ABde-pos ke=C2=BB (de pos ke). > > Ka to signifikas ke = =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB esas eroro? Ka to signifikas ke =C2=ABde pos=C2=BB esas = > plu justa? Pro quo lu korektigis li? > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Ph= ilippe > --001a11458ba82a21660546a4faf0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
La idisti, ja de la komenco, sk= ribas lore "de pos", lore "depos". Meajudike, l'une= sma formo ("de pos") esas preferinda, nam la duesma, segun la reg= uli pri acentizo en Ido, chanjas la plaso dil acento ("d=C3=A9pos"= ;), quo esas evitinda.
<= br>
2017-01-22 0:02 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolist= o] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kara samideani,
En la defino di =C2=ABde=C2=BB da Dyer, = on trovas plura =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB.

Tamen, en la Eroro-L= isto lu remplasigis omna ta =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB da =C2=ABde pos=C2=BB, apud = =C2=ABde-lore=C2=BB (de lore), =C2=ABde-pose=C2=BB (de pose) e =C2=ABde-pos= ke=C2=BB (de pos ke).

Ka to signifikas ke =C2=ABd= e-pos=C2=BB esas eroro? Ka to signifikas ke =C2=ABde pos=C2=BB esas plu jus= ta? Pro quo lu korektigis li?

Kun kordiala saluti,=
Gilles-Philippe
=

--001a11458ba82a21660546a4faf0-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4949 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22010 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 01:44:19 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 01:44:19 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 9350 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 01:44:19 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 01:44:19 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.45 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 78ozSAAWLDvj2uPtgrF7tXA94fmO7KkG._aaiIpJ0Gc0DPZy FY0QJXJQzmYuitVqr7w5cj4rwy6rgtUwlzGdJC2lgVLnMJQslmfIbaYMr4Kg _2eaefgcHMdZeAlM6wYUosvf_sngJVXAhHJyFT1aVcqfyMgPaJbF1lcL3Y04 mA65MUgctIbWHEfICAPnkTw85zDYW7E9xu0sjsNeWj2QkVvyA8yIjlikgcD. 6cSWYnl0NIQIa2FHkvIWpyec7MX3Wd7gArRx6dGoYoascUdmyMHxGchcqXtw 9eHpl4gERaOH1IMcaBL0fcsCjKnFKF7IyQxMHQTuna3DivsHWY7TTLzyptj0 JxnTFc1hYl8kQCKXsvGYrgk53w_0O0CsIn88HFb3aPNN3jq0fAnJD.DrE4nP 0sUZvquKxl5O5Z90M2r_i2MDLtti27iUkyHcz_18k2I.tBE3EZm7zMyWbwEP AVaTmn22YHyarUfzqHOiovD5n8M4q9VcHNigqjizjap5WtpvYHCFSDVB5mNW nx6HFq76k01NoA36Vtk1S1U5bbvPPScFINR6E8GWn0TXa1zS8s00RDa6UcL7 ZurOvaUwRjmgg6QmK32ftuRc5rZ7YEteSwQis2BNJRcI0u9cUaxSLnzhBq8V kLSAoRkq7O_clXuiqMBxSRAkd7vT3ziErTJMH_2ysW6EP9E3oCpftNsa0kQU UdL62zrrh54YUpGhEX2jYtCUnLeM1wSUnJHP5PaMKbfjp.5tXbc07CdYKj94 fkporhnW4ZV4nWiiuvLZ9UVzO2KeonEBnLRq9T_USgc0wSkV6vIOgNNx3q7z m9qVcxC2l.PxNzFVaQaCX93QU2Wg3n0HIXiTT9wqwv.UJckixTPFMoVHqX2V X2GRYDTi0ucrXqvOShekDIQ0ihxM5cqUpF3FuTZb0k4xdrF7PMs8oq131WpE CHg15TBrSkjJpIoCH08b4e.iMoRmhLWkwedNp1Og5qrRa8AsBhy8tdLqlrrF hn3QmOAg90f66Ewzl6Dr3EH0KotcWl3eVttCaPT4zrl2dQ.cIKOenX430XA7 AIU7.Kkqne4fk1o6s4hGUNWAydOo5tt6RPjJPWBZopTG5chLzPPFqi6RF7yx yZvCsb7ynhGA7JTQmSpetiGQGwtLR1AYgAwZGNnNDZgz7k9RyjI0qWc31QtN tfUBboFcr_tkrXUGDLvKng6NyBmljfd4Pe_89T38lOuXMlSjE1DNPGb7b33A cYLqCohx2k8EqJM69hzJ9inSLSL3juUGXDsW99dPEVbquXUEMEWknfv6VchY K_m8eiYco15Ra49HC3Kfg316dn7iZXK_xQMtv_nYiGLy0vfsS_iPqu6YNwJx p6j.YaF5rRpiXSQRGYA61e_bKYmjUjAo3cEsgU0yHKH7963SdAYTH2h.UVzV wNPTu1Riz8063amF.QzomLEr0rmUBW9gczmSslCfm5PD9ir7r75wY69fd29k 5WZFDZ.wT1cI8aiLvfiwzgC5QJCVrb63DOr0covWBR50JPjxy3h.mpC68p0O 6ragGCYneK4keXMowh1jxiSGlum.pahDlv5uPflXruP9gsZAHsbezTWJNbbQ tApu2zCu9tU7TCGHEVEjZgOXCg-- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f45.google.com) (74.125.82.45) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 01:44:18 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f45.google.com with SMTP id c85so86370496wmi.1 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:44:18 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=KDo5pF4Rf/rRLOUojVDK8AbILxINpZKFy8rRF1H9lNc=; b=E6E/ncVJ5qSEhmE0Eo2FZDkjEFpmxNh2D91bgjgRW+vQisfeI3cn0uRHEE9uTb5sIC p9QHXqlO53GLwev/OI+yr/iOiYCRBVnVBMtBvJlB+HiWryk9g+mC5nlW92WxzKhYn/Cj nG9UkMQ624CZmTac/MljJ9g9+8mua2mQAlxMBOODeBltAMZaGw7lAtSngkE/uMKmuMUH Trahq7U10y6ZO2D+6mD2e7jS0bi+BzGprk92m2LaFErrzYr+vwH1lSW/QtUSEinUYx36 nfK6rg6sZnWAF4zzd/JzuolMAr/jYoso0kRiSi1nzgu8TbP+xwxFBScYaEIB2791r668 O6Lw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXL+ZY7L9e9hdKgBCePhLm7uHBUrYSh8/2ivUmJO8rqy7gQqGAjSyr4xIJG0Zgpz8ioBfBBjLaWBu++RBA== X-Received: by 10.223.151.99 with SMTP id r90mr17034236wrb.183.1485049457384; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:44:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Jan 2017 17:44:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 20:44:16 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045d5b1061a28e0546a505d2 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrZGVwb3PCuyBvIMKrZGUgcG9zwrs=?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045d5b1061a28e0546a505d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nu, to esas tote justa! Forsan to esas pro quo la PIV anke deskonsilas =C2= =ABdepost=C2=BB: http://vortaro.net/#depost 2017-01-21 20:41 GMT-05:00 Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.= com>: > > > La idisti, ja de la komenco, skribas lore "de pos", lore "depo= s". > Meajudike, l'unesma formo ("de pos") esas preferinda, nam la duesma, = segun > la reguli pri acentizo en Ido, chanjas la plaso dil acento ("d=C3= =A9pos"), quo > esas evitinda. > > 2017-01-22 0:02 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philipp= e Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : >= >> >> >> Kara samideani, >> En la defino di =C2=ABde=C2=BB da Dyer, on tro= vas plura =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB. >> >> Tamen, en la Eroro-Listo lu remplasigis= omna ta =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB da =C2=ABde pos=C2=BB, >> apud =C2=ABde-lore=C2= =BB (de lore), =C2=ABde-pose=C2=BB (de pose) e =C2=ABde-pos ke=C2=BB (de po= s ke). >> >> Ka to signifikas ke =C2=ABde-pos=C2=BB esas eroro? Ka to signi= fikas ke =C2=ABde pos=C2=BB >> esas plu justa? Pro quo lu korektigis li? >>= >> Kun kordiala saluti, >> Gilles-Philippe >> > > > > --f403045d5b1061a28e0546a505d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nu, to esas tote justa! Forsan to esas pro quo la PIV anke= deskonsilas =C2=ABdepost=C2=BB:
<= br>
2017-01-21 20:41 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves= gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto]= <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

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Me lektos tua artiklo plu tarde. Ma, nu, mem ante lektor lu, me ja = konvinkesas ke =C2=ABamba=C2=BB certe ne esas adjektivo... 2017-01-21 20:3= 5 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Yes, *amba* uzesas quale *amba=C5=AD* en Espera= nto, e la remarko da Zamenhof > certe esas valida anke en Ido. Pri plurales= o di *amba* tu forsan esas > justa, ma me memoras uzir plurfoye la formo *a= mbi*, quaze instintale, ne > konciante pri lua duopla pluraleso, o forsan n= ur pro la deziro emfazar lua > pluraleso. > > Pri la vorto *amba=C5=AD* me = skribis yena studiuro en 2003: > > http://esperanto-ondo.ru/L-neves1.htm > = > (la fotografuro esas tote ne-aktuala!) > > > > 2017-01-21 22:48 GMT+00:00= Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kad on povas derivar de =C2=ABamba=C2=BB? Certe on= ne povas dicar =C2=ABambi=C2=BB, nam >> =C2=ABamba=C2=BB esas ja plurala. = Do kad on uzez lu tote quale =C2=ABamba=C5=AD=C2=BB en Esperanto? >> >> htt= p://vortaro.net/#amba%C5%AD >> >> *kad il salvesis? Kad Elektro vivas?=E2= =80=94Yes, amba vivas* >> *a vu demarshin ed a me sufrin vu efektigas, tame= n amba esas vana* >> *pos un dio li amba mortos* >> *plu bone esas irar sen= filia aden la cielo, kam se amba, la patro e la >> filio, iras aden la infe= rno* >> *ambalatere di el stacis statui* >> *ambatranchiva glavo* >> *kolek= tar frukti ambamanue* >> >> Anke, ka ta remarko da Zamenhof esas anke valid= a en Ido? >> >> =C2=ABLa konj-an uzon de *amba=C5=AD* en la frazo *ni lo=C4= =9Das en Londono amba=C5=AD en >> somero k en vintro* mi trovas tute ne apr= obinda=C2=BB skribis Z.; oni diru: *=E2=80=98=E2=80=98kiel >> en somero, ti= el en vintro,* a=C5=AD *=C2=ABne nur=E2=80=A6 sed anka=C5=AD=E2=80=A6=C2=BB= *. >> >> En Ido: >> >> =C2=ABLa konjugala uzon di *amba* en la frazo *ni lo= jas en London amba en >> somero ed en vintro* me judikas kom tote ne aprobi= nda=C2=BB skribis Z.; on >> dicez: *"quale en somero, tale en vintro,* o *= =C2=ABne nur=E2=80=A6 ma anke=E2=80=A6=C2=BB*. >> >> On ne povas konsultar = Couturat o de Beaufront, nam li repulsis ta vorto=E2=80=A6 >> >> > > --f403045eaddaeaf1e20546a53828 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danko! Me lektos tua artiklo plu tarde.

Ma, nu, mem ante lektor lu, me ja konvinkesas ke =C2=ABamba=C2=BB certe ne= esas adjektivo...

2017-01-21 20:35 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Yes, amba uzesas quale amba=C5=AD en Esperan= to, e la remarko da Zamenhof certe esas valida anke en Ido. Pri pluraleso d= i amba tu forsan esas justa, ma me memoras uzir plurfoye la formo ambi, quaze instintale, ne konciante pri lua duopla pluraleso, o forsa= n nur pro la deziro emfazar lua pluraleso.

Pri la vorto amba=C5=AD me skribis yena= studiuro en 2003:
=
htt= p://esperanto-ondo.ru/L-neves1.htm

(la fotografuro esas tote ne-aktuala!) <= /span>



2017-01-21 22:48 GMT+00:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups= .com>:
=
=C2=A0 =
<= div id=3D"m_422870550529220620gmail-m_5497536894654096923ygrp-msg"> <= div id=3D"m_422870550529220620gmail-m_5497536894654096923ygrp-text"> =

Kad on povas derivar de =C2=ABamba=C2= =BB? Certe on ne povas dicar =C2=ABambi=C2=BB, nam =C2=ABamba=C2=BB esas ja= plurala. Do kad on uzez lu tote quale =C2=ABamba=C5=AD=C2=BB en Esperanto?=


= kad il salvesis? Kad Elektro vivas?=E2=80=94Yes, amba vivas
a vu demarshin ed a me sufrin vu efektigas, tamen amba esas vana
pos un dio li amba mortos
plu bone esas irar s= enfilia aden la cielo, kam se amba, la patro e la filio, iras aden la infer= no
ambalatere di el stacis statui
am= batranchiva glavo
kolektar frukti ambamanue

Anke, ka ta remarko da Zamenhof esas anke valida en Id= o?

=C2=ABLa konj-an uzon de amba=C5=AD en l= a frazo ni lo=C4=9Das en Londono amba=C5=AD en somero k en vintro mi= trovas tute ne aprobinda=C2=BB skribis Z.; oni diru: =E2=80=98=E2=80=98= kiel en somero, tiel en vintro, a=C5=AD =C2=ABne nur=E2=80=A6 sed an= ka=C5=AD=E2=80=A6=C2=BB.

En Ido:
=C2=ABLa konjugala uzon di amba=C2=A0en la frazo ni l= ojas en London amba en somero ed en vintro=C2=A0me judikas kom tote ne = aprobinda=C2=BB skribis Z.; on dicez: "quale en somero, tale en vin= tro,=C2=A0o =C2=ABne nur=E2=80=A6 ma anke=E2=80=A6=C2=BB.
<= /div>

On ne povas konsultar Couturat o de Beaufront, nam= li repulsis ta vorto=E2=80=A6

=
=

<= /div>

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La vorto *genitinto* derivesas de la ver= bo *genitar*; konseque ol sempre kontenas, portas e komunikas, explicite od= implicite, forte o feble, milde o severe, esencal ideo pri genital organi,= fekundigo, spermo ed ovulo. La vorto *genitoro* signifikas =C2=ABpatro o m= atro=C2=BB. Or la vorti *patro* e *matro* tote ne kontenas, portas o komuni= kas tal ideo. Oli esas vorti qui, kontree, emfazas precipue la familiala e = sociala rolo di la "genitinti". Pluse, la vorto *genitinto* referas ad unik= a instanto pasinta, ordinare ja tre fora, kontre ke la vorti *patro* e *mat= ro* (e, konseque, *genitoro*) referas a plura periodi di la familiala vivo,= ad infanteso, puereso, pubereso, adoleco, e mem pose, ad adultesko ed adul= teso, ad omna evi dum qui la filii kreskas e matureskas, do a tota vivo, na= m on nultempe cesas esar patro o matro (e, konseque, genitoro). La fakto k= e *genitor *en la Franca ed Angla (same kam *progenitor* en la Hispana e *g= enitore* en la Itala) signifikas nur =C2=ABbiologiala genitoro=C2=BB ne sig= nifikas ke la vorto *genitoro* ne povas aquirar senco plu ampla en Ido ed e= sar uzata anke por expresar nova familiala relati en la moderna socio, qui = inkluzas anke genitori "ne-biologiala", quale sugestis Robert. Advere, en I= do la vorti ne sempre signifikas exakte lo sama kam en la fonto-lingui. Exe= mple, la vorto *dindo* devenas de la Franca *dinde*, qua signifikas nur =C2= =ABdindino=C2=BB, ma en Ido *dindo* signifikas ne nur =C2=ABdindino=C2=BB, = ma anke =C2=ABdindulo=C2=BB. Do nulo impedas *genitoro* extensar sua senco = segun la sociala bezoni e preferi dal Idisti. 2017-01-19 15:13 GMT+00:00 G= illes-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Robert, me ne konkordas, nam en la Franca e la Angla =C2= =ABgenitor=C2=BB esas la > strikta nomo por biologiala patro o matro=E2=80= =A6 E ni ja olim havis diskuto pri > la filozofio di =C2=ABgenitado=C2=BB. = On ya povas argumentar pri la vera signifiko di > =C2=ABgenitar=C2=BB. > > --001a11458ba87786b30546a596bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<= span style=3D"font-family:times new roman,serif">Mem se la vorti genitin= to e genitoro eventuale referas sempre ad identa persono, od alt= re dicite, mem se genitinto sempre esas genitoro e genitoro sempre esas gen= itinto (nun me ne volas diskutar tala detali "teknikal"), oli ne = esas, meaopinione, sinonimi. La vorto genitinto derivesas de la verb= o genitar; konseque ol sempre kontenas, portas e komunikas, explicit= e od implicite, forte o feble, milde o severe, esencal ideo pri <= font size=3D"4">genital o= rgani, fekundigo, spermo ed ovulo. La vorto genitor= o signifikas =C2=ABpatro o matro=C2=BB. Or la vorti patro e m= atro tote ne kontenas, portas o komunikas tal ideo. Oli esas vorti qui,= kontree, emfazas precipue la familiala e sociala rolo di la "genitint= i". Pluse, la vorto genitinto referas ad unika instanto pasinta= , ordinare ja tre fora, kontre ke la vorti patro e matro (e, = konseque, genitoro) referas a plura periodi di la familiala vivo, ad= infanteso, puereso, pubereso, adoleco, e mem pose, ad adultesko ed adultes= o, ad omna evi dum qui la filii kreskas e matureskas, do a tota vivo, nam o= n nultempe cesas esar patro o matro (e, konseque, genitoro).

=
La fakto ke genitor <= /span>en la Franca ed Angla (same kam progenitor en la= Hispana e genitore en la Itala) signifikas nur =C2=ABbiologiala gen= itoro=C2=BB ne signifikas ke la vorto genitoro ne povas aquirar senc= o plu ampla en Ido ed esar uzata anke por expresar nova familiala relati en= la moderna socio, qui inkluzas anke genitori "ne-biologiala", qu= ale sugestis Robert. Advere, en Ido la vorti ne sempre signifikas exakte lo= sama kam en la fonto-lingui. Exemple, la vorto dindo devenas de la = Franca dinde, qua signifikas nur =C2=ABdindino=C2=BB, ma en Ido d= indo signifikas ne nur =C2=ABdindino=C2=BB, ma anke =C2=ABdindulo=C2=BB= . Do nulo impedas genitoro extensar sua senco segun la sociala bezon= i e preferi dal Idisti.

2017-01-19 15:13 GMT+00:00 Gilles-= Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> = =C2=A0

Robert, me ne konkordas, nam= en la Franca e la Angla =C2=ABgenitor=C2=BB esas la strikta nomo por biolo= giala patro o matro=E2=80=A6 E ni ja olim havis diskuto pri la filozofio di= =C2=ABgenitado=C2=BB. On ya povas argumentar pri la vera signifiko di =C2= =ABgenitar=C2=BB.



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La esperantismo e= stas forte ligita kun certa interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis min certa sin= jorino Schmidt.* Do, en Ido: *Certena* havas interaltre signifiko simila = ad individuesala *un*, ma *certena* esas plu forta. Ol emfaze montras, ke u= lo esas certe konocata a la parolanto (ma versimile ne a la askoltanto): *E= n certena foyi multa sajeso esas pli mala, kam se on ol tote ne havus. La E= sperantismo esas forte ligita kun certena interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis= men certena siorino Schmidt.* Ka me do povas konkluzar, ke la uzo di cert= ena =C2=ABula=C2=BB dal exemplo di *Progreso* nun chanjis por =C2=ABcertena= =C2=BB? *Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: = =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara libro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),= =C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu exacte, pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99au= toro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min konfuza di ta= libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB sp= eco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar.* Ka, do, on s= kribez =C2=ABcertena speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABcertena temo=C2=BB, o ka =C2=ABula= =C2=BB esas ankore valida? 2017-01-21 20:21 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves g= neves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Gill= es-Philippe, serchez en PIV la triesma senco di *certa* e lektez ibe > la e= xempli e, precipue, la remarko qua sequas olci. La senco di *certena*, > se= gun mea judiko, korespondas preske exakte al triesma senco di *certa* > en = Esperanto. > > > 2017-01-22 1:01 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@g= mail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Itere, m= e sempre kredas komprenar =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ma pose kredas ne komprenar >= > lu. >> >> Segun Dyer, on trovas lo ya en *Progreso*, III, p. 28: >> >> *U= la* ne indikas kompleta nedetermineso (quan *irga* expresus plu >> juste), = ma mi-determineso. *Ula* povas anke ludar la rolo di la >> nedefinita artik= lo, se (o kande) on trovas ica necesa. Ex.: Me stacas avan >> la biblioteko= di amiko (me ne dicas: di ula amiko, nam me pensas (pri) nula >> amiko par= tikulare o prefere); me dicas a lu: =C2=ABMe deziras libro=C2=BB. To >> sig= nifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar, donez a me (irga) libro=C2=BB. Ma se me d= icas: >> =C2=ABMe deziras *ula* libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe dezira= s lektar partikulara >> libro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me= ne povas indikar plu exacte, >> pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la = titulo: ma me tamen havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o >> min konfuza di ta libro, = e ne di altra: adminime, di libro apartenanta ad >> =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o= relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar. >> >> Nu, me serchi= s en *Le Petit Robert* la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB e me trovis >> nur = quar senci posibla: >> >> [1.] Nepreciza, desfacila fixigar. *Esis ibe ula = nombro de homi. El >> restos dum ula tempo. Til ula grado* [N.B. ulgrade?]*= .* >> [2.] (Atenuante l'ideo di nedetermineso). *Necesesis ula kurajo* [N.B= . >> on trovas =C2=ABkelka kurajo=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], kurajo. *Persono d= i ula evo* [N.B. >> on trovas =C2=ABkelke evoza=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], ne p= lus tre yuna, e ne *di evo >> certa* (granda; olda). *Lua =C2=ABlucideso ce= rta e lua kelka humuro=C2=BB *(J. >> Sternberg) [N.B. me naturale judikas = =C2=ABula=C2=BB tante stranja en ca kazo, ke me >> tradukis per =C2=ABkelka= =C2=BB]. >> [3.] (pluralo) Uli meze di altri. *Ula populi. En ula landi. En= ula foyi* [N.B. >> ulfoye?]. >> [4.] Uzesas avan nomo di persono signifika= nte desprizo, desestimo o >> nesavo. *=C2=ABMe audis plurfoye, ke on vokis = ula Stefanus=C2=BB* (D. Boulanger). >> >> Nu, la senco (2) ja semblas rezer= vita a la vorto =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB, se ni fidez la >> Wikivortaro. >> La cet= ero, segun me, juste sequas la exempli donita en *Progreso* e mem >> sequas= vorti quin on trovas en dicionarii (uli, ulgrade, ulfoye, e.c.). >> >> Nu,= pos konsiderir to, me ne savas en qua ek ta senci on remplasigez >> =C2=AB= ula=C2=BB da =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB. Kad on povas dicar a me, en qua ek ta qua= r senci on >> uzez =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB? O ka =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ne equival= as =C2=AB(un) certain=C2=BB en la Franca, >> kontredicante la plura diciona= rii qui dicas lo kontrea? >> > > > > --001a1145b04a2050400546a65396 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Se me fidas la Plena Manlibro de Esperanta Gramatiko (PMEG), qua esas kelke quale moderna versiono di nia Kompleta Gramatik= o:

= Certa havas interalie signifon similan al individueca unu, se= d certa estas pli forta. =C4=9Ci emfaze montras, ke io estas certe k= onata al la parolanto (sed ver=C5=9Dajne ne al la a=C5=ADskultanto): En = certaj okazoj multe da sa=C4=9Do estas pli malbona, ol se oni =C4=9D= in tute ne havus. La esperantismo estas forte ligita kun certa inter= na ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis min certa sinjorino Schmidt.
<= /div>

Do, en Ido:

Certena=C2=A0havas interaltre signifiko simila ad individuesala un, ma = certena=C2=A0esas plu forta. Ol emfaze montras, ke ulo esas certe konoc= ata a la parolanto (ma versimile ne a la askoltanto): En certena= =C2=A0foyi multa sajeso esas pli mala, kam se on ol tote ne havus. La Esper= antismo esas forte ligita kun certena=C2=A0interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD= vizitis men certena=C2=A0siorino Schmidt.

=
Ka me do povas konkluzar, ke la uzo di certena =C2=ABula=C2=BB d= al exemplo di Progreso=C2=A0nun chanjis por =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB?

Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro= =C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara libro (konocata = da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu exacte, pro ke me = obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas l=E2=80=99ideo pl= u o min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di libro apartenanta = ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula= =C2=BB temo, quan me= povas definar.

Ka, do, on skrib= ez =C2=ABcertena speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABcertena temo=C2=BB, o ka =C2=ABula=C2= =BB esas ankore valida?

2017-01-21 20:21 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Gilles-Philippe, serchez en PIV la triesma senco d= i certa e lektez ibe la = exempli e, precipue, la remarko qua sequas olci. La senco di certena= , segun mea judiko, korespondas preske exakte al triesma senco di certa en Esperanto.=


2017-01-22 1:01 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [lingu= olisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

<= /p>

Itere, me sempre kredas komprenar =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB m= a pose kredas ne komprenar lu.

Segun Dyer, on trovas lo = ya en Progreso, III, p. 28:

Ula ne i= ndikas kompleta nedetermineso (quan irga expresus plu juste), ma mi-= determineso. Ula povas anke ludar la rolo di la nedefinita artiklo, = se (o kande) on trovas ica necesa. Ex.: Me stacas avan la biblioteko di ami= ko (me ne dicas: di ula amiko, nam me pensas (pri) nula amiko partikulare o= prefere); me dicas a lu: =C2=ABMe deziras libro=C2=BB. To signifikas: =C2= =ABMe deziras lektar, donez a me (irga) libro=C2=BB. Ma se me dicas: =C2=AB= Me deziras ula libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar p= artikulara libro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas ind= ikar plu exacte, pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me ta= men havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: admi= nime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula= =C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar.

Nu, me ser= chis en Le Petit Robert=C2=A0la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB e me t= rovis nur quar senci posibla:

[1.] Nepreciza, desf= acila fixigar. Esis ibe ula nombro de homi. El restos dum ula tempo. Til= ula grado=C2=A0[N.B. ulgrade?].
[2.] (Atenuante l'= ;ideo di nedetermineso). Necesesis ula kurajo=C2=A0[N.B. on trovas = =C2=ABkelka kurajo=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], kurajo. Persono di ula evo= =C2=A0[N.B. on trovas =C2=ABkelke evoza=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], ne plus tre = yuna, e ne di evo certa=C2=A0(granda; olda). Lua =C2=ABlucideso c= erta e lua kelka humuro=C2=BB=C2=A0(J. Sternberg) [N.B. me naturale jud= ikas =C2=ABula=C2=BB tante stranja en ca kazo, ke me tradukis per =C2=ABkel= ka=C2=BB].
[3.] (pluralo) Uli meze di altri. Ula populi. En ul= a landi. En ula foyi=C2=A0[N.B. ulfoye?].
[4.] Uzesas avan no= mo di persono signifikante desprizo, desestimo o nesavo. =C2=ABMe audis = plurfoye, ke on vokis ula Stefanus=C2=BB=C2=A0(D. Boulanger).

Nu, la senco (2) ja semblas rezervita a la vorto =C2=ABkelk= a=C2=BB, se ni fidez la Wikivortaro.
La cetero, segun me, juste s= equas la exempli donita en Progreso=C2=A0e mem sequas vorti quin on = trovas en dicionarii (uli, ulgrade, ulfoye, e.c.).

Nu, pos konsiderir to, me ne savas en qua ek ta senci on remplasigez =C2= =ABula=C2=BB da =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB. Kad on povas dicar a me, en qua ek ta = quar senci on uzez =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB? O ka =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ne equival= as =C2=AB(un) certain=C2=BB en la Franca, kontredicante la plura dicionarii= qui dicas lo kontrea?

=


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Or en la exemplo, *=C2= =ABula=C2=BB speco* e *=C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar* esas ne= k nekonocata nek neklara (nam la parolanto *povas definar* la speco e la te= mo) e la identeso ya esas grava, nam la parolanto *deziras* la libro, quan = lu *ne povas indikar plu exakte* ecepte per ta *speco* e per ta *temo*. La= problemo pri komparar =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB kun la =C2=ABcerta=C2=BB di Espe= ranto esas =C2=ABiu=C2=BB. Fakte, =C2=ABiu=C2=BB uzesas en Esperanto por *= nedetermineso*, segun la dicionarii (PIV, inter altri). Or =C2=ABula=C2=BB = uzesas por *midetermineso*, segun la defino en *Progreso*, do forsan to sig= nifikas, segun mea kompreno, ke en ula kazi =C2=ABula=C2=BB uzesas por *qua= za determineso* (quale =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB) ed en altri por *nedetermineso*= (tamen sen uzesar por *tota nedetermineso* quale =C2=ABirga=C2=BB). O kad= on chanjis la senco di =C2=ABula=C2=BB? 2017-01-21 22:17 GMT-05:00 Gilles= -Philippe Morin : > Se me fidas la *Plena Manlibro de = Esperanta Gramatiko* (PMEG), qua esas > kelke quale moderna versiono di nia= *Kompleta Gramatiko*: > http://bertilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/nombroj/vorteto= j/ > unu_specialaj_uzoj.html#i-8hb > > *Certa* havas interalie signifon sim= ilan al individueca *unu*, sed *certa* > estas pli forta. =C4=9Ci emfaze mo= ntras, ke io estas certe konata al la > parolanto (sed ver=C5=9Dajne ne al = la a=C5=ADskultanto): *En certaj okazoj multe da > sa=C4=9Do estas pli malb= ona, ol se oni =C4=9Din tute ne havus. La esperantismo estas > forte ligita= kun certa interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis min certa sinjorino > Schmidt.= * > > Do, en Ido: > > *Certena* havas interaltre signifiko simila ad indivi= duesala *un*, ma > *certena* esas plu forta. Ol emfaze montras, ke ulo esas= certe konocata a > la parolanto (ma versimile ne a la askoltanto): *En cer= tena foyi multa > sajeso esas pli mala, kam se on ol tote ne havus. La Espe= rantismo esas > forte ligita kun certena interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis = men certena siorino > Schmidt.* > > Ka me do povas konkluzar, ke la uzo di = certena =C2=ABula=C2=BB dal exemplo di > *Progreso* nun chanjis por =C2=ABc= ertena=C2=BB? > > *Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro=C2=BB, to sig= nifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar > partikulara libro (konocata da me, o ja = lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar > plu exacte, pro ke me obliviis l= =E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas > l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min = konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di libro > apartenanta ad =C2= =ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar.= * > > Ka, do, on skribez =C2=ABcertena speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABcertena temo=C2= =BB, o ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas > ankore valida? > > 2017-01-21 20:21 GMT-05= :00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] > : > >> >> >> Gilles-Philippe, serchez en PIV la triesma senco d= i *certa* e lektez ibe >> la exempli e, precipue, la remarko qua sequas olc= i. La senco di *certena*, >> segun mea judiko, korespondas preske exakte al= triesma senco di *certa* >> en Esperanto. >> >> >> 2017-01-22 1:01 GMT+00:= 00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Itere, me sempre kredas komprenar =C2=ABcer= tena=C2=BB ma pose kredas ne komprenar >>> lu. >>> >>> Segun Dyer, on trova= s lo ya en *Progreso*, III, p. 28: >>> >>> *Ula* ne indikas kompleta nedete= rmineso (quan *irga* expresus plu >>> juste), ma mi-determineso. *Ula* pova= s anke ludar la rolo di la >>> nedefinita artiklo, se (o kande) on trovas i= ca necesa. Ex.: Me stacas avan >>> la biblioteko di amiko (me ne dicas: di = ula amiko, nam me pensas (pri) nula >>> amiko partikulare o prefere); me di= cas a lu: =C2=ABMe deziras libro=C2=BB. To >>> signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras= lektar, donez a me (irga) libro=C2=BB. Ma se me dicas: >>> =C2=ABMe dezira= s *ula* libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara >>>= libro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu e= xacte, >>> pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen ha= vas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o >>> min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: admini= me, di libro apartenanta ad >>> =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula= =C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar. >>> >>> Nu, me serchis en *Le Petit Rob= ert* la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB e me trovis >>> nur quar senci posibl= a: >>> >>> [1.] Nepreciza, desfacila fixigar. *Esis ibe ula nombro de homi.= El >>> restos dum ula tempo. Til ula grado* [N.B. ulgrade?]*.* >>> [2.] (A= tenuante l'ideo di nedetermineso). *Necesesis ula kurajo* [N.B. >>> on trov= as =C2=ABkelka kurajo=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], kurajo. *Persono di ula evo* [= N.B. >>> on trovas =C2=ABkelke evoza=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], ne plus tre yun= a, e ne *di evo >>> certa* (granda; olda). *Lua =C2=ABlucideso certa e lua = kelka humuro=C2=BB *(J. >>> Sternberg) [N.B. me naturale judikas =C2=ABula= =C2=BB tante stranja en ca kazo, ke me >>> tradukis per =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB].= >>> [3.] (pluralo) Uli meze di altri. *Ula populi. En ula landi. En ula >>= > foyi* [N.B. ulfoye?]. >>> [4.] Uzesas avan nomo di persono signifikante d= esprizo, desestimo o >>> nesavo. *=C2=ABMe audis plurfoye, ke on vokis ula = Stefanus=C2=BB* (D. Boulanger). >>> >>> Nu, la senco (2) ja semblas rezervi= ta a la vorto =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB, se ni fidez la >>> Wikivortaro. >>> La cet= ero, segun me, juste sequas la exempli donita en *Progreso* e mem >>> sequa= s vorti quin on trovas en dicionarii (uli, ulgrade, ulfoye, e.c.). >>> >>> = Nu, pos konsiderir to, me ne savas en qua ek ta senci on remplasigez >>> = =C2=ABula=C2=BB da =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB. Kad on povas dicar a me, en qua ek = ta quar senci on >>> uzez =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB? O ka =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ne = equivalas =C2=AB(un) certain=C2=BB en la Franca, >>> kontredicante la plura= dicionarii qui dicas lo kontrea? >>> >> >> >> >> > > --f403045eadda3c1c520546a69b39 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me adjuntez, ke segun la exemplo di Progreso, =C2= =ABula=C2=BB tote ne equivalas la vorto =C2=ABiu=C2=BB en Esperanto, nam = =C2=ABiu=C2=BB definesas dal PMEG tale:
http://berti= low.com/pmeg/gramatiko/nombroj/vortetoj/unu_specialaj_uzoj.html#i-8hb
Iu montras, ke la identeco de la priparolata individuo es= tas nekonata a=C5=AD neklara, a=C5=AD ke la identeco ne estas grava.

En Ido:

Iu=C2= =A0montras, ke la identeso di la priparolata individuo esas nekonocata o neklara, o ke la identeso ne esas grava.

<= div>Or en la exemplo, =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco=C2=A0e =C2=ABula=C2= =BB temo, quan me povas definar=C2=A0esas nek nekonocata=C2=A0nek nekla= ra (nam la parolanto=C2=A0povas definar=C2=A0la speco e la temo) e l= a identeso ya esas grava, nam la parolanto deziras=C2=A0la libro, qu= an lu ne povas indikar plu exakte=C2=A0ecepte per ta speco e = per ta temo.

La problemo pri komparar =C2= =ABcertena=C2=BB kun la =C2=ABcerta=C2=BB di Esperanto esas =C2=ABiu=C2=BB.=

Fakte, =C2=ABiu=C2=BB uzesas en Esperanto por=C2= =A0nedetermineso, segun la dicionarii (PIV, inter altri). Or =C2=ABu= la=C2=BB uzesas por midetermineso, segun la defino en Progreso, do forsan to signifikas, segun mea kompreno, ke en ula kazi =C2=ABula=C2= =BB uzesas por quaza determineso=C2=A0(quale =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB) ed= en altri por nedetermineso=C2=A0(tamen sen uzesar por tota nedet= ermineso=C2=A0quale=C2=A0=C2=ABirga=C2=BB).

O = kad on chanjis la senco di =C2=ABula=C2=BB?

2017-01-21 22:17 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Phi= lippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Se me fidas la Plena Manlibro de Esperanta Gra= matiko (PMEG), qua esas kelke quale moderna versiono di nia Kompleta= Gramatiko:


Do, en Ido:

Certena=C2=A0havas interaltre signifiko simi= la ad individuesala un, ma certena=C2=A0esas plu forta. Ol em= faze montras, ke ulo esas certe konocata a la parolanto (ma versimile ne a = la askoltanto): En certena=C2=A0foyi multa sajeso esas pli mala, = kam se on ol tote ne havus. La Esperantismo esas forte ligita kun certen= a=C2=A0interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis men certena=C2=A0siorin= o Schmidt.

Ka me do povas konkluzar, ke= la uzo di certena =C2=ABula=C2=BB dal exemplo di Progreso=C2=A0nun = chanjis por =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB?

= Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: = =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara libro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),= =C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu exacte, pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99au= toro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min konfuza di ta= libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar.=

Ka, do, on skribez =C2=ABcerten= a speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABcertena temo=C2=BB, o ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas ankore = valida?

2017-01-21 20:21 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3= =A7alo Neves gneves= 64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com&= gt;:
=C2=A0 =
=

Gilles-Philippe, s= erchez en PIV la triesma senco di c= erta e lektez ibe la exempli e, precipue, la remarko qua sequas = olci. La senco di certena, segun mea judiko, korespondas preske exak= te al triesma senco di certa en Esperanto.


2017-= 01-22 1:01 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Itere, me se= mpre kredas komprenar =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ma pose kredas ne komprenar lu.
Segun Dyer, on trovas lo ya en Progreso, III, p. 2= 8:

Ula ne indikas kompleta nedetermineso (q= uan irga expresus plu juste), ma mi-determineso. Ula povas an= ke ludar la rolo di la nedefinita artiklo, se (o kande) on trovas ica neces= a. Ex.: Me stacas avan la biblioteko di amiko (me ne dicas: di ula amiko, n= am me pensas (pri) nula amiko partikulare o prefere); me dicas a lu: =C2=AB= Me deziras libro=C2=BB. To signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar, donez a me = (irga) libro=C2=BB. Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro=C2=BB= , to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara libro (konocata da me,= o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu exacte, pro ke me oblivi= is l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o mi= n konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2= =ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar.=

Nu, me serchis en Le Petit Robert=C2= =A0la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB e me trovis nur quar senci posibla:

[1.] Nepreciza, desfacila fixigar. Esis ibe ula no= mbro de homi. El restos dum ula tempo. Til ula grado=C2=A0[N.B. ulgrade= ?].
[2.] (Atenuante l'ideo di nedetermineso). Neces= esis ula kurajo=C2=A0[N.B. on trovas =C2=ABkelka kurajo=C2=BB en Wikivo= rtaro], kurajo. Persono di ula evo=C2=A0[N.B. on trovas =C2=ABkelke = evoza=C2=BB en Wikivortaro], ne plus tre yuna, e ne di evo certa=C2= =A0(granda; olda). Lua =C2=ABlucideso certa e lua kelka humuro=C2=BB=C2= =A0(J. Sternberg) [N.B. me naturale judikas =C2=ABula=C2=BB tante stran= ja en ca kazo, ke me tradukis per =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB].
[3.] (plura= lo) Uli meze di altri. Ula populi. En ula landi. En ula foyi=C2=A0[N= .B. ulfoye?].
[4.] Uzesas avan nomo di persono signifikante despr= izo, desestimo o nesavo. =C2=ABMe audis plurfoye, ke on vokis ula Stefan= us=C2=BB=C2=A0(D. Boulanger).

Nu, la senco (2)= ja semblas rezervita a la vorto =C2=ABkelka=C2=BB, se ni fidez la Wikivort= aro.
La cetero, segun me, juste sequas la exempli donita en Pr= ogreso=C2=A0e mem sequas vorti quin on trovas en dicionarii (uli, ulgra= de, ulfoye, e.c.).

Nu, pos konsiderir to, me ne sa= vas en qua ek ta senci on remplasigez =C2=ABula=C2=BB da =C2=ABcertena=C2= =BB. Kad on povas dicar a me, en qua ek ta quar senci on uzez =C2=ABcertena= =C2=BB? O ka =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ne equivalas =C2=AB(un) certain=C2=BB en l= a Franca, kontredicante la plura dicionarii qui dicas lo kontrea?


<= /div>


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Tamen, me ya= memoras lektir pri certena kritiko: Nek en Ido, nek en Esperanto, ma en l= a Angla, me trovis kritiko detaloza en qua la autoro mencionas =C2=ABpordo= =C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB kom =C2=ABdeformita en neevidenta manieri=C2=BB:= http://miresperanto.com/konkurentoj/not_my_favourite.htm Me anke kredis, = ke Jespersen mencionis kritiki pri =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB en= la *International-English Dictionary*, ma fakte lu nur deskriptis la decid= o. Mea memorado do faliis... 2017-01-21 7:11 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves = gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > La = exempli quin tu prizentis (a qui on povus adjuntar *muslino* e mem > *flori= no*) sendubite pruvas ke la heroinala homonimeso-timo esas > exajerata e se= nfundamenta, e ke **heroino* esas klare preferinda. Nu, la > "problemo" esa= s facile remediebla, nam, segun semblo, **heroeno* ne ja > oficaleskis. > >= Pro quo tu dicas ke *pordo* e *plado* esas =C2=ABtre kritikita=C2=BB? Me n= e memoras > lektir irga kritiko kontre tala formi, sive en Espo, sive en Id= o... > > *pasero* restez! Ica vorto apene esas konfliktiva. Ordinare on ya = parolas > pri pasanti (homi quin on vidas pasar en la nuna instanto), ne pr= i pas-eri > (homi qui kustumale pasas)... > > > 2017-01-20 23:54 GMT+00:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Nu, til nun Esperantujo uzas =C2=ABheroino=C2=BB, m= em se lu teorie konfliktas kun >> =C2=ABhero'ino=C2=BB. >> >> Vorti tal qua= la =C2=ABkarabino=C2=BB, =C2=ABrosmarino=C2=BB =C2=ABserpentino=C2=BB, e = =C2=ABproteino=C2=BB ofras >> simila homonimeso... >> >> Tamen ni konsidere= z la risko di konflikti. Me ipsa nultempe experiencis >> konflikto inter la= Franca =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (homino) e =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2= =BB (drogo). >> >> Me probas trovar kazi di konflikto... >> >> *orhara hero= ino di nordala legendi* >> *la quaza armeo regnis la frontierala zono ... e= d uzis lu anke por >> exportacar kokaino e heroino a Usa* >> (http://www.re= ta-vortaro.de/revo/) >> >> Ka, pro tala pavoro pri konflikti e homonimi, on= devas necese deformar un >> plusa vorto, *heroeno, quale la tre kritikita = =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB? >> >> Kad on anke devas reformar nia= linguo, e remplasigar la vorto =C2=ABpasero=C2=BB, >> qua adoptesis ante l= a sufixo -er-? >> >> Me opinionas ke no. >> > >> > > --f403045d5b10e8159c0546a6d150 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Pri =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB, me forsan exaje= ris. Tamen, me ya memoras lektir pri certena kritiko:

Ne= k en Ido, nek en Esperanto, ma en la Angla, me trovis kritiko detaloza en q= ua la autoro mencionas =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB kom =C2=ABdefo= rmita en neevidenta manieri=C2=BB:=C2=A0http://miresperanto.com/konkurentoj/not_m= y_favourite.htm

Me anke kredis, ke Jespersen m= encionis kritiki pri =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB en la Interna= tional-English Dictionary, ma fakte lu nur deskriptis la decido. Mea me= morado do faliis...

2017-01-21 7:11 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

La exempli quin tu prizentis (a qui on povus ad= juntar muslino e mem florino) sendubite pruvas ke la heroinal= a homonimeso-timo esas exajerata e senfundamenta, e ke *heroino esas= klare preferinda. Nu, la "problemo" esas facile remediebla, nam,= segun semblo, *heroeno ne ja oficaleskis.

Pro quo tu dicas ke pordo e p= lado esas =C2=ABtre kritikita=C2=BB? Me ne memoras lektir irga kritiko = kontre tala formi, sive en Espo, sive en Ido...

pasero restez! Ica vorto apene esa= s konfliktiva. Ordinare on ya parolas pri pasanti (homi quin on vidas pasar= en la nuna instanto), ne pri pas-eri (homi qui kustumale pasas)...


2017-01-20 23:54 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Phili= ppe Morin gphmorin@= gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= :
= =C2=A0
=
=

Nu, til nun Esperantujo uzas =C2= =ABheroino=C2=BB, mem se lu teorie konfliktas kun =C2=ABhero'ino=C2=BB.=

Vorti tal quala =C2=ABkarabino=C2=BB, =C2=ABrosmarino= =C2=BB =C2=ABserpentino=C2=BB, e =C2=ABproteino=C2=BB ofras simila homonime= so...

Tamen ni konsiderez la risko di konflikti. M= e ipsa nultempe experiencis konflikto inter la Franca =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AF= ne=C2=BB (homino) e =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (drogo).

Me probas trovar kazi di konflikto...

or= hara heroino di nordala legendi
la quaza armeo regn= is la frontierala zono ... ed uzis lu anke por exportacar kokaino e hero= ino a Usa
<= i>
Ka, pro tala pavoro pri konflikti e homonimi, on devas= necese deformar un plusa vorto, *heroeno, quale la tre kritikita =C2=ABpor= do=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB?

Kad on anke devas re= formar nia linguo, e remplasigar la vorto =C2=ABpasero=C2=BB, qua adoptesis= ante la sufixo -er-?

Me opinionas ke no.

=


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Kad on dicas =C3=A2pen=C2=A0o ap=C3=AAn, = =C3=A2nkor=C2=A0o ank=C3=B4r?
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Sun, 22 Jan 2017 15:30:41 +0000 To: Linguolisto Thread-Topic: A bit, byte Thread-Index: AQHSdMQN94MhJe90K061sTf3qmGunA== Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 15:30:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:EE0612271D387F044C2F2F76647A348E756A3ADC689C411C426A6B8BE69B7C3E;UpperCasedChecksum:C46DC89C49D1A03D96DA9F82682788F6709C06D74B0AA91824984AEE813D02F5;SizeAsReceived:7412;Count:37 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [dxbiaxnia6fFUrssVZKuoHi9Gn1jqb1I] x-incomingheadercount: 37 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;VE1EUR02HT133;7:0ocEh6+cskobT1YBHJ2hm3jMkJrVuHqoVQ8TwI/e8YcXjUQRMM/uTtc8STTISL9e97RmC5l3H/hl+192X85lIOQsg9PDFMlWlaLSOiHPnkDJUNpESheZN/Yhr3ELbkFPqPIQw44ijukk7JrRbcdGDYYH3DFqw10cb0ubrC6I6+Fs/kv60iZj/YmE46m0QzwqoqbIawK5SLwRQyiSOh99liyvbR/CVTbRaFM+euASgBOKYPeQ1MuaUdQamTzIy2WhfwzWfdwj+D5Kv4n5PrlZ/Cx017KepRO3BoOEcom/8xIhBhYXSn7vSjoh+0+T1UmeW9woBOmTXOBRJGqzHewo6nIzCf/uNs+H05Aywq0dwYdaWLtn/8Jtl8eeqjqPc0xECZQIYManyVASAk6rcWJ+rTNGlZ1gg8cR4OfrSfAw6kPRFKmDlDsrWsWsdQMnSaTt4iZv29i5xKo5/h2h61Dqyw== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:VE1EUR02HT133;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; 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u=24528831; y=_XLISRFqKM5lNA_d81dTDA_8I9DeUFIvzvTjL5HpZmI X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB13973C9363C0E863B2F84C1EEA4730DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A "bit, byte" semblas kelka konfuza che Wikivortaro. Se bit.o esas en la L= exiko da Carnaghan 2001, pro quo ni havas anke: https://io.wiktionary.org= /wiki/bico Ka Byte esas bitoko, bicoko o *baito? Predanko --_000_DB5PR03MB13973C9363C0E863B2F84C1EEA4730DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A "bit, byte&= quot; semblas kelka konfuza che Wikivortaro.  Se bit.o esas en la Lexi= ko da Carnaghan 2001, pro quo ni havas anke:


https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/bico

=

Ka Byte esas bitoko, bicoko o *baito?


Pred= anko



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Ka =C2=ABbito=C2=BB esas oficale dusenca? En Dyer, lu esas= vorto navala. Regretinde, la Lexiko semblas ignoris ta fakto...

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 a= t 10:30 AM, James Chandler idojc@hotma= il.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =
=

A "bit, byte" semblas kelka konfuz= a che Wikivortaro.=C2=A0 Se bit.o esas en la Lexiko da Carnaghan 2001, pro = quo ni havas anke:


https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki= /bico


Ka Byte esas bitoko, bicoko o *baito?

=

Predanko



<= /div>
=

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*ignorir

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 10:44 AM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <gp= hmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
Ka =C2=ABbito=C2=BB esas oficale dusenca? En Dyer, lu esas v= orto navala. Regretinde, la Lexiko semblas ignoris ta fakto...

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 10:30 AM, James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [ling= uolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0

<= div id=3D"m_-6837795734093837658m_-6430161721725581712divtagdefaultwrapper"= dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font-family:Calibri,Aria= l,Helvetica,sans-serif">

A "bit, byte" semblas kelka konfuza c= he Wikivortaro.=C2=A0 Se bit.o esas en la Lexiko da Carnaghan 2001, pro quo= ni havas anke:


https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/bico


Ka B= yte esas bitoko, bicoko o *baito?


Predanko


=



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Sun, 22 Jan 2017 07:48:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 07:48:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 15:48:55 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c092d380ffe010546b0d2d3 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrY2VydGVuYcK7LCDCq3VsYcK7?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=rlsOfxST1cx_LdivnQgCyEImk9_FPAJJ7uijSoBIm4BBgSsPn69sJA X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --94eb2c092d380ffe010546b0d2d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Se Paulus dicas: (1) Me lektis en libro ke... (2) Me lektis en irga libro= ke... (3) Me lektis en ula libro ke... (4) Me lektis en certena libro ke= ... Per (1) Paulus volas dicar nur o precipue ke ilu lektis lo en libro (n= e en revuo, ne en jurnalo, ne en letro, ne sur muro, edc). Per (2) Paulus = volas dicar ke ilu lektis lo en libro pri qua il memoras nek la titulo, nek= la autoro, nek la jenro, nek la temo, nek la editerio, t.e. en libro pri q= ua il nun havas absolute nula ideo. Per (3) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lekt= is lo en libro pri qua il obliviis importanta detali (autoro, titulo, edc),= ma pri qua il tamen havas ideo plu o min konfuza o ne-preciza; forsan il a= nkore memoras la jenro, o la temo, o mem la cirkonstanci en qui ilu lektis = ol, do ta libro, en lua memoro, duras esar partikulara e ne intermixesas ku= n altra libri lektita o konocata. Per (4) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lektis= lo en libro pri qua il memoras importanta detali (autoro, titulo, edc), qu= in il tamen preferas tacar. Konseque: irga =3D memoreso nula ula =3D memo= reso ne-preciza certena =3D memoreso preciza, ma tacata La uzo di *certena= * povas supozigar memoreso pri lo tacata ne nur che la parolanto, ma anke c= he la askoltanto, exemple, kande Paulus dicas a Petrus: =C2=ABQuale tu sav= as, me esas kuzo di certena redaktero qua skribis diatribo kontre tu en cer= tena jurnalo...=C2=BB 2017-01-22 3:17 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphm= orin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Se me fi= das la *Plena Manlibro de Esperanta Gramatiko* (PMEG), qua esas > kelke qua= le moderna versiono di nia *Kompleta Gramatiko*: > http://bertilow.com/pmeg= /gramatiko/nombroj/vortetoj/ > unu_specialaj_uzoj.html#i-8hb > > *Certa* ha= vas interalie signifon similan al individueca *unu*, sed *certa* > estas pl= i forta. =C4=9Ci emfaze montras, ke io estas certe konata al la > parolanto= (sed ver=C5=9Dajne ne al la a=C5=ADskultanto): *En certaj okazoj multe da = > sa=C4=9Do estas pli malbona, ol se oni =C4=9Din tute ne havus. La esperan= tismo estas > forte ligita kun certa interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis min = certa sinjorino > Schmidt.* > > Do, en Ido: > > *Certena* havas interaltre = signifiko simila ad individuesala *un*, ma > *certena* esas plu forta. Ol e= mfaze montras, ke ulo esas certe konocata a > la parolanto (ma versimile ne= a la askoltanto): *En certena foyi multa > sajeso esas pli mala, kam se on= ol tote ne havus. La Esperantismo esas > forte ligita kun certena interna = ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis men certena siorino > Schmidt.* > > Ka me do pova= s konkluzar, ke la uzo di certena =C2=ABula=C2=BB dal exemplo di > *Progres= o* nun chanjis por =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB? > > *Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe dezir= as ula libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar > partikulara li= bro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar > plu ex= acte, pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas >= l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di = libro > apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB te= mo, quan me povas definar.* > > Ka, do, on skribez =C2=ABcertena speco=C2= =BB e =C2=ABcertena temo=C2=BB, o ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas > ankore valida? = > --94eb2c092d380ffe010546b0d2d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Se Paulus dicas:

(1) Me lektis en libro ke...

= (2) Me lektis en irga libro ke...

(3) Me leektis en ula libro ke...

= (4) Me lektis en certena = libro ke...

Pe= r (1) Paulus volas dicar nur o precipue ke ilu lektis lo en libro (ne en re= vuo, ne en jurnalo, ne en letro, ne sur muro, edc).

Per (2) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu l= ektis lo en libro pri qua il memoras nek la titulo, nek la autoro, nek la = jenro, nek la temo, nek la editerio, t.e. en libro pri qua il nun havas ab= solute nula ideo.

Per (3) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lektis lo en libro pri qua il oblivi= is importanta detali (autoro, titulo, edc), ma pri qua il tamen havas ideo= plu o min konfuza o ne-preciza; forsan il ankore memoras la jenro, o la = temo, o mem la cirkonstanci en qui ilu lektis ol, do ta libro, en lua memo= ro, duras esar partikulara e ne intermixesas kun altra libri lektita o kon= ocata.

Pe= r (4) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lektis lo en libro pri qua il memoras imp= ortanta detali (autoro, titulo, edc), quin il tamen preferas tacar.

=
Konseque:
irga =3D memore= so nula
ula = =3D memoreso ne-preciza
certena =3D memoreso preciza, ma tacata

La uzo di certena povas s= upozigar memoreso pri lo tacata ne nur che la parolanto, ma anke che la as= koltanto, exemple, kande Paulus dicas a Petrus:

=C2=ABQuale tu savas, me esas kuzo di cer= tena redaktero qua skribis diatribo kontre tu en certena jurnalo...=C2=BB

2017-01-22 3:17 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@y= ahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Se me fidas la P= lena Manlibro de Esperanta Gramatiko (PMEG), qua esas kelke quale moder= na versiono di nia Kompleta Gramatiko:

Certa= havas interalie signifon similan al individueca unu, sed cer= ta estas pli forta. =C4=9Ci emfaze montras, ke io estas certe konata al= la parolanto (sed ver=C5=9Dajne ne al la a=C5=ADskultanto): En certa= j okazoj multe da sa=C4=9Do estas pli malbona, ol se oni =C4=9Din tute = ne havus. La esperantismo estas forte ligita kun certa interna ideo.= Hiera=C5=AD vizitis min certa sinjorino Schmidt.

Do, en Ido:

Certena=C2=A0h= avas interaltre signifiko simila ad individuesala un, ma certena<= /i>=C2=A0esas plu forta. Ol emfaze montras, ke ulo esas certe konocata a la= parolanto (ma versimile ne a la askoltanto): En certena=C2=A0foy= i multa sajeso esas pli mala, kam se on ol tote ne havus. La Esperantismo e= sas forte ligita kun certena=C2=A0interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis = men certena=C2=A0siorino Schmidt.

Ka me do povas konkluzar, ke la uzo di certena =C2=ABula=C2=BB dal exempl= o di Progreso=C2=A0nun chanjis por =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB?
Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro=C2=BB, to= signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras lektar partikulara libro (konocata da me, o j= a lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne povas indikar plu exacte, pro ke me obliviis l= =E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min ko= nfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o rel= atanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo= , quan me povas defi= nar.

Ka, do, on skribez =C2=ABce= rtena speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABcertena temo=C2=BB, o ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas ank= ore valida?


--94eb2c092d380ffe010546b0d2d3-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4962 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 40746 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 15:54:38 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m17.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 15:54:38 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 17779 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 15:54:38 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.215.82) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 15:54:38 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.217.171 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: haib1OYWLDsJ8ttPIogBkAdFsI0dCFa2b2kWDlUyD81XG6YX TUJwcB.AS7g0nZaS8H2RQbLmmYDuXIAKcTybe54qet_035GegDb6ntRUN.w2 wHa8jOdwLqhOmGR4uFJrGiALDMEpckUJhNP4Kette4tVOyT7S0gBBj5dpaVV 0drYXlRrfDO8C8vwZ14bQXa1ID6ducg0iw3iCCWEVqnBVUVI7dJBQBFFW1xF z9I3CxhFRU.iBHct9D8TIKLVSV5ectoCD_A6GUMz0wfCuNZY.X3YjXwQw80i kDQNUKGjbSMPgtvyZi_ZuXLGnZQlDiH9WEQmnkvjWG.Q9q3RpRLlfqrfEIT1 gv2eKwOxjz4KuuhG1oqds6FWBVeGLcW47Yqyz5fXZ6J8QSrQ3_omu8tpH5av iGzeEutW3ykHE8XPHJMQ6DMvaxtrcC.KaeJuD5NPX.VfMgokD4ABxAQuJ5Rd OEh.vZbXX39QQaXuh8sOSM43q0hD7RJHPRiotVuWTA5x.kW5eP1ZSRoHO2NI oN4yler7GDuJY_Ez8ZOkeKKbtVZxFbXNT3MWxyssGkaew4gKkH39e_2be93B oF94o4woy50nvSGvIUF3IRZ0LIOsY64UvGzfha5uJeYNv0EBZ7.6phNs9b.7 tiIrgEAmEwkmE6EiMPpwtJbKE6y3HWo3aP_Bv1yQ9IT4JeAcdNPrH7jKN.yT HmO0Y7QKElIp4CD7.C3tj.P4PAGlAk_D0Mje_1KzEIDcHE9kScd2OWo_yuqc jgL1cuJnXZIqBJOq9SEUeGdarM7Zn.tJDHSF7Jnvf2kqOMw_TyOWdvjxtzhF R_lT_.kxERSrujphpuzAJvaRJJ2M_dchHmZBNLmlCli8dDs3VBv2D9gAno7R c0ABF6AdsRzOY2k4tGO4kE1px5oEZlbG2bxJuadwtLhjzBzIq6EoTiK5Rybm lc.nRfa0EPXjWirYEhTgCyr9upvsinGjL2EO813xoByKDo0TPF0UB1VlQjML aPEBy3sjeTNsErF4_S_4Sh3kJVjr2h2QGGEQLI.UvsxQKw2PjFbe6QzTTcy3 nCg0edROC_T4Jo2px343BfJ.JAySDcQ5KBFV0WN2KjtDcrqEAERy42_8fBPI BEqg90nl8yNhYF9m5GYEwbmsd6DEIzVfXnXoVUBAv5Q5KqT_4VL0a1dvzPwx JWSV4KJbts0raaZVUbWvtZUEe7qKU_ucnJRj2C2lwfiXhXCCdGiF4Hv5ruGG 72rh5FaFdPehxIgA6bgYf3FDkkZE Authentication-Results: mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-ua0-f171.google.com) (209.85.217.171) by mta1002.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 15:54:38 +0000 X-Received: by mail-ua0-f171.google.com with SMTP id 96so94630359uaq.3 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 07:54:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=NlCG/9Ca0bv34Fxy/PqqFn96o1BCs3vnu7Q07m+pSrs=; b=b54FgWrlJi436INLxKIc0p08dFE6U25oIaQqhjPx+ZWxd5IQcETbeVnxNnmWVS5SFJ MtkD2EkIApRkA8pQHeE8Tn36nXPB048cAOClNhU9qlV2pFu1QlIe4RL9ySG7RLivhkR6 op1LeieMuVtS68ylUZuz8POHRVNN8FVIPUrkjbDVWFFmfxsAdhBrmskp5i5ggOuYuThY VbqbfAQ+hrSIEIeUg6+TGWc4fmetqwIbgCAJpneTP03ngnMdZr///0gY36l46VAqsXhD zurcTYuSG3V8zE7IMeJdV77TYDQpGNuqXivY7ry4HYTpYSpmB5xsjebhDAbnRHBkaZ3n 4WWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXI8E2FWu22XekMV3+PW6SebaxoD1DPbdOkp+Lkp3xLDV48mY1KFoDASsAsy8CKyDFGxHV7hDGeSJbRGBA== X-Received: by 10.159.34.105 with SMTP id 96mr12753200uad.84.1485100477723; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 07:54:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 07:54:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 15:54:37 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fa0926e41100546b0e6f5 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrYW5rb3LCuywgwqthcGVuwrs=?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=TTGKT2cHAvib-Pxsbd6zYt7Hck7ZKbvaho-4ZWzeUBMJ2khLTk73Fg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a113fa0926e41100546b0e6f5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *apen* ed *ankor* esas oficaligita abreviuri di *apene* ed *ankore*, same k= am *milion* esas abreviuro di *miliono*. Konseque, oli konservas l'acento d= i *apene* ed *ankore*, same kam *milion* konservas l'acento di *miliono*: *= ap=C3=A9n*, *ank=C3=B3r*, *mili=C3=B3n*. 2017-01-22 5:38 GMT+00:00 Gilles-= Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Kad on dicas *=C3=A2pen* o *ap=C3=AAn*, *=C3=A2nkor* o *ank=C3= =B4r*? > --001a113fa0926e41100546b0e6f5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
apen ed ankor esa= s oficaligita abreviuri di apene ed ankore, same kam milio= n esas abreviuro di miliono. Konseque, oli konservas l'acent= o di apene ed ankore, same kam milion konservas l'= acento di miliono: ap=C3=A9n, ank=C3=B3r, mili=C3= =B3n.

2017-01-22 5:38 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Kad on dicas =C3=A2pen=C2=A0o ap=C3=AAn, =C3=A2nkor= =C2=A0o ank=C3=B4r?


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Me remarkis, lektante frua edituri di Progreso, ke = on olim skribis =C2=ABe c.=C2=BB, kun un punto.

Pro quo = on facis tala chanjo?
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Nam seg= un me, =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas dusenca. Altramaniere, la exemplo de *Progreso*= ne skribus: *adminime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o re= latanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar* Segun me, la memoreso= pri la speco e pri la temo esas preciza, ka ne? 2017-01-22 10:48 GMT-05:0= 0 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogr= oups.com>: > > > Se Paulus dicas: > > (1) Me lektis en libro ke... > > (2)= Me lektis en irga libro ke... > > (3) Me lektis en ula libro ke... > > (4)= Me lektis en certena libro ke... > > Per (1) Paulus volas dicar nur o prec= ipue ke ilu lektis lo en libro (ne en > revuo, ne en jurnalo, ne en letro, = ne sur muro, edc). > > Per (2) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lektis lo en libro= pri qua il memoras > nek la titulo, nek la autoro, nek la jenro, nek la te= mo, nek la editerio, > t.e. en libro pri qua il nun havas absolute nula ide= o. > > Per (3) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lektis lo en libro pri qua il obli= viis > importanta detali (autoro, titulo, edc), ma pri qua il tamen havas i= deo plu > o min konfuza o ne-preciza; forsan il ankore memoras la jenro, o = la temo, o > mem la cirkonstanci en qui ilu lektis ol, do ta libro, en lua = memoro, duras > esar partikulara e ne intermixesas kun altra libri lektita = o konocata. > > Per (4) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lektis lo en libro pri qu= a il memoras > importanta detali (autoro, titulo, edc), quin il tamen prefe= ras tacar. > > Konseque: > > irga =3D memoreso nula > ula =3D memoreso ne-p= reciza > certena =3D memoreso preciza, ma tacata > > La uzo di *certena* po= vas supozigar memoreso pri lo tacata ne nur che la > parolanto, ma anke che= la askoltanto, exemple, kande Paulus dicas a Petrus: > > =C2=ABQuale tu sa= vas, me esas kuzo di certena redaktero qua skribis diatribo > kontre tu en = certena jurnalo...=C2=BB > > 2017-01-22 3:17 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mori= n gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >>= >> Se me fidas la *Plena Manlibro de Esperanta Gramatiko* (PMEG), qua esas= >> kelke quale moderna versiono di nia *Kompleta Gramatiko*: >> http://ber= tilow.com/pmeg/gramatiko/nombroj/vortetoj/unu_ >> specialaj_uzoj.html#i-8hb= >> >> *Certa* havas interalie signifon similan al individueca *unu*, sed >= > *certa* estas pli forta. =C4=9Ci emfaze montras, ke io estas certe konata= al >> la parolanto (sed ver=C5=9Dajne ne al la a=C5=ADskultanto): *En cert= aj okazoj >> multe da sa=C4=9Do estas pli malbona, ol se oni =C4=9Din tute = ne havus. La >> esperantismo estas forte ligita kun certa interna ideo. Hie= ra=C5=AD vizitis min >> certa sinjorino Schmidt.* >> >> Do, en Ido: >> >> *= Certena* havas interaltre signifiko simila ad individuesala *un*, ma >> *ce= rtena* esas plu forta. Ol emfaze montras, ke ulo esas certe konocata >> a l= a parolanto (ma versimile ne a la askoltanto): *En certena foyi multa >> sa= jeso esas pli mala, kam se on ol tote ne havus. La Esperantismo esas >> for= te ligita kun certena interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis men certena siorino= >> Schmidt.* >> >> Ka me do povas konkluzar, ke la uzo di certena =C2=ABul= a=C2=BB dal exemplo di >> *Progreso* nun chanjis por =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB? >= > >> *Ma se me dicas: =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2= =ABMe deziras >> lektar partikulara libro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),= =C2=BB quan me ne povas >> indikar plu exacte, pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80= =99autoro, o la titulo: ma me tamen >> havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min konfu= za di ta libro, e ne di altra: adminime, di >> libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABu= la=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas >> definar.*= >> >> Ka, do, on skribez =C2=ABcertena speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABcertena temo=C2= =BB, o ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas >> ankore valida? >> > > > > --f403045eadda9b9eae0546b1785a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ka vere =C2=ABula=C2=BB reprezentas =C2=ABmemoreso nepreci= za=C2=BB? Nam segun me, =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas dusenca. Altramaniere, la exem= plo de Progreso=C2=A0ne skribus:

adminime, di = libro apartenanta ad =C2=AB= ula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar

Segun me, la memores= o pri la speco e pri la temo esas preciza, ka ne?

2017-01-22 10:48 GMT-05:00 Gon= =C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

<= /p>

Se Paulus dicas:

(1) Me lektis en libro ke...

(2) Me lektis en irga libro ke...
<= /font>

(3) Me lektis en ula libro ke...

<= /span>
(4) Me lektis en certe= na libro ke...

Per (1) Paulus volas dicar nur o precipue ke ilu lektis lo en libro (ne en= revuo, ne en jurnalo, ne en letro, ne sur muro, edc).

Per (2) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu= lektis lo en libro pri qua il memoras nek la titulo, nek la autoro, nek l= a jenro, nek la temo, nek la editerio, t.e. en libro pri qua il nun havas = absolute nula ideo.

Per (3) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lektis lo en libro pri qua il obli= viis importanta detali (autoro, titulo, edc), ma pri qua il tamen havas id= eo plu o min konfuza o ne-preciza; forsan il ankore memoras la jenro, o la= temo, o mem la cirkonstanci en qui ilu lektis ol, do ta libro, en lua me= moro, duras esar partikulara e ne intermixesas kun altra libri lektita o k= onocata.

= Per (4) Paulus volas dicar ke ilu lektis lo en libro pri qua il memoras i= mportanta detali (autoro, titulo, edc), quin il tamen preferas tacar.
Konseque:
<= br>
irga =3D memo= reso nula
ula= =3D memoreso ne-preciza
certena =3D memoreso preciza, ma tacata

La uzo di certena povas = supozigar memoreso pri lo tacata ne nur che la parolanto, ma anke che la a= skoltanto, exemple, kande Paulus dicas a Petrus:

=C2=ABQuale tu savas, me esas kuzo di ce= rtena redaktero qua skribis diatribo kontre tu en certena jurnalo...=C2=BB<= /span>

2017-01-22 3:17 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Se me fidas la Plena Manlibro de Esperanta Gramati= ko (PMEG), qua esas kelke quale moderna versiono di nia Kompleta Gra= matiko:

Certa havas interalie signifon simi= lan al individueca unu, sed certa estas pli forta. =C4=9Ci em= faze montras, ke io estas certe konata al la parolanto (sed ver=C5=9Dajne n= e al la a=C5=ADskultanto): En certaj okazoj multe da sa=C4=9Do es= tas pli malbona, ol se oni =C4=9Din tute ne havus. La esperantismo estas fo= rte ligita kun certa interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis min certa<= /b> sinjorino Schmidt.

Do, en Ido:
=

Certena=C2=A0havas interaltre signifiko simila a= d individuesala un, ma certena=C2=A0esas plu forta. Ol emfaze= montras, ke ulo esas certe konocata a la parolanto (ma versimile ne a la a= skoltanto): En certena=C2=A0foyi multa sajeso esas pli mala, kam = se on ol tote ne havus. La Esperantismo esas forte ligita kun certena=C2=A0interna ideo. Hiera=C5=AD vizitis men certena=C2=A0siorino Sc= hmidt.

Ka me do povas konkluzar, ke la = uzo di certena =C2=ABula=C2=BB dal exemplo di Progreso=C2=A0nun chan= jis por =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB?

Ma se me dicas: = =C2=ABMe deziras ula libro=C2=BB, to signifikas: =C2=ABMe deziras le= ktar partikulara libro (konocata da me, o ja lektita),=C2=BB quan me ne pov= as indikar plu exacte, pro ke me obliviis l=E2=80=99autoro, o la titulo: ma= me tamen havas l=E2=80=99ideo plu o min konfuza di ta libro, e ne di altra= : adminime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB ttemo, quan me povas definar.
Ka, do, on skribez =C2=ABcertena speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABcerten= a temo=C2=BB, o ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas ankore valida?


<= /div>
<= /div>

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Bone! Danko.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 10:54 AM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

apen ed ankor esas ofical= igita abreviuri di apene ed ankore, same kam milion es= as abreviuro di miliono. Konseque, oli konservas l'acento di = apene ed ankore, same kam milion konservas l'acento d= i miliono: ap=C3=A9n, ank=C3=B3r, mili=C3=B3n.<= br>
2017-01-22 5:38 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Mori= n gphmorin@gmail.co= m [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:=
=
=C2=A0
=
<= div id=3D"m_-3267303558960082784m_-7417830503376660841ygrp-text"> =

Kad on dicas =C3=A2pen=C2=A0o = ap=C3=AAn, =C3=A2nkor=C2=A0o ank=C3=B4r?


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--f403045d5b10af5dbe0546b182e7-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4966 Return-Path: X-Sender: gneves64@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 19713 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 16:45:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m15.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 16:45:53 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 31195 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 16:45:53 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com) (98.138.100.119) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 16:45:53 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.213.43 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: lt3Sd3kWLDsQwlnD7JqLTYOBlCy9Z1yHVTAntH59S89wfdxC a43xWTub.q1khLyBJlkQYImJM.mnJh3Xr5a16PKJZWkx4d.1ocEJU9nKI2FW XNWtaWzgKxNVstip4t66WkltJfbVaTL1l5BNtpfyXWDAJv8XxzPGyPoCtuLn W_btDhqHlIOVhN9bA3kFhoBYCjYLT9Z4HRWJCes6JHH.IE5s2SUEqnoJH6zF UyYKOdVTHL6pmhQJKDK5tV3lWrvwzG3zG1WgQnq5wDQbzVjw0XrOwfaeWQYa CsEQkB8YRmmRz0KQLj60cmcHmZWvOwfRf4nfp2ShF2.cUpHS52vbYk9npjtE l88vkiV3.1tl_P2E4jqBxwXOLvpcLG6RaqhhkdNzhkYQY5FVQ2SaE10XjejZ 9eTkPOQmLv1tL6PLCFZA8UmfkbBIK5J9TsmOypueco.J3g_4.FUnsID9zA6. QtywW0B8tevGrdQ5sca119wYAhHvN4mXn6JbgcgVaXQqlFMaiLK3jq.Cd9VV BbrNbfKwmy8LhTO6OgqicV5Qa4Dp5xJv98iX50W.XKTH17pAUndOGZlaoN8k xsjHmR_0.bhVqTk6jycXHlElznngKluzRZjsm417kNwfUxuH4GiLbSnfUWJr tkSTgylvwARvVRsYGN21fjvb4kcktMnuh.AQUEv5NsyZ_0JSQSdO0xkmJJuw 8vgC6kBiYB1qwRwTZ2I3XnZiNrZjQwvDh9je14P0412EiIa21UlrZR9SUJ9M uhMYkrqM5CKI12vVjbI9qWkFAvgid6E9C6O8szU96.m_OsUXBmk3nex7lTnu 0aA0LrKENK9xhMdMtHc1.i8OvkihwIJ7taWodqbryCdRsJ1opKcWU2cVPNO2 DamB5xh0Zh3xmo8z3eIm5RzI3.rv1RwQ4HLmixRwhUHL96HzXfZaZKq087Wi fvAM3KiwKIVmg43uOIFEF5EVH9hdH1XPUBLt3wLIL1_aiKfUIA_cM70TDrB3 BlKvAfkyQaz4SWouXR6VGPXiUMxv87rnVhCvHX5p0yE_Z91zbkxsQJ8gvCrz DIyVbfOAVezDrIniVXzQH_20RxTmqzFI4aGgGwd1_0foYWpdWY1CETFlB0kA 8FPuwCj9ot0K7OMzZIye20vxnxgumMNCT60X6lRtf73PbpLXYlM8rWbLtDfX .baoZH4qtw18AagPqz2._AnR7aBAURPirQkHuG5874CEQ1sbwyT_KTbbaNy4 8yOTtqoS4QHOkpQe09Da8wtR42xM.e.ozKmGCUcX Authentication-Results: mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-vk0-f43.google.com) (209.85.213.43) by mta1004.groups.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:45:53 +0000 X-Received: by mail-vk0-f43.google.com with SMTP id t8so77792012vke.3 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 08:45:53 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=njh5idsHYANUtL8UbKpflhIlK/44ftTu4nfXXFiptCU=; b=KJUlazunFWAzy329Rf4cF/R1HCu2HlhVWdrrGfyhkzhKyVSfTEV5Tu+tI4YitMFmRO N+iHfBRb6FaTTGqWNEvfznwiujMbGL2a2VspbyfsDakJOaoBfTr+ajHxwpTRZ3mMh3F5 LmKkRrhiWycZYUEQkLrvcMe4GFuwjNXJ0K86wRV09V9H5KFE2o0DyXeh+AEMUAdDnejI uwG8PvH+S6jrjvBTqNBlktqnYtvjWPjji/+YSCzFtpcc4dS7mxgR+J4F622NiRxVEgEF XjzW8+7zK7NZPAKxAb8LEU5VHwnEfJLdg5tihKBIpXTgqY1a/DwoNXJLDS4Zk0/oeaaz M12A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKSWcbCpcdTkqLqoP24lBu7dazRjNywt/d4WFLf2hrogGLkdzyW3Y8+XvUlQtuhptKZLYowO4+msvKNIA== X-Received: by 10.31.59.137 with SMTP id i131mr11773968vka.7.1485103552441; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 08:45:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.103.144.68 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 08:45:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:45:51 +0000 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11441904b2b8590546b19dc7 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrY2VydGVuYcK7LCDCq3VsYcK7?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=532016623; y=lAAeB7DlOk_CnHmgMyNEyt1BbtASFCeFYikj3ebsn_XMO3JOv3mdQg X-Yahoo-Profile: goncalo_neves From: =?UTF-8?Q?Gon=C3=A7alo_Neves?= --001a11441904b2b8590546b19dc7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, la memoreso pri la speco e pri la temo povas esar preciza, ma, se on m= emoras nur la speco e la temo e tote ne memoras, exemple, la autoro e la ti= tulo, la memoreso pri la libro kom totajo (autoro, titulo, speco, temo, edc= ) povas esar ne-preciza. Evidente la limiti inter "ula" e "certena" ne esas= tote rigida e dependas anke de la memoranto e de lua percepto di lo memori= nda e memorenda pri la koncernata objekto. 2017-01-22 16:35 GMT+00:00 Gill= es-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Ka vere =C2=ABula=C2=BB reprezentas =C2=ABmemoreso nepreciza= =C2=BB? Nam segun me, =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas > dusenca. Altramaniere, la exem= plo de *Progreso* ne skribus: > > *adminime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=AB= ula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, > quan me povas definar* = > > Segun me, la memoreso pri la speco e pri la temo esas preciza, ka ne? >= > --001a11441904b2b8590546b19dc7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes, la memoreso pri la speco e= pri la temo povas esar preciza, ma, se on memoras nur la speco e la temo e= tote ne memoras, exemple, la autoro e la titulo, la memoreso pri la libro = kom totajo (autoro, titulo, speco, temo, edc) povas esar ne-preciza. Eviden= te la limiti inter "ula" e "certena" ne esas tote rigid= a e dependas anke de la memoranto e de lua percepto di lo memorinda e memor= enda pri la koncernata objekto.

2017-01-22 16:35 GMT+00:00 Gil= les-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:<= br>
=C2=A0
=

Ka vere =C2=ABula=C2=BB reprezentas =C2=ABmemores= o nepreciza=C2=BB? Nam segun me, =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas dusenca. Altramaniere= , la exemplo de Progreso=C2=A0ne skribus:

admi= nime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, quan me povas definar

Segun me, l= a memoreso pri la speco e pri la temo esas preciza, ka ne?

=
--001a11441904b2b8590546b19dc7-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4967 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 23355 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 17:45:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 17:45:03 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 23468 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 17:45:03 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 17:45:03 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 8mgkAk4WLDvZiEqTp1_XRZ6Zd27yZn4ypx.A3tuRC9yjOtHq kS5nlgpryhdHRZHDqHN55gi8I4vw.AKJC99i8YQXWiCG3AyBs3_TIF97r6q7 OxpSVWJ_cMbXcP56GixGtb46Nf5bFvxhsfLAdxxsx4pBkiBD_utcUJih6N5p gl66aW04aodArEcjfhcQpvWQKLduraw8RmBGhzBl0egynBQyVnqGBtCj5wku 2ZD75nHgky_Zma76WqY3_.yLJyLq9Gn5nziLaRMML43klqAQJPWlNHBzGOvY NwE.17K1Ni9ZgOQjhq6dXN3ucutfgRNa1wXleVpsQdocuIJ8FEo3.JXbzuL3 Lt8WVYwQrGM.FFykSjzhH.0C.Lzeu4JL8ZV5hqOjN5Zh3PvIxq2MAUIVxBIX NHiOAJ2BztmVuZQzqDi2uaAvq.RTDMxA8GlotBilFEWmSThjCUQmNlYI2lGB s2CC4OomZ1pf5Pqma9JEL_wHyc5_ENe2gNC4Jgzo9w6l6YfIXLLdLBjLpuKf ke5peMu9kHtmf2pYeeihbRSNY4fXf4gx1xwmHyl_aVVShEsN6Hau6fVZuevI u..ONJaqYN8HeiFqNsJcPhD6mxxM5dO3Tvt3pvk0aoqVg4lVK8qUXpapzssx Tt4Hm1UU1pjqJY8X2P7hdKl6iijZDw.q3yMqTRBgb1jP7Mn9hH2ga6YpG7B8 l024uOGjpyivKDostP1lZJR7hcaKvyPNRMDhPzCUXhVRpP18yXhVDXZbNDkI 93Qq7Lv78ArLWKAM.gQHRxhITnBqUkibFvMxPcZfbRtcdHz96UbfJVUtTObx L99taiVYv8N2sgcHi0WM29TA8Upj6l0yqrh.4sNMA_Pl2a9gGWz94KzXljJK DLFrS14Wk1ANhYAZKGqCd0xNlJyxxErjLyhw3q3_5WFMyeD4wjtyQ3OUHMVD 4.6xDW7W0Usn7dUMeSPkk8swl1M7yC1vcvxMPCXmaD5FBtKGzlqU_c1NSh8b APxxxfXVecA.DBFRQyE.aAXagDRT_nLBd2xyG_dUTt7bn7lKUBoN8VXyMO16 ciI4phA5xZdBWmS40_wSXtJ0NI9rdgCFFzAEIxfmrWzq1jYw8UhX6ZSdxldR Z5X.YovXI_iMmDqniQIi9tmBsAgoOyJz4nTz0rpfgcbZSpai1oVmPpJBLZJl tZt7_jnmgLe7IV0DD.dZwif9ITg5qR3fI7Mi30nxk9FScBYL0Rgu9KYN.NUw 05wMXgubaZDod06ArzNqag3K3B88pak1cpVQ9X_WEk4C2BVXK_tZCwTT8Mel i5HQe9c8VX8xr3RvkoTGpLJbeSe0lblGWo.6TclCpOz8TXD21.Mp9DcHk3nu 7nTz_3USKzpEfb_4jHA05g86vMNMSLr5oash4eHz7VOiDF56jk6AJw3sCkaD XQxgdYJZd.d2eP5PH02pSulg759W8hxRWZ0N57uyyfFqWdhk1kDWI4bXKT0d 3tenfX4itViG2Ie9WgobeP_ugFRItXdgymw5WaUuPev.VMlXgIEW37lPuGzs WpQeALDkiy9Su5m60iCgYWjXGtH.Y_hHc9WpiiieJ7q5eZPJ7QZyOKOG7OE- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f44.google.com) (74.125.82.44) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 17:45:03 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f44.google.com with SMTP id r126so102702053wmr.0 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:45:02 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=BoXsonPmoSy11GLtVpyzdwnmb9L/9phyGT88+OLewfQ=; b=EmE9in/9nAO5wYbbs+qbKoBLj2jenDbh2CbeLVGYPALarJfWUbWACLgZ20eBCz98t0 Xu/0NTYCL4tYwlYWt5jeGvKhZS7rZcOKl3M1zxWoQtKD2duuXo5r4q6FTEzEaMtWZKc6 2oWPWiSEyc+aqTNdPz5ZR0V/dsJDVYtv1gdE5yl7asVJsbVBwdNM/bDGPmc1DSnHN/G7 fw8UZYkdtRkejhcLqR//tn8TfV9msSVoH+z+WFm1Fxb8yUfLUwdPhBlqSeM3NxgPYNWQ qn+JZUrW0/7WARwF6wi4v7nkzTZyO4JJ3TuW89pKjwd2EQ9k9ddeJK3qFBqvN0rmPAPx UQWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLBblXNF0XYzNg+Muyd7qTVP6N8qKeEygrpt2eaI3nCfV+rGd3+sz6E98xi3sthc0D+uMA5JGrTnVaLEw== X-Received: by 10.28.139.141 with SMTP id n135mr10235324wmd.50.1485106781273; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:39:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 09:39:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 12:39:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11442cc226c82f0546b25efb Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrY2VydGVuYcK7LCDCq3VsYcK7?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11442cc226c82f0546b25efb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do on uzez =C2=ABula speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABula temo=C2=BB pro ke la totajo (l= ibro) esas nepreciza? 2017-01-22 11:45 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves= 64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Yes, la m= emoreso pri la speco e pri la temo povas esar preciza, ma, se on > memoras = nur la speco e la temo e tote ne memoras, exemple, la autoro e la > titulo,= la memoreso pri la libro kom totajo (autoro, titulo, speco, temo, > edc) p= ovas esar ne-preciza. Evidente la limiti inter "ula" e "certena" ne > esas = tote rigida e dependas anke de la memoranto e de lua percepto di lo > memor= inda e memorenda pri la koncernata objekto. > > 2017-01-22 16:35 GMT+00:00 = Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Ka vere =C2=ABula=C2=BB reprezentas =C2=ABmemoreso = nepreciza=C2=BB? Nam segun me, =C2=ABula=C2=BB esas >> dusenca. Altramanier= e, la exemplo de *Progreso* ne skribus: >> >> *adminime, di libro apartenan= ta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relatanta =C2=ABula=C2=BB temo, >> quan me po= vas definar* >> >> Segun me, la memoreso pri la speco e pri la temo esas pr= eciza, ka ne? >> >> > > --001a11442cc226c82f0546b25efb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Do on uzez =C2=ABula speco=C2=BB e =C2=ABula temo=C2=BB pr= o ke la totajo (libro) esas nepreciza?

=
2017-01-22 11:45 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
= =C2=A0

Yes, la memoreso pri la speco e pri la = temo povas esar preciza, ma, se on memoras nur la speco e la temo e tote ne= memoras, exemple, la autoro e la titulo, la memoreso pri la libro kom tota= jo (autoro, titulo, speco, temo, edc) povas esar ne-preciza. Evidente la li= miti inter "ula" e "certena" ne esas tote rigida e depe= ndas anke de la memoranto e de lua percepto di lo memorinda e memorenda pri= la koncernata objekto.

2017-01-22 16:35 GMT+= 00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com>:
=C2=A0

Ka vere =C2=AB= ula=C2=BB reprezentas =C2=ABmemoreso nepreciza=C2=BB? Nam segun me, =C2=ABu= la=C2=BB esas dusenca. Altramaniere, la exemplo de Progreso=C2=A0ne = skribus:

adminime, di libro apartenanta ad =C2=ABula=C2=BB speco o relata= nta =C2=ABula=C2=BB = temo, quan me povas definar=
Segun me, la memoreso pri la speco e pri la temo es= as preciza, ka ne?


=

--001a11442cc226c82f0546b25efb-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4968 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 37681 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 21:54:34 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.32) by m16.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 21:54:34 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 6250 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 21:54:34 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq1.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 21:54:34 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: eyEyk18WLDvwJMnLuRCKhyae3RnSqrtFbGmNDrnudPCM4sxH xZ.pfHRFDfn7G2Z0jmlhZk5ncu_cpc9Cux9BC_sXFBWuUZ73unWhOPvFOPzF 4Vyl7GAQNToLMcK21z8grcXqP24PP9jnquh8DBlvSZnksFapatZbBDhwC1Yp tTxZLsfXJYzeZ5e7DgDChljW5qcwlfwt2WWTPMxK7a1_8RERsFrITZR0ygci mlV8ew2EnahwYIjcmI6TYvnsTyLqYqH0ww2JbqXvlHcTEfmv90LFDf.2qlXO AIETWjBe1aFtKTV5Yxlxx4gMxHwePFJe0dJhxuIa.x4dl_qDxRwi.Wmqkm0P wkzV3ZzlCBsrZ9Dz.xzWqBixllbYA57woejGvzukhFl5yXfb_Pf1WQVNFNec ur5YK33tutZydqDq2sQNYdy7CBizcxgImfD.6qv5IoDVTTeIoUGK0D1pA16U oqGpsDrV3fVpMR7nyHpuQmlnXzcMHhY8dLKj334Fj2zhyz9UpCLqyPHhqYhE .e0XXI0MyX_uh5AzQ0mlkqVKfqvkJCVZJsguxgt50DciRJrIZs.MvHdfRN3V LyBnBqfsCfz_WgsGkB5qJnn9lEMayhm02C5XNxjpSknHdEQS77lkYVHouMra OQQFtgFzYdGkm0uCpWqvtKNGNEsCqdKUNgAj0HLjNC8A..WRTcFf9mpLvoic 4CGx0y6SOlv_0.y7oqQucWw.S_PZoqBUQONQwX0DYNxcXAginsBmGMp3ZYHz bdjRixf4MNQQc18tqNw4r58NDRLhPFECUw_296C.b3tdQQXb8TaphHwmiYv_ LdSrniyD3unMB29aZ77t7eriwo5bYr9fAFbznNq3Q_hOe4W2fLJx3TpQn5mR cuBzD8JzPZexHG30FqP3gwJ1pRHUiqkyQhcKoxdZ33qD57FaWrVfVmtx.L1F pCOSogYGdOB23VlSO2zmTUwJOOJq8j48zyb_OArVmDHYWck8EmhkJI.GdJzG z9RkueHvNWCHOh.YEQn84KyGP9NU7LZ8R0NyNsw388HuTXo9ZvH4WG._KQQW YMpZKYiH9l8ntJqav7cuXyup3e43CuWe5ooHMj_GdnRwP9ixHc.xePVKwlZT a12sbxzt8HkRetNFfx154TX9etOdNhpv2dZ7xZdQ2CLZZqsm1inhcKqq30lW 4RNuH6nryYBwIn7Do2cy7ay6H4s8KKSBb_qR5kXySMKcP5123Ts_i1VPWaTN F5yY2NRmN3aqOzBZebL4Vvh8HAIoyVE_NXzX7RR_lOgk1Bnofx4lN_lP72sI cUC3MZMx9ChHewViVHIL2bDBRKYyuFnYfAi7rniUw30aQZl4U26eYwVbsnPW u1iEZVR7WfmT.y8TSuJ.IOWXUTQScaMxiVb1d8oRyU7UonxIaURfkO2yjgRR k57EVJuSXBVWh0A_WT_j33M1KCNKmeHvEl0kzBgAB4Jx.eh6xwaXv8FUnG_p MiznTET7dqwgahFB8m109ppEMQ0eUbAaCv66YX__9pHtKn02qdasdtYyMmTn W3lNpLlk2dHIC7rIsJlDOAJLIBJg_ef6TAzI8By9rIDbirgqBs7iFViHKWo- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f44.google.com) (74.125.82.44) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 21:54:34 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f44.google.com with SMTP id d140so28761257wmd.0 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 13:54:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=gBnSctBKRHKFou0goE3LcC1R3SrniurA2r8updGbCsI=; b=UAQyMJ8YCgId/VS3+VaaNPAn/ILYImvtIk7Ue37Ghw7UeyT+HxPqYcfI/xPet1zi6v CsYWmcNrAtDJAK9fZrIWh0FSIKkjcjJpCW7CEyfI8Tzfmap9s3KCQdy02NP/CeOyXUpw jUXJSm9TJJyCUm/p6epkJ4YX2cMSdrNmsXpoYYz85Q/gOXDILXtLSOTKcPxUznlOFMYR 6S4MslFmKzVK5bM/wsEkGUow7H26GrudfYT1EqVvNT/ExTLyaHu06B49nt/Xu8jbNzy5 kpsOnwCkHno7Sldxn0mRsSlh0cu1fE8Q87DCnGEP4YSbZcu65Uwe1/efDVmouOvcVRgp 8xEQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXKhyhJTn0P+zrWCTt4nWCF4w9vBnuAHaPCZCzpvbuWx+MLU/y4I5Uv8OHqArHLXwU9S9W+SR+Z21ce2QA== X-Received: by 10.223.173.183 with SMTP id w52mr25000638wrc.164.1485121687168; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 13:48:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 13:48:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2017119144055.173979@D9B5MN3J> Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 16:48:06 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045d585e9cad830546b5d6c7 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrR2VuaXRvcm/Cuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045d585e9cad830546b5d6c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Danko pro la informo! Ma parvenigis la mesajo a mea amiko. Irgakaze, lu ju= dikas =C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB e =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB kom neutila, tote quale = =C2=ABmatro=C2=BB, nam lu opinionas, ke esus plu simpla uzar *patro epicene= , quale olim... pro kohero kun la altra nomi di rilati familiala (onklo, fi= lio, avo, nepo, frato, e.c.). Kun kordiala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-0= 1-21 21:24 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] < = linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Mem se la vorti *genitinto* e *genitor= o* eventuale referas sempre ad > identa persono, od altre dicite, mem se ge= nitinto sempre esas genitoro e > genitoro sempre esas genitinto (nun me ne = volas diskutar tala detali > "teknikal"), oli ne esas, meaopinione, sinonim= i. La vorto *genitinto* > derivesas de la verbo *genitar*; konseque ol semp= re kontenas, portas e > komunikas, explicite od implicite, forte o feble, m= ilde o severe, esencal > ideo pri genital organi, fekundigo, spermo ed ovul= o. La vorto *genitoro* > signifikas =C2=ABpatro o matro=C2=BB. Or la vorti = *patro* e *matro* tote ne > kontenas, portas o komunikas tal ideo. Oli esas= vorti qui, kontree, emfazas > precipue la familiala e sociala rolo di la "= genitinti". Pluse, la vorto > *genitinto* referas ad unika instanto pasinta= , ordinare ja tre fora, > kontre ke la vorti *patro* e *matro* (e, konseque= , *genitoro*) referas a > plura periodi di la familiala vivo, ad infanteso,= puereso, pubereso, > adoleco, e mem pose, ad adultesko ed adulteso, ad omn= a evi dum qui la filii > kreskas e matureskas, do a tota vivo, nam on nulte= mpe cesas esar patro o > matro (e, konseque, genitoro). > > La fakto ke *ge= nitor *en la Franca ed Angla (same kam *progenitor* en la > Hispana e *geni= tore* en la Itala) signifikas nur =C2=ABbiologiala genitoro=C2=BB ne > sign= ifikas ke la vorto *genitoro* ne povas aquirar senco plu ampla en Ido > ed = esar uzata anke por expresar nova familiala relati en la moderna socio, > q= ui inkluzas anke genitori "ne-biologiala", quale sugestis Robert. Advere, >= en Ido la vorti ne sempre signifikas exakte lo sama kam en la fonto-lingui= . > Exemple, la vorto *dindo* devenas de la Franca *dinde*, qua signifikas = > nur =C2=ABdindino=C2=BB, ma en Ido *dindo* signifikas ne nur =C2=ABdindin= o=C2=BB, ma anke > =C2=ABdindulo=C2=BB. Do nulo impedas *genitoro* extensar= sua senco segun la sociala > bezoni e preferi dal Idisti. > > 2017-01-19 1= 5:13 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Robert, me ne konkordas, nam en la F= ranca e la Angla =C2=ABgenitor=C2=BB esas la >> strikta nomo por biologiala= patro o matro=E2=80=A6 E ni ja olim havis diskuto pri >> la filozofio di = =C2=ABgenitado=C2=BB. On ya povas argumentar pri la vera signifiko di >> = =C2=ABgenitar=C2=BB. >> >> > > --f403045d585e9cad830546b5d6c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Danko pro la informo! Ma parvenigis la mesajo a mea amiko.=

Irgakaze, lu judikas =C2=ABgenitinto=C2=BB e =C2=ABgeni= toro=C2=BB kom neutila, tote quale =C2=ABmatro=C2=BB, nam lu opinionas, ke = esus plu simpla uzar *patro epicene, quale olim... pro kohero kun la altra = nomi di rilati familiala (onklo, filio, avo, nepo, frato, e.c.).
=
Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


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per grand intereso me lektas preske multa mesaji en ica forumo.
Me prizas la voloraza komenti dil experti.
Tamen, ka la  direciono  es justa ? NI ya bezonas regardo vers lo necesa.
Yen mesajo ek la Facebook , forumo "Ido".
Javier Vega Bravo
questionas

Me havas problemo en trovar vortaro pri nova ("technologies") Ube esas ico vortaro en reto  questionas



--------------615DC1FCCC141E242952499F--- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4970 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 31957 invoked by uid 102); 22 Jan 2017 22:23:51 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.143) by m10.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 22:23:51 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 24192 invoked from network); 22 Jan 2017 22:23:51 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.164) by mtaq4.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jan 2017 22:23:51 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: 2jlFapYWLDt7KpyshVNiIH1VTjEPICl0BVlEetztqJOvNjBd 3siyPWib3ZIy7DxInxBE60XPuMBjV3gW4sKhAg9quYtQJCXTSWARlYIGUIJ9 NQXgJdU4R5xRhPJpM9UaSYYpkC4QlB4Ix6TqkMm4e.k2b60cCyrHmIpza.3v 79e81TIiYBIGnau8WeO1upHFsFDTzbRYpdDrqQ32RQbFmSe09MNhhBLr4LqC w.0dXrGCaX7KAWlzaFzHgS1I9wdyncrKHuPpg4pgvPiZJylUBVbQqRvJea1B o.8ONLTEsLFZHePKU104G0VsWI6yRsDOHmVQwPYGr1VDt8Pm0Rn234KTRscY m5xlJ6bLlkHtcYLSSniAmOBBQd.1aIf4B7YpovlNz9jfXKR90brTTW2rZJWQ 4ASyIqFryEcpR2kq5BbpJy8sCJ_VsKz0urjE50vkZDWMlhYHGWBqnxghQjCC l.bCeQ9vDIsgBSg63aR_849dgkKHeMM0Tj5KKP4Y6CJLQfUbUwNeRJ20TIzF j9jCFCXkpnoLZDX.anP_IRb4gu9XqcKmPVh7ZJVs1QtKIXiKDXNTOXzqlZrS thMPQ58f2wDcj0K.5cX7VzcbztBM_rR1cDcTD57jWy2i6UazmGEg6h54P.aY 3KvZmTFxk6nq.0XyGhh5EZ4_G5lQd8q_mlqj4DRWL.s9lmyPMpPpOyLgLWwn CrIASzb7QFrMGPQ4oUnCi.RNPOICfAiKqpGuF0VBDMy5L3W99.hAuVbxxug8 I0nVHPtrAqwXC1QquaAi_jKacFq4l8VE0B30QORbCH4adG_ytycWlV5wGVZw EZSV_u9JiaSqrSCTX6D2ZTfTas4xYc6_SY28zyeDcj1e2nS8APjyMGMikp9T 6wMvDFlWI9o3_sl95.E29_i2ERE._uJKsBWAShx6gMq1Ji_1dfQjfolg_kl7 suL3W8rzya0ZdwyHWNhLq1JMH1SGNgYjnlOvDj5aE1iamiGB2zqIjooGaWbf OylfGkjUzLDytCT9dadw5ULtEm5DL7.NXdH_2Pvp5z479.ogfwpuCsp2UR1p oBEpYXZX9M6a07rE2hQqJbe0IzpfmLjhs9W0xQJMB35Xgpr1PqJ3uz5Od.EP ZaqR7vm9QibipW6IwzrlI.tekyD6VsFtMyoIqEZ6ZBseKKiYsl03dJ_meBSD tdOeenlLpCnGOaWBYNMQW8tNcSG1mV__dRyN0MVEISw_RA3W8CQOoPaH0dVG 06PYsmR_GOK_T35F4SDrHFdvCDKvJMvg57yU6PSGYkPIRT5vB3wd8kF3du0Q KRc12Hi_1vouV.m0bIGFh.p7uyK5kkwQFAf4Rmo25HtUhKpfAv..v_Yor0IE m6tyZPI2vHyJWxX61m4tLodBPh_kUpi_UMoqGPUYEzh6XpQTYVzvGQQXrhs6 a8wxVPPjmJ6CyfRvo_mEM8SRrqJ_38UUDrIwj7.qWQ3GKTiNIbUfdOvR6wJI MMVbq2wDczxohXNgBFcyWNz5CYslgqt9kpxJbI0XJLRusAHOnzkTEfNtOHXX CJgMSRb94xLtkef.tUvBPVic875NFC2LPsRvodYyvrBJDd7h0.2sGeQo4K6I 3Ci2_x2UcUjYM40YVRzNF9Y- Authentication-Results: mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f51.google.com) (74.125.82.51) by mta1005.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 22:23:51 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f51.google.com with SMTP id r144so127183683wme.1 for ; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 14:23:50 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=4ryNNzzhC7Y7t649yg6k1MgT5cWplHrj97bV+2irPJE=; b=CMrD9MkKigRXymLabNufR3krA3Geditc27t6qNQjsJmOr3weRO5UW8sWOvrQSaVqjG 9fe4j6P4YyRf9Gj7Gf2/1PiGVALMZCRNHUMz7C/ZzcKYUf7Y1NFdka/FOGMsI9aY4f9R Sci4sAFXpqowoM4QFde206eakAFDpIcZD0bP2Ry8QNbXWNJWnaNrq6f8IjX0wYuZq9Bh Hu+rFg8Lf7tFVP+YsJmiLstJhnrx7ERlVRN0aLeShEDi8K++YY35nLNbRiUBMVPlE+eR 31TUjNqGzX7bc7F6Qb/g4olHw2UBmbX/kRHNDQgpnMymobAwIxRwPSmhH8yZ7hqqFkeL 3C3A== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLpJKmsMmSgBnEh1phWmEVk/DSUMslhvEH605V8t+8wEHHlJ3+03jzcDjaYEQt2EuVzycMIjq68ZobTbw== X-Received: by 10.28.139.141 with SMTP id n135mr10719405wmd.50.1485123829799; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 14:23:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sun, 22 Jan 2017 14:23:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 17:23:49 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11442cc252a2520546b65698 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrY2VydGVuYcK7LCDCq3VsYcK7?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11442cc252a2520546b65698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Eberhard, La dicionario ne plus funcionas: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido= /dyer_dictionary_web/ Espereble, Konstantin Yegupov reparos lu. Kun kordi= ala saluti, Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-22 16:58 GMT-05:00 Eberhard Scholz ebe= rhard.scholz@idolinguo.de [linguolisto] : > >= > Kar amiki > per grand intereso me lektas preske multa mesaji en ica foru= mo. > Me prizas la voloraza komenti dil experti. > Tamen, ka la direciono = es justa ? NI ya bezonas regardo vers lo necesa. > Yen mesajo ek la Facebo= ok , forumo "Ido". > Javier Vega Bravo > > > > *questionas* > > Me havas problemo en trova= r vortaro pri nova ("technologies") Ube esas ico > vortaro en reto questio= nas > > > > --001a11442cc252a2520546b65698 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Kara Eberhard,
La dicionario ne plus funcionas:=C2=A0<= a href=3D"http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/">http://www.kyeg= upov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/

Espereble, K= onstantin Yegupov reparos lu.

Kun kordiala saluti,=
Gilles-Philippe
2017-01-21 21:24 GM= T-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@g= mail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com><= /span>:
=C2=A0
=

Mem se la v= orti genitinto e genitoro eventuale referas sempre ad identa = persono, od altre dicite, mem se genitinto sempre esas genitoro e genitoro = sempre esas genitinto (nun me ne volas diskutar tala detali "teknikal&= quot;), oli ne esas, meaopinione, sinonimi. La vorto genitinto deriv= esas de la verbo genitar; konseque ol sempre kontenas, portas e komu= nikas, explicite od implicite, forte o feble, milde o severe, esencal ideo = pri genital organi, fekundigo, spermo ed ovulo. La vor= to genitoro signifikas =C2=ABpatro o matro=C2=BB. Or la vorti pat= ro e matro tote ne kontenas, portas o komunikas tal ideo. Oli es= as vorti qui, kontree, emfazas precipue la familiala e sociala rolo di la &= quot;genitinti". Pluse, la vorto genitinto referas ad unika ins= tanto pasinta, ordinare ja tre fora, kontre ke la vorti patro e m= atro (e, konseque, genitoro) referas a plura periodi di la famil= iala vivo, ad infanteso, puereso, pubereso, adoleco, e mem pose, ad adultes= ko ed adulteso, ad omna evi dum qui la filii kreskas e matureskas, do a tot= a vivo, nam on nultempe cesas esar patro o matro (e, konseque, genitoro).
La fakto ke = genitor en la Franca ed Angla (same kam progeni= tor en la Hispana e genitore en la Itala) signifikas nur =C2=ABb= iologiala genitoro=C2=BB ne signifikas ke la vorto genitoro ne povas= aquirar senco plu ampla en Ido ed esar uzata anke por expresar nova famili= ala relati en la moderna socio, qui inkluzas anke genitori "ne-biologi= ala", quale sugestis Robert. Advere, en Ido la vorti ne sempre signifi= kas exakte lo sama kam en la fonto-lingui. Exemple, la vorto dindo d= evenas de la Franca dinde, qua signifikas nur =C2=ABdindino=C2=BB, m= a en Ido dindo signifikas ne nur =C2=ABdindino=C2=BB, ma anke =C2=AB= dindulo=C2=BB. Do nulo impedas genitoro extensar sua senco segun la = sociala bezoni e preferi dal Idisti.

2017= -01-19 15:13 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe MMorin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Robert, me ne konkordas, nam en = la Franca e la Angla =C2=ABgenitor=C2=BB esas la strikta nomo por biologial= a patro o matro=E2=80=A6 E ni ja olim havis diskuto pri la filozofio di =C2= =ABgenitado=C2=BB. On ya povas argumentar pri la vera signifiko di =C2=ABge= nitar=C2=BB.




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Ni omna ja savas la defino originala di= =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB: =C2=ABswitch off=C2=BB, =C2=ABinterrompre=C2=BB, e.c.= , t.e. haltigar la fluo elektrala. Me serchis en *Progreso* e trovis la mes= aji sequanta. *Progreso*, IV, 172: *Komutar.* Sub l'influo di la teknika= l vorto F. *commutateur* (elektrala), ni adoptis > la verbo *komutar* kun l= a senco: interrompar [interruptar] elektrala > fluo. Ma ta senco nule kores= pondas a l'etimologio, nek (konseque) a la > cetera uzi di la vorto, qua si= gnifikas proxime kambiar o permutar (Ex.: on > *komutas* la puniso di konda= mnito; en matematiko, *komutar* esas chanjas > l'ordino di la elementi o fa= ktori; e c.). Ni propozas do redonar a > *komutar* sa [lua] propra senco, e= d uzar pri elektro la vorti > *interrompilo* [*interruptilo*] o *konektilo*= (de la verbo *konektar*, > necesa en ta cienco). Cetere, *komutar* e *komu= tilo* povos anke uzesar > pri elektro, kun lia propra e preciza senco: *cha= njar la sinso* (*di fluo*). > To esas anke la senco maxim internaciona di t= a radiko [FIRS]. On havas ex. *komutili > sen interrompo*. To esis propoz= o. Yen la adopto (*Progreso*, VII, 71): 1279. On decidas unanime chanjar l= a senco di *komutar* segun la defino: IV, > 172. Yen do la klefo di la mi= sterio. *Swichilo* esas sinonimo di *interruptilo* o di *konektilo*! 2017-= 01-21 14:47 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin : > Forsan= vu deziris skribar: > > =C2=ABMotoro havas amba: komutilo [switch] e kolek= toro [commutator].=C2=BB > > O forsan me ne komprenis vua exemplo. > > Cert= e la =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB di Ido ne esas la sama kam la =C2=ABcommuter=C2=BB= di la Franca, > tote quale =C2=ABpento=C2=BB ne esas la sama kam =C2=ABpen= te=C2=BB. =C2=ABKomutar=C2=BB e =C2=ABpento=C2=BB esas > plu preciza kam su= a origini. > > Li esas falsa amiki quan plura dicionarii facas erore. Sive = to, sive... on > chanjis komplete, tote, integrale, plene, la senco di =C2= =ABkomutar=C2=BB. Ma por to > me bezonas pruvo. Nam en la sequanta dicionar= io, me trovas: > > http://idolinguo.org.uk/idfr.htm > > *komut.ar * {tr} (*elek.*) commuer [sic!], interrompre ( > *math.*, *=C3=A9l= ectr.*) > > Ta dicionario kontenas =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB, do me konjektas ke= sive on konfuze > modernigis tre olda dicionario, sive ta defino esas anko= re valida *mem > pos Dyer*. > > En la *Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-internati= onal* (1908), on ne trovas la verbo > =C2=ABcommuter=C2=BB. Tamen, on ja tr= ovas =C2=AB*commutateur*=C2=BB (switch), qua tradukesas > per =C2=ABkomut-i= lo=C2=BB, ed on trovas =C2=AB*interrompre* (*un courant =C3=A9lectrique*)= =C2=BB > (swich off an electric current), qua tradukesas per =C2=ABkomutar= =C2=BB. > > Me trovas nula ambigueso en ta dicionarii. > > On Sat, Jan 21, = 2017 at 1:31 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk > [linguolisto] wrote: > >> >> >> Vu citas lexiko qua donas du tradukuri p= or "komutilo": switch, commutator. >> Quale me ja probis explikar, semble v= ane, la du kozi ne esas sama. Motoro >> normale havas amba: swichilo e komu= tilo. >> >> Me ne savas ka la Franca linguo konfundas la koncepti swichar e= komutar, >> ma ol ne esas klara a me. La Germana vorto por swichilo sembla= s esar >> Schalter, e por komutilo semblas esar "Kommutator" o "Stromwender= ". >> >> La vorto "swichar" adoptesis en 1926: mikra pazo por plubonigo di = Ido. >> >> En la Raporto da Roze (1937), pri decidi dil Akademio Interimala= , ye >> pagino 61: >> swich-ar, mix. [transitiva e ne-transitiva] D schalte= n, E to switch, F >> commuter [falio hike indikar la senco] ... en-swichar,= ek-swichar, >> swich-ilo, swich-ili, en-swichili, ek-swichili: D ein- auss= chalten; >> Schalter, Ein- Ausschalter. Uzo prefixe di "en" ed "ek" semblas= esar de la >> Germana. >> >> Robert C. >> >> >> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphm= orin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Fri, 20 Jan >> 2017 03:51:00 -0500: >> En la= Franca, =C2=ABswitch=C2=BB =3D =C2=ABcommutateur=C2=BB. >> >> >> http://la= valeo.tripod.com/francaisido-co.html >> >> >> >> *commutateur* komut.il.o, = inter-rupt.il.o >> >> >> >> Segun la Petit Robert,* interrupteur*: >> >> >>= *Nom masculin* (1857) Dispositif permettant d'interrompre ou de r=C3=A9tab= lir >> le passage du courant =C3=A9lectrique dans un circuit. >> =C2=A9 201= 6 Dictionnaires Le Robert - Le Petit Robert de la langue fran=C3=A7aise >> = >> >> Nu! Ta vorto e ta koncepto existas de pos* 1857*, Ido certe ja havis = >> vorti por expresar la ideo di =C2=ABswitch=C2=BB, =C2=ABswitch off=C2=BB= , e.c. >> >> >> Fakte, yen la defini di la* English-International Dictionar= y* di 1908! >> >> >> https://archive.org/stream/englishinternati00beaurich#= page/238/mode/2up >> >> https://archive.org/stream/internationalen00jespgoo= g#page/n124/mode/2up >> >> >> >> to* switch off* (*current*), komutar >> >>= >> *komut-ar,* to break off, shut off (*current*);* -ilo,* switch, >> comm= utator. [DEFIS] >> >> >> Nu, en 1908! La nura problemo semblas esar, ke man= kis vorto por "switch >> on"... Nu, me ne mem savas ka "switch on" existis = lore. >> >> >> 2017-01-20 0:54 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin : >> >> http://www.websters1913.com/words/Interrupter >> >> https:/= /en.wiktionary.org/wiki/interruptor#Spanish >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org= /wiki/interrupteur >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/interruttore#Italia= n >> >> >> >> Ma certe vu preferas =C2=ABswichilo=C2=BB, ka sustenesas nur = da la Angla. >> >> >> 2017-01-19 9:30 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.u= k [linguolisto] < >> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >> Me trovas nula def= ini por ica vorti en la lexiki da Dyer. Lua tradukuro >> por "komutilo" esa= s "commutator". Angla dicionario dicas ke ico esas "a >> device that mainta= ins the direction of flow of electric current in a >> generator or reverses= it in an electric motor". >> >> Por "switch" (elektrala), Dyer donas (verb= o) "komutar", e (substantivo) >> "cirkuito-klozilo, inter-rupt-ilo, komut-i= lo". Lu ne povis donar plu apta >> tradukuro ante adopto di "swichar". Se "= komutilo" esas "commutator" ol ne >> esas "switch" quale trovebla exemple y= e muro di chambro. >> >> Dyer ne povis donar apta od irga vorti por diversa= kozi (quale abaniko, >> acetono, anorako, aspirino, atolo), nam apta vorti= ne existis en Ido til >> pose. >> >> Robert C. >> >> Gilles-Philippe Morin= gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan >> 2017 12:52:56 -0500: >> = >> Nu, me nultempe skribis =C2=ABstartilo=C2=BB nek =C2=ABhaligilo=C2=BB! = Me skribis >> =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e =C2=ABkomutilo=C2=BB, quale defini= ta che Dyer... >> >> 2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.u= k [linguolisto] < >> linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >> >> Vu dicas: 'Tame= n, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice >> "acendar" e "extinga= r", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"...' >> >> Swichilo esas elektrala ed= esas uzata por startar ed anke por haltigar. >> Ne suficas dicar "startilo= " o "haltigilo". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti >> povas esar uzata por ch= anjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por >> startar o haltigar ol. = >> >> Quale me ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo dif= eras >> de swichilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala= >> aparato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, = ne >> por startar o haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado. >> >= > Mem se ula linguo o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun = >> swichilo, tala neklareso esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona. >> >= > Robert C. >> >> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - = Tue, 17 Jan >> 2017 18:31:26 -0500: >> >> Voluntez skribar nova defino (me= aceptas "startar o haltigar kurento por >> funcionigar o haltigar aparato,= o chanjar la direciono (voyo) di kurento") >> kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose= povos komparar vua "swichar" kun "komutar" e >> "interruptar". Ma nuntempe= me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la >> Franca "commuter" e la Franc= a "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e "swichar". >> >> La verbo "commuter" esas st= rikte transitiva. >> >> Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: = vice "acendar" e >> "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e "haltigar"... >> >>= 2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] < >>= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: >> >> Kara Gilles-Philippe, >> >> Vu skribis= : >> Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar = >> (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis = a >> "swichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-r= eto". >> Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, inte= rruptar >> elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua dir= eciono. >> >> Tamen, me refuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Pare= nteze, LNV >> falias indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por= me, la senco >> di "swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"): = startar o >> haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar= la direciono >> (voyo) di kurento. >> >> La defino di "acendar" da Pesch e= sas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) >> produktar flami, mem nur mikra. (Anke = metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: >> "to inflame (the passions)" - acend= ar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke >> acendilo esas "lighter". Ico esas utens= ilo por acendar exemple sigaro. >> >> Extensar la senco di "acendar" por in= kluzar "enswichar" konfundus >> "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swi= chilo nur komencas o cesas >> funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kaz= o la kurento, se ol esas tro >> forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komenc= ar fairo. >> >> On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acend= ilo por >> funcionigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea p= unto >> precipua esas ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas = solvar >> la problemo. >> >> Kordiale, >> Robert C. >> >> Gilles-Philippe M= orin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan >> 2017 13:58:15 -0500:= >> >> Nu, on ja tradukabis "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: >> = "acendar" ed "extingar". >> "Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho? on povas exti= ngar li nur per du klaki? >> Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!" >> >> La orig= inala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se on >> transpozis l= a senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vorti >> ad irga ap= arati elektrala, ka ne? >> "Ho ve! La radio informas ke grava novajo eventi= s. Me acendez la >> televiziono." >> >> Ma forsan vu ne komprenas mea vidpu= nto pri "swichar", o pro quo me >> konsideras la situeso tote absurda. >> >= > La Angla "switch" tradukesas a la Franca per du vorti: commutateur >> (ko= mutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-ilo). >> Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen= konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko. Or, >> pos serchado, me ya trovis li = en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo switch. >> >> Pro quo me, qua bone savas= quale "a switch" funcionas, selektus >> "swichilo", min internaciona kam "= komutilo" e min logikoza kam >> "interruptilo"? >> >> Per vua exempli, me d= eduktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar >> (ulo) en cirkuito elekt= rala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a >> "swichar", t.e. "chan= jar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". >> Ube esas la chanj= o di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar >> elektro-fluo to= te, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono. >> >> On Tue, Jan = 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk >> [linguolisto] wrote: >> >> Kande on en-swichas on "pozas" ulo/apara= to en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke >> la elektro povas fluar tra ol e funcio= nigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on >> "forprenas" ol ek la cirkuito. To sembl= as esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. >> Quale plu bone on tradukus la Angla "= switch on" e "switch off"? >> Robert C. >> >> Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmori= n@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 Jan >> 2017 16:05:32 -0500: >> Nu, me = ne komprenas la logiko di "enswichar" ed "ekswichar". On >> "swichas" ulo e= n od ek quo? >> >> Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo? >> >> 2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-0= 5:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >> Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swicha= r" esas uzata >> precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "eksw= ichar" (to turn >> off). >> >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/enswichar#Ido= >> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido >> >> 2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+= 00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >> Pos analizir la defino di "swichar" en la Lexiko = di Nova Vorti, e pos >> analizir la defini di "commuter" en la Franca, me k= onkluzas ke "swichar" >> esas sive adminime plu preciza vorto por "komutar"= , sive admaxime tota >> sinonimo di "komutar". >> >> Kad on havas informo p= ri lua adopto en 1926? >> >> Gilles-Philippe >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > --f403045d5b10a1adea0546f17ca1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me trovis la solvo di la problemo.

Ni o= mna ja savas la defino originala di =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB: =C2=ABswitch off= =C2=BB, =C2=ABinterrompre=C2=BB, e.c., t.e. haltigar la fluo elektrala. Me = serchis en Progreso=C2=A0e trovis la mesaji sequanta.

=
Progreso, IV, 172:

Komutar.= =C2=A0
Sub l&= #39;influo di la teknikal vorto F. commutateur=C2=A0(elektrala), ni = adoptis la verbo komutar=C2=A0kun la senco: interrompar [interruptar= ] elektrala fluo. Ma ta senco nule korespondas a l'etimologio, nek (kon= seque) a la cetera uzi di la vorto, qua signifikas proxime kambiar o permut= ar (Ex.: on komutas=C2=A0la puniso di kondamnito; en matematiko, = komutar=C2=A0esas chanjas l'ordino di la elementi o faktori; e c.).= Ni propozas do redonar a komutar=C2=A0sa [lua] propra senco, ed uza= r pri elektro la vorti interrompilo=C2=A0[interruptilo] o = konektilo=C2=A0(de la verbo konektar, necesa en ta cienco). Cete= re, komutar=C2=A0e komutilo=C2=A0povos anke uzesar pri elektr= o, kun lia propra e preciza senco: chanjar la sinso=C2=A0(di fluo= ). To esas anke la senco maxim internaciona di ta radiko [FIRS]. On hav= as ex. komutili sen interrompo.
=C2=A0
To esis propozo. Yen la adopto (Progreso, VII, 71):

=
1279. On decidas un= anime chanjar la senco di komutar=C2=A0segun la defino: IV, 172.

Yen do la klefo di la misterio. Swichilo esas sinonimo di interruptilo o di konektilo!

2017-01-21 14:47 GM= T-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Forsan vu deziris skribar:
=
=C2=ABMotoro havas amba: komutilo [switch] e kolektoro [comm= utator].=C2=BB

O forsan me ne komprenis vua exempl= o.

Certe la =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB di Ido ne esas la = sama kam la =C2=ABcommuter=C2=BB di la Franca, tote quale =C2=ABpento=C2=BB= ne esas la sama kam =C2=ABpente=C2=BB. =C2=ABKomutar=C2=BB e =C2=ABpento= =C2=BB esas plu preciza kam sua origini.

Li esas f= alsa amiki quan plura dicionarii facas erore. Sive to, sive... on chanjis k= omplete, tote, integrale, plene, la senco di =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB. Ma por to= me bezonas pruvo. Nam en la sequanta dicionario, me trovas:

=

komut.ar {tr} (elek.= ) =C2=A0commuer [sic!], interrompre (math., =C3=A9lectr.)=

Ta dicionario kontenas =C2=ABgenitoro=C2=BB, = do me konjektas ke sive on konfuze modernigis tre olda dicionario, sive ta = defino esas ankore valida mem pos Dyer.

En = la Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international=C2=A0(1908), on ne trova= s la verbo =C2=ABcommuter=C2=BB. Tamen, on ja trovas =C2=ABcommutateur=C2=BB (switch), qua tradukesas per =C2=ABkomut-ilo=C2=BB, ed on trovas = =C2=ABinterrompre (un courant =C3=A9lectrique)=C2=BB (swich o= ff an electric current), qua tradukesas per =C2=ABkomutar=C2=BB.
=
Me trovas nula ambigueso en ta dicionarii.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 1:31 PM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [ling= uolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0

Vu citas lexiko = qua donas du tradukuri por "komutilo": switch, commutator.=
Quale me ja probis explikar, semble vane, la du kozi ne esas sama. Motoro = normale havas amba: swichilo e komutilo.
=C2=A0
Me ne savas ka la Franca linguo konfundas la koncep= ti swichar e komutar, ma ol ne esas klara a me. La Germana vorto por swichi= lo semblas esar Schalter, e por komutilo semblas esar "Kommutator"= ; o "Stromwender".
=C2=A0
La vorto "swichar" adoptesiss en 1926: mikra pazo por = plubonigo di Ido.
=C2=A0=
En la Raporto da Roze (1937), pri decidi dil Akademio Interimala, ye pagin= o 61:
swich-ar, mix. [transitiva e ne-transitiva] D schalten, E to s= witch, F commuter [falio hike indikar la senco] ... en-swichar, ek-swichar,= swich-ilo, swich-ili, en-swichili, ek-swichili: D ein- ausschalten; Schalt= er, Ein- Ausschalter. Uzo prefixe di "en" ed "ek" sembl= as esar de la Germana.
= =C2=A0
Robert C.
=C2=A0<= /div>
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Fri, 20 Jan 2017 03:51:00 -0500:=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"m_-5684217900150027562h5">
En la Franca, =C2=ABswitch=C2=BB =3D =C2= =ABcommutateur=C2=BB.




commutateur komut.il.o, inter-rupt.il.o



Segun la Peti= t Robert, interrupteur:


Nom masculin (= 1857) Dispositif permettant d'interrompre ou de= r=C3=A9tablir le passage du courant =C3=A9lectrique dans un circuit.
=C2=A9 2016 Dictionnaires Le Robert - Le Petit Robert de la langue fran= =C3=A7aise


Nu! Ta vorto e ta koncepto existas de p= os 1857, Ido certe ja havis vorti por expresar la ideo di =C2=ABswit= ch=C2=BB, =C2=ABswitch off=C2=BB, e.c.


Fakte, yen la= defini di la English-International Dictionary=C2=A0di 1908!<= /div>
=

=


to switch= off=C2=A0(current), komutar


komut-ar,= =C2=A0to break off, shut off (current); -ilo,=C2=A0switch= , commutator. [DEFIS]


Nu, en 1908! La nura problemo = semblas esar, ke mankis vorto por "switch on"... Nu, me ne mem sa= vas ka "switch on" existis lore.


2017-01-2= 0 0:54 GMT-05:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:

http:/= /www.websters1913.com/words/Interrupter

= =

<= br>
Ma certe vu preferas =C2=ABswichilo=C2=BB, ka sustenesas nur da = la Angla.


2017-01-19 9:30 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.&#= 39; ido@avenue.me.uk<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0 =
Me trovas nula defini por ica vorti en la lexiki da Dyer. Lua tradukuro po= r "komutilo" esas "commutator". Angla dicionario dicas = ke ico esas "a device that maintains the direction of flow of electric= current in a generator or reverses it in an electric motor".

= Por "switch" (elektrala), Dyer donas (verbo) "komutar",= e (substantivo) "cirkuito-klozilo, inter-rupt-ilo, komut-ilo". L= u ne povis donar plu apta tradukuro ante adopto di "swichar". Se = "komutilo" esas "commutator" ol ne esas "switch&qu= ot; quale trovebla exemple ye muro di chambro.

Dyer ne povis donar = apta od irga vorti por diversa kozi (quale abaniko, acetono, anorako, aspir= ino, atolo), nam apta vorti ne existis en Ido til pose.

Robert C.
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Wed, 18 Jan 2017 12:52:56 = -0500:

=C2=A0Nu, me nultempe skribis =C2=ABstartilo=C2=BB n= ek =C2=ABhaligilo=C2=BB! Me skribis =C2=ABinterruptilo=C2=BB e =C2=ABkomuti= lo=C2=BB, quale definita che Dyer...

2017-01-18 12:26 GMT-05:00 = 9;Robert C.' ido@= avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:


V= u dicas: 'Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "= ;acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e &q= uot;haltigar"...'

Swichilo esas elektrala ed esas uzata po= r startar ed anke por haltigar. Ne suficas dicar "startilo" o &qu= ot;haltigilo". Pluse, swichilo en ula cirkuiti povas esar uzata por ch= anjar la voyo di elektro-fluo, ne nur simple por startar o haltigar ol.
=
Quale me ja mencionis, en generatoro o motoro elektrala, komutilo dife= ras de swichilo. Normale homo uzas swichilo por startar o haltigar tala apa= rato, dum ke komutilo chanjas la elektro-fluo rapidege ed automate, ne por = startar o haltigar la aparato ma por helpar olua funcionado.

Mem se= ula linguo o lingui konfundas komutar kun swichar, e komutilo kun swichilo= , tala neklareso esas desdezirinda por linguo internaciona.

Robert = C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 18:31= :26 -0500:

=C2=A0Voluntez skribar nova defino (me aceptas "sta= rtar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la di= reciono (voyo) di kurento") kun traduki DEFIRS e me pose povos kompara= r vua "swichar" kun "komutar" e "interruptar"= . Ma nuntempe me nule povas konceptar la difero inter la Franca "commu= ter" e la Franca "commuter", t.e. "komutar" e &quo= t;swichar".

La verbo "commuter" esas strikte transit= iva.

Tamen, vua defino ipsa solvas vua propra problemo: vice "= acendar" e "extingar", simple uzez "startar" e &qu= ot;haltigar"...

2017-01-17 17:11 GMT-05:00 'Robert C.'= ido@avenue.me.uk= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:

Kara Gilles-Philippe,=

Vu skribis:
Per vua exempli, me deduktas ke vua defino di &quo= t;enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cirkuito elektrala". Or to= nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "swichar", t.e. "chan= jar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo-reto". Ube esas la cha= njo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, interruptar elektro-fluo tot= e, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua direciono.

Tamen, me r= efuzas ta defino (ek LNV 1988) di "swichar". (Parenteze, LNV fali= as indikar ka verbo esas transitiva o ne-transitiva.) Por me, la senco di &= quot;swichar" mustas esar (quale la Angla vorto "switch"): s= tartar o haltigar kurento por funcionigar o haltigar aparato, o chanjar la = direciono (voyo) di kurento.

La defino di "acendar" da Pe= sch esas "Igar lumifanta per igar (lu) produktar flami, mem nur mikra.= (Anke metaf.)". Dyer donas exemplo metaf.: "to inflame (the pass= ions)" - acendar (pasioni). Dyer anke dicas ke acendilo esas "lig= hter". Ico esas utensilo por acendar exemple sigaro.

Extensar = la senco di "acendar" por inkluzar "enswichar" konfundu= s "acendilo" e "swichilo". Normale uzo di swichilo nur = komencas o cesas funciono di aparato elektrala, ma en mala kazo la kurento,= se ol esas tro forta, povas ya acendar la aparato e komencar fairo.
On ne uzas swichilo por acendar sigaro, ed on ne uzas acendilo por funcio= nigar motoro. Tamen, vu darfas havas altra opiniono. Mea punto precipua esa= s ke la vortolibri ne inter-konsentas, e ke ULI mustas solvar la problemo.<= br>
Kordiale,
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguoli= sto] - Tue, 17 Jan 2017 13:58:15 -0500:

=C2=A0Nu, on ja tradukabis = "switch on" e "swich off" ante lia adopto: "acenda= r" ed "extingar".
"Extingez la lumi, me pregas. Ho?= on povas extingar li nur per du klaki? Ni vivas en tante ociema socio!&quo= t;

La originala senco restriktesis ad (anke elektrala) lumo, ma se = on transpozis la senco ad elektrala lumo, on povus naturale aplikar la vort= i ad irga aparati elektrala, ka ne?
"Ho ve! La radio informas ke g= rava novajo eventis. Me acendez la televiziono."

Ma forsan vu = ne komprenas mea vidpunto pri "swichar", o pro quo me konsideras = la situeso tote absurda.

La Angla "switch" tradukesas a l= a Franca per du vorti: commutateur (komutilo) e interrupteur (inter-rupt-il= o).
Nu, me facis ta du derivaji sen konsultir Dyer, nur sequante logiko= . Or, pos serchado, me ya trovis li en Dyer... en la defino di la nomo swit= ch.

Pro quo me, qua bone savas quale "a switch" funcionas= , selektus "swichilo", min internaciona kam "komutilo" = e min logikoza kam "interruptilo"?

Per vua exempli, me de= duktas ke vua defino di "enswichar" esus "pozar (ulo) en cir= kuito elektrala". Or to nule sequas la defino quan on donis a "sw= ichar", t.e. "chanjar la direciono di la elektro-fluo, di la filo= -reto". Ube esas la chanjo di direciono en tua exemplo? En elektriko, = interruptar elektro-fluo tote, tote ne esas la sama kozo kam chanjar lua di= reciono.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 6:49 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [ling= uolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Kande on en-swichas o= n "pozas" ulo/aparato en cirkuito elektrala, tale ke la elektro p= ovas fluar tra ol e funcionigar ol. Kande on ek-swichas on "forprenas&= quot; ol ek la cirkuito. To semblas esar logikala. Ne esas Anglajo. Quale p= lu bone on tradukus la Angla "switch on" e "switch off"= ?
Robert C.

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Mon, 16 J= an 2017 16:05:32 -0500:
=C2=A0Nu, me ne komprenas la logiko di "en= swichar" ed "ekswichar". On "swichas" ulo en od ek= quo?

Ka to esas eroroza Anglajo?

2017-01-16 14:40 GMT-05:0= 0 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
Segun quante me savas e memoras, en nuna Ido, "swichar" esas u= zata precipue en lua derivaji "enswichar" (to turn on) ed "e= kswichar" (to turn off).

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/en= swichar#Ido
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ekswichar#Ido
2017-01-16 0:39 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= ;linguolis= to@yahoogroups.com>:

Pos analizir la defino di "swichar= " en la Lexiko di Nova Vorti, e pos analizir la defini di "commut= er" en la Franca, me konkluzas ke "swichar" esas sive admini= me plu preciza vorto por "komutar", sive admaxime tota sinonimo d= i "komutar".

Kad on havas informo pri lua adopto en 1926?=

Gilles-Philippe





=


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Segun logiko vice 'ridinda' e 'shaminda' on mustas uzar 'ridigiva' e 'shamigiva'. Parenteze, malgre defino di '-ind-' en KGD tote libere uzesas anke 'ridinda' en plura loki! E to ya es ridigiva! -- Igor From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4985 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 40181 invoked by uid 102); 26 Jan 2017 15:59:28 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m16.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2017 15:59:28 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 5962 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2017 15:59:28 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1002.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.166) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 26 Jan 2017 15:59:28 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: eUMrvloWLDt0wzbVFsY2GmlcBG2YRMpXJyWUB9kq9CWicQvh tVFUP6wHXhfipLRZO8Yxd5mU9MS2aR_eQ8tbeJUDcLSKuWNg_xSNm_IeFkn7 NPV2cqID9pmEku0OPr54f1Osj.kvbEKYAiupzCh23C2OHq9eHlzwrVjrTq6W QrosE3vAY3V.ip08F6vnOyHB4OJFuiA3r.VVI9hVz7Ffuyibl.Q9A_1YWvzi rJ0qcnk9fTUB_ccDNRcKa2JLUKwFz9kfXw8bjvxUjKwklTZZS0rkRlG0h2ze bq9MFSz3P.DkZwOomcP1x3T6qnFIOilmx035p6DpBCCZW6RvdaWc68cCeTw. 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La vorto "ridikula" ne signifikas simple "ridigiva".
 
Ridikula esas ta qua meritas rido e moko. Joko o komedio povas ridigar sen esar ridikula. Ofte ulo ridikula esas absurda. "Ta chapelo esas ridikula".
 
Segun memoro, esis Andreas Juste qua propozis adopto dil vorto.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
 
'Igor V.' izoommm@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 09:50:52 +0300: 
Segun logiko vice 'ridinda' e 'shaminda' on mustas uzar 'ridigiva' e
'shamigiva'.
Parenteze, malgre defino di '-ind-' en KGD tote libere uzesas anke
'ridinda' en plura loki! E to ya es ridigiva!

--
 Igor

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Pri "Dyer dicas, ke on uzez «ula»!", Dyer ne disponis la vorto "certena" nam ol ne adoptesis til 1954, 30 yari pos edito di lua lexiki.
 
Dyer disponis nur la vorti ja adoptita od, adminime, ja propozita (e probable adoptota?). Quale en altra kazi, il mustis uzar vorti existanta mem se li ne esis tote apta por fidela traduko.
 
Ica problemo ulagrade "afliktas" omna tradukado. nam sat ofte ne existas exakta equivalanti inter un linguo ed altra. Kande linguo ne havas exakta equivalanto, on mustas uzar vorto kun senco maxim proxima, forsan adjuntante noto explikiva se la "eroro" esas sat grava.
 
Tamen, adoptante nova vorti on ofte oblivias la bezono indikar samtempe ke vorti existanta povas, mem se ne chanjar sua senci, chanjar la larjeso di sua uzi. En multa kazi, fortunoze, apta chanjo di uzo esas evidenta.
 
LNV (1988) indikas ke "certena" esas "inter ula e certa, preske certa, certatra". Ico indikas ke adminime un de ta du vorti, "ula" e "certa", pretendabis okupar tro multa spaco e nun mustas cedar spaco por akomodar la nova habitanto dil benko.
 
Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
 
Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:33:02 -0500: 
Me pluse lektis pri «iu» e «certa» en Esperanto.


iu: nedifiniteco (nedefiniteso)


certa: «tute difinita en la penso de la parolanto, kiu tamen ne sentas la bezonon pli precizigi» (tote definita en la penso di la parolanto, qua tamen ne sentas la bezono plu precizigar»


Gonçalo, to semblas konkordar kun tua defini di «ula» (iu) e di «certena» (certa).


Tamen, me pluse lektis, tafoye en la Angla:


certain
adjective
  1. Able to be firmly relied on to happen or be the case:
    'it's certain that more changes are in the offing'
    'she looks certain to win an Oscar'
    1. Having or showing complete conviction about something:
      'are you absolutely certain about this?'
  2. [attributive] Specific but not explicitly named or stated:
    'he raised certain personal problems with me'
    'the exercise was causing him a certain amount of pain'
    1. Used when mentioning the name of someone not known to the reader or hearer:
      'a certain General Percy captured the town'


Do, yen to esis... la quar nura senci dil adjektivo «certain» en la Angla.


Nu, on povas facile trovar qua vorto en Ido equivalas singla senco:
1 certa (kozo)
1.1 certa (homo)
2 «certena» segun Gonçalo (preciza ma tacata)
2.1 «certena» segun Gonçalo (preciza ma tacata)


Esas do nula, nula senco disponebla por la vorto «ula», ka ne?


Or, yen la defino di «certain» segun Dyer:


certain: certa, infalibla; to be c. of: esar certa pri; c. day: ula dio;in a c. place: ul-loke;to make c. of something: cert-igar (ulo); become c.: cert-eskar; his ruin is c.: lua ruino esas infalibla.


Ho ve! Quo eventas?! «certain day» e «in a certain place» povas havar nul altra senco kam certain 2. Or Dyer dicas, ke on uzez «ula»!


Ridinde, la Wikivortaro kontenas amba vorti: «ula» por «certain day» e «in a certain place», ma «certena» por la cetero!
Ka «certain day» e «in a certain place» esas ecepti?


Nu, la nura expliko quan me povas trovar esas: «certena» esas sinonimo di «ula», od adminime sinonimo di ula senci di «ula», to esas, kande «ula» reprezentas ulo preciza ma tacata.


Ula exempli en Ido-English konfirmas to:
ula dio en la lasta monato: one day (= a certain day, but date not specified);
ula viro decensis de Ierusalem a Ierico: a certain man (name not specified) went down from Jerusalem to Jericho


Konseque, yen itere mea questiono di ante tri dii:
Kad on chanjis la defino di la vorto «ula»?

Altravorte, ka «ula» nun equivalas la vorto «iu» di Esperanto?
Ube esas la oficala informo pri ta tre, tre grava chanjo?


Gilles-Philippe


On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:

Kara Eberhard,
La dicionario ne plus funcionas: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/


Espereble, Konstantin Yegupov reparos lu.


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe


2017-01-22 16:58 GMT-05:00 Eberhard Scholz eberhard.scholz@idolinguo.de [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
 
 Kar amiki
per grand intereso me lektas preske multa mesaji en ica forumo.
Me prizas la voloraza komenti dil experti.
Tamen, ka la  direciono  es justa ? NI ya bezonas regardo vers lo necesa.
Yen mesajo ek la Facebook , forumo "Ido".

Me havas problemo en trovar vortaro pri nova ("technologies") Ube esas ico vortaro en reto  questionas







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Korektigo. Juste ne propozis ma aprobis adopto di "ridikula".
 
Me jus skribis:
La vorto "ridikula" ne signifikas simple "ridigiva".

Ridikula esas ta qua meritas rido e moko. Joko o komedio povas ridigar sen esar ridikula. Ofte ulo ridikula esas absurda. "Ta chapelo esas ridikula".

Segun memoro, esis Andreas Juste qua propozis adopto dil vorto.

Kordiale,
Robert C.
 
 
'Igor V.' izoommm@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 09:50:52 +0300: 
Segun logiko vice 'ridinda' e 'shaminda' on mustas uzar 'ridigiva' e
'shamigiva'.
Parenteze, malgre defino di '-ind-' en KGD tote libere uzesas anke
'ridinda' en plura loki! E to ya es ridigiva!

--
 Igor


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Danko pro la informo, Robert! Kad on propozi= s altra alternativo por =C2=ABshaminda=C2=BB? Mea amiko William Johnsson, = de Suedia, propozas la vorto =C2=ABignobla=C2=BB. On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at = 11:34 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Korektigo. Juste ne propozis ma aprobis adopto di "ri= dikula". > > Me jus skribis: > La vorto "ridikula" ne signifikas simple "ri= digiva". > > Ridikula esas ta qua meritas rido e moko. Joko o komedio povas= ridigar sen > esar ridikula. Ofte ulo ridikula esas absurda. "Ta chapelo e= sas ridikula". > > Segun memoro, esis Andreas Juste qua propozis adopto dil= vorto. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > > 'Igor V.' izoommm@gmail.com [linguo= listo] - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 09:50:52 > +0300: > Segun logiko vice 'ridinda' e= 'shaminda' on mustas uzar 'ridigiva' e > 'shamigiva'. > Parenteze, malgre = defino di '-ind-' en KGD tote libere uzesas anke > 'ridinda' en plura loki!= E to ya es ridigiva! > > -- > Igor > > > > --001a11469ee65faa07054703c8fd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Igor, la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0ipsa esas kel= ke ridikula, nam lu ipsa kontenas =C2=ABridind=C2=BB kinfoye!
Danko pro la informo, Robert! Kad on propozis altra alternativo por = =C2=ABshaminda=C2=BB?

Mea amiko William Johnsson, de Sue= dia, propozas la vorto =C2=ABignobla=C2=BB.

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 11:34 AM, 'Robe= rt C.' ido@avenue= .me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0 =
=

Korektigo. Juste ne propozis= ma aprobis adopto di "ridikula".
=C2=A0
Me jus skribis:
La vorto "ridi= kula" ne signifikas simple "ridigiva".

=
Ridiku= la esas ta qua meritas rido e moko. Joko o komedio povas ridigar sen esar r= idikula. Ofte ulo ridikula esas absurda. "Ta chapelo esas ridikula&quo= t;.

Segun memoro, esis Andreas Juste qua propozis adopto di= l vorto.

Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2=A0
= =C2=A0
'Igor V.' izoommm@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 09:50:52= +0300:=C2=A0
Segun logiko vice 'ridinda' e 'shaminda= 9; on mustas uzar 'ridigiva' e
'shamigiva'.
Parente= ze, malgre defino di '-ind-' en KGD tote libere uzesas anke
= 9;ridinda' en plura loki! E to ya es ridigiva!

--
=C2=A0Igo= r


=

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E= n la unesma kazo, =C2=ABula=C2=BB qualifikas la determineso di la *homo*; e= n la duesma kazo, =C2=ABcerta=C2=BB (e mem =C2=ABcertatra=C2=BB) qualifikas= *la homo ipsa*. Esas to grava eroro asertar, ke =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB signif= ikas =C2=ABpreske certa=C2=BB. Yen kelka frazi qui dubitigas me: =C2=ABBo= na precepto di stilo esas ta, quan Sro Peus recevis de *ula* sua maestro : = *Uzez multa punti*, t. e. facez kurta frazi.=C2=BB (*Kompleta Gramatiko*) K= ad en 2017 on skribus =C2=ABula=C2=BB o =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB *sua maestro*? = Certe Sro Peus *savis* de qua maestro lu ricevis la precepto. Ma se Beaufro= nt ne savis qua, on uzus =C2=ABula=C2=BB? =C2=ABOkazione ni volas refutar = un foyo pluse ti qui asertas, ke l'akuzativo esas necesa por posibligar l'i= nversigi, quin *ula* lingui tante prizas.=C2=BB (*Kompleta Gramatiko*) Kad = en 2017 on skribus =C2=ABula=C2=BB o =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB *lingui*? =C2=ABV= ice facar ek olu la marko di irga genro (segun *ula* autoro) o la signo dil= akuzativo (segun altra), ka ne esus plu bona uzar *-u* por markizar la pro= nomi individuala : *ulu*, *nulu*, *omnu*?=C2=BB (*Kompleta Gramatiko*) Reg= retinde, la nuna sistemo semblas tre diferanta kam la originala sistemo (ka= d on tote chanjis la senco di =C2=ABula=C2=BB?!) nam ni olim havis nur quar= gradi di determineso: *irga* expresis *tota nedetermineso*: *querez irga = mediko* signifikas, ke tote ne importas se on querus ta o ca mediko; *omna*= mediko esus apta. *la* expresis *tota determineso*: *querez la mediko* sig= nifikas, ke on querez mediko partikulara, quan omnu konocas, tam la parolan= to kam la askoltanto. Exemple, *la mediko qua kuracis diabetiko esis tre hu= mana, ka ne?* *ula* expresis *midetermineso*: *querez ula mediko* signifika= s, ke on querez mediko, sive quan ne omnu konocas, sive quan omnu ne konoca= s, sive qua ne povus esar *irga* mediko pro *ula* kauzo. Exemple, on povus = dicar *querez ula mediko* pro ke on bezonas neurokirurgiisto*, dum ke obste= trikisto esus tote ne apta. [nulo] expresis *nedetermineso*: *querez mediko= * signifikas tam bone *ula* mediko kam *irga* mediko. Exemple, *la diabetik= o bezonas preskripto di insulino da mediko*. Me esperas, ke mea exempli es= as sat klara. Se ne, voluntez avertar me. Esas do tote justa, segun me, di= car ke *ula* signifikas =C2=ABinter la ed irga=C2=BB, nam *la* expresas *to= ta determineso*, dum ke *irga* expresas *tota nedetermineso*. Ma nun, ka *c= ertena* signifikas =C2=ABinter la ed ula=C2=BB? Kad on devas dicar, ke *ula= * expresas =C2=ABtriimo de determineso=C2=BB e *certena* expresas =C2=ABdu = triimi de determineso=C2=BB? Per adoptir =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB, on semblas to= te chanjir la logiko quan me deskriptis supre... Mem en la epoko di la Aka= demio, on refuzis *certena* e *cierta* pro ke li *vicigus* (remplasigus) *u= la* kom adjektivo di midetermineso. Ma nun ni havas la du formi kunexistant= e ma sen chanjir la senco di *certa*, e mem sen chanjir la logiko gramatika= la di nia pioniri! (determineso, midetermineso, nedetermineso). On Thu, Ja= n 26, 2017 at 11:32 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Pri "Dyer dicas, ke on uzez =C2=ABula= =C2=BB!", Dyer ne disponis la vorto "certena" > nam ol ne adoptesis til 195= 4, 30 yari pos edito di lua lexiki. > > Dyer disponis nur la vorti ja adopt= ita od, adminime, ja propozita (e > probable adoptota?). Quale en altra kaz= i, il mustis uzar vorti existanta > mem se li ne esis tote apta por fidela = traduko. > > Ica problemo ulagrade "afliktas" omna tradukado. nam sat ofte = ne existas > exakta equivalanti inter un linguo ed altra. Kande linguo ne h= avas exakta > equivalanto, on mustas uzar vorto kun senco maxim proxima, fo= rsan > adjuntante noto explikiva se la "eroro" esas sat grava. > > Tamen, a= doptante nova vorti on ofte oblivias la bezono indikar samtempe ke > vorti = existanta povas, mem se ne chanjar sua senci, chanjar la larjeso di > sua u= zi. En multa kazi, fortunoze, apta chanjo di uzo esas evidenta. > > LNV (19= 88) indikas ke "certena" esas "inter ula e certa, preske certa, > certatra"= . Ico indikas ke adminime un de ta du vorti, "ula" e "certa", > pretendabis= okupar tro multa spaco e nun mustas cedar spaco por akomodar la > nova hab= itanto dil benko. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > > Gilles-Philippe Morin gph= morin@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Tue, 24 Jan 2017 > 17:33:02 -0500: > Me plu= se lektis pri =C2=ABiu=C2=BB e =C2=ABcerta=C2=BB en Esperanto. > > > iu: ne= difiniteco (nedefiniteso) > http://vortaro.net/#iu > > > certa: =C2=ABtute = difinita en la penso de la parolanto, kiu tamen ne sentas la > bezonon pli = precizigi=C2=BB (tote definita en la penso di la parolanto, qua > tamen ne = sentas la bezono plu precizigar=C2=BB > http://vortaro.net/#certa > > > > G= on=C3=A7alo, to semblas konkordar kun tua defini di =C2=ABula=C2=BB (iu) e = di =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB > (certa). > > > Tamen, me pluse lektis, tafoye en l= a Angla: > > > *certain* > *adjective* > > 1. Able to be firmly relied o= n to happen or be the case: > > *'it's certain that more changes are in the= offing' 'she looks certain to > win an Oscar'* > 1. Having or showin= g complete conviction about something: > *'are you absolutely certain= about this?'* > 2. *[attributive]* Specific but not explicitly named= or stated: > *'he raised certain personal problems with me'* > *'the= exercise was causing him a certain amount of pain'* > 1. Used when ment= ioning the name of someone not known to the reader or > hearer: > = *'a certain General Percy captured the town'* > > https://en.oxforddicti= onaries.com/definition/certain > > > > Do, yen to esis... la* quar* nura se= nci dil adjektivo =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB en la > Angla. > > > Nu, on povas fac= ile trovar qua vorto en Ido equivalas singla senco: > 1 certa (kozo) > 1.1 = certa (homo) > 2 =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB segun Gon=C3=A7alo (preciza ma tacata)= > 2.1 =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB segun Gon=C3=A7alo (preciza ma tacata) > > > Esa= s do nula,* nula* senco disponebla por la vorto =C2=ABula=C2=BB, ka ne? > >= > Or, yen la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB segun Dyer: > > > *certain:* ce= rta, infalibla;* to be c. of:* esar certa pri;* c. day:* ula > dio;*in a c.= place:* ul-loke;*to make c. of something:* cert-igar (ulo);* > become c.:*= cert-eskar;* his ruin is c.:* lua ruino esas infalibla. > > > Ho ve! Quo e= ventas?! =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB povas hav= ar nul > altra senco kam* certain 2*. Or Dyer dicas, ke on uzez =C2=ABula= =C2=BB! > > > Ridinde, la Wikivortaro kontenas amba vorti: =C2=ABula=C2=BB = por =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin > a certain place=C2=BB, ma =C2=ABce= rtena=C2=BB por la cetero! > https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/certain > > Ka = =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB esas ecepti? > > >= Nu, la nura expliko quan me povas trovar esas: =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB esas si= nonimo di > =C2=ABula=C2=BB, od adminime sinonimo di* ula senci* di =C2=ABu= la=C2=BB, to esas, kande =C2=ABula=C2=BB > reprezentas* ulo preciza ma taca= ta*. > > > Ula exempli en Ido-English konfirmas to: > *ula dio en la lasta = monato:* one day (=3D a certain day, but date not > specified); > *ula viro= decensis de Ierusalem a Ierico:* a certain man (name not > specified) went= down from Jerusalem to Jericho > > > Konseque, yen itere mea questiono di = ante tri dii: > *Kad on chanjis la defino di la vorto =C2=ABula=C2=BB?* > >= Altravorte, ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB nun equivalas la vorto =C2=ABiu=C2=BB di Es= peranto? > Ube esas la oficala informo pri ta tre, tre grava chanjo? > > > = Gilles-Philippe > > > On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Gilles-Philippe Mori= n > wrote: > > Kara Eberhard, > La dicionario ne plus = funcionas: http://www.kyegupov > .org/ido/dyer_dictionary_web/ > > > Espere= ble, Konstantin Yegupov reparos lu. > > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Phi= lippe > > > 2017-01-22 16:58 GMT-05:00 Eberhard Scholz eberhard.scholz@idol= inguo.de > [linguolisto] : > > Kar amiki > pe= r grand intereso me lektas preske multa mesaji en ica forumo. > Me prizas l= a voloraza komenti dil experti. > Tamen, ka la direciono es justa ? NI ya= bezonas regardo vers lo necesa. > Yen mesajo ek la Facebook , forumo "Ido"= . > > https://www.facebook.com/groups/227585083934469/permalink/ > 17069449= 62665133/" > >Javier > Vega Bravo > > > *questionas* > > Me havas problemo en tr= ovar vortaro pri nova ("technologies") Ube esas ico > vortaro en reto ques= tionas > > > > > > > > > --001a11444f821453b6054704c3ff Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Robert, la defino di la LNV esas tote absurda, nam esas tr= o granda difero inter =C2=ABme konocas ula homo=C2=BB e =C2=ABme konocas ce= rta homo=C2=BB. En la unesma kazo, =C2=ABula=C2=BB qualifikas la determines= o di la homo; en la duesma kazo, =C2=ABcerta=C2=BB (e mem =C2=ABcert= atra=C2=BB) qualifikas la homo ipsa. Esas to grava eroro asertar, ke= =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB signifikas =C2=ABpreske certa=C2=BB.

Yen kelka frazi qui dubitigas me:

=C2=ABBona pre= cepto di stilo esas ta, quan Sro Peus recevis de ula sua maestro : <= i>Uzez multa punti, t. e. facez kurta frazi.=C2=BB (Kompleta Gramati= ko)
Kad en 2017 on skribus =C2=ABula=C2=BB o =C2=ABcertena=C2= =BB sua maestro? Certe Sro Peus savis=C2=A0de qua maestro lu = ricevis la precepto. Ma se Beaufront ne savis qua, on uzus =C2=ABula=C2=BB?=

=C2=ABOkazione ni volas refutar un foyo pluse ti = qui asertas, ke l'akuzativo esas necesa por posibligar l'inversigi,= quin ula lingui tante prizas.=C2=BB (Kompleta Gramatiko)
Kad en 2017 on skribus =C2=ABula=C2=BB o =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB ling= ui?

=C2=ABVice facar ek olu la marko di irga g= enro (segun ula autoro) o la signo dil akuzativo (segun altra), ka n= e esus plu bona uzar -u por markizar la pronomi individuala : ulu= , nulu, omnu?=C2=BB (Kompleta Gramatiko)

Regretinde, la nuna sistemo semblas tre diferanta kam la or= iginala sistemo (kad on tote chanjis la senco di =C2=ABula=C2=BB?!) nam ni = olim havis nur quar gradi di determineso:

irga<= /b>=C2=A0expresis tota nedetermineso: querez irga mediko=C2= =A0signifikas, ke tote ne importas se on querus ta o ca mediko; omna= mediko esus apta.
la=C2=A0expresis tota determines= o: querez la mediko=C2=A0signifikas, ke on querez mediko partiku= lara, quan omnu konocas, tam la parolanto kam la askoltanto. Exemple, la= mediko qua kuracis diabetiko esis tre humana, ka ne?
ula<= /b>=C2=A0expresis midetermineso: querez ula mediko=C2=A0signi= fikas, ke on querez mediko, sive quan ne omnu konocas, sive quan omnu ne ko= nocas, sive qua ne povus esar irga=C2=A0mediko pro ula kauzo.= Exemple, on povus dicar querez ula mediko=C2=A0pro ke on bezonas ne= urokirurgiisto*, dum ke obstetrikisto esus tote ne apta.
[nu= lo] expresis=C2=A0nedetermineso:=C2=A0querez mediko=C2=A0sign= ifikas tam bone=C2=A0ula=C2=A0mediko kam=C2=A0irga=C2=A0medik= o. Exemple, la diabetiko bezonas preskripto di insulino da mediko.

Me esperas, ke mea exempli esas sat klara. Se= ne, voluntez avertar me.

Esas do tote justa, segu= n me, dicar ke ula=C2=A0signifikas =C2=ABinter la ed irga=C2=BB, nam= la=C2=A0expresas tota determineso, dum ke irga=C2=A0e= xpresas tota nedetermineso. Ma nun, ka certena=C2=A0signifika= s =C2=ABinter la ed ula=C2=BB? Kad on devas dicar, ke ula=C2=A0expre= sas =C2=ABtriimo de determineso=C2=BB e certena=C2=A0expresas =C2=AB= du triimi de determineso=C2=BB? Per adoptir =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB, on semblas= tote chanjir la logiko quan me deskriptis supre...

Mem en la epoko di la Akademio, on refuzis certena=C2=A0e ciert= a=C2=A0pro ke li vicigus=C2=A0(remplasigus)=C2=A0ula=C2= =A0kom adjektivo di midetermineso. Ma nun ni havas la du formi kunexistante= ma sen chanjir la senco di certa, e mem sen chanjir la logiko grama= tikala di nia pioniri! (determineso, midetermineso, nedetermineso).

On Thu, Jan 26, 201= 7 at 11:32 AM, 'Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [linguolisto] <linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

=

Pri "Dyer dicas, ke on uzez = =C2=ABula=C2=BB!", Dyer ne disponis la vorto "certena" nam o= l ne adoptesis til 1954, 30 yari pos edito di lua lexiki.
=C2=A0
Dyer disponis nur la vort= i ja adoptita od, adminime, ja propozita (e probable adoptota?). Quale en a= ltra kazi, il mustis uzar vorti existanta mem se li ne esis tote apta por f= idela traduko.
=C2=A0
Ica problemo ulagrade "afliktas" omna tradukado. nam sat o= fte ne existas exakta equivalanti inter un linguo ed altra. Kande linguo ne= havas exakta equivalanto, on mustas uzar vorto kun senco maxim proxima, fo= rsan adjuntante noto explikiva se la "eroro" esas sat grava.
=C2=A0
Tamen, adopt= ante nova vorti on ofte oblivias la bezono indikar samtempe ke vorti exista= nta povas, mem se ne chanjar sua senci, chanjar la larjeso di sua uzi. En m= ulta kazi, fortunoze, apta chanjo di uzo esas evidenta.
= =C2=A0
LNV (1988) indikas ke &quo= t;certena" esas "inter ula e certa, preske certa, certatra".= Ico indikas ke adminime un de ta du vorti, "ula" e "certa&q= uot;, pretendabis okupar tro multa spaco e nun mustas cedar spaco por akomo= dar la nova habitanto dil benko.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.
=C2= =A0
=C2=A0
Gilles-Philippe Mori= n gphmorin@gmail.co= m [linguolisto] - Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:33:02 -0500:=C2=A0
Me pluse lektis pri =C2=ABiu=C2= =BB e =C2=ABcerta=C2=BB en Esperanto.


iu: nedifinite= co (nedefiniteso)


certa:=C2=A0=C2=ABtute= difinita en la penso de la parolanto, kiu tamen ne sentas la bezonon pli p= recizigi=C2=BB (tote definita en la penso di la parolanto, qua tamen ne sen= tas la bezono plu precizigar=C2=BB
<= div style=3D"background-color:white">
Gon=C3=A7alo, to semblas konkordar kun tua defini di =C2=ABula=C2= =BB (iu) e di =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB (certa).


Tamen, me= pluse lektis, tafoye en la Angla:


certain
adjective
  1. Able to be firmly relied on to happen or be the case:
    'it'= ;s certain that more changes are in the offing'
    'she looks certa= in to win an Oscar'
    1. Having or showing complete cconviction about something:
      &#= 39;are you absolutely certain about this?'
    [attrib= utive] Specific but not explicitly named or stated:
    'he raise= d certain personal problems with me'
    'the exercise was ca= using him a certain amount of pain'
    1. Used when mentioning the name of someone not kn= own to the reader or hearer:
      'a certain General Percy captured th= e town'


Do, yen to es= is... la quar nura senci dil adjektivo =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB en la Ang= la.


Nu, on povas facile trovar qua vorto en Ido equi= valas singla senco:
1 certa (kozo)
1.1 certa (homo)
=
2 =C2= =ABcertena=C2=BB segun Gon=C3=A7alo (preciza ma tacata)
2.1 =C2=ABcerten= a=C2=BB segun Gon=C3=A7alo (preciza ma tacata)


=
Esas = do nula, nula=C2=A0senco disponebla por la vorto =C2=ABula=C2=BB, ka= ne?


Or, yen la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB segun = Dyer:


certain: certa, infalibla; to be c. = of: esar certa pri; c. day: ula dio;in a c. place: ul-loke;to make c. of something: cert-igar (ulo);<= b> become c.: cert-eskar; his ruin is c.: lua ruino esas infalib= la.


Ho ve! Quo eventas?! =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e = =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB povas havar nul altra senco kam certain 2= . Or Dyer dicas, ke on uzez =C2=ABula=C2=BB!
Rid= inde, la Wikivortaro kontenas amba vorti: =C2=ABula=C2=BB por =C2=ABcertain= day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB, ma =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB por la = cetero!
https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/certain
Ka = =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB esas ecepti?


Nu, la nura expliko quan me povas trovar esas: =C2=ABce= rtena=C2=BB esas sinonimo di =C2=ABula=C2=BB, od adminime sinonimo di ul= a senci=C2=A0di =C2=ABula=C2=BB, to esas, kande =C2=ABula=C2=BB repreze= ntas ulo preciza ma tacata.


Ula exempli en I= do-English konfirmas to:
ula dio en la lasta monato:=C2=A0one= day (=3D a certain day, but date not specified);
ula viro dece= nsis de Ierusalem a Ierico:=C2=A0a certain man (name not specified) wen= t down from Jerusalem to Jericho


Konseque, yen itere= mea questiono di ante tri dii:
Kad on chanjis la defino di la vo= rto =C2=ABula=C2=BB?

Altravorte, ka =C2=ABula= =C2=BB nun equivalas la vorto =C2=ABiu=C2=BB di Esperanto?
Ube esas = la oficala informo pri ta tre, tre grava chanjo?
Gil= les-Philippe


On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Gilles= -Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:

Kara Eberhard,
La = dicionario ne plus funcionas:=C2=A0http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dye= r_dictionary_web/


Espereble, Konstantin Yegupov = reparos lu.


Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Phil= ippe


2017-01-22 16:58 GMT-05:00 Eberhard Scholz eberhard.scho= lz@idolinguo.de [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0Kar amiki
per grand intereso me lektas preske mu= lta mesaji en ica forumo.
Me prizas la voloraza komenti dil experti. Tamen, ka la=C2=A0 direciono=C2=A0 es justa ? NI ya bezonas regardo vers = lo necesa.
Yen mesajo ek la Facebook , forumo "Ido".

<= /span>
Me havas problemo en trovar vortaro pri nova ("technologies= ") Ube esas ico vortaro en reto=C2=A0 questionas

=





=
=

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rDA0dQvkphwx39p4hGpzlvUeJYEak4vODTixAsV7GDOJFoW2uqQn8imjrqsUayv5ZvS5 mXkMvMx9AMqUkvSly2b8NkA3qA8Oa8fY8IWuowCSMz4Jl6kFSqbdVynpZjrK2dXIX0gh OlG7bgtuHO1unr1uxaZ7Kum30FREEEvaV67lEqMCyQv+r09hp95OJx7w5qovpv0hDAV1 Lnjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJh8NiP9k17yrX2yGjRzBfTqbiEOxLLoXNhnyk6r+7eDbAcxcsiN1uTULnUXEoNxTYXy7mVz4SqFOS2nw== X-Received: by 10.28.62.144 with SMTP id l138mr529405wma.50.1485470269717; Thu, 26 Jan 2017 14:37:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Jan 2017 14:37:49 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 17:37:49 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1148d536c04597054706ff4c Subject: =?UTF-8?B?wqthcnRpbGVyaW/Cuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1148d536c04597054706ff4c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pro quo on nihiligis ta decido dal Akademio? *Progreso*, VIII, 69: 1233. = On adoptas *artilrio* vice *artilerio*=E2=81=B5. 5. Analoge ad *infantrio*,= *kavalrio* (decidi 709, 732: IV, 693; V, 321). *Progreso*, IV, 693: 709.= On repulsas *kavalerio* (III, 491)=E2=81=B4. 4. Qua pro la nuva [nova] suf= ixo *-erio* esus dusenca. *Progreso*, V, 321: *732.* On adoptas *kavalrio= * por la specala militistal korpo=C2=B2. 2. Analoga ad *infanterio*, *artil= erio*, *jenio*. *Kaval-erio* havus altra senco. Nu, la Akademiani remplasi= gis artilerio* da =C2=ABartilrio=C2=BB *tote intencite*, por ke nia linguo = esez plu koheranta kun la konfliktala =C2=ABkavalrio=C2=BB e =C2=ABinfantri= o=C2=BB. 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Do, on povas tre facile remplasigar 'ridikula' per 'mokinda', 'moketinda', ka ne? -- Igor > > La vorto "ridikula" ne signifikas simple "ridigiva". > > Ridikula esas ta qua meritas rido e moko. Joko o komedio povas ridigar > sen esar ridikula. Ofte ulo ridikula esas absurda. "Ta chapelo esas > ridikula". > > Segun memoro, esis Andreas Juste qua propozis adopto dil vorto. > > Kordiale, > Robert C. > > > 'Igor V.' izoommm@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 09:50:52 > +0300: > Segun logiko vice 'ridinda' e 'shaminda' on mustas uzar 'ridigiva' e > 'shamigiva'. > Parenteze, malgre defino di '-ind-' en KGD tote libere uzesas anke > 'ridinda' en plura loki! E to ya es ridigiva! > > -- > Igor From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4993 Return-Path: X-Sender: ido@avenue.me.uk X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 31482 invoked by uid 102); 27 Jan 2017 14:33:44 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.142) by m8.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 2017 14:33:44 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 13789 invoked from network); 27 Jan 2017 14:33:44 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq3.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Jan 2017 14:33:44 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: none (domain of avenue.me.uk does not designate permitted sender hosts) X-YMailISG: LnZG1c8WLDv_HSC2PjCPXxEWiIVKssNXwLPdqehREKBA6mmm 1JyXit.FPldbkttkQ0vOhcu0J7U3gQHa2H__rZaUMLJPep_etcwaXtFDfd8O 7AMD1Qdsujgw2.To5vn_Z_r4lyOzZgThPE9v3U.ovJZyOlg1M7JsHLnQQ2us 3Gpq0FTMdzhrjP1rGDTesfCaEstB4Ye6zjIulMC5EsSKXQpf3ZJbkpEpNAdG 0NEE9wcCIqrhY40GB1CxyEf7M8I7ksbK.jNsBrRq92.fQeCN3Rx1dD_OI_ns bIHiIcrJHtKEtqCbBlCV_VcGu33MN1XFPgD7JLcbmzifzPUV_2GxARpsIzjO SKZ4FyTzb3jtVkM1D3mBiavTF29fMcQMLHA2bAI54HAfXnHRbjjktfEzSul3 hjZuViweCi3LtXO51JyD1uzOY.xPhpPX1nlEmVU2XByNH4mppEhTrx80Ecbc zBYoCftNu_G6iZg6wK4wYA9zq32uiiGJecCbsbjl0jkMrzOt_LWtcj2jddLe 11dgV8YDiEXrgP2q0DNF31SefewasDlsuIFFSagW0Y6Wjoxk.Jv7PMJ4Hqa4 0UbLllZP.FMMdMAclFy9ZDUPUuItgOsT2wWjXjZ1C3gocA_umxE32WXgSPB5 tCRFKJJaOiF2ZFq6fDTp4CxwvJfFd8_cYpfjmZyDwyJpJp1IA7e3ONlcYpro WR8bomkrmdx8nMWLXEfQpw3NdB6Hc98hybz1ftzvp8qEWpH.3dujROj7WbwN kOHcLGgjHu1akkr7AX4mh.0ZHaKtKMRjmOpGuoIjEgfdf0c5Qp3o5NLkWDuS hTDqoUgD6CGEt8lBGPih2HYzfWCANRnIJIO2P6P6IJhKwmt.Pg2bKpupWtFl PiyQS4kp4FV3PAhjZAO1NB8jLZ6zhNDUXhA8tWbwbe5GBE26DeIHCWfZIOEv wcsYTXK4HnqE0MfyHmbbPIi6sTrrfJ7NI10ye8lZhxCSqr3K1bBzgVVK6..0 97k29YS9wWui9C3uyrR_OljsYsv_RB.Qn9dEypy94f6xYTYeX8SDs5VYaheg _vdyjkCuNGFw.XgyRCg01TNCWrkPGZevOWAgWvvO33hv6srTLqN_tqgy2C66 xdUhi4jdfRPJ5kTkvjy10ekepwV53pSB7xRPo2xJANXRLIyRu0WoMgp9GTb4 w.7jHI6PKQlQdhdPFdmI86i9hsmYwTLPxqXTtGKl Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=avenue.me.uk; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=avenue.me.uk; dkim=neutral (no sig) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO avasout05.plus.net) (84.93.230.250) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Fri, 27 Jan 2017 14:33:43 +0000 X-Received: from D9B5MN3J ([84.92.140.94]) by avasout05 with smtp id dSZe1u00922PmwL01SZiGL; Fri, 27 Jan 2017 14:33:42 +0000 X-CM-Score: 0.00 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=Hr8GIwbS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=l5EBpI9poBEPEXryPso8tA==:117 a=l5EBpI9poBEPEXryPso8tA==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1UhrZpe2VIYA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=CjxXgO3LAAAA:8 a=qV0mfD4mAAAA:8 a=W0ILjKZyIeIv7TWtRD0A:9 a=2HAXmtZNJHlT_7Mj:21 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=frz4AuCg-hUA:10 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=yHmpGuN2Kb8A:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 a=_E8DXSXWC0jInl61zbkG:22 a=mnVZ7iNJyew7AB3q5ROZ:22 X-AUTH: tribble@:2500 To: X-Mailer: Pocomail 4.8 (4400) - Licensed Version Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 14:33:40 GMT Message-ID: <2017127143340.897988@D9B5MN3J> In-Reply-To: <5a11ce95-a294-aa69-6db9-06c46484be5e@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[linguo]_=C2=ABridikula=C2=BB?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=347562246 From: "Robert C."
No, nam reakto ad ulo od ulu "ridikula" kombinas du reakti: rido e moko.
Ne omno qua meritas moko anke meritas rido, e ne omno qua meritas rido anke meritas moko.
Robert C.
 
 
'Igor V.' izoommm@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Fri, 27 Jan 2017 14:55:59 +0300: 
Do, on povas tre facile remplasigar 'ridikula' per 'mokinda',
'moketinda', ka ne?

--
 Igor

>
 > La vorto "ridikula" ne signifikas simple "ridigiva".
>
 > Ridikula esas ta qua meritas rido e moko. Joko o komedio povas ridigar
> sen esar ridikula. Ofte ulo ridikula esas absurda. "Ta chapelo esas
> ridikula".
>
 > Segun memoro, esis Andreas Juste qua propozis adopto dil vorto.
>
 > Kordiale,
> Robert C.
>
 >
 > 'Igor V.' izoommm@gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 26 Jan 2017 09:50:52
> +0300:
 > Segun logiko vice 'ridinda' e 'shaminda' on mustas uzar 'ridigiva' e
> 'shamigiva'.
> Parenteze, malgre defino di '-ind-' en KGD tote libere uzesas anke
> 'ridinda' en plura loki! E to ya es ridigiva!
>
 > --
 > Igor


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Do, sive on dicez =C2=ABridar ulu=C2=BB e re= pulsez =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB (pro neutileso), sive on dicez =C2=ABridikula= =C2=BB e repulsez la transitiveso di =C2=ABridar=C2=BB. Me informez vi, ke= la transitiva uzo di =C2=ABridar=C2=BB venas historiale di arkaika transit= iva formo di la verbo =C2=ABridi=C2=BB en Esperanto, quan Zamenhof uzis. ht= tp://vortaro.net/#ridi =C2=ABdubitar=C2=BB esas anke transitiva en Esperan= to (=C2=ABdubi=C2=BB). Pri la yena frazo: *Do cafoye la KGD montras su koh= eranta e furnisas a ni la necesa instrumenti por klare solvar la questiono,= e por identifikar l=E2=80=99eroro aperceptante ube ol esas.* Me deskonkor= das, nam la KGD explikas nulo pri la problemo di *kontreagar*, *kontreaseku= rar*, *kontredicar*, e.c. On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:50 PM, qualevistandas= @yahoo.es [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote: > > > Ne nur= en la KGD, ma anke che Dyer (ed en Espo) soldesas la sufixo -ind- a > plur= a verbi teorie ne-transitiva: fidinda, ridinda, shaminda, dubinda, edc. > K= a vere ne-transitiva? Yen interesiva studiuro dal amiko Tiberio en ilua > P= rilingua letraro: > https://lingletr.blogspot.com.es/2012/08/pri-fidinda-e-= simila-kazi_8.html > > (Partaka) > > > > > > > > > --001a1145b04a161af60547182ba3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Partaka, danko pro la informo.
Do, sive on dicez= =C2=ABridar ulu=C2=BB e repulsez =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB (pro neutileso), siv= e on dicez =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB e repulsez la transitiveso di =C2=ABridar= =C2=BB.

Me informez vi, ke la transitiva uzo di =C2=ABri= dar=C2=BB venas historiale di arkaika transitiva formo di la verbo =C2=ABri= di=C2=BB en Esperanto, quan Zamenhof uzis.

= =C2=ABdubitar=C2=BB esas anke transitiva en Esperanto (=C2=ABdubi=C2=BB).

Pri la yena frazo:
Do cafoye la KGD mo= ntras su koheranta e furnisas a ni la necesa instrumenti por klare solvar l= a questiono, e por identifikar l=E2=80=99eroro aperceptante ube ol esas.

Me deskonkordas, nam la KGD explikas = nulo pri la problemo di kontreagar, kontreasekurar,=C2=A0k= ontredicar, e.c.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 12:50 PM, qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Ne nur en la KGD, ma anke che Dyer (ed en Espo) soldesas la sufixo= -ind- a plura verbi teorie ne-transitiva: fidinda, ridinda, shaminda, dubi= nda, edc. Ka vere ne-transitiva? Yen interesiva studiuro dal amiko Tiberio = en ilua Prilingua letraro:=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka)

=C2= =A0


=C2=A0<= /div>

=C2=A0

=

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Sat, 28 Jan 2017 17:35:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Sat, 28 Jan 2017 17:35:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 20:35:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1148d5361127aa054731b770 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrcmlkaWt1bGHCuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1148d5361127aa054731b770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tu donis bona exemplo: mediokra* esas neoficala e lu restez neoficala. Simi= le, mem se =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB uldie desoficaleskus, tu sempre povos uzar = lu kun asterisko... 2017-01-28 7:40 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [lin= guolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Me ne renuncos la formo "r= idikula", quan me bezonas (apud "ridinda", se > justa). Same, me bezonas la= formo "mediokra", nam "pasabla, pasableta, > mezvalora, edc." ne suficas a= me. Mem se amba-kaze li esus absolute > sinonima, li existez! > > (Partak= a) > > > --001a1148d5361127aa054731b770 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tu donis bona exemplo: mediokra* esas neoficala e lu reste= z neoficala. Simile, mem se =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB uldie desoficaleskus, tu s= empre povos uzar lu kun asterisko...

2017-01-28 7:40 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Me ne renuncos la formo "ridikula", quan me bezonas (apud &quo= t;ridinda", se justa). Same, me bezonas la formo "mediokra",= nam "pasabla, pasableta, mezvalora, edc." ne suficas a me. Mem s= e amba-kaze li esus absolute sinonima, li existez!=C2=A0


=C2=A0(Partaka)

=
=

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X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a11469ee6adf64805473281d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Partaka, voluntez adjuntar asterisko pos (od ante) la neoficala vorti quin = tu uzas. *Difikulta** esas neoficala. L'asterisko posibligas al novici sav= ar, kad ula vorto (o senco di la vorto) esas oficala o ne (to esas tre grav= a!), e lu anke helpas la futura linguala komitati sequar la uzo ed evoluado= di propozata vorti (qui uldie forsan adoptesos, ya rapide o lente). Quo m= axim surprizas me, esas ke Esperanto ankore ne oficaligis vorti tal quala = =C2=ABpla=C4=9Do=C2=BB (plajo). Malgre to, demandez ad Esperantisto, quon t= a vorto signifikas, e preke certe lu savos lo (evidente se lua vortaro ment= ala ne esas povra...). Oficaleso ne tante importas. Esperanto vivas, mem se= multa vorti ne adoptesas. La dicionarii di Esperanto ne sufras, malgre to.= .. konsultez PIV, lu kontenas tanta neoficalaji, ke on trovas mem vorti tal= quala =C2=ABmava=C2=BB (mala) e =C2=ABliva=C2=BB (sinistra), quin certe la= plumulto de Esperantisti ne konocas! Praktikala =C2=ABoficalatreso=C2=BB = tante fakte importas, ke me nun vidas la neoficala =C2=ABhola*=C2=BB uzata = tre ofte, dum ke me nultempe vidis segunoficalesa uzo di la vera =C2=ABhola= =C2=BB. Praktikala =C2=ABoficalatreso=C2=BB tante fakte importas, ke la vo= rto =C2=ABmojosa=C2=BB en Esperanto divenas preske tam populara kam =C2=ABb= one=C2=BB e =C2=ABsaluto=C2=BB. Cadie, on ne povas asertar esar =C2=AByuna= =C2=BB e =C2=ABsegunmoda=C2=BB Esperantisto sen konocar la vorto =C2=ABmojo= sa=C2=BB! Certe me ne povas argumentar pri =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB vice =C2=AB= potato=C2=BB, nam me esas stulta Francaparolanto qua ignoras la parolanti d= i altra lingui, t.e. =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB venas de mea denaska linguo e de l= a Germana (pomme de terre, Erdapfel). Ma certe la centi e centi de Idisti = qui mortis ante 2001 bitre regretas en sua tombi ne vivir epoko en qua li h= avus =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB vice =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB... Ho la kompatindi. Simi= le ni, vivanta Idisti, ploros en nia tombi kande on oficaligos vorto plu = =C2=ABlogikala=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABinternaciona=C2=BB, plu =C2=AByusta=C2=BB, = plu =C2=ABbela=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABbelsona=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABkurta=C2=BB, plu = =C2=ABserchebla=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABne-Esperanta=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABmoderna=C2= =BB, kam *mar-hundo*. Quala senlogika e shovinista vorto, ho ve! Mea Franca= cerebro liquideskas kande lu probas lernar tala senlogikajo e neinternacio= najo! Tro desfacila! Tro mala! Tro hororinda! Nam vere =C2=ABmarhundo=C2= =BB igas nia linguo tre desfacila, ka ne? *Ka ne?* En altra vorti: se en l= a yardeko 1920 on uzis ula vorto, quan on judikis sat apta por expresar ula= ideo, qua ne chanjis pos preske cent yari (exemple =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB), p= ro quo on chanjez lu ecepte pro eroro gramatikala (exemple =C2=ABridinda=C2= =BB) o supozata eroro ortografiala (exemple =C2=ABdelico=C2=BB)? Certe vor= ti tal quala =C2=ABputano=C2=BB (qua dum yardeki ne bezonesis ulmaniere, na= m =C2=ABprostitucito=C2=BB ja satisfacabis nia hungro radikala) devus ofica= leskar *pos* vorti tam importanta kam komputero*, qua esas un ek la mokaji = di nia linguo. (Ignorez ti qui uzas ta vorto kom argumento por asertar, ke = Ido esas mortinta ed uzata nur da oldi qui ne savas, quale funcionas komput= ero*. Yes, ignorez li!) 2017-01-28 15:50 GMT-05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es= [linguolisto] < linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > > > Segun semblo, esas ad= vere difikulta oficaligar nova Ido-vorti tote > senkonteste, yen pro quo me= ne savas ka preferindesas agar rapide o > desrapide oficale. Yen nur kelka= nova Ido-vorti ofical, qui kontestesis e > ne aceptesis da ulu od altru: p= otato, judaismo, judaisto, putano, kruo, > etnio (ultre "revuo", "konto", e= dc.). Quale agar por maxim granda > fidindeso? Kad oficaligar nur pos longa= uzado ed interkonkordo dal > Ido-uzanti? Ka plu rapide e nur pos diskuto e= d interkonsento? > > > (Partaka) > > > --001a11469ee6adf64805473281d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Partaka, voluntez adjuntar asterisko pos (od ante) la neof= icala vorti quin tu uzas. Difikulta* esas neoficala.

<= div>L'asterisko posibligas al novici savar, kad ula vorto (o senco di l= a vorto) esas oficala o ne (to esas tre grava!), e lu anke helpas la futura= linguala komitati sequar la uzo ed evoluado di propozata vorti (qui uldie = forsan adoptesos, ya rapide o lente).

Quo maxim su= rprizas me, esas ke Esperanto ankore ne oficaligis vorti tal quala =C2=ABpl= a=C4=9Do=C2=BB (plajo). Malgre to, demandez ad Esperantisto, quon ta vorto = signifikas, e preke certe lu savos lo (evidente se lua vortaro mentala ne e= sas povra...). Oficaleso ne tante importas. Esperanto vivas, mem se multa v= orti ne adoptesas. La dicionarii di Esperanto ne sufras, malgre to... konsu= ltez PIV, lu kontenas tanta neoficalaji, ke on trovas mem vorti tal quala = =C2=ABmava=C2=BB (mala) e =C2=ABliva=C2=BB (sinistra), quin certe la plumul= to de Esperantisti ne konocas!

Praktikala =C2=ABof= icalatreso=C2=BB tante fakte importas, ke me nun vidas la neoficala =C2=ABh= ola*=C2=BB uzata tre ofte, dum ke me nultempe vidis segunoficalesa uzo di l= a vera =C2=ABhola=C2=BB.

Praktikala =C2=ABoficalat= reso=C2=BB tante fakte importas, ke la vorto =C2=ABmojosa=C2=BB en Esperant= o divenas preske tam populara kam =C2=ABbone=C2=BB e =C2=ABsaluto=C2=BB. Ca= die, on ne povas asertar esar =C2=AByuna=C2=BB e =C2=ABsegunmoda=C2=BB Espe= rantisto sen konocar la vorto =C2=ABmojosa=C2=BB!

Certe me ne= povas argumentar pri =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB vice =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB, nam me e= sas stulta Francaparolanto qua ignoras la parolanti di altra lingui, t.e. = =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB venas de mea denaska linguo e de la Germana (pomme de t= erre, Erdapfel).

Ma certe la centi e centi de Idis= ti qui mortis ante 2001 bitre regretas en sua tombi ne vivir epoko en qua l= i havus =C2=ABpotato=C2=BB vice =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB... Ho la kompatindi.

Simile ni, vivanta Idisti, ploros en nia tombi kande= on oficaligos vorto plu =C2=ABlogikala=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABinternaciona=C2=BB= , plu =C2=AByusta=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABbela=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABbelsona=C2=BB, plu= =C2=ABkurta=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABserchebla=C2=BB, plu =C2=ABne-Esperanta=C2=BB= , plu =C2=ABmoderna=C2=BB, kam mar-hundo. Quala senlogika e shovinis= ta vorto, ho ve! Mea Franca cerebro liquideskas kande lu probas lernar tala= senlogikajo e neinternacionajo! Tro desfacila! Tro mala! Tro hororinda!

Nam vere =C2=ABmarhundo=C2=BB igas nia linguo tre de= sfacila, ka ne? Ka ne?

En altra vorti: se e= n la yardeko 1920 on uzis ula vorto, quan on judikis sat apta por expresar = ula ideo, qua ne chanjis pos preske cent yari (exemple =C2=ABterpomo=C2=BB)= , pro quo on chanjez lu ecepte pro eroro gramatikala (exemple =C2=ABridinda= =C2=BB) o supozata eroro ortografiala (exemple =C2=ABdelico=C2=BB)?

Certe vorti tal quala =C2=ABputano=C2=BB (qua dum yardeki= ne bezonesis ulmaniere, nam =C2=ABprostitucito=C2=BB ja satisfacabis nia h= ungro radikala) devus oficaleskar pos=C2=A0vorti tam importanta kam = komputero*, qua esas un ek la mokaji di nia linguo. (Ignorez ti qui uzas ta= vorto kom argumento por asertar, ke Ido esas mortinta ed uzata nur da oldi= qui ne savas, quale funcionas komputero*. Yes, ignorez li!)

2017-01-28 15:50 GMT= -05:00 qualevistandas@yahoo.es [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

=

Segun semblo, esas advere difikulta o= ficaligar nova Ido-vorti tote senkonteste, yen pro quo me ne savas ka prefe= rindesas agar rapide o desrapide oficale. Yen nur kelka nova Ido-vorti ofic= al, qui kontestesis e ne aceptesis da ulu od altru: potato, judaismo, judai= sto, putano, kruo, etnio (ultre "revuo", "konto", edc.)= . Quale agar por maxim granda fidindeso? Kad oficaligar nur pos longa uzado= ed interkonkordo dal Ido-uzanti? Ka plu rapide e nur pos diskuto ed interk= onsento?=C2=A0


<= p>=C2=A0(Partaka) =C2=A0

=

--001a11469ee6adf64805473281d8-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 5000 Return-Path: X-Sender: izoommm@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 22851 invoked by uid 102); 29 Jan 2017 08:53:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.36) by m7.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jan 2017 08:53:46 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 16612 invoked from network); 29 Jan 2017 08:53:46 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq5.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 29 Jan 2017 08:53:46 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.215.45 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: vq1OqpEWLDvAVLwZ0kjmtWpKBCvvzgO1BJZXW50rJXz3Nl8X MEgTvADw7ipGpr2V35PVARcEXiIX6J4K.ALVwBtYSh5Shdg.mPv_RNWPw82L 3Z0.rxL0tFKnlsH2bkN9.55ht6_zoX0FpvY_j4zhtjn2FAZ2uX57SFaUtxf. 8J6KsVMaOyKhZ8b3GGn3fbB34JMSQl7IEMCyboNb1_XSvtlsJ8YFZpAwDIUb czVADMomqF2KTqRrsqISYPVrm9zLjvq76.7CWv9fWxkFvrE2bD44DjB6k_iK QPjoboB5y_ikzM07xm4xUaV0Mfp96y35MVvXvpZNA1dbN0BFZMjLi_6Iuzcc uSq2CR9l4wrVzcH7__9V8JuUmzDzU8VM19S4LfstrDjuC0fmrcV3112qdlhX 1Un7sjQpfEt8UDO3n4gmgKJ1l5h_m6fGHDRItI6gZNiFYagZPHsO.K0EFmCx TcbnAIbyjjKm2h5J2W8qkmXMIjeRUHxUOL_yLNSV7qgnV9CJdEu4udQ_GoNH dCH43IvLaYMuL5a273IWCO2NbNTm0vndfXDvx9tf89GsQEfBGlEFFilPs7UN 02XjpnKGbEnE7dLLXHnObxUZ1FQghZkbi8S.6VqhXPSTzNghK.iNII8ozhbR XXPk1jAHINwVVgwA2ePB8LkhTvNn0KRwZR3bhYtO9DrH7lefe6F.MdaIb0SQ uRAHMyfuSwNsY1_4moYbbGJWaQpFxG.4zup1gp1RQQUlxTHSqlawlo4lz1F1 2m1daakQjL5L1wqMAqDrVg7Jbjt2lKkCO4ub2Wp3vojZYq7EMwgQ6cXg6QLC hTrdVwj1brvq7f.4P5HCV9ddL6yYpGZtk1Kd36YSEDPX4H1kxj6x8OJmkLJZ H95l7lzoe_HI9REZqjpNnrmkMcNUyV.NXu2GSFSOwB4hZVGCokBBS7SQV4di kzyt_Ra1pTGzLiJVBwrGXfutFPIBJnSdzuc3Okom4uBmm8T9w1zI6J5Lt8NP ArAlY0IekfNRJEBa0PJ2Io0cefp9x9G6wROFn09yXMdk8oRysXy5WMNwf6Re zReguDac2l3gWDEzSXC0lCP7B8iLaVPlDBjrzB3cd1e5QPaIsdlxoh8o.W3O UVfqMc18DGbJ.r2MkzmY2LSv7vlcp99Y_YucstBT5szLxNR5r9Y_x3CHR5b8 Uurby1HgX1IcEQGteBq0m5Vm42zL3IM- Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-lf0-f45.google.com) (209.85.215.45) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Sun, 29 Jan 2017 08:53:46 +0000 X-Received: by mail-lf0-f45.google.com with SMTP id v186so181227663lfa.1 for ; Sun, 29 Jan 2017 00:53:45 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yP/ycdIdl7W8w1M5pg9f6k1Q75vbnJyKTL6c0yCZJ2E=; b=MotBLEyuNrfQLpai1i3G4VXpHxfWSvmOuxh9EP4pDxj8STr7VyrZ9g9kOZeDhG8Cky SlA2h7QpzJyR/DEyjI5U3copILFdjbK39Hpvt6apN7hhla3y38ldpxmpzC90puXlH83h undGi+l6xA7XtM8K3tpdM/VB0U1vHL3G+zY4iMbiLCK2Zcl0F5c6lVTmCKw4kxa2dbo6 UqBHu0SF1dfJfV1uzCmMcSOvu/ItVAEZf1jZzxOznW/8durT/nZVXLGuqvQRRziYDdqL WeMJbv8RErA90aCGoXifrI8NLaqVAhf7q/juROrYYz8O2Glqz6gPboNMPOhgEPEtfkcq xeFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLRakKLF0HrWD8dhYbo6ye9c+zPu3s528UbExjW7XTqkKvk5DX4B4IlMwUcR3WKVw== X-Received: by 10.25.67.84 with SMTP id m20mr5594568lfj.106.1485680024386; Sun, 29 Jan 2017 00:53:44 -0800 (PST) X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received: from [192.168.0.49] ([188.114.1.111]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 66sm2728339lfy.42.2017.01.29.00.53.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Jan 2017 00:53:43 -0800 (PST) To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com References: Message-ID: <86ce1109-a9b2-7461-eab3-25438ffca838@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 11:53:37 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_[linguo]_=c2=aba=c2=bb_ante_infinitivo?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=319317792; y=jNsgLXGUKkNdWRP4g_XX2tD7hwA19C4zBNmaeD6vECj8TQ X-Yahoo-Profile: izoommm From: "Igor V." > > Ka la uzo sequanta di «a» esas gramatikale korekta? > > «Preparez tu a mokesar da multi.» > Kara Gilles-Philippe, on darfas uzar omna prepozicioni avan infinitivo en la sama kazi por qui on uzus li avan equivalanta substantivo. -- Igor
Pro quo on nihiligis ta decido dal Akademio?

Progreso, VIII, 69:

1233. On adoptas = artilrio=C2=A0vice artilerio=E2=81=B5.
5. Analoge a= d infantrio, kavalrio=C2=A0(decidi 709, 732: IV, 693; V, 321)= .

Progreso, IV, 693:

709. On repulsas kavalerio=C2=A0(III, 491)=E2=81=B4.
4.= Qua pro la nuva [nova] sufixo -erio=C2=A0esus dusenca.
Progreso, V, 321:

732.= =C2=A0On adoptas kavalrio=C2=A0por la specala militistal korpo=C2=B2= .
2. Analoga ad infanterio, artilerio, jenio= . Kaval-erio=C2=A0havus altra senco.

Nu, la= Akademiani remplasigis artilerio* da =C2=ABartilrio=C2=BB tote intencit= e, por ke nia linguo esez plu koheranta kun la konfliktala =C2=ABkavalr= io=C2=BB e =C2=ABinfantrio=C2=BB. Li certe savis, ke esas nula konflikto ku= n =C2=ABartilerio=C2=BB. Tamen, on malgre to adoptis =C2=ABartilrio=C2=BB <= i>pro analogeso.

2017-01-22 16:58 GMT-05:00 Eberhard Scholz eberhard.scholz@idolinguo.de [ling= uolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

= Kar amiki
per grand intereso me lektas preske multa mesaji en ic= a forumo.
Me prizas la voloraza komenti dil experti.
Tamen,= ka la=C2=A0 direciono=C2=A0 es justa ? NI ya bezonas regardo vers lo n= ecesa.
Yen mesajo ek la Facebook , forumo "Ido".
=

Javier Vega Bravo<= /a>
questionas

Me havas problemo en trovar vortaro pri nova ("technolo= gies") Ube esas ico vortaro en reto=C2=A0 questionas
=

=


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[2] (per extenso di la senco) Tre m= ala, senimporte desestiminda. [3] Sen komuna raciono. [4] (per extenso di l= a senco) Senvalora. On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin= wrote: > Bone, danko! Me konsideras skribar defino d= i amba vorti en Wikivortaro. > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Gon=C3=A7= alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com > [linguolisto] = wrote: > >> >> >> Supozeble, yes. >> >> 2017-01-21 21:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-P= hilippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Bone, danko! Do ka =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB inkluzas omna = senci adjektivala di la >>> Franca =C2=ABridicule=C2=BB? >>> >>> http://www= .cnrtl.fr/definition/ridicule >>> >>> >> >> > > --f403045eadda472a330546bb4dc5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quala vi judikas ta defini?

ridikul-= a: (e rid-ind-a:)
[1] Qua esas di naturo produkta= nta rido, ecitanta moko.
[2] (per extenso di la senco) Tre mala, = senimporte desestiminda.=C2=A0
[3] Sen komuna raciono.
= [4] (per extenso di la senco) Senvalora.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 4:23 PM, G= illes-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
Bone, danko! Me konsideras skribar= defino di amba vorti en Wikivortaro.

On Sat, J= an 21, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <li= nguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=C2=A0

Supozeble, yes.

2017-01-21 21:05 GMT+00:00 Gilles-P= hilippe Morin gphmo= rin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com= >:
=C2=A0
=

Bone, danko! Do ka =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB ink= luzas omna senci adjektivala di la Franca =C2=ABridicule=C2=BB?


<= /div>



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Mon, 23 Jan 2017 09:24:16 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] A bit, byte Thread-Index: AQHSdMQN94MhJe90K061sTf3qmGunKFEozOAgAEnb3s= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 09:24:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:E3436793370713246DF6FB8710AA391268FF81F876B7265538F81A5A3432EF66;UpperCasedChecksum:532607A0C265B83A01E9846498BED5DC8392E9614A7FB9506B8E070C71DEB87E;SizeAsReceived:7643;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [tpHO+7Hpv5u9cLW9Q7Q9qYHiadqrH9AB] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;AM5EUR03HT242;7:xinh68Drof6icsNfUviyVXl2+zwtXTVVDo+Q7vycK3prl1CypHZdI+qnvu6kJWwvjW8f208dsyY/IEt0Tzf8kNyuPMqw2kYTR0i/nHfHFl6SaN3HtHd8ETrz3/Ai3ttFazdamYZVKe0+qeYtFZqRNxDbgWmWSeDsztms1YaFASN0vf56QG3TjiwBhHHsLGCxLA3xIUZ+DcBulFWiJ/OWDy5YoUQkiPu6CA8RCeLbhEkrGTYHmMiTeF2/Xxjj+fdHaKiS6p+x7xTFa2c94SVsbCsPBp7UHWF20Q7XWGEDmMPsdKUcMPUXmO2+5DM88Zxj6FBRtRGUM5RzUi6AJ//7V5Sz9JzwE7khZ6BwRFVjcmUR5n2fzmc4WJbCtOTePZm3TzwqEQzgJPKTI4XgSQ6ZaE9QAdBkJIcv4Xm6S/4xf4ld5ih7X5AAqOWSLSSApvUMUp5n0IIvKocwPVlnhGPwXQ== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:AM5EUR03HT242;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4d947d13-60b3-42fe-3109-08d443719a23 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(5061507293)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:AM5EUR03HT242; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(82015046);SRVR:AM5EUR03HT242;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:AM5EUR03HT242; x-forefront-prvs: 0196A226D1 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB13978A516DABC068CB631A9FA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2017 09:24:16.1034 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM5EUR03HT242 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2017 09:24:18.0735 (UTC) FILETIME=[792833F0:01D2755A] Subject: Re: [linguo] A bit, byte X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=bm-XT2UIu5LE3eV3_3o5mWBhS-mjlBps-oaipWDvHnk X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_000_DB5PR03MB13978A516DABC068CB631A9FFA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kara Gilles-Philippe Danko pro vua respondo. To ne vere esis mea questio= no, ma semblas ke vu deskovris enigmato. Oportas klarigar la senco di bit.= o La vorto quan me bezonas tradukar esas "byte". JC _________________= _______________ From: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] Sent: 22 January 2017 15:44 To: Linguolisto Sub= ject: Re: [linguo] A bit, byte Ka =ABbito=BB esas oficale dusenca? En Dy= er, lu esas vorto navala. Regretinde, la Lexiko semblas ignoris ta fakto...= --_000_DB5PR03MB13978A516DABC068CB631A9FFA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kara Gilles-Philipp= e


Danko pro vua respondo.  To ne vere esis mea que= stiono, ma semblas ke vu deskovris enigmato.  Oportas klarigar la senc= o di bit.o


La vorto quan me bezonas tradukar esas "= ;byte".


JC



=
From: linguolisto@yahoogrou= ps.com on behalf of Gilles-Philippe Mor= in gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto]
= Sent: 22 January 2017 15:44
To: Linguolisto
Subje= ct: Re: [linguo] A bit, byte
 

=
Ka =ABbito=BB esas oficale dusenca? En Dyer, lu esas = vorto navala. Regretinde, la Lexiko semblas ignoris ta fakto...
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Mon, 23 Jan 2017 16:40:34 +0000 To: "linguolisto@yahoogroups.com" Thread-Topic: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor Thread-Index: AQHScAvcNLuqkWCQmEGsI24A1jDPr6E7RmiAgAEiAa6AACfygIAABmGwgAAOQQCAAAWDroAACxa7gAAaF4CAAAKaT4AAFBAAgAAShYCAABQWw4AABRAAgAK1WMyAACQ/AIAAER4KgAAKYGqAAMOCgIAAbKwAgAAgqPiAAYu1AIAAEXvRgAAEd4CAAAeWO4ADShb3 Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 16:40:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: ,, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: yahoogroups.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;yahoogroups.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=hotmail.com; x-incomingtopheadermarker: OriginalChecksum:F2E66F455EFBB734235036B7A72A9E75E45C1EA303FC90EE8800D701F10C8BC2;UpperCasedChecksum:D5207C45588A88A3DDD1F6E9B4E8F1F8C0B27825C13A0EC5B6341C49070E9FE5;SizeAsReceived:9692;Count:39 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-tmn: [kOukQ7ZXdagVgRtzash18ZD9/O7d5pKM] x-incomingheadercount: 39 x-eopattributedmessage: 0 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;DB5EUR03HT153;7:FCrFM6fW/yL06a3YXOiTgrrU/8XQPtm5kiPIXRWFTIzveKdZ37JKr5y8NqZu9wDZ3PHnf4S/Q1imFcwOShvDkVf8AzTfoBTFiWMFUCevc0s0cQNlA+ATIUviYELftSPqdD30YBfmfGaFCoI50MSNiyBmBCiaa0rF3DDuUnV/O292Z2T6Q7trG568fccVYoVmWTF1ebFTckR48ZHjy8tGJzXRo2uGWLKTh7fOucn2uqpZ9fDz3/gy3SfxskRGs/+y/AuU0yAAkZYoXe2yHtcY5ImrElqjrikLRq7uVkgmLU9lx+PmEGVXJP1rjO4WlbP+Dse9nAZr/NKt/LYuQqyZWpnEZ5fWGHnZtz+2PNj4YmRX4g8m0Bo2KwNWjUNAafQtzV0Vvbn3af36eV4Wo12BE/j4zfglY+y6jbo4T2iolqeR4nd6lfNsRCTq+CtseFQ3utMlOwB+40ZbFEaEwd5nVA== x-forefront-antispam-report: EFV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10019020)(98900005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102;SCL:1;SRVR:DB5EUR03HT153;H:DB5PR03MB1397.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;LANG:; x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f0eccf9b-2802-4f58-df78-08d443ae8db3 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(22001)(1601124038)(5061506344)(1603103113)(1601125047)(1701031023);SRVR:DB5EUR03HT153; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(444111334)(444112120)(432015012)(102415395)(82015046);SRVR:DB5EUR03HT153;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:DB5EUR03HT153; x-forefront-prvs: 0196A226D1 spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_DB5PR03MB13978533B1ED7499335304DAA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: hotmail.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2017 16:40:34.4686 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Internet X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 84df9e7f-e9f6-40af-b435-aaaaaaaaaaaa X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5EUR03HT153 X-Original-Return-Path: idojc@hotmail.com X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jan 2017 16:40:37.0529 (UTC) FILETIME=[6CEF2890:01D27597] Subject: Re: [linguo] Frazi bezonata por VisualEditor X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=24528831; y=FawHZvX7T2S2RLuiOoNXWZtwLa2RZnEt2g_AxMDYUGQ X-Yahoo-Profile: idojc From: James Chandler --_004_DB5PR03MB13978533B1ED7499335304DAAA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB5PR03MB13978533B1ED7499335304DAA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_" --_000_DB5PR03MB13978533B1ED7499335304DAAA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yen la nuna stando di progreso che VisualEditor. Me tradukis 80% del frazi= en la "MediaWiki extension", ma me kredas ke la tasko vinkis me. Me opini= onas ke, por finar ica laboro, ni bezonas esquado, o helpo de la siori di W= ikipedia. Normale por tala "lokaligo" on employas esquado de profesionala = tradukisti, qui laboras kun la developeri por tradukar a singla "lokala" li= nguo (Ido ne esas vere lokala, ma globala linguo, ma la procedo esas sama!)= . [cid:dfe37acd-2372-4140-99d2-529e808f4b43] --_000_DB5PR03MB13978533B1ED7499335304DAAA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yen la nuna stando = di progreso che VisualEditor.  Me tradukis 80% del frazi en la "M= ediaWiki extension", ma me kredas ke la tasko vinkis me.  Me opin= ionas ke, por finar ica laboro, ni bezonas esquado, o helpo de la siori di = Wikipedia.  Normale por tala "lokaligo" on employas esquado= de profesionala tradukisti, qui laboras kun la developeri por tradukar a s= ingla "lokala" linguo (Ido ne esas vere lokala, ma globala linguo= , ma la procedo esas sama!).




<= br>




=
--_000_DB5PR03MB13978533B1ED7499335304DAAA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- --_004_DB5PR03MB13978533B1ED7499335304DAAA4720DB5PR03MB1397eurp_-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4974 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 17436 invoked by uid 102); 23 Jan 2017 20:09:38 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m10.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Jan 2017 20:09:38 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 32219 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2017 20:09:38 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.170.167) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 23 Jan 2017 20:09:38 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: FjhSjQ0WLDtIw.zIHrjbwc6_mwENz03pq3vG4UxDoT9hpeb4 zNefNvbllfSCzmtxZmgHETf30mRPOtJzI7fCxfZnRXKKZ4HphlVwGdxlPnpX Sbv1Gsv2zVjcLj21X2qPapO47Kc3xCu.r5xf2_VUI5eaA4.VdkS_otYod4yB lbwBwwlXr2BjK9gD1wVhm4dm59volOUJcX_cOA2Of2i4LmPlSnZeaxiCkDvg 7EnsnLv5kpiHDfYgkhupttS9xhpNI5irIhJRWtuqijtRPnK0RtHgUvGjIY50 pl3ofEUDlmothG9XZjmeJzgmujAXTlQ6A8oFylexKzp0p1_yqFim8FYAmDQB Ltln.Nplev0DJj5t23pq.gx82WsrVZbmTsgQDABS.u8PSHurfuqkqP2xd7Vw 8O8tH59wkG80itpbO2VndtNB1gubzZH0qysE_3Dbvl5wWD_uiMNSi0t36nxz iEIMTlB.m5Ni0_cNHzKH_Sf4QW0VXXJpo8E1SicrOQtm5TPF8EX8O1X2JTDc ZHuNlrEFKmbT_tSBgzj1AbnVnAx2xSUBWt2SCSeTM0Iji02Ni_II3LzsPh1Z EBNrDeBSyw3J2b5WHn8Zp1V789dfNvnMJ82TPCG4crEbMmFfJVyTaVoT1r8z hnX.MYKG_zMgNUggXj1aCvIcVUS7jl97qH28vF2Hwnk5.bRcE8WVMToCdROc CJyT2c8CGkfVRf9J.pDJ_8toCvsbk6sNQfB0CUwupz0YdP_P0W0bCcag.lND LXTn1Y1tuhUwATfl77v4Yu7CptutaKtlntFDGr8.UEqaL5t.8CsPKUTxIoyf dRM4KvyhNO1r6NxK_IaOLBQW8R5wbe9k6uYkBrGxhnfOluFCn66RepXZyBlt 3Pud.N.NsUIhDMH9uDFRukClKUsjWx_kvwoZMAs76Qj76y6XzIsxZ6VsM5dO SNsVEhw8ACyFGGUspnRyaWA2rVMNopfYlvGVbHZiwhxZIY_o6CcELfRB3x9M uNkIF1HNIw_KQhbj.HNwYYIJY3lFKz6SpkiENiDGt.x3v7CVSwn3KXgimBmF 1U1B.R5tjW9EKGXR4jtU5H_SbrKIPakDIn9ZLOmLOOLbX3Spv5mqlQ4FyE7v YM3O.Cpardb6HFZcxdEKytr9RleCMz_JF4BK2nmJOE4PaIV1Cz_F7UyqJjUj P6SjKlhRVCd3I.FIDtrA3Uulhgdf_2fJ9U7FB4Dg7TlGvx43ZXIAoriNxsL6 xeMnMNKh4ZAJpNg4jgmxeqb8hymhserbZIhL7e6ATw.67F5scfx1kRPv4PFy BBCIlwAwbM.3dCYOhWprAGZUxLYBqKbEMKQZ5kulWgG2WnrPXRm_oTIC81Tx pznhUiqHPNMQud7e0zAMxWujvurE5oi87WjIGS_4almbuyKUuYxjdjSzQw2K 8mJ6WCAIHe.f5ZrrHCXO0dLqOWaBJsXzaEj3geQVZlvSF5jdLr676RomtL7s 67m8KIzKAVbaAnBDTZqiGNZehi8u6RzoiTFtKVU9AN.y1_T2OBj9m4AoJ3pc H1WFQXfC7c4joV_JtimneaXx2JEhN4z12MldJfIjfUty8a_l.ZdApHNc0FG3 AstsNXA53iWGkgDigd_kVnKmYjJJHLHkIGI7 Authentication-Results: mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f43.google.com) (74.125.82.43) by mta1003.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 20:09:38 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f43.google.com with SMTP id c206so174643636wme.0 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 12:09:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=3Ab1Sew5u/TmoCblVS+/fRG9dXNmt5lFr6biK8oavbg=; b=FZ6E26EQvJEU8LvsM0/nqyUpGyf7Ql6IFksxJHrCidK+VXUaNQ7cUUNIaVU+yIOe4I Bespp8sH4cujBA4N/gfvU09eqC6AadCCFgK7Kv1yWJUF9Z0zt3oyyTTbxt73RCroHUP2 0+i6ete4Wji7DJSnsQ2Xcfm7ps7lb2zqEfS3749sCeWgr//IGrGZABmsa2dj6WC7xw0P usdlVVVpIkouDrJhqiM+j/yLhToNd74kRv6Sj6m8MB/i8X83a3g4JLhnnHD+23ynOxGX EZHl71nkQNJJHHr3BbLhCal9M4SWuktqxzqiWDqoWbelCu9mu0vg0x4Q1DE4zHVueXnp xDCw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJtjpB8HjQBN96kWJIOwclquqKlKPxdQkNJ8Q682JbncM425klvKwKMP/mE6RvJNODv7WyrH9vsStr9jQ== X-Received: by 10.223.139.93 with SMTP id v29mr24200945wra.5.1485202177632; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Mon, 23 Jan 2017 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 15:09:37 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045eadda37b2490546c8947e Subject: Re: [linguo] A bit, byte X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045eadda37b2490546c8947e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =C2=ABbyte=C2=BB esas unajo qua ne esas en la metrala sistemo. Sequez la ko= nsilo di la *Kompleta Gramatiko* ed uzez =C2=ABbyte=C2=BB, sen modifiko. Me= m la Hispana e la Italiana uzas =C2=ABbyte=C2=BB, malgre ke, en ta lingui, = la litero =C2=ABy=C2=BB esas tote stranjera kom vokalo, segun quon me savas= . (En la Hispana, =C2=ABy=C2=BB esas sive konsonanto, sive mivokalo. La nu= ra ecepto esas la vorto =C2=ABy=C2=BB ipsa.) https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki= /Byte https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte Lu esas vorto teknikala, do ni ne= bezonas debatar pri tala vorti. Simile me refuzas la vorto =C2=ABbito=C2= =BB, qua ja havas senco navala en Ido, e qua esas vorto teknikala *komputer= ala tote ne bezonata en nia linguo. On parolez pri *bits* e pri *bytes*, se= n plusa detalo. Irgakaze, irga homo qua bezonas savar, quo esas *bit* e *by= te*, ma qua ne savas lo, devas lernar la vorti Angla por ne esar =C2=ABkomp= uterale iliterata=C2=BB... Gilles-Philippe On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 4:24 A= M, James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [linguolisto] wrote: > > > Kara Gilles-Philippe > > > Danko pro vua respondo. To n= e vere esis mea questiono, ma semblas ke vu > deskovris enigmato. Oportas = klarigar la senco di bit.o > > > La vorto quan me bezonas tradukar esas "by= te". > > > JC > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* linguolisto@ya= hoogroups.com on > behalf of Gilles-Philippe = Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> > *= Sent:* 22 January 2017 15:44 > *To:* Linguolisto > *Subject:* Re: [linguo] = A bit, byte > > > > Ka =C2=ABbito=C2=BB esas oficale dusenca? En Dyer, lu e= sas vorto navala. Regretinde, > la Lexiko semblas ignoris ta fakto... > > = > --f403045eadda37b2490546c8947e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=ABbyte=C2=BB esas unajo qua ne esas en la metrala sist= emo. Sequez la konsilo di la Kompleta Gramatiko=C2=A0ed uzez =C2=ABb= yte=C2=BB, sen modifiko.
Mem la Hispana e la Italiana uzas =C2=ABbyte= =C2=BB, malgre ke, en ta lingui, la litero =C2=ABy=C2=BB esas tote stranjer= a kom vokalo, segun quon me savas.

(En la Hispana,= =C2=ABy=C2=BB esas sive konsonanto, sive mivokalo. La nura ecepto esas la = vorto =C2=ABy=C2=BB ipsa.)

https://it.wikipedia.org/w= iki/Byte

Lu esas vorto=C2=A0teknikala, do = ni ne bezonas debatar pri tala vorti.

Simile me re= fuzas la vorto =C2=ABbito=C2=BB, qua ja havas senco navala en Ido, e qua es= as vorto teknikala *komputerala tote ne bezonata en nia linguo. On parolez = pri bits=C2=A0e pri bytes, sen plusa detalo. Irgakaze, irga h= omo qua bezonas savar, quo esas bit e byte, ma qua ne savas l= o, devas lernar la vorti Angla por ne esar =C2=ABkomputerale iliterata=C2= =BB...

Gilles-Philippe

On Mon, Jan 23, 2017 at 4:24 AM, = James Chandler idojc@hotmail.com [= linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<= br>
=C2=A0
<= p>

Kara Gilles-Philippe


Danko pro vua respo= ndo.=C2=A0 To ne vere esis mea questiono, ma semblas ke vu deskovris enigma= to.=C2=A0 Oportas klarigar la senco di bit.o


La vorto q= uan me bezonas tradukar esas "byte".


JC

<= br>
From: linguolisto@yahoo= groups.com <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Gilles-Philippe M= orin gphmorin@gmail= .com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 Ja= nuary 2017 15:44
To: Linguolisto
Subject: Re: [linguo= ] A bit, byte
=C2=A0

Ka =C2=ABbito=C2=BB esas oficale dusenca? En Dyer, lu e= sas vorto navala. Regretinde, la Lexiko semblas ignoris ta fakto...

=

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Kara samideani,
Voluntez explikar a me, pro quo Dyer k= ontenas la vorti stranjera sequanta?

=C2=ABargus= =C2=BB
=C2=ABdahlia=C2=BB
=C2=ABdjin=C2=BB
= =C2=ABdollar=C2=BB
=C2=ABfacies=C2=BB
=C2=ABgeisha=C2= =BB
=C2=ABgeyser=C2=BB
=C2=ABghetto=C2=BB
=C2= =ABinch=C2=BB
=C2=ABiota=C2=BB
=C2=ABkimono=C2=BB
=
=C2=ABkonfetti=C2=BB
=C2=ABkumis=C2=BB
=C2=ABlanda= u=C2=BB
=C2=ABmackfarlane=C2=BB
=C2=ABmackintosh=C2=BB<= /div>
=C2=ABmark=C2=BB
=C2=ABnirvana=C2=BB
=C2=ABod= eon=C2=BB
=C2=ABparia=C2=BB
=C2=ABpfund=C2=BB
=C2=ABplankton=C2=BB
=C2=ABpound=C2=BB
=C2=ABpuding=C2= =BB
=C2=ABrictus=C2=BB
=C2=ABrupie=C2=BB
=C2= =ABsandwich=C2=BB
=C2=ABselfmademan=C2=BB
=C2=ABsenna= =C2=BB
=C2=ABshirting=C2=BB
=C2=ABskat=C2=BB
= =C2=ABsquatter=C2=BB
=C2=ABtabu=C2=BB
=C2=ABtolle=C2=BB=
=C2=ABtonneau=C2=BB
=C2=ABtundra=C2=BB
=C2= =ABvendetta=C2=BB
=C2=ABvilla=C2=BB
=C2=ABwampum=C2=BB<= /div>

(To esas nekompleta listo, nam la altra vorti ne i= nteresas me prezente.)

Tamen, maxim grave: pro quo= on decidis asimilar uli ek ta vorti (dalio, dolaro, kimono, konfeti, plank= tono, sandwich, tabuo, tundro)?

Kun kordiala salut= i,
Gilles-Philippe
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Tue, 24 Jan 2017 14:33:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Jan 2017 14:33:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 17:33:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045eaddaffefe90546deb20f Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrY2VydGVuYcK7LCDCq3VsYcK7?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --f403045eaddaffefe90546deb20f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me pluse lektis pri =C2=ABiu=C2=BB e =C2=ABcerta=C2=BB en Esperanto. iu: n= edifiniteco (nedefiniteso) http://vortaro.net/#iu certa: =C2=ABtute difini= ta en la penso de la parolanto, kiu tamen ne sentas la bezonon pli precizig= i=C2=BB (tote definita en la penso di la parolanto, qua tamen ne sentas la = bezono plu precizigar=C2=BB http://vortaro.net/#certa Gon=C3=A7alo, to sem= blas konkordar kun tua defini di =C2=ABula=C2=BB (iu) e di =C2=ABcertena=C2= =BB (certa). Tamen, me pluse lektis, tafoye en la Angla: *certain* *adjec= tive* 1. Able to be firmly relied on to happen or be the case: *=E2=80= =98it's certain that more changes are in the offing=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98she l= ooks certain to win an Oscar=E2=80=99* 1. Having or showing complete = conviction about something: *=E2=80=98are you absolutely certain abou= t this?=E2=80=99* 2. *[attributive]* Specific but not explicitly name= d or stated: *=E2=80=98he raised certain personal problems with me=E2=80= =99* *=E2=80=98the exercise was causing him a certain amount of pain=E2= =80=99* 1. Used when mentioning the name of someone not known to the rea= der or hearer: *=E2=80=98a certain General Percy captured the t= own=E2=80=99* https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/certain Do, ye= n to esis... la *quar* nura senci dil adjektivo =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB en la A= ngla. Nu, on povas facile trovar qua vorto en Ido equivalas singla senco: = 1 certa (kozo) 1.1 certa (homo) 2 =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB segun Gon=C3=A7alo (p= reciza ma tacata) 2.1 =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB segun Gon=C3=A7alo (preciza ma ta= cata) Esas do nula, *nula* senco disponebla por la vorto =C2=ABula=C2=BB, = ka ne? Or, yen la defino di =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB segun Dyer: *certain:* ce= rta, infalibla; *to be c. of:* esar certa pri; *c. day:* ula dio; *in a c. = place:* ul-loke; *to make c. of something:* cert-igar (ulo); *become c.:* c= ert-eskar; *his ruin is c.:* lua ruino esas infalibla. Ho ve! Quo eventas?= ! =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB povas havar nul = altra senco kam *certain 2*. Or Dyer dicas, ke on uzez =C2=ABula=C2=BB! Ri= dinde, la Wikivortaro kontenas amba vorti: =C2=ABula=C2=BB por =C2=ABcertai= n day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB, ma =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB por la= cetero! https://io.wiktionary.org/wiki/certain Ka =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB = e =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB esas ecepti? Nu, la nura expliko quan me = povas trovar esas: =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB esas sinonimo di =C2=ABula=C2=BB, od= adminime sinonimo di *ula senci* di =C2=ABula=C2=BB, to esas, kande =C2=AB= ula=C2=BB reprezentas *ulo preciza ma tacata*. Ula exempli en Ido-English = konfirmas to: *ula dio en la lasta monato:* one day (=3D a certain day, but= date not specified); *ula viro decensis de Ierusalem a Ierico:* a certain = man (name not specified) went down from Jerusalem to Jericho Konseque, yen= itere mea questiono di ante tri dii: *Kad on chanjis la defino di la vorto= =C2=ABula=C2=BB?* Altravorte, ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB nun equivalas la vorto = =C2=ABiu=C2=BB di Esperanto? Ube esas la oficala informo pri ta tre, tre gr= ava chanjo? Gilles-Philippe On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Gilles-Phili= ppe Morin wrote: > Kara Eberhard, > La dicionario ne = plus funcionas: http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dyer_ > dictionary_web/ > > Esp= ereble, Konstantin Yegupov reparos lu. > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Ph= ilippe > > 2017-01-22 16:58 GMT-05:00 Eberhard Scholz eberhard.scholz@idoli= nguo.de > [linguolisto] : > >> >> >> Kar amiki= >> per grand intereso me lektas preske multa mesaji en ica forumo. >> Me p= rizas la voloraza komenti dil experti. >> Tamen, ka la direciono es justa= ? NI ya bezonas regardo vers lo necesa. >> Yen mesajo ek la Facebook , for= umo "Ido". >> Javier Vega Bravo >> >> >> >> *questionas* >> >> Me havas problemo en trovar= vortaro pri nova ("technologies") Ube esas >> ico vortaro en reto questio= nas >> >> >> >> > > --f403045eaddaffefe90546deb20f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me pluse lektis pri =C2=ABiu=C2=BB e =C2=ABcerta=C2=BB en = Esperanto.

iu: nedifiniteco (nedefiniteso)

certa:=C2=A0=C2=ABtute difinita en la penso de la parolanto, kiu t= amen ne sentas la bezonon pli precizigi=C2=BB (tote definita en la penso di= la parolanto, qua tamen ne sentas la bezono plu precizigar=C2=BB
http://vortaro.net/#certa

Gon=C3=A7alo, to semblas konkordar kun tua defini di= =C2=ABula=C2=BB (iu) e di =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB (certa).

Tamen, me pluse lektis, tafoye en la Angla:

= certain
adjective
  1. Able to be firm= ly relied on to happen or be the case:
    =E2=80=98it's certain that= more changes are in the offing=E2=80=99
    =E2=80=98she looks certain to w= in an Oscar=E2=80=99
    1. Having or showing complete convict= ion about something:
      =E2=80=98are you absolutely certain about this?= =E2=80=99
  2. [attributive] Specific but not explic= itly named or stated:
    =E2=80=98he raised certain personal problems wi= th me=E2=80=99
    =E2=80=98the exercise was causing him a certain am= ount of pain=E2=80=99
    1. Used when mentioning the name of = someone not known to the reader or hearer:
      =E2=80=98a certain General= Percy captured the town=E2=80=99

Do, yen= to esis... la quar nura senci dil adjektivo =C2=ABcertain=C2=BB en = la Angla.

Nu, on povas facile trovar qua vorto en = Ido equivalas singla senco:
1 certa (kozo)
1.1 certa (homo)
2 =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB segun Gon=C3=A7alo (preciza ma tacata)
2.1= =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB segun Gon=C3=A7alo (preciza ma tacata)

<= /div>
Esas do nula, nula=C2=A0senco disponebla por la vorto =C2= =ABula=C2=BB, ka ne?

Or, yen la defino di =C2=ABce= rtain=C2=BB segun Dyer:

certain: certa= , infalibla; to be c. of: esar certa pri; c. day: ula dio; in a c. place: ul-loke; to make = c. of something: cert-igar (ulo); become c.: cert-eskar; his = ruin is c.: lua ruino esas infalibla.

Ho= ve! Quo eventas?! =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a certain place=C2=BB= povas havar nul altra senco kam certain 2. Or Dyer dicas, ke on uze= z =C2=ABula=C2=BB!

Ridinde, la Wikivortaro kontena= s amba vorti: =C2=ABula=C2=BB por =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a cert= ain place=C2=BB, ma =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB por la cetero!
Ka =C2=ABcertain day=C2=BB e =C2=ABin a certain plac= e=C2=BB esas ecepti?

Nu, la nura expliko quan me p= ovas trovar esas: =C2=ABcertena=C2=BB esas sinonimo di =C2=ABula=C2=BB, od = adminime sinonimo di ula senci=C2=A0di =C2=ABula=C2=BB, to esas, kan= de =C2=ABula=C2=BB reprezentas ulo preciza ma tacata.

=
Ula exempli en Ido-English konfirmas to:
ula dio en= la lasta monato:=C2=A0one day (=3D a certain day, but date not specifi= ed);
ula viro decensis de Ierusalem a Ierico:=C2=A0a certa= in man (name not specified) went down from Jerusalem to Jericho
<= br>
Konseque, yen itere mea questiono di ante tri dii:
= Kad on chanjis la defino di la vorto =C2=ABula=C2=BB?
<= br>
Altravorte, ka =C2=ABula=C2=BB nun equivalas la vorto =C2= =ABiu=C2=BB di Esperanto?
Ube esas la oficala informo pri ta tre,= tre grava chanjo?

Gilles-Philippe

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 = at 5:23 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrot= e:
Kara Eberhard,
La= dicionario ne plus funcionas:=C2=A0http://www.kyegupov.org/ido/dy= er_dictionary_web/

Espereble, Konstantin = Yegupov reparos lu.

Kun kordiala saluti,
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-22 16:58 GMT-05:= 00 Eberhard Scholz eberhard.scholz@idolinguo.de [linguolisto] <ling= uolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Kar amiki
per grand int= ereso me lektas preske multa mesaji en ica forumo.
Me prizas la vol= oraza komenti dil experti.
Tamen, ka la=C2=A0 direciono=C2=A0 es ju= sta ? NI ya bezonas regardo vers lo necesa.
Yen mesajo ek la Fa= cebook , forumo "Ido".

Javier Vega Bravo
questionas
=

Me havas problemo en trovar vortaro pr= i nova ("technologies") Ube esas ico vortaro en reto=C2= =A0 questionas




=

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Kad on facas=C2=A0ago?

Segun mea= kompreno, on agas=C2=A0ago, nam ago havas nul objekto extera. Tamen= ,=C2=A0on lektas =C2=ABme facas nula ago=C2=BB en Progreso, VI, 482.=
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En la dicionario Internatio= nal-English (1908): =C2=ABflorino=C2=BB esis =C2=ABfloreno=C2=BB (pro =C2= =ABfloro=C2=BB), p. 57 =C2=ABlupino=C2=BB esis =C2=ABlupeno=C2=BB (pro =C2= =ABlupo=C2=BB =3D volfo), p. 113 =C2=ABmuslo=C2=BB e =C2=ABmuslino=C2=BB, p= . 130 Ta sis vorti demontras: 1. La tradiciono di Zamenhof kelke sequa= ta (floreno, lupeno); 2. La ignoro di konflikto (muslo, muslino); 3. = La ignoro *incencita* di konflikto (floreno divenis florino). Me trovis la= vorti sequanta, qui finas per stranja *-eno*: =C2=ABbaseno=C2=BB pro =C2= =ABbas-ino=C2=BB, qua sequas la pronunco Rusa (*bas=C3=AAyn*) ed Esperanto;= =C2=ABgalanteno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABgalant-ino=C2=BB, qua sequas nula pronunco= DEFIRS; =C2=ABkurteno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABkurt-ino=C2=BB, qua sequas nula pron= unco DEFIRS ecepte, forsan, la Angla, ma qua trovesas en la *Fundamento*; = =C2=ABmandareno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABmandarino=C2=BB; =C2=ABorgeno=C2=BB pro =C2= =ABorgano=C2=BB =C2=ABquatreno=C2=BB ??? =C2=ABrateno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABrat-i= no=C2=BB, qua sequas la espelo Angla. =C2=ABspleno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABsplino= =C2=BB, qua sequas la espelo Angla. Pro ta misterio, me serchis en *Progre= so*. Me skribis pri la rezultajo di mea sercho en nova artiklo: https://web= .archive.org/web/20170125014633/https://bovino-lakto.rhcloud.com/heroino-2/= L'artikli en *Progreso* postuligas da me ke: - On evaluez serioze la = vera risko di =C2=ABrara miskompreno=C2=BB; - On ignorez la argumento = =C2=ABserchar future pri texti qui mencionas heriono o heroini, ma ne he= roeno, od inverse=C2=BB. Gilles-Philippe 2017-01-21 22:53 GMT-05:00 Gille= s-Philippe Morin : > Pri =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABpla= do=C2=BB, me forsan exajeris. Tamen, me ya memoras lektir pri > certena kri= tiko: > > Nek en Ido, nek en Esperanto, ma en la Angla, me trovis kritiko d= etaloza > en qua la autoro mencionas =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB = kom =C2=ABdeformita en neevidenta > manieri=C2=BB: http://miresperanto.com/= konkurentoj/not_my_favourite.htm > > Me anke kredis, ke Jespersen mencionis= kritiki pri =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB en la *International-Eng= lish > Dictionary*, ma fakte lu nur deskriptis la decido. Mea memorado do >= faliis... > > 2017-01-21 7:11 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.= com [linguolisto] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> La exempli q= uin tu prizentis (a qui on povus adjuntar *muslino* e mem >> *florino*) sen= dubite pruvas ke la heroinala homonimeso-timo esas >> exajerata e senfundam= enta, e ke **heroino* esas klare preferinda. Nu, la >> "problemo" esas faci= le remediebla, nam, segun semblo, **heroeno* ne ja >> oficaleskis. >> >> Pr= o quo tu dicas ke *pordo* e *plado* esas =C2=ABtre kritikita=C2=BB? Me ne >= > memoras lektir irga kritiko kontre tala formi, sive en Espo, sive en Ido.= .. >> >> *pasero* restez! Ica vorto apene esas konfliktiva. Ordinare on ya = >> parolas pri pasanti (homi quin on vidas pasar en la nuna instanto), ne p= ri >> pas-eri (homi qui kustumale pasas)... >> >> >> 2017-01-20 23:54 GMT+0= 0:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Nu, til nun Esperantujo uzas =C2=ABheroin= o=C2=BB, mem se lu teorie konfliktas kun >>> =C2=ABhero'ino=C2=BB. >>> >>> = Vorti tal quala =C2=ABkarabino=C2=BB, =C2=ABrosmarino=C2=BB =C2=ABserpentin= o=C2=BB, e =C2=ABproteino=C2=BB ofras >>> simila homonimeso... >>> >>> Tame= n ni konsiderez la risko di konflikti. Me ipsa nultempe experiencis >>> kon= flikto inter la Franca =C2=ABh=C3=A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (homino) e =C2=ABh=C3= =A9ro=C3=AFne=C2=BB (drogo). >>> >>> Me probas trovar kazi di konflikto... = >>> >>> *orhara heroino di nordala legendi* >>> *la quaza armeo regnis la f= rontierala zono ... ed uzis lu anke por >>> exportacar kokaino e heroino a = Usa* >>> (http://www.reta-vortaro.de/revo/) >>> >>> Ka, pro tala pavoro pri= konflikti e homonimi, on devas necese deformar >>> un plusa vorto, *heroen= o, quale la tre kritikita =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB? >>> >>> Ka= d on anke devas reformar nia linguo, e remplasigar la vorto =C2=ABpasero=C2= =BB, >>> qua adoptesis ante la sufixo -er-? >>> >>> Me opinionas ke no. >>>= >> >>> >> >> > > --001a11444f829bb67a0546e17fa8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me trovis vorti interesanta en ula dicionarii.
En la dicionario International-English (1908):
=C2= =ABflorino=C2=BB esis =C2=ABfloreno=C2=BB (pro =C2=ABfloro=C2=BB), p. 57
=C2=ABlupino=C2=BB esis =C2=ABlupeno=C2=BB (pro =C2=ABlupo=C2=BB =3D = volfo), p. 113
=C2=ABmuslo=C2=BB e =C2=ABmuslino=C2=BB, p. 130

Ta sis vorti demontras:
  1. La tradici= ono di Zamenhof kelke sequata (floreno, lupeno);
  2. La ignoro di konfl= ikto (muslo, muslino);
  3. La ignoro incencita=C2=A0di konflikto= (floreno divenis florino).
Me trovis la vorti sequanta= , qui finas per stranja -eno:
=C2=ABbaseno=C2=BB pro =C2= =ABbas-ino=C2=BB, qua sequas la pronunco Rusa (bas=C3=AAyn) ed Esper= anto;
=C2=ABgalanteno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABgalant-ino=C2=BB, qua sequa= s nula pronunco DEFIRS;
=C2=ABkurteno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABkurt-ino=C2= =BB, qua sequas nula pronunco DEFIRS ecepte, forsan, la Angla, ma qua trove= sas en la Fundamento;
=C2=ABmandareno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABmand= arino=C2=BB;
=C2=ABorgeno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABorgano=C2=BB
= =C2=ABquatreno=C2=BB ???
=C2=ABrateno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABrat-ino=C2= =BB, qua sequas la espelo Angla.
=C2=ABspleno=C2=BB pro =C2=ABspl= ino=C2=BB, qua sequas la espelo Angla.

Pro ta misterio, me serchis en Progreso. Me skribis pri la rezultaj= o di mea sercho en nova artiklo:

L'artikli en Progreso= =C2=A0postuligas da me ke:
  • On evaluez serioze la vera ris= ko di =C2=ABrara miskompreno=C2=BB;
  • On ignorez la argumento =C2=ABs= erchar future pri texti qui mencionas heriono o heroini, ma ne heroeno, od = inverse=C2=BB.
Gilles-Philippe

2017-01-21 22:53 GMT-05:00 Gil= les-Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com>:
Pri =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB,= me forsan exajeris. Tamen, me ya memoras lektir pri certena kritiko:
<= br>
Nek en Ido, nek en Esperanto, ma en la Angla, me trovis kriti= ko detaloza en qua la autoro mencionas =C2=ABpordo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2= =BB kom =C2=ABdeformita en neevidenta manieri=C2=BB:=C2=A0http:= //miresperanto.com/konkurentoj/not_my_favourite.htm

Me anke kredis, ke Jespersen mencionis kritiki pri =C2=ABpo= rdo=C2=BB e =C2=ABplado=C2=BB en la International-English Dictionary= , ma fakte lu nur deskriptis la decido. Mea memorado do faliis...

2017-01-21 7:11 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [= linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

La exempli quin tu prizentis = (a qui on povus adjuntar muslino e mem florino) sendubite pru= vas ke la heroinala homonimeso-timo esas exajerata e senfundamenta, e ke *heroino esas klare preferinda. Nu, la "problemo" esas facil= e remediebla, nam, segun semblo, *heroeno ne ja oficaleskis.

=
Pro quo tu dicas ke <= b>pordo e plado esas =C2=ABtre kritikita=C2=BB? Me ne memoras le= ktir irga kritiko kontre tala formi, sive en Espo, sive en Ido...

pasero restez! I= ca vorto apene esas konfliktiva. Ordinare on ya parolas pri pasanti (homi q= uin on vidas pasar en la nuna instanto), ne pri pas-eri (homi qui kustumale= pasas)...


2017-01-20 23:54 GMT+00:00 Gille= s-Philippe Morin gp= hmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com<= /a>>:
= =C2=A0
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=
=

<= /div>
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Ka la uzo sequanta di =C2=ABa=C2=BB esas gramatikale korek= ta?

=C2=ABPreparez tu a mokesar da multi.=C2=BB
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Kad esas ula motivo pro qua on adoptis =C2=ABbenedikar=C2= =BB (*bendikar en 1908) vice benedicar*?
--f403045d585ededcde0546efa7f4-- From DummyAddressAndDate Thu Sep 16 11:42:17 2010 X-Yahoo-Msgnum: 4982 Return-Path: X-Sender: gphmorin@gmail.com X-Apparently-To: linguolisto@yahoogroups.com X-Received: (qmail 28406 invoked by uid 102); 25 Jan 2017 20:11:59 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com) (10.193.84.33) by m13.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2017 20:11:59 -0000 X-Received: (qmail 15476 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2017 20:11:59 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com) (98.139.245.165) by mtaq2.grp.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 2017 20:11:59 -0000 X-Original-Return-Path: X-Received-SPF: pass (domain of gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) X-YMailISG: bLHwMFcWLDuJEzBxD99ETHMI9yzlxaXYAQJohaUMFGUzLHxT 6h0jwwNI6LhmxOJZ3QtmNpu47CJedOPbtNw8kiYsgmuqT3VBSd7.B2Lls2vJ B1Und8UmuWqNc2Iy77hAUT78TsIZ59tA0KNQp_UNMOq1NCXN94HNf2fZfqL3 C1MWzU3FwRl61zz17q0MpkqMMKDzoc.k5xiQ9k.u_2GwXOTuM07p8FzFQ8cq C__wc6p1MXKT2m4vMSZs.WroGxQpauudCvLS4C8GFASHUHBrdPOYMzQDOsZP zGtg2PPb_UM03h0KEMzXUx1Y3k4bfgSpAylx5jDkBmLAiooFqxVUlAvk47L3 .QhJ5ktA8y4_l6FfLAxgPo3WujRmxoVrk6.J.e_0k7N7Ail_3.9ohe02zWvN QrMgFmbbJ4QZKLm9bc7pIXh2wY4ZEObNRGl6uTn9CAzw0gcrlpF8oBTxroeG yzNJ8EV7UjBG3drRsvWFx0pgC0rIInQ1BxdyQemKbE2lmDF.WPkODzTdEM3i HpKIlB7bCiArxpm6CrbfOCNdUDAsc0Nn0bWnHgjXFZloPyAOCSQCCZw0.1_H nbcU9FHOaguCYguZq.7L_qetASSQEGQ82_QmbLhmhMo8tyR5RQuyyFl3DLkF .2TuiM_wxiIaZizUycYAQ4AoFtyFTJK3TIwQO4tDB6rSsWtSU1gAuhmO3L1C 5xgCYMFq3lIhkFY9BHKk2z0sBI7HNQRv_CRyvueENceGYPT7VoCRjGJqLh8s c3WdfYjm.ml9o9TT4dWFotiirCHsGiGE8hs5buOIPxu3xwargpw.xzBOhX7Q rIlW4OO8Sbyn6E1NPOklq9twrawexGA1.b2oB3yzZHRSMFa7cdHPCKlDavvX cQr9ywWNzMT9KGEwpoh_XOjDLA4QgvTBiMoRWNkoiybHOwU6J.2ScrEjouyP FJJdgCFfvi.IJreTdwF2wkWnmYbwCEJmqJXO1E6YF8C3JUUBViuS7.cNysQA S.jA8KgXMzEqb.SrEw5HuKnLroRHOJ67.f4AGiWlCg1cqIMYn78a7QpZ0f.E nOF8hJdqB4tn_2iVP2jUuE3TkCK5.RnFSCwEwj00Vq4li_J4PHC9SckwbPlV ibt2TDbaupl4Isu5yY9YsKddQO_IInUKhQG6Md40ps7QIGmIr7WZbOEyOTb0 q16uwAULEaKZIdMXUtuWUrCuchtBUEyQ5W48fWlY1BKtaMdeoNLFtpo7OP8S utbW0Y1nx6bvv2tZy8K10FeIuq.KTSvWGXW17F5eBDqmBbRJbQBOO7fts5yn AG2.6BrdlZEOIGayCZ3jCS7AwNkQwy9UvJgGKVbYC7JWY_5ELGG2bqtfoGVE RvB.fLyVtsHzqAOPVRQdzLiS11pl67rJ7l0kOIIVhUPTq6byFL2_wnKnLue6 jHjPA7HND_8tJAxaI6NmnJHxmpqJGgFpf0k5LNJxYhix2aOA2N6BALd9d0.z nuAt5v8wExk3iCrVaCtBnl2DrttPSzBcYhs14Xkpkrw9eqFp0q4cSZGmoitp zXriD.xJbuHr3Z2Kg6bPxWkRDWxpOjmCtRj.uqOa Authentication-Results: mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com from=gmail.com; domainkeys=neutral (no sig); from=gmail.com; dkim=pass (ok) X-Received: from 127.0.0.1 (EHLO mail-wm0-f54.google.com) (74.125.82.54) by mta1006.groups.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTPS; Wed, 25 Jan 2017 20:11:58 +0000 X-Received: by mail-wm0-f54.google.com with SMTP id c206so50381982wme.0 for ; Wed, 25 Jan 2017 12:11:58 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=SFdvOdFAGcQf8jPQUYuQgENf9Zjf2le4Eo4o6ksxhrQ=; b=KlaGQnCV6IrmI7PCAqKypP5L/8vYv2GQhxpl91OuEeLHqchsZY8FpHl289zs36FakJ JYXVrH+GHlVdVVO1rYhkXdxzp03UBqBZfUvvrwRsjOTshPEDmgNiMCWioOvGwI+cS1kH 9Q/rUmEwhmc3+XDoLMXZXVcVf3OJ72k7sUamM+wx/K8voiyTHcEsuweyW4L0osdzKfDP 5USzhfEe6v8d8/r2fE2ve4u7e/50+4DmmMgHzVH79zZ7ZrjwRS83e6xB44sPT+2hN7wz ssXsb7e74MAzk5eXXkPrWejC7WBR9MVNd9YWtY2BCFM0WTRAaGAOP6ahVKDjvMwJdVKI C0Gw== X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXJ9NUrEH2cGNSx3OS1DIb+wu+ACiTCGU5vXHODnwSL/w1gR8pL6EmkRZd/UUBlfDDH71ptWOUkNa+A23g== X-Received: by 10.28.178.142 with SMTP id b136mr25179224wmf.69.1485375117758; Wed, 25 Jan 2017 12:11:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.154.231 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Jan 2017 12:11:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 15:11:57 -0500 Message-ID: To: Linguolisto Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144403a40975b0546f0d850 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFtsaW5ndW9dIMKrcmlkaWt1bGHCuw==?= X-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=579497189 From: Gilles-Philippe Morin --001a1144403a40975b0546f0d850 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ha! Me nun komprenas pro quo on adoptis =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB. Me trovis to= en la Raporto da Roze: *ridikul-a* (=C2=ABLa Akad.=C2=BB No. 5, p. 2): D = l=C3=A4cherlich, E ridiculous, laughable, F ridicule. La tilnuna =C2=ABridi= nda=C2=BB vere es =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB pro sua nelogikeso [sic!], nam *-ind= -* signifikas D w=C3=BCrdig, wert, E worrthy of, F digne =C3=AAtre. (Me ne = komprenas la vorto =C2=ABnelogikeso=C2=BB... Forsan =C2=ABnelogikaleso=C2= =BB?) http://interlanguages.net/roze.html Nu, quale =C2=ABridinda=C2=BB p= ovas esar nelogikala pro *-ind-*? Me analizis la sufixo e tandem komprenis!= Segun la *Kompleta Gramatiko*, la sufixo *-ind-* signifikas =C2=AB*qua me= ritas esar ...ata*=C2=BB. On povas do deduktar, ke *-ind-* povas uzesar nur= kun verbi transitiva. On ya povas lektar lo yena en la *Kompleta Gramatik= o*: =C2=ABRemarkez bone, ke *em*, *er*, *iv* (videz ica) havas senco aktiva= , ma *ebl*, *end*, *ind* senco pasiva. Do la tri lasta ne darfas aplikesar = a verbi netransitiva.=C2=BB En la Wikivortaro, on trovas la yena listo de = vorti finanta per *-ind-*: aminda (qua meritas esar amata) deplorinda (qua= meritas esar deplorata) desestiminda (qua meritas esar desestimata) deziri= nda (qua meritas esar dezirata) dubitinda (qua meritas esar dubitata) vidin= da (qua meritas esar vidata) admirinda (qua meritas esar admirata) abominin= da (qua meritas esar abominata) uzinda (qua meritas esar uzata) estiminda (= qua meritas esar estimata) konsiderinda (qua meritas esar konsiderata) memo= rinda (qua meritas esar memorata) fidinda (qua meritas esar fidata) kompati= nda (qua meritas esar kompatata) remarkinda (qua meritas esar remarkata) bl= aminda (qua meritas esar blamata) shaminda (qua meritas ???) ridinda (qua m= eritas ???) dankinda (qua meritas esar dankata) respektinda (qua meritas es= ar respektata) odiinda (qua meritas esar odiata) hororinda (qua meritas esa= r hororata) gratulinda (qua meritas esar gratulata) impedinda (qua meritas = esar impedata) honorinda (qua meritas ???) laudinda (qua meritas esar lauda= ta) lektinda (qua meritas esar lektata) aceptinda (qua meritas esar aceptat= a) lerninda (qua meritas esar lernata) reprimandinda (qua meritas esar repr= imandata) susteninda (qua meritas esar sustenata) paginda (qua meritas esar= pagata) pardoninda (qua meritas esar pardonata) veneracinda (qua meritas e= sar veneracata) piktinda (qua meritas esar piktata) suspektinda (qua merita= s esar suspektata) kondamninda (qua meritas esar kondamnata) reprezalinda (= qua meritas ???) sequinda (qua meritas esar sequata) regretinda (qua merita= s esar regretata) determininda (qua meritas esar determinata) savinda (qua = meritas esar savata) konocinda (qua meritas esar konocata) imitinda (qua me= ritas esar imitata) kredinda (qua meritas esar kredata) egardinda (qua meri= tas esar egardata) envidiinda (qua meritas esar envidiata) solvinda (qua me= ritas esar solvata) mokinda (qua meritas esar mokata) Nu, tanta erori! Qua= le on skribis en la *Raporto*, la nuna situeso vere esas ridikula... Yen l= a nuna erori en Wikivortaro (ed en nia linguo) quin ni devas korektigar: = - *ridinda* (nam *ridar* esas netransitiva) - *shaminda* (nam *shamar*= esas netransitiva) - *reprezalinda* (nam *reprezalar* esas netransitiva= ) - *honorinda* (nam *honorar*... ne existas.) Por *ridinda* ni ja hava= s *ridikula* e ni quik cesez uzar *ridinda*. Fakte, me propozas, ke on dekl= arez lu kom =C2=ABobsoleta=C2=BB en Wikivortaro. Por *honorinda*, me judika= s, ke *honorizinda* esus solvo apta. Por *reprezalinda*, lu semblas esar er= oro da ula uzero di Wikivortaro... me ne trovas lu en altra dicionarii. Fin= e por *shaminda* me havas nula ideo. On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 11:19 PM, Gil= les-Philippe Morin wrote: > Quala vi judikas ta defin= i? > > *ridikul-a: *(e *rid-ind-a:*) > [1] Qua esas di naturo produktanta r= ido, ecitanta moko. > [2] (per extenso di la senco) Tre mala, senimporte de= sestiminda. > [3] Sen komuna raciono. > [4] (per extenso di la senco) Senva= lora. > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Gilles-Philippe Morin > wrote: > >> Bone, danko! Me konsideras skribar defino di amba= vorti en Wikivortaro. >> >> On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo = Neves gneves64@gmail.com >> [linguolisto] wro= te: >> >>> >>> >>> Supozeble, yes. >>> >>> 2017-01-21 21:05 GMT+00:00 Gille= s-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bone, danko! Do ka =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB inkluz= as omna senci adjektivala di la >>>> Franca =C2=ABridicule=C2=BB? >>>> >>>>= http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/ridicule >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > --001a1144403a40975b0546f0d850 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ha! Me nun komprenas pro quo on adoptis =C2=ABridikula=C2= =BB.

Me trovis to en la Raporto da Roze:

<= /div>
ridikul-a (=C2=ABLa Akad.=C2=BB No. 5, p. 2): D l=C3= =A4cherlich, E ridiculous, laughable, F ridicule. La tilnuna =C2=ABridinda= =C2=BB vere es =C2=ABridikula=C2=BB pro sua nelogikeso [sic!], nam -ind-= signifikas D w=C3=BCrdig, wert, E worthy of, F digne =C3=AAtre.
<= div>
(Me ne komprenas la vorto =C2=ABnelogikeso=C2=BB... Fors= an =C2=ABnelogikaleso=C2=BB?)

Nu, quale =C2=ABridinda=C2=BB povas esar nelogi= kala pro -ind-? Me analizis la sufixo e tandem komprenis!
=
Segun la Kompleta Gramatiko, la sufixo -ind-= =C2=A0signifikas =C2=ABqua meritas esar ...ata=C2=BB. On povas do de= duktar, ke -ind-=C2=A0povas uzesar nur kun verbi transitiva.

On ya povas lektar lo yena en la Kompleta Gramatiko:
=C2=ABRemarkez bone, ke em, er, iv (videz= ica) havas senco aktiva, ma ebl, end, ind senco pasiv= a. Do la tri lasta ne darfa= s aplikesar a verbi netransitiva.=C2=BB

En = la Wikivortaro, on trovas la yena listo de vorti finanta per -ind-:<= /div>

aminda (qua meritas esar amata)
deplorin= da (qua meritas esar deplorata)
desestiminda (qua meritas esar de= sestimata)
dezirinda (qua meritas esar dezirata)
dubiti= nda (qua meritas esar dubitata)
vidinda (qua meritas esar vidata)=
admirinda (qua meritas esar admirata)
abomininda (qua = meritas esar abominata)
uzinda (qua meritas esar uzata)
estiminda (qua meritas esar estimata)
konsiderinda (qua meritas = esar konsiderata)
memorinda (qua meritas esar memorata)
fidinda (qua meritas esar fidata)
kompatinda (qua meritas esar k= ompatata)
remarkinda (qua meritas esar remarkata)
blami= nda (qua meritas esar blamata)
shaminda (qua meritas ???)
ridinda (qua meritas ???)
d= ankinda (qua meritas esar dankata)
respektinda (qua meritas esar = respektata)
odiinda (qua meritas esar odiata)
hororinda= (qua meritas esar hororata)
gratulinda (qua meritas esar gratula= ta)
impedinda (qua meritas esar impedata)
honorinda (qua meritas ???)
laudinda (qua meritas esar laudata)
lektinda (qua meritas = esar lektata)
aceptinda (qua meritas esar aceptata)
ler= ninda (qua meritas esar lernata)
reprimandinda (qua meritas esar = reprimandata)
susteninda (qua meritas esar sustenata)
p= aginda (qua meritas esar pagata)
pardoninda (qua meritas esar par= donata)
veneracinda (qua meritas esar veneracata)
pikti= nda (qua meritas esar piktata)
suspektinda (qua meritas esar susp= ektata)
kondamninda (qua meritas esar kondamnata)
reprezalinda (qua meritas ???)
sequinda (qua meritas esar sequata)
regretinda (q= ua meritas esar regretata)
determininda (qua meritas esar determi= nata)
savinda (qua meritas esar savata)
konocinda (qua = meritas esar konocata)
imitinda (qua meritas esar imitata)
<= div>kredinda (qua meritas esar kredata)
egardinda (qua meritas es= ar egardata)
envidiinda (qua meritas esar envidiata)
so= lvinda (qua meritas esar solvata)
mokinda (qua meritas esar mokat= a)

Nu, tanta erori! Quale on skribis en la Rapo= rto, la nuna situeso vere esas ridikula...

Yen= la nuna erori en Wikivortaro (ed en nia linguo) quin ni devas korektigar:<= /div>
  • ridinda (nam ridar=C2=A0esas netransitiva)<= /li>
  • shaminda (nam shamar=C2=A0esas netransitiva)
  • = reprezalinda (nam reprezalar=C2=A0esas netransitiva)
  • = honorinda (nam honorar... ne existas.)
Por r= idinda=C2=A0ni ja havas ridikula=C2=A0e ni quik cesez uzar ri= dinda. Fakte, me propozas, ke on deklarez lu kom =C2=ABobsoleta=C2=BB e= n Wikivortaro. Por honorinda, me judikas, ke honorizinda=C2= =A0esus solvo apta. Por reprezalinda, lu semblas esar eroro da ula u= zero di Wikivortaro... me ne trovas lu en altra dicionarii. Fine por sha= minda=C2=A0me havas nula ideo.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 11:19 PM, Gilles= -Philippe Morin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
Quala vi judikas ta defini?

ridikul-a: (e rid-ind-a:)
[1] Qua esas= di naturo produktanta rido, ecitanta moko.
[2] (per extenso di l= a senco) Tre mala, senimporte desestiminda.=C2=A0
[3] Sen komuna = raciono.
[4] (per extenso di la senco) Senvalora.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Gilles-Philippe M= orin <gphmorin@gmail.com> wrote:
Bone, danko! Me konsideras skribar defino di amba = vorti en Wikivortaro.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com = [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:=
=C2=A0

Supozeble, yes.

2017-01-21 21:05= GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@= yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=
=

Bone, danko! Do ka =C2=ABridikul= a=C2=BB inkluzas omna senci adjektivala di la Franca =C2=ABridicule=C2=BB?<= div>
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">






<= /td>
Ah, quale atik-ismo! Bone, to semblas esas justa!

D= o Couturat, en la Enkhiridion, skribis =C2=ABveneraji=C2=BB en la sama epok= o kam on skribis =C2=ABinfantajo=C2=BB e =C2=ABpuerajo=C2=BB (segun la C= omplete Manual), qui pose divenis =C2=ABinfantalajo=C2=BB e =C2=ABpuera= lajo=C2=BB. Do certe on nun skribez =C2=ABveneralaji=C2=BB!

<= div>Danko!

On = Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:47 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
<= span style=3D"display:none">=C2=A0

Me supozas ke vener/ala esas analoga a Homer/al= a, ma la relato di Homer/ala a H=C3=B3meros esas plu dire= ta ed evidenta kam olta di vener/ala a Venus/Veneris, e pro t= o on skribas vener/ala minuskule e Homer/ala mayuskule.
<= /span>


2017-01-21 20:40 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [li= nguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Bone. Forsan on kredis, ke la derivo esas evidenta? Danko pro la i= nformo!

On S= at, Jan 21, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
=
=C2=A0

Yes, on trovas vener-ala en omna vorto-libri, ma ne *v= ener/ar, qua nultempe adoptesis kom verbo.

2017-01-2= 1 19:14 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <lingu= olisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Yes nam, quale skribita, la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB= ja rezervesis por =C2=ABl'ago sexuala=C2=BB. On ya trovas =C2=ABvener-= ala=C2=BB en la Dictionnaire fran=C3=A7ais-international.=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 13:23 Gon=C3=A7alo N= eves gneves64@gmail= .com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



























=C2=A0



















Tamen on adoptis ne *venerar ma veneracar...


<= br class=3D"m_-1748334392073128745m_719033150660720926m_6690576413735547360= m_2831049433245743588m_-2971091284261006864gmail_msg">
2017-01-21 0:26 GMT+00:00 Gi= lles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com = [linguolisto] <= linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>= ;:





























=C2=A0


=















Progreso IV= , 103:

Venerar, reve= rar.
S= =C2=B0 O. Hugues propozas adoptar la du verbi: venerar=C2=A0(profunda respekto kun afeciono)= e reverar=C2=A0(= profunda respekto kun nuanco di timo). Konseque, on devus chanjar venerdio=C2=A0a venusdio, e adoptar veneriar=C2=A0por l= 9;ago sexuala (subst. venerio), de quo venus: veneriala=C2=A0plezuro, maladeso, e c. (N.B. veneracar, propozita III, 328, esis= jus adoptata: p. 69, decido 328).

To konfirmas= la existo di la verbo =C2=ABvenerar=C2=BB.
Nu, ad uli =C2=ABvenerdio=C2=BB ya signifikas= =C2=ABvener-dio=C2=BB!


=






=










=

















<= br>


2017-01-05 10:37 GMT-05:00 artomo@jippii.fi [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0

Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com = [linguolisto] kirjoitti
5.1.2017 15:56:
> Kara= James e kara Partaka,
> Danko pro la informo.
>
> Pe= r sercho, me ya trovis ta ok vorti en la yena pagino:
 > http://www.= ido.li/index.php/ULI/IR2011 [1]
>
>= ; To semblas konfirmar la oficaleso di "chao".
>
>= Arto, se tu lektas ca mesajo, voluntez aceptar mea exkuzo pro la
> = miskompreno en Wikivortaro. Me kredis, tote certe, ke "chao" esis=
> neoficala. Me eroris.
>
> 2017-01-05 8:24 GMT-05:0= 0 qualevistand= as@yahoo.es [linguolisto]
> <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
&= gt;
Me preske finis sequar omna revizi pri la oficaleso di la v= orti. Esus
tre simpla montrar neoficaleso di la vorti en Wikivortaro, = sen blinda
entuziasmo fanatika. - Arto

=
<= /blockquote>

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Me suspektas ke lore la formo "glucose= " ja existis, ma me ne memoras audir o lektir ta formo lore. Me supozas ke = nun, en universitati e ciencala medii en Portugal e Brazilia, on preferas l= a formo "glucose", forsan pro influo stranjera (precipue Angla-lingua), ma = to esas nura supozo, e me tote ne esas certa pri to. Me bone savas ke la Po= rtugalana ne apartenas al AFGHIR-klubo, e me mencionis ol ne por sustenar "= glikoso" en Ido, ma nur por expresar mea personala prefero en mea matrala l= inguo (en qua, exemple, on dicas "glicog=C3=A9nio" i.a.). Anke en Ido me pr= eferas "glikoso" pro kohero e "familiala integreso". Pri "nevroso" la kozo= esas plu komplikita e me havas teorio (o, plu modeste, explikiva hipotezo)= , ma me ankore mustas parlaborar e rafinar ol ante prizentar ol publike. Ta= men me ne savas ka me disipos mea tempo ed energio por parlaborar ol, lekti= nte certena desagreabla insinui en recenta (e ne nur recenta) artikli, kome= nti e reakti... 2017-01-05 14:07 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@= gmail.com [linguolisto] : > > > Gon=C3=A7alo,= > Se tu prizas kohero neinternaciona, me do povas komprenar tua vidpunto p= ri > "glikoso". > > La pagino pri glikoso en la Portugalana Wikipedio ya ko= nfirmas ke > "glicose" esas la maxim uzata espelo: > https://pt.wikipedia.o= rg/wiki/Glicose > > Tamen, quale tu lo savas, la Portugalana ne esas un ek = la fontolingui. > DEFIRS semblas preferar "glukoso". > > Olim, ante ke Ido = kreesis, la Franca uzis "glycose" apus "glucose". =C3=89mile > Littr=C3=A9 = mem tre forte argumentis por ta e mokis ca, ma ca divenis la maxim > uzata = vorto. "Glycose" esas nun tote obsoleta. > > Simile, quon tu opinionas pri = vorti tal quala "nevrologio" en Ido? > > Ta vorto semblas suportesar da "ne= vroso", qua esas nur FIR. > > Ni anke havas "neurono", do me ne komprenas p= ro quo ni havus "nevrologio" > vice *neurologio ecepte pro ulaspeca pseudop= refixo *nevro-* koheranta. Se > to esus pro ulaspeca desfacileso por la Rus= i, ni havus *nevrono, ka ne? > > Kun kordiala saluti, > Gilles-Philippe > >= 2017-01-05 8:51 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com [linguolis= to] < > linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>: > >> >> >> Nu, Gilles-Philippe, me pr= eferas "glikoso" (anke en mea matrala linguo, >> en qua uzesas la du formi = "glicose" e "glucose"), ma to esas nur mea >> personala prefero, evidente. = >> >> 2017-01-05 13:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >= > [linguolisto] : >> >>> >>> >>> Gon=C3=A7alo,= nu... se internacioneso ne koheras, quon selektar inter la du? >>> "glukos= o" o "glikoso"? >>> >>> 2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves= 64@gmail.com >>> [linguolisto] : >>> >>>> >>>>= >>>> Gilles-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internacioneso :-) >>>> >>>> 2= 017-01-05 2:37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com >>>> [lin= guolisto] : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gon=C3=A7al= o, danko pro la informo. Ka to signifikas, ke tu preferas kohero >>>>> vice= internacioneso? >>>>> >>>>> Nam de la vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esas p= lu apta vorto >>>>> (glikogeno, glikogenezo, e.c.). >>>>> Ma de la vidpunto= di internacioneso, *glukoso esas plu apta (DEFIRS). >>>>> La Akademio di E= speranto adoptis "glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala >>>>> Adjunto, ma pose remp= lasigis lu da "glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> = >> > > --94eb2c04127666775f05455be0e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Me ne savas, Gilles-Philippe, ka "glicose" esas plu ofte= uzata kam "glucose" en la Portugalana, o ka existas anke diferi = inter la uzado di ta vorti en Portugal e Brazilia (l'artikli Wikipedial= a en la Portugalana plu ofte skribesas da Braziliani kam da Portugalani, na= m iti esas plu multa kam ici...). Me savas nur ke, kande me esis yuno ed un= esmafoye audis la vorto en skolo, mea doceri uzis la formo "glicose&qu= ot;. Me suspektas ke lore la formo "glucose" ja existis, ma me ne= memoras audir o lektir ta formo lore. Me supozas ke nun, en universitati e= ciencala medii en Portugal e Brazilia, on preferas la formo "glucose&= quot;, forsan pro influo stranjera (precipue Angla-lingua), ma to esas nura= supozo, e me tote ne esas certa pri to. Me bone savas ke la Portugalana ne= apartenas al AFGHIR-klubo, e me mencionis ol ne por sustenar "glikoso= " en Ido, ma nur por expresar mea personala prefero en mea matrala lin= guo (en qua, exemple, on dicas "glicog=C3=A9nio" i.a.). Anke en I= do me preferas "glikoso" pro kohero e "familiala integreso&q= uot;.

Pri "nevroso" la kozo esas plu komplikita e me havas= teorio (o, plu modeste, explikiva hipotezo), ma me ankore mustas parlabora= r e rafinar ol ante prizentar ol publike. Tamen me ne savas ka me disipos m= ea tempo ed energio por parlaborar ol, lektinte certena desagreabla insinui= en recenta (e ne nur recenta) artikli, komenti e reakti... =C2=A0

20= 17-01-05 14:07 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yaho= ogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0

Gon=C3=A7alo,
Se = tu prizas kohero neinternaciona, me do povas komprenar tua vidpunto pri &qu= ot;glikoso".

La pagino pri glikoso en la Port= ugalana Wikipedio ya konfirmas ke "glicose" esas la maxim uzata e= spelo:
Tamen, quale tu lo savas, la Portugalana ne esas un ek la font= olingui. DEFIRS semblas preferar "glukoso".

<= div>Olim, ante ke Ido kreesis, la Franca uzis "glycose" apus &quo= t;glucose". =C3=89mile Littr=C3=A9 mem tre forte argumentis por ta e m= okis ca, ma ca divenis la maxim uzata vorto. "Glycose" esas nun t= ote obsoleta.

Simile, quon tu opinionas pri vorti = tal quala "nevrologio" en Ido?

Ta vorto = semblas suportesar da "nevroso", qua esas nur FIR.

=
Ni anke havas "neurono", do me ne komprenas pro quo ni= havus "nevrologio" vice *neurologio ecepte pro ulaspeca pseudopr= efixo nevro-=C2=A0koheranta. Se to esus pro ulaspeca desfacileso por= la Rusi, ni havus *nevrono, ka ne?

Kun kordiala s= aluti,
Gilles-Philippe

=
2017-01-05 8:51 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves gneves64@gmail.com= [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left:1px #ccc solid">
=C2=A0 =
=

Nu, Gilles-Philippe, me preferas "glikoso" (a= nke en mea matrala linguo, en qua uzesas la du formi "glicose" e = "glucose"), ma to esas nur mea personala prefero, evidente.

2017-01-05 13:03 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Gon= =C3=A7alo, nu... se internacioneso ne koheras, quon selektar inter la du? &= quot;glukoso" o "glikoso"?
<= br>
2017-01-05 6:16 GMT-05:00 Gon=C3=A7alo Neves = gneves64@gmail.com<= /a> [linguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=
=C2=A0
=

Gilles-Philippe, me preferas koheranta internacioneso :-)
<= div>

2017-01-05 2:= 37 GMT+00:00 Gilles-Philippe Morin gphmorin@gmail.com [linguolisto] <= linguolist= o@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=
=

Gon=C3=A7alo, danko pro la informo. Ka to sign= ifikas, ke tu preferas kohero vice internacioneso?

Nam d= e la vidpunto di kohero, "glikoso" esas plu apta vorto (glikogeno= , glikogenezo, e.c.).
Ma de la vidpunto di internacioneso, *gluko= so esas plu apta (DEFIRS).
La Akademio di Esperanto adoptis "= ;glikozo" en la Unesma Oficala Adjunto, ma pose remplasigis lu da &quo= t;glukozo" en la Okesma Oficala Adjunto.




=
=



2017-01-05 13:28 GMT-05:00 '= ;Robert C.' ido@avenue.me.uk [l= inguolisto] <linguolisto@yahoogroups.com>:
=C2=A0
=

Kara Gilles-Philippe,
=C2=A0
Segun la granda lexiko = Franca-Ido:
exprimer (tr.= ) expresar (ulo, per); (un jus) ek-presar; s'-- : expresar su, parolar.=
=C2=A0
Me supo= zas ke forsan (1) la uzo pri su esas extenso (agnoskata nur per ica exemplo= ) dil senco dil vorto, o (2) la persono expresata reprezentas o metafore es= as lua pensi (expresar su =3D expresar sua pensi), o (3) on darfas ulakaze = konsiderar persono kom kozo (gravito tiras omno, inkluzante homi).
=C2=A0
Plu desfacila es= as vua duesma problemo. L. de Beaufront e L. Couturat en lia granda lexiko:=
contredire (tr.) kontre-d= icar; se -- (soi-meme) kontre-dicar su; (mutuellement) inter-kontre-dicar.<= /span>
=C2=A0
Tamen, s= emblas a me ke vu esas justa, ke logike on povas kontre-dicar nur ulo dicit= a (me ne kontre-dicas vua aserto!). Me povas nur supozar ke ico pruvas ke, = de foyo a foyo, mem experti oblivias od altramaniere eroras.
<= div>=C2=A0
Icakaze restas problem= o: quale dicar korekte ke ulu "kontre-dicas" altru? Ni havas du s= imila vorti "demandar" e "pregar" qui diferas per ke on= demandas ulo ma on pregas ulu. Tamen, semblas esar nula verbo por "di= car" ulu.
=C2=A0
Kordiale,
Robert C.=
=C2=A0
-------= ----
=C2=A0
Gilles-Phili= ppe Morin gphmorin@= gmail.com [linguolisto] - Thu, 29 Dec 2016 19:31:51 -0500:=C2=A0=
Kara samideani,
Me havas questiono pri la transi= tiveso di du verbi.


Unesme, la verbo "expresar&= quot;.


<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">On povas expresar ulo, ma kad on povas= expresar ulu?


Me ofte lektas en moderna text= i la expresuro "expresar su", qua certe venas de plura naturala l= ingui (nome la Angla e la Franca). Ma kande me lektas la Kompleta Gramatiko= , me trovas nur "expresar (sua) idei", "expresar la tempo&qu= ot;, "expresar hezito", e.c., do nur "expresar [ulo]".<= /span>


Tamen, kande me serchis che Pesch, me trovis:=
Destruktar to quo esas justa, sana,=C2=A0pura en la maniero judikar, se= ntar, expresar su;=C2=A0(cf. koruptar)


Ka to esas korekta? Kad on povas expresar ulu=C2=A0tale quale o= n expresas ulo?
<= span style=3D"font-size:15pt">

Duesme, la verbo "kontre= dicar".


Kad on kontredicas ulu=C2=A0od ulo?


Segun Dyer, "kontredicar" esa= s fakte "kontre-dic-ar", do on komencale analizez la verbo "= dicar".


On dicas ulo=C2=A0ad ulu.= To esas quon Dyer dicas (cf. dicar). Pluse lu adjuntas:

=
Dicar sempre relatas ula objekto.=C2=A0(cf. dicar= )


Segun la Kompleta Gramatiko (sub "Komp= ozajo per prepozicioni"), on trovas co:


<= div style=3D"background-color:white">On a= tencez, ke la kompozado per prepozicioni ne chanjas la direta komplemento d= il verbo (kande ica esas transitiva): en limpida aquo, on travidas la stone= ti dil fundo; on ne travidas la aquo ipsa. Konseque l'adjektivo travide= bla povas aplikesar nur a la stoneti, e ne a la aquo ipsa; ol ne povas sign= ifikar diafana, ma nur (segun sua elementi) videbla tra. Simile on s= upervarsas aquo sur flori; quo esas supervarsita? La aquo, e ne la flori. D= o on ne darfas dicar (quale Espo) : vango supervarsita da lakrimi, ma juste= : balnita, inundita da lakrimi.


Do, logikale, s= e on dicas ulo, on anke kontredicas ulo, ka ne? Do me povas k= ontredicar aserti da ulu, ma me ne povas kontredicar la homo aser= tinta, nu, segun la supera paragrafo.


Or me trov= is la sequanta extraktaji en la Kompleta Gramatiko ipsa:
Esperant= o esas tante min imitinda pri ca punto, ke dicinte =C4=89iuj tiuj (kiuj= ), ol kontredicas su ipsa, dicante=C2=A0tiuj kelkaj (kiuj)= .
[L']ideo dil pluralo ne adjuntesas al ideo dil singular= o: ol kontredicas lu absolute.

<= div style=3D"background-color:white">Ka to e= sas ecepto, nam linguo (Esperanto) e ideo esas koncepti vice homi?
<= br>
Me pose serchis che Pesch. Yen quon me trovis:
=

dementiar: {tr} 1. Kontredicar (ulu) = kom nedicinta lo exakta. 2. Kontredicar (to quon dicas ulu) k= om ne-exakta. - FHI


Ho ve! Por la s= ama vorto on parolas pri kontredicar ulu=C2=A0e kontredicar ulo d= a ulu. Quon selectar?


Me anke trovis "su-ko= ntredici" che Pesch (cf. ironio), ta qua semblas indikar ke on = kontredicas ulu.
=

Ironie, Pesch "s= u-kontredicas" en la defini di dementiar!


En Dyer on anke trovas "su-kontre-dic-anta" e "inter-kontr= e-dic-anta".=C2=A0
=

Do, quale solvar la problemi= ?


Amikale,
Gilles-Philippe
=C2=A0

=
=